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YMMV, we aren't all playing in big pro tourneys, some of us just play the regular ones. I've found you can always find a job for them in a game, and a Tzeentch sorcerer is a great HQ so I really wouldn't call it a tax... If your planning on playing rough games maybe rethink. Otherwise Ive had great success with the Tsons and they are really cool models. Daemon allies will make them even better with prescience on your ap3 bolters, also that expensive sergeant gets a free force weapon that has more than once made back his points for me. Not saying they're the best troop in the book, but they are a very very long shot from useless. I like to run mine with dual sorcerers, 2 squads a sorc in each and just fill the field with psykers (2 pink horrors/2 heralds 2 CSM sorc and 2 Tsons sorc) makes for a fun list.

There simply isn't a compelling reason to take 1k Sons in competitive games.

Thousand Sons are an anti-MEQ unit. It's too bad, because MEQ are on life support in the tourney scene. You see them as allies to IG, mainly to get access to characters for ATSKNF (there are a handful of decent Marine/SW units worth taking as well).

The MEQ hordes of early 6th are gone. The main reason is, of course, the ubiquitous Helldrake. Supporters of 1k Sons can argue that they are 50% more durable to Drakes than normal MEQ. The problem is, they are also 50% more expensive. This is particularly important to remember, as Drakes aren't the only reason MEQ went bye-bye. The high rate of fire available to the newer Xenos codices (Crons, Eldar, Tau), as well as the inherent anti-MEQ-ness (my own term) of Daemons spells doom for Marines of all sorts. Against rate of fire, 1k Sons are just expensive Marines.

One can get almost two stock CSM for the price of a 1k Son. The 1k Sons get...an anti-MEQ bolter, a 4+, and a psyker with access to bum powers. It is also worth noting that Slow and Purposeful is awful. The anti-MEQ bolter is pointless, as MEQ aren't out in force. Common troops like Guardsmen, Kroot, Guardians, Cultists, and Horrors/Plaguebearers feel the same way about an AP 3 bolter as they do an AP 5 one. The 4+ save is decent, but the aforementioned high rate of fire from the more common tourney builds make the invulnerable save moot. The psyker is expensive and relatively worthless.

I can see why people would want 1k Sons to be useful, but they simply aren't. If you are playing in a meta that is 75%+ MEQ, AND you are super adverse to taking Helldrakes...well, I still don't really see it.

My area just happens to favor marines, contrary to this apparently not being possible, here the probabilities have collided and my Tsons pull wieght.

My local meta also has a lot of MEQ lists at present. That being said, most of them are CSM lists, with only two DA players (including myself - I just really enjoy winning with "underpowered" lists-) and one Vanilla Marine player. That being said, I really don't see many MEQ lists (other than Helldrake spam) at tournaments, unless I'm looking at IG with SW or DA allies.

I've been turning more towards Khorne-themed lists recently, but more for a change of pace rather than any feeling that my Tzeentch list can't cut it anymore.

 Jancoran wrote:

pantsonhead wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Well I'll tell you what you should do: not argue with success. If someone is Winning...actually winning...with them, then I say pay attention. I watch my opponents undrestimate and THEORIZE all the way to the losers circle, again and again, personally. And I am constantly amused by their afterblubber. "Well if this and if that". If nothing. The scoreboard never lies. If someone is beating you and doing it consistently, LEARN. If someone gets on a forum and something is working, PAY ATTENTION. Even teachers learn.

So I am inclined to hear what people say when they are having success because it's one less thing to be caught flat footed against.

That's just wisdom right there.

But this only makes sense if we have some information about who these wins are against. Terrible lists can beat other terrible lists played by terrible players. People here aren't being beaten by Thousand Sons. What we have is someone claiming to do well with Thousand Sons against unspecified opponents. Since Thousand Sons look pretty bad on paper, and many other people have some experience of them and don't find them to be that good, surely the reasonable thing here is to tentatively conclude that either the OP's success is exaggerated or he's just not playing against very tough opponents.

It's trivially easy to go find someone on the internet claiming that they crush everyone with [pick a terrible unit]. You've obviously got to have some way of determining which units are actually good.

I will preface by saying this: attacking opponent quality on the internet is a weak play. Let's not go there. Terrible lists? some may have been and some may not have been but sweeping away actual wins by claiming this MIGHT be the case isn't really fair minded either.

Here are the facts we know when we assume he's not a big fat lier (which is an even MORE unfair and unconscionable thing to assume): He's winning. He has also said that he uses big boys as blockers. He's said a few other things too.

Maybe we should have him summarize the strtategy here that he's using, summarize the lists (no we dont need the entire run down for Gawds saker) he found most daunting and then look at that objectively on its own and say "Okay what part of that strategy would i struggle with".

For example,. my Eldar Air Force is unbeaten. 9-0. It's a LOT of fun. Couple close games, mostly blowouts. I was told "Thats crazy, theyre aV10" and "thats crazy, 495 points for a Seer Council?".

They dont say any of those things any more. But they did. People look stupid in retrospect only when they totally ignore the GOOD parts about what people are saying. EVEN if you could not see yourself using the list, you might want to consider how such a list WOULD be a threat to you. Attack it from THAT angle, the angle of good faith and its a dialog.

I for one HAVE monkey stomped Thousand Sons lists, especially a Dual Lash list at a GT a few years ago. But that does not speak to the ABILITY the list had to hurt me. The results were good, but not because it COULDNT win. So the question is, if that guy knew ME as well as he does now, would he have played the same? Nope. And our next game would be closer Ill wager.

So as fun as it is to so "No because of colossus", I'd chal;lenge you to tell me what Thousand Sons player doesn't KNOW about them and Prioritizes THEM? Its not as if every "counter" is going to be alicve to do its job when the time comes. hell I could go "No because {fill in the blank}" on ANY UNIT , PERIOD. Thats not an argument.

So maybe if he would kind fo summarize all this stuff for us and tell us about the opponents and so on, in one post maybe, we could attack it from there.

The plural of anecdote is not data. He says he's winning, and he attributes it to the Thousand Sons. That's good for him. Maybe his playing area favours small groups of marines dancing in the open without cover. That would make Thousand Sons a good investment. But we don't know anything about what he's up against, and so the fact that he's winning has no meaning. So all we have left is the Op asking why people think they suck, which everyone has been more than willing to explain for him. I haven't seen anyone give a reason why they would be good that doesn't apply equally or more to any other choice or boil down to "But sometimes they work! Therefore they are not bad!"

They are expensive, they don't threaten anything other than MEQs, and they don't threaten MEQs that much more than a unit with a couple of Plasma guns would. While the unit with a couple of Plasma Guns would also threaten TEQs and Light Armour. They are excellent at withstanding units that rely on negating 3+ saves to do damage, but they fold like any other marine against units that rely on volume of fire/attacks. The only situations they excel are when you know that either your opponent will be relying on high strength (7+) AP3 or better weapons or that your opponent will be MEQs exclusively. Preferably both. Otherwise other units can do what they do cheaper and with more durability.

 Exergy wrote:

terrible lists can beat uber "optimized" competitive lists. Good dice and a bunch of units that just happen to counter a specific competitive list can take a terrible list to a crushing victory easily

Fair point. Really, "I've been using this and it's been doing well" is worth pretty much nothing even against reasonably capable opponents and assuming it's accurate.

 Jancoran wrote:

I will preface by saying this: attacking opponent quality on the internet is a weak play. Let's not go there. Terrible lists? some may have been and some may not have been but sweeping away actual wins by claiming this MIGHT be the case isn't really fair minded either.

Here are the facts we know when we assume he's not a big fat lier (which is an even MORE unfair and unconscionable thing to assume): He's winning. He has also said that he uses big boys as blockers. He's said a few other things too.

But these are possibilities you have to keep in mind when reading about things like this on the internet. That's just how it works. I'm not calling anyone a liar and I'm not assuming he's playing against bad people. But those are very real possibilities - there are in fact liars on the internet, and there are in fact people who play against weak opponents without realizing it. If you find thinking about those very real possibilities distasteful, then at least consider the point hinted at by the other person I quoted - maybe the OP has just gotten extremely lucky. Lots of people play this game and lots of people have played with Thousand Sons. Some of them will have been a long run of games where the Thousand Sons do very well.

It's on the people claiming Thousand Sons aren't pretty bad to make that case. Thus far, it hasn't been made. It's a little ridiculous to take one person claiming to do well (in an environment we know nothing about and with dice that may or may not have been fantastic) as any sort of evidence - that's just not worth taking seriously.

I um...had some difficulties understanding much of what got said, but I got the gist anyways. Lol. Man that was a THICK accent. =)

lol. His, mine or both?

Probably both

I still have yet to see a reason to take any 1k sons in my typical comp list which, is usually a variation of this list adjusted to the points value, usually by shaving off units or slots when the points are too tight or adding more in Double FoC games.

Juggerlord
Typhus

Termicide (MoN)
Termicide (MoN)
Termicide (MoN)

(Termies may be traded out for Contemptor dreads or Decimator Daemon Engines)

Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague Marines (Either melta, flamer, or plasma, always with a rhino)
Plague zombies for backfield camping
Plague zombies for backfield camping

Heldrake of nurgle
Heldrake of nurgle
Heldrake of nurgle

(Sometimes swapped out for Spawn or Bikers of Nurgle)

Obliterator of nurgle
Obliterator of nurgle
Obliterator of nurgle

(Sometimes swapped out for Predators, land raiders, or vindicators)

Allies:

CCS

Stormicide (most rarely taken)

Guard platoon with lots of heavy weapons
Guard platoon with lots of heavy weapons

Vendetta

Colossus battery/Leman Russ squadron/Manticore/Basilisk battery/Medusa battery

Fortification of my choice: but the Aegis usually seems to be the most versatile.

Obviously in smaller games I wouldn't be able to fill as many slots as I want to, but generally my lists will be some variation of this unless I'm feeling in a daemonic mood or want to bring out the terribad Renegades and Heretics forge world list.

Between the Guard backfield lascannon spam, Oblit fire, and plasma spamming Plague marines, and the Heldrakes I think I can kill Marines plenty good.

I think the main problem with 1k sons is not that they are bad.
Or that they cost too much.
Or even the slight mismatching abilities thrown around.

They just don't FIT.

Other stuff makes the same kills, and marines are not high in the problem units list.
The ability to say "I don't need no terrain" is nice, but terrain is common as it is.

If your local meta somehow works with little terrain, lots of MEQ and too much AA fire to allow helldrakes to work (though I don't see a MEQ army with heavy AA access) then they are golden.
But thats pretty much the opposite of current meta.

I always favour units that aren't played very often, because they require more finesse in playing than the most obvious units.

TS are one of them. In 5th Edition I loved Tzeentch Lists and got some surprising results with them. But now they have serious problems:

1. Challenges. Your expensive sorcerer will get killed by a standard sergeant quite easily and then the main strength of TS dies
2. Warptime doesnt exist anymore and force swords have ap3.
3. Everyone can now move and fire at full range
4. Most important: You now never assault from a rhino ever...
and another point: 5. Meta has changed

In 5th Edition TS were quite powerful against other elite units in cc with a warptime sorcerer and their 4+ inv. So they had a task that was quite useful because many guys used elite heavy cc units.

Now no one uses them. Their weakness is not cc, their weakness is shooting.

Examples:
What do you do against a ravenwing bolter banner list? Not speaking of the 4 LRC List with bolter banner, which is a nasty hard counter against TS. He gets 4 shots TL and you get 1. You wound on 5+, he wounds on 4+. He has 3+ save from Darkshroud until your Drake killed it and then still 5+, you get 3+, so he is basically 4 times as effective per model in shooting, faster, better (more flexible) in cc.
4 LRC is autolose because you don't have anything at all against those. One luck chance with oblits and then they're dead and thats gg for you.
What do you do against Coteaz Razorspam? He just lolz TL S6 shots at you and you do exactly nothing. If he has aegis defence line, he has a good chance to down the drakes and coteaz' special rule multiplies the effect.
What do you do against 180 shootaboyz + lootaz?
What do you do against 3 Dettas, 2 Manticore badass IG? Absolutely nothing.

BTW: If your anwer is Heldrake, Heldrake, Oblits, Oblits, then, yeah: Heldrakes and oblits are the answer to many things, so why not a third heldrake and more oblits and less TS?

So the problem is, everyone is now able to kill MEQ in shooting quite easily. And almost every useful unit outshoots TS either by quality or by numbers, because one S4 ap 3 shot per model just doesnt do the trick and is just too expensive.
Believe me, I have played them in the past, I have tried them now, I am an inventive player. But if you have serious success with them, your opponents don't know them well enough (either out of ignorance or inexperience). Both things need to be punished.
So keep playing them and punish your opponents, but don't expect the same results against experienced and cunning opponents with smart lists.

@ Jancoran

Success with a list is a subjective thing. Some people would find 50% of their games successful, it also doesnt take into account the "competitiveness" of opponents and their lists. I also am not quick to accept personal accounts unless I know that person and have reason to believe them. So generally, unless a person can show me results with a name I'm going to err on the side of not believing them... Call me a skeptic.

Either way, if 1k Sons work for someone, I'd never criticize them. I would however criticize the notion that they are a good or optimal unit choice. I know that I have used underpowered units and felt comfortable doing so, but I would never recommend them to other players as if they were optimal. Mileage varies by player and list, but I do think that there are obviously "better" and obviously "worse" units in every codex. 1K Sons, IMO, fall into the latter.

Success is never subjective. It happened or it didn't. Period. So I will call you a skeptic indeed.

Weakest internet sauce ever:

A. Your oponent sucks
B. Their list sucks (even though you havent SEEN EITHER) or
C. You're lying.

If thats the ONLy thing you bring to the table as an argument, then you are to be ignored. On the other hand if you have something valid to bring to the table, let THAT stand on its own merits, because if you have an actual valid point, then you dont NEED to fall back on this weak sauce.

I promise you that when I am taking home the prize money and the kudos, I am not going to give a RIP what someones theory was. Everyone at tournies has the same job: Beat whose in front of you. If its Thousand Sons that hands out the beatings then I am all ears as to what they did. Why? Well in case we forgot, this is a tactics thread.

My experience with Thousand Sons has been all positive. but then, the army is built to compliment them. I suppose any unit can look terribad in a vacuum.

I sold my army beginning of 6th although i love there fluff the most, an been doing ok in 5th and 6th but that is it.

Where do they loose:

Plaguemarines that simple and why:

- 2 special weapons is better than the sorc.
- T5 and 3+&5+fnp is much better than T4 and 3+/4++
- poison attacks against big monster and blight grenades to minimize attacks
- champ with combi and axe is much better and less expensive than sorc.
- no sweeping advance if you happen to win the combat...
- Sorc 50% chance to get a crap power...

So i did as many and ran to nurgle for a competitve army and the model i love the most model & ruleswise: Typhus.
Still looking to make something fluffy in there, but also competitive.

That is number2 Ahriman consistenly sucks altough he should be a beast, i mean common no DIVINATION, what have they been smoking at GW.

MSU is still king when running cult units and 1k sons are crap in MSU config.

@ Jancoran: If the only argument you can bring to the table is an unverifiable claim then you are to be ignored as well. There are a thousand conspiracy websites out there that make many stupid claims about almost impossible events. Personal experience is one of the most common sources of proof for UFO, Bigfoot, and Loch Ness Monster sightings. It's why personal stories and experience aren't trustworthy. Because there are people on the internet who abuse people's trust and expecting someone to validate a claim is not something absurd.

People can lie, exaggerate, remember things wrong, or just get bad information and try to tell a second hand story. We can't determine things about a person via text unless they are being rather upfront about it.

But as you said, this is a tactic thread. So would you care to share your tactical advice on how to use them and how to build a list around them?

Savageconvoy, I DID share it. I think you're joinging the party late. here is the link again:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/02/40k-chaos-space-marines-cult-of-tzeentch.html


Im not the OP, Savageconvoy and name one person here who can truly "verify": anything. Direct your silliness to the OP if you weantbut that made NO sense. Nothing NEEDS to be "validated" here nor has it often been on any thread here. This is a sharing of experience, not a flipping Government approved clinical testing facility.

Learn. Thats my message, Or don't. It get so weary of the idiotic three headed monster of "nuh uh" people use. It's just such a waste of time and such a non sequitor that there's no point in even going there with those three arguments. Ever.

Now if he told us "Yes, I played a Triple Drake list wityh Nurgle and beat them" thats good to know. And if he said "yes, i played a Noise marine list with a ton of Dakka and the outflanking Daemons thing" then thats also useful to know. But we dont need to know 100% of his opponent list to understand the tactics.

What he hasn't done, which I exhorted him to do, was to provide MORE info on some of that. because unlike some people, I dont jump to these 3 silly defenses without more info.

Abuse trust? Psh. Its tyhe internet. haven't you heard? no one lies o nthe internet. Lol. Live your live paranoid of it or get over it. your choice there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valek wrote:
I sold my army beginning of 6th although i love there fluff the most, an been doing ok in 5th and 6th but that is it.

Where do they loose:

Plaguemarines that simple and why:

- 2 special weapons is better than the sorc.
- T5 and 3+&5+fnp is much better than T4 and 3+/4++
- poison attacks against big monster and blight grenades to minimize attacks
- champ with combi and axe is much better and less expensive than sorc.
- no sweeping advance if you happen to win the combat...
- Sorc 50% chance to get a crap power...

So i did as many and ran to nurgle for a competitve army and the model i love the most model & ruleswise: Typhus.
Still looking to make something fluffy in there, but also competitive.

That is number2 Ahriman consistenly sucks altough he should be a beast, i mean common no DIVINATION, what have they been smoking at GW.

MSU is still king when running cult units and 1k sons are crap in MSU config.

See now this is experience I can get something out of. This is an argument that doesn't need the three headed "nuh uh" button.

So here's my response:

Why are we actually COMPARING a shootign unit to a melee one. While Nurgle shoots, thats nottheir function and everyone playing them or against them knows that. A list built to take advantage of Nurgles gifts is not going to be based around their shooting. It is based around the things you mentioned: melee primarily. Because they do it well.

Thousand Sons list are shooters. When I compare the shooting of Nurgle to them, well... Ya know....

Thousand Sons need blockers to be and stay effective and they need to "jump" their targets, maybe staying in the shadows of rhinos to pretect against return fire at times. More of a guerrilla feel to them. So the list morphs because of those needs. The Thousand Sons Don't worry about melee often because if they have to, the rest of the list probably broke down. left to shoot for several rounds, they will definitely make your face hurt.

Average Marine armies contain 45-50 models. There are bigger ones, but that's a commonplace number. When facing Zenos, who are more squishy as a rule, they usually have larger numbers but are far more susceptible to AP 3. If I can kill 30 Marines relatively quickly and assuredly, most of the time, that's all the scoring units the enemy has. So if you dedicate the Thousand Sons to firing on scoring units as often and always as possible, it's a good bet those will wilt to the background to save their hides rather than rushing to threaten them in melee.

So what SEEMS to be happening is that Nurgle is being favored because its so hard to kill them in melee and they are good in melee, but really, you dont even worry about that if melee never happens.

Its kind of like comparing Wyches to Dark Eldar warriors. totally different roles.

In theory if you wanted, a Thousand Sons army could incorporate Nurgle forces to protect them from getting trapped in a fight without essentially changing the list into a Nurgle list. This is no more or less valid than using a Daemon prince like the OP does or even Heldrake bases.

Wait, did you just claim that Plague Marines are melee units? You take them for their double special weapon, T5 FNP and fearlessness, just like last edition when they didn't have poisoned CCWs and were still seen as vastly superior to Thousand Sons. Most of the time you don't want Plague Marines to be in close combat, because that means they're not firing their double Plasma/Melta.

The reason Plague Marines are favoured over Thousand Sons isn't because they're a melee unit, it's because double plasma with a combi-weapon is almost as effective against MEQ as Thousand Sons and much better against high T models and armour, while the T5 FNP lets you live against torrent of fire better. In summary, Plague Marines are better at shooting, better at melee and better at surviving the most common anti-infantry weapons in the game than Thousand Sons. Furthermore, the fact that you can make them scoring with Typhus or a Nurgle Lord means that you don't have to waste an HQ slot on a Sorcerer who has to roll on the Tzeentch table, which is rather awful.

@Jancoran

I have a small problem with your argumentation: It is very vague. (I have read your thread btw. )

I can't see why you choose to take specifically Thousand Sons over any other units. Which quality is so important for you, that TS are more successful than comparable infantry units?

You said, you fielded them together with Heldrakes and Oblits and the resulting list had been successful.
Now my issue is, that Heldrakes and Oblits are capable of crushing many armies on their own, so it is a bit unfair to credit TS for that while degrading Heldrake and Oblit to a "complementing unit".

My guess is, your TS were expensive scorers who took a shot here and there and went off unharmed because they were well hidden, right?
So I would think, well you can take 3x cultists as well, who would do the hiding job equally well for 1/4 of the cost. So they would be far more efficient. The points could be invested in more Oblits and Drakes, who would wreak more havoc amongst the enemy than TS do.

But if you have some valuable insights or something I completely forgot (concerning a certain task on the battlefield which makes TS necessary in particular), I would be glad if you let me know, because I am keen to learn new ideas.

To answer the OP.
I love to take Thousand Sons! I just adore a unit that costs as much as terminators, but get killed as easily as normal space Marines, can't take special weapons and just slowly lumber across the battle field. Sign me up! Oh, and I also love how the masters of the warp, Tzeentch itself, gets the lamest powers. Makes total sense.

Wait....I think I may have had my sarcasm turned to 11. It's late at night.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
@Jancoran

I have a small problem with your argumentation: It is very vague. (I have read your thread btw. )

I can't see why you choose to take specifically Thousand Sons over any other units. Which quality is so important for you, that TS are more successful than comparable infantry units?

You said, you fielded them together with Heldrakes and Oblits and the resulting list had been successful.
Now my issue is, that Heldrakes and Oblits are capable of crushing many armies on their own, so it is a bit unfair to credit TS for that while degrading Heldrake and Oblit to a "complementing unit".

My guess is, your TS were expensive scorers who took a shot here and there and went off unharmed because they were well hidden, right?
So I would think, well you can take 3x cultists as well, who would do the hiding job equally well for 1/4 of the cost. So they would be far more efficient. The points could be invested in more Oblits and Drakes, who would wreak more havoc amongst the enemy than TS do.

But if you have some valuable insights or something I completely forgot (concerning a certain task on the battlefield which makes TS necessary in particular), I would be glad if you let me know, because I am keen to learn new ideas.

Again Im not the OP, and my Blog entry you read was specifically to construct CULT armies, not all around generalist armies. Just to be clear. Someone had asked me for help on making Khorne work (and he has recently appraised me of his 5-1 record using the blog as a guiding light) and while I was at it I designed pure cults for all the different factions. It started as just helping with the one army.

Also to be clear, since intent gets lost in forums, I am suggesting that people learn from success on a TACTICS thread instead of wasting anyones time with the three headed "nuh uh" button. Its lazy and its stupid, all at the same time in my opinion. Points need to stand on their own merit.

Lastly, I should not be construed as saying "Thousand Sons or bust". I'm not. I'm just trying to explain how I see them working.

Now my blog points out a lot of what I liked about the army. So I wont repeat myself too much. Hope this is specific enough.

1. Instant Death weapon. Say what one will, this is a big deal. On its own, that represnts a utility the Plague Marines lack completely. I am seeing TripleTides with a WraithKnight in one army. Let me tell you: Instant Death can matter, cause its still a dice game. No matter the "general" performance of either unit, this particular utility is no small thing.

2. SoulBlaze isn't the second coming but many Xenos races will hate it and it can be important in a round where you're not free to dedicate any fire to that unit. Also it can tip the scale on a units ability to regroup. I'm not trying to make it sound bigger than it is, but when every unit in the army is in flames, it can be a significant amount oif damage over time. You're not just doing it to one unit. You're saturating the enemy with it the first couple rounds.

3. Area denial: Certain units just wont come out to play if they know the Thousand Sons can reach them with their bolters. Though the Thousand Sons die to bolters like all Marines, the risk the ENEMY takes of having their unit wasted is greater than any return the enemy gets for rapidfiring at times. Are YOU going to take that chance early or often? Nope. So units will stay in those rhinos and fire less often to preserve their lives, which just plays to the long game strategy of Thousand Sons WITH Heldrakes. enemies WILL dare the Plague Marines to shoot them. Also, special weapons DO get killed if you bring them close enough to rapid fire. Precision shot is really cool on the new Eldar Crimson Hunter on a 5+. The amount of sniping in general with Artillery etc... increases the chances the Plasma can be taken out in the Plague squads IF its proving to be imminent. Thousand sons care LESS if you kill guy X or Z. Just the Sorcerer pretty much, but in games where instant Death isnt as necessary, neither is his loss particularly felt. Risk/Reward there seems in the Thousand Sons favor (if only very slightly, as I acknowledge that the plasma is good while alive in those Nurgle units).

4. Tzeentch FireStorm is pretty beefy at times. Nearly as good as a Slaanesh small blast and mobile! Its randomness isn't awesome, but it's a brutal addition to the units firing that should be considered alongside the Plasma argument people are making for Nurgle. Doom Bolt and Breathe of Chaos are no joke either. Really the unit has a very sscary array of psyker attacks here. Breathe of Chaos in particular can nuke an entire squad on its own if you tank shock them into position or just arrive post Close-combat at the right time. I hear no one mentioning the fearsom Poisoned corrosive flamer they can have! When finished firing with a Breathe of Chaos and their bolters, i would be crying were I on the receiving end and all talk of attacking back would sound pretty hollow. ain't no one coming home for dinner tonight in that unit.

So looking at it from all those angles, I see why the Original Poster might be having success. Obviously I provided my thoughts on the blog, AGAIN, on a purely cult themed army.

Like you, I want to know more about the OP's wins and opposing armies and what he (in short form) did about them.

Veteran CSM players, I have to ask, was there ever a time when 1k sons, or any unit with MoT, was actually GOOD? I've been hearing people complaining about Tzeentch CSMs since 5th...

MoT Terminators with a 4++ save is one of the few good things about the MoT.

 Jancoran wrote:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
@Jancoran

I have a small problem with your argumentation: It is very vague. (I have read your thread btw. )

I can't see why you choose to take specifically Thousand Sons over any other units. Which quality is so important for you, that TS are more successful than comparable infantry units?

You said, you fielded them together with Heldrakes and Oblits and the resulting list had been successful.
Now my issue is, that Heldrakes and Oblits are capable of crushing many armies on their own, so it is a bit unfair to credit TS for that while degrading Heldrake and Oblit to a "complementing unit".

My guess is, your TS were expensive scorers who took a shot here and there and went off unharmed because they were well hidden, right?
So I would think, well you can take 3x cultists as well, who would do the hiding job equally well for 1/4 of the cost. So they would be far more efficient. The points could be invested in more Oblits and Drakes, who would wreak more havoc amongst the enemy than TS do.

But if you have some valuable insights or something I completely forgot (concerning a certain task on the battlefield which makes TS necessary in particular), I would be glad if you let me know, because I am keen to learn new ideas.

Again Im not the OP, and my Blog entry you read was specifically to construct CULT armies, not all around generalist armies. Just to be clear. Someone had asked me for help on making Khorne work (and he has recently appraised me of his 5-1 record using the blog as a guiding light) and while I was at it I designed pure cults for all the different factions. It started as just helping with the one army.

Also to be clear, since intent gets lost in forums, I am suggesting that people learn from success on a TACTICS thread instead of wasting anyones time with the three headed "nuh uh" button. Its lazy and its stupid, all at the same time in my opinion. Points need to stand on their own merit.

Lastly, I should not be construed as saying "Thousand Sons or bust". I'm not. I'm just trying to explain how I see them working.

Now my blog points out a lot of what I liked about the army. So I wont repeat myself too much. Hope this is specific enough.

1. Instant Death weapon. Say what one will, this is a big deal. On its own, that represnts a utility the Plague Marines lack completely. I am seeing TripleTides with a WraithKnight in one army. Let me tell you: Instant Death can matter, cause its still a dice game. No matter the "general" performance of either unit, this particular utility is no small thing.

2. SoulBlaze isn't the second coming but many Xenos races will hate it and it can be important in a round where you're not free to dedicate any fire to that unit. Also it can tip the scale on a units ability to regroup. I'm not trying to make it sound bigger than it is, but when every unit in the army is in flames, it can be a significant amount oif damage over time. You're not just doing it to one unit. You're saturating the enemy with it the first couple rounds.

3. Area denial: Certain units just wont come out to play if they know the Thousand Sons can reach them with their bolters. Though the Thousand Sons die to bolters like all Marines, the risk the ENEMY takes of having their unit wasted is greater than any return the enemy gets for rapidfiring at times. Are YOU going to take that chance early or often? Nope. So units will stay in those rhinos and fire less often to preserve their lives, which just plays to the long game strategy of Thousand Sons WITH Heldrakes. enemies WILL dare the Plague Marines to shoot them. Also, special weapons DO get killed if you bring them close enough to rapid fire. Precision shot is really cool on the new Eldar Crimson Hunter on a 5+. The amount of sniping in general with Artillery etc... increases the chances the Plasma can be taken out in the Plague squads IF its proving to be imminent. Thousand sons care LESS if you kill guy X or Z. Just the Sorcerer pretty much, but in games where instant Death isnt as necessary, neither is his loss particularly felt. Risk/Reward there seems in the Thousand Sons favor (if only very slightly, as I acknowledge that the plasma is good while alive in those Nurgle units).

4. Tzeentch FireStorm is pretty beefy at times. Nearly as good as a Slaanesh small blast and mobile! Its randomness isn't awesome, but it's a brutal addition to the units firing that should be considered alongside the Plasma argument people are making for Nurgle. Doom Bolt and Breathe of Chaos are no joke either. Really the unit has a very sscary array of psyker attacks here. Breathe of Chaos in particular can nuke an entire squad on its own if you tank shock them into position or just arrive post Close-combat at the right time. I hear no one mentioning the fearsom Poisoned corrosive flamer they can have! When finished firing with a Breathe of Chaos and their bolters, i would be crying were I on the receiving end and all talk of attacking back would sound pretty hollow. ain't no one coming home for dinner tonight in that unit.

So looking at it from all those angles, I see why the Original Poster might be having success. Obviously I provided my thoughts on the blog, AGAIN, on a purely cult themed army.

Like you, I want to know more about the OP's wins and opposing armies and what he (in short form) did about them.

1. Instant Death is far less of a factor when you are T5. Plague Marines are only marginally less survivable against a Riptide than Thousand Sons (5+ vs. 4+) unless we're talking about the Riptide making a Smash Attack in Close Combat, in which case the Plague Marines are higher initiative and all have poisoned weapons.

2. Soul Blaze isn't even the third or fourth coming. It's a joke. It has a 50% chance of doing nothing, and that's before even rolling to see how many hits and then to wound. Any horde unit isn't going to care, and any other Xenos unit has probably been so damaged by the bolter fire that one more dead Xenos doesn't matter. Especially when the Xenos in question isn't going to be costing much.

3. And by "Certain Units" you of course mean Tactical Marines. Terminators don't care, Guardsmen don't care, Orks don't care. Blood Angels don't care, they've almost certainly got FnP. Grey Knights care, as they are also expensive and would have to rely on cover to protect themselves. Or just pile out of a Land Raider, then they don't care any more. Any enemy that would dare Plague Marines with twin plasma isn't going to fear Thousand Sons that much more. And the death of every Thousand Son is felt, Sorcerer or no, because they cost so damn much. Especially the Sorcerer, as he costs almost as much as the HQ Sorcerer but is no where near as flexible or potent out of the box.

4. Sure Firestorm can do some damage, as long as your opponent crowds his units in like Sardines. If he takes even minimal time to consider spacing, which he probably will given you've got a blast weapon, odds are it isn't going to hit many models. And then with random strength and no AP odds are it isn't going to kill many. If you get really lucky it can do some damage, sure. I don't know what codex you're reading though, as there is no Slaanesh small blast, and I'd far rather have the Slaanesh Primaris than Firestorm. Doombolt suffers in similar ways. Short range, and while it has decent Strength and AP against properly placed models it's not going to hit many. Boon of Mutation is only any good if you want to brave the vagaries of the Gift table, especially given it can't turn models into Daemon Princes. And no one talks about Breath of Chaos in the context of Thousand Sons because they can't take it. Aspiring Sorcerer's are ML1 and Breath requires 2 Warp Charge. So it's restricted to HQ Sorcerer's only, and while it's certainly the best power on the list it requires rolling on the Tzeentch table to get. Which you want to do as little as possible because compared to every other lore in the game (except maybe Runes of Fate, Runes of Fate has a lot of duds in it as well) it's rubbish.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Wait, did you just claim that Plague Marines are melee units? You take them for their double special weapon, T5 FNP and fearlessness, just like last edition when they didn't have poisoned CCWs and were still seen as vastly superior to Thousand Sons. Most of the time you don't want Plague Marines to be in close combat, because that means they're not firing their double Plasma/Melta.

The reason Plague Marines are favoured over Thousand Sons isn't because they're a melee unit, it's because double plasma with a combi-weapon is almost as effective against MEQ as Thousand Sons and much better against high T models and armour, while the T5 FNP lets you live against torrent of fire better. In summary, Plague Marines are better at shooting, better at melee and better at surviving the most common anti-infantry weapons in the game than Thousand Sons. Furthermore, the fact that you can make them scoring with Typhus or a Nurgle Lord means that you don't have to waste an HQ slot on a Sorcerer who has to roll on the Tzeentch table, which is rather awful.

This. PM aren't a melee unit, although they aren't bad in melee. They're a unit that can have 2 plasmaguns (or meltas) at 5 man, and be as survivable as a squad of ten marines for less points. They contribute meaningfully against most hard targets and can take lots of small arms fire in return.

Chrysis wrote:

4. Sure Firestorm can do some damage, as long as your opponent crowds his units in like Sardines. If he takes even minimal time to consider spacing, which he probably will given you've got a blast weapon, odds are it isn't going to hit many models. And then with random strength and no AP odds are it isn't going to kill many. If you get really lucky it can do some damage, sure. I don't know what codex you're reading though, as there is no Slaanesh small blast, and I'd far rather have the Slaanesh Primaris than Firestorm. Doombolt suffers in similar ways. Short range, and while it has decent Strength and AP against properly placed models it's not going to hit many. Boon of Mutation is only any good if you want to brave the vagaries of the Gift table, especially given it can't turn models into Daemon Princes. And no one talks about Breath of Chaos in the context of Thousand Sons because they can't take it. Aspiring Sorcerer's are ML1 and Breath requires 2 Warp Charge. So it's restricted to HQ Sorcerer's only, and while it's certainly the best power on the list it requires rolling on the Tzeentch table to get. Which you want to do as little as possible because compared to every other lore in the game (except maybe Runes of Fate, Runes of Fate has a lot of duds in it as well) it's rubbish.

Runes of Fate does have some duds (Executioner's pretty meh, and giving away StW automatically with Death Mission is just silly), but here's the big thing: The Primaris is Guide! In large part, the Primaris is what makes a psychic discipline good or bad. Its not the only part -- Tyranids just spam biomancy hoping for the good rolls and never switch, but Divination and Runes of Fate give you reliable TL, and Psychic Shriek isn't a bad power (single target Doom of Malan'tai). If the Tzeentch primaris wasn't so sucky as Firestorm, once again there might be a case to take mass sorcerers. If they could roll on Div, or if the primaris for Tzeentch was say, Ignores Cover to a unit within 12" (that would probably be broken), or something that wasn't a sub-par and unreliable heavy weapon, then this conversation would be different.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Veteran CSM players, I have to ask, was there ever a time when 1k sons, or any unit with MoT, was actually GOOD? I've been hearing people complaining about Tzeentch CSMs since 5th...

They used to be immune to S4 and under a long time ago.

Then they lost that, but had 2 wounds each.

Then they had the 4++.

Honestly they should return to the previous two.

It's crazy to see the arguments just be re-hashed over and over but by different people =(.

Nobody can argue that TS DON'T have shortcomings...They definitely have weaknesses and are not what they once were or "should" be according to balance/fluff. I've been playing Thousand Sons when their rules were actually GOOD (2nd/3rd edition), now their rules are NOT good...

Here is my blog entry about TS and and overview/suggestions for making them viable:
http://yriel.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-change-of-pace-csm-codex-at-glance.html

Here is some review of making TS/CSM work with Demon Allies:

Part1:
http://yriel.blogspot.com/2013/03/design-dilema-part-1-making-army-list.html

Part2:
http://yriel.blogspot.com/2013/05/design-dilema-part-2-making-army-list.html


I don't see how people can't see the obviously glaring problems with TS so they must either be bad, ignorant or trolling. It is like taking two apples and setting them up next to each other and one apple reeks of rot and looks terrible while the other one is USDA certified organic, shiny and looks good...TS are the bad apples while just about everything else are the good apples. I mean case in point, how do you justify 58 points for a single wound space marine psyker model with terrible rules/psychic powers (aspiring sorcerer) While a regular HQ sorcerer costs only 60 points and is vastly superior in EVERY way!? Yeah, that seems balanced and well thought out...

Thousand Sons are ghosts that are robots but are also magic dust.
All thousand sons are like this because coach Ahriman cast a wizard spell that made all the magical space marines that weren't magical enough into permanently benchwarming sad sacks eternally rattling their chains at the enemy.
Their chains also happen to be fully automatic rocket launchers that, through the awesome power of sorcery, are enchanted to do the damage a Bolter should do anyway.
Thousand sons are most often depicted striding forward implacably across a battlefield shooting at something just offscreen. Their helmet lenses are often glowing.
Thousand sons bear the heraldry of a snake eating its own tail, a symbol representing eternity, and also the the never ending arguments about thousand sons on Internet message boards.
Thousand sons are led by a thousand son who isn't a magical ghost robot. He reminds them of this constantly and they secretly cheer whenever he casts boon of mutation on himself and dies.

I dont THINK anyone is claiming that Thousand Sons dont have a problem. I certainly didn't say that.

What I said was they have plus's. Which is also true. I can spend all day worrying about what can't be done, but I'd fire my employees if they did that.

So here's the thing: they can and are winning in the right hands. So learn how. What I dislike is the silly assertion that you cant win tournies with them. makes me want to go shopping right the hell now and win the next tourney JUST to post the damn battle reports with a big fat title on the post that says :

"GENERALS MATTER".

 Jancoran wrote:
I dont THINK anyone is claiming that Thousand Sons dont have a problem. I certainly didn't say that.

What I said was they have plus's. Which is also true. I can spend all day worrying about what can't be done, but I'd fire my employees if they did that.

So here's the thing: they can and are winning in the right hands. So learn how. What I dislike is the silly assertion that you cant win tournies with them. makes me want to go shopping right the hell now and win the next tourney JUST to post the damn battle reports with a big fat title on the post that says :

"GENERALS MATTER".

Yes, if people suck you can win with them, we've mentioned this.

It doesn't make them a good unit in any factor.

People have won with Ogryn heavy armies, doesn't mean that unit is good either.

Classic.