Everywhere on the internet people hate on the Thousand Sons, but I've been running them in 1500 point games and they have consistently been the MVPs. AP 3 and effective 30 inch range means a unit of ten takes 9 shots (sorcerer generally casts or pistol out of range), hits with six and wounds with three (agains MEQ), meaning even with a cover save most units are losing two men per shooting phase. This sounds underwhelming, but two turns of shooting basically eliminates the threat of a heavy weapons team or can force a panic check against the unit manning the ADL so my Heldrakes are unthreatened. Also, if your enemy decides to focus fire on them your fast CC units are free to charge head first at the enemy. Additionally, 4++ means staying in cover is irrelevant; I've often marched them right down the center line and hoped the enemy focuses on them. So why does everyone advise against them? Is there a meta I haven't encountered yet? Or are people just put off by how expensive they are?
They exist in the same slots as Plague Marines and if they get assaulted, they're going to be stuck doing nothing all game long because they are absolutely terrible in assault.
All Tsons have hatred as per the fluff they are all Veterans of the Long War.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
setual wrote: Everywhere on the internet people hate on the Thousand Sons, but I've been running them in 1500 point games and they have consistently been the MVPs. AP 3 and effective 30 inch range means a unit of ten takes 9 shots (sorcerer generally casts or pistol out of range), hits with six and wounds with three (agains MEQ), meaning even with a cover save most units are losing two men per shooting phase. This sounds underwhelming, but two turns of shooting basically eliminates the threat of a heavy weapons team or can force a panic check against the unit manning the ADL so my Heldrakes are unthreatened. Also, if your enemy decides to focus fire on them your fast CC units are free to charge head first at the enemy. Additionally, 4++ means staying in cover is irrelevant; I've often marched them right down the center line and hoped the enemy focuses on them. So why does everyone advise against them? Is there a meta I haven't encountered yet? Or are people just put off by how expensive they are?
YMMV Being able to kill Meq in droves is nice, but they cost an army and a leg.
Lots of units kill them by ignoring their 4++(just make them fail their 3+ save in droves)
When firing at units in cover, they are much less effective.
When firing against Teq or Geq they are not better than regular CSM.
Having to pay an armload for the aspiring sorc is a pain.
Taking a Tzeench Sorc is an expensive tax to make them troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
McGibs wrote: What sort of meta do you play in that ignores 4++ invulnerable saves??
The one that relies on weight of fire. Dakka doesnt care about your 4++ as it is under your 3+ save and is never seen. A squad of lottas will kill 3 Tsons behind an ADL in a shooting phase the same way it kills 3 Battle Sisters in the open.
@Kain good point, but with all the fast CC options CSM have (especially with Daemon allies) there should always be something around to help them out if needed
@minigun the squad leader also has a 50% chance to get a s8 ap1 beam. and, as I stated, all those high s attacks at them means theyre not going toward your Heldrakes
Looking at them in a vacuum ya, they look way too expensive. But considering the way CSM work, is having a 4++ unit with ap3 bolters seriously a liability? Worried about them in combat, take a Bloodthirster ally (which I do) or a DP, they'll survive long enough for support to arrive (always have for me). Worried about lots of high s shots at them? Let them come, less shots at your Heldrake (or two, if you're competitive), which will roast that Devastator squad or V-strike those War Walkers to death once it comes in anyway.
I think you both made valid points in theory, but in practice neither of those points have been a negative to me. They either tarpit something until CC support comes to help or they soak up all the high s fire that could be going towards whatever armor/MCs you brought.
They are basically too expensive, can't overwatch, the sorcerer is ludicrously pricey and is stuck with horrible Tzeentch powers...and what they do is already covered by a better unit (the Helldrake).
AP3 bolters sound great, but any marine unit can just go to ground in cover to get a 3+ again, and good luck assaulting them to remove the unit with rubrics. A Helldrake will likely clear the same squad in one breath...for less points. Their 4++ is only going to be a factor if you face lots of Tau with plasma rifles (or other thousand Sons); everything else can just pile on regular S4-6 fire and wait for you to fail the basic 3++ save.
AP3 bolters sound great, but any marine unit can just go to ground in cover to get a 3+ again, and good luck assaulting them to remove the unit with rubrics.
Pretty sure majority cover is 5+, which means GtG gives 4+. Even if I'm wrong, GtG means they only shoot snap shots and I've already said a smart player will target small units with heavy fire, so if they're only snap shotting then I was successful whether they all survive or not. And why would any intelligent person think I was trying to get into combat with Ksons??
Your other points have already been stated, and I've already given counter arguments which you've ignored.....but thanks for the reply?
What sort of meta do you play in that ignores 4++ invulnerable saves??
The meta where, as other people have just said, 3 Missilesides can delete a whole unit in one turn. A 4++ isn't bad, it's the fact that you're paying a huge amount of points for a marine that dies just as quickly to AP4 or worse than a normal marine. This is why you don't see GK Purifiers anymore -- you can have all the gear you want, but when you're almost twice the cost of a DA tactical marine, and you die just as quickly to fire that doesn't break your armor, you're gonna have a bad time. Yes you have AP3 bolters, but there are two problems. One, you don't see that many marines in tournaments anyways. Two, your bolters don't ignore cover. In an edition where cover and cover shenanigans are easy to get, AP3 isn't as much of a benefit as GW thinks it is. The reason the Heldrake works so well is because it simultaneously ignores most armor saves and all cover saves.
And then we have the sorcerer, who would be so amazing...if only he wasn't restricted to the Tzeentch tree. If he had access to Divination, or even Telepathy, there would be potential for a good use of minimum units of TSons just to get a bunch of good psykers. As it is, however, they're stuck with the Tzeentch powers, which basically makes them glorified short range heavy weapons guys that need to make a psychic test before shooting, and then can get denied. All that for, what, an AP -- Small blast? A single S8 AP1 shot that then, because you're probably shooting at a vehicle, makes the rest of the unit's shooting worthless? A blessing that requires the presence of another character, that could either kill them or turn them into a spawn? If he had prescience, or perfect timing, or could be upgraded to ML2 and get Invisibility or Hallucinate, then you'd have a case for TSons for the sorcerer, but he's not worth it with only Tzeentch powers, and certainly not for the huge points cost you pay for him.
So, TSons are overpriced for a job that a heldrake can do better, die just as easily as normal marines, and have a largely useless and also overpriced sergeant/special weapons guy. I love me some heresy era TSons, but right now they just don't work in this meta. If marines come back into prominence, and AP3 or AP2 weapons become exceedingly common, then there may be a place for TSons, but even then, why take them when you can take a heldrake?
Im with you on this, I don't understand why everyone hates them
Because they are more expensive marines without an increase in effectiveness for cost.
AP3 vs. 5 is no increase? lol, good try
Because the Sorcerer is such an expensive tax, not to mention the Primaris and 1-2 psyker spell is weak.
Sorcerer tax is a lot, but s8 ap 1 beam is weak? lol, good try
Because they are slow, outside of a rhino
true
Because they Cannot Overwatch, thus even using their guns to defend themselves from melee.
true
Because they still die to mass of fire, making the 4++ useless
They cost more then Plague Marines, who get an effective double save that'll still be gained, who have T5, who have FNP, who have Poison.
true, but plague marines don't kill MEQs (still agree with your point
They have a horrible banner that doesn't match what they are supposed to do (kill MEQ)
No banners are worth it except excess, point irrelevant
They are horrible in melee, and the Sorcerer is forced to challenge.
they are the same as regular marines, except if the sorc makes his invuls he has a (small) chance of killing anything in the game. good try
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and as far as dying to mass fire: yes, but every single unit in the game dies to mass fire, and 4++ is nothing to scoff at. point irrelevant
Im with you on this, I don't understand why everyone hates them
Because they are more expensive marines without an increase in effectiveness for cost.
AP3 vs. 5 is no increase? lol, good try
Because the Sorcerer is such an expensive tax, not to mention the Primaris and 1-2 psyker spell is weak.
Sorcerer tax is a lot, but s8 ap 1 beam is weak? lol, good try
Because they are slow, outside of a rhino
true
Because they Cannot Overwatch, thus even using their guns to defend themselves from melee.
true
Because they still die to mass of fire, making the 4++ useless
They cost more then Plague Marines, who get an effective double save that'll still be gained, who have T5, who have FNP, who have Poison.
true, but plague marines don't kill MEQs (still agree with your point
They have a horrible banner that doesn't match what they are supposed to do (kill MEQ)
No banners are worth it except excess, point irrelevant
They are horrible in melee, and the Sorcerer is forced to challenge.
they are the same as regular marines, except if the sorc makes his invuls he has a (small) chance of killing anything in the game. good try
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and as far as dying to mass fire: yes, but every single unit in the game dies to mass fire, and 4++ is nothing to scoff at. point irrelevant
You ignored my point completely just to pick out one yet you still quoted the entire thing, and the point isn't irrelevant because apparently you can't actually come up with anything to debate my points.
Also, lets compare a similar unit then. The basic CSM
What can the 1ksons do that a single squad of 10 with 2 Plasma cant do better?
@tharlinye saying marines dont show up in tournies is incorrect, look up midwest tournies, many (yes, MANY) have been won by Dark Angels lists. Also, one s8 ap1 shot is inaccurate, as they autohit as many models as the line goes through, generally more than one, which makes it effective vs. any vehicle squadrons as well as better than a plasma gun, generally speaking. Plus, (and I can't believe I have to say this again) if the enemy is "mass fire" ing at your Ksons, the rest of your army is untouched.
Also, stop saying they can't compete with HDrakes for points, everyone knows that's true, and HDrakes are maxed in most competitive lists already, which makes that point irrelevant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, does anyone have any actual EXPERIENCE with them where they've failed? I've already said I've been running them and they're awesome, you're all saying they sucked based on theory (as far as I can tell).....anyone actually had negative experience? If so, how/why?
setual wrote: @tharlinye saying marines dont show up in tournies is incorrect, look up midwest tournies, many (yes, MANY) have been won by Dark Angels lists. Also, one s8 ap1 shot is inaccurate, as they autohit as many models as the line goes through, generally more than one, which makes it effective vs. any vehicle squadrons as well as better than a plasma gun, generally speaking. Plus, (and I can't believe I have to say this again) if the enemy is "mass fire" ing at your Ksons, the rest of your army is untouched.
Also, stop saying they can't compete with HDrakes for points, everyone knows that's true, and HDrakes are maxed in most competitive lists already, which makes that point irrelevant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, does anyone have any actual EXPERIENCE with them where they've failed? I've already said I've been running them and they're awesome, you're all saying they sucked based on theory (as far as I can tell).....anyone actually had negative experience? If so, how/why?
If the enemy is mass-firing at your Ksons (which is mostly just standard bolter fire and the like) they'll make their points back just by killing that sorcerer/expensive MEQ.
Plasma guns don't autohit, but your guaranteed a chance for it rather then hoping for 3-4 on the chart, and don't have the possibility to lose a 50+ point model to perils of the warp.
I've run them, quite a few times in a desperate attempt to make them work, from 4th to 6th, but they just don't work, and with Eldar having high shots at high S, they just don't have much to defend themselves with, and the 4++ is worse then a 5+ FNP.
Also, lets compare a similar unit then. The basic CSM
What can the 1ksons do that a single squad of 10 with 2 Plasma cant do better?
They will, on average:
force more 5+ cover saves
ignore gets hot
s8 ap 1, even with rolling only 50% of the time, means you will kill more than two plasma guns combined (which, statistically, voids one of the plasma guns). Plus, their 4++ means Battle Cannons, IG barrage tanks and the equivalent are irrelevant, no reason to hide in cover. Plus, if the opponent is dumb enough to concentrate fire on them or GtG against their shooting (which, it sounds like, most people in this thread would be) they've put a lot of points into whittling down an allegedly non-threatening unit. Plus, they're fearless so if you don't kill them all in a round or two of combat you've given my assault units time to come assist them. A unit of Chaos Marines will die in a round or two vs. termies. KSons will take twice as long to die, and once my Bloodthirster gets there you're not going to be winning combat for long whether you have SS or not (coming from experience).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can't believe I have to say this again:
IF THE ENEMY FOCUSES ALL FIRE AGAINST THEM THE REST OF THE CSM ARMY IS FREE TO ADVANCE UNIMPEDED.
You're really trying to argue that this is a weakness of KSons? I wrote in my original post that I try to bait people into doing this. Perhaps your list isn't strong enough to support Ksons then, but don't make your tactical inability sound like their weakness. If all fire going to a single unit of yours is something you think is negative then you've put too many eggs in one basket or have been playing at too small a point value to take Ksons, which is your fault, not theirs.
Perils is worse then getting hot, considering you still get a save.
s8 ap 1, even with rolling only 50% of the time, means you will kill more than two plasma guns combined (which, statistically, voids one of the plasma guns).
If you get it of course.
Plus, their 4++ means Battle Cannons, IG barrage tanks and the equivalent are irrelevant, no reason to hide in cover.
I'm beginning to understand how you do so well with 1k sons if your enemy fires these at them
Plus, if the opponent is dumb enough to concentrate fire on them or GtG against their shooting (which, it sounds like, most people in this thread would be) they've put a lot of points into whittling down an allegedly non-threatening unit. Plus, they're fearless so if you don't kill them all in a round or two of combat you've given my assault units time to come assist them
All you really need to do is force them with standard bolters/heavy bolters and the like, or alternatively just charge the unit with a cheaper, throw away unit and leave them there all game.
A unit of Chaos Marines will die in a round or two vs. termies. KSons will take twice as long to die
So you've effectively spent all those points for AP3 bolters, your S8 AP1 sorcerer, in order to make a tarpit unit that's still far worse then just taking Plague Marines.
IF THE ENEMY FOCUSES ALL FIRE AGAINST THEM THE REST OF THE CSM ARMY IS FREE TO ADVANCE UNIMPEDED.
You're really trying to argue that this is a weakness of KSons? I wrote in my original post that I try to bait people into doing this. Perhaps your list isn't strong enough to support Ksons then, but don't make your tactical inability sound like their weakness. If all fire going to a single unit of yours is something you think is negative then you've put too many eggs in one basket or have been playing at too small a point value to take Ksons, which is your fault, not theirs.
All fire? Seriously, you must be facing some terrible people with bad lists if you actually win with this.
You're making it sound like all your facing are new people who actually have never fought 1ksons before, which is okay, I mean you think your hot stuff and all when you beat newer people, but they just aren't good.
Perils is worse then getting hot, considering you still get a save.
False, get hot has better chance of happening plus it has two opportunities w/ 2 plasma (do some math)
s8 ap 1, even with rolling only 50% of the time, means you will kill more than two plasma guns combined (which, statistically, voids one of the plasma guns).
If you get it of course.
on average you'll get it 1/2, so half the time. statistically, this voids HALF your plasma. again, do some math please.
Plus, their 4++ means Battle Cannons, IG barrage tanks and the equivalent are irrelevant, no reason to hide in cover.
I'm beginning to understand how you do so well with 1k sons if your enemy fires these at them
sometimes heavy weapons are necessary at troop choices, have you actually played since fourth? I doubt it.
Plus, if the opponent is dumb enough to concentrate fire on them or GtG against their shooting (which, it sounds like, most people in this thread would be) they've put a lot of points into whittling down an allegedly non-threatening unit. Plus, they're fearless so if you don't kill them all in a round or two of combat you've given my assault units time to come assist them
All you really need to do is force them with standard bolters/heavy bolters and the like, or alternatively just charge the unit with a cheaper, throw away unit and leave them there all game.
Like i said, they're not sitting there alone. Bring some assault units with your CSM if you don't know how to handle tarpits (again, hard to believe you've played since fourth)
A unit of Chaos Marines will die in a round or two vs. termies. KSons will take twice as long to die
So you've effectively spent all those points for AP3 bolters, your S8 AP1 sorcerer, in order to make a tarpit unit that's still far worse then just taking Plague Marines.
Tarpit that's 16% better vs. power weapons? worth it in tourny settings (doubt you have the experience to know that, friend)
IF THE ENEMY FOCUSES ALL FIRE AGAINST THEM THE REST OF THE CSM ARMY IS FREE TO ADVANCE UNIMPEDED.
You're really trying to argue that this is a weakness of KSons? I wrote in my original post that I try to bait people into doing this. Perhaps your list isn't strong enough to support Ksons then, but don't make your tactical inability sound like their weakness. If all fire going to a single unit of yours is something you think is negative then you've put too many eggs in one basket or have been playing at too small a point value to take Ksons, which is your fault, not theirs.
All fire? Seriously, you must be facing some terrible people with bad lists if you actually win with this.
You're making it sound like all your facing are new people who actually have never fought 1ksons before, which is okay, I mean you think your hot stuff and all when you beat newer people, but they just aren't good.
focussing on two words of my point is petty, try again and I'll address it, newfriend
setual wrote: @tharlinye saying marines dont show up in tournies is incorrect, look up midwest tournies, many (yes, MANY) have been won by Dark Angels lists. Also, one s8 ap1 shot is inaccurate, as they autohit as many models as the line goes through, generally more than one, which makes it effective vs. any vehicle squadrons as well as better than a plasma gun, generally speaking. Plus, (and I can't believe I have to say this again) if the enemy is "mass fire" ing at your Ksons, the rest of your army is untouched.
Also, stop saying they can't compete with HDrakes for points, everyone knows that's true, and HDrakes are maxed in most competitive lists already, which makes that point irrelevant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, does anyone have any actual EXPERIENCE with them where they've failed? I've already said I've been running them and they're awesome, you're all saying they sucked based on theory (as far as I can tell).....anyone actually had negative experience? If so, how/why?
I currently don't have any experience with them, so yes, this is all dojo stuff. If you're having success with them, that's actually great. I really love their fluff, and I want people to field them because they're cool, but I currently don't see how they can compete in the current meta.
Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones).
AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant.
Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is.
Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.
There are, of course, other possible DA lists, but these are the ones that I've seen do well. Thousand Sons do not do well against any of these lists. Do you see something in common with these DA lists? A lack of power armor foot bodies. Inferno bolts are ideally best used against things like Fire Dragons or Striking Scorpions -- T3 with a 3+ save. If you face a lot of these, and can somehow get in range of them without them assaulting you first, then AP3 bolters have some use (unless they get in cover).
Here's the thing about their survivability. It's not 'shoot your whole army at the TSons to kill them.' It's 'shoot a single shooty unit at them to make them ineffective at achieving your tactical objectives.' Marines are pretty easy to kill nowadays. A single broadside unit putting out 12 TL S7 and 12 TL S5 shots at 30" will deplete a unit of T4 3+ save guys, and that's not that big a portion of a Tau firebase. Against Eldar, you're actually in a bit of better place, as long as the eldar player brought all their AP2 weaponry, and none of their S6 volume of fire...which they typically bring as well.
In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.
Here's one reason why 1k sons suck, the other guy has guardsmen, kroot, warriors with orbs, boyz, cultists/zombies, or gants. You are paying a premium to ignore a save on a dirt cheap model (which the necrons can have stand back up and the tyranids can replace), that never expects the save anyway and fire a vast amount of poor AP shots so the points you pay for 4++ is meaningless. I guess soulblaze can help a little though.
I think another part of it is special and heavy weapons, Bezerkers aside, the two most popular cult choices both have access to some special and/or heavy weapons upgrades, which allows them to be extremely versatile, as opposed to filling just one niche, not to mention they don't suck in combat either.
Theoretical: If Thousand Sons had access to Heavy and Special Weapons that had their AP improved by 2, inline with their boltguns and bolt pisols, would people take them more?
Thariinye wrote: [
Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones).
AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant.
Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is.
Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.
Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?
In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.
Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vladsimpaler wrote: I remember taking my conscript horde against a 1K Sons list once. Now that did not end well for the other player!
That just means the other player either:
only had Ksons as troops, which is not how the army was meant to be played (unless he was only playing a fluffy list, in which case he didn't care that he lost) or he gave you no better target to shoot at in which case he had a horrible list from the beginning
Thariinye wrote: [ Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones). AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant. Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is. Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.
Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?
In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.
Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.
How does it feel to be so wrong?
Thousand Sons are the worst cult unit in the codex (possibly tied with Khorne Berserkers but at least KB are much cheaper), the meta is geared towards everything that screws them over. Weight of fire annihilates 1Ksons and you don't even get to use your invul save. You will get tabled by Tau, Necrons, and Guard easily.
1K Sons have never featured in any winning tournament list, even in their 4th edition codex where they were almost exactly the same. I think you're the casual one here, but your projecting is cute.
Vladsimpaler wrote: I remember taking my conscript horde against a 1K Sons list once. Now that did not end well for the other player!
That just means the other player either: only had Ksons as troops, which is not how the army was meant to be played (unless he was only playing a fluffy list, in which case he didn't care that he lost) or he gave you no better target to shoot at in which case he had a horrible list from the beginning
Oh so moving the goalpost now? So 1K Sons need support and they can't be the only troop choice, and for some reason if you only use 1K sons then you're only using a fluff list? If someone only used Plague Marines as troops they would be fine. If someone only used Noise Marines as troops they'd be fine. But nooooo, not the glorious 1K Sons.
:edit: He also used the typical 2 Heldrakes/Obliterators and all that jazz, still lost. 1K Sons are a paperweight of the highest caliber.
Kain wrote: Here's one reason why 1k sons suck, the other guy has guardsmen, kroot, warriors with orbs, boyz, cultists/zombies, or gants. You are paying a premium to ignore a save on a dirt cheap model (which the necrons can have stand back up and the tyranids can replace), that never expects the save anyway and fire a vast amount of poor AP shots so the points you pay for 4++ is meaningless. I guess soulblaze can help a little though.
Guardsmen - easy to avoid, easier to kill with other units on my list. Guardsmen blobs are not competitive.
Kroot - I gain the 4++ vs their rends
warriors - I still win combat with literally any other unit I have on the table
Boyz - surely you're not serious?
Cultists - again, surely you're not serious?
Gants - Kill their HQs and they are a non-factor
I was told this was the forum sight to come to for competitive advice, the people who made that suggestion are quickly being proven wrong.....this my be my last post here
Thariinye wrote: [
Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones).
AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant.
Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is.
Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.
Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?
In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.
Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.
How does it feel to be so wrong?
Thousand Sons are the worst cult unit in the codex (possibly tied with Khorne Berserkers but at least KB are much cheaper), the meta is geared towards everything that screws them over. Weight of fire annihilates 1Ksons and you don't even get to use your invul save. You will get tabled by Tau, Necrons, and Guard easily.
1K Sons have never featured in any winning tournament list, even in their 4th edition codex where they were almost exactly the same. I think you're the casual one here, but your projecting is cute.
Haven't been tabled in a tournament yet, and yes I've faced every Necrom list you can imagine and countless Tau Lists (no one seriously plays Guard in tournies around me, but that could be a meta thing). You made an attempt, but 1/10 troll (cuz I replied).
Get some experience, son
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh so moving the goalpost now? So 1K Sons need support and they can't be the only troop choice, and for some reason if you only use 1K sons then you're only using a fluff list? If someone only used Plague Marines as troops they would be fine. If someone only used Noise Marines as troops they'd be fine. But nooooo, not the glorious 1K Sons.
:edit: He also used the typical 2 Heldrakes/Obliterators and all that jazz, still lost. 1K Sons are a paperweight of the highest caliber.
Not really moving the goalpost, you've just exposed that players around you don't know how to make lists. That's fine, they probably do ok, but one unit of thousand sons in an army can be a huge benefit if used right. I never once said they were my only troop choice, in fact i flat out stated I used allies so they could literally not be the only troop choice if I wanted them too.....how f***ing casual are you, newb?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, Noise Marines are not tournie calibre troops either....good god friend, go to sleep, this is not a discussion for you....
Oh, and as far as dying to mass fire: yes, but every single unit in the game dies to mass fire, and 4++ is nothing to scoff at. point irrelevant
Land Raiders shrug off massed fire
As do guard blobs, Ork Boyz, Plague marines. Even basic CSM. When you cost so little the amount of fire power needed to wipe or neuter the unit is obsene.
Tsons on the other hand cost so much that even a small amount of easily available fire will make them rather useless. 265 points for a squad of 10. 265 points buys you 44 ork shoota boys or 30 with 3 big shootas, a tooled out nob and 50 points leftover. At 18" they will kill 4 tsons. At 13-24" those Tsons will kill 2.22 ork boyz as the boyz will certainly have cover. At 12" or less, they will kill nearly 5 orkboyz, but they will also be in charge range. You know how much orkz dont care about losing 5 models? You know how much expensive 23+tax point elite tson infantry care about losing 4 models?
Or a tactical squad. 265 points buys you 20 CSM or 18 DA tactical marines. At 13-24" they will kill over 2 tsons. At 13-24" the tsons will again kill 3 marines out of cover but again 2 in cover. 2 marines is 10% of the tac marine unit. 2 Tsons is 20% and things go down from there.
At 18" they will kill 4 tsons. At 13-24" those Tsons will kill 2.22 ork boyz as the boyz will certainly have cover. At 12" or less, they will kill nearly 5 orkboyz, but they will also be in charge range. You know how much orkz dont care about losing 5 models? You know how much expensive 23+tax point elite tson infantry care about losing 4 models?
Or a tactical squad. 265 points buys you 20 CSM or 18 DA tactical marines. At 13-24" they will kill over 2 tsons. At 13-24" the tsons will again kill 3 marines out of cover but again 2 in cover. 2 marines is 10% of the tac marine unit. 2 Tsons is 20% and things go down from there.
You are 100% correct in this post. But, as I said earlier, (repeating things seems a constant with you people) you're looking at Ksons in a vacuum. You have to consider the rest of the CSM options. Ksons are not going to go after ork boyz. And no one (in a competitive arena) takes squads of 20 marines. You cannot keep ignoring the things I've already said when trying to make counter arguments.
Haven't been tabled in a tournament yet, and yes I've faced every Necrom list you can imagine and countless Tau Lists (no one seriously plays Guard in tournies around me, but that could be a meta thing). You made an attempt, but 1/10 troll (cuz I replied).
Get some experience, son
I would bet you would get tabled if you decided to bring 1K sons to a tournament.
Not really moving the goalpost, you've just exposed that players around you don't know how to make lists. That's fine, they probably do ok, but one unit of thousand sons in an army can be a huge benefit if used right. I never once said they were my only troop choice, in fact i flat out stated I used allies so they could literally not be the only troop choice if I wanted them too.....how f***ing casual are you, newb?
Players around me don't know how to make lists? Let's look at the recent lists you've made.
Wow, Terminators in 6th? And I'm the casual? Get wrecked. Using Tzeentch sorcerers? Man your butt must be getting reamed on a daily basis, no wonder you're so angry all the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, Noise Marines are not tournie calibre troops either....good god friend, go to sleep, this is not a discussion for you....
Do you know what a strawman is? I never said that they were tournament calibre. I said that you'd be better off with all Noise Marines as troops rather than with all 1k sons as troops. I'd say learn what context is but I doubt your feeble mind would be able to understand it.
Bring up casual lists I've, I guess that's an interesting way to detract attention from the points I've made in this actual thread....
That's funny, because it says "1k Competitive Chaos Space Marines" for one of your lists. Then again I guess you can't read (and you certainly don't get reading comprehension), because...
Thought you said you were leaving? As previously stated, not looking for the opinion of casual players....
I never said I was leaving, that was someone else.
You are 100% correct in this post. But, as I said earlier, (repeating things seems a constant with you people) you're looking at Ksons in a vacuum. You have to consider the rest of the CSM options. Ksons are not going to go after ork boyz. And no one (in a competitive arena) takes squads of 20 marines. You cannot keep ignoring the things I've already said when trying to make counter arguments.
I came back because I found this funny.
Here's the thing, outside of the Vacuum, Thousand Sons would be replaced by anything else and still you'd be better off using that synergy with anything else.
Also being hypocritical, seeing as you before was using Battle Cannons on Tsons as a benefit to them.
Your counter-arguments are weak, lacking, and make you look like you've never actually played.
My takeaway from this thread is that Thousand Sons are fine as long as you have other units which can handle the things they can't. Which looks perfectly fine until you realise that the "things they can't handle" is everything except power armour standing around out in the open within 18" of the Sons. And even then normal bolters + double plasma can do the job almost as well while costing significantly less and being capable of handling a variety of targets.
I've been playing TSons since 3rd and have seen them changed in so many different ways from being immune to S4 weapons to having 2 wounds to now simply being AP3 and 4++...Thousand Sons have definitely become LESS survivable from each incarnation and their latest one is just a lazy copy+paste with changes to make them worse IMO.
I get that the OP is all about TSons and seemingly won't acknowledge the blatant shortcomings and weaknesses of Thousand Sons. But anyway, as a TSons fanboy myself, I'll contribute my 2 cents as well.
So with all of that said I usually run at least 2 units of TSons in my army and they are fun to have but they seldom are the unit to win me games..They are just so gimped. My games generally have my TSons go "not the face!" while my Helldrakes/Obliterators and demon allies do the heavy lifting...
1.) So yes, they have a 4++ and AP3 but that is nothing fancy because the things typically shooting at them will force multiple armor saves so the 4++ doesn't save them and there is usually cover so the 4++ isn't really an added bonus. Sure it helps in CC but if they are in CC they are not being useful.
2.) The sorcerer costs as much as the HQ sorcerer, has worse stats, no worthwhile upgrades, has to issue a challenge, only has access to Tzeench powers and only 1 of those powers is worthwhile and not guaranteed....GW really SHOULD have done more/different things for TS to make them more viable...AS it stands, TSons are for funsies more than anything.
To really make TSons worthwhile, the sorcerer should have had (1) access to sorcerer upgrades, including mastery upgrades; (2) access to Divination/Telepathy; (3) not have to take a Tzeench power (4) not have the Tzeench powers be utter trash.
But I digress, you are welcome to believe TSons do not warrant ANY hate at all but really, they do. There are many things that are wrong with them that greatly frustrate people wanting to use them.
Gandohar wrote: I don't find them to really be bad at all. They are just expensive and they are competing for slots with better options.
So basically, you are saying "I don't find them to be bad.." but then give reasons as to why they are bad.
The bottom line is that they are sub-optimal from an internal balance perspective and horrible from an external balance perspective when you consider the general meta and armies winning/playing in tournaments.
Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?
...
Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.
Single Land Raiders aren't seen in competitive play, that's somewhat true. Land Raider skew lists taking three of them are seen, as a meta-busting list that's becoming more meta by the day. People are doing Necron AV13 wall more often now too.
I've just played a game against a RW list that runs the bolter banner. It puts out an enormous amount of fire, as relentless bikes get to always use the four-shot part of the Salvo rule. They have the maneuverability to get where they need to, and generate an enormous small arms alpha strike. The list is very hard to defeat unless you have AP3 Ignores Cover...like a heldrake does.
Azrael, while not quite as nasty as a Rune Priest in a blob (Fearless instead of ATSKNF, no psychic powers), is still pretty good. Giving 4++ to a 40-50 man guard blob isn't bad, and if Azrael picks the FnP warlord trait the whole blob gets to sit on a middle objective with a 4++ and 5+++.
I think the meta is a lot more open than you seem to think (going by your 'casual' labeling) it is. I also think that, even with that increased openness, Thousand Sons just don't have the tools to do things that other units could be doing better.
Also, yes I know that SnP moves you 6", I've played 6th Edition Obliterators enough to really enjoy the decreased nerf from SnP. I'm saying that if your opponent can't prevent you from lining up multiple low AV vehicles within 18" of a single model that can only move 6" in a turn, he's doin' it wrong.
He did convince me to use FOs in my dark harvest list, I'll subscribe to this thread for the lulz it will soon bring.
FOs in Dark Harvest aren't bad -- it's a somewhat similar situation with TSons. They need a few buffs in important areas, and then they'll at least be a viable option.
And why not just buy plasma plague marines?
Yeah, that's one of the other options. Plague marines will last a lot longer than 1kSons, and will also do a reasonable amount of damage if they have plasmaguns.
I've been playing TSons since 3rd and have seen them changed in so many different ways from being immune to S4 weapons to having 2 wounds to now simply being AP3 and 4++...Thousand Sons have definitely become LESS survivable from each incarnation and their latest one is just a lazy copy+paste with changes to make them worse IMO.
....
To really make TSons worthwhile, the sorcerer should have had (1) access to sorcerer upgrades, including mastery upgrades; (2) access to Divination/Telepathy; (3) not have to take a Tzeench power (4) not have the Tzeench powers be utter trash.
If TSons were immune to S4 or less, or had 2 wounds, they'd be a lot more interesting than they are right now. If the Sorcerer had any of those options, they'd also be a lot more interesting. Probably the most reasonable of those options would be #1 or #4. It seems that GW didn't want to give CSM in-codex access to the Divination Tree, for whatever reason, and they like forcing you to take the God-specific Powers. If the sorcerer were Lvl2 and had access to Telepathy, then you could at least get the good Telepathy powers, and if the Tzeentch tree wasn't full of witchfires and a useless blessing, the sorcerer might actually have been worth it.
I love my Thousand Sons army but they realy are only played if I want to loose or if we are playing a themed game. The points to have them in your army just is not worth it. Point for point the things that I can kill with my guys is just not worth it. They die just as easily as any of the other power armored guys and they do not bring anything to the table. The only time I consider them is as a small back field holder but even that is just because I like the Thousand Sons. For the price any other troop choice would be better, for that matter I cannot think of a worse elite choice either. It realy makes me sad.
Crawdadr wrote: I love my Thousand Sons army but they realy are only played if I want to loose or if we are playing a themed game. The points to have them in your army just is not worth it. Point for point the things that I can kill with my guys is just not worth it. They die just as easily as any of the other power armored guys and they do not bring anything to the table. The only time I consider them is as a small back field holder but even that is just because I like the Thousand Sons. For the price any other troop choice would be better, for that matter I cannot think of a worse elite choice either. It realy makes me sad.
Mutilators might be a worse Elite choice, but it's pretty close either way.
I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.
150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.
LeadLegion wrote: I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.
150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.
Why would you stick them in ruins when they already have a 4++ invulnerable save?
LeadLegion wrote: I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.
150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.
Why would you stick them in ruins when they already have a 4++ invulnerable save?
LeadLegion wrote: I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.
150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.
Why would you stick them in ruins when they already have a 4++ invulnerable save?
I assumed he was joking.
Well the only way they might do some damage in an assault is if something without grenades charges them. So being in cover is marginally better than being in the open.
Some of the concerns over being tied up are entirely valid. Thats where most people switch off and look for some other toys to play with. But if you defend well against this eventuality, such as the way Sisters of Battle Are also often played, it's not the "huge problem" that it sounds like on the internet. Its just a problem WITH a solution.
In any event, read it and if you get something out of it, yahoo. But I see no reason why one should especially villify them. Just takes a little work to figure out how they CAN operate successfully.
In any event, read it and if you get something out of it, yahoo. But I see no reason why one should especially villify them. Just takes a little work to figure out how they CAN operate successfully.
That list you posted in your blog isn't really doing you any favors. In a 2000 point list you have TWO heldrakes (speaking of no imagination...), and 36 models who are going to die just as easily as Marines to most armies, who will focus their anti-tank on the predators and obliterators.
That list you posted in your blog isn't really doing you any favors. In a 2000 point list you have TWO heldrakes (speaking of no imagination...), and 36 models who are going to die just as easily as Marines to most armies, who will focus their anti-tank on the predators and obliterators.
Dalymiddleboro: even if you were right, and for the sake of argument lets say you are: He doesn't need them to be better to win. He just needs them to win. As long as they do, you can be right about Nurgle being "better" all day long. Couldn't matter less.
Jancoran wrote: In any event, read it and if you get something out of it, yahoo. But I see no reason why one should especially villify them. Just takes a little work to figure out how they CAN operate successfully.
I got a laugh out of it, but I don't think that's what you had in mind.
"Inferno Bolts are AP 3 and that makes each and every Tzeentch Warrior quite literally the most durable equal of any normal shooting infantry unit in the game!"
What? They're only the most durable if the only thing that's getting shot at them is Ap3 or better weapons. So if your opponent is also Thousand Sons. They die to flashlights, ork choppas, bolt guns, pulse rifles, etc, etc, just as easily as a bog standard marine. Plague Marines are far, far, more durable than Thousand Sons.
"They are slow and purposeful, So they cannot Overwatch."
This is a huge negative. The only thing they are capable of is shooting, and this is one less chance they get to shoot than any other unit. And it's not like they will do much damage in the combat itself.
"In fact it is somewhat helpful in the case of Tzeentch, as it really only comes up when the enemy is losing combat because they cant sweeping advance,.."
How do they win combats with only one attack each? Especially when they can't overwatch if they're getting charged. If it's because they boltgun'd a unit and then charged it, then not being able to sweep is strictly worse than being able to, because either way you end up standing around in the open during your opponent's shooting phase.
"So when a charge bounces off them, it will never end well for a Space marine army!"
Charges don't "bounce" off Thousand Sons, they just slow down temporarily. It might take another turn or two to kill them all if you were relying on negating 3+ to win the combat, but you're still going to win it eventually.
"Icons of Flame imbue the members of the unit with Soulblaze. ... This makes them POWERFUL against hordes as well and allows the unit to provide both functions."
HAHAHAHA. Yes, getting an extra Storm Bolter worth of hits 50% of the time you wound a unit is absolutely the bane of hordes. Killing a whole extra Ork every other time you wound the 30 man unit makes a huge difference. It'd be a nice bonus if it was free, but it's not so it's strictly a trap option.
18 Tzeentch Bolter shots cause 6 Unsaved MEQ wounds. I'm curious why you think that not important? You think perhaps that the 4 remaining will have cause to forge forth for a second round, MAYBE get the charge and win against the unit and its Force Weapon wielding Sorcerer? Okay. Maybe but...
And how bout 36 Bolter shots? Do the math for me. How many MEQ's survived that? So really...
Not getting Overwatch is a bummer. I didn't say otherwise. Why are you accentuating this? The point is that the FEW that remain may well lose against the Tzeentch soldiers and if they do and run, the Tzeentch soldiers will then mow them down on their turn. And they Shall Know No Fear will not work against them. Guess what 70% of your opponents are playing?
You're splitting hairs about how LONG it takes them to beat a remnant squad.
Icons of Flame add damage output. This is good. Are all the armies you face without number? An extra couple wounds adds up over time. But if you don't LIKE the option... Don't take it. I'm fine with that.
Jancoran wrote: 18 Tzeentch Bolter shots cause 6 Unsaved MEQ wounds. I'm curious why you think that not important? You think perhaps that the 4 remaining will have cause to forge forth for a second round, MAYBE get the charge and win against the unit and its Force Weapon wielding Sorcerer? Okay. Maybe but...
And how bout 36 Bolter shots? Do the math for me. How many MEQ's survived that? So really...
Not getting Overwatch is a bummer. I didn't say otherwise. Why are you accentuating this? The point is that the FEW that remain may well lose against the Tzeentch soldiers and if they do and run, the Tzeentch soldiers will then mow them down on their turn. And they Shall Know No Fear will not work against them. Guess what 70% of your opponents are playing?
You're splitting hairs about how LONG it takes them to beat a remnant squad.
Icons of Flame add damage output. This is good. Are all the armies you face without number? An extra couple wounds adds up over time. But if you don't LIKE the option... Don't take it. I'm fine with that.
Is that with cover though? My real gripe with them is they cost an arm and a leg for... not that much. Their 4++ will rarely come up and their slow and purposeful kills a lot of their effectiveness. Now, onto the overwatch. What makes one assume that marines are standing in the open begging to get shot by all these shots without a single one of the Thousand Son members dying. Now onto the cc, if they jump into cc and escape though, this likely means they lost too many units (plus most cc oriented units I know of have fearless or a special rule like daemons to utterly ignore this problem). and fast units (beasts, jump, etc) don't need to be standing close to get off a charge. They can move 12" and then declare a charge! Now let us say they fail their assault and escape from the Thousand Sons. Now they can mow down the few that survived. But wait! That means they are doing something a plague marine could have done a turn later (plague marines, noise marines, etc could have swept moved forward and begun to fire at other more important targets on your own turn rather than being relegated to aim at the whittled down foe).
Icon of Flame would be great for free. However, it is another target that can easily be sniped out and isn't useful against hordes nor marines. Marines get their 3+ save as per usual whilst hordy units laugh at their loss.
I won't say they are absolutely worthless. You can bring a small squad of them for the fluff and fun, not to mention forcing marines behind cover and to move carefully, but their effectiveness is extremely limited, to become a troop requires a sub par hq be brought along, and are extremely expensive for units that die to las fire as easily as the next guy and even without that (4+ 5+ cover saves) will even mitigate much of this advantage.
Is that with cover though? My real gripe with them is they cost an arm and a leg for... not that much. Their 4++ will rarely come up and their slow and purposeful kills a lot of their effectiveness. Now, onto the overwatch. What makes one assume that marines are standing in the open begging to get shot by all these shots without a single one of the Thousand Son members dying. Now onto the cc, if they jump into cc and escape though, this likely means they lost too many units (plus most cc oriented units I know of have fearless or a special rule like daemons to utterly ignore this problem). and fast units (beasts, jump, etc) don't need to be standing close to get off a charge. They can move 12" and then declare a charge! Now let us say they fail their assault and escape from the Thousand Sons. Now they can mow down the few that survived. But wait! That means they are doing something a plague marine could have done a turn later (plague marines, noise marines, etc could have swept moved forward and begun to fire at other more important targets on your own turn rather than being relegated to aim at the whittled down foe).
Icon of Flame would be great for free. However, it is another target that can easily be sniped out and isn't useful against hordes nor marines. Marines get their 3+ save as per usual whilst hordy units laugh at their loss.
I won't say they are absolutely worthless. You can bring a small squad of them for the fluff and fun, not to mention forcing marines behind cover and to move carefully, but their effectiveness is extremely limited, to become a troop requires a sub par hq be brought along, and are extremely expensive for units that die to las fire as easily as the next guy and even without that (4+ 5+ cover saves) will even mitigate much of this advantage.
Not giving in to Hyperbole is always a good start.
First, consider the context. These units on their own will beat you to a pulp if you come in the open and hopefully no one disputes THAT (and obviously TEQ excluded, though they still fail saves and even 18 Bolter shots will result in a dead terminator ). So like a good hunter, you need to flush the enemy out. How? By employing two things that don't ALLOW the enemy to cling to cover any more safely. Enter the Heldrakes. Did you see the list? I posted the link not so far above.
Obliterators, Rhinos and Heldrakes run the interference necessary to stop the enemy from getting to the Tzeentch soldiers. Getting around such large bases is no mean feat.
What makes such soldiers work, as in all cases pretty much, is the supporting cast. So if you are going to talk about Thousand Sons in the global sense (which we are doing, I think) then you must concede that the enemy would be foolish to let the Heldrakes bake them relentlessly in the name of foiling the Soldiers from baking them relentlessly. What are they accomplishing? Their own assured destruction is about it. They either get OUT there or they hope like hell that they dont run out of bullet throwers first. And what stops the Tzeentch soldiers from holding back for one round just to steal bullets from the enemy while they wait for the Heldrakes to arrive? If the Triple LasPredator does its work in the first couple rounds and kills the Aegis gun, they're good to go.
No list is unbeatable. But with a solid plan, there's zero reason why Thousand Sons can't compete. More importantly, they ARE competing as the original poster has said he's having good success. Perhaps we should be asking the poster HOW it HAS been done instead of trying to convince each other that it CAN'T be done.
If the 36 Inferno Bolts are at equal points of CSM troops, roughly 25 survive. And if those 25 (including two champions) are BP/CCW marines, which if they're blobbed up like that they're likely to be, those 25 will kill about 3 Thousand Sons with shooting and then charge (let's assume a multicharge) to kill roughly another 4 without fear of overwatch. Not including whatever the Aspiring Champions are armed with. The Rubrics kill roughly 1 CSM, and then it's up to the Champions and Sorcerers to finish the job. One Sorcerer and one Champion will get locked in a Challenge, and without any upgrades at all the Champion has a 25% chance to kill the Sorcerer before he swings with his Axe. Both the Sorcerers, with axes, kill roughly a marine a piece. So it looks like a draw, with a slight edge to the CSMs. But the Thousand Sons are fewer in number, and have fewer attacks on top of that, so bar getting lucky they aren't going to be the ones walking out at the end.
So even after a fearsome volley, the 19 Thousand Sons (including two Sorcerers, as that's the only arrangement that will get 36 bolts) lose half their number to the charging hordes. They are then stuck in a losing protracted combat, as they have half the number of attacks of their foes but are no more survivable and fewer in number.
Let's face it. People don't charge things unless they think they're going to win, which usually means dedicated assault troops. Thousand Sons aren't going to stand up to that, even if they do get to fire a volley first. Especially when they can't overwatch. The fact that they can't sweep is almost never going to come up, because they aren't going to be winning combats unless they started them. And if they did start them, then not being able to sweep isn't a benefit, it's strictly a detriment.
Im lost. How are the hordes moving past the obvious other threats in the way? magic?
I get that a hordey unit might need to have volume of fire from a bunch of units, not just one. But if you just blockNBake... Whats the big deal? They'll never reach you.
Anyways I get that IF something ACTUALLY gets there and ACTUALLy is that large at that time.. sure. And kudos for getting them there too. Im not dealing in issues that are rare. Every dog has its day and even the worst player wins now and again. But if you're blocking, and you should be (the OP says he uses a Daemon prince and some stuff to do this) then its viable and scary. Only takes one round of lucky shooting to convince you and they will have several chances if they block.
Jancoran wrote: Im lost. How are the hordes moving past the obvious other threats in the way? magic?
I get that a hordey unit might need to have volume of fire from a bunch of units, not just one. But if you just blockNBake... Whats the big deal? They'll never reach you.
Anyways I get that IF something ACTUALLY gets there and ACTUALLy is that large at that time.. sure. And kudos for getting them there too. Im not dealing in issues that are rare. Every dog has its day and even the worst player wins now and again. But if you're blocking, and you should be (the OP says he uses a Daemon prince and some stuff to do this) then its viable and scary. Only takes one round of lucky shooting to convince you and they will have several chances if they block.
The same applies to the Thousand Sons. How are they getting into a position to do damage with their 12" optimum range without getting shot to death by the horde? Not to mention that there's not really that much left of the Thousand Sons army, as those 2 units to make up the 19 Sons are in excess of 500 points.
This is the problem people are pointing out. Thousand Sons are expensive, yet they die like regular marines. They are highly effective against 3+ saves in the open, but are completely negated by a 35 point rhino or by simply taking twice as many marines. They can survive dedicated anti-armour fire well, but get destroyed by weight of fire. Anyone who can handle fighting a horde army can handle fighting Thousand Sons without breaking a sweat. And hordes themselves aren't going to care, because the Thousand Sons don't have the weight of fire to make a difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just did some math on Soul Blaze for fun. Against MEQ, the expected number of dead MEQ if you apply it in the first turn and don't reapply it should it wear off (over a 7 turn game) is 0.3307291667 while the expected number of dead MEQ should you reapply it every turn as needed is 1.1666666667.
So 15 points to kill on average a single marine over the course of a 7 turn game. Assuming you can reapply it every turn, which is admittedly not as difficult for Thousand Sons as it would be for other units. I can think of things with significantly better returns on investment for 15 points though.
The conversation has moved on since my last post, but the reason I put them in ruins (high up in ruins, especially is to keep them out of assault range for that little bit longer, so they get that extra turn of shooting in.
It's situational, I admit, but ho hard is it to get a high ruin in the back of your deployment zone these days?
Ultimately, the most important reason to take them (and I do admit that, while I love them, they are over-specialised and over-priced for what they do) is that they are very fluffy for Tzeentch themed lists.
My Tzeentch themed lists does pretty well at tournaments by the way, despite the handicap of having so many over-priced units in the list. That being said, I never win a game by anything approaching a wide margin (but I never get tabled either) so despite winning more games than I lose, I rarely place particularly well. But then I don't go to tournaments to win, I go for a fun day out.
So the question you should be asking is "Why so 1k sons suck?" The answer to the question is "Today's Meta".
1k sons do have a number of strong advantages.
* Fearless
* SnP * VotLW * 5+ deny due to the psyker
* Force weapon on their champion.
* AP3 gun.
1k Sons actually fare well when they are facing lots of MEQ bodies loaded up on melta. The melta weapons are less effective given the 4++ of the 1k sons, and the AP3 guns on the 1k sons are useful for killing MEQ.
However, the meta is exactly the opposite. The majority of armies are xenos, so the AP3 is wasted, and anti-infantry firepower is common so the 1k sons are forced to use their 3+ vs many shots instead of the 4++ vs few shots. At 23 points a model, they just don't have enough boots on the ground to survive.
The other problem is that you don't really need all those great options your paying for. 1k sons suffer from the same problem as deathwing. They are stuck buying options that they won't always need, therefore come across as being overcosted.
The end result is that the 1k sons just can't compete in competitive play today.
Marines aren't taken competitively in 6th. Your local RTTs may still have a fair few marine players, that does not make them the standard of what you will see. Heldrakes and Marker'd Riptides have put an end to massed marines. It just doesnt work.
In 6th you are likely to see cheap infantry taken in large numbers with either MC, high AV vehicle or Flyer support. For the cost of 1k Sons, I don't think they are efficient enough vs. the aforementioned unit types. If you need AP3, take Drakes. They are by far the most efficient source of it. If you have 2-3 Drakes you are unlikely to need any extra dedicated anti-MEQ. I'd rather fill in the weaknesses by bringing units that are good at taking down high AV, Flyers, MCs and Hordes.
As others have said: it isn't wise to invest large amounts of points in a unit that only has a 3+ save. It is very easy for armies like Tau, Eldar, Necrons and Guard to force an overwhelming amount of armor saves. Terminators, Thousand Sons, Purifiers, etc, all fail for the same reason.. Too many points for a model with one wound.
Well I'll tell you what you should do: not argue with success. If someone is Winning...actually winning...with them, then I say pay attention. I watch my opponents undrestimate and THEORIZE all the way to the losers circle, again and again, personally. And I am constantly amused by their afterblubber. "Well if this and if that". If nothing. The scoreboard never lies. If someone is beating you and doing it consistently, LEARN. If someone gets on a forum and something is working, PAY ATTENTION. Even teachers learn.
So I am inclined to hear what people say when they are having success because it's one less thing to be caught flat footed against.
Jancoran wrote: Well I'll tell you what you should do: not argue with success. If someone is Winning...actually winning...with them, then I say pay attention. I watch my opponents undrestimate and THEORIZE all the way to the losers circle, again and again, personally. And I am constantly amused by their afterblubber. "Well if this and if that". If nothing. The scoreboard never lies. If someone is beating you and doing it consistently, LEARN. If someone gets on a forum and something is working, PAY ATTENTION. Even teachers learn.
So I am inclined to hear what people say when they are having success because it's one less thing to be caught flat footed against.
That's just wisdom right there.
Statshammer does not tell you what will happen, but what is a safe bet and what isn't.
As I'm not a gambling man I prefer to stack the odds in my favor and drink my opponent's sweet, sweet tears.
Jancoran wrote: You'll go thirsty a lot if you underestimate the wrong people. Just saying. Respect success. it's not accidental in this game.
Strategy always factors into my understanding of how to better alter the odds to favor me. After playing someone a few times to get used to their playstyle I like to start altering my playstyle and list to start changing the flow of our games until a soft-counter for his or her list and strategy is fully formed.
Someone brings horde? Well allied Colossus guns, heldrakes, dakkapreds, flamercide termis, and plasma/flamer spam plague marines sure do love punching holes in horde lists. As does using the predator tanks to tank shock them into nice bunched up groups to be roasted in one go via heldrake.
At no point do I see 1k sons being viable replacements for my plague marines when Colossus guns and Heldrakes slaughter marines and other infantry in or out of cover.
setual wrote: Everywhere on the internet people hate on the Thousand Sons, but I've been running them in 1500 point games and they have consistently been the MVPs. AP 3 and effective 30 inch range means a unit of ten takes 9 shots (sorcerer generally casts or pistol out of range), hits with six and wounds with three (agains MEQ), meaning even with a cover save most units are losing two men per shooting phase. This sounds underwhelming, but two turns of shooting basically eliminates the threat of a heavy weapons team or can force a panic check against the unit manning the ADL so my Heldrakes are unthreatened. Also, if your enemy decides to focus fire on them your fast CC units are free to charge head first at the enemy. Additionally, 4++ means staying in cover is irrelevant; I've often marched them right down the center line and hoped the enemy focuses on them. So why does everyone advise against them? Is there a meta I haven't encountered yet? Or are people just put off by how expensive they are?
I've been looking at this possibility and I've even thought about ahriman to give them the infiltrate. If you have some oblits bikes and heldrakes coming in your opponent is going to have a lot to worry about. If they're shooting at your 1k sons they're GOING to kill something and they're going to eat shots. I dunno I love the idea I just can't make myself do it yet. =/
LeadLegion wrote: I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.
150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.
Why would you stick them in ruins when they already have a 4++ invulnerable save?
so they strike first when charged by silly assault units that dont have grenades
Jancoran wrote: You'll go thirsty a lot if you underestimate the wrong people. Just saying. Respect success. it's not accidental in this game.
Fine then. I've steamrolled three Thousand Sons lists in tournaments with my Black Templars. They didn't do much damage and got cut down in melee because they couldn't handle volume of attacks.
What do people like to take instead of Thousand Sons then? Plague Marines? Berserkers?
For me, the main problem with a CSM is trying to make stuff Troops. Sorcerers are good to have, imo, and since the only thing you can make Troops with them is Thousand Sons, I thought it'd be worth it.
The Shadow wrote: What do people like to take instead of Thousand Sons then? Plague Marines? Berserkers?
For me, the main problem with a CSM is trying to make stuff Troops. Sorcerers are good to have, imo, and since the only thing you can make Troops with them is Thousand Sons, I thought it'd be worth it.
I just use Typhus and a Juggerlord primarily and go with Plague Zombies and Plague Marines.
If I for some reason am lacking in MEQ killing power between my colossi and heldrakes, I just give the plague marines plasma and/or meltaguns.
The Shadow wrote: What do people like to take instead of Thousand Sons then? Plague Marines? Berserkers?
For me, the main problem with a CSM is trying to make stuff Troops. Sorcerers are good to have, imo, and since the only thing you can make Troops with them is Thousand Sons, I thought it'd be worth it.
sorcerers are good, but paying 15 points to have 1 less useful power isnt a good trade. So unless you are taking Ahriman tsons arent going to be troops
Jancoran wrote: Well I'll tell you what you should do: not argue with success. If someone is Winning...actually winning...with them, then I say pay attention. I watch my opponents undrestimate and THEORIZE all the way to the losers circle, again and again, personally. And I am constantly amused by their afterblubber. "Well if this and if that". If nothing. The scoreboard never lies. If someone is beating you and doing it consistently, LEARN. If someone gets on a forum and something is working, PAY ATTENTION. Even teachers learn.
So I am inclined to hear what people say when they are having success because it's one less thing to be caught flat footed against.
That's just wisdom right there.
But this only makes sense if we have some information about who these wins are against. Terrible lists can beat other terrible lists played by terrible players. People here aren't being beaten by Thousand Sons. What we have is someone claiming to do well with Thousand Sons against unspecified opponents. Since Thousand Sons look pretty bad on paper, and many other people have some experience of them and don't find them to be that good, surely the reasonable thing here is to tentatively conclude that either the OP's success is exaggerated or he's just not playing against very tough opponents.
It's trivially easy to go find someone on the internet claiming that they crush everyone with [pick a terrible unit]. You've obviously got to have some way of determining which units are actually good.
Jancoran wrote: Well I'll tell you what you should do: not argue with success. If someone is Winning...actually winning...with them, then I say pay attention. I watch my opponents undrestimate and THEORIZE all the way to the losers circle, again and again, personally. And I am constantly amused by their afterblubber. "Well if this and if that". If nothing. The scoreboard never lies. If someone is beating you and doing it consistently, LEARN. If someone gets on a forum and something is working, PAY ATTENTION. Even teachers learn.
So I am inclined to hear what people say when they are having success because it's one less thing to be caught flat footed against.
That's just wisdom right there.
But this only makes sense if we have some information about who these wins are against. Terrible lists can beat other terrible lists played by terrible players. People here aren't being beaten by Thousand Sons. What we have is someone claiming to do well with Thousand Sons against unspecified opponents. Since Thousand Sons look pretty bad on paper, and many other people have some experience of them and don't find them to be that good, surely the reasonable thing here is to tentatively conclude that either the OP's success is exaggerated or he's just not playing against very tough opponents.
It's trivially easy to go find someone on the internet claiming that they crush everyone with [pick a terrible unit]. You've obviously got to have some way of determining which units are actually good.
terrible lists can beat uber "optimized" competitive lists. Good dice and a bunch of units that just happen to counter a specific competitive list can take a terrible list to a crushing victory easily
The Shadow wrote: What do people like to take instead of Thousand Sons then? Plague Marines? Berserkers?
For me, the main problem with a CSM is trying to make stuff Troops. Sorcerers are good to have, imo, and since the only thing you can make Troops with them is Thousand Sons, I thought it'd be worth it.
That's a very good point. What do most people use on their Sorcerers anyway? I was thinking on using Biomancy for my Sorcerer in my CSM army that I may or may not actually start.
sorcerers are good, but paying 15 points to have 1 less useful power isnt a good trade. So unless you are taking Ahriman tsons arent going to be troops
mortetvie wrote:I should make a shirt that says "Thousand Sons: Love the fluff, hate the rules!"
Change it to "1k Sons". As soon as you put a "k" in something it becomes cool. 2k13 and all that.
Jancoran wrote: Well I'll tell you what you should do: not argue with success. If someone is Winning...actually winning...with them, then I say pay attention. I watch my opponents undrestimate and THEORIZE all the way to the losers circle, again and again, personally. And I am constantly amused by their afterblubber. "Well if this and if that". If nothing. The scoreboard never lies. If someone is beating you and doing it consistently, LEARN. If someone gets on a forum and something is working, PAY ATTENTION. Even teachers learn.
So I am inclined to hear what people say when they are having success because it's one less thing to be caught flat footed against.
That's just wisdom right there.
But this only makes sense if we have some information about who these wins are against. Terrible lists can beat other terrible lists played by terrible players. People here aren't being beaten by Thousand Sons. What we have is someone claiming to do well with Thousand Sons against unspecified opponents. Since Thousand Sons look pretty bad on paper, and many other people have some experience of them and don't find them to be that good, surely the reasonable thing here is to tentatively conclude that either the OP's success is exaggerated or he's just not playing against very tough opponents.
It's trivially easy to go find someone on the internet claiming that they crush everyone with [pick a terrible unit]. You've obviously got to have some way of determining which units are actually good.
I will preface by saying this: attacking opponent quality on the internet is a weak play. Let's not go there. Terrible lists? some may have been and some may not have been but sweeping away actual wins by claiming this MIGHT be the case isn't really fair minded either.
Here are the facts we know when we assume he's not a big fat lier (which is an even MORE unfair and unconscionable thing to assume): He's winning. He has also said that he uses big boys as blockers. He's said a few other things too.
Maybe we should have him summarize the strtategy here that he's using, summarize the lists (no we dont need the entire run down for Gawds saker) he found most daunting and then look at that objectively on its own and say "Okay what part of that strategy would i struggle with".
For example,. my Eldar Air Force is unbeaten. 9-0. It's a LOT of fun. Couple close games, mostly blowouts. I was told "Thats crazy, theyre aV10" and "thats crazy, 495 points for a Seer Council?".
They dont say any of those things any more. But they did. People look stupid in retrospect only when they totally ignore the GOOD parts about what people are saying. EVEN if you could not see yourself using the list, you might want to consider how such a list WOULD be a threat to you. Attack it from THAT angle, the angle of good faith and its a dialog.
I for one HAVE monkey stomped Thousand Sons lists, especially a Dual Lash list at a GT a few years ago. But that does not speak to the ABILITY the list had to hurt me. The results were good, but not because it COULDNT win. So the question is, if that guy knew ME as well as he does now, would he have played the same? Nope. And our next game would be closer Ill wager.
So as fun as it is to so "No because of colossus", I'd chal;lenge you to tell me what Thousand Sons player doesn't KNOW about them and Prioritizes THEM? Its not as if every "counter" is going to be alicve to do its job when the time comes. hell I could go "No because {fill in the blank}" on ANY UNIT , PERIOD. Thats not an argument.
So maybe if he would kind fo summarize all this stuff for us and tell us about the opponents and so on, in one post maybe, we could attack it from there.
You know, we seem to be talking a lot about Plague Marines being better than TS for killing marines, but aren't we overlooking the awesome marine-killing, cover-ignoring, fel-no-pain nastiness that is a tooled up Noise Marine squad?
I do not understand why there is a discussion here. I play Thousand Sons and they are not a good choice. I love the guys fluff and look but they are just not worth their points. There is always a better option to take over the 1ksons no matter the situation. Name any situation and I can give you a better option from the codex in price and performance. Or if not me I am sure some one else here can as well.
The thing is, I'd really love to use the 1k sons, and one time I decided to do so, regardless of all the hate. (I still use my Defiler Boomba, he's a lucky charm). A unit of 10 with AS and a Sorcerer attachment, so a good few hundred points.
They spent the entire game getting eaten by a unit of scarabs, they just couldn't do the damage output required to beat them.
I only won that game because my Daemon Price destroyed the entire Necron army on his own and they phased out. (This was 5th Ed, I've never used them since.)
welshhoppo wrote: I suppose that is due to the fact that 1k sons and PM perform similar roles, whereas NM perform an entirely different one.
I disagree. The OP was talking about TS in their role as Marine Killers and Objective Holders. Noise Marines with sonic weapons and the Icon of Excess perform both roles equally well, even if that's not their primary task. The NM are a far more versatile choice than either Plague Marines or Thousand Sons.
As an aside, here's a video bat-rep involving my Tzeentchian list in my very first outing with them. I'm not sure it's entirely relevant to the argument for two reasons. Firstly because I lost (after which I had a six game winning streak ended by a draw without changeing what looks like a very weak list on paper) and secondly because, as I've mentioned before, I only take a five strong unit of TS for holding objectives in my back field and deterring MEQ's from approaching or enchroaching within their effective range (which for such a small unit I would consider to be 12" rather than 24".
Where it IS useful is as an example of how small TS units are often overlooked until late in the game. My opponent also talks in the summary about how the TS Sorcerer alone was sufficient deterant to keep one of this Terminator Squads hugging cover on that flank for the whole game.
I apologise for babbling like an idiot in this video by the way. I'm articulate enough when we're recording for the pod-cast, but point a camera at me and I turn into a bumbling buffoon.
YMMV, we aren't all playing in big pro tourneys, some of us just play the regular ones. I've found you can always find a job for them in a game, and a Tzeentch sorcerer is a great HQ so I really wouldn't call it a tax... If your planning on playing rough games maybe rethink. Otherwise Ive had great success with the Tsons and they are really cool models. Daemon allies will make them even better with prescience on your ap3 bolters, also that expensive sergeant gets a free force weapon that has more than once made back his points for me. Not saying they're the best troop in the book, but they are a very very long shot from useless. I like to run mine with dual sorcerers, 2 squads a sorc in each and just fill the field with psykers (2 pink horrors/2 heralds 2 CSM sorc and 2 Tsons sorc) makes for a fun list.
There simply isn't a compelling reason to take 1k Sons in competitive games.
Thousand Sons are an anti-MEQ unit. It's too bad, because MEQ are on life support in the tourney scene. You see them as allies to IG, mainly to get access to characters for ATSKNF (there are a handful of decent Marine/SW units worth taking as well).
The MEQ hordes of early 6th are gone. The main reason is, of course, the ubiquitous Helldrake. Supporters of 1k Sons can argue that they are 50% more durable to Drakes than normal MEQ. The problem is, they are also 50% more expensive. This is particularly important to remember, as Drakes aren't the only reason MEQ went bye-bye. The high rate of fire available to the newer Xenos codices (Crons, Eldar, Tau), as well as the inherent anti-MEQ-ness (my own term) of Daemons spells doom for Marines of all sorts. Against rate of fire, 1k Sons are just expensive Marines.
One can get almost two stock CSM for the price of a 1k Son. The 1k Sons get...an anti-MEQ bolter, a 4+, and a psyker with access to bum powers. It is also worth noting that Slow and Purposeful is awful. The anti-MEQ bolter is pointless, as MEQ aren't out in force. Common troops like Guardsmen, Kroot, Guardians, Cultists, and Horrors/Plaguebearers feel the same way about an AP 3 bolter as they do an AP 5 one. The 4+ save is decent, but the aforementioned high rate of fire from the more common tourney builds make the invulnerable save moot. The psyker is expensive and relatively worthless.
I can see why people would want 1k Sons to be useful, but they simply aren't. If you are playing in a meta that is 75%+ MEQ, AND you are super adverse to taking Helldrakes...well, I still don't really see it.
My local meta also has a lot of MEQ lists at present. That being said, most of them are CSM lists, with only two DA players (including myself - I just really enjoy winning with "underpowered" lists-) and one Vanilla Marine player. That being said, I really don't see many MEQ lists (other than Helldrake spam) at tournaments, unless I'm looking at IG with SW or DA allies.
I've been turning more towards Khorne-themed lists recently, but more for a change of pace rather than any feeling that my Tzeentch list can't cut it anymore.
Jancoran wrote: Well I'll tell you what you should do: not argue with success. If someone is Winning...actually winning...with them, then I say pay attention. I watch my opponents undrestimate and THEORIZE all the way to the losers circle, again and again, personally. And I am constantly amused by their afterblubber. "Well if this and if that". If nothing. The scoreboard never lies. If someone is beating you and doing it consistently, LEARN. If someone gets on a forum and something is working, PAY ATTENTION. Even teachers learn.
So I am inclined to hear what people say when they are having success because it's one less thing to be caught flat footed against.
That's just wisdom right there.
But this only makes sense if we have some information about who these wins are against. Terrible lists can beat other terrible lists played by terrible players. People here aren't being beaten by Thousand Sons. What we have is someone claiming to do well with Thousand Sons against unspecified opponents. Since Thousand Sons look pretty bad on paper, and many other people have some experience of them and don't find them to be that good, surely the reasonable thing here is to tentatively conclude that either the OP's success is exaggerated or he's just not playing against very tough opponents.
It's trivially easy to go find someone on the internet claiming that they crush everyone with [pick a terrible unit]. You've obviously got to have some way of determining which units are actually good.
I will preface by saying this: attacking opponent quality on the internet is a weak play. Let's not go there. Terrible lists? some may have been and some may not have been but sweeping away actual wins by claiming this MIGHT be the case isn't really fair minded either.
Here are the facts we know when we assume he's not a big fat lier (which is an even MORE unfair and unconscionable thing to assume): He's winning. He has also said that he uses big boys as blockers. He's said a few other things too.
Maybe we should have him summarize the strtategy here that he's using, summarize the lists (no we dont need the entire run down for Gawds saker) he found most daunting and then look at that objectively on its own and say "Okay what part of that strategy would i struggle with".
For example,. my Eldar Air Force is unbeaten. 9-0. It's a LOT of fun. Couple close games, mostly blowouts. I was told "Thats crazy, theyre aV10" and "thats crazy, 495 points for a Seer Council?".
They dont say any of those things any more. But they did. People look stupid in retrospect only when they totally ignore the GOOD parts about what people are saying. EVEN if you could not see yourself using the list, you might want to consider how such a list WOULD be a threat to you. Attack it from THAT angle, the angle of good faith and its a dialog.
I for one HAVE monkey stomped Thousand Sons lists, especially a Dual Lash list at a GT a few years ago. But that does not speak to the ABILITY the list had to hurt me. The results were good, but not because it COULDNT win. So the question is, if that guy knew ME as well as he does now, would he have played the same? Nope. And our next game would be closer Ill wager.
So as fun as it is to so "No because of colossus", I'd chal;lenge you to tell me what Thousand Sons player doesn't KNOW about them and Prioritizes THEM? Its not as if every "counter" is going to be alicve to do its job when the time comes. hell I could go "No because {fill in the blank}" on ANY UNIT , PERIOD. Thats not an argument.
So maybe if he would kind fo summarize all this stuff for us and tell us about the opponents and so on, in one post maybe, we could attack it from there.
The plural of anecdote is not data. He says he's winning, and he attributes it to the Thousand Sons. That's good for him. Maybe his playing area favours small groups of marines dancing in the open without cover. That would make Thousand Sons a good investment. But we don't know anything about what he's up against, and so the fact that he's winning has no meaning. So all we have left is the Op asking why people think they suck, which everyone has been more than willing to explain for him. I haven't seen anyone give a reason why they would be good that doesn't apply equally or more to any other choice or boil down to "But sometimes they work! Therefore they are not bad!"
They are expensive, they don't threaten anything other than MEQs, and they don't threaten MEQs that much more than a unit with a couple of Plasma guns would. While the unit with a couple of Plasma Guns would also threaten TEQs and Light Armour. They are excellent at withstanding units that rely on negating 3+ saves to do damage, but they fold like any other marine against units that rely on volume of fire/attacks. The only situations they excel are when you know that either your opponent will be relying on high strength (7+) AP3 or better weapons or that your opponent will be MEQs exclusively. Preferably both. Otherwise other units can do what they do cheaper and with more durability.
terrible lists can beat uber "optimized" competitive lists. Good dice and a bunch of units that just happen to counter a specific competitive list can take a terrible list to a crushing victory easily
Fair point. Really, "I've been using this and it's been doing well" is worth pretty much nothing even against reasonably capable opponents and assuming it's accurate.
I will preface by saying this: attacking opponent quality on the internet is a weak play. Let's not go there. Terrible lists? some may have been and some may not have been but sweeping away actual wins by claiming this MIGHT be the case isn't really fair minded either.
Here are the facts we know when we assume he's not a big fat lier (which is an even MORE unfair and unconscionable thing to assume): He's winning. He has also said that he uses big boys as blockers. He's said a few other things too.
But these are possibilities you have to keep in mind when reading about things like this on the internet. That's just how it works. I'm not calling anyone a liar and I'm not assuming he's playing against bad people. But those are very real possibilities - there are in fact liars on the internet, and there are in fact people who play against weak opponents without realizing it. If you find thinking about those very real possibilities distasteful, then at least consider the point hinted at by the other person I quoted - maybe the OP has just gotten extremely lucky. Lots of people play this game and lots of people have played with Thousand Sons. Some of them will have been a long run of games where the Thousand Sons do very well.
It's on the people claiming Thousand Sons aren't pretty bad to make that case. Thus far, it hasn't been made. It's a little ridiculous to take one person claiming to do well (in an environment we know nothing about and with dice that may or may not have been fantastic) as any sort of evidence - that's just not worth taking seriously.
I still have yet to see a reason to take any 1k sons in my typical comp list which, is usually a variation of this list adjusted to the points value, usually by shaving off units or slots when the points are too tight or adding more in Double FoC games.
Juggerlord
Typhus
Termicide (MoN)
Termicide (MoN)
Termicide (MoN)
(Termies may be traded out for Contemptor dreads or Decimator Daemon Engines)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague zombies for backfield camping
Plague zombies for backfield camping
Heldrake of nurgle
Heldrake of nurgle
Heldrake of nurgle
(Sometimes swapped out for Spawn or Bikers of Nurgle)
Obliterator of nurgle
Obliterator of nurgle
Obliterator of nurgle
(Sometimes swapped out for Predators, land raiders, or vindicators)
Allies:
CCS
Stormicide (most rarely taken)
Guard platoon with lots of heavy weapons
Guard platoon with lots of heavy weapons
Fortification of my choice: but the Aegis usually seems to be the most versatile.
Obviously in smaller games I wouldn't be able to fill as many slots as I want to, but generally my lists will be some variation of this unless I'm feeling in a daemonic mood or want to bring out the terribad Renegades and Heretics forge world list.
Between the Guard backfield lascannon spam, Oblit fire, and plasma spamming Plague marines, and the Heldrakes I think I can kill Marines plenty good.
I think the main problem with 1k sons is not that they are bad.
Or that they cost too much.
Or even the slight mismatching abilities thrown around.
They just don't FIT.
Other stuff makes the same kills, and marines are not high in the problem units list.
The ability to say "I don't need no terrain" is nice, but terrain is common as it is.
If your local meta somehow works with little terrain, lots of MEQ and too much AA fire to allow helldrakes to work (though I don't see a MEQ army with heavy AA access) then they are golden.
But thats pretty much the opposite of current meta.
I always favour units that aren't played very often, because they require more finesse in playing than the most obvious units.
TS are one of them. In 5th Edition I loved Tzeentch Lists and got some surprising results with them. But now they have serious problems:
1. Challenges. Your expensive sorcerer will get killed by a standard sergeant quite easily and then the main strength of TS dies
2. Warptime doesnt exist anymore and force swords have ap3.
3. Everyone can now move and fire at full range
4. Most important: You now never assault from a rhino ever...
and another point: 5. Meta has changed
In 5th Edition TS were quite powerful against other elite units in cc with a warptime sorcerer and their 4+ inv. So they had a task that was quite useful because many guys used elite heavy cc units.
Now no one uses them. Their weakness is not cc, their weakness is shooting.
Examples:
What do you do against a ravenwing bolter banner list? Not speaking of the 4 LRC List with bolter banner, which is a nasty hard counter against TS. He gets 4 shots TL and you get 1. You wound on 5+, he wounds on 4+. He has 3+ save from Darkshroud until your Drake killed it and then still 5+, you get 3+, so he is basically 4 times as effective per model in shooting, faster, better (more flexible) in cc.
4 LRC is autolose because you don't have anything at all against those. One luck chance with oblits and then they're dead and thats gg for you.
What do you do against Coteaz Razorspam? He just lolz TL S6 shots at you and you do exactly nothing. If he has aegis defence line, he has a good chance to down the drakes and coteaz' special rule multiplies the effect.
What do you do against 180 shootaboyz + lootaz?
What do you do against 3 Dettas, 2 Manticore badass IG? Absolutely nothing.
BTW: If your anwer is Heldrake, Heldrake, Oblits, Oblits, then, yeah: Heldrakes and oblits are the answer to many things, so why not a third heldrake and more oblits and less TS?
So the problem is, everyone is now able to kill MEQ in shooting quite easily. And almost every useful unit outshoots TS either by quality or by numbers, because one S4 ap 3 shot per model just doesnt do the trick and is just too expensive.
Believe me, I have played them in the past, I have tried them now, I am an inventive player. But if you have serious success with them, your opponents don't know them well enough (either out of ignorance or inexperience). Both things need to be punished.
So keep playing them and punish your opponents, but don't expect the same results against experienced and cunning opponents with smart lists.
Success with a list is a subjective thing. Some people would find 50% of their games successful, it also doesnt take into account the "competitiveness" of opponents and their lists. I also am not quick to accept personal accounts unless I know that person and have reason to believe them. So generally, unless a person can show me results with a name I'm going to err on the side of not believing them... Call me a skeptic.
Either way, if 1k Sons work for someone, I'd never criticize them. I would however criticize the notion that they are a good or optimal unit choice. I know that I have used underpowered units and felt comfortable doing so, but I would never recommend them to other players as if they were optimal. Mileage varies by player and list, but I do think that there are obviously "better" and obviously "worse" units in every codex. 1K Sons, IMO, fall into the latter.
Success is never subjective. It happened or it didn't. Period. So I will call you a skeptic indeed.
Weakest internet sauce ever:
A. Your oponent sucks
B. Their list sucks (even though you havent SEEN EITHER) or
C. You're lying.
If thats the ONLy thing you bring to the table as an argument, then you are to be ignored. On the other hand if you have something valid to bring to the table, let THAT stand on its own merits, because if you have an actual valid point, then you dont NEED to fall back on this weak sauce.
I promise you that when I am taking home the prize money and the kudos, I am not going to give a RIP what someones theory was. Everyone at tournies has the same job: Beat whose in front of you. If its Thousand Sons that hands out the beatings then I am all ears as to what they did. Why? Well in case we forgot, this is a tactics thread.
My experience with Thousand Sons has been all positive. but then, the army is built to compliment them. I suppose any unit can look terribad in a vacuum.
I sold my army beginning of 6th although i love there fluff the most, an been doing ok in 5th and 6th but that is it.
Where do they loose:
Plaguemarines that simple and why:
- 2 special weapons is better than the sorc.
- T5 and 3+&5+fnp is much better than T4 and 3+/4++
- poison attacks against big monster and blight grenades to minimize attacks
- champ with combi and axe is much better and less expensive than sorc.
- no sweeping advance if you happen to win the combat...
- Sorc 50% chance to get a crap power...
So i did as many and ran to nurgle for a competitve army and the model i love the most model & ruleswise: Typhus.
Still looking to make something fluffy in there, but also competitive.
That is number2 Ahriman consistenly sucks altough he should be a beast, i mean common no DIVINATION, what have they been smoking at GW.
MSU is still king when running cult units and 1k sons are crap in MSU config.
@ Jancoran: If the only argument you can bring to the table is an unverifiable claim then you are to be ignored as well. There are a thousand conspiracy websites out there that make many stupid claims about almost impossible events. Personal experience is one of the most common sources of proof for UFO, Bigfoot, and Loch Ness Monster sightings. It's why personal stories and experience aren't trustworthy. Because there are people on the internet who abuse people's trust and expecting someone to validate a claim is not something absurd.
People can lie, exaggerate, remember things wrong, or just get bad information and try to tell a second hand story. We can't determine things about a person via text unless they are being rather upfront about it.
But as you said, this is a tactic thread. So would you care to share your tactical advice on how to use them and how to build a list around them?
Im not the OP, Savageconvoy and name one person here who can truly "verify": anything. Direct your silliness to the OP if you weantbut that made NO sense. Nothing NEEDS to be "validated" here nor has it often been on any thread here. This is a sharing of experience, not a flipping Government approved clinical testing facility.
Learn. Thats my message, Or don't. It get so weary of the idiotic three headed monster of "nuh uh" people use. It's just such a waste of time and such a non sequitor that there's no point in even going there with those three arguments. Ever.
Now if he told us "Yes, I played a Triple Drake list wityh Nurgle and beat them" thats good to know. And if he said "yes, i played a Noise marine list with a ton of Dakka and the outflanking Daemons thing" then thats also useful to know. But we dont need to know 100% of his opponent list to understand the tactics.
What he hasn't done, which I exhorted him to do, was to provide MORE info on some of that. because unlike some people, I dont jump to these 3 silly defenses without more info.
Abuse trust? Psh. Its tyhe internet. haven't you heard? no one lies o nthe internet. Lol. Live your live paranoid of it or get over it. your choice there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valek wrote: I sold my army beginning of 6th although i love there fluff the most, an been doing ok in 5th and 6th but that is it.
Where do they loose:
Plaguemarines that simple and why:
- 2 special weapons is better than the sorc.
- T5 and 3+&5+fnp is much better than T4 and 3+/4++
- poison attacks against big monster and blight grenades to minimize attacks
- champ with combi and axe is much better and less expensive than sorc.
- no sweeping advance if you happen to win the combat...
- Sorc 50% chance to get a crap power...
So i did as many and ran to nurgle for a competitve army and the model i love the most model & ruleswise: Typhus.
Still looking to make something fluffy in there, but also competitive.
That is number2 Ahriman consistenly sucks altough he should be a beast, i mean common no DIVINATION, what have they been smoking at GW.
MSU is still king when running cult units and 1k sons are crap in MSU config.
See now this is experience I can get something out of. This is an argument that doesn't need the three headed "nuh uh" button.
So here's my response:
Why are we actually COMPARING a shootign unit to a melee one. While Nurgle shoots, thats nottheir function and everyone playing them or against them knows that. A list built to take advantage of Nurgles gifts is not going to be based around their shooting. It is based around the things you mentioned: melee primarily. Because they do it well.
Thousand Sons list are shooters. When I compare the shooting of Nurgle to them, well... Ya know....
Thousand Sons need blockers to be and stay effective and they need to "jump" their targets, maybe staying in the shadows of rhinos to pretect against return fire at times. More of a guerrilla feel to them. So the list morphs because of those needs. The Thousand Sons Don't worry about melee often because if they have to, the rest of the list probably broke down. left to shoot for several rounds, they will definitely make your face hurt.
Average Marine armies contain 45-50 models. There are bigger ones, but that's a commonplace number. When facing Zenos, who are more squishy as a rule, they usually have larger numbers but are far more susceptible to AP 3. If I can kill 30 Marines relatively quickly and assuredly, most of the time, that's all the scoring units the enemy has. So if you dedicate the Thousand Sons to firing on scoring units as often and always as possible, it's a good bet those will wilt to the background to save their hides rather than rushing to threaten them in melee.
So what SEEMS to be happening is that Nurgle is being favored because its so hard to kill them in melee and they are good in melee, but really, you dont even worry about that if melee never happens.
Its kind of like comparing Wyches to Dark Eldar warriors. totally different roles.
In theory if you wanted, a Thousand Sons army could incorporate Nurgle forces to protect them from getting trapped in a fight without essentially changing the list into a Nurgle list. This is no more or less valid than using a Daemon prince like the OP does or even Heldrake bases.
Wait, did you just claim that Plague Marines are melee units? You take them for their double special weapon, T5 FNP and fearlessness, just like last edition when they didn't have poisoned CCWs and were still seen as vastly superior to Thousand Sons. Most of the time you don't want Plague Marines to be in close combat, because that means they're not firing their double Plasma/Melta.
The reason Plague Marines are favoured over Thousand Sons isn't because they're a melee unit, it's because double plasma with a combi-weapon is almost as effective against MEQ as Thousand Sons and much better against high T models and armour, while the T5 FNP lets you live against torrent of fire better. In summary, Plague Marines are better at shooting, better at melee and better at surviving the most common anti-infantry weapons in the game than Thousand Sons. Furthermore, the fact that you can make them scoring with Typhus or a Nurgle Lord means that you don't have to waste an HQ slot on a Sorcerer who has to roll on the Tzeentch table, which is rather awful.
I have a small problem with your argumentation: It is very vague. (I have read your thread btw. )
I can't see why you choose to take specifically Thousand Sons over any other units. Which quality is so important for you, that TS are more successful than comparable infantry units?
You said, you fielded them together with Heldrakes and Oblits and the resulting list had been successful.
Now my issue is, that Heldrakes and Oblits are capable of crushing many armies on their own, so it is a bit unfair to credit TS for that while degrading Heldrake and Oblit to a "complementing unit".
My guess is, your TS were expensive scorers who took a shot here and there and went off unharmed because they were well hidden, right?
So I would think, well you can take 3x cultists as well, who would do the hiding job equally well for 1/4 of the cost. So they would be far more efficient. The points could be invested in more Oblits and Drakes, who would wreak more havoc amongst the enemy than TS do.
But if you have some valuable insights or something I completely forgot (concerning a certain task on the battlefield which makes TS necessary in particular), I would be glad if you let me know, because I am keen to learn new ideas.
To answer the OP.
I love to take Thousand Sons! I just adore a unit that costs as much as terminators, but get killed as easily as normal space Marines, can't take special weapons and just slowly lumber across the battle field. Sign me up! Oh, and I also love how the masters of the warp, Tzeentch itself, gets the lamest powers. Makes total sense.
Wait....I think I may have had my sarcasm turned to 11. It's late at night.
I have a small problem with your argumentation: It is very vague. (I have read your thread btw. )
I can't see why you choose to take specifically Thousand Sons over any other units. Which quality is so important for you, that TS are more successful than comparable infantry units?
You said, you fielded them together with Heldrakes and Oblits and the resulting list had been successful.
Now my issue is, that Heldrakes and Oblits are capable of crushing many armies on their own, so it is a bit unfair to credit TS for that while degrading Heldrake and Oblit to a "complementing unit".
My guess is, your TS were expensive scorers who took a shot here and there and went off unharmed because they were well hidden, right?
So I would think, well you can take 3x cultists as well, who would do the hiding job equally well for 1/4 of the cost. So they would be far more efficient. The points could be invested in more Oblits and Drakes, who would wreak more havoc amongst the enemy than TS do.
But if you have some valuable insights or something I completely forgot (concerning a certain task on the battlefield which makes TS necessary in particular), I would be glad if you let me know, because I am keen to learn new ideas.
Again Im not the OP, and my Blog entry you read was specifically to construct CULT armies, not all around generalist armies. Just to be clear. Someone had asked me for help on making Khorne work (and he has recently appraised me of his 5-1 record using the blog as a guiding light) and while I was at it I designed pure cults for all the different factions. It started as just helping with the one army.
Also to be clear, since intent gets lost in forums, I am suggesting that people learn from success on a TACTICS thread instead of wasting anyones time with the three headed "nuh uh" button. Its lazy and its stupid, all at the same time in my opinion. Points need to stand on their own merit.
Lastly, I should not be construed as saying "Thousand Sons or bust". I'm not. I'm just trying to explain how I see them working.
Now my blog points out a lot of what I liked about the army. So I wont repeat myself too much. Hope this is specific enough.
1. Instant Death weapon. Say what one will, this is a big deal. On its own, that represnts a utility the Plague Marines lack completely. I am seeing TripleTides with a WraithKnight in one army. Let me tell you: Instant Death can matter, cause its still a dice game. No matter the "general" performance of either unit, this particular utility is no small thing.
2. SoulBlaze isn't the second coming but many Xenos races will hate it and it can be important in a round where you're not free to dedicate any fire to that unit. Also it can tip the scale on a units ability to regroup. I'm not trying to make it sound bigger than it is, but when every unit in the army is in flames, it can be a significant amount oif damage over time. You're not just doing it to one unit. You're saturating the enemy with it the first couple rounds.
3. Area denial: Certain units just wont come out to play if they know the Thousand Sons can reach them with their bolters. Though the Thousand Sons die to bolters like all Marines, the risk the ENEMY takes of having their unit wasted is greater than any return the enemy gets for rapidfiring at times. Are YOU going to take that chance early or often? Nope. So units will stay in those rhinos and fire less often to preserve their lives, which just plays to the long game strategy of Thousand Sons WITH Heldrakes. enemies WILL dare the Plague Marines to shoot them. Also, special weapons DO get killed if you bring them close enough to rapid fire. Precision shot is really cool on the new Eldar Crimson Hunter on a 5+. The amount of sniping in general with Artillery etc... increases the chances the Plasma can be taken out in the Plague squads IF its proving to be imminent. Thousand sons care LESS if you kill guy X or Z. Just the Sorcerer pretty much, but in games where instant Death isnt as necessary, neither is his loss particularly felt. Risk/Reward there seems in the Thousand Sons favor (if only very slightly, as I acknowledge that the plasma is good while alive in those Nurgle units).
4. Tzeentch FireStorm is pretty beefy at times. Nearly as good as a Slaanesh small blast and mobile! Its randomness isn't awesome, but it's a brutal addition to the units firing that should be considered alongside the Plasma argument people are making for Nurgle. Doom Bolt and Breathe of Chaos are no joke either. Really the unit has a very sscary array of psyker attacks here. Breathe of Chaos in particular can nuke an entire squad on its own if you tank shock them into position or just arrive post Close-combat at the right time. I hear no one mentioning the fearsom Poisoned corrosive flamer they can have! When finished firing with a Breathe of Chaos and their bolters, i would be crying were I on the receiving end and all talk of attacking back would sound pretty hollow. ain't no one coming home for dinner tonight in that unit.
So looking at it from all those angles, I see why the Original Poster might be having success. Obviously I provided my thoughts on the blog, AGAIN, on a purely cult themed army.
Like you, I want to know more about the OP's wins and opposing armies and what he (in short form) did about them.
Veteran CSM players, I have to ask, was there ever a time when 1k sons, or any unit with MoT, was actually GOOD? I've been hearing people complaining about Tzeentch CSMs since 5th...
I have a small problem with your argumentation: It is very vague. (I have read your thread btw. )
I can't see why you choose to take specifically Thousand Sons over any other units. Which quality is so important for you, that TS are more successful than comparable infantry units?
You said, you fielded them together with Heldrakes and Oblits and the resulting list had been successful.
Now my issue is, that Heldrakes and Oblits are capable of crushing many armies on their own, so it is a bit unfair to credit TS for that while degrading Heldrake and Oblit to a "complementing unit".
My guess is, your TS were expensive scorers who took a shot here and there and went off unharmed because they were well hidden, right?
So I would think, well you can take 3x cultists as well, who would do the hiding job equally well for 1/4 of the cost. So they would be far more efficient. The points could be invested in more Oblits and Drakes, who would wreak more havoc amongst the enemy than TS do.
But if you have some valuable insights or something I completely forgot (concerning a certain task on the battlefield which makes TS necessary in particular), I would be glad if you let me know, because I am keen to learn new ideas.
Again Im not the OP, and my Blog entry you read was specifically to construct CULT armies, not all around generalist armies. Just to be clear. Someone had asked me for help on making Khorne work (and he has recently appraised me of his 5-1 record using the blog as a guiding light) and while I was at it I designed pure cults for all the different factions. It started as just helping with the one army.
Also to be clear, since intent gets lost in forums, I am suggesting that people learn from success on a TACTICS thread instead of wasting anyones time with the three headed "nuh uh" button. Its lazy and its stupid, all at the same time in my opinion. Points need to stand on their own merit.
Lastly, I should not be construed as saying "Thousand Sons or bust". I'm not. I'm just trying to explain how I see them working.
Now my blog points out a lot of what I liked about the army. So I wont repeat myself too much. Hope this is specific enough.
1. Instant Death weapon. Say what one will, this is a big deal. On its own, that represnts a utility the Plague Marines lack completely. I am seeing TripleTides with a WraithKnight in one army. Let me tell you: Instant Death can matter, cause its still a dice game. No matter the "general" performance of either unit, this particular utility is no small thing.
2. SoulBlaze isn't the second coming but many Xenos races will hate it and it can be important in a round where you're not free to dedicate any fire to that unit. Also it can tip the scale on a units ability to regroup. I'm not trying to make it sound bigger than it is, but when every unit in the army is in flames, it can be a significant amount oif damage over time. You're not just doing it to one unit. You're saturating the enemy with it the first couple rounds.
3. Area denial: Certain units just wont come out to play if they know the Thousand Sons can reach them with their bolters. Though the Thousand Sons die to bolters like all Marines, the risk the ENEMY takes of having their unit wasted is greater than any return the enemy gets for rapidfiring at times. Are YOU going to take that chance early or often? Nope. So units will stay in those rhinos and fire less often to preserve their lives, which just plays to the long game strategy of Thousand Sons WITH Heldrakes. enemies WILL dare the Plague Marines to shoot them. Also, special weapons DO get killed if you bring them close enough to rapid fire. Precision shot is really cool on the new Eldar Crimson Hunter on a 5+. The amount of sniping in general with Artillery etc... increases the chances the Plasma can be taken out in the Plague squads IF its proving to be imminent. Thousand sons care LESS if you kill guy X or Z. Just the Sorcerer pretty much, but in games where instant Death isnt as necessary, neither is his loss particularly felt. Risk/Reward there seems in the Thousand Sons favor (if only very slightly, as I acknowledge that the plasma is good while alive in those Nurgle units).
4. Tzeentch FireStorm is pretty beefy at times. Nearly as good as a Slaanesh small blast and mobile! Its randomness isn't awesome, but it's a brutal addition to the units firing that should be considered alongside the Plasma argument people are making for Nurgle. Doom Bolt and Breathe of Chaos are no joke either. Really the unit has a very sscary array of psyker attacks here. Breathe of Chaos in particular can nuke an entire squad on its own if you tank shock them into position or just arrive post Close-combat at the right time. I hear no one mentioning the fearsom Poisoned corrosive flamer they can have! When finished firing with a Breathe of Chaos and their bolters, i would be crying were I on the receiving end and all talk of attacking back would sound pretty hollow. ain't no one coming home for dinner tonight in that unit.
So looking at it from all those angles, I see why the Original Poster might be having success. Obviously I provided my thoughts on the blog, AGAIN, on a purely cult themed army.
Like you, I want to know more about the OP's wins and opposing armies and what he (in short form) did about them.
1. Instant Death is far less of a factor when you are T5. Plague Marines are only marginally less survivable against a Riptide than Thousand Sons (5+ vs. 4+) unless we're talking about the Riptide making a Smash Attack in Close Combat, in which case the Plague Marines are higher initiative and all have poisoned weapons.
2. Soul Blaze isn't even the third or fourth coming. It's a joke. It has a 50% chance of doing nothing, and that's before even rolling to see how many hits and then to wound. Any horde unit isn't going to care, and any other Xenos unit has probably been so damaged by the bolter fire that one more dead Xenos doesn't matter. Especially when the Xenos in question isn't going to be costing much.
3. And by "Certain Units" you of course mean Tactical Marines. Terminators don't care, Guardsmen don't care, Orks don't care. Blood Angels don't care, they've almost certainly got FnP. Grey Knights care, as they are also expensive and would have to rely on cover to protect themselves. Or just pile out of a Land Raider, then they don't care any more. Any enemy that would dare Plague Marines with twin plasma isn't going to fear Thousand Sons that much more. And the death of every Thousand Son is felt, Sorcerer or no, because they cost so damn much. Especially the Sorcerer, as he costs almost as much as the HQ Sorcerer but is no where near as flexible or potent out of the box.
4. Sure Firestorm can do some damage, as long as your opponent crowds his units in like Sardines. If he takes even minimal time to consider spacing, which he probably will given you've got a blast weapon, odds are it isn't going to hit many models. And then with random strength and no AP odds are it isn't going to kill many. If you get really lucky it can do some damage, sure. I don't know what codex you're reading though, as there is no Slaanesh small blast, and I'd far rather have the Slaanesh Primaris than Firestorm. Doombolt suffers in similar ways. Short range, and while it has decent Strength and AP against properly placed models it's not going to hit many. Boon of Mutation is only any good if you want to brave the vagaries of the Gift table, especially given it can't turn models into Daemon Princes. And no one talks about Breath of Chaos in the context of Thousand Sons because they can't take it. Aspiring Sorcerer's are ML1 and Breath requires 2 Warp Charge. So it's restricted to HQ Sorcerer's only, and while it's certainly the best power on the list it requires rolling on the Tzeentch table to get. Which you want to do as little as possible because compared to every other lore in the game (except maybe Runes of Fate, Runes of Fate has a lot of duds in it as well) it's rubbish.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Wait, did you just claim that Plague Marines are melee units? You take them for their double special weapon, T5 FNP and fearlessness, just like last edition when they didn't have poisoned CCWs and were still seen as vastly superior to Thousand Sons. Most of the time you don't want Plague Marines to be in close combat, because that means they're not firing their double Plasma/Melta.
The reason Plague Marines are favoured over Thousand Sons isn't because they're a melee unit, it's because double plasma with a combi-weapon is almost as effective against MEQ as Thousand Sons and much better against high T models and armour, while the T5 FNP lets you live against torrent of fire better. In summary, Plague Marines are better at shooting, better at melee and better at surviving the most common anti-infantry weapons in the game than Thousand Sons. Furthermore, the fact that you can make them scoring with Typhus or a Nurgle Lord means that you don't have to waste an HQ slot on a Sorcerer who has to roll on the Tzeentch table, which is rather awful.
This. PM aren't a melee unit, although they aren't bad in melee. They're a unit that can have 2 plasmaguns (or meltas) at 5 man, and be as survivable as a squad of ten marines for less points. They contribute meaningfully against most hard targets and can take lots of small arms fire in return.
Chrysis wrote:
4. Sure Firestorm can do some damage, as long as your opponent crowds his units in like Sardines. If he takes even minimal time to consider spacing, which he probably will given you've got a blast weapon, odds are it isn't going to hit many models. And then with random strength and no AP odds are it isn't going to kill many. If you get really lucky it can do some damage, sure. I don't know what codex you're reading though, as there is no Slaanesh small blast, and I'd far rather have the Slaanesh Primaris than Firestorm. Doombolt suffers in similar ways. Short range, and while it has decent Strength and AP against properly placed models it's not going to hit many. Boon of Mutation is only any good if you want to brave the vagaries of the Gift table, especially given it can't turn models into Daemon Princes. And no one talks about Breath of Chaos in the context of Thousand Sons because they can't take it. Aspiring Sorcerer's are ML1 and Breath requires 2 Warp Charge. So it's restricted to HQ Sorcerer's only, and while it's certainly the best power on the list it requires rolling on the Tzeentch table to get. Which you want to do as little as possible because compared to every other lore in the game (except maybe Runes of Fate, Runes of Fate has a lot of duds in it as well) it's rubbish.
Runes of Fate does have some duds (Executioner's pretty meh, and giving away StW automatically with Death Mission is just silly), but here's the big thing: The Primaris is Guide! In large part, the Primaris is what makes a psychic discipline good or bad. Its not the only part -- Tyranids just spam biomancy hoping for the good rolls and never switch, but Divination and Runes of Fate give you reliable TL, and Psychic Shriek isn't a bad power (single target Doom of Malan'tai). If the Tzeentch primaris wasn't so sucky as Firestorm, once again there might be a case to take mass sorcerers. If they could roll on Div, or if the primaris for Tzeentch was say, Ignores Cover to a unit within 12" (that would probably be broken), or something that wasn't a sub-par and unreliable heavy weapon, then this conversation would be different.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Veteran CSM players, I have to ask, was there ever a time when 1k sons, or any unit with MoT, was actually GOOD? I've been hearing people complaining about Tzeentch CSMs since 5th...
They used to be immune to S4 and under a long time ago.
It's crazy to see the arguments just be re-hashed over and over but by different people =(.
Nobody can argue that TS DON'T have shortcomings...They definitely have weaknesses and are not what they once were or "should" be according to balance/fluff. I've been playing Thousand Sons when their rules were actually GOOD (2nd/3rd edition), now their rules are NOT good...
I don't see how people can't see the obviously glaring problems with TS so they must either be bad, ignorant or trolling. It is like taking two apples and setting them up next to each other and one apple reeks of rot and looks terrible while the other one is USDA certified organic, shiny and looks good...TS are the bad apples while just about everything else are the good apples. I mean case in point, how do you justify 58 points for a single wound space marine psyker model with terrible rules/psychic powers (aspiring sorcerer) While a regular HQ sorcerer costs only 60 points and is vastly superior in EVERY way!? Yeah, that seems balanced and well thought out...
Thousand Sons are ghosts that are robots but are also magic dust.
All thousand sons are like this because coach Ahriman cast a wizard spell that made all the magical space marines that weren't magical enough into permanently benchwarming sad sacks eternally rattling their chains at the enemy.
Their chains also happen to be fully automatic rocket launchers that, through the awesome power of sorcery, are enchanted to do the damage a Bolter should do anyway.
Thousand sons are most often depicted striding forward implacably across a battlefield shooting at something just offscreen. Their helmet lenses are often glowing.
Thousand sons bear the heraldry of a snake eating its own tail, a symbol representing eternity, and also the the never ending arguments about thousand sons on Internet message boards.
Thousand sons are led by a thousand son who isn't a magical ghost robot. He reminds them of this constantly and they secretly cheer whenever he casts boon of mutation on himself and dies.
I dont THINK anyone is claiming that Thousand Sons dont have a problem. I certainly didn't say that.
What I said was they have plus's. Which is also true. I can spend all day worrying about what can't be done, but I'd fire my employees if they did that.
So here's the thing: they can and are winning in the right hands. So learn how. What I dislike is the silly assertion that you cant win tournies with them. makes me want to go shopping right the hell now and win the next tourney JUST to post the damn battle reports with a big fat title on the post that says :
Jancoran wrote: I dont THINK anyone is claiming that Thousand Sons dont have a problem. I certainly didn't say that.
What I said was they have plus's. Which is also true. I can spend all day worrying about what can't be done, but I'd fire my employees if they did that.
So here's the thing: they can and are winning in the right hands. So learn how. What I dislike is the silly assertion that you cant win tournies with them. makes me want to go shopping right the hell now and win the next tourney JUST to post the damn battle reports with a big fat title on the post that says :
"GENERALS MATTER".
Yes, if people suck you can win with them, we've mentioned this.
It doesn't make them a good unit in any factor.
People have won with Ogryn heavy armies, doesn't mean that unit is good either.
Kain wrote: I still have yet to see a reason to take any 1k sons in my typical comp list which, is usually a variation of this list adjusted to the points value, usually by shaving off units or slots when the points are too tight or adding more in Double FoC games.
Juggerlord
Typhus
Termicide (MoN)
Termicide (MoN)
Termicide (MoN)
(Termies may be traded out for Contemptor dreads or Decimator Daemon Engines)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague zombies for backfield camping
Plague zombies for backfield camping
Heldrake of nurgle
Heldrake of nurgle
Heldrake of nurgle
(Sometimes swapped out for Spawn or Bikers of Nurgle)
Obliterator of nurgle
Obliterator of nurgle
Obliterator of nurgle
(Sometimes swapped out for Predators, land raiders, or vindicators)
Allies:
CCS
Stormicide (most rarely taken)
Guard platoon with lots of heavy weapons
Guard platoon with lots of heavy weapons
Fortification of my choice: but the Aegis usually seems to be the most versatile.
Obviously in smaller games I wouldn't be able to fill as many slots as I want to, but generally my lists will be some variation of this unless I'm feeling in a daemonic mood or want to bring out the terribad Renegades and Heretics forge world list.
Between the Guard backfield lascannon spam, Oblit fire, and plasma spamming Plague marines, and the Heldrakes I think I can kill Marines plenty good.
Still waiting to see someone convince me to put in a sorcerer of Tzeentch instead of typhus and 1k sons instead of plaguemrines.
Jancoran wrote: I dont THINK anyone is claiming that Thousand Sons dont have a problem. I certainly didn't say that.
What I said was they have plus's. Which is also true. I can spend all day worrying about what can't be done, but I'd fire my employees if they did that.
So here's the thing: they can and are winning in the right hands. So learn how. What I dislike is the silly assertion that you cant win tournies with them. makes me want to go shopping right the hell now and win the next tourney JUST to post the damn battle reports with a big fat title on the post that says :
"GENERALS MATTER".
Moving the goalposts much? If you're good enough to win with Thousand Sons you'd probably win even more with Plague Marines or Noise Marines. The entire point of everyone telling you how Thousand Sons suck is to point out how there's much better units in the CSM Codex. We've not been saying it's impossible to win with TS, we've been saying how an "optimised" list with TS would inherently be worse than an optimised list with Plague Marines or Noise Marines.
This is a breakdown of thousand sons rubric marines by a veteran chaos player.
*List price, 150 for 5 models. Now to put this in perspective as a chaos player I now have access to some very cheep minions. These new minions are Chaos Cultists and cost 50 for 10 models. I can get 30 models for the price of five rubrics. If I want to hold an objective I will use the 30 cultists, not 5 marines.
If I’m not planning on using rubrics to hold objectives then I am using them to kill things. So for 150 what do we have? Well I can get 5 Chosen and 4 plasma guns for 150. So that’s 5 rubrics vs. 5 chosen with 4 plasmas. Personally I would just pay 20 more points and get a Heldrake.
Well that’s not an impressive start; for their points, they can’t hold objectives as well as 30 cultists and they can’t kill things as well as 5 chosen with 4 plasma guns (or a Heldrake). So lets up point cost, perhaps we need to spend big to get big.
10 rubrics with a banner and a rhino with a havoc launcher and soul blaze comes to 337. Let’s be honest, that’s a lot of points. Can the unit live up to its cost? 10 Chaos Space Marines fully kitted out with ccw, bolters, vets, plasma gun, Lascannon, power weapon, and rhino with dozer, havoc, blaze comes to 275. That is a difference of 62 points. Both units are semi mobile, both are effective against infantry, both are relatively survivable and both will last a while in assault. Rubrics have no heavy weapon, the csm do. Outside of their respective transports the rubrics will be moving 6” at most, the csm will be able to move a maximum of 6” plus run. In a game that is won or lost in the movement phase, mobility is the key to victory. Even a couple of extra inches can make a big difference when you are making a last dash for the relic. When your unit is 7” away from claiming or contesting an objective on the bottom of turn 5 it is very important that your unit can run that extra inch.
My point being that a kitted out csm squad will perform very similarly to the rubric squad, so why not use those beautiful models as baseline csm?
Maybe you are addicted to their invulnerable save. After all, Heldrakes are running rampant everywhere and getting a save against them makes them a lot less scary. And lets not forget all of those new elder “rending” small arms. It’s a nice feeling to have that invulnerable save no matter what is thrown your way. But then again, why would the Heldrake be going for your rubrics? I cant see using a 337 point unit to cower on an objective and rubrics are getting saves against the bale flamer so overall I would think they would be low on the hit list.
Rubrics should be killing things when they have a point cost this heavy so they should be going after contemporary targets of opportunity. Units that are going for the kill should, in general be expendable. They should also be capable of putting pressure on your opponent. 337 points is not very expendable, but the rubrics should always be able to find a reasonable target to at least put pressure on. That being said there are far better choices for much cheaper than the rubrics. They are too expensive and slow to be troops, and they are too expensive and slow to be a reliable killing unit.
*That is enough about points, lets move on two equipment and special rules.
1. no grenades: while not that bad because they are not an assault unit, you will need to assault on occasion and not having basic grenades hurts more often than not. And you will never get to experience the thrill of throwing a frag or krack grenade.
2. bolter with ap3: This is always good as long as you are shooting at anything with at least a 4+ save. But I cant help noticing that this isn’t as cool as it was last edition (we will come to the reason for that very soon). I think this should have been a storm bolter with ap3. And there should have been some form of heavy weapon to complement the lack of anti tank (A random roll on a power chart doesn’t count as far as I am concerned).
3. Slow and purposeful: This I just don’t get at all. Why didn’t they just give them relentless, Or storm bolters with ap3? Last edition this was cool because you could move and shoot at full range. Well that is old news, everyone does that now and they don’t need relentless or slow and purposeful to do it. The only benefit it grants is the ability to charge after shooting with rapid fire and heavy weapons (that they don’t have). And in a unit that isn’t designed for assault that just doesn’t make any logical sense.
*Left behind…That is how I feel. My beautiful, hardworking, game winning rubrics have been left behind by the author of this new book. I have taken this personally. I find it difficult to play an army that has been so blatantly over looked and forgotten. I put it to you that The thousand sons were the only cult troops in the book to be down graded while retaining their cost. At least the berserkers (who also did not fair to well with the update) are still usable and have fancy new ap4 weapons along with a point decrease.
I was so upset about what they did (or rather didn’t do) to my army that I quit chaos all together and reorganized my marines as vanilla space marines. With combat tactics I have turned 30 very stupid rubrics in to killing machines capable of taking on any form of adversary and coming out on top. My Thousand Sons have been reborn! We will never forgive and never forget how the gods of chaos have abandoned us! Death to the changer of the ways! First we were betrayed by the emperor, then we were betrayed by the warmaster Horus, Now the final betrayal has come and it is at the hands of Tzeentch himself. NONE SHALL STAY MY WRATH! My marines are out for blood.
