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At 18" they will kill 4 tsons. At 13-24" those Tsons will kill 2.22 ork boyz as the boyz will certainly have cover. At 12" or less, they will kill nearly 5 orkboyz, but they will also be in charge range. You know how much orkz dont care about losing 5 models? You know how much expensive 23+tax point elite tson infantry care about losing 4 models?
Or a tactical squad. 265 points buys you 20 CSM or 18 DA tactical marines. At 13-24" they will kill over 2 tsons. At 13-24" the tsons will again kill 3 marines out of cover but again 2 in cover. 2 marines is 10% of the tac marine unit. 2 Tsons is 20% and things go down from there.

You are 100% correct in this post. But, as I said earlier, (repeating things seems a constant with you people) you're looking at Ksons in a vacuum. You have to consider the rest of the CSM options. Ksons are not going to go after ork boyz. And no one (in a competitive arena) takes squads of 20 marines. You cannot keep ignoring the things I've already said when trying to make counter arguments.

And why not just buy plasma plague marines?

setual wrote:


Haven't been tabled in a tournament yet, and yes I've faced every Necrom list you can imagine and countless Tau Lists (no one seriously plays Guard in tournies around me, but that could be a meta thing). You made an attempt, but 1/10 troll (cuz I replied).

Get some experience, son

I would bet you would get tabled if you decided to bring 1K sons to a tournament.

Not really moving the goalpost, you've just exposed that players around you don't know how to make lists. That's fine, they probably do ok, but one unit of thousand sons in an army can be a huge benefit if used right. I never once said they were my only troop choice, in fact i flat out stated I used allies so they could literally not be the only troop choice if I wanted them too.....how f***ing casual are you, newb?

Players around me don't know how to make lists? Let's look at the recent lists you've made.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/538656.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/535153.page

Wow, Terminators in 6th? And I'm the casual? Get wrecked. Using Tzeentch sorcerers? Man your butt must be getting reamed on a daily basis, no wonder you're so angry all the time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, Noise Marines are not tournie calibre troops either....good god friend, go to sleep, this is not a discussion for you....

Do you know what a strawman is? I never said that they were tournament calibre. I said that you'd be better off with all Noise Marines as troops rather than with all 1k sons as troops. I'd say learn what context is but I doubt your feeble mind would be able to understand it.

Edited

setual wrote:

I brought them, and didn't, so......

Exceptions don't prove the rule, buddy boy. :3

Bring up casual lists I've, I guess that's an interesting way to detract attention from the points I've made in this actual thread....

That's funny, because it says "1k Competitive Chaos Space Marines" for one of your lists. Then again I guess you can't read (and you certainly don't get reading comprehension), because...

Thought you said you were leaving? As previously stated, not looking for the opinion of casual players....

I never said I was leaving, that was someone else.

Yes, yes call the guy who's played since 2e a newb, it will certainly enhance your credibility.

But short of surviving a vindicator with a bad attitude in the open what do 1k sons do better than plasma plagues?

You are 100% correct in this post. But, as I said earlier, (repeating things seems a constant with you people) you're looking at Ksons in a vacuum. You have to consider the rest of the CSM options. Ksons are not going to go after ork boyz. And no one (in a competitive arena) takes squads of 20 marines. You cannot keep ignoring the things I've already said when trying to make counter arguments.

I came back because I found this funny.

Here's the thing, outside of the Vacuum, Thousand Sons would be replaced by anything else and still you'd be better off using that synergy with anything else.

Also being hypocritical, seeing as you before was using Battle Cannons on Tsons as a benefit to them.

Your counter-arguments are weak, lacking, and make you look like you've never actually played.

My takeaway from this thread is that Thousand Sons are fine as long as you have other units which can handle the things they can't. Which looks perfectly fine until you realise that the "things they can't handle" is everything except power armour standing around out in the open within 18" of the Sons. And even then normal bolters + double plasma can do the job almost as well while costing significantly less and being capable of handling a variety of targets.

I've been playing TSons since 3rd and have seen them changed in so many different ways from being immune to S4 weapons to having 2 wounds to now simply being AP3 and 4++...Thousand Sons have definitely become LESS survivable from each incarnation and their latest one is just a lazy copy+paste with changes to make them worse IMO.

I get that the OP is all about TSons and seemingly won't acknowledge the blatant shortcomings and weaknesses of Thousand Sons. But anyway, as a TSons fanboy myself, I'll contribute my 2 cents as well.

So with all of that said I usually run at least 2 units of TSons in my army and they are fun to have but they seldom are the unit to win me games..They are just so gimped. My games generally have my TSons go "not the face!" while my Helldrakes/Obliterators and demon allies do the heavy lifting...

1.) So yes, they have a 4++ and AP3 but that is nothing fancy because the things typically shooting at them will force multiple armor saves so the 4++ doesn't save them and there is usually cover so the 4++ isn't really an added bonus. Sure it helps in CC but if they are in CC they are not being useful.

2.) The sorcerer costs as much as the HQ sorcerer, has worse stats, no worthwhile upgrades, has to issue a challenge, only has access to Tzeench powers and only 1 of those powers is worthwhile and not guaranteed....GW really SHOULD have done more/different things for TS to make them more viable...AS it stands, TSons are for funsies more than anything.


To really make TSons worthwhile, the sorcerer should have had (1) access to sorcerer upgrades, including mastery upgrades; (2) access to Divination/Telepathy; (3) not have to take a Tzeench power (4) not have the Tzeench powers be utter trash.

But I digress, you are welcome to believe TSons do not warrant ANY hate at all but really, they do. There are many things that are wrong with them that greatly frustrate people wanting to use them.

I don't find them to really be bad at all. They are just expensive and they are competing for slots with better options.

 Gandohar wrote:
I don't find them to really be bad at all. They are just expensive and they are competing for slots with better options.

So basically, you are saying "I don't find them to be bad.." but then give reasons as to why they are bad.

The bottom line is that they are sub-optimal from an internal balance perspective and horrible from an external balance perspective when you consider the general meta and armies winning/playing in tournaments.

I don't find them to be bad.

I find them to be awful.

Which is disappointing given all the effort I put into making a full, light up, Thousand Sons army.

setual wrote:


Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?

...

Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.

Single Land Raiders aren't seen in competitive play, that's somewhat true. Land Raider skew lists taking three of them are seen, as a meta-busting list that's becoming more meta by the day. People are doing Necron AV13 wall more often now too.

I've just played a game against a RW list that runs the bolter banner. It puts out an enormous amount of fire, as relentless bikes get to always use the four-shot part of the Salvo rule. They have the maneuverability to get where they need to, and generate an enormous small arms alpha strike. The list is very hard to defeat unless you have AP3 Ignores Cover...like a heldrake does.

Azrael, while not quite as nasty as a Rune Priest in a blob (Fearless instead of ATSKNF, no psychic powers), is still pretty good. Giving 4++ to a 40-50 man guard blob isn't bad, and if Azrael picks the FnP warlord trait the whole blob gets to sit on a middle objective with a 4++ and 5+++.

I think the meta is a lot more open than you seem to think (going by your 'casual' labeling) it is. I also think that, even with that increased openness, Thousand Sons just don't have the tools to do things that other units could be doing better.

Also, yes I know that SnP moves you 6", I've played 6th Edition Obliterators enough to really enjoy the decreased nerf from SnP. I'm saying that if your opponent can't prevent you from lining up multiple low AV vehicles within 18" of a single model that can only move 6" in a turn, he's doin' it wrong.

He did convince me to use FOs in my dark harvest list, I'll subscribe to this thread for the lulz it will soon bring.

FOs in Dark Harvest aren't bad -- it's a somewhat similar situation with TSons. They need a few buffs in important areas, and then they'll at least be a viable option.

And why not just buy plasma plague marines?

Yeah, that's one of the other options. Plague marines will last a lot longer than 1kSons, and will also do a reasonable amount of damage if they have plasmaguns.

I've been playing TSons since 3rd and have seen them changed in so many different ways from being immune to S4 weapons to having 2 wounds to now simply being AP3 and 4++...Thousand Sons have definitely become LESS survivable from each incarnation and their latest one is just a lazy copy+paste with changes to make them worse IMO.

....

To really make TSons worthwhile, the sorcerer should have had (1) access to sorcerer upgrades, including mastery upgrades; (2) access to Divination/Telepathy; (3) not have to take a Tzeench power (4) not have the Tzeench powers be utter trash.

If TSons were immune to S4 or less, or had 2 wounds, they'd be a lot more interesting than they are right now. If the Sorcerer had any of those options, they'd also be a lot more interesting. Probably the most reasonable of those options would be #1 or #4. It seems that GW didn't want to give CSM in-codex access to the Divination Tree, for whatever reason, and they like forcing you to take the God-specific Powers. If the sorcerer were Lvl2 and had access to Telepathy, then you could at least get the good Telepathy powers, and if the Tzeentch tree wasn't full of witchfires and a useless blessing, the sorcerer might actually have been worth it.

I love my Thousand Sons army but they realy are only played if I want to loose or if we are playing a themed game. The points to have them in your army just is not worth it. Point for point the things that I can kill with my guys is just not worth it. They die just as easily as any of the other power armored guys and they do not bring anything to the table. The only time I consider them is as a small back field holder but even that is just because I like the Thousand Sons. For the price any other troop choice would be better, for that matter I cannot think of a worse elite choice either. It realy makes me sad.

 Crawdadr wrote:
I love my Thousand Sons army but they realy are only played if I want to loose or if we are playing a themed game. The points to have them in your army just is not worth it. Point for point the things that I can kill with my guys is just not worth it. They die just as easily as any of the other power armored guys and they do not bring anything to the table. The only time I consider them is as a small back field holder but even that is just because I like the Thousand Sons. For the price any other troop choice would be better, for that matter I cannot think of a worse elite choice either. It realy makes me sad.

Mutilators might be a worse Elite choice, but it's pretty close either way.

ITT: When Worlds Collide (dakka v. /tg)

 eohall wrote:
ITT: When Worlds Collide (dakka v. /tg)

No, Dakka and /tg/ are pretty unanimous on 1k Sons being terrible.

 Kain wrote:

 eohall wrote:
ITT: When Worlds Collide (dakka v. /tg)

No, Dakka and /tg/ are pretty unanimous on 1k Sons being terrible.

No, like OP is obviously out of his element, is what I was remarking on.

 eohall wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 eohall wrote:
ITT: When Worlds Collide (dakka v. /tg)

No, Dakka and /tg/ are pretty unanimous on 1k Sons being terrible.

No, like OP is obviously out of his element, is what I was remarking on.

Given that he's already left I think it's safe to assume that this was a troll thread.

I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.

150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.

 LeadLegion wrote:
I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.

150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.

Why would you stick them in ruins when they already have a 4++ invulnerable save?

 Kain wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.

150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.

Why would you stick them in ruins when they already have a 4++ invulnerable save?

I assumed he was joking.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
I love them as well. I take the basic 5 man squad in my Tzeentch list and stick them in ruins next to the objective. Most of the time, they get completely ignored (too many other threats on the table) and when they aren't ignored, they can weather a surprising amount of fire. Especially in the late game, which is usually when they start to attract attention from my opponents (who are usually tied up trying to deal with the deep-strikers, bikers and DP's rampaging around in their deployment zone until that point.

150 points for a reasonably tough unit that reliably holds an objective is good enough for me. Especially against MEQ armies, who don't want to get too close because many players greatly overestimate what the unit can actually achieve in the shooting phase.

Why would you stick them in ruins when they already have a 4++ invulnerable save?

I assumed he was joking.

Well the only way they might do some damage in an assault is if something without grenades charges them. So being in cover is marginally better than being in the open.

A lack of imagination is rampant on the internet so dont expect anyone to especially endorse the unusual or not so often tried.

I did an article on this:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/02/40k-chaos-space-marines-cult-of-tzeentch.html

Some of the concerns over being tied up are entirely valid. Thats where most people switch off and look for some other toys to play with. But if you defend well against this eventuality, such as the way Sisters of Battle Are also often played, it's not the "huge problem" that it sounds like on the internet. Its just a problem WITH a solution.

In any event, read it and if you get something out of it, yahoo. But I see no reason why one should especially villify them. Just takes a little work to figure out how they CAN operate successfully.

 Jancoran wrote:
A lack of imagination is rampant on the internet so dont expect anyone to especially endorse the unusual or not so often tried.

It's not so much as us lacking imagination, it's more of the Thousand Sons being pretty terrible.

I did an article on this:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/02/40k-chaos-space-marines-cult-of-tzeentch.html

In any event, read it and if you get something out of it, yahoo. But I see no reason why one should especially villify them. Just takes a little work to figure out how they CAN operate successfully.

That list you posted in your blog isn't really doing you any favors. In a 2000 point list you have TWO heldrakes (speaking of no imagination...), and 36 models who are going to die just as easily as Marines to most armies, who will focus their anti-tank on the predators and obliterators.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

That list you posted in your blog isn't really doing you any favors. In a 2000 point list you have TWO heldrakes (speaking of no imagination...), and 36 models who are going to die just as easily as Marines to most armies, who will focus their anti-tank on the predators and obliterators.

And yet...they dont.

So.

To expensive, can't overwatch, and they die just like a regular marine and can't hold their item in combat. Plague marines are strictly Better

Dalymiddleboro: even if you were right, and for the sake of argument lets say you are: He doesn't need them to be better to win. He just needs them to win. As long as they do, you can be right about Nurgle being "better" all day long. Couldn't matter less.

 Jancoran wrote:
In any event, read it and if you get something out of it, yahoo. But I see no reason why one should especially villify them. Just takes a little work to figure out how they CAN operate successfully.

I got a laugh out of it, but I don't think that's what you had in mind.

"Inferno Bolts are AP 3 and that makes each and every Tzeentch Warrior quite literally the most durable equal of any normal shooting infantry unit in the game!"
What? They're only the most durable if the only thing that's getting shot at them is Ap3 or better weapons. So if your opponent is also Thousand Sons. They die to flashlights, ork choppas, bolt guns, pulse rifles, etc, etc, just as easily as a bog standard marine. Plague Marines are far, far, more durable than Thousand Sons.

"They are slow and purposeful, So they cannot Overwatch."
This is a huge negative. The only thing they are capable of is shooting, and this is one less chance they get to shoot than any other unit. And it's not like they will do much damage in the combat itself.

"In fact it is somewhat helpful in the case of Tzeentch, as it really only comes up when the enemy is losing combat because they cant sweeping advance,.."
How do they win combats with only one attack each? Especially when they can't overwatch if they're getting charged. If it's because they boltgun'd a unit and then charged it, then not being able to sweep is strictly worse than being able to, because either way you end up standing around in the open during your opponent's shooting phase.

"So when a charge bounces off them, it will never end well for a Space marine army!"
Charges don't "bounce" off Thousand Sons, they just slow down temporarily. It might take another turn or two to kill them all if you were relying on negating 3+ to win the combat, but you're still going to win it eventually.

"Icons of Flame imbue the members of the unit with Soulblaze. ... This makes them POWERFUL against hordes as well and allows the unit to provide both functions."
HAHAHAHA. Yes, getting an extra Storm Bolter worth of hits 50% of the time you wound a unit is absolutely the bane of hordes. Killing a whole extra Ork every other time you wound the 30 man unit makes a huge difference. It'd be a nice bonus if it was free, but it's not so it's strictly a trap option.

18 Tzeentch Bolter shots cause 6 Unsaved MEQ wounds. I'm curious why you think that not important? You think perhaps that the 4 remaining will have cause to forge forth for a second round, MAYBE get the charge and win against the unit and its Force Weapon wielding Sorcerer? Okay. Maybe but...

And how bout 36 Bolter shots? Do the math for me. How many MEQ's survived that? So really...

Not getting Overwatch is a bummer. I didn't say otherwise. Why are you accentuating this? The point is that the FEW that remain may well lose against the Tzeentch soldiers and if they do and run, the Tzeentch soldiers will then mow them down on their turn. And they Shall Know No Fear will not work against them. Guess what 70% of your opponents are playing?

You're splitting hairs about how LONG it takes them to beat a remnant squad.

Icons of Flame add damage output. This is good. Are all the armies you face without number? An extra couple wounds adds up over time. But if you don't LIKE the option... Don't take it. I'm fine with that.