Had a look and can't really find much up to date Blood Angels stuff, was looking for a large 6th ed tactics thread like most other armies have, can't seem to find one. Sorry if there is one somewhere obvious and i've missed it.

Anyway, Blood Angels. I'm planning on a new 40k project and will probably go Marines (do various stuff, allies and what not just to have a nice variety) and want to start with Blood Angels mainly because of Death Company.

Firstly, i'm not looking to be ultra competitive or anything, but would like an army that isn't an auto-lose in a large percentage of games. So what do Blood Angels do best at the moment considering the recent codex releases.

Death Company. Ideally i'd like to have a squad in a Storm Raven, because that'd be cool. How would it be best to utilise this at 1750 points? I'd be open to just using them as allies in another Marine army if that was better.

Anything tactics wise BA, Death Company or BA allied or as allies with other Marine codexes would be great!

I'm inclined to go with the 11th company guys and staple Tau onto BA to plug holes in the codex. Of course, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just use pure Tau, but that's another story.

I play against a pretty good BA player regularly, and he's toyed around with various delivery methods for Death Company. I have to say, the most annoying to face is just a good old fashioned drop pod full of DC right in my face turn 1. It pretty much forces me to deal with them immediately, which is annoying.

I'm against Stormravens as transports anyway, as I think they are far better as gunships. On top of that, I would want to have my DC on the board threatening units immediately, and the potential for bad reserve rolls could keep two killer units (Raven and DC) off the board for 3 turns.

The drop pod method has some flaws, especially with Eldar AP 2 flamers. The main problem I have is that my BA lists can easily deal with a single squad of DC dropped off, or even a Fragnought plus DC. It's okay to ignore the rest of the BA to deal with those units, because of the rest of the list usually isn't that good or scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It doesn't help that even naked DC in a drop pod are 250+ points. And you are dropping them into rapid fire range, flamer range, etc. I'm basically all LR all the time for DC now. It's far, far from perfect. I'm not contending that. But I want all my DC to be able to hit. Not just send them in as a 250 pt distraction for a turn.

Hadn't thought about a Land Raider to be honest, even though I like them. Would a Crusader or Redeemer be better to allow for some up close support fire? Don't really need anti tank LCs right up close....

Land Raider Crusader, can fit 16 in it, so 15DC plus a character if required. Lots of bolter fire, plus TL Assault Cannons and a multi-melta for good measure. Great fun to be had.

Uh, 15 DC + Chaplain + LRC is around 650 points minimum.. Pass.

Main problem with DC is that they don't score for some inane reason since other "blood thirsty" unit score such as Berserkers. If they were a scoring unit you'd have some actual troop options without having to clog up your FOC with Sang priests.

Alas.. not for another 5 years.

If they take 5 years to put out a BA codex, I'll be out of this hobby for sure. There's this thing called Starcraft where the devs *do* care about game balance.

It will be out before Christmas in 2014, I'd guess. After C:SM, Orks, and Nids are off the table (the rumored next three), only the Sisters and BT would be before us in line to get a new book. Even throwing in 5 or 6 mini-dexes (since it doesn't appear that those will occupy a months release all by themselves), I think we should get a release inside of 18 months at the current rate.

Forgot Space Wolves. And Dark Eldar.

No I didn't. Honestly, why would they go first? We clearly need it more, and at least DE are much newer (not sure of SW).

I have a feeling they will be first. I've seen the date Q1/Q2 2015 a couple places on the internets. GW doesn't give a crap how bad we need it.

I've taken to running a 6 man DC squad with 3 axes in a godhammer LR. But I use my LR and my stormraven for anti tank. Honestly I'd be happy if someone drop podded DC right next to me they should kill them first anyways. And while they can be effective from a Raven the potential for death added to a turn 3 charge at the earliest make it tough to do very well with.

The DC get 15 str 5 ap- attacks and 15 Str 6 ap2 attacks on the charge, which is pretty good to muderize most things. With no chaplin you save points and IC cannot be pseudo saved by a challenge. much more than that is over kill on the first charge. however more DC will give some staying power for the second or if you are luck third charge.

I put a talon DC dread in the Raven to drop off somewhere tactical. If the raven gets shot down its an auto pen on it but 50% it does only a hull point due to ignoring stunned and shaken. (it gets shot down way less than you would think)

As far as allies go, I've used codex marines, IG and Tau.

C:SM just allow some decent ICs, Null zone and Gate.
IG gives cheap vendettas, super cheap large amounts of scoring units, and the ability to stick a BA libby in a blob squad. I enjoy running leman russes as well but a few fast vindicators kill better but are less survivable. A 65 point Marbo is decent too.
Tau is what I'm playing with now, but I run them differently than I would with full tau army, you just don't have the points even at 1850 or 2000 to fit the BA goodies that you want and run a gunline style Tau element, Right now I run 20 kroot outflanking with a hound, And an Iridium commander with 10 gun drones. I'm planning on finding points(and dollars) for a riptide next. So far it has really worked out well.

First0f0ne wrote:
I've taken to running a 6 man DC squad with 3 axes in a godhammer LR. But I use my LR and my stormraven for anti tank. Honestly I'd be happy if someone drop podded DC right next to me they should kill them first anyways. And while they can be effective from a Raven the potential for death added to a turn 3 charge at the earliest make it tough to do very well with.

The DC get 15 str 5 ap- attacks and 15 Str 6 ap2 attacks on the charge, which is pretty good to muderize most things. With no chaplin you save points and IC cannot be pseudo saved by a challenge. much more than that is over kill on the first charge. however more DC will give some staying power for the second or if you are luck third charge.

This I can see, but I might swap an axe for a fist, and one for a power sword. Fist for vehicles and high toughness daemons, and sword for other CC units that have decent armor. Another benefit of not have the chaplain in this case is that when they assault, they are more likely to get stuck in combat so they can't be shot at, and still have enough power to finish things off in the second round.

So some content rather than cry cry want new codex.

BA's still have a few spoiler lists they can run based on current meta that will upset quite a few opposing armies.

Let's look at what's passable for the points first.

-Basic Death Company are still reasonable at 20ppm, 6 attacks per model. Do they blend? Yes.
-Frag-a-naughts.
-Discount Assault Squads
-Dedicated Landraiders
-Attack Bikes
-Meltabomb Vanguard
-Divination Librarians
-Sternguard with FNP
-Bikes with FNP

Probably the #1 current spoiler list they can run is Land Raider heavy, which runs directly counter to the current lean towards the glut of Strength 7 and Plasma>Melta. Min assault squads provide the discount for 215 point standard Land Raiders, TWin Linked Lascannons for rerolls on Fliers. 3 scoring units and 3 Raiders for <1000 points, annoying for a lot of armies, and leaves points to play with. I like Bike Libby+Bike Priest+2 units of MM Attack Bikes to round out for 535 points, and you're still sub 1500.

Another option is Drop-Pod rush, where the key is to order your pods so that you front load as much as possible, probably the preferred reserve options are 100 point Parachute squads of assault marines (free pod) to claim an objective, and/or dakkanaughts for 155 that pop down to anti-flier. Good firstwave opitions are tri-melta Assault squads (sarge w/2 infernus, meltagun, drop-pod for 140 points) to can-open, with Sternguard+Corbulo, Frag-a-naughts, Bolter DC, etc to shred the non-cans.

Best ally option is probably still Coteaz with a small henchmen squad to score, for his abilities to help with Alpha striking. Lets you add in a Str8 Dakkanaught or a Jump Knight for an alpha list as well.

eg Alpha list

Librarian
Corbulo
Frag-a-Naught, pod
8 Sternguard, some combis, pod
10 Death Company, pod
10 Assault Marines, Sarge 2xinferus, Melta, Flamer, pod
10 Assault Marines, Sarge 2xinferus, Melta, Flamer, pod
5 Assault Marines, pod
5 Assault Marines, pod
Dakka-naught, pod
Dakka-naught, pod

1750 pts:
Reclusiarch = 130 pts
2 LR with 5 man Basic assault squads = 630
1 LRR with 5 man Basic assault squads = 305
1 LRC with 5 man Basic assault squads = 315
1 LRR with 5 man DC w/2 Power Axes = 370

Without expecting it in their list, most armies likely wouldn't have enough fire power for 5 LR's...Necrons with lots of Gauss maybe (although seems most like Tesla). Everything else, just be sure to focus on killing the few units with the firepower to hurt LR. Else, just sit there and light up the enemy, jump out last turn onto objectives.

 invisiblade wrote:
1750 pts:
Reclusiarch = 130 pts
2 LR with 5 man Basic assault squads = 630
1 LRR with 5 man Basic assault squads = 305
1 LRC with 5 man Basic assault squads = 315
1 LRR with 5 man DC w/2 Power Axes = 370

Without expecting it in their list, most armies likely wouldn't have enough fire power for 5 LR's...Necrons with lots of Gauss maybe (although seems most like Tesla). Everything else, just be sure to focus on killing the few units with the firepower to hurt LR. Else, just sit there and light up the enemy, jump out last turn onto objectives.

While *VERY* effective, it's also very cheesy and not likely to make you any friends... not to mention it's not really using the DC. If you keep the scoring units inside the tanks, that poor DC unit will get picked on and die in short order. If you keep them in too - why take them at all?!

To the OP - have you considered a full on Astorath list? Big units of basic DC, combination of combat and bolters with a fist/hammer and an infernus pistol or two in each. Throw in some DC dreadnoughts for good measure if you like. This of course means no scoring units, so you have to concentrate on full-on assault instead - which only makes it more fun. It's also actually pretty effective, since most people aren't prepared for it either. And you don't have to worry about taking Priests!

It has some very hard counters, like Heldrakes, and you don't really have anything for flyers, but most of the time you can safely ignore them as you're looking to be in combat as much as possible.

1750 should get you (haven't worked out *exact* costs):
Astorath
2x Chaplain
15x DC (close combat), 1 hammer, 2 infernus pistols
15x DC (close combat), 1 hammer, 2 infernus pistols
15x DC (bolters), 1 hammer
2x DC Dread with meltagun and magna grapple

Man I'd love to run 5 land raiders I do seriously doubt many lists in my meta could handle them. Would they put out enough damage though?

D

Furthermore, who owns 5 land raiders? I don't think the list is good enough to justify the real world money it costs.

 evildrcheese wrote:
Man I'd love to run 5 land raiders I do seriously doubt many lists in my meta could handle them. Would they put out enough damage though?

D

This is the real problem, in my opinion. Who cares if the list is cheesy; nobody should complain about a 6th edition BA list. It would be like whining about Necrons in the days of their old codex or Sisters now.

You're also going to have trouble with scoring. Bailing out on an objective is a great plan, but it runs against the problem that 5, 6 and 7 turn games are all equally likely. The new Eldar codex presents a particular problem, as small units of Jetbikes are now both really, really cost effective and also pack pretty decent firepower for the points. Against a 5 Land Raider list as Eldar, I'd place all my objectives in the open. Good luck holding them with 5 Marines against the new pseudo-rending Shuriken Catapults.

All that said, this probably one of the better BA list ideas I've heard in a while. Man, I miss the days when I could use my six Predators to deny objectives. That more than anything else has shelved my BA.

One final thought: If you want to spam Land Raiders, at least LRCs, Dark Angels is the way to go. Doubling the firepower of Hurricane Bolters goes a decent way towards fixing the firepower issue, and DA Tac Squad + LRC is only 5 points more than BA Assault Squad + LRC, and the Tac Squad's Bolters benefit from the Standard of Devastation too.

I'll stick with the BA. I don't even own a single Land Raider never mind 5! The only reason the 5LR list appeals is because it's so off the wall from anything I've ever run It does look super fun though.

Same BA problems, fun but uncompetitive lists.

D

Thanks everyone for the replies!!

5 Land Raiders sounds funny, but don't imagine i'll be buying 4 more Land Raiders to make it a reality And against armies with a high model count its going to be a really boring game, moving 5 tanks around for a bit, then getting a squad or two out while the opponent moves his 100 infantry or shoots with 15 different units.

@ Super Ready
I had thought about an Astorath list, going full on Death Company is something really appealing as it just is cool. 45 Death Company a couple of Dreads and Astorath would be really nice on the table as well. Well worth considering for me. We're not particularly flyer heavy at my club, more Chaos flying MCs than anything else, as far as I know only 1 person has a helldrake. The necron player with most flyers doesn't use much anymore because of how good they are, and then a few vendettas kicking about. so I wouldn't be too worried about flyers anyway.

@ Halfpast_Yellow
Nice summary there, drop podding is another very tempting option, haven't used a drop pod myself in years but its always nasty dropping things right in front of the enemy.

@first0f0ne
Sounds good, I think its far too tempting to go for bigger Death Company squads, especially when like me, you want to take them because they are cool not because they are necessarily the most ideal thing to be taking. But I can see a small squad in a Land Raider being pretty effective, you have the anti-tank and anti-infantry type stuff all in one there, both elements very powerful and should be able to do there job.

As to 15 in a LRC being too expensive, maybe, but is sure is effective. I often run it in my local, and it causes most opponents to have kittens.

DC may not be scoring in all games (they are in some) but they are denial units.

Full on Astorath list would be great fun I think.

I have done a 2 LR (LRC & LRR) with a DC & Reclusiarch bomb in one, and an assault squad in the other at 1000 points. My opponent didn't like it at all.

Blood angels do a good AV13 wall with all the predator's and baal predators they can take. However, you can't take all those, if you waste points on death company. Death company eat your points up monstrously, both in their upgrades, and in method's to get them to your enemy. Stormraven makes a pretty bad transport for them, as you have to wait till at least turn 2 to get the raven on, and at least turn 3 or 4 to get the death company actually into assault. Which is a waste of the huge amount of points you pay for them, when you only get to actually use them for half the game or less. And they don't score, which is the biggest problem with them.

Here's what I would do. Create your own BA chapter, with the
colour scheme of the death company. Paint assault marines to look like death company. Paint vehicles black with red X's. You get the same flavour, just without the whole "My troops can't score" syndrome.

Hmmm, that 5 LR list looks awesome. If have to do it as BT though. Still doable, as I believe it's the only other marine book that can take LRs as DTs for any unit.

The AV 13 predators don't score either. Just saying.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
DC may not be scoring in all games (they are in some) but they are denial units.

This is either a house rule, or something from a supplement I'm not familiar with. Planetstrike or Cities of Death? But in any case - you'll want to check the Codex again. Bestiary entry for DC, under "Black Rage" - it's stated that they are never scoring.

Nope, look at the battle supplements book, some scenarios state all infantry models are scoring, even if they are not usually able to.

If I remember it correctly, the codex overrules that scenario thing.

I agree, as far as I'm aware codex always trumps other rulebooks and missions etc.

D

No, DC are never able to score, due to the text of "Black Rage".

Would they still be able to grab linebreaker?

I would assume that 'never score" means not score in any way ever. Not trying to screw my own list, I'm just being objective.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Would they still be able to grab linebreaker?

Any denial unit can still get linebreaker, so yes. Anything that can't be a scoring unit can still be a denial unit unless it also has a rule that says it can't be a denial unit.

Could be, though the local I play with they say the scenario overrules codex for that, I have been on defensive in those scenarios and always allow units that never usually score to score, thats the rules where I play.

Even if they can never score in any circumstances (and by extension certain units in other codexs) I still find the DC a great unit. BTW, latest tournament results from World of Warhammer in the UK show BA still doing well. One army max possible battle points at 9 (3 points per victory) and the other 2 at 8.

Perhaps. But in the tournaments I follow, there are no BA and Necron allies show up in ~50% of lists. I don't think the Brits are playing the same game.

Martel732 wrote:
Perhaps. But in the tournaments I follow, there are no BA and Necron allies show up in ~50% of lists. I don't think the Brits are playing the same game.

I think the Brits truely "Forge the Narritive" where as Americans are more concerned with "what units can i win with?"

Yeah. So if people build ad-hoc unoptimized lists, BA can win consistently. This has always been true of any codex in any edition. However, as a past time, this is supposed to be fun. Helldrakes, Vendettas, grey hunters, Night Scythes, Tau shooting and Eldar shooting all make this game very much unfun playing as BA.

In Starcraft, I can punish someone for spamming a single unit. In this game, its impossible with a BA TAC list, because I can't "scout" the opponent like in Starcraft.

As far as i'm aware, tournaments at Warhammer World aren't really very competitive...
And yeah, I think overall 40k in America is more tournament orientated, and therefore more competitive.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Perhaps. But in the tournaments I follow, there are no BA and Necron allies show up in ~50% of lists. I don't think the Brits are playing the same game.

I think the Brits truely "Forge the Narritive" where as Americans are more concerned with "what units can i win with?"

Shame about the English team winning the last ETC since the Brits don't care about winning. No matter how much Jervis tries to claim that Americans have ruined his game by caring about being good at it, it's just not that simple. The mixture of competitive to narrative gamers is about the same in every country.

Jervis actually said that? What a damn fool. There is going to be a competitive/optimizing sub group in every game like this. It's GWs fault for making units like the Vendetta and helldrake, not players' faults for taking them.

Based on listening to the 40K UK podcast, I'm not sure the Brits "forge the narrative" that much. Lots of Tau optimization talk, lots of sabre-spamming IG, lots of Wraith-wing Necrons...

If BAs are doing well at Warhammer World I'd first ask what kind of comp rules are being used, and then I'd wonder if many competitive players go to Warhammer World event, and then I'd say "Good for them. I hope I can replicate such results," but I don't think WW is predictive of looming Blood Angel victories around the globe.

I would be interested to see this tournament winning BA list, just to see the composition and how conventional or unconventional it is.

Who can say? Of course everyone likes to think their tournament is "Harder" or "The best"

I see no reason why WHW would be any less competitive than any other tournament.

But still, I'd rather play for the narrative than tournaments.

I know Martel thinks it is all doom and gloom, but I have had no real problems in 6th so far, then we are playing a large campaign game in my area, which has a very different dynamic to a tournament.

Sure I'd like to see a better codex with cost reductions and some unit buffs but until it happens, work with what you have. Plenty of ways to play BA competitively, sure some people hate the idea of playing a BA shooting army, but remember, they are essentially a codex chapter in organisation so why not?

It's primarily doom and gloom in a TAC situation where your opponents are bringing lists that use the best stuff from the other codices.

Take away those elements, and the BA still work pretty well. Unfortunately, that is the set up of many tournaments and how I have to play them as well. I build a list, put it in my carrier, and see who's at the store that day.

For example, I find the CSM a reasonable opponent when they are not using helldrakes. However, it is asking a lot for a CSM player to not have helldrakes. However, lists like Tau and to a lesser degree Eldar have much better internal balance in their codices and so they are always very hard (bordering unfair) battles for me.

Martel732 what do your lists look like these days?

Well. I have two primary schemes.

1) Jumper/drop pod.

Pure jumpers don't seem to do it. So I hybridized with drop pods. I usually drop a melta sternguard with corb and libby for shield of sanguinius; fragnought; tac squad with plasma. Bigger games will include locator beacons on pods to allow heavy flamer shooty terminators to beam in. Maybe not the most efficient thing ever, but sometimes it makes the pods targets.

Jumpers are 2 squads with libby and priest and some MM attack bikes. Sometime stormraven (MM/LC) depending on points. Sometimes I get squirrely and put SG in this list.

2) Hybrid mech

A bunch of tanks including whirlwind, auto/las, dakka Baal. Some mech ASM with TL HF Razor and flamer and hand flamer in squad. One plasma tac squad with a las/plas razor. SIngle ASM with all my ICs: libby and priest. Stormraven (MM/LC), aegis line. OH, and a biker priest with MM attack bikes and regular bikers with plasma and a MM attack bike attached.

None of these are obviously super great. I'm still looking for super great builds I'm a little limited in models as in I can't field LR spam. But I have a ton of rhinos, razors, etc.

Sound like fun lists at any rate Martel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am going for armor lists, well except against necrons!

So, as a Black Templars player who's thinking of allying in some DC in a Drop Pod to represent Sword Brethren that don't suck, what HQ do you guys reckon I should go with? I've been looking at Tycho; he's not too expensive, gets a combi-melta and has an ignores saves at initiative weapon. It's either that or a Chaplain, but the Chaplain is much more vulnerable to being killed in challenges due to having worse CC weapons.

Use a libby and buff your other squads. DC work best with no IC, imo.

The hybrid mech list can throw out a surprising amount of fire. However, it really suffers against Eldar and Tau lists that just shoot so much more. The cheap 5 man ASM units with flamers in a cheap flame razor are actually quite destructive and serve as surrogate assault troops.

The drop/jumpers really want to see enemies who reserve. I can drop my Sternguard with FNP and shield of sanguinius and be a royal pain. THe more shots I get with the special ammo, the better this list goes.

In nearly every game I lose, I feel I am a unit or two away from victory. I may move my troops very well, and get decent die rolls, but the BA just keep losing the wars of attrition and I fall short of scoring units at the end due to lethality of 6th edition codices.

As an aside, I don't drop DC in the drop list because between the fragnought, sternguards, and tactical squad, I don't feel there's anything I want to drop for them. The tactical squad actually does more damage the turn it arrives and can split into two scoring units. The DC gives me zero scoring units. And the DC can't touch the immediate impact of the other two units either.

I do have a DC in a LR quasi-AV 13 wall list as well. It does exactly what it sounds like. Meched up ASM, and a lots of predator hulls and double furioso with frag cannon. I've had less success with this list, maybe due to the amount of Necrons I face because of the allies rules.

Many people where I play borrow lists from the net. Tourney lists. Many people consider triple helldrake unfair for a "friendly" game, I just sort of think of it as business as usual. A couple of times I have overrun their aegis line to take out their commlink and then watched them roll bad for reserves. BA CAN handle CSM if ~600 pts of fast attack are late to the battle. It's still not easy, though, because plague marines are badasses.

Martel732 wrote:
Use a libby and buff your other squads. DC work best with no IC, imo.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, as a Black Templars player...

Oh, yeah. I forgot. I just see BA and recommend libbies.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Librarian
Corbulo
Frag-a-Naught, pod
8 Sternguard, some combis, pod
10 Death Company, pod
10 Assault Marines, Sarge 2xinferus, Melta, Flamer, pod
10 Assault Marines, Sarge 2xinferus, Melta, Flamer, pod
5 Assault Marines, pod
5 Assault Marines, pod
Dakka-naught, pod
Dakka-naught, pod

Nice thoughts that led to this list, very helpful! Cheers

I am considering making my BA pod-heavy so this (and the commentary leading up to it) was very helpful.

For those recommending DC in a Land Raider... if running a pod list, would you deepstrike that landraider? Perhaps have a homer on one of the other pods to come in off of?

I used a land raider and deep strike it on.

Just had a wacky thought, I don't have the BA Codex available ATM though, so feel free to correct errors.

Astorath - 225

10x Death Company with 45 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

5x Scouts, Camo-cloaks - 90

Assault Squad, 2x Meltagun - 200

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Sanguinary Priest, Jump Pack - 85

1750 points on the nose. 30 FNP über-berzerkers in your deployment zone turn one and another 10 with Astorath incoming across the board could be interesting.

Multiple DC lists can be fun. I ran 2 x 9 man squads with a chaplain in each, Astorath with assault marines and death co Tycho in a Landraider. Was a lot of fun. DC Tycho is a mean S.O.B. but he can have issues with wounding since he's only str 4 and most of the time what you will be fighting is t4 or higher.

I have 15 DC, they have often been game winners for me, clearing (denying) objectives to my opponent by either wiping out his units holding them, or being close enough to deny him the objective.

I am looking at a 3 Baal preds 3 Vindi steel wall with appropriate support. I wouldn't want to play it against Necrons of course, then I would use my rather large infantry force.

The Tau players in my area love masses of firewarriors, I can see a Baal pred wall with Vindi's making life very unpleasant for them.

Yes, DC Tycho is good fun, but why for the love of the Emperor can't he join the DC? Logic fails at GW again.

Based on how the codex's are going at the moment I can see a significant price reduction coming for all MEQ, we will have a good indicator of what will happen with BA when the C:SM comes out soon, and said price reduction would help a great deal.

For the love of the emperor, please our captains get interesting wargear options and not be forced to spend another edition on the hobby shelf.

And yes, why the hell can't DC Tycho join the DC? He's like forest Gump on the DC school bus, "seats taken!" Poor Tycho.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just had a wacky thought, I don't have the BA Codex available ATM though, so feel free to correct errors.

Astorath - 225

10x Death Company with 45 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

5x Scouts, Camo-cloaks - 90

Assault Squad, 2x Meltagun - 200

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Sanguinary Priest, Jump Pack - 85

1750 points on the nose. 30 FNP über-berzerkers in your deployment zone turn one and another 10 with Astorath incoming across the board could be interesting.

I love that list!!

P.S
Is a Blenderioso 2x frag cannons?

Probably blood talons, which I would recommend swapping for fragnoughts.

Without any upgrades on the Death Company, that comes to 1515 according to Battlescribe.
Could always add a Reculsiarch (taking away 1 DC) for fun times.

 rodgers37 wrote:
Without any upgrades on the Death Company, that comes to 1515 according to Battlescribe.
Could always add a Reculsiarch (taking away 1 DC) for fun times.

Just curious, where did I miscalculate?

Your point cost on the Sanguinary Priest is wrong, you list 40 points of random DC upgrades and then list the unit cost as 245, your point cost for Astorath is wrong, and your Assault Squad cost is wrong.

Beyond that, and taking Blood Talons rather than Fragnoughts, it's an iffy concept. I'd ditch the Priest and Scouts in favor of an Honour Guard squad with Jump Packs, correct your point costs, and drop a Death Company squad for some Sternguard in one of those pods so you can kill something on the turn you drop rather than dump 30 MEQs in someone's face and watch your army get lasgunned, shuricatted, and kroot rifled off the table.

I love it when BA players drop DC and talon-dreads in my face. My lists still use meltas over plasmas in most places Especially since they can only drop half of what they bought. My whole army vs half of their army. I like it!

Martel732 wrote:
I love it when BA players drop DC and talon-dreads in my face. My lists still use meltas over plasmas in most places Especially since they can only drop half of what they bought. My whole army vs half of their army. I like it!

You wouldn't be able to bring your entire army to bear against a well-played Drop Pod list though. Local superiority is the entire point of taking Drop Pods in the first place.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I love it when BA players drop DC and talon-dreads in my face. My lists still use meltas over plasmas in most places Especially since they can only drop half of what they bought. My whole army vs half of their army. I like it!

You wouldn't be able to bring your entire army to bear against a well-played Drop Pod list though. Local superiority is the entire point of taking Drop Pods in the first place.

If my opponent doesn't have blast or template weapons, my list is usually stacked on top of itself. I keep the whole mess together for maximum effectiveness. Many BA players have no blast weapons of any kind, especially in a drop list. I can also squish the core units together and make the bubble wrapping units max coherecy to they can't drop in flamers. There is literally no way for a drop pod list to get local superiority against my hybrid mech list. That's one of its strong points . It's just that against Space Wolves or Tyranids it often doesn't matter. :(

It also helps that locations and ownership of objectives means very little to me until about turn 4. Sometimes, mobility does matter. Just not enough against the top lists.

http://youtu.be/_tH-OO0uLS0

His advice applies well to using BA

BA not only have limited access to blast weaponry, we have almost nothing that ignores cover (besides flamers) and our torrent fire weapons are meh.

The premiums BA pay to "appear in the deployment zone' make their model count too low, imo. We don't have 5 demon princes or the Eldar tricks like the Harlequins. And he even mentions the Harlequins won't be nearly as good. I'd like to hear what he says about BA, though.

Also, his scheme means nothing to Necron infantry in nightscythes. They can't be locked down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is this guys BA advice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1T_vWHQBuU

Not impressed. He's not a BA player. He hasn't experienced the pain first hand. He's not qualified, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also a red flag that he claims to have hard games against BA. Either I play against godly players or I'm just slowed.

Well, the new BA DC Apocalypse formation looks like fun,

30 DC, Lemartes, Astorath, DC Tycho, A Chaplain, and 2 Furioso's.......

Though that would mean I have 2 Lemartes figures. Hopefully in the next codex you will be able to take Lemartes without a jump pack, and Corbulo with one......

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Though that would mean I have 2 Lemartes figures. Hopefully in the next codex you will be able to take Lemartes without a jump pack, and Corbulo with one.....

Not terribly likely, given how characters tend to keep static gear and only get options when they have a new model (ie. Marneus and Njal upgrading from power armour to Termie armour).
Plus, you don't get any kind of discount with that bundle so if you're going to order it you might as well pick and choose the bits you want/need.

However, why not convert a 2nd Lemartes to a different Chaplain instead? You could always think of him as Lemartes without a Jump Pack but just use normal Chaplain rules for him...

Martel732 wrote:
Furthermore, who owns 5 land raiders? I don't think the list is good enough to justify the real world money it costs.

*Cough*

That would be Cain who has five perhaps?

Basically the same people who have 5 lema russ tanks or 3 hellturkeys etc.

A friend of mine in NZ had 8 landraiders back in the 90's.



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Yes, Super Ready, I doubt we will be seeing changes like that to Lemartes & Corbulo, but given all the fluff about how the BA all fight to get their hands on jump packs, why wouldn't Corbulo use one?

My DA friend is hoping for DC Terminators in the new codex to take along side his DW Termies.

It would be fun, but can't see it happening myself.

I haven't done this yet, but I think I'll be doing it sometime soon...

Dante with 8 Death Company in a drop pod. Doesn't seem like much, but Dante can tank shooting for the unit and gives the Death Company a much needed Hit and Run boost.

For extra fun, add a locator beacon to the drop pod and have some deep striking terminators in reserve. As the DC numbers dwindle, it gives Dante another decent unit to join...either the Terminators or the Sanguinary Guard that have probably arrived on the scene by then.

Actually, that's not *bad*. It's pricey, though. The achilles heel of the whole damn codex.

Yes, the expense is a problem

I'm not sure why DC need hit and run. It's unlikely that they'll ever not wipe out or make their opponent run unless they're fighting against terminators (in which case you've made a bad move and are going to lose some DC).
Also those 250+ points spent on a 2+ 4++ aren't going to save many of your DC. Plasma is everywhere, and if your expensive warlord is sitting at the front of a DC squad, you're going to have to make a lot of 4++ saves.
Finally, why not just get a landraider and be done with it if you're spending that many points on trying to make DC viable?

 Voidwraith wrote:
Dante with 8 Death Company in a drop pod. Doesn't seem like much, but Dante can tank shooting for the unit and gives the Death Company a much needed Hit and Run boost.

Why have I never thought of this?! I run my DC with Jump Packs - so even more costly - but I always take the DC anyway, and pulling off Hit and Run means pretty much guaranteed Hammer of Wrath. I'll have to drop the Reclusiarch to justify the cost, though. Hmm...

Griddlelol wrote:I'm not sure why DC need hit and run. It's unlikely that they'll ever not wipe out or make their opponent run unless they're fighting against terminators (in which case you've made a bad move and are going to lose some DC).
Also those 250+ points spent on a 2+ 4++ aren't going to save many of your DC. Plasma is everywhere, and if your expensive warlord is sitting at the front of a DC squad, you're going to have to make a lot of 4++ saves.
Finally, why not just get a landraider and be done with it if you're spending that many points on trying to make DC viable?

Because smart opponents will assault your Death Company to take away the extra attack advantage. Also, there's a popular tactic people like to do against strong assault units called "bubble wrap." Hit and Run doesn't let your assault unit get tied down in an assault they don't want to be in.
Hit and Run is just good in general...not sure why a unit that gets +2 attacks on the charge wouldn't want to have it.
As for Dante and plasma issues....why stop there? Why even step up to the table if people are playing plasma? Hey, plasma will always be a good way to deal with marines. At least a unit of DC have FnP to have a chance to survive when Dante makes his 2+ Look out Sir rolls.
The Landraider is another great way to field this unit, if that's your style, though costly, as you've already eluded to.

Super Ready wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Dante with 8 Death Company in a drop pod. Doesn't seem like much, but Dante can tank shooting for the unit and gives the Death Company a much needed Hit and Run boost.

Why have I never thought of this?! I run my DC with Jump Packs - so even more costly - but I always take the DC anyway, and pulling off Hit and Run means pretty much guaranteed Hammer of Wrath. I'll have to drop the Reclusiarch to justify the cost, though. Hmm...

Yeah, my initial thought was DC with Jump packs and Dante so they could benefit from his non-scattering Deep strike, but I felt that was far too expensive. It does allow for a bigger squad of DC, which I am a fan of (8 just feels a tad too small). If you're already fielding them, Dante (and some Sang Guard that are now troops) can be a fun addition. Seeing as how my DC are not modeled with jump packs, I'll probably stick with the drop pod method. Hit and Run itself is a 3D6 movement in any direction (even through the unit your currently in assault with) so it'll really give the otherwise slow infantry unit a much larger threat range.

Funny you should mention bubble wrapping. I've found that DC work against things that don't need to be wrapped. Charging things that are usually considered tough, but fall to weight of attacks (think Wraiths).
Things that get bubble wrapped tend to be quite gakky in combat and so don't really warrant being charged with DC in my opinion. So I don't see how that affects the decision. You can use ASM in that case or whatever you have available.

I've never really understood the whole "the IC can tank with LOS" it seems rather counter intuitive. Sure you'll avoid the weight of numbers attacks, but then you're passing off melta, plasma, whatever height strength, low ap weapon that's generally targeted at DC, and will tear through them in the downtime after drop pod.

I still think Dante is prohibitively expensive for this to be really good.

Of course his curse is also quite useful.

I know several of my usual opponents hate him for that.

I'm still really bad with my BA - played 10 games with them so far and lost all of them, if I include the 3/4 where I gave up after I realised if I kept on trying I was going to loose anyway

Just not sure where I am going wrong with them - due to play another game this week against CSM (BA ambushing a Chaos general scenario) and I think my list is going to suck big time.

List is a 2K limit and I know full well I am expecting to face some Helldrakes but not sure what I should take. Everything in have a model of so far amounts to;

2 x DV marine sets (tac, termie, bikers Captain and Libby)
AoBR marines (Tac, captain and termies) + dreadnought
Devastator squad (all weapons made up)
Tac squad leftovers (about 4-5) from making up all the Devastators
DV Chaplain
Baal Pred
Deimos Infernus (proxies as a flamer Baal)
2 Razorbacks
LRC
LR Ares
2 Vindicators

I'm allowed to proxy some things for others but I am trying very very hard to actually not die this time!

Was planning 2 assault marine squads (10 each with dual meltas), attack bike squad (all multimelta), both preds, both vindis, a biker captain and jump libby.

But really struggling to make a decent list and I think that's not going to work.

As mentioned Dante is prohibitively expensive for the hit and run shinanigans, but DC with the ability does sound awesome as not only do we have all the goodness already mentioned but you can 'hide' in assault but then jump off else where in your opponents assault phase (i.e after their shooting phase).

^ above poster. I see no priests, even though FNP isn't as good as it used to be it's still worthhaving.

D

Well this is list I have built from my force so far

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/538312.page#5820222

Martel732 wrote:
The premiums BA pay to "appear in the deployment zone' make their model count too low, imo. We don't have 5 demon princes or the Eldar tricks like the Harlequins. And he even mentions the Harlequins won't be nearly as good. I'd like to hear what he says about BA, though.

Also, his scheme means nothing to Necron infantry in nightscythes. They can't be locked down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is this guys BA advice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1T_vWHQBuU

Not impressed. He's not a BA player. He hasn't experienced the pain first hand. He's not qualified, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also a red flag that he claims to have hard games against BA. Either I play against godly players or I'm just slowed.

You may just not be as good as you think you are. Fritz has been playing since rogue trader, is a brilliant strategic mind, a veterans tournament player and someone who has been playing with and against blood angels for over a decade. You shouldn't be so quick to discount arguments that disagree with your own, especially when you lack a better answer.

Maybe. But its also possible he hasn't experienced the wrong end of Eldar and Tau with BA yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it makes me sound less harsh, I think his advice is excellent for a list like chaos demons. But if you look at what he is proposing for BA in his BA video and his assault video, I can't see how that's going to work at all.

So not quite total death company but here is my list:
Tycho (reg) 175
lib termie 170 storm shield, unleash rage
Elite
Sanguinary Priest 60 combi melta
Sanguinary Priest 50 LR
Furioso Dreadnought 125 SR magna gapple
Troops
Assault Squad 5 150
Assault Squad 5 135
Death Company (7) 230 thunder hammer / 2 power fists / hand flamer
Lemartes 150
Transports
Land raider redeemer 215
Drop pod locator 50
Drop pod
Heavy Support
Dreadnought 105 multi melta
stormraven 230 hurricane sponsons, multi melta

So DC, Lemartes and furioso in Stormraven. I started off with DC on jump packs well Tau ate DC up. Stormraven really gives a good delivery system for your DC. I might as well say it, I do like Lemartes. Tycho, SP, and assault squad in DP with locator beacon for my LR which has Libbie, SP, Assault squad (5). The last is my dread in a DP which is usually the tank killer first turn. Yes 140 points total is not a bad if I can take out a tank right away on the first turn me very happy. Also I really like the 35 point discount for my transports with the assault squad. This is a deep strike BA.

Never put anything in a stormaven. Just don't . If you try, I will punish you and a player with a good army will punish you twice as hard.

Lemartes is crap for 150 pts.

Tycho is a captain, also kind of crappy.

Deep striking BA and reserves in general stink in 6th edition. You piecemeal your army for your opponent.

 evildrcheese wrote:


^ above poster. I see no priests, even though FNP isn't as good as it used to be it's still worthhaving.

Death Company have FNP base.


I'm not really sure what planet y'all live on, but last I looked Jump Infantry can't embark on transport vehicles unless otherwise noted. How do you get Dante into a Land Raider or Drop Pod?

Just wondering - as BA don't have flak missiles yet that I am aware of, bar the Storm Raven, what do we get for anti-air duties?

I'm guessing its pretty much the rifleman dread and the ADL?

I've seen people try to do this. Rather than fighting about it, I just killed their guys because it often leads to bad lists.

The rule book states that Jump Units have the Bulky Special Rule, which means that they take up 2 slots in a transport.

Rhinos and Razorbacks explicitly forbid Terminators from embarking. Drop pods and Land Raiders don't have that restriction, so any Infantry model is eligible to embark, with Bulky ones taking up 2 slots.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
The rule book states that Jump Units have the Bulky Special Rule, which means that they take up 2 slots in a transport.

Rhinos and Razorbacks explicitly forbid Terminators from embarking. Drop pods and Land Raiders don't have that restriction, so any Infantry model is eligible to embark, with Bulky ones taking up 2 slots.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, page 88 wrote:Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.

Oops.

Indeed. Never saw a reason to try it, nor have I seen someone actually try it sine Jump Infantry pretty much suck, but it's good to know that clause is in there.

I had some guy drop a Vanguard squad in a drop pod. I didn't fight about it. I just let him charge me, I countered and then kill them all. He spent a pod and 6 vanguard to kill some tac marines. Whatever, chief, knock yourself out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'm not really sure what planet y'all live on, but last I looked Jump Infantry can't embark on transport vehicles unless otherwise noted. How do you get Dante into a Land Raider or Drop Pod?

I live on planet "Read The Rules Before Getting Lippy on Forums." The rules for Bulky (pg 35), Independent Character (pg 39) Dedicated Transports (bottom left of pg 78), and Drop Pods in the Blood Angels Codex (among other places) say that you should visit sometime.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 evildrcheese wrote:


^ above poster. I see no priests, even though FNP isn't as good as it used to be it's still worthhaving.

Death Company have FNP base.


I'm not really sure what planet y'all live on, but last I looked Jump Infantry can't embark on transport vehicles unless otherwise noted. How do you get Dante into a Land Raider or Drop Pod?

DC also don't score. Priests are needed to give our fragile troops FNP and make them more durable.
D

 Voidwraith wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'm not really sure what planet y'all live on, but last I looked Jump Infantry can't embark on transport vehicles unless otherwise noted. How do you get Dante into a Land Raider or Drop Pod?

I live on planet "Read The Rules Before Getting Lippy on Forums." The rules for Bulky (pg 35), Independent Character (pg 39) Dedicated Transports (bottom left of pg 78), and Drop Pods in the Blood Angels Codex (among other places) say that you should visit sometime.

Nice to meet you, I live in this thing called "reality":

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, page 88 wrote:Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.

Marines are not "that" fragile.

Talk to Eldar, IG, etc about "fragile"


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Though certainly SM are not as tough as they should be by the fluff, however if they were you'd only need a tactical squad to vape most armies......

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Marines are not "that" fragile.

Talk to Eldar, IG, etc about "fragile"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though certainly SM are not as tough as they should be by the fluff, however if they were you'd only need a tactical squad to vape most armies......

Fragility is relative. An 18 PPM Space Marine in this day and age where every new Codex gets oodles of ways to deal with 3+ saves is less durable than 2 9 PPM Guardians in a Ruin. It's the same problem as last edition, only magnified by the Aegis Defence Line and Area Terrain rules; paying for a 3+ armour save is rather bad when you could be (almost, depending on what MEQ we're comparing to) half the points and get an almost as good save.

I agree. 18ppm 3+ is more fragile than 7ppm 5+. Not to mention all those fancy weapons people take to deal with MEQ. Plasma guns are no more efficacious when killing guardsmen than when they're killing MEQ.

The vanilla dex should be very interesting to say the least.

MEQ also have an inherent fragility because each one relies on dice luck to survive a lot more than swarms of 4 point cultists or 5 point Guardsmen. Huge numbers of bodies tend to absorb cold dice streaks better just because the minimum number of shots required to kill them all is so much higher.

And I'm sure a lot of Blood Angel players are very eagerly awaiting the new Space Marine codex. I'm betting there will be a lot of armies built on a core of C:SM stuff with the BA specific choices added back in as allies for flavor reasons.

I'm not too sure about that. Who wants to pay the BA HQ tax? Especially since C:SM assault marines will likely be cheaper than BA assault marines. Ah, the irony.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not too sure about that. Who wants to pay the BA HQ tax? Especially since C:SM assault marines will likely be cheaper than BA assault marines. Ah, the irony.

BA Librarians have Divination access, and BA Assault Marines are scoring. We're not sure the new Vanilla Codex will have access to either Divination or scoring Assault Marines.

For 100 pts and one warp charge, they're still pretty bad, if even divination is great. The scoring ASM thing is nice, but the way things roll in 6th, it might be more valuable to lose less pts/model when the Eldar shoot the %^&^&* out of you.

I think it's very likely that BA players will field red C:SM armies. Hell my buddy is running a red raven wing list with "FNP" (PFG) bikers as troops. It's actually very flavourful, he's even put in Mephiston and a small DC squad tax to counter my new love for FMCs.

I think you're right now that I think about it, but there are many C:SM models I don't own and things like Baals will be unusable.

I play BA purely for the assault marine troops and the Baal's!

Had a massive shock a couple of nights ago when I actually managed to win a game.

Was an ambush scenario, opponent almost managed to get his general off the table then my DC jumped over and held him up just long enough for Mephiston to come in and kill the general.

First game I have actually won so bit of a shocker for me!

Much love for Mephiston and the suicide charge of the DC unit!

I've decided to go for a Drop Pod based army, how many drop pods would you recommend/suggest is a good amount for 1750?

9 seems plausible, but a little light on the troops (had to do 4x5 Assault Marines to fit it in, but then had 80/90 points spare (added heavy flamers to three dreads now though). Following Halfpast_Yellow's suggestion on P1. Planning on building this up fairly slowly anyway, certainly won't be buying another 8 Drop Pods too soon. Plan was anyway, to paint as I go along. So not having a job helps with that, as don't have the money to go and buy a whole army in one go.