Chaos marines, underwhleming?

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**Spetulhu**

What really strikes me as odd is that it's named Codex Chaos Space Marines. Why? The toughest armies my CSM mate has thrown at me have exactly one CSM, a HQ guy with an AP3 Torrent weapon. The rest is cultists as troops because they're cheap and take objectives just fine, and then heavy hitters from other slots.

"The mighty Chaos Space Marine and his army".

**CthuluIsSpy**

Kain wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Kain wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No.

Are plague marine terminators a thing?

What would be a cult raptor, anyway?

Typhus wears Terminator armor

Also

According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.

I say feth that, that is stupid.

And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

I'm immortalizing this typo.

Also, there is a precedent for Rubric Raptors.

Goddammit...I hate mornings >.<

Anyway, aren't rubric terminators 2 wounded psykers? I think I have a theory

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:
What really strikes me as odd is that it's named Codex Chaos Space Marines. Why? The toughest armies my CSM mate has thrown at me have exactly one CSM, a HQ guy with an AP3 Torrent weapon. The rest is cultists as troops because they're cheap and take objectives just fine, and then heavy hitters from other slots.

"The mighty Chaos Space Marine and his army".

Because most of the codex is composed of CSM? Cultists are just one unit. Everyone else is a marine.

**Pilau Rice**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Kain wrote:
gpfunk wrote:
I seriously think people are complaining too much.

Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.

I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.

Maybe if Daemonic Possession was actually good, but 15 points + Mark isn't so hot unless the Mark is good enough to make up for both costs.

Daemonic Possession also needs a major upgrade as well, it's just not good at all and nobody takes it, much like most of the vehicle upgrade list except for one or two exceptions.

But yeah, even Forgeworld adds friggen vehicle marks, and yet Kelly missed the opportunity....

I thought it was stupid that a vehicle which is possessed by a Daemon doesn't actually get the Daemon USR, that alone would make it worth the cost. All the other Daemonic Possessed vehicles have the USR, why not something with the special rule that you paid for.

The Codex is ok but it is full of missed opportunity, hopefully we will get supplements or articles in White Dwarf giving new rules giving us more ways to play.

**Kain**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Kain wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Kain wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No.

Are plague marine terminators a thing?

What would be a cult raptor, anyway?

Typhus wears Terminator armor

Also

According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.

I say feth that, that is stupid.

And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

I'm immortalizing this typo.

Also, there is a precedent for Rubric Raptors.

Goddammit...I hate mornings >.<

Anyway, aren't rubric terminators 2 wounded psykers? I think I have a theory

.

Nope. Terminator aspiring sorcerers mayhaps, but Rubric Terminators?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Well, those goes that theory. I thought the reason they didn't want rubric terminators around was because they had two wounds, and that would be copying GK. They''d then have to find a way to price them so that both GK players and CSM would be happy.

**Puscifer**

For people who say that this Dex can't produce legion specific stuff is dead wrong... To a point.

You can make a passable version of the legions.

Iron Warriors.
Take a ton of Heavy Stuff and a Warp Smith or two. Daemon vehicles a plenty. I'm considering running this as the army has a formidable amount of dakka.

Alpha Legion.
Using Huron as a counts as Alpha Legion lord, he can infiltrate units and you can use cultists to bulk up the army.

Night Lords.
We have a player locally who has a an Exalted Warband from the Night Lords trilogy. He uses a Dark Apostle for Talos and a Chosen Squad for First Claw. It works and looks brilliant on the table.

Word Bearers.
Ok, this one is harder to do. I'd probably go with using CSM as allies to a CD list.

The Cult Legions are fethed though. No Cult Terminators or vehicles makes me sad.

**Kain**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, those goes that theory. I thought the reason they didn't want rubric terminators around was because they had two wounds, and that would be copying GK. They''d then have to find a way to price them so that both GK players and CSM would be happy.

That being said, a slow and purposeful jump jet unit like a rubric raptor would be...amusing...

**CthuluIsSpy**

Puscifer wrote:
For people who say that this Dex can't produce legion specific stuff is dead wrong... To a point.

You can make a passable version of the legions.

Iron Warriors.
Take a ton of Heavy Stuff and a Warp Smith or two. Daemon vehicles a plenty. I'm considering running this as the army has a formidable amount of dakka.

Word Bearers.
Ok, this one is harder to do. I'd probably go with using CSM as allies to a CD list.

Exactly. You can even take IG allies for the basilisks.

For the WB, I would imagine CD allies and Dark Apostles will do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kain wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, those goes that theory. I thought the reason they didn't want rubric terminators around was because they had two wounds, and that would be copying GK. They''d then have to find a way to price them so that both GK players and CSM would be happy.

That being said, a slow and purposeful jump jet unit like a rubric raptor would be...amusing...

That's probably why they don't exist.

I think raptors were one of the units TS weren't allowed to use in the 3.5 dex, iirc.

There is still nothing to stop you from making TS raptors. They just won't have the rubric.

**ZebioLizard2**

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.

**CthuluIsSpy**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.

I was not aware the BA were members of the World Eaters legion. How very enlightening.

**ZebioLizard2**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.

I was not aware the BA were members of the World Eaters legion. How very enlightening.

Considering the Black Rage they get, they get pretty close.

Even have a powerful melee troop unit that can model well off Bezerkers, called the Death Company.

**CthuluIsSpy**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.

I was not aware the BA were members of the World Eaters legion. How very enlightening.

Considering the Black Rage they get, they get pretty close.

Even have a powerful melee troop unit that can model well off Bezerkers, called the Death Company.

Heh, good point. That still isn't really the point; have the world eaters used raptors at all? Can Raptors even take a mark of khorne?

**ZebioLizard2**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.

I was not aware the BA were members of the World Eaters legion. How very enlightening.

Considering the Black Rage they get, they get pretty close.

Even have a powerful melee troop unit that can model well off Bezerkers, called the Death Company.

Heh, good point. That still isn't really the point; have the world eaters used raptors at all? Can Raptors even take a mark of khorne?

Yes, and they do indeed have jump pack troops, they also even have troops that prefer to shoot from a distance. They aren't like pure footsloggers (Though they do have a defiler variant they can ride)

**CthuluIsSpy**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.

Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?

Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.

I was not aware the BA were members of the World Eaters legion. How very enlightening.

Considering the Black Rage they get, they get pretty close.

Even have a powerful melee troop unit that can model well off Bezerkers, called the Death Company.

Heh, good point. That still isn't really the point; have the world eaters used raptors at all? Can Raptors even take a mark of khorne?

Yes, and they do indeed have jump pack troops, they also even have troops that prefer to shoot from a distance. They aren't like pure footsloggers (Though they do have a defiler variant they can ride)

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. Very annoying then that there is no khornate version of the raptor :/

**MarsNZ**

lazarian wrote:
How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.

With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.

Ergo were left with a few points

- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.

- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.

- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.

- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.

- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.

Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.

Have you even read this thread? The OP isn't having a 'tizzy' as you so maturely put it. He's pointing out the sheer volume of underwhelming choices we have. A SnP 70ppm unit (max 3) that can't shoot is nothing but a points trap. Landraiders are simply there to fill up half a page in the codex. An elite section that's packed with units that are hardly considered elite, but if you want to spend up in an HQ slot you can make them overcosted troops... whoopee. I can get the same mileage out of appropriately marked CSM. It's a topic about missed opportunities, of which there are many. You're implying we wanted 6 codicies? Maybe some CSM players do, but the majority just expected a little more. Not a few auto-include units and a whole lot of noob-trap units or "Oh, what were they thinking with this unit" units. Also there are 2 troop options, one of which (cultists) looks like it took all of 2 minutes to write up.

Your suggestion to use an old edition codex (or a loyalist one) to get a fluffy army only serves to reinforce his point.

**Tycho**

With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.

I have yet to see a single thread go this way. Not one. The vast majority of people are complaining about fuctionality. Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex. Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.

Have you even read this thread?

No. He has not. Or he has a reading comprehension issue. There's someone in every one of these threads that comes in 3 or 4 pages into the discussion and types up a huge rant about how we are all just bitching because we "wanted Grey Knights" level of power and then says something utterly ridiculous like "How can you complain about anything! You have marks!". If I'm being honest here, I stopped reading his post after the paragraph I quoted, but I'm willing to bet he said that or something very similar ('Crons is also sometimes subbed in for GK).

..Chaos Space Marine players will never, ever be happy.

CSM players want to tbe like loyalists in that they get six different codices, basically.

You haven't been reading these threads either I don't think. I'm a CSM player (although as of a few weeks agomy CSM have officially been shelved for a while) and I have been happy with most of our books. I hate this one. I also haven't seen ANYONE say that we need 6 different books. The vast majority of players who wanted Legion specific armies all say they would have been more than satisfied with one page of extra rules. Personally, I am happy with one book. I just wish they would have actually finished it before making me pay $50 for it.

**Spetulhu**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
What really strikes me as odd is that it's named Codex Chaos Space Marines. Why? The toughest armies my CSM mate has thrown at me have exactly one CSM, a HQ guy with an AP3 Torrent weapon. The rest is cultists as troops because they're cheap and take objectives just fine, and then heavy hitters from other slots.

"The mighty Chaos Space Marine and his army".

Because most of the codex is composed of CSM? Cultists are just one unit. Everyone else is a marine.

Everyone else is a marine, but it feels like they're in the book just so people that had them can continue using them. CSM HQ, 2 cultist units, a few Helldrakes and Forge/Maulerfiends, then ally in a Herald of Tzeentch and a maxed unit of Pink Horrors. Works so much better.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Tycho wrote:
Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.

Templars called, they want a word with you.

**CthuluIsSpy**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tycho wrote:
Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.

Templars called, they want a word with you.

Templars are still in 4th ed. They are two editions behind.

**Tycho**

Templars called, they want a word with you.

Fair enough, but like CthuluIsSpy said - the Templars are two editions old and were created in a time when getting into CC was MUCH easier. It only serves to further illustrate how poorly done the new Chaos book is that it has so glaring a weakness in common with a book that is two editions old.

Now, if the new Templars book comes out and none of this is fixed in their book either, I will revise that statement and we can share a drink over our common issues. lol

**StarTrotter**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tycho wrote:
Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.

Templars called, they want a word with you.

Great emprah! Still no new Templar codex... anyways... not really sure how the first 6th edition codex should feel about that xD. Congrats chaos! You got an update! Now those Thousand Sons that have been terrible for a long time? Still bad. Berserkers which were okay last codex? Make them more expensive than death company (I believe correct me if i am wrong) and make them worse than death company (which aren't working well themselves). And stating a 6th edition codex suffers a terrible universal special rule and lacks a means of actually getting to the enemy (pick a fragile non-open topped rhino or a schizoid land raider that is overpriced and a terrible way to transport seekers) is the same as a 4th edition codex doesn't make it better xD (on a side note part of me is somewhat expecting black templars becoming a supplement book)

**Gharron**

lazarian wrote:
How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.

With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.

Ergo were left with a few points

- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.

- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.

- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.

- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.

- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.

Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.

I don't think I've represented myself as "being in a tizzy" by any means. I felt like there were so many units in our book that just...weren't living up to what they're supposed to be. Be it on the table, or in the fluff. A berserker should have more than 1 attack base and shouldn't be limited to riding in a tin box hoping he makes it to kill maim burn! I shouldn't be limited to playing only nurgle in a competitive environment because all of the other Gods are at best "meh". Coming from a recently converted orks player I know what it's like to not have decent shooting and nothing but a t shirt save to hope for. I'm not asking for every unit to even BE competitive but they could at least have SOME synergy. I was looking at last edition's codex today in a bookstore here. Everything is the same other than most units LOSING some vital piece (some of them gained things which I'll grant you) but we lost a lot as well. Maybe that's made up for in points cost but I don't think I got into this army thinking "man I sure hope my guys are 13 points a piece and in power armor" I got into it thinking "gah I'm gonna pay 60 points a man and they're going to absolutely destroy!" Then I look at Khorne berserkers and the 1k sons and I almost added my skull to the skull throne. Look at ANY of the "guides" or "articles" people have written about this army. I can think of 10 units or configuration of units that are a no go right off the bat. MOST of them being core elements to why you would even play chaos marines in the first place!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/534588.page#5762225
This is a thread I started this week, asking for help in moving my list forward. Look at the advice people have for me. (I'm not in anyway bashing them or their advice) but it's all the same thing. Buy more helturkeys and more plague marines. G.G

**kb305**

It's easy to tell a book is crap when you have to counts as everything in it to get anywhere. Or even counts as a whole different codex.

lol. nice suggestions. iron warriors=plague marines.
As someone highlights, GW wants to jam hellturkeys and dinobots down our throat, the two units i would never consider buying because i hate the models.

**Gharron**

kb305 wrote:
It's easy to tell a book is crap when you have to counts as everything in it to get anywhere. Or even counts as a whole different codex.

lol. nice suggestions. iron warriors=plague marines.
As someone highlights, GW wants to jam hellturkeys and dinobots down our throat, the two units i would never consider buying because i hate the models.

I wouldn't have started csm if I knew deathguard were the only legion getting ANY of gw's love. aside from the 2 kits IW got =/

**bogalubov**

Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.

Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.

Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?

But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.

**Quintinus**

bogalubov wrote:

Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?

But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.

The cheapest configuration possible for your idea is 625 points. If you want to upgrade your Khorne Lord (which you will since otherwise he will suck hard) or give your Berzerkers any upgrades (lol) then the unit will quickly approach the 700 point mark.

That has to be one of the worst deathstars in the entire game too. You're just a couple Ordnance blasts away from losing vast swathes of your deathstar.

**Gharron**

bogalubov wrote:
Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.

Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.

Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?

But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.

"But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas."

The tau say hello. Ya know, when they overwatch that ENTIRE UNIT. Dude, you may not even get the charge off, they overwatch you if you do. That unit is so killy that you're standing there they shoot you to pieces AGAIN and the next turn when you charge? THEY ALL OVERWATCH YOU AGAIN. That's the thing, you keep saying that everything in the codex is awesome and great and it's clearly not. Tell ya what, hang on.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/02/24/tactics-final-chaos-space-marine-breakdown/

That's the breakdown of bloodkittens. for this year. Notice how small that ttop tier is?

**Naw**

I suspect CSM codex was written for 5th edition, but publishing was delayed. ..not that it would make a lot of sense under those rules.

I have tried my BA in 6th. They just won't work too well now. I mostly face Tau, Necron, IG and Eldar. Wonder what they have in common? Oh right, it is the standing back and shooting

**bogalubov**

Gharron wrote:
bogalubov wrote:
Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.

Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.

Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?

But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.

"But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas."

The tau say hello. Ya know, when they overwatch that ENTIRE UNIT. Dude, you may not even get the charge off, they overwatch you if you do. That unit is so killy that you're standing there they shoot you to pieces AGAIN and the next turn when you charge? THEY ALL OVERWATCH YOU AGAIN. That's the thing, you keep saying that everything in the codex is awesome and great and it's clearly not. Tell ya what, hang on.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/02/24/tactics-final-chaos-space-marine-breakdown/

That's the breakdown of bloodkittens. for this year. Notice how small that ttop tier is?

I haven't said that every unit is awesome. But I have tried to provide ways to use some overlooked units.

For the most part my argument has not been to champion the chaos codex as the end all, be all of codexes. I've tried to show that the codex is on similar power levels to other codexes from 6th edition and that the world is not falling.

We did not get every wish fulfilled in terms of the book, but it is still playable. In terms of wish fulfillment for other codexes, you can find a similar, parallel thread about the awful the Eldar codex in this same forum. That book is also descent. Not every unit is great and some vary from situational to awful (banshees). That's just how codexes are.

As for you ending the argument with linking to TastyTaste's opinion of the chaos codex. He is also just one person who is expressing his opinion on the internet. Just because he has a blog doesn't really make his opinion any more valid than mine. I've actually played him twice, both times to a draw. Great guy, but I won't just take his word for everything.

So I urge people to go out and try some units that are considered great. Try to find a way to use them. If you still don't like the codex, you can sit out this version until the next update in 5-6 years. It's just not likely that they will give you everything you want at that point either.

As for assault units being difficult to use. That applies to everyone. Not just chaos. This is a shooty edition, just like the last one was, but even worse.

**AlmightyWalrus**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tycho wrote:
Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.

Templars called, they want a word with you.

Templars are still in 4th ed. They are two editions behind.

Righteous Zeal was updated for 6th edition and promptly ruined our last decent troops choice. Templars can only snap fire Quadguns and Icarus lascannons if they take a single casualty in the firing unit. Righteous Zeal was supposed to be an advantage; the changes in 6th ed turned it into a yoke.