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 gpfunk wrote:
Hardly underwhelming. Maybe compared to shiny new Tau or Eldar they seem less shiny, but they're still a great codex.

There are so many options (Barring a few atrocious ones) and allow you a lot of flexibility. I couldn't have asked for more from a codex. It has enough competitive and interesting units to keep me trying new combinations til the next one comes out. You just gotta get a handle on it. Terminators, Bikers, Huron, Spawn, Juggerlords, Maulerfiends, Havocs, Obliterators, Cult Troops. There's a plethora of stuff. Use it all before you go out and say the codex is underwhelming.

Cult troops

Nurgle and Slaanesh are the only choice, and even then Nurgle is Better

JuggerLord

A Specific god choice.

Terminators

I guess if you enjoy termi-cide, sure.

Maulerfiends, Havocs, Obliterators,

Maulerfiends will not be used, you desperately need the range unless your playing a specific list type, not to mention rather vulnerable.

That list is far smaller then the entire book as well, a small list out of entire sections.

Who said anything about suicide terminators? Put them in a land raider, you dont have to just herp derp drop three with combi meltas. Try running 8 or so barebones as backup dancers for Typhus and march him across the board, Or use them to scour a flank, you just dont have to throw a minimum amount at someone.

He listed several options, the maulerfiend in specific is cheap as crap for what it does and will soak some firepower.. Oblits and havocs are still two of the best HS options amongst all MEQ units.

Over and over again its Chaos players wanting every option to be tourney smashing forgetting no book ever has done this, even the vaunted 3.5 abomination that should of never seen the light of day how unbalanced it was.

Not every book will have every option win, even in the new books most of them get lost in the shuffle. Every book has the one or two options a slot which are just 'better'. The competitive Tau player will never see skyrays, vespids or pirahnas unless they just really work at it (much like a Khorne Berzerker player or 1k son player). Likewise Eldar players wanting to win will never touch storm guardians or half of the aspects.

Who said anything about suicide terminators? Put them in a land raider, you dont have to just herp derp drop three with combi meltas. Try running 8 or so barebones as backup dancers for Typhus and march him across the board, Or use them to scour a flank, you just dont have to throw a minimum amount at someone.

I used Combi-Plasma myself, works effectively, also that idea sounds absolutely horrible to do in that you are essentially asking the enemy to direct their firepower at this squad, and against Eldar, or Tau, or anyone who would just laugh at this configuration is asking for death.

He listed several options, the maulerfiend in specific is cheap as crap for what it does and will soak some firepower..

In a very contested slot, it won't see the light of day in most general lists.

Oblits and havocs are still two of the best HS options amongst all MEQ units.

Wouldn't say all MEQ, but they do their work very fine.

Over and over again its Chaos players wanting every option to be tourney smashing forgetting no book ever has done this, even the vaunted 3.5 abomination that should of never seen the light of day how unbalanced it was.

Not asking for this, asking for things to be useful at the least, and at the least the 3.5 was the most customizable of all the books and gave decent light towards all options, imbalanced as it was, nor is any chaos players asking to be Top Tier, most of us just want our god specific/unspecific options to be useful. Not shoveled off because Kelly has no idea how to balance a book without swinging about half towards the "Never use list" and including his "Must have!" options.

The juggerlord is a god-specific choice. So? It's still part of the codex.

Otherwise, the only reason CSM looks weak is because you're dismissing their best units with nothing but the power of assertion (Maulerfiends are bad because you'll never see them played?). If you have a bad attitude about them, of course they're going to look bad.

It doesn't mean they are, though.

Good: Havocs, Heldrake,Obliterators, Bikes, MoN CSM, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Predators,

EVERYTHING ELSE is sitational at best and will tend to lose out based on lack of points or lack of FOC slots.

Disappointments: Chosen, Mutilator, Possessed, Berzerkers, 1000 Sons, Talons, Defiler, ForgeFiends, MaulerFiends.

Chosen- Lost the infiltrate ability - the only reason to take them
Mutilators- Can I have more Slow & Purposful CC Units so I can have a totally useless army?

Possessed - Random high priced units can I have more?

Berzerkers - OOOH can I have some dedicated CC troops at 2 a pop, lose an attack vs last edition, get edition screwed as far as CC, and throw me a bone by an overpriced chain axe that only slaughters tau and scouts that I already wipe the floor with.

1000 Sons - High priced? Check Worthless in HTH? Check.
AP 3 weapons are the one bone.

Talons - High priced only effect AC3. Good.

Fiends - good job making them vehicles and then hand evey other codex MCs.

Defilers - High priced. More worthless than a soulgrinder (and higher priced) loses out to oblits, havocs and predators

Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.

For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.

Maulerfiends are far from a let down.

And warp talons also have demon, which means they're a 3+ 5++, and fear won't ALWAYS fail. They can't tackle every target in the game, but that doesn't make them straight-away worthless. Meanwhile, if you can't figure out how a model with a 3+ 4++ with Ap3 small arms can be useful, then you're lacking creativity.

Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.

I like how people are suggesting all these nifty units like warp talons and thousand sons.

At the end of the day you're dropping ~30 points into a T4 3+ save. Tsons are slow and encumbered by a worthless sorceror (god of magic has the worst spells lolololol). Allaros thinks I'm uncreative because I don't want to plod my SnP points sink upfield while they get shredded by weight of fire and cost twice as much as the standard marines, while taking up an elite choice. Oh yeah, I can always take a Tzeench HQ... LOL. I suppose creative players would be able to find a plethora of other uses for such a dynamic unit.

Warp talons are alright but Raptors are cheaper and frankly, more likely to actually do something. WT can appear, blind a unit, then stand around to get shot to pieces @ 30ppm.

The new fiends are alright, but weren't really needed. The Defiler is basically both fiends in one model, with better guns, more HP, and only 20pts more than a vanilla Forgefiend.

 Ailaros wrote:

Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.

Being something like 10 and 1 playing CSM added to the fact I refuse to own a heldrake. I bow to your assessment.

The units I listed as disappointments are just that. Most are still situationally useable but they all lose out to more cost effective units.
For example I can find uses for warp talons and raptors but terminators, heldrakes and bikers give me more bang for the buck.

1000 sons and berzerkers in a vacuum aren't too bad but they severely limit flexibility compared to EC and PM. If I can live without fearless, CSMs are pretty good for their cost. Add to that I have to use an HQ slot to make them troops and sorry never.

 Ailaros wrote:
Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.

For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.

Maulerfiends are far from a let down.

And warp talons also have demon, which means they're a 3+ 5++, and fear won't ALWAYS fail. They can't tackle every target in the game, but that doesn't make them straight-away worthless. Meanwhile, if you can't figure out how a model with a 3+ 4++ with Ap3 small arms can be useful, then you're lacking creativity.

Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.

Sure, they can be useful..In very specific situations, and not exactly close to being good at it for various reasons, and are outshone by far more basic, reliable things.

Thousand Sons: Hindered because of a 50+ point tax in the sorcerer, not to mention the CSM lore of tzeentch isn't that good for it and so the sorcerer isn't that great, not to mention slow and purposeful means they can't even defend themselves with overwatch should they move, not to mention they do not increase the power of their unit despite costing more then a standard marine, and dies like a standard marine.

Warp Talons: Many conflicting rules not to mention weaknesses. Blind if they land nearby, but they have no control over scatter, not to mention blind being a test within a short (6") range that can be shrugged off by high I units and is completely useless against other armies. They are easily shot at targets as they move forward on the field, and their 5++ survival isn't exactly critical when they die to small arms fire just as easily as marines.

Maulerfiends: Hindered by being an AV12 walker, this thing can have the HP stripped from it before it reaches combat, and in most cases will have to deal with krak grenades up close and personal stripping it away.

Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.

I'm not exactly sure you've played CSM aside from seeing things in a vacuum.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.

For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.

Sure, they can be useful..In very specific situations, and not exactly close to being good at it for various reasons, and are outshone by far more basic, reliable things.

What basic things do what a maulerfiend does better than a maulerfiend?

I mean, the last game I watched, I saw a maulerfiend take down a land raider with average rolling in a single charge, and then kill two of the terminators that came after it in close combat. It doubled its points cost in about 30 seconds. Given that it can reliably do this kind of damage to non-THSS terminators and vechicles of all kinds but fliers, and against monstrous creatures that don't have a lot of attacks in CC, it hardly seems like that specific of a situation that it's useful in.

Furthermore, again, what "basic units" do this kind of work for cheaper and more reliably?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Thousand Sons: Hindered because of a 50+ point tax in the sorcerer, not to mention the CSM lore of tzeentch isn't that good for it and so the sorcerer isn't that great, not to mention slow and purposeful means they can't even defend themselves with overwatch should they move, not to mention they do not increase the power of their unit despite costing more then a standard marine, and dies like a standard marine.

If by "sorcerer tax", you mean "gets a psyker in every squad", then I guess it's a tax... but not a bad one.

And I'd like to see 1ksons die like "standard marines" against baleflamers or vindicator cannons or plasma spam. Regular marines die instantly in close combat, while 1ksons have just short of stormshield durability in a squad that contains a force weapon. 1ksons only look bad if you ignore literally everything they have and only concentrate on the fact that they have a 3+ save. If you do that, you're missing the point of 1ksons, not that 1ksons are bad.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Warp Talons: Many conflicting rules not to mention weaknesses. Blind if they land nearby, but they have no control over scatter, not to mention blind being a test within a short (6") range that can be shrugged off by high I units and is completely useless against other armies. They are easily shot at targets as they move forward on the field, and their 5++ survival isn't exactly critical when they die to small arms fire just as easily as marines.

Once again, the fact that you don't seem to appreciate what an invul save is isn't a failure of the unit, it's a failure of perspective. I'd love it if all of my units came with a free 5+ cover save that always worked, even in close combat.

And yeah, warp talons aren't the best thing in the codex, especially if you follow the codex's terrible advice of using them as a deepstrike unit. As a unit that has a 24" threat range with a huge pile of rerollable Ap3 attacks, though, they can make a good counterattack unit.

Also, I don't get how, on the one hand, you're saying that an invul save is bad because they die like normal marines, and then turn around and say that Ap3 weapons are bad, despite the fact that they ignore marine armor saves - something which invul saves are patently useful against. Either lightning claws are good, and so must be invul saves, or lightning claws are bad, and so must be Sv3+.

We're not talking about guardsmen or cultists here.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Maulerfiends: Hindered by being an AV12 walker, this thing can have the HP stripped from it before it reaches combat, and in most cases will have to deal with krak grenades up close and personal stripping it away.

It can have AP stripped, but it also has a 5++, can make use of cover without being hindered by it in the movement phase, only has to weather a single turn of fire before it gets its job done, and can HEAL losses to its hull points. Hardly sounds hindered to me.

And krak grenades? 10 WS4 models armed with krak grenades causes .73 HP in close combat per turn, which the maulerfiend has a 1/3ds chance to heal for a total of about .5 HP lost per round of combat. That's 6 rounds of combat that the marines in question have to survive against powerfist and free meltagun attacks. Plus, those marines cost way more than the maulerfiend...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I'm not exactly sure you've played CSM aside from seeing things in a vacuum.

Ad Hominem and Ad Auctoritatem never flatter anybody's arguments.

It could be that I'm biased against them, because in most cases what I'm fighting is mostly Eldar, IG, and Tau, generally things with plenty of S8+ shooting, it other meta's they might be successful for maulerfiends, but seeing it splattered apart because of massive IG fire isn't exactly conclusive to my thoughts on it.

As for Thousand sons, you get an ineffective psyker, you can luck out and get bolt of change, but the primaris and it's 1 are a number to deal with, not to mention being slow, easily killed marines. Is AP3 good? Sure, but at the same time you don't see people clamoring to take Stormtroopers because of it. And baleflamers aren't a threat to Thousand sons? Probably not, but yet they'll still die to mass fire from everything else, while being unable to get in range to fire their weapons.

I don't think Chaos Space Marine players have ever been satisfied with their current codex, even less than Sisters players have been.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't think Chaos Space Marine players have ever been satisfied with their current codex, even less than Sisters players have been.

I think I'm still a bit bitter since my Sonic Choir got entirely invalidated by the 4th edition dex. Hoping for a return to it with a Slaanesh Supplement so I can get Blastmasters on my Helbrutes again, as well as my Havocs and Preds.

Generally the Chaos Codex tends to favor specific things now, 4th had Plague Marines and Lash princes, and 6th now has Heldrakes, Plague marines, and plague cultists...Really a favor for nurgle seems to be the theme, with some slightly good Slaanesh things. (Cheap Noise marines! Which is actually pretty decent and good )

 Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.

For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.

Sure, they can be useful..In very specific situations, and not exactly close to being good at it for various reasons, and are outshone by far more basic, reliable things.

What basic things do what a maulerfiend does better than a maulerfiend?

I mean, the last game I watched, I saw a maulerfiend take down a land raider with average rolling in a single charge, and then kill two of the terminators that came after it in close combat. It doubled its points cost in about 30 seconds. Given that it can reliably do this kind of damage to non-THSS terminators and vechicles of all kinds but fliers, and against monstrous creatures that don't have a lot of attacks in CC, it hardly seems like that specific of a situation that it's useful in.

What is an "anecdote" for $200, Alex.
My first game, I blew up a Maulerfiend with an Lascannon from a havoc, quadrupling its points in 10 seconds. Therefore Maulerfiends are bad.

And I'd like to see 1ksons die like "standard marines" against baleflamers or vindicator cannons or plasma spam. Regular marines die instantly in close combat, while 1ksons have just short of stormshield durability in a squad that contains a force weapon. 1ksons only look bad if you ignore literally everything they have and only concentrate on the fact that they have a 3+ save. If you do that, you're missing the point of 1ksons, not that 1ksons are bad.

They die like standard Marines to bolters, lasguns, all of the basic weapons of every faction. Their worst matchups by far are horde armies and mech. They're only good against Marines out in the open and that's fairly rare.

And yeah, warp talons aren't the best thing in the codex, especially if you follow the codex's terrible advice of using them as a deepstrike unit. As a unit that has a 24" threat range with a huge pile of rerollable Ap3 attacks, though, they can make a good counterattack unit.

Also, I don't get how, on the one hand, you're saying that an invul save is bad because they die like normal marines, and then turn around and say that Ap3 weapons are bad, despite the fact that they ignore marine armor saves - something which invul saves are patently useful against. Either lightning claws are good, and so must be invul saves, or lightning claws are bad, and so must be Sv3+.

We're not talking about guardsmen or cultists here.

Really? A 160 point counter-attack unit? And that's with only 5 talons base. They're even worse against basic weapons than Thousand Sons are and that's saying something. Not to mention that their upgrades are very expensive and you now have guys that are more expensive than Terminators and significantly less durable.

It can have AP stripped, but it also has a 5++, can make use of cover without being hindered by it in the movement phase, only has to weather a single turn of fire before it gets its job done, and can HEAL losses to its hull points. Hardly sounds hindered to me.

And krak grenades? 10 WS4 models armed with krak grenades causes .73 HP in close combat per turn, which the maulerfiend has a 1/3ds chance to heal for a total of about .5 HP lost per round of combat. That's 6 rounds of combat that the marines in question have to survive against powerfist and free meltagun attacks. Plus, those marines cost way more than the maulerfiend...

The Maulerfiend is pretty big, getting cover for it won't really be all that easy. You also seem to be overestimating an AV12 vehicle with a 5+ invulnerable save.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't think Chaos Space Marine players have ever been satisfied with their current codex, even less than Sisters players have been.

I feel that a lot of players were satisfied with the older codices. The big problem is that Chaos is so all-encompassing and has so much written about it that people expect a lot more. Which is fine. I refuse to purchase anything Chaos-related from Gee-dubs after they released this book. It has some good parts but ultimately it's just, as Vaktathi said, a White Dwarf update to the 4th edition codex.

A general feeling about the book is that it's underwhelming. It's not incapable, but it feels like it's just missing..something on the table. Additionally, in terms of fluff/flexibility/etc, it still is only marginally better than the utter failure of the last book. "Missed opportunity" is something you hear a lot.

You can definitely win some games with it, but much of the book doesn't see the table for a reason, and it largely feels like a White Dwarf addendum to the previous book, with the core army still really heavily designed around a 4th edition mindset.

 Ailaros wrote:


And I'd like to see 1ksons die like "standard marines" against baleflamers or vindicator cannons or plasma spam. Regular marines die instantly in close combat, while 1ksons have just short of stormshield durability in a squad that contains a force weapon. 1ksons only look bad if you ignore literally everything they have and only concentrate on the fact that they have a 3+ save. If you do that, you're missing the point of 1ksons, not that 1ksons are bad.

See, now you're ignoring what they don't have, and focusing on what they do have. Thing is, why waste your vindi/baleflamer on a target like Tsons when you can fry the rest of the army and leave the footslogging Tsons to get hosed by small arms.

What Tsons have: Decent bolters, a psyker with a lackluster discipline, a forceweapon (don't cast if you plan on using it though). 5++ save. 76% more expensive than standard CSM. Unlike standard CSM they don't take special/heavy weapons, have probably the worst icon available to them, take up an elite slot (unless you waste your HQ slot taking a Tzeench sorc) can't run, can't sweep, can't overwatch after moving.

Seems to me the 'point' of Tsons is to get the codex up to the required ~110 pages.

It seems so many people missed it they're sitting on store shelves

Seriously though, Thousand Sons can hardly be seen as a decent unit. While the invul save and AP3 bolters are nice, massed AP3 is easier obtained and better delivered by other units, while against the majority of attacks directed at them, they still die like normal marines, and normal marines will live just as long against most attacks if you stick 'em in cover, or nearly so.

There's a reason you don't see them in competitive army lists. It's not that people "missed the point" or that there's some mysterious "Diamond in the Rough" aspect to them, no, they're just plain too expensive and their primary role is better achieved by other units and typically at a lower price point.

So I am assuming that this is a codex to pass by then.

Nope.

It's a solid little book. It can even be powerful if you focus solely on the cheap/powerful stuff (Helldrakes, bikes, plague marines, nurgle oblits, autocannon havocs, spawn and FNP slaanesh troops).

The main thing is that it leaves so many iconic units out in the cold that many people can't find a good fluffy/competitive balance. Want to play Thousand Sons? You're boned. World Eaters? Boned. Night Lords? So boned. Iron Warriors? Maybe not boned, but decidedly underwhelming.

Really the codex isn't bad it's just not good either. Chaos players are still spoiled from all the diversity and love we got back in 3rd (God I miss my coked out lords and sonic termies) and add in the fact all the cool new rules and units in the last 3 codexes while we got some pretty lame ones by comparison (Zoids, derpadactyle, raptors with lightning claws... Woo... Hoo). So ya the codex can be competitive, ya most if the units are good/useable, but over all its just bland an mediocre IMO. Not enough changed from 4th to third, psychic powers blow, special rules are fun but not competitive, new units are mediocre, add it all together and it's a meh dex.

I find it to have quite a few options, but I'm coming from orks, so take that for what it's worth.

I play Slaanesh, with absolutely nothing from the "ONLY UNITS TO USE1!!" list (mostly just outfitted marines, Havoks and Lord with SoS) and I've been winning consistently, even against long time vets.

Boring advice, but I find it pays to focus on synergy between scoring units, ranged killing, close combat distractions; just picking the most OP units and lumping them together won't get you a fun or winny team.

J0kerrMT wrote:
So I am assuming that this is a codex to pass by then.

Unless you play Nurgle, save your money and use it on something else.

I've never experienced the older CSM dex's, I don't play fluff armies either. But I can see that this book is very narrow. I play competitive, I play to win. So 50% or more of the book is not useful to me. All the missed opportunities and head scratching on the units make me say "WTF" all the time at the book. Some units are so meta specific they do not make the cut for a list.

I guess I'll just have to use my small handful of units that are good to continue to pwn noobs. Maybe supplements can give it a boost in variety.

 Goat wrote:
I've never experienced the older CSM dex's, I don't play fluff armies either. But I can see that this book is very narrow. I play competitive, I play to win. So 50% or more of the book is not useful to me. All the missed opportunities and head scratching on the units make me say "WTF" all the time at the book. Some units are so meta specific they do not make the cut for a list.

I guess I'll just have to use my small handful of units that are good to continue to pwn noobs. Maybe supplements can give it a boost in variety.

This! This is EXACLTY how I feel maybe not so much that I have to win but I at least want to put up a fight. Played death wing at 1500 and MAYBE killed 3 termis because everything we have is the janky red headed step child of something else. I feel like we're the orks of the human races. We have a little of everything but its all broken and only works because we make it so. Most of the hq's that HAVE to make a challenge won't win said challenge...its an extreme handicap. I know like orks our stuff is cheaper than the equivalent units but spamming more guys just doesn't sit will with the whole "we are 10k years old but kill 2 guys in our squad and watch us run like guardsman" idea. I mean paying 20+ points to be fearless? Just silly for a guy who's supposed to have fought a million battles and burned worlds...
The book has redeeming qualities but I just don't see where our cc units are and every kind of delivery system for them is a major risk at best which we have to concede some sort of object be it first blood or the move and then the transport gets blown up and our non fearless unit footslogs it for the next three turns hoping to do something worthwhile.

There are so many options (Barring a few atrocious ones) and allow you a lot of flexibility. I couldn't have asked for more from a codex. It has enough competitive and interesting units to keep me trying new combinations til the next one comes out. You just gotta get a handle on it. Terminators, Bikers, Huron, Spawn, Juggerlords, Maulerfiends, Havocs, Obliterators, Cult Troops. There's a plethora of stuff. Use it all before you go out and say the codex is underwhelming.

In fact, it does NOT offer you flexibility. That is an illusion based on seeing all of the potential units in the codex as a whole without trying to place them into a list together. Once you put them in a list you quickly see that the book is fairly points restrictive and tends to either force you to play an army that does one thing very well (but will have several intensely bad, almost auto-lose match-ups), OR to play at a rediculously high points level. At around 2500pts with a double force org it might actually be the strongest book of the new edition, but how often are you going to see that game? The person who mentioned having issues putting together a TAC list is spot on IMO. TAC lists (again, IMO) are tough in general in 6th, but are just that much more difficult with the Chaos dex. It's also not the kind of codex where you can build a list and then tweak with one or two new items or units as you go to really fine tune the list. You generally end up building an army (talking about competitive play here) around one or two gimmicks or special units. Everything else is just a delivery system for said gimmicks, so you can't just tack things on like you might in a Tau or Dark Angel list. If what you had didn't work, there's a really good chance you need to go back to the drawing board.

Even in terms of fluffy play this book falls down for me. I remember the glory days of second edition where I could generally have a really fun, fluffy army without making too many sacrifices. Not so with this book. There are certainly lots of fun bits, but I can't help but notice how much more fun those bits could have been with just a little more work.

I love my Khorne Lord on Juggernaut.

A perfect example of a missed opportunity imo. They moved cult units from troops to elites, then, in order to hamfist them back into being "troops", they re-introduced the "If your warlord has x mark then those cult units count as troops" mechanic. They then went on to make the lords really really good, and the cult troops questionable at best. So there's not nearly as much incentive as there SHOULD be to make them troops with your warlord (Nurgle, as always, being the one possible exception )

I definitely think the CSM codex got better; just look at your options for cheap Chaos Marines; you can field a lot of bodies if you want,

Cheap? You mean exactly like Dark Angels only MORE expensive and not as good? If so, then yes, "cheap".

with the options for cc weapons, or swapping out Bolters even (if you want). That's pretty epic in the way of customizabiliy.

So you can take cc weapons, or not and that's "epic customizability". I would have to again disagree. It's another perfect example of the kind of wtf decision making that defines this codex. "Sweet, we can take cc weapons! Oh wait, cc is terrible in this edition .... and we have no affordable/reliable assault vehicle ... damn" Of course you COULD pay for VotLW. In fact, you may as well since Kelly put in all the hard work of lowering our LD stat just so he could jam that new "option" down our throats in order for us to get back the point he took. you know, the option that makes the CSM better at CC (see previous comment about cc. Do we see a pattern developing?)... ugh

Really though, my biggest issue with this book is that it has absolutely ZERO business being a 6th ed book. It does nothing to take advantage of, riff off of, or even fit in with the 6th ed rule set. In fact, many of the new units we got are actually penalized by the new rule set (see Warp Talons, Mutilators, DA, etc). When you're playing a "brand new codex" that would have fit in perfectly with 4th edition with almost no changes, there is a serious issue imo. It's beyond a study in mediocrity. Is it the worst codex ever? No. But it's also the first CSM codex in 4 editions that has had me shelf my CSM before the edition ended. Tau, DA, and Demons are just so much more fun and offer me more entertaining game play from books that just make so much more sense.

I dont like it. It's just as bad as the last book and just as boring and bland.

All of the new units i think look stupid - dragobots, dinobots and hellbrute. Why couldnt they put in a normal chaos dreadnought too? Hellbrute is derpy.

The book basically forces you to just slap on random marks everywhere even if it doesnt make sense for what you're playing. If you dont take the best mark youre gimping yourself. Why not give a bonus or options for legions that dont use marks?

The marks system REALLY sucks too. I was shocked to see they didnt redo it or change it all. Exact same crap from the last book. Are they that short on creativity it's the best they can come up with?

Atleast put in something for legion specific. Like come on, just a few pages. Give nightlords raptors as troops choices, ironwarriors better tank or whatever, atleast do something!

Once again, the fact that you don't seem to appreciate what an invul save is isn't a failure of the unit, it's a failure of perspective. I'd love it if all of my units came with a free 5+ cover save that always worked, even in close combat.

And yeah, warp talons aren't the best thing in the codex, especially if you follow the codex's terrible advice of using them as a deepstrike unit. As a unit that has a 24" threat range with a huge pile of rerollable Ap3 attacks, though, they can make a good counterattack unit.

Also, I don't get how, on the one hand, you're saying that an invul save is bad because they die like normal marines, and then turn around and say that Ap3 weapons are bad, despite the fact that they ignore marine armor saves - something which invul saves are patently useful against. Either lightning claws are good, and so must be invul saves, or lightning claws are bad, and so must be Sv3+.

We're not talking about guardsmen or cultists here.

Like the man said, those are all fine points when you're looking at them in a vacuum (I have a kit-bashed squad of Khorne marked Warp Talons in my non-competitive World Eaters army), but in reality, you're paying a lot of points for something that's competing for a FOC slot against (arguably) the three best units in the codex in terms of Heldrakes, Nurgle Bikers, and Spawn.

On pure, anecdotal evidence from having used them in many many games I can tell you that the extra abilities you are paying for (like "blind") tend to be useless which makes them of questionable utility in terms of points efficiency. At the end of the day, Warp Talons are a very expensive "new" unit that has a mechanic based on deep striking very close to an enemy unit in order to fire off its special ability and get into cc. All of this in an edition where you cannot charge into cc on the turn you arrive via deep-strike and in a codex that gives them no reliable way to avoid deep-strike scatter/mishap. No thanks.

If the starting post is true and CSM are that bad... That explains why I always crush my CSM playing brother.

I agree with the previous posts...... The book is just meh....

Silly rules regarding challenges...
Stupid Dinobots...
Dark Apostle and Warpsmith that should be in Elites...
No option to build the really interesting legions...
Bezerkers are laughable...
Thousand Sons are poop...
Hellbrute??? ITS A DREADNOUGHT - and always will be.
Have to use Abbadon to take chosen as troops (I hate this guy)

No way to do clever things like make Bikes / Raptors / Terminators troops....Unlike Codex Marines / Dark Angels / Blood Angels........ so basically you are fine if you wanna use the false emperors lackeys!

No legion specific stuff - i.e. word bearers, alpha legion, night lords, iron warriors...

Sigh.

I packed my boys away in the KR's and perhaps they will see some love when the next codex comes out....

A missed opportunity to sell a load of models really