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I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.

When will I get them GW?

 Kain wrote:
I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.

When will I get them GW?

Stick a mark on them and presto?

The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.

I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?

I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.

I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.

If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.

bogalubov wrote:

If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.

I dont need anyone to tell me it's ok to do it....... at the end of the day the codex didn't give me what I wanted.

I could use the Blood Angels as Night Lords for example but I dont want to..... hey presto, move on.

The codex marine has options that made me buy lots of models (Master of Forge with 6 Dreads etc) and this variety keeps it a good book, I think it would have been nice for the Chaos Marine dex to do something similar.

Lovepug13 wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.

I dont need anyone to tell me it's ok to do it....... at the end of the day the codex didn't give me what I wanted.

I could use the Blood Angels as Night Lords for example but I dont want to..... hey presto, move on.

The codex marine has options that made me buy lots of models (Master of Forge with 6 Dreads etc) and this keeps it a good book, I think it would have been nice for the Chaos Marine dex to do something similar.

I'm at 4000 points of chaos after trading away another 1200 and I'm not even close to having all the possible units in the codex.

Plus the master of the forge with 6 dreads is an odd example. That's not a particularly good list if you ran all of them at once. You can get sub-optimal lists with tons of models for CSM too.

bogalubov wrote:
Plus the master of the forge with 6 dreads is an odd example. That's not a particularly good list if you ran all of them at once. You can get sub-optimal lists with tons of models for CSM too.

Perhaps not everyone really worries how competitive something is and just plays the game with models and builds that they like, I could be wrong though...

Obviously if the builds that you like to use (or would like to use) are not available its fair to say the codex isn't for you......

Lovepug13 wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
Plus the master of the forge with 6 dreads is an odd example. That's not a particularly good list if you ran all of them at once. You can get sub-optimal lists with tons of models for CSM too.

Perhaps not everyone really worries how competitive something is and just plays the game with models and builds that they like, I could be wrong though...

A bit like what you could do with CSM then?

No....Not really - I dont like what I see TBH

bogalubov wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.

When will I get them GW?

Stick a mark on them and presto?

So giving my terminators the mark of khorne will give them fearless, furious charge, WS5, rage and counter attack? Or Tzeench giving all of them ap3 bolters and a sorc terminator? Slaneesh give access to sonic blasters/blastmasters/doom sirens? Nurgle gives FNP and poison ccw? damn.. my book must have had plethora of misprints. Perhaps if I send GW's Super Helpful Internet Translator an email, it will show me the way to decode the incorrect information in my codex to use them properly.

And having daemons as 'battle brothers' literally does nothing. Cant have IC's join units from one codex to another thanks to instability, AoE buffs from daemons don't effect CSM. Literally the only thing it does is give you a cheap-ish way for a divination psyker, or some plaguebearers. If you reverse the effect, all you're doing is inviting your CSM marked units to be hit by the random warp storm table which has killed 2/3 of my army on turn 1-2 in the games I've used them in so far.

And on the whole "just use Codex marines instead" comment, whats the point in having the chaos book in the first place if everyone should just use the loyalist book? 'Ohai dudes, I'm tired of not being able to field my Night Lords raptor army, so I'm gonna use the BA dex instead. This makes my 'raptors' cheaper, gives them more options, and the option for psyker dreadnoughts for some reason! Also random super pre-heresy jumpy apothecaries that make them all more terror-y or something... legitimization YAY!!!'
^utter crap^


The mere fact that khorne berserkers cost more than death company, are worse in CC, and dont get FNP/mass PW/dedicated LR/a bajillion pistol options/relentless bolters if they feel like it is quite annoying. for their cost berserkers should be the beat-all-end-all CC murdermachines for MEQ. Nothing from any power armor book should EVER outclass them. Literally the only thing berserkers have over their angry black-armored doppelgangers is the potential to be scoring. woo. hoo. my dudes what want to run up and hit things can hold objectives. suuuuuper....

Lovepug13 wrote:
No....Not really - I dont like what I see TBH

The thread is about the lack of power that the CSM codex has, so I was addressing the codex from that perspective.

If you don't like chaos marine models that GW made, that's a perfectly fine opinion to have. However, the thread is not about whether CSM models are aesthetically pleasing. It's about whether the CSM codex is underpowered. In that regard I think the codex is perfectly average.

bogalubov wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.

When will I get them GW?

Stick a mark on them and presto?

The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.

I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?

I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.

I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.

If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.

Did you ever play 3rd? Or 3.5? Like I said earlier my complain isn't that it's not a competitive book but more the lack of diversity compared to what we had in the past and the more recent codex updates. Slapping a mark on a character is not the same as giving terminators, dreads, or havocs sonic weapons or say inferno bolts. It all just seems bland, psychic powers and army wide abilities aren't very fun or competitive, and independent characters lack customization of other codexes, an IMO I think all the new units (mutilators, Heldrakes, forge/mauler fiends, and Warp talons) are all pretty lame and the models seem silly. Is it negative? Yes. Is it just my opinion? Yes.

I feel however that much of that is propped up by the Heldrake and perhaps a couple other units, while armies built without such units tend to be significantly less capable.

The mere fact that khorne berserkers cost more than death company, are worse in CC, and dont get FNP/mass PW/dedicated LR/a bajillion pistol options/relentless bolters if they feel like it is quite annoying. for their cost berserkers should be the beat-all-end-all CC murdermachines for MEQ. Nothing from any power armor book should EVER outclass them. Literally the only thing berserkers have over their angry black-armored doppelgangers is the potential to be scoring. woo. hoo. my dudes what want to run up and hit things can hold objectives. suuuuuper....

I think comparing units across codexes and expecting a perfect 1:1 comparison is not productive.

A grey hunter is better than a chaos marine, but that's not really relevant. The chaos marine still has a role to play in your army. He's cheap power armor, he scores and he can be customized. The reason why the chaos marine might not be that great is that the chaos codex has access to cultists who for the fraction of the cost can sit on an objective just as well. When evaluating a unit in a codex it's important to ask whether the unit fulfills a role there, not whether some other codex does it better.

Besides, death company is not very good in this edition either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I feel however that much of that is propped up by the Heldrake and perhaps a couple other units, while armies built without such units tend to be significantly less capable.

Couldn't you say that about Necrons with night scythes and annihilation barges? Without those units the codex would not be as strong.

I'm pretty sure the overall theme so far is that aside from a token few units, most things in the latest Chaos Space Marines codex are lack lustre, overpriced, just plain bad or a combination of the three. Is it such a huge thing wanting to have units that are comparable to that others have in terms of cost/benefit of taking the unit? Sure you can take 20 PA bodies per squad. A single shot from a vindicator will see them running.

I, personally, want to at least have the ability to make my berserkers be really good in CC. And I mean really good. The kind of good where if more than 5 make it to your non-th/ss squad, you're in serious trouble, and not just for the first turn of combat. I'd love the option to have berserker terminators. I would love the option to be able to gain some sort of bonus to init/ws/attacks etc in the challenges I am forced to be a part of. I would SUPER love it if my general groups of CSM had all of the benefits of being fearless with none of the drawbacks. I'd love it if any of my units with the fear rule ever got to make use of it. I'd love it if I didn't have to take heldrakes/oblits in half my lists so the part of my army that I actually want to use can do their job ever so slightly more effectively than their loyalist or xenos counterparts. I don't even want all of these things. Just 1 would make me happy. seriously.

bogalubov wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.

When will I get them GW?

Stick a mark on them and presto?

The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.

I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?

I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.

I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.

If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.

I want my plague terminators with FNP and poisoned melee attacks, sonic guns, blastmasters, and doom sirens on bikes, Chain axe raptors with FC and fearless, and Inferno heavy bolters with a 4+ invulnerable save and lead around by a sorcerer.

When will I get them?

 StarHunter25 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the overall theme so far is that aside from a token few units, most things in the latest Chaos Space Marines codex are lack lustre, overpriced, just plain bad or a combination of the three. Is it such a huge thing wanting to have units that are comparable to that others have in terms of cost/benefit of taking the unit? Sure you can take 20 PA bodies per squad. A single shot from a vindicator will see them running.

I, personally, want to at least have the ability to make my berserkers be really good in CC. And I mean really good. The kind of good where if more than 5 make it to your non-th/ss squad, you're in serious trouble, and not just for the first turn of combat. I'd love the option to have berserker terminators. I would love the option to be able to gain some sort of bonus to init/ws/attacks etc in the challenges I am forced to be a part of. I would SUPER love it if my general groups of CSM had all of the benefits of being fearless with none of the drawbacks. I'd love it if any of my units with the fear rule ever got to make use of it. I'd love it if I didn't have to take heldrakes/oblits in half my lists so the part of my army that I actually want to use can do their job ever so slightly more effectively than their loyalist or xenos counterparts. I don't even want all of these things. Just 1 would make me happy. seriously.

The heavy support section has only 1 unit that is garbage. The defiler.

The fast attack section also only has 1 unit that is garbage. The warp talons.

The HQ section is also great with a lot of variety and customization and a few good old standby characters.

The elites section has a few whiffs like mutilators and chosen who are geared for close combat but specialize in shooting.

The troops have options as well.

Bezerkers are not very good and cost too much for a unit that you anticipate losing a chunk out of before they hit the enemy. But to be fair, there are few units that do assault well in 6th. My 4 squads of bezerkers certainly weep for that. But that's the way this edition is like and 5th wasn't too different.

 Kain wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.

When will I get them GW?

Stick a mark on them and presto?

The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.

I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?

I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.

I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.

If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.

I want my plague terminators with FNP and poisoned melee attacks, sonic guns, blastmasters, and doom sirens on bikes, Chain axe raptors with FC and fearless, and Inferno heavy bolters with a 4+ invulnerable save and lead around by a sorcerer.

When will I get them?

get rid of the lame overpowered dragobot and give them some of that stuff. atleast it sounds interesting.

One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.

 Kain wrote:
One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.

Only if the SW gets a special character called "The Turkeyborn"

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.

Only if the SW gets a special character called "The Turkeyborn"

"FUS RO EMPRAH!"

Alternatively "WOLF WOLF WOLF"

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.

Only if the SW gets a special character called "The Turkeyborn"

"FUS RO EMPRAH!"

Alternatively "WOLF WOLF WOLF"

"I used to be a guardsman like you, but then I took a splinter to the knee"

I think the book is awesome. People, stop crying and gobuy some heldrakes and plague marines

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I think the book is awesome. People, stop crying and gobuy some heldrakes and plague marines

See, here's the thing. I want to play iron warriors, I love nurgle I get that in this codex he is the God of choice. But I don't think with all of the fluff all of the differing legions I should be piegon holed into a HAVE TO play this way idea. I mean, look at vulkan hestan from the salamanders, he gives the ENTIRE army a huge bonus. NONE of our HQ's grant anything army wide except making cult choices better. No benefit in taking them other than you can spam them. Half of them are so over prices or under powered that taking them means you won't even be giving your opponent a decent fight. I fought tau last week and his OVERWATCH almost killed my maulerfiend from ONE squad. Granted, it's a fast cheap unit but come on now...

I get that we have a huge varying codex, when I first picked it up I was overwhelmed with the choices and the way you can kit things out? Stellar. I even posted on dakka "man this codex has everything! I need to design units to do this and that and this and that!" but after playing them? Man termis are doody when faced with space marine termis, daemon princes are almost so unreliable that it's not worth blowing 1/4 your armies points on one. Our helbrutes are firing platforms at best. My analogy about them being the space marines orks equivalent is the best I can come up with. When the entire codex is propped up on MAYBE 10 units out of a 40 or so unit codex...just a little silly.

I'm not in ANY way saying it's unplayable I'm merely saying there are a lot of things I find that are...lackluster. I'm not asking for a god tier codex, but I'm asking for better than mediocre and certain units being a MUST HAVE in the list...

Chaos marines, overwhelming!

I seriously think people are complaining too much.

Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.

bogalubov wrote:

Couldn't you say that about Necrons with night scythes and annihilation barges? Without those units the codex would not be as strong.

Not as strong, but they're also not propping it up. Take those away and Necrons still have a ton of solid units and abilities. Take away the Heldrake and the powerlevel on the CSM book drops dramatically.

bogalubov wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
No....Not really - I dont like what I see TBH

The thread is about the lack of power that the CSM codex has, so I was addressing the codex from that perspective.

If you don't like chaos marine models that GW made, that's a perfectly fine opinion to have. However, the thread is not about whether CSM models are aesthetically pleasing. It's about whether the CSM codex is underpowered. In that regard I think the codex is perfectly average.

My comments are not about the models being aesthetically pleasing.....I feel it doesn't give me the opportunity to represent what I want on the table through lack of associated rules as discussed and outlined by others as well as myself.

For me, it is underwhelming because of that and because troops such as 1k sons etc are not that great, my comments are just as valid as yours.

 gpfunk wrote:
I seriously think people are complaining too much.

Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.

I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.

 Kain wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
I seriously think people are complaining too much.

Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.

I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.

Maybe if Daemonic Possession was actually good, but 15 points + Mark isn't so hot unless the Mark is good enough to make up for both costs.

Daemonic Possession also needs a major upgrade as well, it's just not good at all and nobody takes it, much like most of the vehicle upgrade list except for one or two exceptions.

But yeah, even Forgeworld adds friggen vehicle marks, and yet Kelly missed the opportunity....

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
I seriously think people are complaining too much.

Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.

I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.

Maybe if Daemonic Possession was actually good, but 15 points + Mark isn't so hot unless the Mark is good enough to make up for both costs.

Daemonic Possession also needs a major upgrade as well, it's just not good at all and nobody takes it, much like most of the vehicle upgrade list except for one or two exceptions.

But yeah, even Forgeworld adds friggen vehicle marks, and yet Kelly missed the opportunity....

Hell, the dawn of way series had vehicle marks! This is what I mean lol and the only vehicle taking daemonic possession is a vinducator...its a stupid upgrade and just like orkz how much more crap out of this book can we make completely dice based. Eben daemon princes have a "don't press dat" in the form of a DAEMON weapon. Just a silly silly book that if you have doodoo dice rolls...well you can go sit with khorne and tzeench in time out.

I seriously think people are complaining too much.

I think the sheer amount of complaints STILL coming out so long after the initial release points to the fact that while some like it, this really is a generally underwhelming effort on GW's part. Look at the other 6th ed books. They all had their share of complaint threads when they first came out, but nothing out of the ordinary for new releases and the complaint threads died away quickly. Sure there may still be little complaints here and there about this or that, but none of the 6th ed books so far have managed to garner the vitriol that CSM has and that's really saying something IMO.