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 Kain wrote:
All a psycannon is is an assault cannon with psybolts and another firing mode. It's impressive but not game breaking.

with a higher strength, that can be taken by regular PA GK by the bucket load for cheap.

how many asasult cannons can your space marine veterans take???

10 purifiers add 4psycannons for 40 points. 5 terminators add one assault cannon for 30 points. that's GW balance for you.

Ok, let's run through the codex:

HQs: the Chaos Lord might be the best non-unique HQ in the game. If you can't work this HQ, then you need to recharge your creativity center. This thing is a bargain and is incredibly versatile.

Sorcerer: telepath is a great utility unit. Can do a ton for a unit.

Named Characters: Abby, Huron, Typhus, Ahriman, these are good units that will earn their points back most games.

5 good HQ... Um, that's a great selection. Most codices would be so lucky. Certainly not underwhelming.

Elites: terminators, plague marines, noise marines, and if you can use constraint, chosen will get their points back. I am flabbergasted that people don't like CSM Termies. They are a very solid unit.

So 3 good elites... Again, excellent, especially given the flexibility and options of the Termies.

Troops: now don't compare to other codices. All that a troop needs to do is hold objectives, be flexible, and earn back points. Both the CSM and the cultists (which don't need to be zombies) can usually do both if not all three.

Two usable troops. One that is crazy customizable, and one that is very economic.

Fast attack: the only problem with this slot is that it has three phenomenal choices. Bikes, Spawn, and Heldrake are all bargains and brutes on the table. If you're not filling the FA slot in every game and losing, that's why.

Heavy: Oblits? Good. Vindicators? Good. Defilers? (Used right, very good... Hi PA, bye).

I'm not sure what else you could want. How are people not finding good lists here? Blinders or silly expectations?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if you use FW. Fun stuff there too.

 Lobukia wrote:
Ok, let's run through the codex:

HQs: the Chaos Lord might be the best non-unique HQ in the game. If you can't work this HQ, then you need to recharge your creativity center. This thing is a bargain and is incredibly versatile.

Sorcerer: telepath is a great utility unit. Can do a ton for a unit.

Named Characters: Abby, Huron, Typhus, Ahriman, these are good units that will earn their points back most games.

5 good HQ... Um, that's a great selection. Most codices would be so lucky. Certainly not underwhelming.

Elites: terminators, plague marines, noise marines, and if you can use constraint, chosen will get their points back. I am flabbergasted that people don't like CSM Termies. They are a very solid unit.

So 3 good elites... Again, excellent, especially given the flexibility and options of the Termies.

Troops: now don't compare to other codices. All that a troop needs to do is hold objectives, be flexible, and earn back points. Both the CSM and the cultists (which don't need to be zombies) can usually do both if not all three.

Two usable troops. One that is crazy customizable, and one that is very economic.

Fast attack: the only problem with this slot is that it has three phenomenal choices. Bikes, Spawn, and Heldrake are all bargains and brutes on the table. If you're not filling the FA slot in every game and losing, that's why.

Heavy: Oblits? Good. Vindicators? Good. Defilers? (Used right, very good... Hi PA, bye).

I'm not sure what else you could want. How are people not finding good lists here? Blinders or silly expectations?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if you use FW. Fun stuff there too.

To be rather honest people don't really consider cult troops to be elites and I've rarely (actually never) seen anybody deploy Plague Marines nor Noise Marines as elites. And our termies.... eeeeh they are good at termicide? For the most part our elites are pretty bad. Now HQs? Oh heck yes chaos has a great hq selection! I don't care who you are, our list has some of the greatest hqs in the game. The only thing I can think of is maybe the Ehterial and Necron Lord beating them (oh and nids since their hq is a vital compoment of their army)

Cultists are phenominal! Marines? Eh. I would say you still need to compare. Compare them to DA for example. In every single way they are better. Whilst we are a point cheaper, we only become equally priced at 10 and cheapr when we shove 11+ in a pack. Even then this ignores the fact that these units have a bad rule compared to DA with one of the greatest rules in the game as well as another special rule. (especially since you were saying how our hq choice is possibly one of the greatest in the games as well as chaos lord being one of the best. If we can compare there but not on troops something is rather wrong)

Heavy: No to Deffie. I use him but he is overpriced for what he actually is. A battlecannon whom for some odd reason is costed at almost 200. Now replace deffie on your list with predator. It is a cheap 3 shot (one twinlinked) lascannon vehicle. Also havoc are great.

And mentioning FW really isn't that useful. Sadly a lot of competitive corners (and even friendly gamers) have the flawed perception that FW is broken. Along with that, how much FW stuff is chaos space marine oriented anyways? The only things I can remember is the big apoc units and FINALLY a drop pod.



I am dissapointed in the codex. For a variety of reasons. I do not deny this fact. There are many flaws with it. And it is still the least liked codex of the new codices to be released. This codex holds the ire of 6th edition whilst the others have died out in compliant shockingly quickly. That must attest to something.

Decimators can be used in normal games of 40k.

Sadly, that is still only one FW chaos unit in itself. Everything else they have isn't really new.

I also forgot the DP. Also very good.

Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.

But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.

 Lobukia wrote:
I also forgot the DP. Also very good.

Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.

But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.

On the DP. I would kinda say eeeeeh. It's a unit you have to make into a deathstar to make even slightly useful.

But the problem is that if we don't compare troops than what do we have? If we looked at Thousand Sons or Khornate berzerkers with no comparison well then they seem great. It is their execution in the battlefield in comparison to other units that makes the determining factor all the more important. Admittedly I have sworn to myself to not take the heldrake until my friends have weapons to take it down. Each time I deployed it neither of us had fun. I only mention troops because troops are rather important as you are required to take them. Cultists are great simply because you can take a blob of them and they are so cheap you can spend those points on better more worthwhile units.

And I ask, why is it that the Chaos codex is so heavily loathed long after its release in comparison to other 6th edidtion codices (and on a side note, I apologize if I seem rude. I don't intend to be. And frankly I concur there are some great units. Heck I went through and added some yet even then it saddens me that I cannot really build a Khornate army and a Tzeentch army is out of the question. And I also don't understand why we have daemons with marks, oblits that aren't fearless, and vehicles that cannot take marks. Along with that, it just seems it cannot represent much. Chaos is a diverse term. It is supposed to represent recently fallen members to people that went to chaos before the emperor had even been entombed. It seems to be tryng to appeal to everything but by doing so appeals to nothing. Finally, I confess I wish we had some of the capabilities of the Space Marines. Vulkan, etc. Each of them makes their playstile unique. Chaos Space Marines don't really bar making certain units troops.) In the end, I can live with this and say the fluff is still pretty good!

 Lobukia wrote:
I also forgot the DP. Also very good.

Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.

I think your missing the point with what chaos codex is and what people wanted it to be . It is a codex for a black legion army , what people wanted it to be is to have playable legion armies.
If zerkers suck then what does a World Eater get ? An item on a lord the 1kson player gets nothing , but GW hates them , so he is used to that. all the non cult marines end up with clone armies that are differen't shade of nurgle and maybe they don't want to play nurgle with plague marines being finecast.
The Demon Prince is an ok HQ as ally to demons . For csm it is a high cost flying unit that will be very alone and if you take him you won't have pms as troops ,because there wont be enough points to buy a lord .

Ahriman downright sucks. Abadon is a slow melee monster. Awesome if someone lets you get off a charge not so good when he doesnt and just like with the Demon Prince , you won't get Plaguemarines with him as troops. Tyfus is just as slow as abadon , but he is the source one of the more annoying lists out there . He costs a lot , but if someone doesn't want any friends , he probably is ok. Huron is cheap and can be a psyker and has a very nice warlord trait. Awesome dude .

And points are a problem , if someone makes a chaos list without helldrakes or plagumarines he is playing a SW light army for the same points with fewer options and the same problems and fewer counters to those problems then SW .

But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.

Yeah with helldrakes and plagumarines , I think chaos player did figure that out by now.

Makumba wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I also forgot the DP. Also very good.

Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.

I think your missing the point with what chaos codex is and what people wanted it to be . It is a codex for a black legion army , what people wanted it to be is to have playable legion armies.
If zerkers suck then what does a World Eater get ? An item on a lord the 1kson player gets nothing , but GW hates them , so he is used to that. all the non cult marines end up with clone armies that are differen't shade of nurgle and maybe they don't want to play nurgle with plague marines being finecast.
The Demon Prince is an ok HQ as ally to demons . For csm it is a high cost flying unit that will be very alone and if you take him you won't have pms as troops ,because there wont be enough points to buy a lord .

Ahriman downright sucks. Abadon is a slow melee monster. Awesome if someone lets you get off a charge not so good when he doesnt and just like with the Demon Prince , you won't get Plaguemarines with him as troops. Tyfus is just as slow as abadon , but he is the source one of the more annoying lists out there . He costs a lot , but if someone doesn't want any friends , he probably is ok. Huron is cheap and can be a psyker and has a very nice warlord trait. Awesome dude .

And points are a problem , if someone makes a chaos list without helldrakes or plagumarines he is playing a SW light army for the same points with fewer options and the same problems and fewer counters to those problems then SW .

But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.

Yeah with helldrakes and plagumarines , I think chaos player did figure that out by now.

Don't forget cheap cheap cultists and ZOMBIIIIES! So much nurgle in this list.... And that is it! It is the Black Legion. Even with them coming around claiming it is warbbands. They threw away every legion but one and then failed to even represent the Black Legion. Want to have god specific daemon weapons? Well unless you are khorne then no god specific weapon for you! Where are the rest? Where is my World Eaters hq? How do I properly represent Night Wing? Do I throw in an army of raptors? But they cannot be troops and they don't have night fighting which is considered rather fluffy of their scare and stealth tactics. I love me some Tzeentch. Yet even then it is a bad idea to even make a Tzeentch army. Mark those Space Marines I dare you. A 6+ invuln is worthless on power armour marines and frankly overpriced.

I wouldn't say Ahriman downright sucks. I would probably go along the lines of saying he is okay against armies without good anti-psyker capabilities. Granted even then that 6+ deny the witch is disgustingly unentertaining. Abbadon isn't worthless if not in close combat. Considering he gives preferred enemy to units close to him! But I will concur that a big drawback is no troop Plaguemarines.

And I concur with your statement. If we took away comparisons then we could claim that bad codices were actually phenominal! Points make a difference. Even 15 minutes can chance the fate of a game. Heck that is enough for a plasma gun.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I also forgot the DP. Also very good.

Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.

I think your missing the point with what chaos codex is and what people wanted it to be . It is a codex for a black legion army , what people wanted it to be is to have playable legion armies.
If zerkers suck then what does a World Eater get ? An item on a lord the 1kson player gets nothing , but GW hates them , so he is used to that. all the non cult marines end up with clone armies that are differen't shade of nurgle and maybe they don't want to play nurgle with plague marines being finecast.
The Demon Prince is an ok HQ as ally to demons . For csm it is a high cost flying unit that will be very alone and if you take him you won't have pms as troops ,because there wont be enough points to buy a lord .

Ahriman downright sucks. Abadon is a slow melee monster. Awesome if someone lets you get off a charge not so good when he doesnt and just like with the Demon Prince , you won't get Plaguemarines with him as troops. Tyfus is just as slow as abadon , but he is the source one of the more annoying lists out there . He costs a lot , but if someone doesn't want any friends , he probably is ok. Huron is cheap and can be a psyker and has a very nice warlord trait. Awesome dude .

And points are a problem , if someone makes a chaos list without helldrakes or plagumarines he is playing a SW light army for the same points with fewer options and the same problems and fewer counters to those problems then SW .

But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.

Yeah with helldrakes and plagumarines , I think chaos player did figure that out by now.

Don't forget cheap cheap cultists and ZOMBIIIIES! So much nurgle in this list.... And that is it! It is the Black Legion. Even with them coming around claiming it is warbbands. They threw away every legion but one and then failed to even represent the Black Legion. Want to have god specific daemon weapons? Well unless you are khorne then no god specific weapon for you! Where are the rest? Where is my World Eaters hq? How do I properly represent Night Wing? Do I throw in an army of raptors? But they cannot be troops and they don't have night fighting which is considered rather fluffy of their scare and stealth tactics. I love me some Tzeentch. Yet even then it is a bad idea to even make a Tzeentch army. Mark those Space Marines I dare you. A 6+ invuln is worthless on power armour marines and frankly overpriced.

I wouldn't say Ahriman downright sucks. I would probably go along the lines of saying he is okay against armies without good anti-psyker capabilities. Granted even then that 6+ deny the witch is disgustingly unentertaining. Abbadon isn't worthless if not in close combat. Considering he gives preferred enemy to units close to him! But I will concur that a big drawback is no troop Plaguemarines.

And I concur with your statement. If we took away comparisons then we could claim that bad codices were actually phenominal! Points make a difference. Even 15 minutes can chance the fate of a game. Heck that is enough for a plasma gun.

It's this I think that bother me most. I've had some terrible dice rolls in a game which led me to be a little underwhelmed with typhus and termis in general. But, as I started looking inwardly at my list and trying to understand exactly where I went wrong I'm just not pleased with most units. Everyone says this unit is bad that unit is unusable unless you want this or that. I'm just not sure where to go other than to nurgle for most things. Tzeentch doesn't have anything to garner his points cost for MOST units. Slaanesh is great for combat mediocre to poor for everything else. Nurgle is...nurgle and khorne is a liability because of the BRB. I'm just not sure where to take my army to feel like I can even put up a fight other than to do what everyone else is doing and take PM and lots of heldrakes. I don't really WANT to do that though and I'm working on a list with vindis bikes heldrakes normal csm's and some things to make me feel like an iron warrior...
I just feel like the "variety" is what the power of the book is SUPPOSED to be and it just fell waaaay short.

 Lobukia wrote:
Ok, let's run through the codex:

HQs: the Chaos Lord might be the best non-unique HQ in the game. If you can't work this HQ, then you need to recharge your creativity center. This thing is a bargain and is incredibly versatile.

Sorcerer: telepath is a great utility unit. Can do a ton for a unit.

Named Characters: Abby, Huron, Typhus, Ahriman, these are good units that will earn their points back most games.

5 good HQ... Um, that's a great selection. Most codices would be so lucky. Certainly not underwhelming.

Elites: terminators, plague marines, noise marines, and if you can use constraint, chosen will get their points back. I am flabbergasted that people don't like CSM Termies. They are a very solid unit.

So 3 good elites... Again, excellent, especially given the flexibility and options of the Termies.

Troops: now don't compare to other codices. All that a troop needs to do is hold objectives, be flexible, and earn back points. Both the CSM and the cultists (which don't need to be zombies) can usually do both if not all three.

Two usable troops. One that is crazy customizable, and one that is very economic.

Fast attack: the only problem with this slot is that it has three phenomenal choices. Bikes, Spawn, and Heldrake are all bargains and brutes on the table. If you're not filling the FA slot in every game and losing, that's why.

Heavy: Oblits? Good. Vindicators? Good. Defilers? (Used right, very good... Hi PA, bye).

I'm not sure what else you could want. How are people not finding good lists here? Blinders or silly expectations?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if you use FW. Fun stuff there too.

Sorry, but no. Most of that stuff is barely feasible on the table, let alone 'good'.

Sorcerer: Taking any mark forces you to pick powers from the awful chaos table. Almost everyone can pick Telepathy, so that's hardly special. No Divination.

Named Characters: Typhus is situational at best, and Ahriman will only make his points back if the enemy plays using an ouija board as a general. Abby won't fit into mot games (nor should he).

Elites: terminators are thoroughly boring and still only useful for the same combi-melta gimmick from the last edition, only worse because now they cannot be guided when they DS. No one sane would ever use the cult troops in the elite slot. Sternguard get picked even if they are not scoring. Who's lining up for non-scoring berserker or Thousand Sons? People have to hold their noses to use them when they are made troops! Chosen are rather short-ranged without their Infiltrate and get picked off easily.

Troops: The only real plus basic CSM have is being able to take double special weapons, which is the same thing as last edition. They are still hamstrung by bad Challenge rules that will make you lose your champion to Nobs, Striking Scorpion exarchs and whatnot. Cultists are serviceable, but insanely boring. I'd pay six points for each if they had a unique feel to them, like being able to be sacrificed to give your champion bonuses in combat or to fuel spells, or by letting CSM units fire into enemies they are in CC with because no one gives a crap about them. But no, challenge-happy IG rejects it is.

Heavy: Defilers are -crap-. They might give a good show against utter newbies, but come on. Mediocre WS AND BS because Gw decided that daemons who spent milllenia killing are bad at it, can't ever fire all of its weapons because one messes the others up, almost impossible to get cover for and lame AV that gets popped by missiles or even autocannons. All that for close to Land Raider cost? You can probably bring in a whole IG ally detachment for 150% of his cost.

Fast Attack: Definitely good here. No argument, though again the OP is about missed opportunities, and Warp Talons definitely qualify. Claws that rend through reality can't pierce artificer armor? Does anyone proofread this stuff?

The Daemon Prince is so bad I fear my HQs becoming one far more than a Spawn when rolling on the silly Boon table. At least my biker lord is still fast and a tarpit if he spans up, instead of a lone T5 MC on foot about to be IDed by the first railcannon, Dread or Wraithguard that strolls by.

The Daemon Prince is so bad I fear my HQs becoming one far more than a Spawn when rolling on the silly Boon table. At least my biker lord is still fast and a tarpit if he spans up, instead of a lone T5 MC on foot about to be IDed by the first railcannon, Dread or Wraithguard that strolls by.

I have the same fear, I wonder just why they wouldn't allow the unit to keep it's wargear/mutations.

Its the chassis it comesd on that raises the brow a smidge, my friend.

So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.

 MWHistorian wrote:
So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.

Better question. So I wanted to make a Tzeentch army.... Thousand Sons are bad, marking any of the troops with Tzeentch is bad. The only units it is arguably good on are creatures with an invuln of 4+ or 5+ and for the most part this is vastly inferior to Nurgle anyways.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.

Better question. So I wanted to make a Tzeentch army.... Thousand Sons are bad, marking any of the troops with Tzeentch is bad. The only units it is arguably good on are creatures with an invuln of 4+ or 5+ and for the most part this is vastly inferior to Nurgle anyways.

Actually the choices that have a 4 or 5 the Tzeentch Mark is so overpriced that it's just better to go with the +1T

 MWHistorian wrote:
So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.

So the question you should be asking is "Why to 1k sons suck?" The answer to the question is "Today's Meta".

If all the armies are lugging around lots of MEQ meltas to deal with a armor, then 1k sons actually are not as bad of a fit. They have AP3 bolts, and enjoy a 4++ to stop the melta/PG shots. The 1k sons even come with a built in bolt from the sorcerer that can hurt enemy armor.

However, the meta is exactly the opposite. Tanks are scarce. The majority of armies are xenos, so the AP3 is wasted, and anti-infantry firepower is common so the 1k sons are forced to use their 3+ vs many shots instead of the 4++ vs few shots.

The end result is that the 1k sons just can't compete in competitive play today.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.

So the question you should be asking is "Why to 1k sons suck?" The answer to the question is "Today's Meta".

If all the armies are lugging around lots of MEQ meltas to deal with a armor, then 1k sons actually are not as bad of a fit. They have AP3 bolts, and enjoy a 4++ to stop the melta/PG shots. The 1k sons even come with a built in bolt from the sorcerer that can hurt enemy armor.

However, the meta is exactly the opposite. Tanks are scarce. The majority of armies are xenos, so the AP3 is wasted, and anti-infantry firepower is common so the 1k sons are forced to use their 3+ vs many shots instead of the 4++ vs few shots.

The end result is that the 1k sons just can't compete in competitive play today.

The problem is they couldn't compete in a meta like that before in 5th edition.

The thing of the matter is, they have AP3 yes? But it's not exactly well spent AP3, you can get AP3 cheaper, more effective, and more cost-effective then the Thousand Sons would put out.

Their main problem is their slowness (and lack of overwatch), their 50+ point sorcerer, and the lack of good spells for said sorcerer (The primaris is just 'okayish') the first skill is horrible outside of a Sorcerer, the second skill is honestly good, and they can't get the third. (Which would be poor on them anyways).

They fill a Niche that is far better done elsewhere.

Their main problem is their slowness (and lack of overwatch), their 50+ point sorcerer, and the lack of good spells for said sorcerer (The primaris is just 'okayish') the first skill is horrible outside of a Sorcerer, the second skill is honestly good, and they can't get the third. (Which would be poor on them anyways).

And lack of 2 special weapons csm or plaguemarines get .

Oh and costing a metric buttload and being utterly terrible in assault, like firewarrior level bad for their points. Actually worse, at least fire warriors can overwatch like gods.

Compare this to Noise and Plague Marines and cry.

Actually with an Icon Noise Marines make Rubrics obsolete, being tougher against most shooting, arguably having a better gun due to volume of fire and ignoring cover, getting some sweet special weapons, being endlessly better in assault, oh and not being slow as crap and not derping out when the sergeant bites the dust.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The problem is they couldn't compete in a meta like that before in 5th edition.

I am not sure about that. The book came out in 6th edition, and you can't compare the way they played in 5th to how the codex/BRB changed them in 6th.
The only way you would know if if people played 5th edition armies against it.

Either way, its an academic exercise. They are a very poor matchup against all the armies you commonly see today.

I like the Chaos Book.

I hate the models for Khorne Berzerkers. Bunny ears are silly.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The problem is they couldn't compete in a meta like that before in 5th edition.

I am not sure about that. The book came out in 6th edition, and you can't compare the way they played in 5th to how the codex/BRB changed them in 6th.
The only way you would know if if people played 5th edition armies against it.

Either way, its an academic exercise. They are a very poor matchup against all the armies you commonly see today.

There's no major changes between 4th and 6th thousand sons.

Things:

Same point per model
Aspiring sorcerer is 12 points cheaper then the 4th edition dex (Aspiring Sorcerer with DoomBolt)
VOTLW for 6th.
That's it.

So you can Very Easily compare the two. Infact it's worse in 6th because of Champion of Chaos for the Aspiring Sorcerer.

 Gharron wrote:

It's this I think that bother me most. I've had some terrible dice rolls in a game which led me to be a little underwhelmed with typhus and termis in general. But, as I started looking inwardly at my list and trying to understand exactly where I went wrong I'm just not pleased with most units. Everyone says this unit is bad that unit is unusable unless you want this or that. I'm just not sure where to go other than to nurgle for most things. Tzeentch doesn't have anything to garner his points cost for MOST units. Slaanesh is great for combat mediocre to poor for everything else. Nurgle is...nurgle and khorne is a liability because of the BRB. I'm just not sure where to take my army to feel like I can even put up a fight other than to do what everyone else is doing and take PM and lots of heldrakes. I don't really WANT to do that though and I'm working on a list with vindis bikes heldrakes normal csm's and some things to make me feel like an iron warrior...
I just feel like the "variety" is what the power of the book is SUPPOSED to be and it just fell waaaay short.

I am not sure what you expect from an Iron Warriors army. They are probably the CSM faction that gained the most from the new codex and 6th edition. You can bring havocs, obliterators (who possibly originated in the Iron Warriors), vindicators and predators. The majority of the new units are geared for them as well since they are daemonic machines. The forgefiend, maulerfiend and yes, even the heldrake are the fusion of machine and daemon.

Plus in 6th edition you can take fortifications which the Iron Warriors love. Furthermore, you can take allies. This gives you access to artillery batteries from the IG.

Now to go back to the 4th edition codex. The Iron Warrior special rules allowed you to take more heavy support at the expense of fast attack and they allowed you to take a basilisk from IG. The ally rules allow you to do both now. By the way, the only reason why Iron Warriors were popular back in 4th edition was the extra heavy support choice. The reason that was the case was that it allowed you to cram in more obliterators in the army. So even when choices were bountiful, people just spammed the best unit.

The ally rules allow you to do both now. By the way, the only reason why Iron Warriors were popular back in 4th edition was the extra heavy support choice.

And not because they could take 9 obliterators as elite ?

Actually Oblits were Elites in the 3.5E book, but a 0-1 for everyone but IW's, while IW's could field 9 of them plus 4 Heavy Support choices

I think the problem lies with the fact that they have tried to write the codex to please everybody and done a gash job. no legion/cult has been done particularly well with maybe the exception of nurgle but even then it's not that amazing. The book needs more god specific units instead of one unit that can have different marks for example a predator not with las cannons but kitted out with sonic weaponry. but then we would have a huge dex. We would need multiple supplements.

Tzeentch - don't really have to explain this one really obvious elite/troop choice and hq slot weak and overcosted

Could be fixed with better psychic powers and 5++ a caster specific unit possibly fast moving

Khorne - the blood god really? Death company are better. Khorne bezerkers very limited acess to war gear over costed no decent transport. Hq on a jugga with axe is nice combo though. Other than this no options again.

Could be fixed with access to assault vehicles acess to more melee weapos or specialist weapons similar to deathwing knights possibly, something similar to Baal predator or a land raider redeemer

Slaneesh - noise marines their ok but but I feel they are overcosted for what they offer and yet again outside of noise marines nothing of use

Could be fixed making the sonic weaponry more diverse with different firing options similar to ion weaponry wouldn't be hard to fluff out different pitch and amplitude etc vehicles with sonic weaponry. Or even a drug fuelled combat unit similar to combat drugs for de

Nurgle - this is rather nice but some what expensive still I would like to see nurgle/death guard specific unit outside of plague marines, would like to see more emphasis on spreading the plague with bombs/templates nerve gas etc flesh eating nano plague weaponry bolters are tired and boring poisoned weaponry etc

Alpha legion - nothing

Iron warriors - did ok out of this warp smith, maulerfiend and forgefiend

Night lords - warp talons would be nice and fun to you use if they were a bit cheaper

Black legion abandon and his chosen I think this is underrated this is essentially a build it yourself squad that can take advantage of many combinations 5 chosen with 4 plasma guns even slanneesh squads in a rhino with a dirge caster can be good would wreck face against meq, teq and vehicles

As stated above there is so many areas to address imagine if they tried to blood angels dark angels black Templars grey knights and ultramarines back into one book

 Vaktathi wrote:
Actually Oblits were Elites in the 3.5E book, but a 0-1 for everyone but IW's, while IW's could field 9 of them plus 4 Heavy Support choices

Thanks for the correction, I did not have my old codex handy.

I think my point about the codex still stands. Iron Warriors did not gain popularity due to their awesome fluff at that time. That was just the way to spam a strong unit at the time. Even though other good options existed in the book, people took the strongest one.

bogalubov wrote:

Thanks for the correction, I did not have my old codex handy.

I think my point about the codex still stands. Iron Warriors did not gain popularity due to their awesome fluff at that time. That was just the way to spam a strong unit at the time. Even though other good options existed in the book, people took the strongest one.

And SW or GK were popular because of their awesome fluff? no army gets popular because of fluff .

Khorne - the blood god really? Death company are better. Khorne bezerkers very limited acess to war gear over costed no decent transport. Hq on a jugga with axe is nice combo though. Other than this no options again.

my friend had this crazy idea to change how demonic possession works . Nurgle would repair stuff, Slanesh could use its warp amps just like wave serpents can use their shields , tzeench stuff make the tanks lvl 1 sorc and khorn stuff would change their transports in to melee units. He also wanted two different possession . One was a normal mark with some extra rules . the other was suppose to be a high cost upgrade that would change vehicles in to MC , where wounds and toughness would be set by how high the av of the vehicle was . The vehicles would also lose transport capacity and BS lowered .

To fix Mark of Tzeentch I would just return it to a 5+ invulnerable if you didn't have one to begin with. Same cost. Then it's roughly even with mark of nurgle. Lower the cost on things that already have an invulnerable.

Thousand Sons should have relentless instead of slow and purposeful while their Sorceror is alive. 22 points a model seems more fair for what they do. Ahriman and Tzeentch marked Sorcerors should get access to divination.

I would improve the Lore of Tzeentch by making Tzeentch's Firestorm have an AP of D6 instead of -. Boon of Mutation should either not cause a hit or not be able to turn you into a spawn, both is overkill, especially at S4, I'd lean towards getting rid of the hit. Breath of Change should be warp charge 1 considering Doombolt is better than it.

Oh and Scrolls of Magnus are kind of balls, I might think about them at 25 points but 45 is absurd for one mastery level. One mastery level with a random discipline and you can't take the primaris. Oh and rolling to get your power kills you.

Makumba wrote:

And SW or GK were popular because of their awesome fluff? no army gets popular because of fluff .

Exactly.

The OP started the thread because he doesn't like heldrakes, obliterators or nurgle. Because of that he feels that the chaos codex is under powered and uncreative. He would like to have more options that do not involve taking any of those options.

Throughout the thread I have been trying to show that the codex is not underpowered. It is of medium strength and that the problems that people have with it are not unique to the CSM codex. As part of that proof, I was brought up the supposed salad days of chaos space marines when choices were abundant and everything was strong. During those times people still gravitated only to a select number of units. Things are no worse than they have been before, that's what I am trying to get across.