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The amount of complaints regarding Chaos is because it's such a half assed codex. And by that I mean it's poorly thought out.

Their ArmyRule of "Always Challenge" flies in the face of most of the warbands traits that the book is supposed to be representing. Fine for a Berzerker warband or WordBearers but Alpha Legion or NightLords? and Thousand Sons?

You have NoiseMarines with Sonic Weapons. But no option to give those SonicWeapons to any HQ,Terminator/Dreadnought/or any vehicle.

You have Thousand Sons Sorcerors who are supposed to be the very same guys from 10k years ago, yet have no option to be more than ML1 and are stuck with awful psychic powers that you MUST take. And again once you put Terminator armor on you lose your AP3 bolters, as well as no option to mark your dread. (Psychic dread option would have been nice)

You have Nurgle Marines who again once they put on Term armor lose their ability to have FNP? (but Slaanesh Terms can????)

And Khorne poor Khorne....I wont even begin...

Not even a God based armory. Yes you get a couple of wargear items that can only be taken by a specific Mark. Would it have hurt to have 3-4 items be God Specific for each God?

Not to mention the lack of incorporation of the ChaosDemons element. No Khorne berserkers riding their Demon Beast? No Slaanesh Cavalry on Seekers? No Thousand Sons on Discs of Tzeentch?


The basic problem with the CSM dex is that it doesn't allow people to play the armies like they think they should be played. In Codex Demons you can mark everything and they all get their special God Rule and you say yes thats an army that's unified.

In Codex CSM it's a case of " I wish I could mark my vehicles like Demons, or even a more profound wtfm8 why do my elite of the elites lose their Gods favour when they put on Terminator armor.

Now if all Codex CSM was was a framework with which to get people to use the Iyanden style codex as they release them then fine. But as a standalone Codex it is woefully short on options for fluffy lists.

So the problem with CSM codex that most people have is that it doesn't play how they want it to play?

By that logic, I should get upset when the new IG codex comes out and I have no option to run a Gaunt's Ghosts type of army. You know, they should have a 2+ cover save out in the open. Everyone model has a demo charge. A well placed lasgun shot should kill a dreadnought. My HQ should be able to go head to head with a daemon prince.

If I expect GW to release a book like that I might as well start complaining that they didn't deliver what I wanted right now.

The recipe for 6th edition codexes has been.

1. Take old codex and reshuffle the points costs. Make basic troops cheaper.
2. Make a few new kits.
3. One big new kit per army.

The chaos codex was the first one to come out under the blue print and the power level seen there has been pretty consistent there for the rest of the books in 6th. The strongest individual book remains Necrons, a 5th edition codex.

In terms of fluff, GW has moved away from legions and has gone with "general chaos space marines". This was the case with the last codex and the same with this one. The new story is that it's been 10,000 years, the legions have fractured. That's why you see many different types of traitors coming together to fight.

If you used to play the 3.5 codex where you could field legions and mono-god armies, I can see you being frustrated that your lists are no longer valid. However, GW is a model selling company. If you have all the models that you need, you're not a very good customer. That's why things change and power levels wax and wane. With that in mind, in terms of being a competitive codex, I think CSM is descent. Combined with the Daemons codex it can very strong.

Tycho wrote:
I think the sheer amount of complaints STILL coming out so long after the initial release points to the fact that

...Chaos Space Marine players will never, ever be happy.

CSM players want to tbe like loyalists in that they get six different codices, basically.

 Melissia wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I think the sheer amount of complaints STILL coming out so long after the initial release points to the fact that

...Chaos Space Marine players will never, ever be happy.

CSM players want to tbe like loyalists in that they get six different codices, basically.

Well if each race (I'm counting the guard and SOBs as different races, don't worry) gets six different codices and GW mystically keeps a reasonable updating schedule for them that ensures they all get updated each edition, I'd be all for it. Sadly it's just a pipe dream that will never be.

bogalubov wrote:
So the problem with CSM codex that most people have is that it doesn't play how they want it to play?

No, the problem is that you took a single quote out of context. People don't think that Thousand Sons sorcerers (or psykers in general) should be REQUIRED to challenge, amongst many other problems which I won't repeat.

If you used to play the 3.5 codex where you could field legions and mono-god armies, I can see you being frustrated that your lists are no longer valid. However, GW is a model selling company. If you have all the models that you need, you're not a very good customer. That's why things change and power levels wax and wane. With that in mind, in terms of being a competitive codex, I think CSM is descent. Combined with the Daemons codex it can very strong.

Most of the comments in this thread are people wanting more options, not competition. If I wanted to win games I would just go out and buy Plague Marines and Helturkeys. But I don't. I want a coherent army that's fun to play. Khorne isn't even fun to play this edition, nor is Tzeentch.

bogalubov wrote:
So the problem with CSM codex that most people have is that it doesn't play how they want it to play?

By that logic, I should get upset when the new IG codex comes out and I have no option to run a Gaunt's Ghosts type of army. You know, they should have a 2+ cover save out in the open. Everyone model has a demo charge. A well placed lasgun shot should kill a dreadnought. My HQ should be able to go head to head with a daemon prince.

If I expect GW to release a book like that I might as well start complaining that they didn't deliver what I wanted right now.

The recipe for 6th edition codexes has been.

1. Take old codex and reshuffle the points costs. Make basic troops cheaper.
2. Make a few new kits.
3. One big new kit per army.

The chaos codex was the first one to come out under the blue print and the power level seen there has been pretty consistent there for the rest of the books in 6th. The strongest individual book remains Necrons, a 5th edition codex.

In terms of fluff, GW has moved away from legions and has gone with "general chaos space marines". This was the case with the last codex and the same with this one. The new story is that it's been 10,000 years, the legions have fractured. That's why you see many different types of traitors coming together to fight.

If you used to play the 3.5 codex where you could field legions and mono-god armies, I can see you being frustrated that your lists are no longer valid. However, GW is a model selling company. If you have all the models that you need, you're not a very good customer. That's why things change and power levels wax and wane. With that in mind, in terms of being a competitive codex, I think CSM is descent. Combined with the Daemons codex it can very strong.

You're skipping the point. I said I was underwhelmed by most of the units. Look at the article that just came up in dakka MOST units are a semi competitve with competitive and then a "eh" rating. You keep saying we're griping about power, we're griping about being cornered into nurgle being the only truly competitive God. Everyone has also said they don't want to move away from the "legions" fluff. I know I sure don't, I want my iron warriors shooty killy and maimy. I want my khorne berserkers to be the scariest thing in melee because well ya know...when I read the books that's kinda...their thing? I want my sorcerers to be just that not some "HOLY CRAP THOSE POWERS ARE POOPY AND HE'S EXPENSIVE". The only 2 gods I can see being feasible with this codex are nurgle and slaanesh, because noise marines are awesome. Like I've said multiple times though, look at what other NAMED characters do for an army, ghazzy makes all of the orks go bananas belial is a man among men and makes termis troops. Look at our hq's at best they make our cult troops - troops. I had typhus go into a challenge against belial and get smashed. I didn't want to challenge but I HAD to. It just has so many silly components that don't make sense and for being the "first" 6th book it doesn't fit in very well. IMO


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I think the sheer amount of complaints STILL coming out so long after the initial release points to the fact that

...Chaos Space Marine players will never, ever be happy.

CSM players want to tbe like loyalists in that they get six different codices, basically.

I don't think that's true at all, I love chaos marines. When I think of pure evil in ANY gaming universe I think of chaos. I don't think we need 6 codices to be please with our book. Just a defining element to the army we're choosing. Something that defines that army, It's not to much to ask IMO. I mean something like iron warriors are granted this world eaters that something that makes the army an army. At most our HQ's make things troops. That doesn't make the list ANY cooler or more fun to play just that you can spam more of that cult. There's nothing that makes your elites heavies fast attack ANYTHING you would see in a warband of that legion. That's what I'm talking about, and our most powerful unit? A flier that in my experience I haven't seen until turn 3-4 at the earliest. Granted, that's dice but comon now.

How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.

With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.

Ergo were left with a few points

- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.

- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.

- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.

- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.

- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.


Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.

Don't have time to address everything here but wanted to reply to this real quick

 lazarian wrote:
How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops,

Functionally the way they're actually used, they're Troops that have to be unlocked, they're not really typical "elites" units. I can't think of a list that I've encountered that has used any of those as actual "elites".

 lazarian wrote:
How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.

With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.

Ergo were left with a few points

- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.

- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.

- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.

- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.

- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.


Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.

Or just paint them in a generic scheme point at them and say they have mark of nurgle. Give all your nightlords mark of nurgle too, who cares. The book is to boring, generic and uninspiring there's little reason to even stick to fluff modeling options.

CSM is mostly a hodgepodge of crap at the moment.

Functionally the way they're actually used, they're Troops that have to be unlocked, they're not really typical "elites" units. I can't think of a list that I've encountered that has used any of those as actual "elites".

Yeah, but do you know how many troop choices Tau have? 2.

What about Eldar? 3

Chaos can unlock more troops from the elites slot and the chaos marines themselves are very customizable.

For example, you can turn regular chaos marines into pseudo bezerkers and use your old bezerker models. They will be cheaper and for most part more effective as you can give them special weapons.

You're skipping the point. I said I was underwhelmed by most of the units. Look at the article that just came up in dakka MOST units are a semi competitve with competitive and then a "eh" rating. You keep saying we're griping about power, we're griping about being cornered into nurgle being the only truly competitive God. Everyone has also said they don't want to move away from the "legions" fluff. I know I sure don't, I want my iron warriors shooty killy and maimy. I want my khorne berserkers to be the scariest thing in melee because well ya know...when I read the books that's kinda...their thing? I want my sorcerers to be just that not some "HOLY CRAP THOSE POWERS ARE POOPY AND HE'S EXPENSIVE". The only 2 gods I can see being feasible with this codex are nurgle and slaanesh, because noise marines are awesome. Like I've said multiple times though, look at what other NAMED characters do for an army, ghazzy makes all of the orks go bananas belial is a man among men and makes termis troops. Look at our hq's at best they make our cult troops - troops. I had typhus go into a challenge against belial and get smashed. I didn't want to challenge but I HAD to. It just has so many silly components that don't make sense and for being the "first" 6th book it doesn't fit in very well. IMO

I'm only addressing the arguments that people are presenting to me.

Your original point was "Chaos marines is a weak codex". I countered with my opinions that there are a good number of competitive choices in the book and the book is on par with other 6th edition codexes.

In terms of actual units, I don't own any plague marines. My lord is Khorne marked and my army is assault based. It took me a little while to find the right balance of units, but I've had good success playing in a competitive environment. I don't win every game, but I'm usually in the game and have fun. With spawn, bikes, hell even raptors you have other options that do not lean on the heldrake. Even maulerfiends can compliment your assault units.

If you want to shoot and you don't like obliterators you have the cheapest autocannons in the game. You have cheap predators. Forgefiends can put out a torrent of dakka. If you take a chaos herald or Lord of Change you can even get prescience for those guys.

So if you don't want to play heldrakes and obliterators, I just named you a bunch of other options. The power of the codex does not drop any worse if you don't use those units than it would for Necrons if you took Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges away. Or if you took Paladins from Grey Knights. Or Riptides from Tau. But the Heldrake is an option, and it's arguably the most broken flyer in the game. Are we honestly complaining that our codex has one of the cheesiest units?

The codex is also battle brothers with daemons which opens up a ton of other broken possibilities.

There have been other commenters that have complained that their fluffy units are gone. I've tried to point out that if you have a play style in mind that you enjoy, there is nothing that prevents you from finding the rule book that fits your play style and just make the rules fit your own fluff. But for some reason that's not a workable solution.

What I'm getting is that you GW to make you the fluffy units that you like and they need to be super beefy at the same time. You'd like to be fluffy WAAC tournament players.

I don't play chaos so I'm a neutral party in this so I have an outsider's percpetive. It's not awful, but its not what it should have been. This is Chaos, the bane of the Empire, and they get a half-baked codex. People who play chaos didn't want a overpowering codex like some people accuse them of wanting, they wanted a codex that fits the fluff that they've come to love over the years. Fans of Nights Lords wanted a codex that lets them play an army of Night Lords. Instead they get "play Nurgle or die." That's not fun.
Is the codex competitive? Yes.
Is there variety in army lists? Yes.
Is it imaginative with non infantry cult units? No.
Can I play my Iron Warriors army? Not really...unless they all have the mark of Nurgle.....what?

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't play chaos so I'm a neutral party in this so I have an outsider's percpetive. It's not awful, but its not what it should have been. This is Chaos, the bane of the Empire, and they get a half-baked codex. People who play chaos didn't want a overpowering codex like some people accuse them of wanting, they wanted a codex that fits the fluff that they've come to love over the years. Fans of Nights Lords wanted a codex that lets them play an army of Night Lords. Instead they get "play Nurgle or die." That's not fun.
Is the codex competitive? Yes.
Is there variety in army lists? Yes.
Is it imaginative with non infantry cult units? No.
Can I play my Iron Warriors army? Not really...unless they all have the mark of Nurgle.....what?

Take a bastion and jam it full of havocs with autocannons and lascannons. Bam, you have Iron Warriors. You have fortifications, you have heavy weapons. I'm not sure how much more Iron Warriory it can get. Not satisfied with that? Ally in an artillery battery (0-1 just like 3.5 codex) from IG.

People need to let go of the idea that the game designers need to sit down and say "Oooh, I need to take care of those 200 night lord players in the world, let's make a unit called Night Lord attack squads. They will be awesome and have a choice of jump packs, or bikes, or maybe a giant bat."

If you want a giant bat riding Night Lord. Just model a chaos marine on a bat and say that they use the rules for bikers. Or ally in some Tzeentch screamers and use their rules as your bat riding marines. It's your hobby, find a way to enjoy it.

bogalubov wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't play chaos so I'm a neutral party in this so I have an outsider's percpetive. It's not awful, but its not what it should have been. This is Chaos, the bane of the Empire, and they get a half-baked codex. People who play chaos didn't want a overpowering codex like some people accuse them of wanting, they wanted a codex that fits the fluff that they've come to love over the years. Fans of Nights Lords wanted a codex that lets them play an army of Night Lords. Instead they get "play Nurgle or die." That's not fun.
Is the codex competitive? Yes.
Is there variety in army lists? Yes.
Is it imaginative with non infantry cult units? No.
Can I play my Iron Warriors army? Not really...unless they all have the mark of Nurgle.....what?

Take a bastion and jam it full of havocs with autocannons and lascannons. Bam, you have Iron Warriors. You have fortifications, you have heavy weapons. I'm not sure how much more Iron Warriory it can get. Not satisfied with that? Ally in an artillery battery (0-1 just like 3.5 codex) from IG.

People need to let go of the idea that the game designers need to sit down and say "Oooh, I need to take care of those 200 night lord players in the world, let's make a unit called Night Lord attack squads. They will be awesome and have a choice of jump packs, or bikes, or maybe a giant bat."

If you want a giant bat riding Night Lord. Just model a chaos marine on a bat and say that they use the rules for bikers. Or ally in some Tzeentch screamers and use their rules as your bat riding marines. It's your hobby, find a way to enjoy it.

that is probably along the lines of what they would make too. a giant bat, farting out smaller bats, being ridden by a batman and it's also on fire too for some reason

bogalubov wrote:

Functionally the way they're actually used, they're Troops that have to be unlocked, they're not really typical "elites" units. I can't think of a list that I've encountered that has used any of those as actual "elites".

Yeah, but do you know how many troop choices Tau have? 2.

What about Eldar? 3

Chaos can unlock more troops from the elites slot and the chaos marines themselves are very customizable.

For example, you can turn regular chaos marines into pseudo bezerkers and use your old bezerker models. They will be cheaper and for most part more effective as you can give them special weapons.

Nice, I didn't know you were a Texan Sharpshooter. You know how many "troop" options Chaos Space Marines have? 2. Most codices tend to have 2-3 different troop choices which is the same as the Chaos.
If you want to get into unlocking, then Chaos Space Marines can have up to 4 (if you take 2 differently marked Lords or a Tzeentch Sorcerer). This of course doesn't mean a lot because Dark Angels can have up to 4 different types of troop choices. Which is fine. But don't act like we have more options than everyone else.

Most codices have 3 troop choices. Functionally, Chaos Space Marines have 3 different troop choices if you take a Marked Lord. So we're no different there.

In terms of actual units, I don't own any plague marines. My lord is Khorne marked and my army is assault based. It took me a little while to find the right balance of units, but I've had good success playing in a competitive environment. I don't win every game, but I'm usually in the game and have fun. With spawn, bikes, hell even raptors you have other options that do not lean on the heldrake. Even maulerfiends can compliment your assault units.

Good for you, I can use anecdotes too! Also I find it funny that you really only mention Fast Attack choices.

If you want to shoot and you don't like obliterators you have the cheapest autocannons in the game. You have cheap predators. Forgefiends can put out a torrent of dakka. If you take a chaos herald or Lord of Change you can even get prescience for those guys.

Great, so I have to take allies in order for my book to be viable. Sounds good man.

So if you don't want to play heldrakes and obliterators, I just named you a bunch of other options. The power of the codex does not drop any worse if you don't use those units than it would for Necrons if you took Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges away. Or if you took Paladins from Grey Knights. Or Riptides from Tau. But the Heldrake is an option, and it's arguably the most broken flyer in the game. Are we honestly complaining that our codex has one of the cheesiest units?

Yeah...you named all the other fast attack choices. And allies. Tau would still be good without the Riptide. Grey Knights don't use Paladins anymore. Necrons would still be pretty good without Night Scythes. But Chaos would never be used if it wasn't for the Helturkey. And I refuse to buy it because then I'd just be encouraging behavior I don't agree with.

The codex is also battle brothers with daemons which opens up a ton of other broken possibilities.

Yeah, I love the part where my Chaos Daemon Heralds can join up with my Chaos Space Marine units! Oh wait.

There have been other commenters that have complained that their fluffy units are gone. I've tried to point out that if you have a play style in mind that you enjoy, there is nothing that prevents you from finding the rule book that fits your play style and just make the rules fit your own fluff. But for some reason that's not a workable solution.

What I'm getting is that you GW to make you the fluffy units that you like and they need to be super beefy at the same time. You'd like to be fluffy WAAC tournament players.

What I'm getting from you is that you love to use anecdotes and cherry-pick examples. See I can do it too!
I'd just like Khorne units that didn't suck. Wow so the Khorne Lord is good, as long as you take a cookie-cutter Lord. That's the only sem-viable and not "fighting with one hand tied behind your back" Khorne unit in the book. There is no reason to take the Mark of Khorne and I think that you'd understand that since apparently you play it.

Why should I bother paying $50 for a book that pisses over my army? If you're telling me to do counts-as, I'm just going to use Blood Angels or the Horus Heresy: Betrayal list.

 lazarian wrote:
- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.

This is the one part of your rant I disagree with. The 3.5 books massive scope of customiseability was used by more than just WAAC players. The amount you could do with it was amazing, and most of the sub par options were only considered sub par because a few options were flatout better than anything in the game at that time, not just flat out better than other options in that codex.

I do agree that the Chaos codex has far more options than most right now, however. While people complain it's not up wo par with the 3.5 codex, it still has a massive wealth of options. The only book right now that surpasses it really is the IG codex, and that's purely down to how many tank variants they have.

Quite surprising that so many have negative feelings. I think UNMET expectations has more to do with this than the actual codex being good OR bad.

Everyone wanted the codex to BE something it isn't and no oner got entirely what they wanted.

When does ANYONE get EVERYTHING they wanted?

I like the Chaos codex. I like it a LOT better than its predecessor. No codex is ever going to be revered like the 3E version was but then again, that was a different meta in 40K back then.

Im not saying that people are wrong to WISH the codex had done more to represent the "factions" like Night Lords (My favorite) but the codex itself does NOT do a poor job of winning.

I'll take this book over the previous one any day of the century.

 Shadowbrand wrote:
I'll take this book over the previous one any day of the century.

I would too though that's like saying that I prefer getting teeth pulled to getting waterboarded. (Obviously a metaphor)

The codex could have been so much better. I am not sure what Phil Kelley was thinking. He was either rushed or was completely unmotivated. He has written good stuff in the past, so it was surprising. I was expecting a beat face codex. Competitive builds really revolve around Nurgle, Baledrakes, Cultists\Zombies, and Oblits aren't bad in the right list.

But what about all the rest? Mutilators? Defilers? Warp Talons? Chaos Terminators? Forge Fiends? Tsons? Basic CSM? Warp Smith? There is no reason to field these units unless you just play for lolz and like the models....

The new CSM book should have been like Grey Knights in 5th. They are 10,000 year old super soliders infested with the power of the dark gods...

One of the things which I were initially very excited about was that every unit could have a Mark of Chaos, but afterwards some things seemed very odd. It's a completely new thing that all units can have Marks but what about vehicles?

Chaos vehicles must be some of the most converted models in the entire game, why not give them some god-specific upgrades? Wouldn't be that hard.

That awful previous Chaos Space Marine codex had four god-specific Daemon weapons, why just make two in the new codex? Where's the logic here?

And then there's the oh-so many cases of ineffective Chaos units and upgrades, which are too expensive when compared to what they do.

An army rule which could make the army fun and exciting is the Chaos Champion rule, but it's more negative than positive and I'm not even sure it fits the background.

Mutilators were probably a little ill thought out. Yup. I haven't seen one fielded yet. hehehe.

Im not sure I am as on board wit the rest of that list, but the Mutilators for sure are one unit I cant really understand. The Obliterators are such an obviously strong choice in comparison.

Relic07 wrote:
The codex could have been so much better. I am not sure what Phil Kelley was thinking. He was either rushed or was completely unmotivated. He has written good stuff in the past, so it was surprising. I was expecting a beat face codex. Competitive builds really revolve around Nurgle, Baledrakes, Cultists\Zombies, and Oblits aren't bad in the right list.

But what about all the rest? Mutilators? Defilers? Warp Talons? Chaos Terminators? Forge Fiends? Tsons? Basic CSM? Warp Smith? There is no reason to field these units unless you just play for lolz and like the models....

The new CSM book should have been like Grey Knights in 5th. They are 10,000 year old super soliders infested with the power of the dark gods...

That's my picture of Chaos Space Marines too but I think that GW are moving away from the image of Chaos Space Marines being elite infantry, they want normal Space Marines to have that image. You can tell by watching the Ultramarines movie (I know GW didn't write the scripts) or look at our transport options and maximum models in a unit. They want us to footslog big cheap units across the board like Orks along animal robots (= Squiggoths), while Space Marines get the opposite option, to halve their squads while maintaining the bonuses of a full size squad.

Except we still cost more than loyalists xD the only way to make them cheaper is 11+ and that ignores the fact that making them vets, marked, or given cc weapons actually makes us more expensive. And we get a bad special universal rule to add to that!

Personally I am underwhelmed. I love Thousand Sons and Berserkers. Yeah I am done at that have a good day! *cries*

I see that nobody has offered a rebuttal to Cult Terminators, Havocs, Raptors, Lords, and Sorcerers.

 Kain wrote:
I see that nobody has offered a rebuttal to Cult Terminators, Havocs, Raptors, Lords, and Sorcerers.

I thought those units could take marks?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I see that nobody has offered a rebuttal to Cult Terminators, Havocs, Raptors, Lords, and Sorcerers.

I thought those units could take marks?

Is a chaos marine with a mark of nurgle the same as a cult plague marine?

No.

Are plague marine terminators a thing?

I know thousand sons terminators were a thing, but I do not recall plague marine terminators.

What would be a cult raptor and havoc, anyway?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No.

Are plague marine terminators a thing?

What would be a cult raptor, anyway?

Typhus wears Terminator armor

Also



According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.

I say feth that, that is stupid.

And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No.

Are plague marine terminators a thing?

What would be a cult raptor, anyway?

Typhus wears Terminator armor

Also



According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.

I say feth that, that is stupid.

And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No.

Are plague marine terminators a thing?

What would be a cult raptor, anyway?

Typhus wears Terminator armor

Also



According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.

I say feth that, that is stupid.

And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

I'm immortalizing this typo.

Also, there is a precedent for Rubric Raptors.