I have an upcoming match this coming Friday against GTKA666's Footdar Eldar. It is a practice game for The Golden Throne 2013. For those not familiar, the Golden Throne this year is 2000-pts with double-FOC's and Forgeworld allowed. For the practice game, I've decided to bring an off-shoot of my Hive Fleet Pandora (Tyranids) - the Splinter Fleet Pandorzilla - and it is going to be a monster of a list! It is another one of my hammer lists (unlike my more balanced Hive Fleet Pandora) that will table you if you don't have the tools to deal with it or which could potentially fall flat on its face if you do.
Also, I've been on somewhat of a losing streak lately against the new space elves, having 3 losses and 1 draw against them. The new elder are really good. However, are tyranids their kryptonite? With the older eldar codex, they really screwed up tyranids by making us roll 3D6 for our psychic tests. Now, the shoe is on the other foot. Eldar is going to get a taste of their own medicine. Now they will be the ones rolling 3D6 on their psychic tests. Is that enough to beat them, or are the space elves a much more balanced (and conversely, much less reliant on psychic powers) than that? We will find out in a few days.
Here's a closer look at some of my big bugs who have been on my shelf for a while. I used them primarily at the beginning of 5th Ed. and in Apoc games, but eventually replaced them in my armies with biovores and the tyrannofex.
2000 Eldar (GTKA666)
My opponent for the game, Sean, is actually quite new to the game. He's only been playing for 3-4 months and the Golden Throne GT will be his first major tournament. So I would say that I have quite a large experience edge over my opponent. However, one of his regular playing mates does run tyranids so he does have experience playing against them. He has faced flyrants, tervigons and the Doom before so it isn't as if this is an entirely new army for him. He has not, however, played against trygons and the mawloc before.
As for his army, it isn't quite finished yet. It is a WIP and he still has a lot of work to do. My opponent is using a unit of harlequins as a proxy for one of his warp spider units, but everything else in his army is WYSIWYG.
HQ:
Autarch- Death Spinner, ChainSword, and Spider Pack
I've learned to respect the new eldar. They pack some crazy firepower, especially at mid-range, and Sean's list is no exception. Once I get in close, his list has got the potential to wipe out 2-3 normal MC's a turn. I need to tread very lightly against his army. If I am not careful, I may end up getting tabled! Of course, if my opponent is not careful as well, I can end up tabling him as well. I'm going to turn up the pressure BIG time. How he deals with the pressure will tell me what type of player he is.
In this battle, you are going to see my strategy of Positional Dominance once again. While he's got good firepower, unlike other eldar lists that I've been playing against recently, his list is a little more limited mobility-wise (at least for his scoring units). I think I can control his movement to a degree. The 2 wave serpents will help, however, he will have to sacrifice some firepower if he wants to go fast with them (as in, moving flat-out). The eldar lists that I've been playing against recently all usually involve jetbikes, and there is really no way to box them in. With his list, I think I can trap his troops as long as I can anticipate where his serpents are going to move flat-out to.
Warp spiders and war walkers will definitely be priority targets. Their firepower is insane and I've got to deal with them quickly. His wave serpents have also got some awesome firepower. However, they will be slightly harder to deal with. I'm probably going to have to ignore them until I can close onto them with assault. I'm not really too concerned about the crimson hunter and I'm just going to have to ignore Big Daddy until he gets within assault range. The Wraithknight is going to be the X-factor for eldar in this game. Trygons should be able to take care of him, assuming they survive long enough. I'll save the delicious snacks - the guardians - for last. With their limited range, they are the least threatening though if they team up against my MC's, they can easily take out a MC.
As for my army, my opponent's got to watch out for my flyrants. They are going to do the majority of the heavy lifting. They are also going to absorb a lot of firepower. If he can ground them early, then he will kill them. If not, I am going to wreak havoc on his army. Finally, the Doom can potentially play a huge role in this game. He is my X-factor that could turn the tide of the battle if he is not dealt with.
Eldar:
Well I am well versed in the fire powa of the Flyrants and know that it is his only way of shooting, but little does he know that I don't run Eldar like a normal person. Who ever is first will dramatically dictate what dies and when in this game, unless one of us whiffs. This game can't have any errors in it in order to survive (for me mainly). Now I haven't gone against any trygons at all so this will be interesting to see, but I do know that once they get close I have to chose whether the spawn brooding Tervigons die and risk assault or take care of the big nasties in my face. Either way the Flyrants are TOP priority.
My opponent thinks I need movement . Warp Spiders are all the movement I need! In objective based games these guys shine with my strategies and will split up Tyranids once they are in the back field and control the flow of the flood. I am glad that Jim realizes that the WK may not have fire power, but he will have to be wary of him in combat since I have no need to smash and he might have to and see if I fail my invuls. Although I am very tempted to see how the WK does against the Mawloc. The WK will also look for any grounded Flyrant and make it disappear into thin air.
I am not too threatened by the Doom, but I am wary of it because he will most likely be targeting my fleshies on the objectives. The Quad gun will be crucial in this and the Crimson Hunter will have to take care of it since it doubles it out or the WK will have to punt it back to the filthy land it came from.
Eldar: Deepstrike within 6" or Warlord = no scatter
Eldar deployment to the left (from my perspective)....
....and to the right. Farseer (his Warlord) is actually deployed by himself just outside of the left serpent (with his dire avengers). That is a very shrewd play by my opponent. This way, he can cast his psychic powers before getting into the wave serpent.
2 warp spiders (with Autarch) as well as the crimson hunter will come in from reserves.
Tyranid deployment. Most of my guys are over 42" from him with exception of my lead flyrant, who is also my Warlord. However, I am hoping he is obscured by terrain.
Tervigons deploy to the flanks just outside of 36" of his units.
Overview of our deployment.
We then flip over the Scouring objectives. I get the 1, 2 and 3-pt objectives....
....and Sean gets the 2, 3 and 4-pt objectives (of which the 3 and 4-pt objectives are really close to his guys)!
So I've got 6-pts worth of objectives on my side and my opponent has got 9-pts worth of objectives on his side. So much for my strategy of Positional Dominance. Now my opponent doesn't really need to move towards the objectives....he's already on them!
War walkers then scout up the hill and I decline to seize the initiative.
Farseer casts Fortune on the walkers and Guide on a unit. He then gets in the serpent with the dire avengers. Both serpents move 12" because they are fast. Walkers back-track and move down the hill after my opponent realizes they have no target due to Night-fight.
1 of the serpents and the wraithknight can see my Warlord. I am fortunate to escape with just 2 Wounds on him. The other serpent shoots down 4 gants.
Quad-guns and war walkers cannot fire because they are more than 36" away due to Night-fight.
Guardians then run for cover.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
I cast my psychic powers. Normal flyrant = Toughness 9. Hive Commander flyrant = Toughness 8 with FNP. Warlord flyrant = FNP.
Tervigon and gants move and then run.
Flyrants zoom forwards 24" each. Only my Warlord will be in range to shoot at his walkers.
I know I am putting my flyrants out at risk, especially my Warlord, but that is a risk I am willing to take in order to try to take out some of his key units.
Tervigon and gants move and then run as well.
My shooting is underwhelming to say the least.
2 flyrants focus on his Warlord's serpent only to glance it just once.
Then my Warlord fire at his walkers and I believe I get 5 pens and 1 glance!
However, my opponent makes a lot of his Fortuned saves and I only end up destroying 1 walker and shaking another.
With 36 TL-S6 shots, I was really looking to do a lot more damage.
Eldar 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Both units of warp spiders come in. His left spiders (with Autarch) uses the farseer's Warlord trait to land with dead-on precision.
Crimson hunter comes in as well.
The rest of eldar movement. Guardians disembark from the right serpent.
After his shooting.
Notice anything missing?
This reminds me of my tournament game against Eldar where my opponent incapacitated 4 of my land raiders in just 2 turns. Only here, he shoots down all 3 flyrants in just 1 turn thanks in part to horrible rolling on my behalf (couldn't pass a Grounding test nor a FNP save).
Spiders then jump away from my tervigons.
All I can say this turn is...WTF?!?
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
All is not lost yet. I still have a chance to come back. However, it's going to require some luck for me to pull it off. Here's what happens.
Again, notice anything missing?
The Doom comes in first. His spore scatters 6" away but fortunately, he can still disembark 6".
Then the trygon comes in and lands dead-on target.
Now for the coup de grace....my mawloc pops up where his Warlord's unit used to be. Since his wave serpent is surrounded and there is no where for it go, his wave serpent, dire avengers and Warlord farseer are all destroyed. 3 units gone - including his Warlord - just like that and just from the deployment of my reserves!
Tervigon spawns 8 gants and runs out. They both advance. BTW, both of my tervies cast Catalyst on themselves.
The other tervigon spawns 10 gants and is fine. They continue to advance, getting in range of an objective (BTW, that is supposed to be a 2-pt objective only).
Shooting from tervigon and gants only manage to kill 2 spiders.
Here my opponent actually gets a little lucky with his saves. First off, the Doom spirit leeches the unit, killing 2 warp spiders.
He then uses Puppet Master to control the wraith knight to fire at the Autarch's unit. The scatter laser twin-links the plasma blasts and overall, I deal 13 insta-killing wounds (of which 10 are AP2) to the unit. I suggest to my opponent to Go-to-Ground with them and he does. With a 4+ G-t-G cover, statistically, he should lose 6 guys, which would be the entire unit. However, 2 survives, including his Autarch.
Still, I'll take it. I did make somewhat of a comeback this turn. That is all I can ask for.
Eldar 3
Spoiler:
Now this turn is crucial to my chances for a tyranid victory. I think it is all going to boil down to how much firepower the Doom can absorb. There is no question he will die. However, if he can absorb enough eldar shooting so that 1 or maybe even 2 of my MC worms can survive, then I have a fighting chance. If not, then it is all but over. If in the infinitesimal chance that he survives, then you may just see one of my bigger comebacks.
Eldar movement. Everyone converges onto my alien worms. Crimson hunter goes after the Doom.
Houston....we have a problem.
Not only does the Doom NOT survive, but he gets insta-gibbed on the very first shot!
Then without cover or FNP, eldar shooting is too much for my heavies.
My heart begins to sink....
Spiders then jump away.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
I am very close to calling the game at this point, mainly because I have another army I wanted to try out and time was limited. However, I decide to play until I lose my last trygon.
My last trygon comes in. I decide to get away from the mess where all his guys are. Instead I deepstrike it on his weak flank. It is also the side with the 4-pt objective (which I want to contest).
Tervigon and gants advance. Tervigon casts FNP on the trygon.
The other tervigon and gants go after his Autarch and the lone spider. He (the warp spider) is scoring and also worth 1 VP because he is a Fast Attack in the Scouring mission.
The quad-gun intercepts the trygon and puts 1W on him.
Tervigon and gants shoot down 3 guardians by his wave serpent and 2 guardians by the quad-gun.
I then proceed to run the trygon backwards into the ruins for some cover.
Gants shoot at and finish off the lone spider as well as put 2W on the Autarch. They then proceed to assault him....
....and finish him off in combat, consolidating back behind the walls.
Eldar 4
Spoiler:
Guardians scramble towards an objective.
The rest of his elves move towards his weak flank to deal with the new threat. Warp spiders jump back and guardians go to screen them out.
Shooting by the crimson hunter and I believe the serpent puts 4W on the tervigon. He survives thanks to cover and FNP.
The rest of his shooting - the wraith knight, spiders, guardians, quad-gun and war walkers - only manage to take 2W off of my trygon as well as kill 5 gants.
He (trygon) survives!!!
Guess I'm gong to have to play a little longer.....
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Tervigon and gants move around. This turn, my tervigon fails to cast FNP. Actually, both of them fails to cast!
Gulp!
Tervigon spawns another 12 gants. I go on the offensive.
With a little bit of luck, I may actually make somewhat of a comeback this turn.
Gants scramble around the objectives.
Now the foundation of my plans - my strategy of Positional Dominance - is beginning to take shape. While my opponent has been busy killing off all of my sacrificial units, I've been slowly entrenching my troops onto the objectives. Now my plan will only work if I can kill off his scoring units....and there just happens to be 3 within reach.
My shooting - cluster spines and termagants - kill 2 guardians from each unit.
1 unit would then fail Morale and break (flee).
I then hit the jackpot and make my charges through difficult terrain for both my gants and trygon (especially with a 7" difficult terrain charge for my trygon)!
And just like that, I wipe out 2 eldar scoring units, with the 3rd one falling back.
Now he's only got 3 scoring units left - 1 unit of healthy guardians, 1 unit of guardians falling back and the crimson hunter - and just like that, I am back in the game.
Eldar 5
Spoiler:
Both the serpent and guardians go after my wounded tervigon (with just 2W remaining and no FNP!). Fortunately for me, his guardians are out of range and will need about a 5" Battle Focus run to get within shooting range.
The rest of his army prepares to deal with my trygon.
Unfortunately for my opponent, his guardians flee off the table so he is down to 2 scoring units only.
Wave serpent brings my tervigon down to only 1W remaining. Gulp!
His guardians then get a 6" run! 6 guys are in range to shoot and I have no cover or FNP for my tervigon.....
....but he survives!!! I catch a huge break as Sean fails to roll a single to wound (out of about 8 hits)!
Finally, he shoots down my trygon and reduces the unit of termagants to just 1 model remaining.
I don't care though. I'm just happy my tervigon survived. Now I have a real shot at winning.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
Tervigon and gants go after the guardians. My opponent is hoping to kill my tervigon with Overwatch. I then point out to him that gants will be charging first. BTW, this turn both tervigons cast FNP on themselves.
Other unit of gants scramble around my 3-pt objective. I make sure to keep a couple of gants out of LOS so that he can't allocate wounds to them.
On the other flank, tervigon spawns his last batch of gants before going infertile. Gants go after the wraith knight. How ironic is it that the lowly gants will be the ones to shut down the great and mighty wraith knight? Tervigon goes to claim the 4-pt objective as well as to try to stay within 6" of the gants when they charge.
Lone gant moves into base with the quad-guns.
The lowly gant then shoots down the crimson hunter, taking out another scoring unit as well as giving me another +1 VP.
Gants then charge the wraith knight. He kills 1 with Overwatch.
Gants charge and my opponent elects not to fire Overwatch (he was saving it for the tervigon). Unfortunately for him, the gants make their 7" charge. Fortunately for my opponent, the tervigon fails his 5" charge due to difficult terrain.
That would have been game had the tervigon made it.
Wraith knight kills 3 gants and then passes all his saves against the gants' poisoned attacks.
Last but not least, guardians win the battle against the gants 3-1 but the fearless gants don't care.
We then roll to see if the game continues and it does.
Eldar 6
Spoiler:
My, how the tides have changed. Now it is my opponent who is desperately fighting for the game. Although he is pummeling my army, I am pummeling him on objectives. I've got 3 objectives to his none. I've also got all 3 of his Fast Attacks. I don't think he will be able to come back unless he gets super lucky.
He is going after my wounded tervigon.
He easily kills the tervigon. The ensuing explosion takes out 2 gants only.
War walkers battle focus to see my gants. He then fires at them and kills all but 2 (because he couldn't see them and so couldn't allocate the wounds onto them). The gants then pass Morale!
Wraith knight continues to kill some gants.
Lastly, guardians finish off the lone gant but manages only to consolidate 1".
Tyranids 6
Spoiler:
My gants, being out of synapse range, fail their Instinctive Behavior test and so run away from the objective and towards area terrain.
However, the lone gant goes for my opponent's 3-pt objective and the tervigon moves into base with the quad-guns while still claiming the 4-pt objective.
He would fire at the war walkers but they would make all 3 cover/invuln saves.
Gants survive with 2 left!
My opponent then rolls to see if the game continues. It does not.
Aftermath of our battle.
Sean has a 2-pt objective.
I've got a 2-pt objective,....
....the 4-pt objective and....
....his 3-pt objective.
Sean has 1 objective, First Blood (flyrant) and my Warlord for a total of 4-pts. I've got 3 objectives, Warlord, Linebreaker (gant) and 3 Fast Attacks for a total of 14-pts.
No Contest (Draw)!!!
Now why would I declare this battle a No Contest (or Draw)? Because I made an illegal move that could have affected the outcome of the game substantially. During the game, I totally forgot that Tyranids cannot fire gun emplacements. That means I couldn't have used my opponent's quad-guns to shoot down his own flyer. Although I think I still have the better chance for a victory even with his flyer still alive, the outcome definitely could have been much different. Thus, I am declaring this game a tie.
jy2 wrote: I have an upcoming match this coming Friday against GTKA666's Footdar Eldar. It is a practice game for The Golden Throne 2013. For those not familiar, the Golden Throne this year is 2000-pts with double-FOC's and Forgeworld allowed. For the practice game, I've decided to bring an off-shoot of my Hive Fleet Pandora (Tyranids) - the Splinter Fleet Pandorzilla - and it is going to be a monster of a list! It is another one of my hammer lists (unlike my more balanced Hive Fleet Pandora) that will table you if you don't have the tools to deal with it or which could potentially fall flat on its face if you do.
Also, I've been on somewhat of a losing streak lately against the new space elves, having 3 losses and 1 draw against them. The new elder are really good. However, are tyranids their kryptonite? With the older eldar codex, they really screwed up tyranids by making us roll 3D6 for our psychic tests. Now, the shoe is on the other foot. Eldar is going to get a taste of their own medicine. Now they will be the ones rolling 3D6 on their psychic tests. Is that enough to beat them, or are the space elves a much more balanced (and conversely, much less reliant on psychic powers) than that? We will find out in a few days.
*snip*
This ought to be good! I won't predict a winner without seeing the Eldar list, but I feel we are slightly better off against Eldar than before. Also, I'm liking the lone Mawloc in there!
You going to let heavies "feed" or you going to use one of the flyrants for Backfield synapse? Keep them around the front and sides for the pew pew.. DS in from behind....sounds like a lot of fun.
Little mawloc terror from the deep, little shooty from the trygons.. then rage for all and nom nom time.
Rikoche wrote: I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!
Bladestorm could be scary to the big bugs... particularly if combined with Doom.
However, I'd be afraid of wave serpents with D-Scythe wraithguard. The 'Nid list's main method of killing vehicles is monstrous creatures (as far as I can see), and the monstrous creatures fear instant death. Even without psychic powers, those units have good odds to kill the monsters.
I will be super interested to see this one play out. I used to have a lot of trouble with Nids with my Footdar in 5th. Both armies excel at close range, but now Nids have the Pyschic advantage where previously Eldar did. Also, Footdar are less assault now (generally no Harlies or Avatar) and more shooty (count on Guide and prescience) so the dynamic has shifted quite a bit.
Rikoche wrote: I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!
Bladestorm could be scary to the big bugs... particularly if combined with Doom.
However, I'd be afraid of wave serpents with D-Scythe wraithguard. The 'Nid list's main method of killing vehicles is monstrous creatures (as far as I can see), and the monstrous creatures fear instant death. Even without psychic powers, those units have good odds to kill the monsters.
The D-Sycthe strength is only S4 so it depends on what its templating really. T5+ Nids make those wounds a lot rarer!
Roci wrote: You going to let heavies "feed" or you going to use one of the flyrants for Backfield synapse? Keep them around the front and sides for the pew pew.. DS in from behind....sounds like a lot of fun.
Little mawloc terror from the deep, little shooty from the trygons.. then rage for all and nom nom time.
I am interested to see the eldar list.
Yeah, they're better when they're feeding. Flyrants will be playing aggressively. I've got 2 tervigons for my backfield.
Rikoche wrote: I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!
Massed shuriken could hurt, but honestly, I don't mind if he is shooting at my trygons or the mawloc. Flyrants are going to do all the heavy lifting anyways. The 'gons are just to soak up some firepower.
Rikoche wrote: I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!
Bladestorm could be scary to the big bugs... particularly if combined with Doom.
However, I'd be afraid of wave serpents with D-Scythe wraithguard. The 'Nid list's main method of killing vehicles is monstrous creatures (as far as I can see), and the monstrous creatures fear instant death. Even without psychic powers, those units have good odds to kill the monsters.
Serpents will be a nuisance. However, I don't think I will see very many in a footdar list...unless, of course, he decides not to bring a foot-list. Wraithguard will get shot down. I'm not foolish enough to charge them with anything but gants.
Reecius wrote: I will be super interested to see this one play out. I used to have a lot of trouble with Nids with my Footdar in 5th. Both armies excel at close range, but now Nids have the Pyschic advantage where previously Eldar did. Also, Footdar are less assault now (generally no Harlies or Avatar) and more shooty (count on Guide and prescience) so the dynamic has shifted quite a bit.
Right now, I'd say tyranids have a slight advantage, though it really depends on the type of eldar build. Eldar's got enough firepower to shoot the bugs off the board. Whoever goes first will be crucial.
Valkyrie wrote: I choked on my tea when I saw the third Flyrant, I can see an exciting match on the way!
Good thing then I'm not bringing 4 flyrants. You'd probably drown on your tea.
Yeah, it's a rather unbalanced, pure hammer list. I'll either table you because you don't have the tools to deal with my units, or I'll probably get tabled if you do.
BTW, I'd probably never take such a list to a tournament. In a tournament, it's all about balance.
Rikoche wrote: I think it will be interesting to see if there is massed Shurieken fire and how effective it will be against monstrous Tyranids!
Bladestorm could be scary to the big bugs... particularly if combined with Doom.
However, I'd be afraid of wave serpents with D-Scythe wraithguard. The 'Nid list's main method of killing vehicles is monstrous creatures (as far as I can see), and the monstrous creatures fear instant death. Even without psychic powers, those units have good odds to kill the monsters.
The D-Sycthe strength is only S4 so it depends on what its templating really. T5+ Nids make those wounds a lot rarer!
Right, though with 5 wraiths, the chances of him insta-killing a big bug (without Iron Arm) is pretty high. It's even worse with Overwatch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Those toxin sacks are just going to make my WK wimper away in fear. Thank you Jim for creating a list that will definitely test me the way I was hoping you would! Unfortunately though in my LGS I play at, one of the better players is a Tyranid player and likes his Flyrants so i pretty much set up my list thinking if I can take out Iron Arm with these guys then I sure as heck can take out any other flyer. That is if I am not facing an entire AV13 flyer list .
May the best army and commander win and good luck to you tomorrow!
Thanks for posting your list Sean. I will update the opening post. Looking forward to beating, I mean playing your space elves tomorrow. Nom nom nom.....
Why don't your Guardians have at least some weapon platform? You can drop the Shuriken Cannon underslung and a Warp Spider and get 2 Scatter Lasers? Anyway, looking forward to the battle report., should be interesting.
mortetvie wrote: Why don't your Guardians have at least some weapon platform? You can drop the Shuriken Cannon underslung and a Warp Spider and get 2 Scatter Lasers? Anyway, looking forward to the battle report., should be interesting.
Why do you think I asked jy2 to test out my army? The trials have begun!
Indeed, I hope the testing works out for you but adding some support weapons to Guardians is like adding special weapons to IG Veterans =). Good luck in your games and you should do fine, I heard nids and Jy2 suck . J/k!
I've learned to respect the new eldar. They pack some crazy firepower, especially at mid-range, and Sean's list is no exception. Once I get in close, his list has got the potential to wipe out 2-3 normal MC's a turn. I need to tread very lightly against his army. If I am not careful, I may end up getting tabled! Of course, if my opponent is not careful as well, I can end up tabling him as well. I'm going to turn up the pressure BIG time. How he deals with the pressure will tell me what type of player he is.
In this battle, you are going to see my strategy of Positional Dominance once again. While he's got good firepower, unlike other eldar lists that I've been playing against recently, his list is a little more limited mobility-wise (at least for his scoring units). I think I can control his movement to a degree. The 2 wave serpents will help, however, he will have to sacrifice some firepower if he wants to go fast with them (as in, moving flat-out). The eldar lists that I've been playing against recently all usually involve jetbikes, and there is really no way to box them in. With his list, I think I can trap his troops as long as I can anticipate where his serpents are going to move flat-out to.
Warp spiders and war walkers will definitely be priority targets. Their firepower is insane and I've got to deal with them quickly. His wave serpents have also got some awesome firepower. However, they will be slightly harder to deal with. I'm probably going to have to ignore them until I can close onto them with assault. I'm not really too concerned about the crimson hunter and I'm just going to have to ignore Big Daddy until he gets within assault range. The Wraithknight is going to be the X-factor for eldar in this game. Trygons should be able to take care of him, assuming they survive long enough. I'll save the delicious snacks - the guardians - for last. With their limited range, they are the least threatening though if they team up against my MC's, they can easily take out a MC.
As for my army, my opponent's got to watch out for my flyrants. They are going to do the majority of the heavy lifting. They are also going to absorb a lot of firepower. If he can ground them early, then he will kill them. If not, I am going to wreak havoc on his army. Finally, the Doom can potentially play a huge role in this game. He is my X-factor that could turn the tide of the battle if he is not dealt with.
mortetvie wrote: Indeed, I hope the testing works out for you but adding some support weapons to Guardians is like adding special weapons to IG Veterans =). Good luck in your games and you should do fine, I heard nids and Jy2 suck . J/k!
No, really, I do, at least against eldar. I have a losing record against them.
Not really. It's not perfect, but it's got some scary firepower. It's good enough to give most armies a run for their money.
CKO wrote: I think the nids win this one unless a lot of 6s are rolled to deny saves with the monofilament and blade storm rule..
With Doom and Guide/Prescience, that is actually much easier to do than you think. Of course, he's going to be casting them in the presence of Shadows....
A rather uncompetitive list from the space elves. It lacks focus, and some sub-omptimal units were taken. To my eye it looks more like a try-out for all these new units, a test to see which make the cut for a more competitive list.
I think the nids will take it without too much difficulty.
Well I am well versed in the fire powa of the Flyrants and know that it is his only way of shooting, but little does he know that I don't run Eldar like a normal person. Who ever is first will dramatically dictate what dies and when in this game, unless one of us whiffs. This game can't have any errors in it in order to survive (for me mainly). Now I haven't gone against any trygons at all so this will be interesting to see, but I do know that once they get close I have to chose whether the spawn brooding Tervigons die and risk assault or take care of the big nasties in my face. Either way the Flyrants are TOP priority.
My opponent thinks I need movement . Warp Spiders are all the movement I need! In objective based games these guys shine with my strategies and will split up Tyranids once they are in the back field and control the flow of the flood. I am glad that Jim realizes that the WK may not have fire power, but he will have to be wary of him in combat since I have no need to smash and he might have to and see if I fail my invuls. Although I am very tempted to see how the WK does against the Mawloc. The WK will also look for any grounded Flyrant and make it disappear into thin air.
I am not too threatened by the Doom, but I am wary of it because he will most likely be targeting my fleshies on the objectives. The Quad gun will be crucial in this and the Crimson Hunter will have to take care of it since it doubles it out or the WK will have to punt it back to the filthy land it came from.
Who has first turn, and a couple of grounding tests might decide the game.
I'd love to be proven wrong but I think the Tyranids will take this.
GL both!
GTKA666 wrote: Eldar Pre Game Analysis: Well I am well versed in the fire powa of the Flyrants and know that it is his only way of shooting, but little does he know that I don't run Eldar like a normal person. Who ever is first will dramatically dictate what dies and when in this game, unless one of us whiffs. This game can't have any errors in it in order to survive (for me mainly). Now I haven't gone against any trygons at all so this will be interesting to see, but I do know that once they get close I have to chose whether the spawn brooding Tervigons die and risk assault or take care of the big nasties in my face. Either way the Flyrants are TOP priority.
My opponent thinks I need movement . Warp Spiders are all the movement I need! In objective based games these guys shine with my strategies and will split up Tyranids once they are in the back field and control the flow of the flood. I am glad that Jim realizes that the WK may not have fire power, but he will have to be wary of him in combat since I have no need to smash and he might have to and see if I fail my invuls. Although I am very tempted to see how the WK does against the Mawloc. The WK will also look for any grounded Flyrant and make it disappear into thin air.
I am not too threatened by the Doom, but I am wary of it because he will most likely be targeting my fleshies on the objectives. The Quad gun will be crucial in this and the Crimson Hunter will have to take care of it since it doubles it out or the WK will have to punt it back to the filthy land it came from.
I have my doubts that your scoring units will survive this game, the mawloc, gants and doom should brush them away with little difficulty. In addition, in my opinion at least, you have nowhere near enough warp spiders to be able to claim that they will in any way "control the flow" of the tyranid forces. If they are in the open, they will be run over, if they are hidden away behind BLOS terrain they will have to be ignored. The Crimson hunter will have a very short life as a flyrant can blow it out of the air in one turn.
As for the Wraithknight, well, it's toughness will be rather meaningless with the profusion of toxin sacs.
I predict that the doom will be a HUGE problem for you this game if the crimson hunter cannot deal with it. The doom has the capability to maul your scoring units or spiders.
Well, thats my opinion at least. Best of luck to you and your opponent!
Just finished our game and man, it was an unbelievable game. We both got very good psychic powers. GTKA got Fortune, Doom and Guide for his powers. I got 2 Iron Arms on my flyrants (but not on my Warlord) and Puppet Master for the Doom. My flyrant also got FNP on an objective for its Warlord trait.
And to top it off, we were playing the Scouring where I had no Fast Attacks and my opponent had 3. We checked his crimson hunter and the wings dip low enough to actually claim an objective!
Report to come out after I finish up on my 1750 RTT Tournament report.
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ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: A rather uncompetitive list from the space elves. It lacks focus, and some sub-omptimal units were taken. To my eye it looks more like a try-out for all these new units, a test to see which make the cut for a more competitive list.
I think the nids will take it without too much difficulty.
I disagree. While it isn't fully optimized, it's got focus alright and its focus is awesome mid-range shooting. Rather, it's shoot and scoot a la Tau. Just when you think you've got them, they ebb away like the sea, all the while shooting the heck out of you. From my experiences with eldar so far, they are a deceptively good army. On paper, they may not look all that great, but playing against them is a whole different experience.
Well I am well versed in the fire powa of the Flyrants and know that it is his only way of shooting, but little does he know that I don't run Eldar like a normal person. Who ever is first will dramatically dictate what dies and when in this game, unless one of us whiffs. This game can't have any errors in it in order to survive (for me mainly). Now I haven't gone against any trygons at all so this will be interesting to see, but I do know that once they get close I have to chose whether the spawn brooding Tervigons die and risk assault or take care of the big nasties in my face. Either way the Flyrants are TOP priority.
My opponent thinks I need movement . Warp Spiders are all the movement I need! In objective based games these guys shine with my strategies and will split up Tyranids once they are in the back field and control the flow of the flood. I am glad that Jim realizes that the WK may not have fire power, but he will have to be wary of him in combat since I have no need to smash and he might have to and see if I fail my invuls. Although I am very tempted to see how the WK does against the Mawloc. The WK will also look for any grounded Flyrant and make it disappear into thin air.
I am not too threatened by the Doom, but I am wary of it because he will most likely be targeting my fleshies on the objectives. The Quad gun will be crucial in this and the Crimson Hunter will have to take care of it since it doubles it out or the WK will have to punt it back to the filthy land it came from.
Thanks. I've added your pre-game to the main rep.
Nivoglibina wrote: Who has first turn, and a couple of grounding tests might decide the game.
I'd love to be proven wrong but I think the Tyranids will take this.
GL both!
Eldar will be going first. BTW, it will be Night-fight on T1.
DarthDiggler wrote: The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.
I certainly forgot. I don't know if my opponent remembered. But don't you lose the wraithcannons if you take the suncannon?
Dozer Blades wrote: All flyers that are fast attack should score for the Scouring. I doubt GW intended it otherwise.
They are scoring, yes. However, the problem is that you only count the hull and most of the hulls are a lot more than 3" off the ground where the objectives are. Only the helturkey and the crimson hunter (maybe the stormtalons as well?) are low enough to claim objectives.
Of course, you could always put the objectives on top of a hill or on the upper levels of a ruin.
yes the options for the WK load out are- 2 ID guns, sword+shield, or sun cannon and shield. Unfortuanly there is no rrom to mix and match.
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DarthDiggler wrote: The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.
Keep in mind that this is a tourney list. Both the Wraith and sun cannons have their uses, I just prefer the Suncannon for its ability to wipe out an entire terminator squad.
@ Imotek Also for this bat rep keep in mind that this is an experienced former GT player vs a player who only started playing 3-4 months ago. Regardless this battle has taught me things and I am pleased with the result and data I gleamed from this battle. Definitely worth it to see how the battle ends.
GTKA666 wrote: yes the options for the WK load out are- 2 ID guns, sword+shield, or sun cannon and shield. Unfortuanly there is no rrom to mix and match.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthDiggler wrote: The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.
Keep in mind that this is a tourney list. Both the Wraith and sun cannons have their uses, I just prefer the Suncannon for its ability to wipe out an entire terminator squad.
@ Imotek Also for this bat rep keep in mind that this is an experienced former GT player vs a player who only started playing 3-4 months ago. Regardless this battle has taught me things and I am pleased with the result and data I gleamed from this battle. Definitely worth it to see how the battle ends.
Oh, I am fully aware that Jim is a very strong player, and I wouldn't expect you to somehow outmaneuver him in one of your first games. My comment was intended more as constructive critique than anything, outlining some difficulties I presumed you would have and pointing to some flaws in your list. Anyhow, I am glad to see you enjoyed your game.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: A rather uncompetitive list from the space elves. It lacks focus, and some sub-omptimal units were taken. To my eye it looks more like a try-out for all these new units, a test to see which make the cut for a more competitive list.
I think the nids will take it without too much difficulty.
I disagree. While it isn't fully optimized, it's got focus alright and its focus is awesome mid-range shooting. Rather, it's shoot and scoot a la Tau. Just when you think you've got them, they ebb away like the sea, all the while shooting the heck out of you. From my experiences with eldar so far, they are a deceptively good army. On paper, they may not look all that great, but playing against them is a whole different experience.
I am not critiquing eldar in general, just this list. The foot guardians need Heavy Weapons extremely badly when behind an aegis line, the crimson hunter really isn't worth it's points when compared to other flyers of it's weight class and below, and, in my opinion at least, it is wise to either go all-out with serpents or not at all.
Eldar are certainly an excellent army, with the advantages you pointed out, but I don't think this list makes best use of those advantages.
IMO one of the weaknesses of Eldar have always been their ability to deal with high armor targets at range. A pair of leman Russes at the back board edge. The Wraithknight cannons offer a weapon to deal with those targets now. It is better than the Fire Prism because it can not be silenced with one shot and it can not be saved with one cover save.
In the list you brought, only the crimson hunter can realistically engage armor 13-14 targets at range. Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Hammerheads, etc... All these would be trouble for Eldar at range in the past. Not so with the Wraithcannons.
The high volume of fire from most other Eldar units should be enough to deal with terminators. The War Walkers deal so many wounds that the termie unit will roll plenty of 1's. Couple that with 15 Warp Spiders and 2 wave serpents and that's a lot of armor saves the termies will have to make.
I think you have your anti termie load out in your volume of fire and the Wraithcannons solve the high armor at range problem.
IMO one of the weaknesses of Eldar have always been their ability to deal with high armor targets at range. A pair of leman Russes at the back board edge. The Wraithknight cannons offer a weapon to deal with those targets now. It is better than the Fire Prism because it can not be silenced with one shot and it can not be saved with one cover save.
In the list you brought, only the crimson hunter can realistically engage armor 13-14 targets at range. Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Hammerheads, etc... All these would be trouble for Eldar at range in the past. Not so with the Wraithcannons.
The high volume of fire from most other Eldar units should be enough to deal with terminators. The War Walkers deal so many wounds that the termie unit will roll plenty of 1's. Couple that with 15 Warp Spiders and 2 wave serpents and that's a lot of armor saves the termies will have to make.
I think you have your anti termie load out in your volume of fire and the Wraithcannons solve the high armor at range problem.
I had someone set a squadron of Lemans up behind an ADL once. My WW's outflanked, and wiped the unit out. Another time I took them out with a Quad gun, though that was more towards the player making a bonehead move, and completely turning the tanks about to shoot at some warp spiders, presenting rear armor to a tank hunting exarch on the gun.
Eldar's speed makes up for it's slightly weaker ability to reach out and touch at 48". We can get a ton of Str 6 shooting onto the other side of the table in the blink of an eye.
jy2 wrote: Godless! Good to see you back here on the forums.
Cheers buddy, I've been around, just not posting a lot. Truth be told all I've been doing lately on the forums is reading reports from yourself, Reece, and ArbitorIan.
By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.
Red Corsair wrote: By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.
if you read the Golden Throne tournament rules (http://goldenthronegt.com/?page_id=84) and the way the rounds are set up, along with the my list, you would reconsider your statement. I am very aware of the Eldar meta which is why I am trying to abstain from it and come up with something new and fresh. With this list I have learned that I need not make mistakes or else I will have a hard time, but all I can say is don't underestimate the power of the dice rolls and the strength of the will of the Eldar Guardian! Not to mention I only have one guardian squad that is lolly gagging about since one squad is on the quad and the other will be staying at another objective or probably in reserves (which I should have tried in this test match but I digress).
Red Corsair wrote: By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.
Red Corsair wrote: By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.
if you read the Golden Throne tournament rules (http://goldenthronegt.com/?page_id=84) and the way the rounds are set up, along with the my list, you would reconsider your statement. I am very aware of the Eldar meta which is why I am trying to abstain from it and come up with something new and fresh. With this list I have learned that I need not make mistakes or else I will have a hard time, but all I can say is don't underestimate the power of the dice rolls and the strength of the will of the Eldar Guardian! Not to mention I only have one guardian squad that is lolly gagging about since one squad is on the quad and the other will be staying at another objective or probably in reserves (which I should have tried in this test match but I digress).
I read through it and I fail to see how anything in the tournament rules and the rounds would make any of my suggestions any worse. Also there is no ubiquitous meta for eldar, from what I have seen of all the west coast "top" eldar players they mainly field footdar and seer bike counsils. Claiming to be unique while fielding 15 warp spiders scatter walkers and a WK sounds fishy. Are you just opposed to GJB? You seem to be ok with wave serpents though, maybe finding a way to get a 3rd in would work better. I feel like the DA are better suited on the ground as well as they have better resiliency and longer range.
Also, I feel like you are taking advice from the dakka community the wrong way, maybe this is due to being such a fresh face, generally you are going to hear lots of opinions which is intended to help users make a better list. You can field any unit or list you want but make no mistake, if you post a sub optimal build expect it to get the acid test. This helps the community and other new players build a better understanding of competitive play. No one is telling you how to play, instead we are pointing out any weak spots we see. Again this is only because of the way the net works, we really can't give you better advice on how to play as the nature of the game is so fluid. So sadly the best tactical advice we can share is list building until we have seen a game and can point out errors.
@ Corsair- Until some one asks "Why do you run these units in your list?" instead of "Put this unit in your list and take this out because I feel that I know more than you and you know nothing." people will find me being a nice little pain because they have forgotten that we have an entire sub forum for people to ask about their lists and see how it can improve or if the person is asking in a post later on in the bat rep if they should switch anything out.
So a sample conversation would be like this:
Dakkaite: Says first question
Me: Reasons
Dakkaite: Why don't you run this instead?
Me: Reason
So on and so forth. That to me seems like a very respectful way of going about things instead of saying that the list is trash and should reconsider a new one or just changing the entire feel of the list without the man creating the list even asking for help. Don't you agree? Everyone's posts may have the intention of good, but until people ask the question of why the post will be met with hostility.
After that I can only say read the bat rep and see what I did wrong and feel free to comment about them. I know I made mistakes and if I can get another game against Jy2, you definitely won't see them again and see my list improve that much more.
Should be an interesting game. Look forward to seeing the bat rep.
@Jy2 why no 4th flyrant? Run out of flyrant models? It actually would be interesting to see what would happen with a list like that. Either way looks like an interesting army. BTW if you ran four then you could call them the barbershop quartet.
@GTKA666
Don't let it get under your skin manners and etiquette are stretched thin on a game forums. I agree it is much more productive to engage the person in dialogue than to take a lecturing posture on what should or shouldn't be done/taken. This however doesn't always happen as fast posts become abrupt or commanding posts on everyone else's screen
I have gotten the impression the game was already played, did you find anything in your list which did not synergize well? I have actually been finding eldar list building to be counter-intuitive. Counter-intuitive in that as long as you have a sprinkling from each of the necessary categories it is more important how you use it than the specific unit taken. I have not found any real duds in the dex (excluding perhaps banshees, still haven't gotten them to work). All the units people have been bagging on I have seen work really well if they are used in the correct fashion in the correct list (an example being the seer council from the dual deathstar list in an earlier Jy2 batrep, or Reec's WK). Did you find anything to be better or worse against nids than you imagined it to be?
ansacs wrote: Should be an interesting game. Look forward to seeing the bat rep.
@Jy2 why no 4th flyrant? Run out of flyrant models? It actually would be interesting to see what would happen with a list like that. Either way looks like an interesting army. BTW if you ran four then you could call them the barbershop quartet.
@GTKA666
Don't let it get under your skin manners and etiquette are stretched thin on a game forums. I agree it is much more productive to engage the person in dialogue than to take a lecturing posture on what should or shouldn't be done/taken. This however doesn't always happen as fast posts become abrupt or commanding posts on everyone else's screen
I have gotten the impression the game was already played, did you find anything in your list which did not synergize well? I have actually been finding eldar list building to be counter-intuitive. Counter-intuitive in that as long as you have a sprinkling from each of the necessary categories it is more important how you use it than the specific unit taken. I have not found any real duds in the dex (excluding perhaps banshees, still haven't gotten them to work). All the units people have been bagging on I have seen work really well if they are used in the correct fashion in the correct list (an example being the seer council from the dual deathstar list in an earlier Jy2 batrep, or Reec's WK). Did you find anything to be better or worse against nids than you imagined it to be?
lol no one is getting under my skin just saying that even though this is the internet etiquette should still be a factor. As for me commenting on the game...I can't until Jy2 posts the batrep other than the units did what I wanted them to do.
It appears to be my opponent's wish NOT to dissect his list at this time so please respect his wishes. He heard your comments and responded in kind. Please do not push it further for the time being. At the very least, wait until after the battle report where you get a chance to see them in action before commenting on his list again. If he was truly looking for help with his list, there is an appropriate section where he could ask for it. Thanks.
I will finish my other batrep today and hopefully get started on this one. It was a very exciting game and I am just as eager to tell it as I am sure you are to reading it.
ansacs wrote: Should be an interesting game. Look forward to seeing the bat rep.
@Jy2 why no 4th flyrant? Run out of flyrant models? It actually would be interesting to see what would happen with a list like that. Either way looks like an interesting army. BTW if you ran four then you could call them the barbershop quartet.
Like I said in the intro, this game will be and has been played this past Friday.
There are a number of reasons why I didn't take 4 flyrants.
1. I wanted to experiment with the trygons/mawlocs once again.
2. Trygons/mawlocs make for great cannon fodder and fits my strategy of Positional Dominance really well. They will force you to direct your resources against them. You may kill them, but what most people don't realize is that their goal to to control/limit your Movement. They keep you boxed in in your own deployment zone and by the time you kill them, hopefully you will be out of position relative to the objectives.
3. While this is a practice game for a Tournament, I really don't know what type of player is my opponent. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is truly ultra-competitive and we have never even met or played each other until this game. Until I get to know my opponent a little more, sometimes, it's better not to bring a bazooka to a knife fight. Some people won't really appreciate it. 3 flyrants is already really tough to deal with.
It appears to be my opponent's wish NOT to dissect his list at this time so please respect his wishes. He heard your comments and responded in kind. Please do not push it further for the time being. At the very least, wait until after the battle report where you get a chance to see them in action before commenting on his list again. If he was truly looking for help with his list, there is an appropriate section where he could ask for it. Thanks.
No problem, and again I want to state that on the internet even the most polite can come accross rude as there is no real gauge for tone when one is being straight forward like I usually am.
@GTKA666- I think your misunderstanding how a lot of these conversations snowball. Most comments are not directed at you directly, or at least I know mine are not. Rather I discuss things with the entire thread, so its easier just saying whats what rather then clumsily trying to hold a back and forth dialogue with everyone at once, or ignoring all others. So I apologize if my comments came across commanding and at you when rather if you look back and take it in the context that I am "thinking out loud" with the thread you will realize I am not picking on you.
That said, looking forward to the batrep, and be prepared for plenty of healthy and constructive Monday morning quarterbacking But realize that it is just that, Monday morning quarterbacking and everyone makes errors when they play the actual game.
There are a number of reasons why I didn't take 4 flyrants.
1. I wanted to experiment with the trygons/mawlocs once again.
2. Trygons/mawlocs make for great cannon fodder and fits my strategy of Positional Dominance really well. They will force you to direct your resources against them. You may kill them, but what most people don't realize is that their goal to to control/limit your Movement. They keep you boxed in in your own deployment zone and by the time you kill them, hopefully you will be out of position relative to the objectives.
3. While this is a practice game for a Tournament, I really don't know what type of player is my opponent. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is truly ultra-competitive and we have never even met or played each other until this game. Until I get to know my opponent a little more, sometimes, it's better not to bring a bazooka to a knife fight. Some people won't really appreciate it. 3 flyrants is already really tough to deal with.
All good reasons and I agree though you must admit a flyrant barber shop quartet does sound hilarious . Super pumped that you are giving the mawloc another go, I really think he gets over looked too often. Lets see how he does tough ha ha.
It is easy to overlook something when its usefulness can be decided by bad dice rolling. In our gaming group an Eldar player stopped using wraithguard after just two games, this under 5th edition rules. He played them correctly, but did not have luck.
I keep refreshing these two threads by jy2, but still no batreps.
Naw wrote: It is easy to overlook something when its usefulness can be decided by bad dice rolling. In our gaming group an Eldar player stopped using wraithguard after just two games, this under 5th edition rules. He played them correctly, but did not have luck.
I keep refreshing these two threads by jy2, but still no batreps.
That's because he is currently working on his 1750 RTT batrep thread.
Thanks Jim. Though I should have asked you to bring a bazooka to the knife fight because that is what I was looking for! You still brought a RPG launcher though and can't wait to go up against your ATC tourney list sometime soon.
GTKA666 wrote: Thanks Jim. Though I should have asked you to bring a bazooka to the knife fight because that is what I was looking for! You still brought a RPG launcher though and can't wait to go up against your ATC tourney list sometime soon.
All good reasons and I agree though you must admit a flyrant barber shop quartet does sound hilarious . Super pumped that you are giving the mawloc another go, I really think he gets over looked too often. Lets see how he does tough ha ha.
I decided to give the Mawloc another try thanks to this thread by Jifel:
Naw wrote: It is easy to overlook something when its usefulness can be decided by bad dice rolling. In our gaming group an Eldar player stopped using wraithguard after just two games, this under 5th edition rules. He played them correctly, but did not have luck.
I keep refreshing these two threads by jy2, but still no batreps.
Yeah, bud luck/experience with a unit is the quickest way to shelve it. That's what I did with Fateweaver early on with 6th Ed. Daemons. However, recently I started using him again and now I don't think my balanced, competitive daemons will be without him any more.
The report is coming soon. I already started on it.
GTKA666 wrote: Thanks Jim. Though I should have asked you to bring a bazooka to the knife fight because that is what I was looking for! You still brought a RPG launcher though and can't wait to go up against your ATC tourney list sometime soon.
Still wouldn't have brought 4 flyrants mainly because I wanted my 3 alien worms. But next time, it may be a whole different ballgame.
As of now, I really don't know how my ATC list will do. I've only played 1 game with it so far. I need a lot more practice with it.
toocool61 wrote: I'd love to play to! I am also going to the Golden Throne and would love to test my list against your Eldar.
Aren't you currently in SoCal? Well, if you ever do come up to NorCal, just give me or GTKA a PM and maybe we can get a game on.
Eldar are more broken than coffee mugs at a preschool.
That's too bad....because you need lots of coffee to stay awake in preschool.
GTKA666 wrote: lol this battle will surprise most people and will put Eldar in a different light.
BTW, one of reasons why I think 10 naked guardians without any heavy weapon platforms is ok is this.
With a heavy weapon, you are encouraged to stay away to just fire it. That means may just 1 bright lance shot or up to 4 S6 shots.
Guardians are much more deadly when they're close up firing 20 rending shots while supported by Guide/Prescience and Doom.
Stay back and your chances of grounding MC's is much, much lower as you are less likely to hit. Up close, you have a much better chance to ground them because there are more units to shoot with higher chances to hit.
BTW, you played T2 brilliantly with all your units working together in unison in order to take out my flyrants.
Ouch! I really wasn't expecting that... Bad dice happen sadly, but that still puts some proper fear of the Eldar into my heart... I'll consider this a warning! I'm doubting that the Trygons will be able to make enough of a difference now.
GTKA666 wrote: lol this battle will surprise most people and will put Eldar in a different light.
Nope. Games over. I mean dice are dice and the Doom can come down and wreck your whole Army, but that doesn't mean much. At this point the Eldar win 4/5 games and that's pretty good for a dice game. You can roll some dice, shoot a Trygon with 80 rending shots and miss with everything to lose the game. Still doesn't mean Eldar don't win this matchup 4/5 times from this point forward.
GTKA666 wrote: lol this battle will surprise most people and will put Eldar in a different light.
BTW, one of reasons why I think 10 naked guardians without any heavy weapon platforms is ok is this.
With a heavy weapon, you are encouraged to stay away to just fire it. That means may just 1 bright lance shot or up to 4 S6 shots.
Guardians are much more deadly when they're close up firing 20 rending shots while supported by Guide/Prescience and Doom.
Stay back and your chances of grounding MC's is much, much lower as you are less likely to hit. Up close, you have a much better chance to ground them because there are more units to shoot with higher chances to hit.
BTW, you played T2 brilliantly with all your units working together in unison in order to take out my flyrants.
if its one thing I know how to do it is to bring down a flyer, no matter if it has toughness or AV. I was planning on sending the Spiders towards the bottom gaunts to harass the tervigon down south, but something in me said "don't be an idiont and focus those flyrants! Ty for the compliment as well!
BTW, one of reasons why I think 10 naked guardians without any heavy weapon platforms is ok is this.
With a heavy weapon, you are encouraged to stay away to just fire it. That means may just 1 bright lance shot or up to 4 S6 shots.
Guardians are much more deadly when they're close up firing 20 rending shots while supported by Guide/Prescience and Doom.
Stay back and your chances of grounding MC's is much, much lower as you are less likely to hit. Up close, you have a much better chance to ground them because there are more units to shoot with higher chances to hit.
Aren't Grav Platforms relentless? Unless the issue is being afraid to commit a more expensive unit (I don't know what the platforms cost) it seems like adding at least a Shuriken Cannon would a be a no-brainer. Play just as aggressively with your Guardians, but now if you put them up against a high-toughness target you've got more than just the hope for a few 6s in your arsenal.
BTW, one of reasons why I think 10 naked guardians without any heavy weapon platforms is ok is this.
With a heavy weapon, you are encouraged to stay away to just fire it. That means may just 1 bright lance shot or up to 4 S6 shots.
Guardians are much more deadly when they're close up firing 20 rending shots while supported by Guide/Prescience and Doom.
Stay back and your chances of grounding MC's is much, much lower as you are less likely to hit. Up close, you have a much better chance to ground them because there are more units to shoot with higher chances to hit.
Aren't Grav Platforms relentless? Unless the issue is being afraid to commit a more expensive unit (I don't know what the platforms cost) it seems like adding at least a Shuriken Cannon would a be a no-brainer. Play just as aggressively with your Guardians, but now if you put them up against a high-toughness target you've got more than just the hope for a few 6s in your arsenal.
All I am saying is that not having a weapons platform in a unit of guardians is ok. But that doesn't mean it is better than a unit with a gun platform. Now it is ok if you play your guardian squad up close with the rest of the army but the problem I am seeing is that many players who run the gun platforms tend to deploy them slightly further away from the rest of the more mobile army and just sit there and shoot. Honestly, that is a waste of all the bladestorming shots there as the unit can easily be avoided should the opponent choose to. So basically, each turn you are just firing 1 brightlance shot (or whatever). But deploy them with the rest of the force and now you can fire both your weapons platform as well as shurikens when the enemy gets close.
Naked guardians tend to be be 1) in wave serpents or 2) close to the main army to help support it. That is just how a lot of players play. You can also reserve them, but guardian jetbikes would do that better.
Ouch, game over then by turn 2? It'll be interesting to see if you can salvage anything from this, jy2.
The flyrants were exposed to a hell of a lot of firepower including the flyer and quad which are pretty much guaranteed to ground two tyrants. However with those iron arms rolls plus FNP I wouldn't have thought on average he had enough shots to take that 12 wounds off.
I notice there doesn't seem to be any Los blocking for the flyrants, I'd have preferred waiting till turn 2 reserves were in the Eldar deployment zone before exposing the flyrants but I guess that wasn't possible. All with the benefit of hindsight and armchair generalship of course.
GTKA666 wrote: lol this battle will surprise most people and will put Eldar in a different light.
Nope. Games over. I mean dice are dice and the Doom can come down and wreck your whole Army, but that doesn't mean much. At this point the Eldar win 4/5 games and that's pretty good for a dice game. You can roll some dice, shoot a Trygon with 80 rending shots and miss with everything to lose the game. Still doesn't mean Eldar don't win this matchup 4/5 times from this point forward.
I think you are being kind. Losing 800-pts of your best units who also happen to be your best shooters, only means of anti-flyer and most mobile units while only being able to take out 70-pts of the opponent's offense....in most cases, your chances of a victory is 1 in 10.
djn wrote: Ouch, game over then by turn 2? It'll be interesting to see if you can salvage anything from this, jy2.
The flyrants were exposed to a hell of a lot of firepower including the flyer and quad which are pretty much guaranteed to ground two tyrants. However with those iron arms rolls plus FNP I wouldn't have thought on average he had enough shots to take that 12 wounds off.
I notice there doesn't seem to be any Los blocking for the flyrants, I'd have preferred waiting till turn 2 reserves were in the Eldar deployment zone before exposing the flyrants but I guess that wasn't possible. All with the benefit of hindsight and armchair generalship of course.
It's not over yet. Like I said, this was a very good game.
My rolling was pretty bad on Turn 2. I would fail all my Grounding tests (where is Fateweaver when you need him!?!) and I don't think I passed a single FNP save. Moreover, I had no cover against the majority of his rending shooting as well as the Wraithknights and crimson hunter's AP2 shots. His list actually has quite a lot of short-to-mid-range firepower and T8/9 means nothing to rending shuriken weaponry.
There was a LOS-blocking terrain. I just chose not to use it, opting for an aggressive alpha-strike instead and thinking that I should be able to survive his shooting with maybe just 1 or at most 2 dead flyrants. If I had made even 1 grounding test, I probably would have had at least 1 flyrant survive.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Wow. Poor ol' Flyrants, thats almost half the points of this army out the window. It will be interesting to see the recovery.
As long as the Doom is able to draw a lot of firepower from his army, thus giving my Heavies some breathing room, I think I still have a slim chance.
Final prediction is a narrow Eldar victory. Mawloc, Tyrgons and DOOM all do enough damage to hold back Eldar, but Tervigons and other elements can't make it far up enough to contest/claim the Eldars superior objectives.
The Eldar list ends up being more formidable than it looked, in line with most of the lists used by Reecius. Eldar is a very tricky, synergistic army to be sure! There still isn't an emerging single "meta build" better than any other.
jifel wrote: Final prediction is a narrow Eldar victory. Mawloc, Tyrgons and DOOM all do enough damage to hold back Eldar, but Tervigons and other elements can't make it far up enough to contest/claim the Eldars superior objectives.
The Eldar list ends up being more formidable than it looked, in line with most of the lists used by Reecius. Eldar is a very tricky, synergistic army to be sure! There still isn't an emerging single "meta build" better than any other.
Wait til Wave Serpent-spam comes out. I guarantee you that is a top-tier tournament-winning eldar army build.
The question is, how will it look like? I don't believe it is a 9-AV12 build like pure CronAir. Rather, think of it more like my wraithwing crons - a hybrid build with 4-5 wave serpents and some other good units.
I will probably test such a build with SabrX's mechdar when he returns to gaming.
Serpent spam is the obvious choice, for good reason, but I've seen some mean lists with only one or two. Then again, those were technically DEldar, so less Eldar involved.
Both of these lists look great on the battlefield, the Eldar list is diverse and really fills the board with units/threats. Great game so far! 40k at 2K+ is really a different game and loads of fun.
BladeWalker wrote: Both of these lists look great on the battlefield, the Eldar list is diverse and really fills the board with units/threats. Great game so far! 40k at 2K+ is really a different game and loads of fun.
Thanks. Yeah, there definitely is a lot more toys you can play around with at 2K. Personally, 2K is my favorite points level to play at, though it does take around 3+ hours of casual play.
And the Mawloc proves it worth. I'm happy someone has shown this to the Internet as it is a unit I have always stood by. But I tend to run my list as triple maw locks, 2 x 7 ymgarls, doom in a pod. Then 2 x tervis, with the needed gants. And a flyrant.
Excellent showing by the Mawloc! I'm currently bouncing back between him + gants and a third Flyrant for 2250... its very tricky! I'm very glad that I opened up that thread on the Mawloc, I'm seeing real utility in this guy!
Quick question, did you DS that Trygon there to block his Serpents "path of escape" before the Mawloc came in? If so, that is just pure evil!
Eldercaveman wrote: And the Mawloc proves it worth. I'm happy someone has shown this to the Internet as it is a unit I have always stood by. But I tend to run my list as triple maw locks, 2 x 7 ymgarls, doom in a pod. Then 2 x tervis, with the needed gants. And a flyrant.
I think when playing againt "maw-gins" (i.e. mawloc virgins - people who have never gone up againt a mawloc before), you can pull off such shenanigans. But rarely will you be able to pull off the same maneuver against the same opponent again. They'll usually learn the 2nd time, especially after losing a 400-pt unit just like that.
jifel wrote: Excellent showing by the Mawloc! I'm currently bouncing back between him + gants and a third Flyrant for 2250... its very tricky! I'm very glad that I opened up that thread on the Mawloc, I'm seeing real utility in this guy!
Quick question, did you DS that Trygon there to block his Serpents "path of escape" before the Mawloc came in? If so, that is just pure evil!
Yes, I did. In order for the mawloc "trick" to work, you need to block off all exits. That was exactly what I tried to do. Almost gave him an "out" with the spore pod scattering. Fortunately, I was able to disembark the Doom and still be able to block an "exit".
In addition, the trygon was in range to shoot at the war walkers. He just made his cover saves/invulns.
I've seen the same mawloc trick done in 5th but using lictors or Ygnarls to pin gun line units in their corner before popping up. Also glad to see you burrowed turn 1 like any smart player though you may want to add that to your turn one so others know the same trick. Never reserve the mawloc. If he lives the mawloc will be crucial by the end of this game due to burrowing and hit and run, he is a great end game contester.
Don't sell that trick short btw, with three flying MC's, a spod/doom and two trygons you have great odds at trapping even hardened players. As I've said I've seen it done even to suspecting players using lictors though I'll agree it is hit or miss but when it goes off, like in this game, it is awesome.
Looking at the eldar list again I think he would benefit more with a Bastion. It's cheaper, gives his quad gun better visibility, protects a unit inside while adding heavy bolter support and on top of all that allows his WW to battle focus behind it each turn so he can use his seers powers elsewhere.
Funny game so far, a lot of unlikely things have happened which I find make the most fun game.
BTW, one of reasons why I think 10 naked guardians without any heavy weapon platforms is ok is this.
With a heavy weapon, you are encouraged to stay away to just fire it. That means may just 1 bright lance shot or up to 4 S6 shots.
Guardians are much more deadly when they're close up firing 20 rending shots while supported by Guide/Prescience and Doom.
Stay back and your chances of grounding MC's is much, much lower as you are less likely to hit. Up close, you have a much better chance to ground them because there are more units to shoot with higher chances to hit.
Aren't Grav Platforms relentless? Unless the issue is being afraid to commit a more expensive unit (I don't know what the platforms cost) it seems like adding at least a Shuriken Cannon would a be a no-brainer. Play just as aggressively with your Guardians, but now if you put them up against a high-toughness target you've got more than just the hope for a few 6s in your arsenal.
The problem I am seeing is that many players who run the gun platforms tend to deploy them slightly further away from the rest of the more mobile army and just sit there and shoot. Honestly, that is a waste of all the bladestorming shots there as the unit can easily be avoided should the opponent choose to. So basically, each turn you are just firing 1 brightlance shot (or whatever). But deploy them with the rest of the force and now you can fire both your weapons platform as well as shurikens when the enemy gets close.
I agree, but I see this as less of an argument for naked guardians and more a call for people to wake up and stop letting the grav platform tail wag the dog.
Well when the mawlock came in (for some reason it didn't occur to me that I had trapped my WS. Thats what I get for saying "ah that will never happen.") and he put the pie plate down he had this grin on his face and when he said "I put it here. Now your Serpent is destroyed." I literally tried to find every nook and cranny to try and save the damn thing....whats worse is that I was thinking of disembarking the unit out of the WS in case the flyrants had lived though the onslaught...O' how deep that wound cut. Mark my words though....this will not happen to me again!
I think T2 is the turn of proving a units' worth. Not to mention the turn that I am still kicking myself for XD.
As for the Bastion....I don't own one . I also use the Quad for the scare factor and less for actual fire power, well with the crack shot gone and whatnot. This game of course would have been perfect for it though.
GTKA666 wrote: Well when the mawlock came in and he put the pie plate down he had this grin on his face and when he said "I put it here. Now your Serpent is destroyed." I literally tried to find every nook and cranny to try and save the damn thing....whats worse is that I was thinking of disembarking the unit out of the WS in case the flyrants had lived though the onslaught...O' how deep that wound cut. Mark my words though....this will not happen to me again!
I think T2 is the turn of proving a units' worth. Not to mention the turn that I am still kicking myself for XD.
And so the Mawloc has done its job. The thing I have found with Nids, is more than any other army half the battle is won off the table. You need to be able to control the psychological warfare going on. And now any time you come up against a Mawloc, you will have this in your mind, and your opponent will already be controlling what you do, just by showing you a list.
Lol now when I see a Mawlock I won't have my guardians push up so far and have the DA's jump out instead! SImple fix to this "psychological warfare". If anything my guardians will be playing the trick of "O' they won't do anything" and how wrong my opponent will be
ouch, that was a scary turn of shooting for the Eldar, it just proves how deceptively competitive that codex is... and i am sure that list can be optimized a lot.
On the other hand really curious how the Eldar will take out the superheroes team ... (trygon, mawloc, doom) they have the power to cripple the backfield, which they already did half by killing a waveserpent and molesting a unit of warspiders.
However i predict the power of shuriken catapults will be seen now... (one of the reasons my nids will change owner...)
Ouch, painful to see all 3 flyrants go down in a single turn. The Mawloc trick looks like fun, but seems very situational to me with so many things that could go wrong, the most probably one being either the Mawloc scattering off target, or one of the other models that are required to box in does so. Or am I missing something.
Interested in seeing the rest of the fight.
Bronzino88 wrote: Why did the doom get to disembark 6"? the rule for spore pods is only a 2" disembark, unless I missed it in a FAQ?
Without that 6" disembark looks like the WS would have had plenty of room to move out of the mawlocs way.
Bronzino88 wrote: Why did the doom get to disembark 6"? the rule for spore pods is only a 2" disembark, unless I missed it in a FAQ?
Without that 6" disembark looks like the WS would have had plenty of room to move out of the mawlocs way.
Tyranid FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Redemption:
The Mawloc is still a 6 Wound Toughness 6 MC that hits whatever he pops up under like this with a S6 AP2 hit and he can hold his own in CC. Not quite like a Trygon, but still.
I don't think when you use the Mawloc you count on boxing in and destroying something, that is just a bonus..
Oh I know, I play 'Nids myself, it is my first army.
But for me they usually don't do much unless I get lucky. The 2-3 S6 AP2 Large Blasts he can do over the length of a game are usually mitigated or negated by cover saves, scatters or just placing any juicy targets inside a transport or in the upper levels of a ruin. They're a fun concept though, so I sometimes run 'em in friendly games for gaks and giggles.
Note to self: Monstrous creatures, Deep Struck next to Eldar, will die horrible and painful deaths. Statistically, a Shurikan catapult within 12" will do the same number of wounds as a DE Splinter Rifle... Ouch o.O
I think one of your "standard" Nid lists would have fared much better here. This game is just screaming for Biovores! But this has also almost completely shaken me off Trygons. I never really liked them, but in todays Meta Nid reserves need to all arrive at once, and they need to do things THAT TURN. The threat of "I'm big and scary!" just gets you killed without doing enough damage.
That Nid list was designed as an "MC overload" but I think it played right into the hands of the Eldar list. Ymgarls, Biovores, the Doom in a Pod, Zoeys in a Pod, all of these could do a lot of damage if together. Of course, losing those Flyrants in one turn is horrendously bad luck and pretty much triggered your doom, but I think you (and I admit I did too) underestimated the Eldar v. Nids matchup. It looks like we may want to stay in that ~24" gap with our monstrous creatures until we've killed enough infantry to matter.
While the eldar have some good tricks in their codex, from what i've seen in the batrep Jy2's biggest enemy in this battle is his own dice. Yes, shuriken weapons ignore armor saves on a 6, D-weapons cause instant death on a 6, mono-filament weapons are ap1 on a 6, etc etc, but it looks to me like between failing so many normal dice rolls like armor saves and grounding checks, Jy2 would be in dire straits with any army.
Interested to see how it plays out, but man those first 3 turns were absolutely brutal.
Baktru wrote: Three Flyrants gone in a single turn. I didn't expect to see that happening. As jy2 said, 1 or at worst 2 of them. But the whole bunch...
I'm afraid to say this doesn't surprise me one bit. At our local shop my brother's Eldar have absolutely annihilated all flying tyrants they have come across in one round (generally their first turn of shooting - as happened here), to the point that killing them is more of a sport than an actual tactical priority to him...
Still nice to see the Mawloc getting that one-in-a-million hit with Terror From the Deep!
jy2 wrote: Wait til Wave Serpent-spam comes out. I guarantee you that is a top-tier tournament-winning eldar army build.
The question is, how will it look like? I don't believe it is a 9-AV12 build like pure CronAir. Rather, think of it more like my wraithwing crons - a hybrid build with 4-5 wave serpents and some other good units.
I fully agree. My brother's serpent spam army so far is undefeated at our shop (6 out of 6) and has yet to really suffer significant unit casualties (worst he has suffered so far I think was two tanks from Hive Guard and a handful of dire avengers).
His list currently looks something like this from memory:
Spoiler:
HQ: Farseer or Spirit Seer - stock (depending on what disciplines he wants or if he wants a unit of D-scythe wraithguard, generally brings a Farseer in the second slot points permitting)
ELITES
(generally neglected, occasionally brings Fire Dragons + Serpent in place of a DAVU serpent)
HEAVY: Fire Prism - stock, maybe holofields if points allow
HEAVY: Fire Prism - same as above
HEAVY: Wraithknight - stock
The firepower output is quite alarming to put it mildly. The last game he had was called turn 3 as the enemy didn't have anything really left to fight back with.
Wake up jy2, sleep when your dead. Looking forward to seeing how this one ends. I find your battle reports by far the easiest to follow of all the ones I read online, so thanks and keep it up!
Quick question; Where in the rules does it state that FMCs cant start the game flying? There was some debate over this in my group and we couldnt find a definate answer.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Wake up jy2, sleep when your dead. Looking forward to seeing how this one ends. I find your battle reports by far the easiest to follow of all the ones I read online, so thanks and keep it up!
Quick question; Where in the rules does it state that FMCs cant start the game flying? There was some debate over this in my group and we couldnt find a definate answer.
they have to move and state whether they are flying in the air or about to charge some one. Not to mention it would have been more painful for him if his warlord was flying. He didn't make one grounding test.
See, that's one thing as a nidzilla player myself that scares me. Distort weaponry has a 16% chance with each shot to instantly kill all of my multi-wound MC's (barring iron arm on a flyrant). It has a 100% chance to instant death all my T4/T5 models. Without some form of eternal warrior, eldar may prove to be a struggle for nidzilla players to face against (much like dark eldar always have been since their 5th edition update).
Not to mention it would have been more painful for him if his warlord was flying. He didn't make one grounding test.
And that ^^ is a big factor in Jim's trouble with the game (as i can tell from the report). It seems like his dice just completely left him in the cold for many key rolls. Failing a couple grounding tests here and there is not unheard of...failing EVERY grounded test on the first go is just crippling for the Hive Tyrants.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Wake up jy2, sleep when your dead. Looking forward to seeing how this one ends. I find your battle reports by far the easiest to follow of all the ones I read online, so thanks and keep it up!
Quick question; Where in the rules does it state that FMCs cant start the game flying? There was some debate over this in my group and we couldnt find a definate answer.
LOL.
Wished I could play more games as well when I'm dead.
Don't have my book with me, but flying for MC's is done on their Movement phase. If you aren't going first, then you haven't had the chance to fly yet as you have not had your Movement phase yet.
Page 49, "Deployment:" A FMC that is deployed starts in in Glide mode.
And, I'm very happy to see the turnaround! I'm still thinking adraw, although I'd have to go back and check how many points each objective was worth. I hold to my prediction though, Eldar can't muster the forces to kick Nids off the objective.
jifel wrote: Page 49, "Deployment:" A FMC that is deployed starts in in Glide mode.
And, I'm very happy to see the turnaround! I'm still thinking adraw, although I'd have to go back and check how many points each objective was worth. I hold to my prediction though, Eldar can't muster the forces to kick Nids off the objective.
Currently, my opponent only has the 1-pt objective.
I've got (or will get when I move) a 4-pt, 3-pt and 2-pt objective. I've also killed 2 scoring FA units. If the game ends on 5, it will be a crushing victory for my bugs. That's quite a turnaround.
However, I need for the game to end before he shoots down my tervigons and I need to start testing for Instinctive Behaviour!
My first 3 turn= outstanding. The following turns= my inability to play an objective game due to inexperience, at least against Tyranids. Mainly because I have only played Purge against nids and did not know how impossible it was to get nids off a bloody objective. My dice also cooled down by now and my rending didn't want to rend anymore :(. So many mistakes following turn 3 that I ended up giving the game to Jy2 on a platter. At least he worked for it though .
Redemption wrote: Oh I know, I play 'Nids myself, it is my first army.
But for me they usually don't do much unless I get lucky. The 2-3 S6 AP2 Large Blasts he can do over the length of a game are usually mitigated or negated by cover saves, scatters or just placing any juicy targets inside a transport or in the upper levels of a ruin. They're a fun concept though, so I sometimes run 'em in friendly games for gaks and giggles.
Well I can't comment how the thing works out as I don't have one anyway so I've never used one. But if I did, my logic would be that the Getting a WS blocked from moving away thing would just be a bonus. But for now I'm still building Trygons first.
jifel wrote: Page 49, "Deployment:" A FMC that is deployed starts in in Glide mode.
And, I'm very happy to see the turnaround! I'm still thinking adraw, although I'd have to go back and check how many points each objective was worth. I hold to my prediction though, Eldar can't muster the forces to kick Nids off the objective.
How did I miss that!? Its right there in the FMC rules.
Thanks for all the responses.
I am no longer surprised by jy2's amazing come backs. I am begining to think he throws the early turns for dramatic effect.
Great turn around jy2. That's what I love about nids, shove a load of hard hitting scary stuff in people's faces to deal with and all the while the tervigons are spawning gants and taking the midfield. Well done GTKA666 for bringing the hive fleet to the brink! Looking forward to the last instalment. Nid victory against the odds?
I do think that this game highlights the usefulness of the skyshield for nids. Placed dead centre when the flyrants come out to play the 4++ can be an absolute life saver from the inevitable return fire. However I think the torrent of S6+ from eldar and tau really has limited their effectiveness. 116 point skyray = dead 260 point flyrant.
Well just by looking at the board you can tell what is about to and will happen. I really should have left the right flank alone and came down heavy on the left after turn 3. Learning has been made from the battle!
ummmmm...I still consider it a loss lol, regardless of using the quad...though I might have just shot down the tervigon instead, but I definitely made mistakes that will be fixed. Our next game though....that quad might be better protected and no mawlocks in sight!
Red Corsair wrote: I've seen the same mawloc trick done in 5th but using lictors or Ygnarls to pin gun line units in their corner before popping up. Also glad to see you burrowed turn 1 like any smart player though you may want to add that to your turn one so others know the same trick. Never reserve the mawloc. If he lives the mawloc will be crucial by the end of this game due to burrowing and hit and run, he is a great end game contester.
Don't sell that trick short btw, with three flying MC's, a spod/doom and two trygons you have great odds at trapping even hardened players. As I've said I've seen it done even to suspecting players using lictors though I'll agree it is hit or miss but when it goes off, like in this game, it is awesome.
Looking at the eldar list again I think he would benefit more with a Bastion. It's cheaper, gives his quad gun better visibility, protects a unit inside while adding heavy bolter support and on top of all that allows his WW to battle focus behind it each turn so he can use his seers powers elsewhere.
Funny game so far, a lot of unlikely things have happened which I find make the most fun game.
That is true. Sometimes, you can make it happen even when your opponent knows about it. You just need the reserves to come in almost all at the same time. A note about ymgarls though. That would only work if the enemy unit is in or near area terrain where the ymgarls come out from because if the ymgarl has to move to block off the enemy unit, then that is already pass the beginning of the movement phase.
Also, people still run lictors? Lol. Must be a really casual game.
Yeah, I like the Bastion for eldar. Gives those walkers and others a hiding place.
This game was nerve-wracking....to be down so much for me initially and then to find yourself with not enough scoring units or offense to get rid of tyranid scoring units for my opponent. It was a very back-and-forth game, which made it very exciting.
Amerikon wrote: I agree, but I see this as less of an argument for naked guardians and more a call for people to wake up and stop letting the grav platform tail wag the dog.
That's right. Personally, I would give them a gun platform as well, but it isn't the end of the world if you don't. They can still function well if you use the unit properly.
GTKA666 wrote: Well when the mawlock came in (for some reason it didn't occur to me that I had trapped my WS. Thats what I get for saying "ah that will never happen.") and he put the pie plate down he had this grin on his face and when he said "I put it here. Now your Serpent is destroyed." I literally tried to find every nook and cranny to try and save the damn thing....whats worse is that I was thinking of disembarking the unit out of the WS in case the flyrants had lived though the onslaught...O' how deep that wound cut. Mark my words though....this will not happen to me again!
I think T2 is the turn of proving a units' worth. Not to mention the turn that I am still kicking myself for XD.
As for the Bastion....I don't own one . I also use the Quad for the scare factor and less for actual fire power, well with the crack shot gone and whatnot. This game of course would have been perfect for it though.
You actually still had 2 openings, which I then plugged up with my reserves. It's really hard to foresee that without first-hand experience playing against a mawloc. And I rolled really well for my reserves despite losing Hive Commander. If even 1 less unit came in from reserves, I wouldh't have been able to pull it off.
GTKA666 wrote: Well when the mawlock came in and he put the pie plate down he had this grin on his face and when he said "I put it here. Now your Serpent is destroyed." I literally tried to find every nook and cranny to try and save the damn thing....whats worse is that I was thinking of disembarking the unit out of the WS in case the flyrants had lived though the onslaught...O' how deep that wound cut. Mark my words though....this will not happen to me again!
I think T2 is the turn of proving a units' worth. Not to mention the turn that I am still kicking myself for XD.
And so the Mawloc has done its job. The thing I have found with Nids, is more than any other army half the battle is won off the table. You need to be able to control the psychological warfare going on. And now any time you come up against a Mawloc, you will have this in your mind, and your opponent will already be controlling what you do, just by showing you a list.
The hive mind is watching.....
Yeah, nids are masters of psychological warfare. They've got so many disruption units that most people don't realize how much they make you think until they play against you, and then they are sweating. I believe this psychological factor is the true X-factor for the bugs. Sometimes, it is enough of an edge to give me the victory in many of my games as my opponents under-estimate my army and makes mistakes, especially when it comes to target prioritization.
Three Flyrants gone in a single turn. I didn't expect to see that happening. As jy2 said, 1 or at worst 2 of them. But the whole bunch...
Good showing by the Mawloc though! Maybe I should add one of those to my to-build list.
I guess the next round of Eldar shooting will be crucial in how many more Tyranids are blasted off the table..
The mawloc is a support unit. Go with the core units first, which are the flyrants and tervigons. The mawlocs/trygons are situational units and can be good in some games against certain opponents, but the flyrant/tervigons are good against all the opponents almost all of the time. They are the foundation for a balanced, TAC (Take-All-Comer's) tyranids list.
Valek wrote: ouch, that was a scary turn of shooting for the Eldar, it just proves how deceptively competitive that codex is... and i am sure that list can be optimized a lot.
On the other hand really curious how the Eldar will take out the superheroes team ... (trygon, mawloc, doom) they have the power to cripple the backfield, which they already did half by killing a waveserpent and molesting a unit of warspiders.
However i predict the power of shuriken catapults will be seen now... (one of the reasons my nids will change owner...)
He did roll well with hist shooting initially and you know what the scary part was? He didn't even really use the psychic buffs of his farseer! If his farseer had survived, no doubt I would have lost this game. But the way he was shooting, he didn't really need his farseer. Lol.
My "superheroes team" just wasn't "super" enough. Lol.
Redemption wrote: Ouch, painful to see all 3 flyrants go down in a single turn. The Mawloc trick looks like fun, but seems very situational to me with so many things that could go wrong, the most probably one being either the Mawloc scattering off target, or one of the other models that are required to box in does so. Or am I missing something.
Interested in seeing the rest of the fight.
Bronzino88 wrote: Why did the doom get to disembark 6"? the rule for spore pods is only a 2" disembark, unless I missed it in a FAQ?
Without that 6" disembark looks like the WS would have had plenty of room to move out of the mawlocs way.
The damage output of the mawloc isn't the most important thing. I really wasn't expecting him to do a lot of damage. Rather, I was expecting him to take some hits and then die. However, what I really like about him is that he is another disruption unit that can psychologically affect the way your opponent plays. And there is the potential gem of a strategy of wiping out a unit if the opponent isn't careful.
One of these days, I would love to burrow and come out from under a surrounded land raider filled with terminators (or some expensive unit) and an uber-character. That is my dream with the mawloc.
Yea my bother owns like 5 lictors but I forgot they existed until the other day as he hasn't used them in so long
It's a shame as I remember they were one of the MOST terrifying units to face in 2nd edition. Them and the screamer killers with 10 regenerating wounds! But those days are over and now it takes real creativity to make them work and even then it is generally a gimmick.
I was raising an eyebrow when you went for the quad gun, but lets be honest I doubt the game would have swung his way with that hunter. He would have killed the tervigon costing you the four pointer and a FA point but that wouldn't have been enough to swing it IMO.
hence why I consider the loss. I really should have focused on the tervigon that didn't run out of gants to breed and made sure she didn't breed anymore...on turn 4 of course. Well he didn't plan on using the quad...it was just there.
The crimson hunter being shot down illegally actually had a huge impact on the game.
Things that would have most likely happened if the crimson hunter lived:
Last tervigon would have died, losing the 4pt objective
said tervigon explodes killing the lone gaunt and losing jy2 the 3 pt objective and line breaker
the explosion would also kill most if not the entire unit of gaunts fighting the wraith knight, freeing him from combat or letting him finish the squad easily.
Jy2 would not get the extra point for killing a fast attack.
So if all those things were to happen (and the chances are very high they would have if the crimson hunter wasn't shot down) that would make the score 5-4 in the Nids favor still.
Bronzino88 wrote: The crimson hunter being shot down illegally actually had a huge impact on the game.
Things that would have most likely happened if the crimson hunter lived:
Last tervigon would have died, losing the 4pt objective
said tervigon explodes killing the lone gaunt and losing jy2 the 3 pt objective and line breaker
the explosion would also kill most if not the entire unit of gaunts fighting the wraith knight, freeing him from combat or letting him finish the squad easily.
Jy2 would not get the extra point for killing a fast attack.
So if all those things were to happen (and the chances are very high they would have if the crimson hunter wasn't shot down) that would make the score 5-4 in the Nids favor still.
That would be a best-case scenario for my opponent had the crimson hunter not been shot down. But realistically, it wouldn't be that easy.
- Both units of gants were more than 6" away from my tervigon (but were still within 12" synapse range). Hence, no explosion for them. The unit in combat with his wraith knight moved out of 6" when they piled into the wraith knight at the end of combat.
- It isn't easy to kill a tervigon at full health and with FNP. He only had the crimson hunter and 2 war walkers that could shoot at it. Hunter would do: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds after FNP. Walkers would do: 11 hits, 6 wounds, 1.3 unsaved wounds after saves and FNP. He'd have to roll really well and I really bad for that to happen.
- Had I remembered about the rules mistaken, my tactics would have been much different. I would have moved the tervigon (and run him) towards the flyer instead while making sure to still stay in claiming range of the 4-pt objective. This way, the hunter would have to fly over my tervigon as it would need to move at least 18". Also, if at all possible, I would try to move the tervigon into area terrain as well. His base is big enough that I might have been able to have him touching area terrain as well as be within claiming range of the objective.
- The smart thing for my opponent to do would be to fly his hunter to claim the 3-pt objective, thus forgoing its shooting, and hope for the game continue. He would have finished with the 2+3-pt objectives + 2 bonus VP's. I would have finished with the 2+4-pt objectives + 2 FA + 2 bonus VP's.
GTKA666 wrote: jy2 said that the explosion happens in a 6" radius. the guy was more than 6"away...i think
Correct. I was careful to try to keep my gants more than 6" from my tervigon....except for the gants in combat with the wraith knight. Them, I wanted to stay within range of my tervigon so that they can benefit from his Poisoned buff. However, at the end of combat, they had to pile in, thus taking them out of 6" from my tervigon. Then next turn, I had to move my tervigon towards the gants in combat so that they had the Poison buff again.
Bronzino88 wrote: The crimson hunter being shot down illegally actually had a huge impact on the game.
Things that would have most likely happened if the crimson hunter lived:
Last tervigon would have died, losing the 4pt objective
said tervigon explodes killing the lone gaunt and losing jy2 the 3 pt objective and line breaker
the explosion would also kill most if not the entire unit of gaunts fighting the wraith knight, freeing him from combat or letting him finish the squad easily.
Jy2 would not get the extra point for killing a fast attack.
So if all those things were to happen (and the chances are very high they would have if the crimson hunter wasn't shot down) that would make the score 5-4 in the Nids favor still.
That would be a best-case scenario for my opponent had the crimson hunter not been shot down. But realistically, it wouldn't be that easy.
- Both units of gants were more than 6" away from my tervigon (but were still within 12" synapse range). Hence, no explosion for them. The unit in combat with his wraith knight moved out of 6" when they piled into the wraith knight at the end of combat.
- It isn't easy to kill a tervigon at full health and with FNP. He only had the crimson hunter and 2 war walkers that could shoot at it. Hunter would do: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds after FNP. Walkers would do: 11 hits, 6 wounds, 1.3 unsaved wounds after saves and FNP. He'd have to roll really well and I really bad for that to happen.
- Had I remembered about the rules mistaken, my tactics would have been much different. I would have moved the tervigon (and run him) towards the flyer instead while making sure to still stay in claiming range of the 4-pt objective. This way, the hunter would have to fly over my tervigon as it would need to move at least 18". Also, if at all possible, I would try to move the tervigon into area terrain as well. His base is big enough that I might have been able to have him touching area terrain as well as be within claiming range of the objective.
- The smart thing for my opponent to do would be to fly his hunter to claim the 3-pt objective, thus forgoing its shooting, and hope for the game continue. He would have finished with the 2+3-pt objectives + 2 bonus VP's. I would have finished with the 2+4-pt objectives + 2 FA + 2 bonus VP's.
GTKA666 wrote: jy2 said that the explosion happens in a 6" radius. the guy was more than 6"away...i think
Correct. I was careful to try to keep my gants more than 6" from my tervigon....except for the gants in combat with the wraith knight. Them, I wanted to stay within range of my tervigon so that they can benefit from his Poisoned buff. However, at the end of combat, they had to pile in, thus taking them out of 6" from my tervigon. Then next turn, I had to move my tervigon towards the gants in combat so that they had the Poison buff again.
Since even a best-case scenario does not end with an eldar victory, then why call it a draw?
Redemption wrote: Oh I know, I play 'Nids myself, it is my first army.
But for me they usually don't do much unless I get lucky. The 2-3 S6 AP2 Large Blasts he can do over the length of a game are usually mitigated or negated by cover saves, scatters or just placing any juicy targets inside a transport or in the upper levels of a ruin. They're a fun concept though, so I sometimes run 'em in friendly games for gaks and giggles.
Yeah, I love running them in my Apoc games where there are so many units and the board is cluttered. They tend to have a much bigger impact in those games. I'm still looking to kill a land raider full of expensive guys inside with my mawlocs.
jifel wrote: Note to self: Monstrous creatures, Deep Struck next to Eldar, will die horrible and painful deaths. Statistically, a Shurikan catapult within 12" will do the same number of wounds as a DE Splinter Rifle... Ouch o.O
I think one of your "standard" Nid lists would have fared much better here. This game is just screaming for Biovores! But this has also almost completely shaken me off Trygons. I never really liked them, but in todays Meta Nid reserves need to all arrive at once, and they need to do things THAT TURN. The threat of "I'm big and scary!" just gets you killed without doing enough damage.
That Nid list was designed as an "MC overload" but I think it played right into the hands of the Eldar list. Ymgarls, Biovores, the Doom in a Pod, Zoeys in a Pod, all of these could do a lot of damage if together. Of course, losing those Flyrants in one turn is horrendously bad luck and pretty much triggered your doom, but I think you (and I admit I did too) underestimated the Eldar v. Nids matchup. It looks like we may want to stay in that ~24" gap with our monstrous creatures until we've killed enough infantry to matter.
To me, trygons are bullet magnets to look scary and distract the opponent. Honestly, I really don't expect them to do much but die. However, if they do make it into combat somehow, that is usually a bonus in my book. But yeah, nidzilla builds can be good, but in a tournament, I'll prefer to take a more balanced tyranid army.
tetrisphreak wrote: While the eldar have some good tricks in their codex, from what i've seen in the batrep Jy2's biggest enemy in this battle is his own dice. Yes, shuriken weapons ignore armor saves on a 6, D-weapons cause instant death on a 6, mono-filament weapons are ap1 on a 6, etc etc, but it looks to me like between failing so many normal dice rolls like armor saves and grounding checks, Jy2 would be in dire straits with any army.
Interested to see how it plays out, but man those first 3 turns were absolutely brutal.
The game would have definitely been a much different one if my dice wasn't so bad in the beginning. If even 1 flyrant had survived, I would have used him next turn to finish off my opponent's mobility. Mawloc takes out his Warlord's serpent. Flyrant would have moved to get rear shots on the other serpent where he does not have the protection of his energy field.
But it is what it is. The fact that Sean was able to take out 7 out of 8 MC's is a testament to the powerful shooting of the eldar.
rigeld2 wrote: And this is exactly what I've seen happen running Nidzilla against Tau and Eldar...
I can hold my own against anything else (so far) but I can't even make it halfway across the board against a good Tau list.
I don't DS my fexes though (and I use fexes instead of trygons because I dislike the snake look). Maybe I should (but that means more pods...)
Tau....yeesh. Another deadly army for tyranids to go up against. To survive against their shooting, tyranids would have to get incredibly lucky with their psychic powers and get a lot of Iron Arms. You're also going to have to consider those drop units. That is their best chance against Tau.
If there's any army that gives my bugs pause, it would be Tau. I would have to think about whether they taste better with BBQ sauce or just ketchup.
For an unsuspecting opponent, it can be quite easy to lock an opponent into their deployment zone with Nids. In a 5 turn game, that alone can win you the match. Gargoyles are really good at it, as are spawned gants if momma bug stays fertile.
It's a tactic which Necrons also excel at thanks to Wraiths, Daemons with Dogs, etc., etc. In other words, you need to be prepared for that playstyle in a tourney and should have a plan in place for it.
For example, with my Chaos/Crons I have a squad of 10 Immortals which is joined by a Teleporty Cryptek 90% of the time. When I see this is going to happen to me, my Overlord will also join up with them, so they can teleport across the board and force my opponent to backtrack. When it works, it at least buys me a little room to breathe.
Baktru wrote: Three Flyrants gone in a single turn. I didn't expect to see that happening. As jy2 said, 1 or at worst 2 of them. But the whole bunch...
I'm afraid to say this doesn't surprise me one bit. At our local shop my brother's Eldar have absolutely annihilated all flying tyrants they have come across in one round (generally their first turn of shooting - as happened here), to the point that killing them is more of a sport than an actual tactical priority to him...
Still nice to see the Mawloc getting that one-in-a-million hit with Terror From the Deep!
That's quite a feat. Honestly, I think that killing 3 flyrants in just 1 turn for a 2K army - and considering those flyrants were buffed by 2 Iron Arms and 2 FNP's - would actually require a lot of luck. Keep in mind that in normal games, he only has to deal with 2 flyrants unless you guys normally run double-FOC games.
HQ: Farseer or Spirit Seer - stock (depending on what disciplines he wants or if he wants a unit of D-scythe wraithguard, generally brings a Farseer in the second slot points permitting)
ELITES
(generally neglected, occasionally brings Fire Dragons + Serpent in place of a DAVU serpent)
HEAVY: Fire Prism - stock, maybe holofields if points allow
HEAVY: Fire Prism - same as above
HEAVY: Wraithknight - stock
The firepower output is quite alarming to put it mildly. The last game he had was called turn 3 as the enemy didn't have anything really left to fight back with.
It's good, but there are actually some out there that is even nastier.
As a matter of fact, you're going to see my nasty mechdar list in a battle report coming soon.
jifel wrote: Page 49, "Deployment:" A FMC that is deployed starts in in Glide mode.
And, I'm very happy to see the turnaround! I'm still thinking adraw, although I'd have to go back and check how many points each objective was worth. I hold to my prediction though, Eldar can't muster the forces to kick Nids off the objective.
How did I miss that!? Its right there in the FMC rules.
Thanks for all the responses.
I am no longer surprised by jy2's amazing come backs. I am begining to think he throws the early turns for dramatic effect.
Lol. Nah, I'm not thaaaat good.
But what I do have is a much larger experience edge over my opponent. I know what my army can still do even after I've lost all my teeth. Those tervigons are just amazing in an objectives game. You really can't count them out until you literally take them out.
djn wrote: Great turn around jy2. That's what I love about nids, shove a load of hard hitting scary stuff in people's faces to deal with and all the while the tervigons are spawning gants and taking the midfield. Well done GTKA666 for bringing the hive fleet to the brink! Looking forward to the last instalment. Nid victory against the odds?
I do think that this game highlights the usefulness of the skyshield for nids. Placed dead centre when the flyrants come out to play the 4++ can be an absolute life saver from the inevitable return fire. However I think the torrent of S6+ from eldar and tau really has limited their effectiveness. 116 point skyray = dead 260 point flyrant.
Yep, that's the tyranid way. It's also why tyranids have been successful on the whole in tournament play and why they normally average pretty higher than normal in tournament standings. You're fighting threat after threat but what most people fail to realize until it is too late is that the biggest threat is the non-threatening tervigons and the humble gants. They are usually what wins the game for me.
That's an interesting idea, getting the skyshield. I like it!
GTKA666 wrote: ummmmm...I still consider it a loss lol, regardless of using the quad...though I might have just shot down the tervigon instead, but I definitely made mistakes that will be fixed. Our next game though....that quad might be better protected and no mawlocks in sight!
You may have just earned a shot at my quad-flyrant list next game.
Valkyrie wrote: Bloody hell, wasn't expecting that much of a comeback. Kudos to you sir
Thanks.
In all honesty, I wasn't expecting such a comeback as well.
Jy2, have you ever considered not advancing your Flyrants turn 1? I find that they often do get shot down, or take damage, when I do this, and its often not worth it unless I'm facing a list specifically unsuited towards taking them down (Like template spam IG).
With such a heavy reserve presence, I think you would have been much better off taking on e turn to hide your Flyrants behind LoS blocking terrain or out of range. After all, you have a 42" threat range, there's no need to get close immediately. I have had a lot of success however with my Flyrants buckling down for one turn, then advancing turn 2 with all my reserves at once. Usually this is just WAY too overwhelming for opponents, and I can sink his army in one swift move. I just find that we Bugs do best with all our "attack" forces arriving all at once, piecemeal we tend to suffer.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Since even a best-case scenario does not end with an eldar victory, then why call it a draw?
Because while the chances are low, there is still a chance, if a long-shot one.
In any case, if the mistake wouldn't have made an impact on the end result, I would stick with the win. But this mistake had a chance, however small, of changing the outcome. Hence I declared it a draw.
hippesthippo wrote: For an unsuspecting opponent, it can be quite easy to lock an opponent into their deployment zone with Nids. In a 5 turn game, that alone can win you the match. Gargoyles are really good at it, as are spawned gants if momma bug stays fertile.
It's a tactic which Necrons also excel at thanks to Wraiths, Daemons with Dogs, etc., etc. In other words, you need to be prepared for that playstyle in a tourney and should have a plan in place for it.
For example, with my Chaos/Crons I have a squad of 10 Immortals which is joined by a Teleporty Cryptek 90% of the time. When I see this is going to happen to me, my Overlord will also join up with them, so they can teleport across the board and force my opponent to backtrack. When it works, it at least buys me a little room to breathe.
Just something to think about..
That is right. You always have to have a mobile component to your list in order to break away from the clutches of a MTO build. For eldar, I really, really like the jetbikes as just such a unit. IMO, they just may be the single most important unit in the codex. They don't have much offense and all they really do is hide, but more often than not, they are going to win the game for you. Alas, my opponent is trying not to use jetbikes in his list.
I can tell you this much. When I run allies, it'll either be necrons for the night scythes or eldar for their jetbikes. I don't need any other type of allies (with the exception of Chaos+Chaos).
jifel wrote: Jy2, have you ever considered not advancing your Flyrants turn 1? I find that they often do get shot down, or take damage, when I do this, and its often not worth it unless I'm facing a list specifically unsuited towards taking them down (Like template spam IG).
With such a heavy reserve presence, I think you would have been much better off taking on e turn to hide your Flyrants behind LoS blocking terrain or out of range. After all, you have a 42" threat range, there's no need to get close immediately. I have had a lot of success however with my Flyrants buckling down for one turn, then advancing turn 2 with all my reserves at once. Usually this is just WAY too overwhelming for opponents, and I can sink his army in one swift move. I just find that we Bugs do best with all our "attack" forces arriving all at once, piecemeal we tend to suffer.
Yeah, but a number of reasons caused me to play more aggressively:
1. First Blood.
2. A chance to diminish his offense, especially if I could wipe out a unit like the war walkers. It would also help to keep my guys alive if his offense gets reduced.
3. Getting in a position to kill his skimmers. The only way to do that is to fly over them and shoot them in the rear. That is why I needed to be in a forward position instead of waiting in the rear.
4. I was only expecting to lose 1, maybe at most 2 flyrants.
But next time, I think I'm going to play the waiting game.
GTKA666 wrote: if you play the waiting game then you can call the the list "The Calm before the Storm"
I like that!
And that's pretty much most of my armies - necrons, daemons and tyranids.
hippesthippo wrote: Great game, btw. I agree, he really needs a unit of gjb with his farseer on a bike as well.
In my eldar list that I am working on, you're going to see a farseer on a jetbike....though all by himself and with the Mantle of the Laughing God. He is going to go around casting psychic powers with impunity.
The eldar list I am working on is going to be a tournament-winner. It really is a nasty piece of work.
In my eldar list that I am working on, you're going to see a farseer on a jetbike....though all by himself and with the Mantle of the Laughing God. He is going to go around casting psychic powers with impunity.
The eldar list I am working on is going to be a tournament-winner. It really is a nasty piece of work.
The newdar certainly have tourney winner written all over them. Are you running any tau to help?
In my eldar list that I am working on, you're going to see a farseer on a jetbike....though all by himself and with the Mantle of the Laughing God. He is going to go around casting psychic powers with impunity.
The eldar list I am working on is going to be a tournament-winner. It really is a nasty piece of work.
The newdar certainly have tourney winner written all over them. Are you running any tau to help?
In my eldar list that I am working on, you're going to see a farseer on a jetbike....though all by himself and with the Mantle of the Laughing God. He is going to go around casting psychic powers with impunity.
The eldar list I am working on is going to be a tournament-winner. It really is a nasty piece of work.
The newdar certainly have tourney winner written all over them. Are you running any tau to help?
Sacrilege!
Tau will only slow us down.
Ha ha another new army eh!? Don't forget DE, they make great allies when you need them
The damage output of the mawloc isn't the most important thing. I really wasn't expecting him to do a lot of damage. Rather, I was expecting him to take some hits and then die. However, what I really like about him is that he is another disruption unit that can psychologically affect the way your opponent plays. And there is the potential gem of a strategy of wiping out a unit if the opponent isn't careful.
One of these days, I would love to burrow and come out from under a surrounded land raider filled with terminators (or some expensive unit) and an uber-character. That is my dream with the mawloc.
Pre-Dark Angels FAQ, when the 3++ was still being allowed to be measured from the hull of a land raider. I played a guy who had a Landraider, with a his CCS and Libby inside (or something along those lines) surronded by about 50 guardsmen. I had 3 Mawlocs.
Haha yeah you and everyone else spamming waveserpents, walkers, farseers, and gjb. Everyone has already figured that out, Jim. :p Hate to break the bad news. Serpents put out the equivalent of like 4 chimeras and 4ig ac teams on a fast skimmer with 4+/3+turbo.
The damage output of the mawloc isn't the most important thing. I really wasn't expecting him to do a lot of damage. Rather, I was expecting him to take some hits and then die. However, what I really like about him is that he is another disruption unit that can psychologically affect the way your opponent plays. And there is the potential gem of a strategy of wiping out a unit if the opponent isn't careful.
One of these days, I would love to burrow and come out from under a surrounded land raider filled with terminators (or some expensive unit) and an uber-character. That is my dream with the mawloc.
Pre-Dark Angels FAQ, when the 3++ was still being allowed to be measured from the hull of a land raider. I played a guy who had a Landraider, with a his CCS and Libby inside (or something along those lines) surronded by about 50 guardsmen. I had 3 Mawlocs.
Field day.
Awesome. I couldn't even do that in Apoc!
Then again, I have yet to play against an army that used a LR in Apoc, at least with my tyranids when I was running mawlocs.
hippesthippo wrote: Haha yeah you and everyone else spamming waveserpents, walkers, farseers, and gjb. Everyone has already figured that out, Jim. :p Hate to break the bad news. Serpents put out the equivalent of like 4 chimeras and 4ig ac teams on a fast skimmer with 4+/3+turbo.
Well, mine will be one of the first true mech-spam eldar armies seen on dakka. Then people will think that I am the originator of mechdar. I will then get a patent on my mechdar list and anyone who runs it in a tournament will have to pay royalties. It will be glorious for Saim Hann and people will proclaim me the new Avatar God-king. Muhahahahahah......
I'm gonna go post my version in the army list forum first so ha!
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is a really good list. The only reason it isn't super popular yet is that Wave Serpents have pretty much been on back order since the codex released. Basically, it will change the way people write their army lists, as all of a sudden you have to deal with light mech again.
2 Farseer, Bike (Strongly consider Telepathy after trying for Doom/Fortune on the first roll.. Most things are already TL)
5x 5 DA, Serpent, SL, SC, Holo
2x 4 GJB, SC 3 Warwalker, 6 SL 3 Warwalker, 3 SL, 3 BL 1850
Options include dropping a Farseer for a Laughing God Autarch, WW unit for Spiders, DA unit for Fire Dragons, etc. Either way, the core of the list remains the same.
Maybe GW realised their mistake of the WS and are saying to everyone "NO SERPENT FOR YOU" but that would not fall in thier philosophy of we will take every penny you got. Troubling times are predicted to be ahead.
In reference to spam lists...I REALLY don't like them because to me it shows that the person only knows how to abuse and not how to use their codex. Yet if it was some one like Jy2 was behind the army it wouldn't apply because...its jy2.
Adding a unit of GJB is sacrilege to my footdar. We use the serpent because its a bloody transport and only transports shall be used...unless I add one other tank, but I am still uncertain about whether to take it or not. Maybe I will throw it in just for jy2 on friday
This is what I am thinking of running at 2K for eldar. Yes, it's a spam list. That is hard to avoid because most of the units therein are so good in terms of offense, mobility and defense/resiliency as well.
hippesthippo wrote: I'm gonna go post my version in the army list forum first so ha!
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is a really good list. The only reason it isn't super popular yet is that Wave Serpents have pretty much been on back order since the codex released. Basically, it will change the way people write their army lists, as all of a sudden you have to deal with light mech again.
2 Farseer, Bike (Strongly consider Telepathy after trying for Doom/Fortune on the first roll.. Most things are already TL)
5x 5 DA, Serpent, SL, SC, Holo
2x 4 GJB, SC 3 Warwalker, 6 SL 3 Warwalker, 3 SL, 3 BL 1850
Options include dropping a Farseer for a Laughing God Autarch, WW unit for Spiders, DA unit for Fire Dragons, etc. Either way, the core of the list remains the same.
I think thats the best way to take him, especially in a list with so much AI firepower. He has replaced fire prisms in my mech list.
While I look forward to seeing some battle reports from jy2 covering my favorite type of army (mechdar), that list is painfully dull!
I play with more expensive embarked units (dragons and Scythe Guard) and use the serpents to get them to their targets in style. Spam will probably prove more competative though.
jy2 wrote: This is what I am thinking of running at 2K for eldar. Yes, it's a spam list. That is hard to avoid because most of the units therein are so good in terms of offense, mobility and defense/resiliency as well.
Ouch yep that is quite brutal, do you really need those 3 jebikes? adding a suncannon and shield to the WK might be worth it.
&&Mental Note&& need more cover ignoring stuff...
I'd take WW over the WK. DA over Guard as you don't want 10 guys tosurvive in combat. You want them to die so you can shoot thecrap out of what killed them. And save points. Plusrange. Basic msu strategy here.
In my list at 2k I could fit 2x5-6 Spiders AND 6 WW bc of those changes.
GTKA666 wrote: Maybe GW realised their mistake of the WS and are saying to everyone "NO SERPENT FOR YOU" but that would not fall in thier philosophy of we will take every penny you got. Troubling times are predicted to be ahead.
In reference to spam lists...I REALLY don't like them because to me it shows that the person only knows how to abuse and not how to use their codex. Yet if it was some one like Jy2 was behind the army it wouldn't apply because...its jy2.
Adding a unit of GJB is sacrilege to my footdar. We use the serpent because its a bloody transport and only transports shall be used...unless I add one other tank, but I am still uncertain about whether to take it or not. Maybe I will throw it in just for jy2 on friday
Or perhaps their marketing team sucks and don't know how to forecast properly.
It's cool that you don't like spam lists. Not everyone has to. It's just a matter of personal playstyle. Reece is one who prefers non-spam lists and he has been doing really well with them. So is Janthkin and I am assuming hippesthippo as well. There are advantages and disadvantages to either. I really respect players who try to make do with their units and try to get them to work despite what everyone says.
But with that said, spam-lists are really strong if you know how to use them properly.
I think thats the best way to take him, especially in a list with so much AI firepower. He has replaced fire prisms in my mech list.
While I look forward to seeing some battle reports from jy2 covering my favorite type of army (mechdar), that list is painfully dull!
I play with more expensive embarked units (dragons and Scythe Guard) and use the serpents to get them to their targets in style. Spam will probably prove more competative though.
I suppose dull is a matter of personal taste. What's more important is if one has fun playing such a build. Though, really, I wouldn't use such a list in casual play, only in tournament play or as practice for a tournament. In casual play, I would go with less spam and more variety.
jy2 wrote: This is what I am thinking of running at 2K for eldar. Yes, it's a spam list. That is hard to avoid because most of the units therein are so good in terms of offense, mobility and defense/resiliency as well.
Ouch yep that is quite brutal, do you really need those 3 jebikes? adding a suncannon and shield to the WK might be worth it.
&&Mental Note&& need more cover ignoring stuff...
I feel that I do.
While wave serpents are fast, you can only move 6" if you want to disembark your guys. That means it'll usually take you at least 2 turns to get to an objective to claim it. Moreover, in order to do so, you will most likely have to move flat-out for 1 turn, thus foregoing your ability to shoot that turn. So you need to take 2 turns to claim an objective and lose some offense while trying to do so.
Another issue is that the serpents cannot contest. Thus, again, you need to disembark to do so and that would take 2 turns in most cases.
Jetbikes let you do both of those in just 1 turn and without sacrificing any firepower.
As for anti-infantry and anti-TEQ, I've got enough volume-of-fire to torrent those units to death, including monstrous creatures. There's a reason why I am taking 50 guardians instead of 25 dire avengers like most people. Bladestorm rocks!
hippesthippo wrote: I'd take WW over the WK. DA over Guard as you don't want 10 guys tosurvive in combat. You want them to die so you can shoot thecrap out of what killed them. And save points. Plusrange. Basic msu strategy here.
In my list at 2k I could fit 2x5-6 Spiders AND 6 WW bc of those changes.
I would prefer to keep the WK because I can use him for board control, he is a threat to anything that is not a horde, he is more survivable and a better fire magnet and the model is bad-a$$.
However, WW are good enough that I may consider replacing some warp spiders or even 1 unit of guardians in wave serpent for.
As for DA vs Guardians, I may use a mix of both. Not sure yet. But whereas the DA is basically a throwaway unit, guardians are actually a threat with their shooting, especially if buffed up with Guide/Prescience and Doom by the farseer. I mean, BS4 guardians with rending? What's not to like about them? As for going down quicker, with 5+ saves, they're still going to get swept in combat just as DA will. The only upside to DA is that a unit of 5 is cheaper than a unit of 10 guardians, thus allowing you to spend your points elsewhere in the army for more ranged firepower or elite units (i.e. fire dragons, wraithguards/blades, more spiders and war walkers).
Loved this report! Losing the 3 flyrants in 1 turn was disheartening.. I noticed they were kind of exposed and out in the open.. forgive me as I am new but is that normal? They don't have an invulnerable save that I know of and it would seem they would almost always just get pulverized. Do they have more durability than I am aware?
iNcontroL wrote: Loved this report! Losing the 3 flyrants in 1 turn was disheartening.. I noticed they were kind of exposed and out in the open.. forgive me as I am new but is that normal? They don't have an invulnerable save that I know of and it would seem they would almost always just get pulverized. Do they have more durability than I am aware?
No, I was just playing very aggressively with them. It wasn't the greatest plan, but with 2 Iron Arms and 2 FNP's, I actually felt I had a good chance to do some damage and then survive the retaliation. I also moved forward so aggressively because next turn, I planned to overshoot his serpents and shoot them in the rear. Then let him deal with probably 2 flyrants (I was expecting to lose at least my non-Iron Armed flyrant) and all my reserves. So I took a gamble but due to some bad dice (failing all 3 grounding tests the first time around), it didn't pay off.
Wow Jy2, you've been playing Monster Bash lists lately. Inspired after watching Pacific Rim perhaps? Excellent job getting a draw despite losing your Flyrants early on. GTKA666 did a good job as well.
Actually, all these games were before I even watched Pacific Rim. I've always been a nidzilla player at heart. This is just going back to my roots. Yeah, Sean put up quite a fight. He almost had me. I was so close to conceding.
I catch a huge break as Sean fails to roll a single 
to wound (out of about 8 hits)!
.
