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So I urge people to go out and try some units that are considered great. Try to find a way to use them. If you still don't like the codex, you can sit out this version until the next update in 5-6 years. It's just not likely that they will give you everything you want at that point either.

I'm not exactly planning on running my mono-slaanesh list as a nurgle anytime soon, though I've had better results with adding in some daemons, which shows a bit that they can actually increase the power of CSM.

Though does anyone know if the D3 Infiltrate rule works on battle brothers?

Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.

Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?

But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.

And I suppose trying to type a snappy quip is easier than actually READING the very thing you quoted. I shall repeat it for you.

"Multiple NEW units". Read that, let it sink in and get back to me when you see what you did wrong.


Now, let's address why your "idea" doesn't work. Since IC's can't join a infiltrating unit, you have to hope for rolling two infiltrators for Huron's warlord ability (assuming you're not also trying to infiltrate Huron in which case you'd need 3). So flaw right there. You have to rely on hope. So what happens when you roll a one? As already mentioned, the cheapest possible configuration for your plan is already very expensive. Now you've rolled a one and your berserkers are on their own and your Khorne lord just lost his escort. While we're talking about it, why would you run a Khorne Lord on Jugger with the berserkers? He's so much faster it feels like you're hamstringing him. It helps illustrate one of my other points as well. Because of how this book was put together, you're pretty much creating a core "gimmick" (by gimmick I don't mean abusing rules but rather a main unit or core unit to your list that has a very specific job to do) and the rest of the list is pretty much just a delivery system for that core unit. So here, your "gimmick" would be the jugger lord/berserkers. That combo would have to do one heck of a lot of damage to not be a complete anchor around the army's neck, and would STILL need a lot of help from supporting units.In this case, your "gimmick" is crazy expensive, is based heavily on luck, and will fail far more often than it succeeds. Anyway, point is, no. Not really a solution.

So, TL/DR;

Common sense says hello.

For the most part my argument has not been to champion the chaos codex as the end all, be all of codexes. I've tried to show that the codex is on similar power levels to other codexes from 6th edition and that the world is not falling.

Chaos as a whole is by far bottom of the barrel of the new books and will continue to sink. The reason the sky is not falling is because we also have a few (actually two maybe three) units so powerfull that the rest of the book could easily not have been published. So basically, Codex NurgleDrake is awesome (but boring as hell) and Codex everything else? No thanks.

So I urge people to go out and try some units that are considered great. Try to find a way to use them. If you still don't like the codex, you can sit out this version until the next update in 5-6 years. It's just not likely that they will give you everything you want at that point either.

As for assault units being difficult to use. That applies to everyone. Not just chaos. This is a shooty edition, just like the last one was, but even worse.

I had zero expectations for this book, I pre-ordered it and have played it since the day it came out. I am still disappointed with it. I have played Chaos since second edition and have nearly 15000 points worth of stuff so trust me when I say that I have run many many lists with the book. You can try as hard as you want to "find uses" for things (and what does it say when even you who appears to be rooting for the book have to use language like that) but nothing is going to change the fact that, as I said before, this book is a series of half-finished thoughts.

As far as "getting everything I want" - All I want is a well thought out book that makes sense and does NOT punish me for using it. If they can't deliver that then something is very very wrong.

Yes, assault is hard for everyone, but my biggest gripe is that not everyone got multiple NEW units based around that mechanic AND still no good way to use them.

Righteous Zeal was updated for 6th edition and promptly ruined our last decent troops choice. Templars can only snap fire Quadguns and Icarus lascannons if they take a single casualty in the firing unit. Righteous Zeal was supposed to be an advantage; the changes in 6th ed turned it into a yoke.

A fair point, but again, you're looking at a single rule that got fired out as a quick update and backfired (and I do agree that it was bad). It's still not the same as an entire codex coming out and causing similar issues right out of the gate IMO.

AW - newest FAQ means you can fire a quad / icarus at full BS, even if you move.

Now, let's address why your "idea" doesn't work. Since IC's can't join a infiltrating unit, you have to hope for rolling two infiltrators for Huron's warlord ability (assuming you're not also trying to infiltrate Huron in which case you'd need 3). So flaw right there. You have to rely on hope. So what happens when you roll a one? As already mentioned, the cheapest possible configuration for your plan is already very expensive. Now you've rolled a one and your berserkers are on their own and your Khorne lord just lost his escort. While we're talking about it, why would you run a Khorne Lord on Jugger with the berserkers? He's so much faster it feels like you're hamstringing him. It helps illustrate one of my other points as well. Because of how this book was put together, you're pretty much creating a core "gimmick" (by gimmick I don't mean abusing rules but rather a main unit or core unit to your list that has a very specific job to do) and the rest of the list is pretty much just a delivery system for that core unit. So here, your "gimmick" would be the jugger lord/berserkers. That combo would have to do one heck of a lot of damage to not be a complete anchor around the army's neck, and would STILL need a lot of help from supporting units.In this case, your "gimmick" is crazy expensive, is based heavily on luck, and will fail far more often than it succeeds. Anyway, point is, no. Not really a solution.

So, TL/DR;

You give infiltrate to the lord and he confers it to the unit. That will require him to not have a mount, but it does assure that the unit gets to infiltrate no matter what dice roll you get.

The unit is certainly expensive, but it does solve the dilemma of getting across the board. If you pair in maulterfiends and some bikers, you have units that can catch up to the infiltrators quickly. You do have to sell out on the approach, but it's a workable way to run assault. If you want to shock your opponent, you can grab a mutilator or two and deep strike them (hopefully second turn). Then they eat some fire from other units or if they are ignored they put two power fists apiece to his face.

Anyway, that suggestion was mostly to find a way to get the bezerkers across the board.

As for the Eldar. They got wraithblades without having any assault vehicles.

You give infiltrate to the lord and he confers it to the unit. That will require him to not have a mount, but it does assure that the unit gets to infiltrate no matter what dice roll you get.

He has to join them before he can confer it, and as mentioned already (second sentence in the paragraph you quoted), he cannot join them if he is infiltrating (there's multiple YMDC threads on it) so no, doesn't work. Just like the previous time you quoted me, if you were actually READING what you were quoting I think you'd understand me better.

EDIT:

I think that's stupid and should be FAQ'd, but yeah anyway, until then, no. You can't run it that way.

The unit is certainly expensive, but it does solve the dilemma of getting across the board. If you pair in maulterfiends and some bikers, you have units that can catch up to the infiltrators quickly. You do have to sell out on the approach, but it's a workable way to run assault. If you want to shock your opponent, you can grab a mutilator or two and deep strike them (hopefully second turn). Then they eat some fire from other units or if they are ignored they put two power fists apiece to his face.

On the Mutilators - LOL NO. I'll dig the thread up later, but myself and others did a lot of testing of that exact strategy in an attempt to find a use for them and it's woefully lacking. For too many reasons to list. As for the rest of that quote - yes, as I already mentioned, you DO HAVE to build the rest of the list around that crazy expensive central unit which is one of the primary reasons CSM falls down as hard as it does. You tend to have to completely sell out to one strategy and just hope that A. you pull it off, and B. no one happens to have brought any of the many possible hard counters. Even at a fluffy/non-competitive level that gets old quick. Have you actually played any of the things you're suggesting? I've run through most of them already but I feel like you haven't.

As for the Eldar. They got wraithblades without having any assault vehicles.

But that's just an option on a unit that can already take a decent gun. Not really the same thing at all.

bogalubov wrote:

You give infiltrate to the lord and he confers it to the unit. That will require him to not have a mount, but it does assure that the unit gets to infiltrate no matter what dice roll you get.

That's not how it works from what I've read.

The unit is certainly expensive, but it does solve the dilemma of getting across the board. If you pair in maulterfiends and some bikers, you have units that can catch up to the infiltrators quickly. You do have to sell out on the approach, but it's a workable way to run assault. If you want to shock your opponent, you can grab a mutilator or two and deep strike them (hopefully second turn). Then they eat some fire from other units or if they are ignored they put two power fists apiece to his face.

Anyway, that suggestion was mostly to find a way to get the bezerkers across the board.

And not necessarily a very good one.

As for the Eldar. They got wraithblades without having any assault vehicles.

Yeah, they got Wraithblades which are T6 and can have a 4+ invulnerable save and strike at Str7. Plus they can be in a Waveserpent which is much harder to kill than a Rhino.

Notice though that Phail Kelly wrote both of these books and in both books, all the assaulting units are really pretty bad. Hell even in Orks, assault units aren't as good as the ranged units. I'd blame this on the author.

A point I haven't seen yet is that the CSM codex was the first 6th ed codex. As such, the meta hadn't settled yet. Kelly isn't a seer. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Is the codex pure crap? No. There are plenty of decent options. So you don't like the heldrake? Fair enough, but GW will never please everyone with their model design. I don't like it either, but then again I'm a loyalist.

The main flaw I see with the codex is the lack of good delivery systems. Something like the locator beacons and an assault transport with a cheaper price tag would have been great.

The bottom line is no codex has the breadth of viable builds you wish for. Take a look at the lists forum if you don't believe me. That complaint should be a general GW complaint, not a specific CSM one.

A point I haven't seen yet is that the CSM codex was the first 6th ed codex. As such, the meta hadn't settled yet. Kelly isn't a seer. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Is the codex pure crap? No. There are plenty of decent options. So you don't like the heldrake? Fair enough, but GW will never please everyone with their model design. I don't like it either, but then again I'm a loyalist.

The main flaw I see with the codex is the lack of good delivery systems. Something like the locator beacons and an assault transport with a cheaper price tag would have been great.

The bottom line is no codex has the breadth of viable builds you wish for. Take a look at the lists forum if you don't believe me. That complaint should be a general GW complaint, not a specific CSM one.

No, the meta hadn't settled. That being said, what's his excuse for pretty much ignoring a rule set that had been out for quite a while? The Necrons actually get along with 6th ed WAY better than CSM and that's a 5th ed codex that was apparently written "with 6th ed in mind". So if Ward can do it with a book that was written in a previous edition, why couldn't Kelly do it with an actual 6th ed book? Please note, I'm not talking about making CSM insanely powerful as some of the Necron builds, but rather getting at the fact that on the whole, they simply do NOT function as a 6th ed army. Meta or no, there's no excuse for so basic a mistake imo.

Completely agree with your delivery systems comment. Even a cheap open topped "modified Rhino" would have sufficed (for me anyway).

Also, I actually got a chuckle out of the fact that Vetock gave DA the Porta-rack. So we have Dark Angels - an army meant to hunt down Chaos and a potentially fun fluffy piece of wargear you can give to one of your imperial torturers in order to gain control of the enemy's beacons ... and then we have Chaos .... who has no beacons. lol

 ectoplastic wrote:
A point I haven't seen yet is that the CSM codex was the first 6th ed codex. As such, the meta hadn't settled yet. Kelly isn't a seer. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Is the codex pure crap? No. There are plenty of decent options. So you don't like the heldrake? Fair enough, but GW will never please everyone with their model design. I don't like it either, but then again I'm a loyalist.

The main flaw I see with the codex is the lack of good delivery systems. Something like the locator beacons and an assault transport with a cheaper price tag would have been great.

The bottom line is no codex has the breadth of viable builds you wish for. Take a look at the lists forum if you don't believe me. That complaint should be a general GW complaint, not a specific CSM one.

So Kelly isn't a seer but Mat Ward is? Because his Grey Knights codex had mastery levels waaaay before 6th ever came out! Grey Knights (and to a much greater extent Necrons) were both clearly written while 6th was being developed.

How come Phail Kelly couldn't anticipate this? Oh right because he's a hack.

Matt Ward isn't a seer. He just writes OP, broken codices with weird fluff.

I think the ideal codex team would be Phil for fluff and Matt for rules, Vetock as a second opinion, and Cruddace getting repeatedly punched in the face in the corner.

I think the ideal codex team would be Phil for fluff and Matt for rules, Vetock as a second opinion, and Cruddace getting repeatedly punched in the face in the corner.

LOL and exalted!

 ectoplastic wrote:
Matt Ward isn't a seer. He just writes OP, broken codices with weird fluff.

Hrm, his armies very well match the 6E metagame, the Necrons in particular either take excellent advantage of 6E mechanics or mitigate the biggest changes from 5E tremendously.

 ectoplastic wrote:
Matt Ward isn't a seer. He just writes OP, broken codices with weird fluff.

Yes, because GK, Blood Angels, and Space Marines are sooooo OP. If anything 6th toned down BA and GK and made them a lot more balanced. Necrons of course are very powerful since nothing in 6th edition actually harmed them but instead made them better.

Regardless, him writing "OP" codices wasn't the issue. It's the idea that Ward can actually write codices whilst keeping in mind the core rules and writing the army to fit the edition. Even Vetock, who's only written two 40k codices, has written Tau, which have ALL the tools to work well in 6th edition, hence why they're doing so well.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
It's the idea that Ward can actually write codices whilst keeping in mind the core rules and writing the army to fit the edition.

That's not really just a Ward problem, it's more a general GW problem. They seem to have no requirement that a writer know the rules, and no proofreading whatsoever. Half of a new book is generally copypasted straight from the previous and no one makes sure the old text doesn't clash with the new in some way.

 Kain wrote:
I think the ideal codex team would be Phil for fluff and Matt for rules, Vetock as a second opinion, and Cruddace getting repeatedly punched in the face in the corner.

This is probably the conclusion rational people come to without biased thoughts warped by the internet. Phil has a lot of misteps with rules but is generally respected for his writing with the lore. Matt on the otherhand isn't everyones cup of tea with the lore but his rules are usually solid and interesting. When you read the stuff he implements to the game(not fluff). You want to play it. When I finally digested the CSM book it felt like the CSM entry was copy/pasted 6 times with minor changes.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 ectoplastic wrote:
Matt Ward isn't a seer. He just writes OP, broken codices with weird fluff.

Yes, because GK, Blood Angels, and Space Marines are sooooo OP. If anything 6th toned down BA and GK and made them a lot more balanced. Necrons of course are very powerful since nothing in 6th edition actually harmed them but instead made them better.

All of those are 5th ed codices. The only one written with 6th in mind was Necrons and its dominating the 6th meta. GK ruled when they came out. You say yourself BA needed toning down. SM were his first effort so he probably didn't have as much freedom in writing it, especially since they're the "face" of the game. Besides, SM had strong lists in 5th. Matt Ward writes codices that aim to take the lead spot in the power scheme. And his fluff is... well discussed already.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Even Vetock, who's only written two 40k codices, has written Tau, which have ALL the tools to work well in 6th edition, hence why they're doing so well.

The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.

Assault was nerfed in 6th, we all know that. C:CSM does do efforts to remedy the situation with spawn, cheap bikes, dirge casters, etc., but we live in a shooty meta and that's something Chaos is equipped to do well at as well with noise marines, oblits, cheap havocs and preds, heldrakes.

This brings me back to my point that the CSM book was the first 6th ed book and that it still works fine in it. Are some of the units bad? Of course, all codices have bad units. Are there units that dominate FOC slots? Yes, as is the case in every other codex. I understand being disappointed when the units you like are the ones left behind, but saying the codex is worthless because of it is going a bit far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer the OP's question, I find the Chaos Marines to be whelming.

At its core, the problem is with the cost not the rules. Berzerkers are pretty awesome for what they do but 19-24 pts each makes them overpriced especially when you figure in the Lord tax you have to pay to make them troops. 1000 sons look pretty good until you figure they are gimped in HTH and can't respond ito being charged. Emp children - because of ignore cover are fairly effective. But then we come to plague marines... hmmm T5, FNP, Blight grenades and finally plague knives....

Now look at the base cost, and either berzerkers and 1000 sons are heavily over priced or plague marines are underpriced. Seeing we do have a baseline of CSM, I vote for true value of plague marines being too cheap.

 Gharron wrote:
Does anyone else feel like you have to run power units at all times to even compete?

Compete where? Are you playing at Nova, or the Bay Area Open?
If not, then any army can compete. If your army is not able to 'complete' vs your friends, then the issue is more likely to do with your tactics/strategy than the army.

 Gharron wrote:
I feel like our hq's (the named ones) don't even stack up, typhus challenges belial and man...belial ATE typhus. The guy even got a deny the witch roll for typhus's blast power. Am I just having a bad run of dice or is this army a little...underwhelming?

CSM have some of the best HQs in the game. Typhus is weak to STR 10 weapons, but will kick ass otherwise.

If you really want an HQ that will wreck face, take Abbadon.

The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.

Assault was nerfed in 6th, we all know that. C:CSM does do efforts to remedy the situation with spawn, cheap bikes, dirge casters, etc., but we live in a shooty meta and that's something Chaos is equipped to do well at as well with noise marines, oblits, cheap havocs and preds, heldrakes.

This brings me back to my point that the CSM book was the first 6th ed book and that it still works fine in it. Are some of the units bad? Of course, all codices have bad units. Are there units that dominate FOC slots? Yes, as is the case in every other codex. I understand being disappointed when the units you like are the ones left behind, but saying the codex is worthless because of it is going a bit far.

Your assertions there are largely incorrect. My Tau have a gunline build, a shoot 'n' scoot build, a infiltration build, a stealth build, the Farsight bomb build and several others that all play completely different to one another.

As far as the timing of the codexes - this is largely irrelevant when the core issues with the CSM book have almost nothing at all to do with the meta (or at least not in the way you seem to think it does). We don't have a "shooty meta" because someone suddenly came up with an insanely powerful gunline list. We live in a shooty meta because the rules in the core rulebook nerfed assault in a fairly brutal manner. You said it yourself - CC sucks in this edition. No doubt. This was plainly obvious to anyone who read the rules on the first go through. These same rules were available to Kelly well in advance of his writing CSM. So why then, did Kelly make so many new CC units? If he was so insistent on including them, then how hard would it really have been to hand out some DS beacons of some sort, or as many have suggested, some kind of assault Rhino or something like that?

So no, we live in shooty meta because the 6th ed rules have dictated that from day one. Why the other authors were able to take that into account where Kelly wasn't is beyond me, but the fact that his was the first book really isn't an excuse for that particular issue. I feel like your arguments are actually making him look worse.

ectoplastic wrote:
The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.

The Tau book would already have been finished by time the CSM book was released, or very nearly, the books are generally finished 6 months in advance of release date in order for graphics, formatting, test copies, etc to happen and for print runs generate sufficient stockpiles of books for sale.

Assault was nerfed in 6th, we all know that.

And herein lies the problem, much of the book is built around slow-ish heavy CC units

C:CSM does do efforts to remedy the situation with spawn, cheap bikes, dirge casters, etc., but we live in a shooty meta and that's something Chaos is equipped to do well at as well with noise marines, oblits, cheap havocs and preds, heldrakes.

Not nearly as well as they really need to, nor does it really fit thematically for most armies.

Oblits don't offer lots of firepower, they're an expensive swiss army knife that can deliver the right kind of weapon regardless of what it's facing (as long as you don't need to do it a 2nd turn in a row now...) but in terms of volume of firepower they're amongst some of the least cost efficient units in the game for that. Noise Marines likewise aren't cheap for what they offer (they're not awful, but certainly aren't cheap for that kind of firepower). Predators aren't much better than in previous editions except the trilas really if I'm remembering correctly. Heldrakes are really where it's at, but are a crutch.

 ectoplastic wrote:
The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.

Do you think that codices just magically appear when GW snaps their fingers?

Codices have at least a 1 year lead time just for design, with concepting the new book and models, wriiting it, producing several model masters and figuring out which to go with. Add to that production - tooling molds, producing the initial run of models, books and accompanying paraphernalia like cards and stockpiling it around the world for distribution, you've got well over a year of production and design work on a single book.

Now consider that 5 books have been released in a very short amount of time for GW, and it's very like that these 5 books were at least started at the same time, or very close to each other, all before 6th edition hit. Main production, however, would have been going at about the same time for all of them, which means Vetock didn't have much more time at all than Kelly to do his Tau rules, and even then, the 6th edition meta hadn't resolved itself until the Tau book was likely done and in warehouses, much like Chaos.

Vetock is a good writer - and seems to have hit the nail on the head with Tau. Kelly is a good writer, but has his problems, and that's no different with Chaos. All codex writers have hits and misses, but attributing the success of the Tau book to Vetock having more time really isn't true.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Gharron wrote:
Does anyone else feel like you have to run power units at all times to even compete?

Compete where? Are you playing at Nova, or the Bay Area Open?
If not, then any army can compete. If your army is not able to 'complete' vs your friends, then the issue is more likely to do with your tactics/strategy than the army.

 Gharron wrote:
I feel like our hq's (the named ones) don't even stack up, typhus challenges belial and man...belial ATE typhus. The guy even got a deny the witch roll for typhus's blast power. Am I just having a bad run of dice or is this army a little...underwhelming?

CSM have some of the best HQs in the game. Typhus is weak to STR 10 weapons, but will kick ass otherwise.

If you really want an HQ that will wreck face, take Abbadon.

I think I even said that in my opening. That I was totally new but I was feeling completely underwhelmed playing against deathwing and tau. Deathwing the second game I played against them took plasma cannons and I was almost tabled. Granted, My dice rolls weren't grant but I didn't say the codex was complete doodoo but I just don't feel like we're on the tier of other 6th armies and even necrons.

I shouldn't have to take one of the most expensive HQ's to have to "wreck face" I should be able to stand up in a fight with MOST of our hq's. If nurgle's CHAMPION can't stand up to belial in a fight because we have the randomness with orks coupled with space marines...things are gonna be a lot more luck than skill...

The problem is 2 fold.

1/ The logic in the book is not there. From a strictly fluff place there is no way to accurately depict a mono god force in a way that makes you feel like you're playing a force. Lack of vehicle marks and the ability to give cult troops power armor is a big cripple in the "suspension of disbelief". So the fluff people feel very meh about this book.

Look at Dark Angels for good examples of how to make an army even though it is basically just Space Marines, give a feeling that you're actually playing Dark Angels. Have an HQ? Give it terminator armor? Inner Circle conferred. Etc etc...

2/ Phil Kellys view of Chaos is that of a 12 year olds. This is just my feeling given the way the units are. There isn't a whole lot of tactical options with Chaos, everything is random. Want to outflank a unit? Hope you like to play Slaanesh or take a Special Character or roll on the Warlords Chart. Want to Infilitrate? Hope you like Huron or roll on the Warlords Chart.
There is no subtlety in the Chaos book.

Phil Kelly gets Eldar, because he loves Eldar and wants to play like Eldar so Eldar are fast and hit hard. Phil Kelly sees Chaos as a bunch of psychopaths in it to spill blood and become Demons so they play like that, and if that's how you view Chaos then you're probably very happy with the book. If you view Chaos as something more subtle, or with more than one way to play then you probably not very happy with this book.

Phil Kelly gets Eldar, because he loves Eldar and wants to play like Eldar so Eldar are fast and hit hard. Phil Kelly sees Chaos as a bunch of psychopaths in it to spill blood and become Demons so they play like that, and if that's how you view Chaos then you're probably very happy with the book. If you view Chaos as something more subtle, or with more than one way to play then you probably not very happy with this book.

I can't even agree with that, Possessed (Aka, daemons in living flesh suits) are not Daemons of X, they are marked, Obliterators and Warp Talons, do not get Daemon of X, Warp spawn, which while not daemonic in a full sense, do not even get this (They did in Fantasy for sake!), if Possessed gained Daemons of X, they would've been Far Better with those costs.

Not to mention Gift of Mutation is overpriced, so you can't even play a fully mutated squad to begin with because of how bad it can be, and should the model become a DP later on, he'll be penalized and lose all his mutations and gear! Fantasy had the right idea on the mutation chart at least. LD check for spawn/princedom, get to keep all your as a DP. (For those who question how a bike can be given to a Daemon Prince, see DoomRider)

 Gharron wrote:
I think I even said that in my opening. That I was totally new but I was feeling completely underwhelmed playing against deathwing and tau. Deathwing the second game I played against them took plasma cannons and I was almost tabled. Granted, My dice rolls weren't grant but I didn't say the codex was complete doodoo but I just don't feel like we're on the tier of other 6th armies and even necrons.

It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better

 Gharron wrote:
I shouldn't have to take one of the most expensive HQ's to have to "wreck face" I should be able to stand up in a fight with MOST of our hq's. If nurgle's CHAMPION can't stand up to belial in a fight because we have the randomness with orks coupled with space marines...things are gonna be a lot more luck than skill...

First, Abbadon is not that much more expensive than Typhus. I'm saying if you want a lord who can take nearly any other ICs lunch money, take Abbadon. O
Run the math. You will see that Typhus will kill Belial more often than not. You got bad dice rolls. It happens. Don't let that dissuade you from the army.

 labmouse42 wrote:


It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better

So...SO true. Exalted this post. I wish more people would look in the mirror once in a while and say: "the only reason I struggled with unit X is because I haven't done it enough to gauge it". Can't even count the number of threads wherein unimaginative sorts try to tell you X and Y doesn't work and they haven't even tried it.

Sometimes the answers are right under your nose. Just need more practice.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Gharron wrote:
I think I even said that in my opening. That I was totally new but I was feeling completely underwhelmed playing against deathwing and tau. Deathwing the second game I played against them took plasma cannons and I was almost tabled. Granted, My dice rolls weren't grant but I didn't say the codex was complete doodoo but I just don't feel like we're on the tier of other 6th armies and even necrons.

It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better

 Gharron wrote:
I shouldn't have to take one of the most expensive HQ's to have to "wreck face" I should be able to stand up in a fight with MOST of our hq's. If nurgle's CHAMPION can't stand up to belial in a fight because we have the randomness with orks coupled with space marines...things are gonna be a lot more luck than skill...

First, Abbadon is not that much more expensive than Typhus. I'm saying if you want a lord who can take nearly any other ICs lunch money, take Abbadon. O
Run the math. You will see that Typhus will kill Belial more often than not. You got bad dice rolls. It happens. Don't let that dissuade you from the army.

how about counts as abbadon? i dont like abbadon, he looks like a fridge, i dont like his top knot and i dont want black legion.

and while we at it, my forgeworld dreadnoughts counts as helldrake and all these guys are actaully plague marines

 Jancoran wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:


It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better

So...SO true. Exalted this post. I wish more people would look in the mirror once in a while and say: "the only reason I struggled with unit X is because I haven't done it enough to gauge it". Can't even count the number of threads wherein unimaginative sorts try to tell you X and Y doesn't work and they haven't even tried it.

Sometimes the answers are right under your nose. Just need more practice.

nah not really. the game is not that complex or complicated, gw's target market is children after all. if you have eyes and a brain you can probably figure out that psycannon is better than psilencer for example. i dont need to test psilencer to know that it sucks. the broken stuff tends to leap off the page.

kb305 wrote:
nah not really. the game is not that complex or complicated, gw's target market is children after all. if you have eyes and a brain you can probably figure out that psycannon is better than psilencer for example. i dont need to test psilencer to know that it sucks. the broken stuff tends to leap off the page.

Ah, this debate again... A few months ago there was a big thread on this.

Being 'good' at 40k is much more than just knowing what units are considered the best. Its the way to use them. It an understanding of how you can dictate your opponents movement. Its about target priority. Its about knowing your opponents army as well as you know your own. Its about a wealth of different aspects that all accumulate to make a complex game.

Some people say that the skill ceiling is very good, and that the only way people win major events is 'luck'. If it were pure 'luck', then you would not see the same people in the top tables. The last defense people made in regards to their 'luck theory' was that top winners like Tony Kopach are cheaters. That's complete rubbish.

If you start winning all the games against your friends, then I suggest attending some national events. I consider myself a good player at both 40k and chess, but found myself humbled when I started attending national events. There are some amazing players out there. When you play with them, you will learn how high the skill ceiling is.

All a psycannon is is an assault cannon with psybolts and another firing mode. It's impressive but not game breaking.