Switch Theme:

Why all the 1k Sons hate??  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Everywhere on the internet people hate on the Thousand Sons, but I've been running them in 1500 point games and they have consistently been the MVPs. AP 3 and effective 30 inch range means a unit of ten takes 9 shots (sorcerer generally casts or pistol out of range), hits with six and wounds with three (agains MEQ), meaning even with a cover save most units are losing two men per shooting phase. This sounds underwhelming, but two turns of shooting basically eliminates the threat of a heavy weapons team or can force a panic check against the unit manning the ADL so my Heldrakes are unthreatened. Also, if your enemy decides to focus fire on them your fast CC units are free to charge head first at the enemy. Additionally, 4++ means staying in cover is irrelevant; I've often marched them right down the center line and hoped the enemy focuses on them. So why does everyone advise against them? Is there a meta I haven't encountered yet? Or are people just put off by how expensive they are?
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

They exist in the same slots as Plague Marines and if they get assaulted, they're going to be stuck doing nothing all game long because they are absolutely terrible in assault.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

Major drawbacks are the cost of the squad leader and the fact that the current meta supports high volume high S attacks that ignore the 4++.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Toronto

What sort of meta do you play in that ignores 4++ invulnerable saves??

   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

All Tsons have hatred as per the fluff they are all Veterans of the Long War.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
setual wrote:
Everywhere on the internet people hate on the Thousand Sons, but I've been running them in 1500 point games and they have consistently been the MVPs. AP 3 and effective 30 inch range means a unit of ten takes 9 shots (sorcerer generally casts or pistol out of range), hits with six and wounds with three (agains MEQ), meaning even with a cover save most units are losing two men per shooting phase. This sounds underwhelming, but two turns of shooting basically eliminates the threat of a heavy weapons team or can force a panic check against the unit manning the ADL so my Heldrakes are unthreatened. Also, if your enemy decides to focus fire on them your fast CC units are free to charge head first at the enemy. Additionally, 4++ means staying in cover is irrelevant; I've often marched them right down the center line and hoped the enemy focuses on them. So why does everyone advise against them? Is there a meta I haven't encountered yet? Or are people just put off by how expensive they are?


YMMV
Being able to kill Meq in droves is nice, but they cost an army and a leg.

Lots of units kill them by ignoring their 4++(just make them fail their 3+ save in droves)
When firing at units in cover, they are much less effective.
When firing against Teq or Geq they are not better than regular CSM.
Having to pay an armload for the aspiring sorc is a pain.
Taking a Tzeench Sorc is an expensive tax to make them troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 McGibs wrote:
What sort of meta do you play in that ignores 4++ invulnerable saves??


The one that relies on weight of fire. Dakka doesnt care about your 4++ as it is under your 3+ save and is never seen. A squad of lottas will kill 3 Tsons behind an ADL in a shooting phase the same way it kills 3 Battle Sisters in the open.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 20:23:46


Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




@Kain good point, but with all the fast CC options CSM have (especially with Daemon allies) there should always be something around to help them out if needed

@minigun the squad leader also has a 50% chance to get a s8 ap1 beam. and, as I stated, all those high s attacks at them means theyre not going toward your Heldrakes

Looking at them in a vacuum ya, they look way too expensive. But considering the way CSM work, is having a 4++ unit with ap3 bolters seriously a liability? Worried about them in combat, take a Bloodthirster ally (which I do) or a DP, they'll survive long enough for support to arrive (always have for me). Worried about lots of high s shots at them? Let them come, less shots at your Heldrake (or two, if you're competitive), which will roast that Devastator squad or V-strike those War Walkers to death once it comes in anyway.

I think you both made valid points in theory, but in practice neither of those points have been a negative to me. They either tarpit something until CC support comes to help or they soak up all the high s fire that could be going towards whatever armor/MCs you brought.
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





I love them

Im with you on this, I don't understand why everyone hates them

Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k
The Shadewatch - 3k
Cadmus Outriders - 4k
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k  
   
Made in br
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






They are basically too expensive, can't overwatch, the sorcerer is ludicrously pricey and is stuck with horrible Tzeentch powers...and what they do is already covered by a better unit (the Helldrake).

AP3 bolters sound great, but any marine unit can just go to ground in cover to get a 3+ again, and good luck assaulting them to remove the unit with rubrics. A Helldrake will likely clear the same squad in one breath...for less points. Their 4++ is only going to be a factor if you face lots of Tau with plasma rifles (or other thousand Sons); everything else can just pile on regular S4-6 fire and wait for you to fail the basic 3++ save.

In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.

In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Sephyr wrote:

AP3 bolters sound great, but any marine unit can just go to ground in cover to get a 3+ again, and good luck assaulting them to remove the unit with rubrics.


Pretty sure majority cover is 5+, which means GtG gives 4+. Even if I'm wrong, GtG means they only shoot snap shots and I've already said a smart player will target small units with heavy fire, so if they're only snap shotting then I was successful whether they all survive or not. And why would any intelligent person think I was trying to get into combat with Ksons??

Your other points have already been stated, and I've already given counter arguments which you've ignored.....but thanks for the reply?
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 IHateNids wrote:
I love them

Im with you on this, I don't understand why everyone hates them


Because they are more expensive marines without an increase in effectiveness for cost.

Because the Sorcerer is such an expensive tax, not to mention the Primaris and 1-2 psyker spell is weak.

Because they are slow, outside of a rhino

Because they Cannot Overwatch, thus even using their guns to defend themselves from melee.

Because they still die to mass of fire, making the 4++ useless

They cost more then Plague Marines, who get an effective double save that'll still be gained, who have T5, who have FNP, who have Poison.

They have a horrible banner that doesn't match what they are supposed to do (kill MEQ)

They are horrible in melee, and the Sorcerer is forced to challenge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 21:57:26


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





What sort of meta do you play in that ignores 4++ invulnerable saves??


The meta where, as other people have just said, 3 Missilesides can delete a whole unit in one turn. A 4++ isn't bad, it's the fact that you're paying a huge amount of points for a marine that dies just as quickly to AP4 or worse than a normal marine. This is why you don't see GK Purifiers anymore -- you can have all the gear you want, but when you're almost twice the cost of a DA tactical marine, and you die just as quickly to fire that doesn't break your armor, you're gonna have a bad time. Yes you have AP3 bolters, but there are two problems. One, you don't see that many marines in tournaments anyways. Two, your bolters don't ignore cover. In an edition where cover and cover shenanigans are easy to get, AP3 isn't as much of a benefit as GW thinks it is. The reason the Heldrake works so well is because it simultaneously ignores most armor saves and all cover saves.

And then we have the sorcerer, who would be so amazing...if only he wasn't restricted to the Tzeentch tree. If he had access to Divination, or even Telepathy, there would be potential for a good use of minimum units of TSons just to get a bunch of good psykers. As it is, however, they're stuck with the Tzeentch powers, which basically makes them glorified short range heavy weapons guys that need to make a psychic test before shooting, and then can get denied. All that for, what, an AP -- Small blast? A single S8 AP1 shot that then, because you're probably shooting at a vehicle, makes the rest of the unit's shooting worthless? A blessing that requires the presence of another character, that could either kill them or turn them into a spawn? If he had prescience, or perfect timing, or could be upgraded to ML2 and get Invisibility or Hallucinate, then you'd have a case for TSons for the sorcerer, but he's not worth it with only Tzeentch powers, and certainly not for the huge points cost you pay for him.

So, TSons are overpriced for a job that a heldrake can do better, die just as easily as normal marines, and have a largely useless and also overpriced sergeant/special weapons guy. I love me some heresy era TSons, but right now they just don't work in this meta. If marines come back into prominence, and AP3 or AP2 weapons become exceedingly common, then there may be a place for TSons, but even then, why take them when you can take a heldrake?

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 IHateNids wrote:
I love them

Im with you on this, I don't understand why everyone hates them


Because they are more expensive marines without an increase in effectiveness for cost.

AP3 vs. 5 is no increase? lol, good try

Because the Sorcerer is such an expensive tax, not to mention the Primaris and 1-2 psyker spell is weak.

Sorcerer tax is a lot, but s8 ap 1 beam is weak? lol, good try

Because they are slow, outside of a rhino

true

Because they Cannot Overwatch, thus even using their guns to defend themselves from melee.

true

Because they still die to mass of fire, making the 4++ useless

They cost more then Plague Marines, who get an effective double save that'll still be gained, who have T5, who have FNP, who have Poison.

true, but plague marines don't kill MEQs (still agree with your point

They have a horrible banner that doesn't match what they are supposed to do (kill MEQ)

No banners are worth it except excess, point irrelevant

They are horrible in melee, and the Sorcerer is forced to challenge.

they are the same as regular marines, except if the sorc makes his invuls he has a (small) chance of killing anything in the game. good try




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and as far as dying to mass fire: yes, but every single unit in the game dies to mass fire, and 4++ is nothing to scoff at. point irrelevant

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 22:06:54


 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





setual wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 IHateNids wrote:
I love them

Im with you on this, I don't understand why everyone hates them


Because they are more expensive marines without an increase in effectiveness for cost.

AP3 vs. 5 is no increase? lol, good try

Because the Sorcerer is such an expensive tax, not to mention the Primaris and 1-2 psyker spell is weak.

Sorcerer tax is a lot, but s8 ap 1 beam is weak? lol, good try

Because they are slow, outside of a rhino

true

Because they Cannot Overwatch, thus even using their guns to defend themselves from melee.

true

Because they still die to mass of fire, making the 4++ useless

They cost more then Plague Marines, who get an effective double save that'll still be gained, who have T5, who have FNP, who have Poison.

true, but plague marines don't kill MEQs (still agree with your point

They have a horrible banner that doesn't match what they are supposed to do (kill MEQ)

No banners are worth it except excess, point irrelevant

They are horrible in melee, and the Sorcerer is forced to challenge.

they are the same as regular marines, except if the sorc makes his invuls he has a (small) chance of killing anything in the game. good try




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and as far as dying to mass fire: yes, but every single unit in the game dies to mass fire, and 4++ is nothing to scoff at. point irrelevant


You ignored my point completely just to pick out one yet you still quoted the entire thing, and the point isn't irrelevant because apparently you can't actually come up with anything to debate my points.

Also, lets compare a similar unit then. The basic CSM

What can the 1ksons do that a single squad of 10 with 2 Plasma cant do better?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 22:11:05


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




@tharlinye saying marines dont show up in tournies is incorrect, look up midwest tournies, many (yes, MANY) have been won by Dark Angels lists. Also, one s8 ap1 shot is inaccurate, as they autohit as many models as the line goes through, generally more than one, which makes it effective vs. any vehicle squadrons as well as better than a plasma gun, generally speaking. Plus, (and I can't believe I have to say this again) if the enemy is "mass fire" ing at your Ksons, the rest of your army is untouched.

Also, stop saying they can't compete with HDrakes for points, everyone knows that's true, and HDrakes are maxed in most competitive lists already, which makes that point irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, does anyone have any actual EXPERIENCE with them where they've failed? I've already said I've been running them and they're awesome, you're all saying they sucked based on theory (as far as I can tell).....anyone actually had negative experience? If so, how/why?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 22:17:02


 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





setual wrote:
@tharlinye saying marines dont show up in tournies is incorrect, look up midwest tournies, many (yes, MANY) have been won by Dark Angels lists. Also, one s8 ap1 shot is inaccurate, as they autohit as many models as the line goes through, generally more than one, which makes it effective vs. any vehicle squadrons as well as better than a plasma gun, generally speaking. Plus, (and I can't believe I have to say this again) if the enemy is "mass fire" ing at your Ksons, the rest of your army is untouched.

Also, stop saying they can't compete with HDrakes for points, everyone knows that's true, and HDrakes are maxed in most competitive lists already, which makes that point irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, does anyone have any actual EXPERIENCE with them where they've failed? I've already said I've been running them and they're awesome, you're all saying they sucked based on theory (as far as I can tell).....anyone actually had negative experience? If so, how/why?


If the enemy is mass-firing at your Ksons (which is mostly just standard bolter fire and the like) they'll make their points back just by killing that sorcerer/expensive MEQ.

Plasma guns don't autohit, but your guaranteed a chance for it rather then hoping for 3-4 on the chart, and don't have the possibility to lose a 50+ point model to perils of the warp.

I've run them, quite a few times in a desperate attempt to make them work, from 4th to 6th, but they just don't work, and with Eldar having high shots at high S, they just don't have much to defend themselves with, and the 4++ is worse then a 5+ FNP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 22:23:10


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
[

Also, lets compare a similar unit then. The basic CSM

What can the 1ksons do that a single squad of 10 with 2 Plasma cant do better?


They will, on average:

force more 5+ cover saves

ignore gets hot

s8 ap 1, even with rolling only 50% of the time, means you will kill more than two plasma guns combined (which, statistically, voids one of the plasma guns). Plus, their 4++ means Battle Cannons, IG barrage tanks and the equivalent are irrelevant, no reason to hide in cover. Plus, if the opponent is dumb enough to concentrate fire on them or GtG against their shooting (which, it sounds like, most people in this thread would be) they've put a lot of points into whittling down an allegedly non-threatening unit. Plus, they're fearless so if you don't kill them all in a round or two of combat you've given my assault units time to come assist them. A unit of Chaos Marines will die in a round or two vs. termies. KSons will take twice as long to die, and once my Bloodthirster gets there you're not going to be winning combat for long whether you have SS or not (coming from experience).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can't believe I have to say this again:

IF THE ENEMY FOCUSES ALL FIRE AGAINST THEM THE REST OF THE CSM ARMY IS FREE TO ADVANCE UNIMPEDED.

You're really trying to argue that this is a weakness of KSons? I wrote in my original post that I try to bait people into doing this. Perhaps your list isn't strong enough to support Ksons then, but don't make your tactical inability sound like their weakness. If all fire going to a single unit of yours is something you think is negative then you've put too many eggs in one basket or have been playing at too small a point value to take Ksons, which is your fault, not theirs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 22:30:33


 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets







force more 5+ cover saves

ignore gets hot


Perils is worse then getting hot, considering you still get a save.


s8 ap 1, even with rolling only 50% of the time, means you will kill more than two plasma guns combined (which, statistically, voids one of the plasma guns).


If you get it of course.

Plus, their 4++ means Battle Cannons, IG barrage tanks and the equivalent are irrelevant, no reason to hide in cover.


I'm beginning to understand how you do so well with 1k sons if your enemy fires these at them

Plus, if the opponent is dumb enough to concentrate fire on them or GtG against their shooting (which, it sounds like, most people in this thread would be) they've put a lot of points into whittling down an allegedly non-threatening unit. Plus, they're fearless so if you don't kill them all in a round or two of combat you've given my assault units time to come assist them


All you really need to do is force them with standard bolters/heavy bolters and the like, or alternatively just charge the unit with a cheaper, throw away unit and leave them there all game.

A unit of Chaos Marines will die in a round or two vs. termies. KSons will take twice as long to die


So you've effectively spent all those points for AP3 bolters, your S8 AP1 sorcerer, in order to make a tarpit unit that's still far worse then just taking Plague Marines.



IF THE ENEMY FOCUSES ALL FIRE AGAINST THEM THE REST OF THE CSM ARMY IS FREE TO ADVANCE UNIMPEDED.

You're really trying to argue that this is a weakness of KSons? I wrote in my original post that I try to bait people into doing this. Perhaps your list isn't strong enough to support Ksons then, but don't make your tactical inability sound like their weakness. If all fire going to a single unit of yours is something you think is negative then you've put too many eggs in one basket or have been playing at too small a point value to take Ksons, which is your fault, not theirs.


All fire? Seriously, you must be facing some terrible people with bad lists if you actually win with this.

You're making it sound like all your facing are new people who actually have never fought 1ksons before, which is okay, I mean you think your hot stuff and all when you beat newer people, but they just aren't good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 22:36:18


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:



Perils is worse then getting hot, considering you still get a save.


False, get hot has better chance of happening plus it has two opportunities w/ 2 plasma (do some math)

s8 ap 1, even with rolling only 50% of the time, means you will kill more than two plasma guns combined (which, statistically, voids one of the plasma guns).


If you get it of course.

on average you'll get it 1/2, so half the time. statistically, this voids HALF your plasma. again, do some math please.

Plus, their 4++ means Battle Cannons, IG barrage tanks and the equivalent are irrelevant, no reason to hide in cover.


I'm beginning to understand how you do so well with 1k sons if your enemy fires these at them

sometimes heavy weapons are necessary at troop choices, have you actually played since fourth? I doubt it.

Plus, if the opponent is dumb enough to concentrate fire on them or GtG against their shooting (which, it sounds like, most people in this thread would be) they've put a lot of points into whittling down an allegedly non-threatening unit. Plus, they're fearless so if you don't kill them all in a round or two of combat you've given my assault units time to come assist them


All you really need to do is force them with standard bolters/heavy bolters and the like, or alternatively just charge the unit with a cheaper, throw away unit and leave them there all game.

Like i said, they're not sitting there alone. Bring some assault units with your CSM if you don't know how to handle tarpits (again, hard to believe you've played since fourth)

A unit of Chaos Marines will die in a round or two vs. termies. KSons will take twice as long to die


So you've effectively spent all those points for AP3 bolters, your S8 AP1 sorcerer, in order to make a tarpit unit that's still far worse then just taking Plague Marines.

Tarpit that's 16% better vs. power weapons? worth it in tourny settings (doubt you have the experience to know that, friend)



IF THE ENEMY FOCUSES ALL FIRE AGAINST THEM THE REST OF THE CSM ARMY IS FREE TO ADVANCE UNIMPEDED.

You're really trying to argue that this is a weakness of KSons? I wrote in my original post that I try to bait people into doing this. Perhaps your list isn't strong enough to support Ksons then, but don't make your tactical inability sound like their weakness. If all fire going to a single unit of yours is something you think is negative then you've put too many eggs in one basket or have been playing at too small a point value to take Ksons, which is your fault, not theirs.


All fire? Seriously, you must be facing some terrible people with bad lists if you actually win with this.

You're making it sound like all your facing are new people who actually have never fought 1ksons before, which is okay, I mean you think your hot stuff and all when you beat newer people, but they just aren't good.


focussing on two words of my point is petty, try again and I'll address it, newfriend
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





setual wrote:
@tharlinye saying marines dont show up in tournies is incorrect, look up midwest tournies, many (yes, MANY) have been won by Dark Angels lists. Also, one s8 ap1 shot is inaccurate, as they autohit as many models as the line goes through, generally more than one, which makes it effective vs. any vehicle squadrons as well as better than a plasma gun, generally speaking. Plus, (and I can't believe I have to say this again) if the enemy is "mass fire" ing at your Ksons, the rest of your army is untouched.

Also, stop saying they can't compete with HDrakes for points, everyone knows that's true, and HDrakes are maxed in most competitive lists already, which makes that point irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, does anyone have any actual EXPERIENCE with them where they've failed? I've already said I've been running them and they're awesome, you're all saying they sucked based on theory (as far as I can tell).....anyone actually had negative experience? If so, how/why?


I currently don't have any experience with them, so yes, this is all dojo stuff. If you're having success with them, that's actually great. I really love their fluff, and I want people to field them because they're cool, but I currently don't see how they can compete in the current meta.

Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones).
AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant.
Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is.
Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.

There are, of course, other possible DA lists, but these are the ones that I've seen do well. Thousand Sons do not do well against any of these lists. Do you see something in common with these DA lists? A lack of power armor foot bodies. Inferno bolts are ideally best used against things like Fire Dragons or Striking Scorpions -- T3 with a 3+ save. If you face a lot of these, and can somehow get in range of them without them assaulting you first, then AP3 bolters have some use (unless they get in cover).

Here's the thing about their survivability. It's not 'shoot your whole army at the TSons to kill them.' It's 'shoot a single shooty unit at them to make them ineffective at achieving your tactical objectives.' Marines are pretty easy to kill nowadays. A single broadside unit putting out 12 TL S7 and 12 TL S5 shots at 30" will deplete a unit of T4 3+ save guys, and that's not that big a portion of a Tau firebase. Against Eldar, you're actually in a bit of better place, as long as the eldar player brought all their AP2 weaponry, and none of their S6 volume of fire...which they typically bring as well.

In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





Believe what you will I suppose, I'm bowing out before this topic takes a nastier turn. Have fun with your units then.
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

Here's one reason why 1k sons suck, the other guy has guardsmen, kroot, warriors with orbs, boyz, cultists/zombies, or gants. You are paying a premium to ignore a save on a dirt cheap model (which the necrons can have stand back up and the tyranids can replace), that never expects the save anyway and fire a vast amount of poor AP shots so the points you pay for 4++ is meaningless. I guess soulblaze can help a little though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 23:04:30


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

I remember taking my conscript horde against a 1K Sons list once. Now that did not end well for the other player!
   
Made in au
Terrifying Treeman






The Fallen Realm of Umbar

I think another part of it is special and heavy weapons, Bezerkers aside, the two most popular cult choices both have access to some special and/or heavy weapons upgrades, which allows them to be extremely versatile, as opposed to filling just one niche, not to mention they don't suck in combat either.

Theoretical: If Thousand Sons had access to Heavy and Special Weapons that had their AP improved by 2, inline with their boltguns and bolt pisols, would people take them more?

DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Thariinye wrote:
[
Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones).
AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant.
Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is.
Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.

Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?


In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.


Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
I remember taking my conscript horde against a 1K Sons list once. Now that did not end well for the other player!


That just means the other player either:
only had Ksons as troops, which is not how the army was meant to be played (unless he was only playing a fluffy list, in which case he didn't care that he lost) or he gave you no better target to shoot at in which case he had a horrible list from the beginning

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/15 23:27:14


 
   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

setual wrote:
 Thariinye wrote:
[
Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones).
AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant.
Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is.
Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.

Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?


In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.


Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.




How does it feel to be so wrong?

Thousand Sons are the worst cult unit in the codex (possibly tied with Khorne Berserkers but at least KB are much cheaper), the meta is geared towards everything that screws them over. Weight of fire annihilates 1Ksons and you don't even get to use your invul save. You will get tabled by Tau, Necrons, and Guard easily.

1K Sons have never featured in any winning tournament list, even in their 4th edition codex where they were almost exactly the same. I think you're the casual one here, but your projecting is cute.

setual wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
I remember taking my conscript horde against a 1K Sons list once. Now that did not end well for the other player!


That just means the other player either:
only had Ksons as troops, which is not how the army was meant to be played (unless he was only playing a fluffy list, in which case he didn't care that he lost) or he gave you no better target to shoot at in which case he had a horrible list from the beginning


Oh so moving the goalpost now? So 1K Sons need support and they can't be the only troop choice, and for some reason if you only use 1K sons then you're only using a fluff list? If someone only used Plague Marines as troops they would be fine. If someone only used Noise Marines as troops they'd be fine. But nooooo, not the glorious 1K Sons.

:edit: He also used the typical 2 Heldrakes/Obliterators and all that jazz, still lost. 1K Sons are a paperweight of the highest caliber.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 23:33:47


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Kain wrote:
Here's one reason why 1k sons suck, the other guy has guardsmen, kroot, warriors with orbs, boyz, cultists/zombies, or gants. You are paying a premium to ignore a save on a dirt cheap model (which the necrons can have stand back up and the tyranids can replace), that never expects the save anyway and fire a vast amount of poor AP shots so the points you pay for 4++ is meaningless. I guess soulblaze can help a little though.


Guardsmen - easy to avoid, easier to kill with other units on my list. Guardsmen blobs are not competitive.

Kroot - I gain the 4++ vs their rends

warriors - I still win combat with literally any other unit I have on the table

Boyz - surely you're not serious?

Cultists - again, surely you're not serious?

Gants - Kill their HQs and they are a non-factor

I was told this was the forum sight to come to for competitive advice, the people who made that suggestion are quickly being proven wrong.....this my be my last post here


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
setual wrote:
 Thariinye wrote:
[
Dark Angels lists, eh? Let's go through some common DA lists (I don't know which one of these won tournaments, but these are the standard ones).
AV14 Land Raiders with Bolter Banner. TSons aren't helping here, neither are heldrakes. Neither can pierce AV14, so the question is largely irrelevant.
Bikes with Bolter banner. Here TSons aren't that good either -- they wound on 5s, and still have to get through a jink save, and a single biker unit under the bolter banner can still easily demolish a unit of TSons. On the other hand, Heldrakes completely defeat this list, unless the DA player has also brought a heldrake hard counter...whatever that is.
Azrael in a guard blob. This also is another area where TSons don't do very well. To kill a 4++ guard blob, you want volume of fire, not quality of fire.

Land Raiders aren't fielded in competitive play, idk where you were going with that. Bikers wouldn't take the banner, but nonetheless yes, Heldrakes kill them, I wouldn't waste Kson fire on them. Azrael in any blob is also not competitive....you've exposed yourself as a casual player, which is fine, to each his own, but I play with competitive players, so does anyone else have anything to say?


In response to the beam argument -- if your opponent is lining up multiple low AV vehicles in such a way such that a Slow and Purposeful unit can maneuver to get them in a line within 18", your opponent is, shall we say, doin' it wrong.


Also SnP still move 6 in this edition, you've confirmed you are extremely casual, thank you for leaving the thread.




How does it feel to be so wrong?

Thousand Sons are the worst cult unit in the codex (possibly tied with Khorne Berserkers but at least KB are much cheaper), the meta is geared towards everything that screws them over. Weight of fire annihilates 1Ksons and you don't even get to use your invul save. You will get tabled by Tau, Necrons, and Guard easily.

1K Sons have never featured in any winning tournament list, even in their 4th edition codex where they were almost exactly the same. I think you're the casual one here, but your projecting is cute.


Haven't been tabled in a tournament yet, and yes I've faced every Necrom list you can imagine and countless Tau Lists (no one seriously plays Guard in tournies around me, but that could be a meta thing). You made an attempt, but 1/10 troll (cuz I replied).

Get some experience, son


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh so moving the goalpost now? So 1K Sons need support and they can't be the only troop choice, and for some reason if you only use 1K sons then you're only using a fluff list? If someone only used Plague Marines as troops they would be fine. If someone only used Noise Marines as troops they'd be fine. But nooooo, not the glorious 1K Sons.

:edit: He also used the typical 2 Heldrakes/Obliterators and all that jazz, still lost. 1K Sons are a paperweight of the highest caliber.

Not really moving the goalpost, you've just exposed that players around you don't know how to make lists. That's fine, they probably do ok, but one unit of thousand sons in an army can be a huge benefit if used right. I never once said they were my only troop choice, in fact i flat out stated I used allies so they could literally not be the only troop choice if I wanted them too.....how f***ing casual are you, newb?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, Noise Marines are not tournie calibre troops either....good god friend, go to sleep, this is not a discussion for you....

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/07/15 23:46:13


 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

This is gonna be another Shadar and the flayed ones thread isn't it?

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

 Kain wrote:
This is gonna be another Shadar and the flayed ones thread isn't it?


Shadar actually makes compelling arguments, with thought, reason, and math to back it up.

This thread on the other hand, is just a train wreck.

4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
:Necron: Necron Discord: https://discord.com/invite/AGtpeD4  
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

setual wrote:

Oh, and as far as dying to mass fire: yes, but every single unit in the game dies to mass fire, and 4++ is nothing to scoff at. point irrelevant

Land Raiders shrug off massed fire
As do guard blobs, Ork Boyz, Plague marines. Even basic CSM. When you cost so little the amount of fire power needed to wipe or neuter the unit is obsene.
Tsons on the other hand cost so much that even a small amount of easily available fire will make them rather useless. 265 points for a squad of 10. 265 points buys you 44 ork shoota boys or 30 with 3 big shootas, a tooled out nob and 50 points leftover. At 18" they will kill 4 tsons. At 13-24" those Tsons will kill 2.22 ork boyz as the boyz will certainly have cover. At 12" or less, they will kill nearly 5 orkboyz, but they will also be in charge range. You know how much orkz dont care about losing 5 models? You know how much expensive 23+tax point elite tson infantry care about losing 4 models?
Or a tactical squad. 265 points buys you 20 CSM or 18 DA tactical marines. At 13-24" they will kill over 2 tsons. At 13-24" the tsons will again kill 3 marines out of cover but again 2 in cover. 2 marines is 10% of the tac marine unit. 2 Tsons is 20% and things go down from there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:

1K Sons are a paperweight of the highest caliber.


Now they are finecast+plastic, they dont even do that job very well anymore

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/16 00:10:42


Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Sasori wrote:
 Kain wrote:
This is gonna be another Shadar and the flayed ones thread isn't it?


Shadar actually makes compelling arguments, with thought, reason, and math to back it up.

This thread on the other hand, is just a train wreck.
He did convince me to use FOs in my dark harvest list, I'll subscribe to this thread for the lulz it will soon bring.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: