What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

BA are better than Black Templars. That's all I have to say about that.

Black Templars and....squats?

Thats about it...

"better than" in terms of what? threads like this usually spiral into flame wars or unsubstantiated opinions.

Clarification would help.

Sisters of Battle, maybe? You've still got a couple good options, but you're an entirely dedicated assault army in an edition that hates assault. Even Orks have Lootas and Space Wolves have Long Fangs. You've got... Um... Bolt guns?

I'm guessing "better than" in terms of codex quality. There's no need for flame wars. Just objective assessments. The only answer I can give with a clear conscience is Black Templars.

And why black templars is the question I must pose back?

Yes I mean in tactical potential/competitiveness.

Well, they are Space Marines, so that elevates them right there. In terms of potential, its mostly up to the player.

Divination librarians is one major reason. Access to FNP.

They're better than BT because BT are using 4th ed pricing and rules. BA simply have better options at their disposal.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Sisters of Battle, maybe? You've still got a couple good options, but you're an entirely dedicated assault army in an edition that hates assault. Even Orks have Lootas and Space Wolves have Long Fangs. You've got... Um... Bolt guns?

Even then sisters have exorcists which are pretty epic, I do hate scrolling through a PDF codex though.

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

The added dimension of allies makes it very hard to say who the best/worst armies are. For example if you are only looking at pure forces (i.e without allies) then BA are definitely better than Sisters, but once the Sisters bring some Guard allies along for the ride then they are probably stronger than any combination that BA can do. But yeah BA are not in a good place at the moment, they are definitely down at the bottom of the pile with Orks, Templars and Dark Eldar as one of the weaker armies. Its mostly due to their troops being terrible, Jumpers just don't have anywhere near the punch they need to carry an army (and are too expensive to use as deckchairs), Razorspam is too fragile and Rhino rush is long dead. The best BA list I have seen recently was a crazy one which ran 3 Stormravens and a bunch of Frag Cannon Furiosos in Pods (they go in the Ravens if the Pods aren't going to acheive anything), but its incredibly unbalanced and definitely not something I would recommend.

The added dimension of play styles affects playability even more. My buddy who pkays Blood Angels plays it rather different than most I have seen does very well with it.

Relapse wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

We're factoring that out. Given skill as equal, then rate the BA.

well, access to chaplain/apothecaries in every unit is good. Death company with power weapons are good. librarian dreadnoughts with wings are good. a chance at getting furious charge is good.

LIbby dreads, for their price, are really not all that.

then you're not doing it right.

I think black Templar can be good. I roll up in my all dedicated land raider crusaders and assault out of them. (I don't do it but it sounds awesome)

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
then you're not doing it right.

OH!!!! It's on now!

Please explain load outs, deployment tactics and power selections to make a 175+ point AV13 melee dread even remotely relevant.

Best load out IMO; Force axe, powers are wings and 5+ cover bubble. That way you can cast both powers each turn, since you use the warp charge from your opponent's turn to cast shield and wings to move you up.

He works best, in theory, in a jumper list. As it's able to keep pace with jumpers and provide at least some melee support, even though it has a paltry 4 attacks on the charge. The problem of course is the lack other armored targets to create armor saturation for him in this style of list. Putting him into a heavier vehicle list (Baals, preds/vindis, more dreads...etc) means the dread itself lacks the support it needs to dig itself out of larger units. Even a 10 man squad of marines can potentially tarpit him for 5+ phases.

I mean...what's it even GOOD against? It cannot challenge like a wraithlord can (for some reason?) so he can't take out the fists/melta bombs targetting him, he lacks the attacks to cut through infantry units in any quantity. He lacks the initiative to apply his force weapon to monstrous creatures before getting buried. No ranged attacks to speak of. Limited to no utility.....I mean, a single thunderwolf with a thunderhammer and storm shield is more consistent and more overall damage, and won't die to a single melta-gun shot either.

There's other loadouts I suppose...maybe a drop-pod and divination combo? But you do pretty much squat on arrival and have to pray your opponent doesn't just walk out of melee range of you.....

I don't see how anyone could think these are competitive compared to other options out there.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
then you're not doing it right.

For 175 pts, there is no way to "do it right". I'm sick of hearing this about BA. When everything costs more than its actually worth in a battlefield situation, there is no way to "do it right".

As far as I know, the libby dread is only good at catching lascannon fire from Vendettas.

contrary to everyone's lists, not everyone has Vendettas...

I have been hammered multiple times by "non-competitve" armies, like Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Tyranids; some of which were not the same unimaginative net-lists. That's what makes threads like this just as unimaginative. Good armies suffer with poor play, and a great player can make even Orks into a competitive army.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
contrary to everyone's lists, not everyone has Vendettas...

I have been hammered multiple times by "non-competitve" armies, like Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Tyranids; some of which were not the same unimaginative net-lists. That's what makes threads like this just as unimaginative. Good armies suffer with poor play, and a great player can make even Orks into a competitive army.

The same great player would be better off with another army, though.

Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
contrary to everyone's lists, not everyone has Vendettas...

I have been hammered multiple times by "non-competitve" armies, like Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Tyranids; some of which were not the same unimaginative net-lists. That's what makes threads like this just as unimaginative. Good armies suffer with poor play, and a great player can make even Orks into a competitive army.

The same great player would be better off with another army, though.

Why? to stay "viable", "competitive", and all the other trite terms for a one-click army?

Codex-wise, we still have a lot of options to pick from that aren't necessarily what spring to mind when you think Blood Angels. We still have vanilla Dreadnoughts, Predators, Whirlwinds, Tactical squads, Sternguard, Scouts, Bikes, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, Land Raiders (and easily available ones at that)...we do have viable units.

What we don't have is a useful unique *thing* to set them apart that almost every other army has (with the possible exception of vanilla Marines if you don't take a character with Chapter Tactics). The unique things we do have are overcosted now that 6th edition has nerfed the rules they use. While Fast vehicles are nice to have, they end up costing us extra thereby meaning we get to take less vehicles overall.

Overall, I can't comment on Black Templars having not read the Codex. So the only Codex I can say we're better than is Orks, not because we have a better Codex necessarily, but because we have a lot of tools for taking on Orks that they don't have much reply to.
Our Devastators are relatively cheap if you take the mob-handling options like missile launchers or heavy bolters. Land Raider Crusaders and Baal Predators can put out a lot of firepower and Orks don't have that many things that can reliably take out the Land Raider's AV14 in return. Death Company and blendernaughts still make an absolute mess of your average Boyz mob, and we have easy access to lots of flamer weapons, even down to a pistol version. Lastly, one of our biggest nerfs - the loss of +1 Initiative from Furious Charge - isn't an issue against most Orks anyway.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

Better terminators (more special weapons for them), and I think even speeders were cheaper, but I might be wrong about the last one.

BA is better than.. Well not definently sisters, their churchmobiles are horrible to play against. And so is Celestine..

So this thread is now going to degenerate into everyone defending their favorite book... just like every thread like this one. Thank you, warpspider89...

 Shan1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

Better terminators (more special weapons for them), and I think even speeders were cheaper, but I might be wrong about the last one.

BA is better than.. Well not definently sisters, their churchmobiles are horrible to play against. And so is Celestine..

Indeed, that's what I'm thinking. BT Terminators are great and make up for a decent list with 5 Termie squads.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Shan1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

Better terminators (more special weapons for them), and I think even speeders were cheaper, but I might be wrong about the last one.

BA is better than.. Well not definently sisters, their churchmobiles are horrible to play against. And so is Celestine..

Indeed, that's what I'm thinking. BT Terminators are great and make up for a decent list with 5 Termie squads.

You can almost get 10 BA Devestators with Missile Launchers for the cost of 5 BT Terminators with dual CMLs and Tank Hunters. If the problem with BA is that everything is expensive then the problem with BT is that everything is expensive and most of it isn't that good. Dual CML Terminators are solid, but that's it. If you think BA Troops choices suck, check out the BT Codex. If you think BA have issues getting into CC, try Templars. If you think BA HQ choices are expensive for little gain, try Templars. BA have better Troops, better HQs, better Fast Attack and better Heavy Support than Black Templars. The dual CML/Assault Cannon loadouts for Terminators singlehandedly carries the Elite slot to victory for the Templars, but not by much.

Why BA are better than other armies I've encountered/played? Let me tell you what I've learned from my mistakes and observation:

- The notorious Death Company! I know, they won't score, but who cares, when you empty the enemy's objectives with this implaceable black blob of doom?
- Tanks move twice the distance, due to FAST rule. Hi, I am a Vanilla Marine player, and I'd also love to have a Vindicator that moves 12" and shoots.
- Special Character HQ's are truly something to be afraid of. Such as Mephiston with Biomancy discipline (not only he has an insane statline, if that dude gets It Will Not Die, Relentless and Eternal Warrior, he's broken)
- And also:


Allright, those are quite good benefits. On the other hand, BA will suffer:

- The tanks are expensive. If you wish to have some machines on the table, they'll eat up your points well.
- Non-special HQ's are not worth taking, considering their cost-effectiveness (counting out the Reclusiarch, and even he needs henchmen to stay alive). I WON'T take a well-geared captain that costs over 120 points... unless he's on a bike.
- The Red Thirst on the objective games, and when you NEED to stay on them to win. Oh, your capping troops got Fearless and Furious Charge? Good, so they won't be able to get down to get +1 cover save! My devastators and thunderfire cannons are most pleased.
- Some DERPS in the codex. Deep striking Land Raiders? Seriously, who DARES to use that feature? And Librarian Dreadnought... *sigh* I've never seen that unit being useful.

I would actually dispute that BA are better than Sisters at this point. I should know as the 2 armies I run are BA and Sisters!

I've been opting to run my Sisters over my BA and have been surprised how effective they are, sure they're fragile but can put out a surprising amount of hurt.

The biggest problems for BA is that are troops aren't threatening enough, ASM just are scary by the time they reach assault as the downgrade to FNP makes us much more susceptable to small-arms-fire, not to mention the amount of ap3 or better weapons floating around. Sure we get armour saves for dangerous terrain now so it's easier tto get a cover save but ultimately this just slows you down and gives the enermy further oppotunity to reduce your numbers and effectiveness. Our vehicles come at a premium cost (fast should be an upgrade, not included as standard) and vehicles aren't as durable as they use to be and we have lost alot of potrntial in firepower output because of this. We have alot of dreads many of which can't perform in the shooting meta and our fluffy uniits and characters are too expensive to realistically consider in a TAC list.

It's not all doom and gloom though, I still have fun with my BA andyou can still win games.

D

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So this thread is now going to degenerate into everyone defending their favorite book... just like every thread like this one. Thank you, warpspider89...

Well I don't do that. And I've already seen some input I've never heard before. And I don't see anyone defending their "favorite" book. I see the usual suspects being bandied about: Sisters, BT, Orks when talking about the bottom of the 40K heap.

The BA may match up decently against Orks, but I still feel like the Ork codex is better against the field than the BA. We can look at this two ways:

BA vs specific codex

BA vs all possible matchups
Comparison codex vs all possible matchups

It's the TAC environment and vs the field where I think BA basically blow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tigramans wrote:
Why BA are better than other armies I've encountered/played? Let me tell you what I've learned from my mistakes and observation:

- The notorious Death Company! I know, they won't score, but who cares, when you empty the enemy's objectives with this implaceable black blob of doom?
- Tanks move twice the distance, due to FAST rule. Hi, I am a Vanilla Marine player, and I'd also love to have a Vindicator that moves 12" and shoots.
- Special Character HQ's are truly something to be afraid of. Such as Mephiston with Biomancy discipline (not only he has an insane statline, if that dude gets It Will Not Die, Relentless and Eternal Warrior, he's broken)
- And also:

Spoiler:

Damn you, Sanguinary Priests.

Allright, those are quite good benefits. On the other hand, BA will suffer:

- The tanks are expensive. If you wish to have some machines on the table, they'll eat up your points well.
- Non-special HQ's are not worth taking, considering their cost-effectiveness (counting out the Reclusiarch, and even he needs henchmen to stay alive). I WON'T take a well-geared captain that costs over 120 points... unless he's on a bike.
- The Red Thirst on the objective games, and when you NEED to stay on them to win. Oh, your capping troops got Fearless and Furious Charge? Good, so they won't be able to get down to get +1 cover save! My devastators and thunderfire cannons are most pleased.
- Some DERPS in the codex. Deep striking Land Raiders? Seriously, who DARES to use that feature? And Librarian Dreadnought... *sigh* I've never seen that unit being useful.

BA special HQs are fething terrible for the points. I don't what 40K universe you beamed in from, but even Mephiston is rather dubious now. The poor guy can't reliably beat up any schlub with a 2+ save.

since sixth ed, I have play blood angel for 6 games;

I have more win then lose but it was last year when 6th just come out.

I think the result was 4:0:2

the list that I run in 5th 2000pt;

Libby Jump pack
Libby Jump pack

chaplian Jump pack
chaplian Jump pack

S priest Jump pack
S priest Jump pack
S priest

Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power weapon
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power weapon
Assault 10 men,
Assault 10 men,

dev 5 men 4 las cannon
dev 5 men 4 Pas cannon
dev 5 men 4 Missile launcher

the 5th list was quite nice because it is even and symmetrical.

the devs will sit with the priest in cover at the deployment zone and
Libby will join chaplian join jump priest;attach to one of the naked troop;

the naked troops are road block and will take damage.
the tooled up troop will follow closely; when in range; the independent charactors will swap troop; then charge in full strenght

dev will act as bait; assault army will try to go hand to hand with them; for shooty army; BA being space marine they will most likely outshoot them

also when assaulting tanks, choose to use melee weapon rather then kark granade; at strength 5 back armour 10 hits on 5s.

in 5th the i5 means that force weapon, power weapon (serg) and chaplian will go first; 12 attack reroll to hit s5 i5 means that it usually wipe out all; this was the main damage dealer
in 5th fnp means that BA almost immune to small arm fire.
all start on board, no need to reserve; just get cover


but we are in 6th now so:


the list that I run in 6th 2000pt;

Captain Tycho

chaplian (or libby) Jump pack

chaplian

Cobulo
S priest
S priest Jump pack


Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe


dev 5 men 4 las cannon
dev 5 men 4 Pas cannon
dev 5 men 4 Missile launcher

since 6th; the i5 is gone, power weapon is graded and fnp is 5+; but the battle plan is more or less the same;
the dev will sit in cover with naked priest;

tycho join naked chaplian join cobulo sit close to dev group.

the assault join jump chaplian (or libby) and jump priest going out as a group. support by another group of assault marine

it is more shooty now so the emphasis is dev shooting and use assault as interceptors / road block; rather then the main damage dealer.

if anyone silly enough to get too close to the devs sent out tycho group; his i5, no armour save, plus reroll to hit form chaplian will hit hard on most unit.

same as 5th all start on board, no need to reserve; just get cover



I am temped to add tech marine, servistor to tycho's group; also add dante, space marine ally and reduce the assult troops; but I think it will wear quite thin on the troop choice.

Martel732 wrote:

BA special HQs are fething terrible for the points. I don't what 40K universe you beamed in from, but even Mephiston is rather dubious now. The poor guy can't reliably beat up any schlub with a 2+ save.

As I mentioned before, Biomancy is the thing that makes him insane. Without it, he might be less than decent. If you roll Iron Arm, Endurance and Warp Speed, and keep Endurance up and running with the librarian, he has Feel No Pain, Relentless, and It Will Not Die. He has a toughness of six, initiative of SEVEN, and FIVE fragging wounds! Truly something that even Calgar is jealous of. He's not an Eternal Warrior, but who gives a damn when the only thing that slays him is Instant Death, Jaws, or the rest a handful of special weapons/spells that nullifies his saves, what - at least what I've observed - are quite uncommon.

Also, I just had a match with BA today, and ate half a table with Mephiston. Right, he was traveling with a Stormraven, got immobilised when on the table, so he got back to the reserve again. In the next turn, I crashed him nearby the opponent's objective, ran towards the cappers and actually emptied the whole place during the 6th-7th round. He had Life Leech, Endurance and Haemorrhage as psychic powers from Biomancy, and I constantly rolled successfully the Endurance, thus being nigh-impossible to kill, and he just got the wounds back from It Will Not Die and Life Leech by sucking a few marines from the Tactical squad ranks. The gang of Vulkan He'stan simply disappeared in front of the Lord of Death - and so did the capping Tac squad.

Martel732 wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

We're factoring that out. Given skill as equal, then rate the BA.

it doesnt help that many of the worst marine players play red marines....

BA are better than....... Sisters(?). Maybe not.

Sorry, but as a BA player I have to say that on a competitive scene there is no way for BA to do well. BA just dont have the versatility to cover all of their bases.

Even if you use a net-list for BA, it won't work anywhere but the meta is was made for. In metas that have smaller armies Droplists might work amazingly, but that same list would bite the dust to any Tau gunline.

This is mostly from experience using the same list and trying it out in different metas. I took a list that was undefeated in my local meta and used it at WGC, where it did horribly.

Just my 2c.

Lucarikx

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BA special HQs are fething terrible for the points. I don't what 40K universe you beamed in from, but even Mephiston is rather dubious now. The poor guy can't reliably beat up any schlub with a 2+ save.

As I mentioned before, Biomancy is the thing that makes him insane. Without it, he might be less than decent. If you roll Iron Arm, Endurance and Warp Speed, and keep Endurance up and running with the librarian, he has Feel No Pain, Relentless, and It Will Not Die. He has a toughness of six, initiative of SEVEN, and FIVE fragging wounds! Truly something that even Calgar is jealous of. He's not an Eternal Warrior, but who gives a damn when the only thing that slays him is Instant Death, Jaws, or the rest a handful of special weapons/spells that nullifies his saves, what - at least what I've observed - are quite uncommon.

Also, I just had a match with BA today, and ate half a table with Mephiston. Right, he was traveling with a Stormraven, got immobilised when on the table, so he got back to the reserve again. In the next turn, I crashed him nearby the opponent's objective, ran towards the cappers and actually emptied the whole place during the 6th-7th round. He had Life Leech, Endurance and Haemorrhage as psychic powers from Biomancy, and I constantly rolled successfully the Endurance, thus being nigh-impossible to kill, and he just got the wounds back from It Will Not Die and Life Leech by sucking a few marines from the Tactical squad ranks. The gang of Vulkan He'stan simply disappeared in front of the Lord of Death - and so did the capping Tac squad.

Got some bad news for ya: Mephiston only gets two psychic powers if you switch out for book powers. That makes biomancy considerably less attractive. Even if you get the powers you are looking for, for every game like you list, there are three where he gets shot off the table with little effect. Is that worth 250 pts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lucarikx wrote:
BA are better than....... Sisters(?). Maybe not.

Sorry, but as a BA player I have to say that on a competitive scene there is no way for BA to do well. I took a list that was undefeated in my local meta and used it at WGC, where it did horribly. BA just dont have the versatility to cover all of their bases.

Even if you use a net-list for BA, it won't work anywhere but the meta is was made for. In metas that have smaller armies Droplists might work amazingly, but that same list would bite the dust to any Tau gunline.

Just my 2c.

Lucarikx

I think your experience sums up every "big fish in a little pond" player that talks smack about how its all gonna be different for them because they have THE BA list. They get exposed to something like WGC, and just can't understand what happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

We're factoring that out. Given skill as equal, then rate the BA.

it doesnt help that many of the worst marine players play red marines....

Is that true?

Martel732 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

it doesnt help that many of the worst marine players play red marines....

Is that true?

It is my experience, since 3rd edition. The bloodrage marines seem to appeal to the new players who dont really know much about the game and charge headlong into better assault units. Players who build an army around big and shiny but expensive questionable units. Taking too many big HQs, too many upgrades, too many death company. Players who dont know how to take advantage of their fast vehicles.

There are some good blood angels players.
There are bad players who play other armies
There are bad players who play other marine armies

But in my experience, the largest percentage of bad marine players are BA players in a way that has little to do with the competitiveness of their codex.

Epic LOL. Too many big HQ, too many upgrades, too many DC sums up the "how to win with BA" primer in my area as well." When I unpack my armies they often ask "are you proxying vanilla?".

These are they same guys that brag about their success with BA but don't seem to know what a triple helldrake or flying circus list is referring to.

Martel732 wrote:

Got some bad news for ya: Mephiston only gets two psychic powers if you switch out for book powers. That makes biomancy considerably less attractive. Even if you get the powers you are looking for, for every game like you list, there are three where he gets shot off the table with little effect. Is that worth 250 pts?

And what would those "three" be?
The solution for POSSIBLY preventing him getting shot off, is to put him in a Land Raider... or Stormraven, as I did an earlier game I mentioned about.

But hold on: are you speaking about this in a competitive level? If that's the case, yes, I'd pick another HQ. And another codex. But that would destroy this debate right away.
Take note, that I am not a powerplayer nor a tournament-level tablecrusher.

Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

Exalbaru wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Sisters of Battle, maybe? You've still got a couple good options, but you're an entirely dedicated assault army in an edition that hates assault. Even Orks have Lootas and Space Wolves have Long Fangs. You've got... Um... Bolt guns?

Even then sisters have exorcists which are pretty epic, I do hate scrolling through a PDF codex though.

Print it

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

Except this is the tactics threads, and we ste having a serious discussion over who the blood angels are better in a tactical setting. We're not talking about who are BA better in a casual, non tactica, friendly setting.

6th edition does favor shooting, but it also favors maneuverability. BAs big advantage over other marine codecies is the speed in which they do their work. Maybe the question should be, who are the BA faster than...and if it even matters.

 Voidwraith wrote:
6th edition does favor shooting, but it also favors maneuverability. BAs big advantage over other marine codecies is the speed in which they do their work. Maybe the question should be, who are the BA faster than...and if it even matters.

That is an interesting way to look at things. In general BA are faster than most armies. Does this matter though? Well... That depends on two things: enemy deployment/positioning & objective marker locations.

Speed allows an army to position it's forces to gain the maximum amoun of leverage against a minimal amount of resistance. If an enemy deploys or positions in such a way that units are isolated, then the BA have an opportunity to take advantage of that through their mobility. So that is a strength.

40k missions are won by accumulating more victory points than the enemy. In most missions the bulk of VPs are obtained by controling objectives. More accessible objectives will be more hotly contested. If an objective marker is needed for victory points and is easily accessible, then the location of objective markers will determine where the fighting happens. So, objective placement is important because they control the flow of combat.

More mobile armies are more able to access objectives. It the aforementioned premises are accepted and some objectives are easily accessible to both armies while others are only eaaily accessible to one army, then the flow of fighting will be concentrated around those easily accessible objectives, which leaves the other objectives less defended for the army that can access them. So, mobility provides a benefit to BA here too. Objectives placed away from the flow of battle are likely to fall into the hands of the BA unless they face a force with superior speed that can take and hold them

There are some advantages to BA mobility

Speed on it's own is worth little without being able to put out some damage. The new kids on the block are especially maneuverable with their battle focus and jsj shinanigans, so bot only are they hard to catch they'll shoot you off the table whilst you chase them.

D

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

Except this is the tactics threads, and we ste having a serious discussion over who the blood angels are better in a tactical setting. We're not talking about who are BA better in a casual, non tactica, friendly setting.

My mistake. Move this if necessary.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

Except this is the tactics threads, and we ste having a serious discussion over who the blood angels are better in a tactical setting. We're not talking about who are BA better in a casual, non tactica, friendly setting.

Mhmm, if you want to play casually then the tactics forum doesn't really even matter.

In casual, "grab whatever you think is cool" the best list is arbitrary. It's fine to play that way, but it's just not relevant to this analysis.

As stated above, BA have speed. But it's useless speed when our damage output is subpar, and the units we have are already premium priced. The "new" speed of Eldar makes our fast vehicals a joke. Unfortunately we are just suffering the effects of a 5th edition codex that translated in the worst possibly way into 6th.

The most success I have had with BA is in cheap unit spam. Which is now negated due to the abundance of helldrakes and ap3 weaponry or pseudo rending.

At this point there is really nothing that the BA can do that another codex can't do better. It's really a shame to see one of the best original codex chapters relegated to such obsolescence and impotence.

BA are better than any army who can't have wings on their shoulder pads.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can almost get 10 BA Devestators with Missile Launchers for the cost of 5 BT Terminators with dual CMLs and Tank Hunters. If the problem with BA is that everything is expensive then the problem with BT is that everything is expensive and most of it isn't that good. Dual CML Terminators are solid, but that's it. If you think BA Troops choices suck, check out the BT Codex. If you think BA have issues getting into CC, try Templars. If you think BA HQ choices are expensive for little gain, try Templars. BA have better Troops, better HQs, better Fast Attack and better Heavy Support than Black Templars. The dual CML/Assault Cannon loadouts for Terminators singlehandedly carries the Elite slot to victory for the Templars, but not by much.

I guess the issue to consider when debating what's better between BA and BT is that most of the options are bad. So saying that BA have better troops because BA marines have Red Thirst and BT marines move 3" towards the enemy when they lose a model sounds goofy when you consider that marines are terrible. If we weren't looking at allies at all, then I think I'd rather have BT Troops because you can include a heavy weapon for every 5 marines and if you want ablative wounds then you can include cheap scouts instead of expensive marines which are already terrible.

Really the debate to me isn't, "which is less terrible" so much as, "understanding that both armies are terrible, who can mitigate the bad to include the good" and if I get small marine squads with heavy weapons and BT termies then I'm happy. Also Land Speeder Typhoons (with the Typhoon missile launcher) are 20 pts cheaper in a BT army than any other SM army I'm aware of and the Land Raiders are the exact same. The only drawback I see is that there aren't any flyers and every BT list is going to look similar in order to maximize the good choices and negate the bad.

I haven't seen a non-Death Company and Mephiston army in a while, but iirc BA can take Land Raiders as a dedicated transport for marines, so to optimize BA I guess you take 3 Heavy Support choices and as many Land Raiders as you can cram into the points limit. I'm sure there are some armies who won't have a good answer to this, but I think most armies could deal with this even if they didn't know it was coming.

Either way, I think it's agreed that BA are pretty much bottom of the heap. I think a more interesting question might have been "What are BA good at?" or "What are good options in the BA army?" because the original question is very open and has drawn arguments which defend marines or who focus on the bad aspects of a 5th ed codex rather than what is still good (or at least better than vanilla marines). Also it's fruitless to discuss allies in a debate like this, but if you're considering how to actually play BA then you'll probably have a lot more success by including allies. Basically what I'm trying to ask is, "How does one salvage the BA codex?"

fuhrmaaj wrote:
Basically what I'm trying to ask is, "How does one salvage the BA codex?"

I think this should be the conversation as well. I think it is far more productive for those interested in BA to look at what positives the BA offer and how to build a pure BA list against the rest of the field rather than figuring out whether BA or some other codex is less bad.

It's more of an academic exercise. There are plenty of pure BA lists and unit suggestions on these boards. The BA are quite popular, but their codex is pretty lame right now.

Most of the BA positives are situational, which leaves the BA dependent upon being able to tailor lists.

BA still has some advantages that other (Marine) armies don't.

- Assault Marines as troops (fast moving)
- Other JP units that are rather useful (Sang Guard)
- Land Raiders as transports
- Red Thirst
- Fragiosos

I'm not saying that they are worth the higher point cost, but our codex still has some nice tricks that can be used.

 soomemafia wrote:
BA still has some advantages that other (Marine) armies don't.

- Assault Marines as troops (fast moving)
- Other JP units that are rather useful (Sang Guard)
- Land Raiders as transports
- Red Thirst
- Fragiosos

I'm not saying that they are worth the higher point cost, but our codex still has some nice tricks that can be used.

I would add priests to that list as well. I don't think there are as many armies with such wide ranging access to FNP.

^True enough.

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

BT are not necessarly worse then BA. It's all opinion. I think BT are better because my play style says so. Sister which is usually said to be 40k expert wasn't even listed. It's because they have powerful units that stand out just like BA. BT have the emperors champion which can wreck. They can take thousand of LRC if they want. There chaplains are good. The best available tech marine. Can give almost everything a special skill. Every gets a special vow. (rage to whole army). Move forward when shot. Heck there fearless in CC. Ya there more expensive but in certain builds they can sucessed just like sisters and just like BA.

 ravengatorfan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

BT are not necessarly worse then BA. It's all opinion. I think BT are better because my play style says so. Sister which is usually said to be 40k expert wasn't even listed. It's because they have powerful units that stand out just like BA. BT have the emperors champion which can wreck. They can take thousand of LRC if they want. There chaplains are good. The best available tech marine. Can give almost everything a special skill. Every gets a special vow. (rage to whole army). Move forward when shot. Heck there fearless in CC. Ya there more expensive but in certain builds they can sucessed just like sisters and just like BA.

BA get divination, a couple good codex powers, and FNP tricks. Not sure if that's better than the BT stuff or not.

Ya and I can make a huge bubble were no magic effects me and a better deny the witch. On all units.

Okay we might asxwell go through the slots and identify the best units are try to identify synergies that we can utilise in creating a TAC list.

Hq is easy.
Librarians have always looked good as a hq for BA, sure they're cheaper in other codexes now but I think the BA libby still represents the best value for points and as also noted he gives us access to divination.

So how best to utilise this Hq and what he brings to the table? I haven't tried this specifically but I'm looking at Dev squads. Specifically Las-Devs in a bastion with ML Devs on the roof (second squad needs extra bodies to sponge wounds as units on a rooftop can be target) add a priest (perhaps manning the quad) and you've got a preety solid firebase, I know you can only givedivination to one squad at a time but still.

Yhe reason I picked Devs is I find our Heavy slots very uninspiring, a
our tanks and normal dread seem too fragile, yeah the fast is nice but it comes at a premium which I dont think is worth it...wellmaybe on the pred but I think returns will be beteer on the Devs. If I was gonna fill the last heavy slot I'd probably go for the Whirlwind for the ignores ckver at range.

Anyone else got suggestions for a HQ and how to synigise them?

D

 ravengatorfan wrote:
Ya and I can make a huge bubble were no magic effects me and a better deny the witch. On all units.

Abhor the Witch is horrible, though. In a similar vein, if the Emperor's Champion "wrecks" stuff you're probably fighting basic kooks, because a 2 wound dude with an AP3 weapon isn't exactly impressive.

Troops-wise, Templars don't get grenades and more or less are forced to take Chaplains if you're on foot unless the unit in question is a lasplas-squad or if it's in a Drop Pod.

Speaking of lasplas-squads, they're guaranteed to run off objectives if they take a casualty unless you go to ground, in which case they're firing snap shots. Blood Angels can get objective-camping Scouts, can't they?

fuhrmaaj wrote:
BA are better than any army who can't have wings on their shoulder pads.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can almost get 10 BA Devestators with Missile Launchers for the cost of 5 BT Terminators with dual CMLs and Tank Hunters. If the problem with BA is that everything is expensive then the problem with BT is that everything is expensive and most of it isn't that good. Dual CML Terminators are solid, but that's it. If you think BA Troops choices suck, check out the BT Codex. If you think BA have issues getting into CC, try Templars. If you think BA HQ choices are expensive for little gain, try Templars. BA have better Troops, better HQs, better Fast Attack and better Heavy Support than Black Templars. The dual CML/Assault Cannon loadouts for Terminators singlehandedly carries the Elite slot to victory for the Templars, but not by much.

I guess the issue to consider when debating what's better between BA and BT is that most of the options are bad. So saying that BA have better troops because BA marines have Red Thirst and BT marines move 3" towards the enemy when they lose a model sounds goofy when you consider that marines are terrible. If we weren't looking at allies at all, then I think I'd rather have BT Troops because you can include a heavy weapon for every 5 marines and if you want ablative wounds then you can include cheap scouts instead of expensive marines which are already terrible.

Really the debate to me isn't, "which is less terrible" so much as, "understanding that both armies are terrible, who can mitigate the bad to include the good" and if I get small marine squads with heavy weapons and BT termies then I'm happy. Also Land Speeder Typhoons (with the Typhoon missile launcher) are 20 pts cheaper in a BT army than any other SM army I'm aware of and the Land Raiders are the exact same. The only drawback I see is that there aren't any flyers and every BT list is going to look similar in order to maximize the good choices and negate the bad.

I haven't seen a non-Death Company and Mephiston army in a while, but iirc BA can take Land Raiders as a dedicated transport for marines, so to optimize BA I guess you take 3 Heavy Support choices and as many Land Raiders as you can cram into the points limit. I'm sure there are some armies who won't have a good answer to this, but I think most armies could deal with this even if they didn't know it was coming.

Either way, I think it's agreed that BA are pretty much bottom of the heap. I think a more interesting question might have been "What are BA good at?" or "What are good options in the BA army?" because the original question is very open and has drawn arguments which defend marines or who focus on the bad aspects of a 5th ed codex rather than what is still good (or at least better than vanilla marines). Also it's fruitless to discuss allies in a debate like this, but if you're considering how to actually play BA then you'll probably have a lot more success by including allies. Basically what I'm trying to ask is, "How does one salvage the BA codex?"

The reasons I'm saying that BA Troops are better are:
For 2 points more than a BT Marine (18 vs 16) you get both types of grenades, a jump pack and swap the option of a heavy weapon for an additional assault weapon. You also get to take 2 specials and a special CCW; Templars get 1 special weapon and a choice of either a melee weapon or heavy weapon, and no combi- or Infernus options.

For objective-camping you get 5 sniper Scouts with cloaks and a Missile Launcher for a comparable cost to a lasplas; you'll be weaker offensively, but you won't run off your vantage point in terrain or on an objective just because you lost one model.

The best comparison, however, is a Drop Pod squad. Without gear, 10 Crusaders in a Drop Pod is 190 points. 10 Assault Marines in a Drop Pod is, correct me if I'm wrong, 180 points. BA get Grenades, Templars don't. Same deal with other transports, except Templars don't ever use Razorbacks and rarely use Rhinoes.

Lastly, Righteous Zeal really isn't a positive unless you're running a Blob with a Chaplain; being forced closer to the enemy during their turn means that you're more often than not HELPING them get the charge when they shoot you, or moving down from a ruin where you'd parked your Lascannon.

Well, for such a "Bad Codex" as Martel keeps putting it out there, the BA players did well at the last Throne of Skulls, only losing out to the Tyrranids (once again) on best painted army. of the BA players, one won all 5 games, another won 4.

Of course, yanks like Martel will immediately reply that "The British don't play as competitively" but that theory does not hold water.

Well throne of skulls isn't as competitive as many of the US tournaments. You can see that by the scoring style (not to mention the inclusion of the relic).
I believe BA won the January ToS, with a rather standard list. But one tournament win, especially with such a format as ToS isn't enough to take them out of the "gak tier" codex rank.

Actually, I'm very interested to know how these winning lists beat Tau or Eldar. Assuming they played Tau or Eldar. Also, not being able to overcome Tyranids is not horribly encouraging.

Well, the scoring style does not phase me, I don't have a problem with a well painted army being rewarded with bonus points, or getting points for being a good opponent.

Once again, I've never had a problem facing CSM, Nids, Eldar, or Orks with them, Necrons can be difficult, but in games with them it usually comes down to last man standing in my meta. To be fair I was a WO2, and have been wargaming since the early 80's, maybe it is an experience thing.

All I can say is "A poor workman blames their tools"

"All I can say is "A poor workman blames their tools"

I thought you had experience with GW games. I find it a bit hard to believe that you've "never had a problem" with the new Eldar codex. I've been reduced down to 2 models in 3 turns by that codex.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I'm very interested to know how these winning lists beat Tau or Eldar. Assuming they played Tau or Eldar. Also, not being able to overcome Tyranids is not horribly encouraging.

Whats giving you grief in the eldar codex?

The fact that the Eldar show up, roll 80 S6 attacks, and I pick up all my models. That's giving me grief. Oh, I'm sorry, 80 S6 attacks that reroll to hit. And have buffed armor. Or whatever the farseer rolled up that day.

Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot. Or ignore cover and shoot pathifinders/farseers/autarchs with the mantle. Or hurt monstrous creatures on a 2+.

Vanguard vets. Drop down, only scatter d6 then charge and kill a unit. Or krak grenade a wave serpent to death. No serpent shields on the rear armour.

Baal Pred. Outflank or scout and ruin an ADL/wraithguard squad/anything that relies on cover.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective/s as far towards theirs as possible. reduce the distance to travel before violence can occur. Leap on them. Profit.
ASM's can then be nearer to wreck vehicles.

All of this can be done in the first two turns.

As has been said before, mephiston punks wraithknights/wraithlords.

Eldar got new shiny in the codex, but they still fight the same. So use your 36" range vindicator and your predator with the ability to hide out of LOS and then move and fire all of your guns and the fnp bubbles you can put everywhere.
Cancel all of your opponants s6 shooting by leaving corbulo out the front as a tempting target and getting them to shoot him instead.

The only marine army I've ever had trouble with was BA - my eldar run rings round the rest of the slower sm's.

Any Eldar unit with the shuriken rule, a scatter laser, or a star cannon pretty much. There's too far too many for the BA to take them out fast enough in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective as far towards theirs as possible.

That's making the assumption that I'm playing a drop list. Sounds great until the drop list runs into chaos demons or Tyranids. Remember, I'm not tailoring here as I have no opportunity to tailor.

And the melta trick only really works if you get to go first. Once the serpents start moving, they are almost pointless to shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In Mephiston going in a TAC list? I think not. Or how about Vanguard vets? It's not just the Eldar. It's the fact that the Eldar are really effective against BA TAC lists. And can make them go away frustratingly quickly.

All my lists don't have Corbulo, either. Are you proposing that they should?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well, the scoring style does not phase me, I don't have a problem with a well painted army being rewarded with bonus points, or getting points for being a good opponent.

Once again, I've never had a problem facing CSM, Nids, Eldar, or Orks with them, Necrons can be difficult, but in games with them it usually comes down to last man standing in my meta. To be fair I was a WO2, and have been wargaming since the early 80's, maybe it is an experience thing.

All I can say is "A poor workman blames their tools"

Never had a problem with triple helldrake? Not once? Oh, let me guess, no one in your meta has triple helldrake.

Martel732 wrote:
Any Eldar unit with the shuriken rule, a scatter laser, or a star cannon pretty much. There's too far too many for the BA to take them out fast enough in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective as far towards theirs as possible.

That's making the assumption that I'm playing a drop list. Sounds great until the drop list runs into chaos demons or Tyranids. Remember, I'm not tailoring here as I have no opportunity to tailor.

And the melta trick only really works if you get to go first. Once the serpents start moving, they are almost pointless to shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In Mephiston going in a TAC list? I think not. Or how about Vanguard vets? It's not just the Eldar. It's the fact that the Eldar are really effective against BA TAC lists. And can make them go away frustratingly quickly.

All my lists don't have Corbulo, either. Are you proposing that they should?

Corbulo is a nightmare to get through. It's not worth shooting at him with anything less than st8. He tanks way too much and can get his re-roll if he needs to. He also laughs at shuriken ammo on 6's and starcannons. He can make a unit almost unkillable unless you're using serious points.

The melta sternguard works well against nids too - they have mc's to shoot with them ansd the rest have and hellfire ammo.

When the wave serpents are moving, they get a 4+ cover save. The serpent shield doesn't cover the rear armour and they're only armour 10 so even your bolters will hurt them - use the cover ignoring ammo and a couple of melta shots in the rear armour and they'll drop so much faster than people expect.

How much are 5 vanguard vets - are they less than 315pts? thats what they could take out wave serpent wise in the turn they drop. They are only limited against nid's - against any other army, the ability to drop down and Krak something to death straight away is nasty.









Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rather than true TAC, I'd take a list with the ability to ignore cover/beat 3+ armour.

Accept that horde armies will give you a tough match and then hammer everyone else

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot. Or ignore cover and shoot pathifinders/farseers/autarchs with the mantle. Or hurt monstrous creatures on a 2+.

Vanguard vets. Drop down, only scatter d6 then charge and kill a unit. Or krak grenade a wave serpent to death. No serpent shields on the rear armour.

Baal Pred. Outflank or scout and ruin an ADL/wraithguard squad/anything that relies on cover.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective/s as far towards theirs as possible. reduce the distance to travel before violence can occur. Leap on them. Profit.
ASM's can then be nearer to wreck vehicles.

All of this can be done in the first two turns.

As has been said before, mephiston punks wraithknights/wraithlords.

Eldar got new shiny in the codex, but they still fight the same. So use your 36" range vindicator and your predator with the ability to hide out of LOS and then move and fire all of your guns and the fnp bubbles you can put everywhere.
Cancel all of your opponants s6 shooting by leaving corbulo out the front as a tempting target and getting them to shoot him instead.

The only marine army I've ever had trouble with was BA - my eldar run rings round the rest of the slower sm's.

So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

2.) Your 10 Vanguard kill one serpent when they drop and then likely get shot to death and/or moved away from.

I'm not saying it is an auto loss but a lot of your tactics assume better than average rolling, and stupidity by your opponent (Corbulo.... Eldar Move, different model is closest, open fire.)

My marine army is painted a non standard color scheme specifically so that I'm able to run whichever codex compliments the list I'm building. That being said I choose to run BA marines 95% of the time.

One point needs to be made now though, I nearly NEVER run them without allies.

BA troops suck, they are expensive, die like any other shmoe 3+, are expensive, are filled with player traps (DoA and sang preists are begging you to make tactical mistakes or over spend on units), they are also expensive.

Hq choices are poor. The only ones I ever use are a libby (which DA and other 6th ed codexs do much cheaper) and Meph.

There is more but that is enough to make a pure BA list have an uphill battle.

Things they do well in my experience and there may be others But these are units that work well with my play style:

Fragnaughts in pods. 1 is an auto take IMO. They deal decent to awesome damage depending on the enemy, but the enemy Must devote a substantial amount of firepower to remove it from him deployment zone or he'll continue his rampage.

Fast vindicators. 36" threat range str 10 ap 2 pie plate is pretty damn good on an AV 13 platform. These fall into the must kill right now category

Death company... most lists I see people make mistakes with overspending one them. 2 to 3 power axes in 6 to 8 man squad is all you need. And no chaplin, they are expensive, gives the MCs and ICs you want to kill a reprive while they kill him, and you dont need the rerolls. You really don't.

Land raiders as DT. A few other books have them too but it can be helpfull if running vindis and SRs to some AV 14. Plus they are counter meta ATM.

Death company blender dread from a storm raven. This one is a lot more situational but if you have meph in a raven try one of these out. They are less prone to uslessness on crashing. The ignore shaken and stun results help if your SR gets shot down. They chew anything 3+ or worse
They do tarpit other non power fist 2+ troops well too. Broadsides, chaos terms, etc.

All that said BA needs massed small arms fire and higher wound per point scoring units. This can be done very well with allies.

When saying Blood angels and competitive in the same sentance, the words "with allied" should be In the one following it. If you dont like allies dont whine about competitiveness of the book. A large portion of top lists use allies, BA should too.

Tldr: use the good units BA have and ally away the weaknesses.

Breng77 wrote:
So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

2.) Your 10 Vanguard kill one serpent when they drop and then likely get shot to death and/or moved away from.

I'm not saying it is an auto loss but a lot of your tactics assume better than average rolling, and stupidity by your opponent (Corbulo.... Eldar Move, different model is closest, open fire.)

1) Why only 5 shots? rapid firing bolters glance rear armour on 6's so go for hull points too. Put some combi meltas in there give them a couple of melta shots to the rear armour (where there is no serpent shield). One should be saved, the other will almost auto pen (needs a 5+ on 2d6)and then you have to roll a 4+ to kill the vehicle and probably half the squad inside if its wrecked. Its a gamble I'd take every time.

2)can you not take vanguards in 5's as a distraction unit?

Drop pods negate eldar speed. Why go fast when your enemy drops out of the sky wherever he likes. Which is always behind tanks.

Breng77 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot. Or ignore cover and shoot pathifinders/farseers/autarchs with the mantle. Or hurt monstrous creatures on a 2+.

So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

The shield doesnt work on rear armor, so they drop down, 5 melta shots. 3.3 hits, 3.2 pens(if in melta range), cover saves 1.6 pens. Still enough to likely wreck with +2 on the damage roll.

Getting 2 WS rear armor in melta range is tough, but shooting them in the rear is the way to go.

If you get first turn, theres not even a cover save. They have to move to claim jink - rear armour on turn one is just straight AV10 with no protection.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well, for such a "Bad Codex" as Martel keeps putting it out there, the BA players did well at the last Throne of Skulls, only losing out to the Tyrranids (once again) on best painted army. of the BA players, one won all 5 games, another won 4.

Of course, yanks like Martel will immediately reply that "The British don't play as competitively" but that theory does not hold water.

I'm curious what the list entailed... what are the chances they were running Guard or Tau allies?

Take two Tau and call me in the morning.

Is it just me or do these list adjustments being suggested to counter Eldar seem like suicide against CSM? If every opponent I fought were Eldar, I'd consider this a lot more valuable.

As serious suggestions (without suggesting Meph in a storm raven for the lols) in a tac list, I'd still have 2 pods, sternguard in one, a dread in the other, Corbulo and a baal pred with the flamestorm.

Corbulo is great against strength 7 or less - los anything st8 onto the nearest man behind you. Hes arguably better at tanking st7> than the 2+ re-reollable cover save the mantle of the eldar gives you because it doesn't care about cover ignoring weapons. He's also good for slowing down heldrakes - they can vector strike, but if they flame him he'll tank the lot and probably not die. You may not even lose a man from it at all.
Baal Pred with the flamestorm is still effective as its av13 - its not going to be stopped by the normal adl interceptor weapons. It also melts everything behind an adl. If you get first turn, scout move forwards and burn, if you go second outflank.
Sternguard with melta in a pod are useful as turn one, you can come down and break your opponants favourite toy - its like playing chess - swap them for your opponants 'queen'.
Look at what his army has got and kill the biggest threat.
If you miss on the deep strike, use corbulo's re-roll to try the scatter dice again - it's another chance to roll a hit.

An av13 dread in a pod with a melta is also useful as it can maybe melta a tank and then forces your opponant to react to it - next turn it'll charge and no-one likes BA dreadnoughts charging them. It'll attract an inordinate amount of firepower.
You can also drop it down facing the front of an adl and maybe make your opponant waste his interceptor. AV 13 is nice on a dread Then at the start of your shooting phase, turn it to shoot whatever you like.
Just make sure that you're nowhere near high fire power weaponry (out of los is good too).

None of that can be stopped by a heldrake.
Anyway, thats what I'd do

Martel732 wrote:
Take two Tau and call me in the morning.

Is it just me or do these list adjustments being suggested to counter Eldar seem like suicide against CSM? If every opponent I fought were Eldar, I'd consider this a lot more valuable.

Mhmm, I play Wolves and while Pods might be great for helping with Serpent Spam, I find that Rhinos give me more tactical flexibility against most opponents. That's the problem with making a TAC list these days though, you'll get screwed versus certain armies.

It's funny, but I have a list that has a) sternguard w/corbulo and libby in a pod b) fragnought in pod and c) Baal with flamestorm.

I've won some with this list, but one issue this list has is good bubble wrapping. I've proxyed plasmas for the meltas and found that it doesn't help that much. Most folks where I play has a ton of experience against drop pod marines. Also, I think I have a better win rate with my shooty list. I think a lot of that is when I play people that haven't seen it before, they don't expect BA to run away and shoot.

Also, if we are talking Eldar, there is often no single stand out unit that is an obvious target for sternguard. Plus, sternguard are very expensive, and so "swapping" is rarely a good plan, as they are also your most dangerous unit.

Also, the heldrake is not there to stop any of the stuff you listed. They are there to hoover up your scoring units. Which I notice you haven't discussed yet.

Martel732 wrote:
It's funny, but I have a list that has a) sternguard w/corbulo and libby in a pod b) fragnought in pod and c) Baal with flamestorm.

I've won some with this list, but one issue this list has is good bubble wrapping. I've proxyed plasmas for the meltas and found that it doesn't help that much. Most folks where I play has a ton of experience against drop pod marines.

Also, if we are talking Eldar, there is often no single stand out unit that is an obvious target for sternguard. Plus, sternguard are very expensive, and so "swapping" is rarely a good plan, as they are also your most dangerous unit.

Also, the heldrake is not there to stop any of the stuff you listed. They are there to hoover up your scoring units. Which I notice you haven't discussed yet.

I like your list
With the eldar you could go for a wraithknight or whatever wave serpents they've got. Or take out their long range guns and then out range them - apart from fire prisms and serpent shields theres not that much with a massive range. Or go for the prize and nail the farseer - eldar players really hate losing them early.

In general
Ruin your opponants ground game on turn 1 or 2 - Heldrakes can't take objectives. I'd keep corbulo on the ground and the libby too - there's no point sacrificing more than you need to with a suicide drop. This means you can advance behind corbulo and use him as a human 'fnp givin' shield
Scoring units for the BA suffer from the same problems as normal marines and they're overpriced, but they can get fnp which means you won't die as fast as normal marines. You only need one man to hold an objective. And if you've got a dread or a baal predator in your opponants backline then that'll take some of the heavy weapons off them.



Turn one, they'll go for your sternguard. Turn 2, they'll have to go for a baal and a dread, turn three you're hopefully where you need to be

I still seem to run out of models really quickly against Tau or Eldar. I had one turn against Eldar where he killed two AV 11 vehicles and 19 meqs. It's really hard to get anywhere against that. He can just ignore the dreadnought at that point because all your marines are dead.

"Turn one, they'll go for your sternguard. Turn 2, they'll have to go for a baal and a dread, turn three you're hopefully where you need to be"

Uhhh that's what I've been trying to say. They kill a *lot* more than that each turn.

Ouch - that sounds like he rolled well. Theres not much you can do about hot dice. So make him pay - nail his troops in return. You're back on equal footing if you stop him scoring too - If you've got first blood (sternguard are good at that), keep your warlord safe and thats sometimes enough.

I fought to a draw in my last game (I was chaos against BA) at the end of the game there were no troops left - he got first blood, I got slay the warlord.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Ouch - that sounds like he rolled well. Theres not much you can do about hot dice. So make him pay - nail his troops in return. You're back on equal footing if you stop him scoring too - If you've got first blood, keep your warlord safe and thats sometimes enough.

I fought to a draw in my last game (I was chaos against BA) at the end of the game there were no troops left - he got first blood, I got slay the warlord.

No, he rolled about average, perhaps a bit lower than average. Have you *read* the Eldar codex? The guy killed me down to 2 models in 3 turns. I can't hit back that hard. They roll out of bed and have double marines' firepower without trying hard.

No I have never read the eldar codex - I make all my rules up as I go along and walk round with my eyes shut

What was his list?

He had two squad of warwalkers, a wraithknight, some rangers, a waveserpent of firedragons, a wave serpent of dire avengers, a farseer, some dudes on bikes that I guess were warlocks? Do Eldar still do that? Basically, the scatter lasers twin linking everything else on top of being a broken (imo) weapon is nuts. I was hoping they'd nerf the scatter laser. That was dumb on my part.

Basically, there's too much stuff for a sternguard and a fragnought to engage. Come to think of it, I think he did roll above average with the rangers. But still. The firepower the Eldar can field is insane.

I fought another Eldar list with my shooty list and that went 2 turns before we called it. It's very hard to win with no models.

I have played BA since early to mid 3rd. After a few games of 6th, I decided to shelve them for all of 6th. Close combat armies are not competitive, we are over paying for powers that got worse, and our only flyer is over priced.

Yay! One other person that realizes the Stormraven is overpriced.

Close Combat Armies can be competitive.
The problem is that we don't bring enough CC-power on the table.

My biggest dislike with the BA is in the friendly games.
While my other armies can have an okay list in 5 to 10 minutes I need to spend a minimum of 30 minutes on a BA-list to make sure I don't give away a free game.

Martel732 wrote:
Yay! One other person that realizes the Stormraven is overpriced.

Are there people who deny that it's overpriced?

Aah wait! It's not overpriced.
You just have to pay for a gazillion bonuses you don't want.
Only twice have I made the error of using it as a transport: First time it didn't show till turn 4 or 5 and the second time it got shot down with 200pnt troops in it.

Oh, yeah. There's a lot of members of the "Stormraven is the second best flier in the game" crowd. Oh, yeah, then there's the "you're not using it right" crowd.

*For its price*, its flimsier than the Vendetta and heldrake by far, and maybe even some AV 11 fliers.

Basically all I want out of a BA flier is three skyfire multi-meltas. That's it. Keep everything else. Three multimeltas so I can melt heldrakes. That's all I really care about.

But for only 2 captains worth of points you get:
-Flyer
-AV12 all around, 3HP, BS4
-FOUR!!! Blood Strike Missiles
-12 model transport
-A Dreadnought transporter!
-POTMS, Skies of Blood ánd an Assault Vehicle
-TL Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannon
-The option on superb wargear, such as a single TL-Lascannon, Hurricane Bolters or TL-Multi Melta!

And I even forget the best part: Immunity against Melta.

What is not to love about it?

The Hull Point/point ratio. And reserves.

Dreadnoughts have transporters called drop pods. That have drop pod assault.

Martel732 wrote:
He had two squad of warwalkers, a wraithknight, some rangers, a waveserpent of firedragons, a wave serpent of dire avengers, a farseer, some dudes on bikes that I guess were warlocks? Do Eldar still do that? Basically, the scatter lasers twin linking everything else on top of being a broken (imo) weapon is nuts. I was hoping they'd nerf the scatter laser. That was dumb on my part.

sounds like you got cheated. Scatter Lasers only twinlink another weapon on the same model. So a warwalker could fire its scatter laser and then twin link its other weapon. But not everything.

No, no that's the way he was doing it. I meant "everything else on the model" Which is still not an ability that weapon needed. The war walkers still melt everything they are pointed at, just like the 4th edition versions, except now they don't need to be babysat by a farseer for guidance. The farseer is free to go do something else obnoxious. It's really disheartening.

Martel732 wrote:
No, no that's the way he was doing it. I meant "everything else on the model" Which is still not an ability that weapon needed. The war walkers still melt everything they are pointed at, just like the 4th edition versions, except now they don't need to be babysat by a farseer for guidance. The farseer is free to go do something else obnoxious. It's really disheartening.

I think the problem is that everything in the Eldar Codex is now BS 4 and a lot of it is already twin linked. It is now the autohit codex.

PredaKhaine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

2.) Your 10 Vanguard kill one serpent when they drop and then likely get shot to death and/or moved away from.

I'm not saying it is an auto loss but a lot of your tactics assume better than average rolling, and stupidity by your opponent (Corbulo.... Eldar Move, different model is closest, open fire.)

1) Why only 5 shots? rapid firing bolters glance rear armour on 6's so go for hull points too. Put some combi meltas in there give them a couple of melta shots to the rear armour (where there is no serpent shield). One should be saved, the other will almost auto pen (needs a 5+ on 2d6)and then you have to roll a 4+ to kill the vehicle and probably half the squad inside if its wrecked. Its a gamble I'd take every time.

2)can you not take vanguards in 5's as a distraction unit?

Drop pods negate eldar speed. Why go fast when your enemy drops out of the sky wherever he likes. Which is always behind tanks.

1.) So yeah...why am I giving you rear armor shots again? Very easy to deny you rear armor by keeping my back to a table edge. So no bolters 5 Melta shots against serpent shields (unless I have a reason to shoot them before you drop in, at which point I at worst get 4+ cover.

2.) Sure you can, they just aren't killing a serpent then I boost away or shoot them to death.

Drop pods do the opposite of negate eldar speed against a skilled player. You drop...which is never behind my tanks, blow your load, I move away with my superior speed now you are on foot, getting hammered by serpent shooting. Now if you go full pods all with Plasma sterngaurd, multiple plasma and melta guns maybe if you go first you kill a few serpents by glancing them to death. But 10 melta guns...kill 1 serpent on average.

Essentially the assumption that you drop in and get rear armor is a bad assumption. The assumption that you get rear armor on 2 tanks with the same pod is a terrible assumption. Like I said reliant on your opponent making mistakes.

Martel732 wrote:
He had two squad of warwalkers, a wraithknight, some rangers, a waveserpent of firedragons, a wave serpent of dire avengers, a farseer, some dudes on bikes that I guess were warlocks? Do Eldar still do that? Basically, the scatter lasers twin linking everything else on top of being a broken (imo) weapon is nuts. I was hoping they'd nerf the scatter laser. That was dumb on my part.

Basically, there's too much stuff for a sternguard and a fragnought to engage. Come to think of it, I think he did roll above average with the rangers. But still. The firepower the Eldar can field is insane.

I fought another Eldar list with my shooty list and that went 2 turns before we called it. It's very hard to win with no models.

On the plus side, Eldar are very fragile, but this is mitigated by things like Serpent Spam and Fortune/Protect/Conceal. I haven't really come up with a solution yet, but I'll just say I'm glad that my Rune Priests are still ...

Breng77 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

2.) Your 10 Vanguard kill one serpent when they drop and then likely get shot to death and/or moved away from.

I'm not saying it is an auto loss but a lot of your tactics assume better than average rolling, and stupidity by your opponent (Corbulo.... Eldar Move, different model is closest, open fire.)

1) Why only 5 shots? rapid firing bolters glance rear armour on 6's so go for hull points too. Put some combi meltas in there give them a couple of melta shots to the rear armour (where there is no serpent shield). One should be saved, the other will almost auto pen (needs a 5+ on 2d6)and then you have to roll a 4+ to kill the vehicle and probably half the squad inside if its wrecked. Its a gamble I'd take every time.

2)can you not take vanguards in 5's as a distraction unit?

Drop pods negate eldar speed. Why go fast when your enemy drops out of the sky wherever he likes. Which is always behind tanks.

1.) So yeah...why am I giving you rear armor shots again? Very easy to deny you rear armor by keeping my back to a table edge. So no bolters 5 Melta shots against serpent shields (unless I have a reason to shoot them before you drop in, at which point I at worst get 4+ cover.

2.) Sure you can, they just aren't killing a serpent then I boost away or shoot them to death.

Drop pods do the opposite of negate eldar speed against a skilled player. You drop...which is never behind my tanks, blow your load, I move away with my superior speed now you are on foot, getting hammered by serpent shooting. Now if you go full pods all with Plasma sterngaurd, multiple plasma and melta guns maybe if you go first you kill a few serpents by glancing them to death. But 10 melta guns...kill 1 serpent on average.

Essentially the assumption that you drop in and get rear armor is a bad assumption. The assumption that you get rear armor on 2 tanks with the same pod is a terrible assumption. Like I said reliant on your opponent making mistakes.

It's the same reason drop pod DC are somewhat suspect. Well, that and you just volunteered to be double-tapped. A lot.

So, now that Martel has hijacked this thread, is it now an anti-Eldar discussion?

Breng77 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

2.) Your 10 Vanguard kill one serpent when they drop and then likely get shot to death and/or moved away from.

I'm not saying it is an auto loss but a lot of your tactics assume better than average rolling, and stupidity by your opponent (Corbulo.... Eldar Move, different model is closest, open fire.)

1) Why only 5 shots? rapid firing bolters glance rear armour on 6's so go for hull points too. Put some combi meltas in there give them a couple of melta shots to the rear armour (where there is no serpent shield). One should be saved, the other will almost auto pen (needs a 5+ on 2d6)and then you have to roll a 4+ to kill the vehicle and probably half the squad inside if its wrecked. Its a gamble I'd take every time.

2)can you not take vanguards in 5's as a distraction unit?

Drop pods negate eldar speed. Why go fast when your enemy drops out of the sky wherever he likes. Which is always behind tanks.

1.) So yeah...why am I giving you rear armor shots again? Very easy to deny you rear armor by keeping my back to a table edge. So no bolters 5 Melta shots against serpent shields (unless I have a reason to shoot them before you drop in, at which point I at worst get 4+ cover.

2.) Sure you can, they just aren't killing a serpent then I boost away or shoot them to death.

Drop pods do the opposite of negate eldar speed against a skilled player. You drop...which is never behind my tanks, blow your load, I move away with my superior speed now you are on foot, getting hammered by serpent shooting. Now if you go full pods all with Plasma sterngaurd, multiple plasma and melta guns maybe if you go first you kill a few serpents by glancing them to death. But 10 melta guns...kill 1 serpent on average.

Essentially the assumption that you drop in and get rear armor is a bad assumption. The assumption that you get rear armor on 2 tanks with the same pod is a terrible assumption. Like I said reliant on your opponent making mistakes.

Ok - turn 1 I drop in the dread instead. Then on turn two land behind whatever wave serpent is full of your favourite things as you're flying forwards with a pod of sternguard unless your plan is to spend the entire game parked at the back?

Vanguard - 5 krak grenades hitting on 3+ so I'll hit with 3 to 4. Thats not bad odds of getting a pen or two. Then you can boost away and turn and shoot (as long as you're not stunned or shaken and have decent guns left) Fire the shield too if you like - it's poor against marines becuase of the no ap and then I can shoot the tank more effectively next turn.
Now you aren't where you wanted to be because you had to turn and deal with 5 men.

The two tanks was a suggestion for target priority not an assumption.

But tell you what - my next game against BA, I'll just declare I auto win with my eldar at the start of turn one (after warlord traits and objectives etc).
I'll let you know how that goes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Martel with ref to the list he posted
I'd take out his rangers with the fragnought and take out the dire avengers in the wave serpent with the sternguard.
Burn the bikes (if they're guardians and therefore troops)with the baal. If not them, burn his farseer and whoever is stood next to him. Its ID if it wounds (unless its eldrad)
He's got no troops then and if you went first, you've got first blood. Keep your army further back and make sure corbulo is the nearest of your ground troops - that negates half his shooting (literally, only the fire dragons and the wraithknight can reliably hurt him - keep a squad with him and los onto your squad anything st8 and up)and dealing with your dropped down units will slow him down.
Or go for broke - combat squad the sternguard and take out all the warwalkers or try for the wraithknight.
Don't worry too much about the fire dragons - they'll fly up, leap out and kill one thing (if you've got vehicles) then you get to kill them and the wave serpent.


Eldar need to support each unit - they can all only do one thing. Dire Avengers can't hurt a dread. Fire Dragons are only really useful as meltacide if they're 5 strong. If theres 10, you'll lose a troops choice maybe (unless they have a farseer with them). Then you get to charge them and they won't beat a squad in cc.

Anyway, I'm done. I think that may be the longest post I've ever written on Dakka

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, now that Martel has hijacked this thread, is it now an anti-Eldar discussion?

Whatever. It seems we got an answer for the original thread: BT, maybe. It seems foolish to fight over whether BT or BA is the worst list in the game.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well, for such a "Bad Codex" as Martel keeps putting it out there, the BA players did well at the last Throne of Skulls, only losing out to the Tyrranids (once again) on best painted army. of the BA players, one won all 5 games, another won 4.

Of course, yanks like Martel will immediately reply that "The British don't play as competitively" but that theory does not hold water.

Also, pretty sure this was the derailing moment. The BA *are* bad, this thread was discussing how bad.

PredaKhaine wrote:

@ Martel with ref to the list he posted
I'd take out his rangers with the fragnought and take out the dire avengers in the wave serpent with the sternguard.
Burn the bikes (if they're guardians and therefore troops)with the baal. If not them, burn his farseer and whoever is stood next to him. Its ID if it wounds (unless its eldrad)
He's got no troops then and if you went first, you've got first blood. Keep your army further back and make sure corbulo is the nearest of your ground troops - that negates half his shooting (literally, only the fire dragons and the wraithknight can reliably hurt him - keep a squad with him and los onto your squad anything st8 and up)and dealing with your dropped down units will slow him down.
Or go for broke - combat squad the sternguard and take out all the warwalkers or try for the wraithknight.
Don't worry too much about the fire dragons - they'll fly up, leap out and kill one thing (if you've got vehicles) then you get to kill them and the wave serpent.


Eldar need to support each unit - they can all only do one thing. Dire Avengers can't hurt a dread. Fire Dragons are only really useful as meltacide if they're 5 strong. If theres 10, you'll lose a troops choice maybe (unless they have a farseer with them). Then you get to charge them and they won't beat a squad in cc.

Anyway, I'm done. I think that may be the longest post I've ever written on Dakka

I'll let Breng reply to that, because the amount of assumptions being made in this post is astronomical.

I never said auto win, but you keep making assupmtions about what your opponent is going to do.

So you drop the Dread and thus I must speed foreward and give you rear shots. Wait, I stayed along the side of the table and my rear is still against a table edge?!

As for serpents being bad against marines they average ~3 kills each(2 with FNP), not accounting for rends. I could also you know drop the dire avengers or guardians out to shoot the vanguard.

Sure you can hope your sterngaurd come in when they best kill things but If I have already wiped out a bunch of your stuff before you kill a few serpents I'm ok with it.

Again not an auto win, I just don't expect what your suggesting to be all that effective against serpent spam eldar.

Can we just go back on topic instead?
@ Martel - Try playing as eldar and stopping those units perfectly. By 'take out' I mean make them useless - the da aren't good outside of the transport, the rangers can't hurt a fragioso that ignores cover and the baal burns guardian jetbikes with no armour or cover.

I really hope you win soon Martel.

I've beaten Eldar. Once. And it took a lot of Eldar mistakes to make it happen, too. Just as Breng suggested it would. But against well-played lists, it has not been close. Even once.

For the record, I don't fear any BA lists, even when using BA. I'm pretty certain I could take some Eldar and massacre a BA list. Of course, that might be due to my extreme familiarity with what BA units are (and aren't) capable of. I did swap lists with a CSM player once and tabled him in 4 turns. It's so easy to fail as the BA. That's my one rock solid data point: CSM are indeed much better than BA. Not very enlightening, I know.

More to the point, I don't fear your fragnought or your sternguard, because they are going to come in, do their set amount of damage, and then get obliterated. And then you're back to relying on BA troops. I've done this to vanilla marine players and BA players. If I were an Eldar player, I wouldn't fear it either.

I think the thing I am seeing here is BA can win in 2 cases.

1.) Bringing Allies.

2.) When you are a better player/outplay than your opponent.

Things like getting Jetbikes caught by a baall pred is a mistake by the eldar player. Jetbikes are much faster and thus should be able to avoid the flamer.

I agree rangers are bad. But what does the Fragiouso do when its targets are serpents and Wraithknights? Wait unitl you kill a serpent to come in, but now the sternguard need to come in...but then they don't kill the serpents effectively...

Do I think I can make a TAC BA list that has a chance of beating Serpent spam, probably. But it will be tough, and probably use allies.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, now that Martel has hijacked this thread, is it now an anti-Eldar discussion?

Anytime Blood Angels are mentioned on this website, he swoops in to tell everyone how bad they are. He cant win with BA and wants to convince everyone else that they are bad to. Instead of working to make them better, he tries to convince everyone they are bad. It's easier that way. That way it's not his fault he can't win with BA, its the codex's problem.

Nothing personal here. I'm just struck by the enormity of negative BA posts coming from one guy. It amazes me. If any marine army has all the tools to defeat Eldar it is the BA. They have everything you need. Speed to counter the Eldar mobility. Armor 13 to negate the plethora of str 6-7 strength shots everywhere. Outflanking tanks to get rear shots on Eldar skimmers. Fast moving flame template weapons. And even if you don't want to take all that they still can take allies that help mitigate a lot of what the Eldar, even with Tau, can do.

To the OP who are the BA better than? Anybody they want to be. 6th is such a RPS edition that you can tailor lists, with allies, to have a great chance against anything. The problem is, and even the top tourney guys will tell you this, you can't plan against everything. You have to make some educated guesses as to the tourney field and hope you don't pull a non common list you might struggle against.

DarthDiggler wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, now that Martel has hijacked this thread, is it now an anti-Eldar discussion?

Anytime Blood Angels are mentioned on this website, he swoops in to tell everyone how bad they are. He cant win with BA and wants to convince everyone else that they are bad to. Instead of working to make them better, he tries to convince everyone they are bad. It's easier that way. That way it's not his fault he can't win with BA, its the codex's problem.

Nothing personal here. I'm just struck by the enormity of negative BA posts coming from one guy. It amazes me. If any marine army has all the tools to defeat Eldar it is the BA. They have everything you need. Speed to counter the Eldar mobility. Armor 13 to negate the plethora of str 6-7 strength shots everywhere. Outflanking tanks to get rear shots on Eldar skimmers. Fast moving flame template weapons. And even if you don't want to take all that they still can take allies that help mitigate a lot of what the Eldar, even with Tau, can do.

To the OP who are the BA better than? Anybody they want to be. 6th is such a RPS edition that you can tailor lists, with allies, to have a great chance against anything. The problem is, and even the top tourney guys will tell you this, you can't plan against everything. You have to make some educated guesses as to the tourney field and hope you don't pull a non common list you might struggle against.

Maybe you're right. But the situation is very frustrating, and I'm certainly not dumping more money for allies.

And what you write about BA is true on a forum, but never quite seems to pan out in reality. The BA are always short that tank for outflanking or the speed unit you were counting on just got evaporated by Eldar shooting. Yes, the BA have everything you need on paper. But when you field the list, there's never enough plastic on the table to absorb all the firepower.

Funnily enough, I tied against a Mechdar player the other day with pure BA. Would have won too if Corbulo didn't die like a girl to overwatch.

Then again, I rolled really well too.

I think the trick to winning with BA is not allies but exploiting the fact that many people rate BA so lowly competitively. In my LGS I'm the only BA player it's had in years, so many people don't expect the damage potential of some of our best units(Fragnoughts, Sternguard w/ Prescience, unkillable ATK bikes). It's not something to rely on, but it's helped me out for a while.

Again, just my 2c.

Lucarikx

DarthDiggler wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, now that Martel has hijacked this thread, is it now an anti-Eldar discussion?

Anytime Blood Angels are mentioned on this website, he swoops in to tell everyone how bad they are. He cant win with BA and wants to convince everyone else that they are bad to. Instead of working to make them better, he tries to convince everyone they are bad. It's easier that way. That way it's not his fault he can't win with BA, its the codex's problem.

Nothing personal here. I'm just struck by the enormity of negative BA posts coming from one guy. It amazes me. If any marine army has all the tools to defeat Eldar it is the BA. They have everything you need. Speed to counter the Eldar mobility. Armor 13 to negate the plethora of str 6-7 strength shots everywhere. Outflanking tanks to get rear shots on Eldar skimmers. Fast moving flame template weapons. And even if you don't want to take all that they still can take allies that help mitigate a lot of what the Eldar, even with Tau, can do.

To the OP who are the BA better than? Anybody they want to be. 6th is such a RPS edition that you can tailor lists, with allies, to have a great chance against anything. The problem is, and even the top tourney guys will tell you this, you can't plan against everything. You have to make some educated guesses as to the tourney field and hope you don't pull a non common list you might struggle against.

There was a time not long ago when I felt the same about our friend here, but it's not fully how you say it. Even tough I don't like all of his comments as a BA-player, I still check them out because behind that negativity is also a lot of good advice. He has the truth of BA and more than once has that truth helped me to become a better player.

I've been following this conversation for a while (read: since the beginning) and I think it's sort of stupid how this is now all about comparing how army X (mostly Eldars) would do against BA.
In a way it relates to this subject, but I still think that wondering how many glances can Sternguard make on a Wave Serpent is irrelevant. (Oh well... I believe all conversations on internet happen to get distracted, this message serves as an example).

Now, about BA:
As I mentioned before, BA still has some solid advantages against different armies.
It may not be the fastest of armies, but it still has a good threatening range with most units.
There are armies with more durability, but T4 3+ armor models with capacity for FnP is not bad.
A lot of armies with more damage output, but we have 2 unique vehicles with front AV13 and template weapon to bring the pain.

Martel732 wrote:
The Hull Point/point ratio. And reserves.
Dreadnoughts have transporters called drop pods. That have drop pod assault.

I was being sarcastic

Kangodo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Hull Point/point ratio. And reserves.
Dreadnoughts have transporters called drop pods. That have drop pod assault.

I was being sarcastic

Sorry; I thought that. But then I answered anyway for some reason.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Anytime Blood Angels are mentioned on this website, he swoops in to tell everyone how bad they are.

Yes.. And every time that someone mentions icecream, I will tell everyone how cold it is.

He cant win with BA and wants to convince everyone else that they are bad to.

He isn't convincing people of anything, he is simply stating the obvious.

Instead of working to make them better, he tries to convince everyone they are bad. It's easier that way. That way it's not his fault he can't win with BA, its the codex's problem.

But it IS a problem with the codex.
You need a tailored list to have a chance against any TAC-list.
Unless you are playing against bad players with terrible lists.. But that's shouldn't be an argument for BA being good.

Think the problem with BA overall is that they are average. They don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do it particularly poorly. This becomes an issue with a take all comers list because you end up at a disadvantage in some area of the game.


BA assault better than some armies, but worse than the top assault armies. I'd rank them maybe 5th or 6th best in assault(if built fully assaulty, but they are closer to the 7th best army than to the armies that are better than they are.)

BA shoot better than some armies, but worst than the top armies (I'd rate them 7th or 8th here, but again closer to those worse than they are than the best armies.)

I'd rate them 5th or 6th in mobility, but closer to the armies immediately below the, than those ahead of them.

I'd rate them 5th or 6th in durability (not as far behind their betters here)

So they are average, they have no big weakness, but also no super strength to leverage in their favor. Throw that in with a relatively high price tag and you get an average army.

Blood Angels have to pay for searchlights.

Their vehicles don't come with lights.

They drive around in the dark without headlights.

With extra fast vehicles.

 soomemafia wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So, now that Martel has hijacked this thread, is it now an anti-Eldar discussion?

Anytime Blood Angels are mentioned on this website, he swoops in to tell everyone how bad they are. He cant win with BA and wants to convince everyone else that they are bad to. Instead of working to make them better, he tries to convince everyone they are bad. It's easier that way. That way it's not his fault he can't win with BA, its the codex's problem.

Nothing personal here. I'm just struck by the enormity of negative BA posts coming from one guy. It amazes me. If any marine army has all the tools to defeat Eldar it is the BA. They have everything you need. Speed to counter the Eldar mobility. Armor 13 to negate the plethora of str 6-7 strength shots everywhere. Outflanking tanks to get rear shots on Eldar skimmers. Fast moving flame template weapons. And even if you don't want to take all that they still can take allies that help mitigate a lot of what the Eldar, even with Tau, can do.

There was a time not long ago when I felt the same about our friend here, but it's not fully how you say it. Even tough I don't like all of his comments as a BA-player, I still check them out because behind that negativity is also a lot of good advice. He has the truth of BA and more than once has that truth helped me to become a better player.

Agreed, I used to think Martel was just a whiner as well because my regular opponent uses Blood Angels and he seemed to do ok. However, I have come to realize that Martel is actually right about the state of BA in a competitive environment (whereas my opponent and I play casually and he knows enough to tailor his list towards Wolves or Nids). People who disagree with him generally are looking at BA from a non-competitive and/or tailored perspective, which is not the point he's trying to make at all.

Breng77 wrote:
Think the problem with BA overall is that they are average. They don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do it particularly poorly. This becomes an issue with a take all comers list because you end up at a disadvantage in some area of the game.

I would change that line to 'below average' and there are just too many things that confuse me.
But I have high hopes that many things will change with the next codex.
Because it really are minor changes that are needed.

When I started I had to pick an army to play.
It was a tough decision, but I got persuaded by the fluff and the images of their HQ's, the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard.
Needless to say I felt crap when I found out how "below average" those models are.
HQ's overcosted and stocked with abilities I don't need.
Both SG and DC-JP way overcosted for what they do.

So now when I don't want to lose really hard I have to take models that any other army can get.
And I don't like that.. Even winning lacks the glory if I cannot field my black company of death or my groups of golden angels.

People everywhere say that the special BA HQ units such as Dante and Mephiston are unplayable because of their high cost and would advise people to run Divination Librarians instead. Prescience is too great a buff to pass up, they say, and the Librarian is an efficient choice. In the following breath, they'll tell you how BA shooting is pretty bad and assault in 6th is even worse. If this is the case, what good is prescience, really? Librarians aren't bad, but I don't feel divination is the force multiplier for BA the way it can be for other armies. How does allowing me the chance to throw a few more 'to wound' dice at a unit trump an ability like Fear of the Darkness, which could force a unit to flee off the table, or shield of sanguinius, which provides mobile cover and is used on the enemies turn, allowing a LVL1 librarian the ability to cast 2 abilities a game turn.

Meanwhile, Dante and Mephiston are pretty amazing. Dante, giving hit and run to whatever unit he's with, debuffing an enemy IC, being pretty amazing in assault despite going at initiative 1, and unlocking Sang Guard as troops, brings a lot to the table. You don't like Sang Guard? Why the heck not? 2+ save, extremely mobile, power weapons, and can be outfitted with plasma pistols or point blank melta...what's not to like? Everyone keeps complaining about how crappy BA troops are. Well here ya go. Sure they're expensive, but that's why you have something nearby giving them FnP. FnP on a 2+ jump unit with power weapons and plasma pistols! I can't believe no one even talks about using these guys. Why the heck do you people play BA anyway?! Red underwear fetishes??!

Mephiston...either you love him or you hate him. I'm not going to go over why his sword being AP3 isn't that big a deal *cough* force weapon *cough*.

I dunno...let's get back to our regularly scheduled rant fest. I'm going to go back to painting an assault squad that I doubt I'll ever play.

Kangodo wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Think the problem with BA overall is that they are average. They don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do it particularly poorly. This becomes an issue with a take all comers list because you end up at a disadvantage in some area of the game.

I would change that line to 'below average' and there are just too many things that confuse me.
But I have high hopes that many things will change with the next codex.
Because it really are minor changes that are needed.

When I started I had to pick an army to play.
It was a tough decision, but I got persuaded by the fluff and the images of their HQ's, the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard.
Needless to say I felt crap when I found out how "below average" those models are.
HQ's overcosted and stocked with abilities I don't need.
Both SG and DC-JP way overcosted for what they do.

So now when I don't want to lose really hard I have to take models that any other army can get.
And I don't like that.. Even winning lacks the glory if I cannot field my black company of death or my groups of golden angels.

Nope they are exactly average, which means they have no strengths, which means they as a full army struggle.

 Voidwraith wrote:
People everywhere say that the special BA HQ units such as Dante and Mephiston are unplayable because of their high cost and would advise people to run Divination Librarians instead. Prescience is too great a buff to pass up, they say, and the Librarian is an efficient choice. In the following breath, they'll tell you how BA shooting is pretty bad and assault in 6th is even worse. If this is the case, what good is prescience, really? Librarians aren't bad, but I don't feel divination is the force multiplier for BA the way it can be for other armies. How does allowing me the chance to throw a few more 'to wound' dice at a unit trump an ability like Fear of the Darkness, which could force a unit to flee off the table, or shield of sanguinius, which provides mobile cover and is used on the enemies turn, allowing a LVL1 librarian the ability to cast 2 abilities a game turn.

Meanwhile, Dante and Mephiston are pretty amazing. Dante, giving hit and run to whatever unit he's with, debuffing an enemy IC, being pretty amazing in assault despite going at initiative 1, and unlocking Sang Guard as troops, brings a lot to the table. You don't like Sang Guard? Why the heck not? 2+ save, extremely mobile, power weapons, and can be outfitted with plasma pistols or point blank melta...what's not to like? Everyone keeps complaining about how crappy BA troops are. Well here ya go. Sure they're expensive, but that's why you have something nearby giving them FnP. FnP on a 2+ jump unit with power weapons and plasma pistols! I can't believe no one even talks about using these guys. Why the heck do you people play BA anyway?! Red underwear fetishes??!

Mephiston...either you love him or you hate him. I'm not going to go over why his sword being AP3 isn't that big a deal *cough* force weapon *cough*.

I dunno...let's get back to our regularly scheduled rant fest. I'm going to go back to painting an assault squad that I doubt I'll ever play.

Sanguinary Guard are decent, but their lack of an invul save is a problem. You're guaranteed to have a low model count, and if the enemy has plasma (or are Eldar) then you're going to be annihilated easily. If AP2 weren't so common these days, they'd be a pretty good solution though.

Kangodo wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Think the problem with BA overall is that they are average. They don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do it particularly poorly. This becomes an issue with a take all comers list because you end up at a disadvantage in some area of the game.

I would change that line to 'below average' and there are just too many things that confuse me.
But I have high hopes that many things will change with the next codex.
Because it really are minor changes that are needed.

When I started I had to pick an army to play.
It was a tough decision, but I got persuaded by the fluff and the images of their HQ's, the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard.
Needless to say I felt crap when I found out how "below average" those models are.
HQ's overcosted and stocked with abilities I don't need.
Both SG and DC-JP way overcosted for what they do.

So now when I don't want to lose really hard I have to take models that any other army can get.
And I don't like that.. Even winning lacks the glory if I cannot field my black company of death or my groups of golden angels.

The DC are so close to being good. But the devil is in the details. Never scores. Must assault to be effective. Transportation options are all flawed. So this means that the DC have multiple points of failure. You can be shot in transit or be spoiling assaulted. For every game they gloriously table a flank, there are two games where the opponent stymies them.

That's just one example. But instead of iconic units that are good, we've dreadnoughts with shotguns, FNP bikers, fast tanks that shoot things, and divination spells. That just doesn't add up to a good functional list. So as Kangodo mentioned, even winning is kind of lackluster with this set up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
People everywhere say that the special BA HQ units such as Dante and Mephiston are unplayable because of their high cost and would advise people to run Divination Librarians instead. Prescience is too great a buff to pass up, they say, and the Librarian is an efficient choice. In the following breath, they'll tell you how BA shooting is pretty bad and assault in 6th is even worse. If this is the case, what good is prescience, really? Librarians aren't bad, but I don't feel divination is the force multiplier for BA the way it can be for other armies. How does allowing me the chance to throw a few more 'to wound' dice at a unit trump an ability like Fear of the Darkness, which could force a unit to flee off the table, or shield of sanguinius, which provides mobile cover and is used on the enemies turn, allowing a LVL1 librarian the ability to cast 2 abilities a game turn.

Meanwhile, Dante and Mephiston are pretty amazing. Dante, giving hit and run to whatever unit he's with, debuffing an enemy IC, being pretty amazing in assault despite going at initiative 1, and unlocking Sang Guard as troops, brings a lot to the table. You don't like Sang Guard? Why the heck not? 2+ save, extremely mobile, power weapons, and can be outfitted with plasma pistols or point blank melta...what's not to like? Everyone keeps complaining about how crappy BA troops are. Well here ya go. Sure they're expensive, but that's why you have something nearby giving them FnP. FnP on a 2+ jump unit with power weapons and plasma pistols! I can't believe no one even talks about using these guys. Why the heck do you people play BA anyway?! Red underwear fetishes??!

Mephiston...either you love him or you hate him. I'm not going to go over why his sword being AP3 isn't that big a deal *cough* force weapon *cough*.

I dunno...let's get back to our regularly scheduled rant fest. I'm going to go back to painting an assault squad that I doubt I'll ever play.

I'd use them if they didn't die like bitches to plasma and other AP2. Other generals are going to focus plasma fire on them them and then just use the regular firepower on the other ASM. It's not a good idea to count on LOS blocking terrain to be in a useful spot on the board, either. The good news: SG close quickly and shred nearly any enemy troop in the game. Bad news: the enemy general only needs one turn of fire to cripple them. The fact that 6th edition is now a game of opponents grabbing huge fistfuls of dice really changes what is good.

I've rethought Mephiston a bit. He's now decent against Eldar. The AP 3 is not really why I don't like him. I don't like him for the same reason the SG aren't that good: too much mid strength AP 2. And he's not a force multiplier like a regular divination librarian.

See, prescience makes regular BA ASM capable of doing the kinds of damage they need to in order to be dangerous. Against many foes, rerolling misses increases damage out put by 50%! And you can reroll shooting to boot. The problem being that we can't get divination support to each ASM squad. Divination has other excellent powers such as 4++ save and ignoring cover. Fear the darkness and shield of sanguinius are solid as well, and I do use them in some of my lists.

The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

 Voidwraith wrote:
The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

I've never had a problem killing my opponent's SG, and I'm playing BA, which we already determined don't shoot well. The SG have to get close to do anything, and there is more than likely a turn where they are vulnerable, and that's all it takes. I doesn't have to be plasma. It can just be a bunch of pulse rifle fire. Once the 5 guys are down to 2 guys, they are crippled.

Besides, you are talking about a 225 pt HQ and a 50 pt (usually 75) IC to make a 225(?) pt 5-man squad scoring and FNP. That's over 500 pts and you have six T4 W1 models and one T4 W4 model! That's 50 pts/wound! That's why no one talks about taking them.

 ravengatorfan wrote:
I think black Templar can be good. I roll up in my all dedicated land raider crusaders and assault out of them. (I don't do it but it sounds awesome)

The problem is that technically they are not allowed to assault from their assault vehicles. Their Landraiders uses the universal special rule "Assault vehicle". This used to excist in the rule book but doesn't anymore.
And as far as I remember the FAQ says they can't assault from them.

Tragic that the founder of Landraider Crusader can't use their main purpouse.

Blood Angels have sternguard that can gain feel no pain. They also still have devastator's who can also get feel no pain. Terminators with feel no pain? Easier assault units with flamers that can deep strike closer to the enemy? Yeah. They have all that. There's still a decent army.

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

I've never had a problem killing my opponent's SG, and I'm playing BA, which we already determined don't shoot well. The SG have to get close to do anything, and there is more than likely a turn where they are vulnerable, and that's all it takes. I doesn't have to be plasma. It can just be a bunch of pulse rifle fire. Once the 5 guys are down to 2 guys, they are crippled.

Besides, you are talking about a 225 pt HQ and a 50 pt (usually 75) IC to make a 225(?) pt 5-man squad scoring and FNP. That's over 500 pts and you have six T4 W1 models and one T4 W4 model! That's 50 pts/wound! That's why no one talks about taking them.

No, I'm talking about a functional HQ that replaces the generic HQs that people take because they're cheap but by the end of the game, aren't the reason you've won or lost. Also, it's not as if that generic HQ is free. I'm willing to pay the point difference for what Dante can bring.

As for the Sang guard. You're right...225pts for sang guard doesn't work. You need to spend 500-750 pts on sang guard to make them worthwhile. I suppose that's not entirely true. I did get some great results out of the one 250pt squad I ran the last time I played my Blood Angels, the golden ones flying around assaulting and disrupting my opponents troops and remaining effective the entire game. Either way, as with most elite units...one is good, but two or three is always better.

I will give Martel the respect he is due for having tons more experience with BA than I do, and I'm not saying they're a top tier codex in 6th. It's just that things aren't as bleak as everyone is saying, some special characters are worth their points cost, and if you don't like any of the BA special units, why are you still playing them?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Blood Angels have to pay for searchlights.

Their vehicles don't come with lights.

They drive around in the dark without headlights.

With extra fast vehicles.

They like to live dangerously?!

"Who are Blood Angels better than?"

Justin beiber

Nicki Minaj

Xboxne haters

Call of duty

 Vombat wrote:

The problem is that technically they are not allowed to assault from their assault vehicles. Their Landraiders uses the universal special rule "Assault vehicle". This used to excist in the rule book but doesn't anymore.
And as far as I remember the FAQ says they can't assault from them.

Tragic that the founder of Landraider Crusader can't use their main purpouse.

Are you seriously going to tell your opponent that he can't assault from an LRC because of that? You must be very popular.

Listen, this whole thread is ridiculous. I have seen Blood Angels players tear up "competitive" armies, and yes, in 6e. It depends a lot on the player to find his right balance. Just because it isn't a one-click army with an easy build doesn't mean it can't be effective. It means a player has to *gasp* try it out and experiment. Yes, their HQs are expensive, but when was the last time we read "Mephiston is an easy kill"? And Death Company, if you don't dump anlot of points into it, it won't be effective. Once you do, however, tabling is now an option.

Just admit it that trite catchwords like "competitive" and "viable" just mean "easy one-click options like Necrons".

Breng77 wrote:
I think the thing I am seeing here is BA can win in 2 cases.

2.) When you are a better player/outplay than your opponent.

This is the goal always! In a perfectly balanced game this would always be the only way to win.... so no complaining that this is the answer unless you want to play a game that is pay to win.

Things like getting Jetbikes caught by a baall pred is a mistake by the eldar player. Jetbikes are much faster and thus should be able to avoid the flamer.

This is true... but the dakka pred would be able to gun them down easily enough.

I agree rangers are bad. But what does the Fragiouso do when its targets are serpents and Wraithknights? Wait unitl you kill a serpent to come in, but now the sternguard need to come in...but then they don't kill the serpents effectively...

If a frag dred is being used against a WK or a WS then some serious tactical errors have been made. WS should be engaged in CC ideally or at range with devastators. WK should be dealt with through backfield scouts and devastators. Use the right solutions for problems.

Do I think I can make a TAC BA list that has a chance of beating Serpent spam, probably. But it will be tough, and probably use allies.

Yes. It is called use of 1-2 AV 14 vehicles. Once again, TAC lists are all about having an answer for everything, even if it isn't perfect.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

I've never had a problem killing my opponent's SG, and I'm playing BA, which we already determined don't shoot well. The SG have to get close to do anything, and there is more than likely a turn where they are vulnerable, and that's all it takes. I doesn't have to be plasma. It can just be a bunch of pulse rifle fire. Once the 5 guys are down to 2 guys, they are crippled.

Besides, you are talking about a 225 pt HQ and a 50 pt (usually 75) IC to make a 225(?) pt 5-man squad scoring and FNP. That's over 500 pts and you have six T4 W1 models and one T4 W4 model! That's 50 pts/wound! That's why no one talks about taking them.

No, I'm talking about a functional HQ that replaces the generic HQs that people take because they're cheap but by the end of the game, aren't the reason you've won or lost. Also, it's not as if that generic HQ is free. I'm willing to pay the point difference for what Dante can bring.

As for the Sang guard. You're right...225pts for sang guard doesn't work. You need to spend 500-750 pts on sang guard to make them worthwhile. I suppose that's not entirely true. I did get some great results out of the one 250pt squad I ran the last time I played my Blood Angels, the golden ones flying around assaulting and disrupting my opponents troops and remaining effective the entire game. Either way, as with most elite units...one is good, but two or three is always better.

I will give Martel the respect he is due for having tons more experience with BA than I do, and I'm not saying they're a top tier codex in 6th. It's just that things aren't as bleak as everyone is saying, some special characters are worth their points cost, and if you don't like any of the BA special units, why are you still playing them?

Only army I own.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Blood Angels have to pay for searchlights.

Their vehicles don't come with lights.

They drive around in the dark without headlights.

With extra fast vehicles.

no one gives BA points for being intelligent

Ok, guys... I'm not a BA player, but have been a fan since the Angels of Death book back in 2nd edition. I own the new codex and such, so I am familiar with the rules and such. I have a player who is returning to the hobby and joining our group again to game. He really hasn't played much since just before the 6th edition rule set came out. A handful of 6th ed games, we'll say. He is all excited to get going again, and was even polishing off some 1,000 point lists (we have decided to go back down to 1,000 point again to freshen up the meta - been playing a lot of 2k dual force org).

Our meta contains, Space Marines, Chaos Demons, Eldar, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Orks, Tyranids, IG, and now BA. How can I help him get his bearings? What recommendations should I give him to build a good TAC list?

I have read through this forum, so I know there is much debate on the viability of the BA as a whole but I know he does not have the money or interest to pick up a new army. He likes his Blood Angels for many of the same reasons you all do. They're badass (from a fluff and model prespective).

Perhaps this is a different topic and I should start a new post, but I think this works well with the OP. BA are better than what? well, that's kind of a bad way to look at things in 40k, especially since we are in a big RPS edition.

How do I help this guy get back into the swing of things, without getting really discouraged?

I'd make another thread. This one is kind of done I think.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ok, guys... I'm not a BA player, but have been a fan since the Angels of Death book back in 2nd edition. I own the new codex and such, so I am familiar with the rules and such. I have a player who is returning to the hobby and joining our group again to game. He really hasn't played much since just before the 6th edition rule set came out. A handful of 6th ed games, we'll say. He is all excited to get going again, and was even polishing off some 1,000 point lists (we have decided to go back down to 1,000 point again to freshen up the meta - been playing a lot of 2k dual force org).

Our meta contains, Space Marines, Chaos Demons, Eldar, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Orks, Tyranids, IG, and now BA. How can I help him get his bearings? What recommendations should I give him to build a good TAC list?

I have read through this forum, so I know there is much debate on the viability of the BA as a whole but I know he does not have the money or interest to pick up a new army. He likes his Blood Angels for many of the same reasons you all do. They're badass (from a fluff and model prespective).

Perhaps this is a different topic and I should start a new post, but I think this works well with the OP. BA are better than what? well, that's kind of a bad way to look at things in 40k, especially since we are in a big RPS edition.

How do I help this guy get back into the swing of things, without getting really discouraged?

What is your meta like? Mech, Infantry etc..

A solid unit would be a Frag Cannon Dread in a pod. Always causes some damage and is a great model

Another on would be a ADL w/ any gun. This is for AA. If you don't see many fliers, this is not really that useful

A jumper list with some support does fairly well in 1k games.

Heres what I used to run at the beginning of 6th:

Librarian (Shield, Unleash Rage, Jump Pack)

Furioso (Frag Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)

Sanguinary Priest (Jump Pack, Melta Bombs)

ASM (10 man, X2 Melta)

ASM (10 man, X2 Melta)

ASM (10 man, X2 Flamer, Melta Bombs)

Comes out at 1k on the dot.

Hope this helps!

Lucarikx

 warpspider89 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I think the thing I am seeing here is BA can win in 2 cases.

2.) When you are a better player/outplay than your opponent.

This is the goal always! In a perfectly balanced game this would always be the only way to win.... so no complaining that this is the answer unless you want to play a game that is pay to win.

Things like getting Jetbikes caught by a baall pred is a mistake by the eldar player. Jetbikes are much faster and thus should be able to avoid the flamer.

This is true... but the dakka pred would be able to gun them down easily enough.

I agree rangers are bad. But what does the Fragiouso do when its targets are serpents and Wraithknights? Wait unitl you kill a serpent to come in, but now the sternguard need to come in...but then they don't kill the serpents effectively...

If a frag dred is being used against a WK or a WS then some serious tactical errors have been made. WS should be engaged in CC ideally or at range with devastators. WK should be dealt with through backfield scouts and devastators. Use the right solutions for problems.

Do I think I can make a TAC BA list that has a chance of beating Serpent spam, probably. But it will be tough, and probably use allies.

Yes. It is called use of 1-2 AV 14 vehicles. Once again, TAC lists are all about having an answer for everything, even if it isn't perfect.

No the point of #2 was that if skill is even and no one makes mistakes the BA player is likely going to lose. I get the feeling that a lot of the BA players that come on here and give advice do so from a place where they are better than their local players...

as for the other points

A Dakka Pred Kills 2 Jet bikes....Hardly gunning them down easily. Unless it is a Dakka Baal and then you improve to killing 3....

And while you are engaging with the proper tools you have wasted points on improper tools? It is nice to say that x will deal with y, and that works great unitl you have 1 x and I have 8 y, and I target your x, making all your z useless because it cannot deal with y.

2 Land Raiders die pretty easy to Wraithknights and don't kill much....

The issue again is assuming that you will always have answers (bad answers are not answers). Again it is not an auto loss, but it is an uphill fight that requires that you are better than your opponent and make few mistakes if any.

I don't play BA, but I can say that they have not really impressed me in 6th (I have never lost to them, though that is true for any non GK MEQ). The issue becomes that my answers to your units tend to be better than yours are to mine. (I also don't play eldar, but serpent spam is a scarier list than anything BA can field). TO compete at a top level I feel that BA need allies of some sort (this is true for Templars and Vanilla Marines as well.)

1 assuming the enemy will "and the wrong question" is equivalent to assuming that the opposing player will have the right answer.

2. Answers have varying degrees of value. Some hare great "hard counters" and some just work well enough "soft counters". As long as an answer exists it is something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are these hypothetical people doing serpent spam and fielding WK? Sounds like BS to me. Serpent spam is answered by high AV. Simple. It is manageable with the right tools.

I play Eldar & work with my bro on his BA. I'd say I have more experience talking about Eldar & BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you think the purpose of a LR is to slaughter your enemies then I recommend re-evaluating your understanding of the purpose and application of LR.

I play against Eldar almost every game in my FLGS. Ignore the WK, its damage/point ratio is horrible. If it manages to kill 15 marines then the Eldar player must have gotten really lucky.

WS spam isn't that hard to deal with. Like warpspider89 said, high AV works great. You could also just move onto all the objectives and have good positioning(Putting objectives behind LOS blocking terrain, staying in reserve). Your opponent can't win the game if he stays in his transports all the time.

Lucarikx

 warpspider89 wrote:
1 assuming the enemy will "and the wrong question" is equivalent to assuming that the opposing player will have the right answer.

2. Answers have varying degrees of value. Some hare great "hard counters" and some just work well enough "soft counters". As long as an answer exists it is something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are these hypothetical people doing serpent spam and fielding WK? Sounds like BS to me. Serpent spam is answered by high AV. Simple. It is manageable with the right tools.

I play Eldar & work with my bro on his BA. I'd say I have more experience talking about Eldar & BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you think the purpose of a LR is to slaughter your enemies then I recommend re-evaluating your understanding of the purpose and application of LR.

NO the purpose of a land raider is not really to kill stuff, but I find them underwhelming most of the time, and eldar have plenty of answers to them. SO is your BA answer then to play 4 land raiders in hope that you face Serpent spam with no answer, and hope you don't face say FMC daemons who eat your army?

This idea that your army has every anwer and I cannot say, ignore your land raider (or 2) and kill the rest of your army and still win is silly.

FYI I play Daemons mainly and BA have almost NO answers to my army. They don't shoot well enough, don't have the durability/or offensive ability to compete in Close combat, and are far too slow. So if we want to get away from the eldar comparison, BA have much worse match-ups in the Meta than Eldar. Against My current Daemon Build BA are hoping I roll poorly and Make mistakes. Which is what I see happen when they face other top armies played by players of equal or better skill.

It also seems like many are trying to list tailor, sure if I tell you you are playing Serpent spam you can run Land Raiders, and in other match-up they are a giant waste of points.

That is only your opinion. A high armour transport that doesn't take up a slot (more devastators), can fire 2x TL las cannon shots after moving 12 inches, and can quite a bit of block LOS is valuable IMO. Just take in. Practical numbers & use wisely

Except it is not more anything it takes up 200+ points so when taking them (300+ with a unit) you are not in danger of maxing out on slots in the first place.. Not saying it is useless, just very match-up dependent

The ultimate irony of the Blood Angels/Pretty boy chapter is that they are better khornates than the actual world eaters rules wise.

Getting the Icon of fury shoved up my Juggerlord's ass by mephiston was amusing, the Death company crapping all over my bezerkers less so.

Khorne does have some problems in 6th. A lot of them are the same problems the BA have. I think Slannesh and Nurgle marines are better than BA, however.

I have one TAC list with one LR in it. There's a lot of AV 13 in addition. It doesn't seem to do any better or worse than my drop pod/jump marine list. I just loses to/beats different things.

Martel732 wrote:
Khorne does have some problems in 6th. A lot of them are the same problems the BA have. I think Slannesh and Nurgle marines are better than BA, however.

I have one TAC list with one LR in it. There's a lot of AV 13 in addition. It doesn't seem to do any better or worse than my drop pod/jump marine list. I just loses to/beats different things.

Going with a world eaters CSM list is like a costlier, crappier melee Angels list.

With far fewer options and your dreads MUST charge the last guy to shave a hull point (think of how easily this is abused.)

Bezerkers really do suck more with each edition.

I think Sanguinor is the best example of what is wrong with the codex
BS5 without any shooting (except grenades)
WS8 which is way over the top.
A couple of special rules that are unneeded.
And the lack of rules and stats it does need!

The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.

Martel732 wrote:
The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.

He can join Yriel, Maugan Ra, Draigo, Old One Eye, Ahriman, and Warp Talons in the "rules don't match the fluff" club. Yriel because a spear that contains a damn supernova can't go through Terminator armor (a common theme, too many weapons with godlike fluff end up having AP3), Ra because just freaking read about this man and see him be the most confused Phoenix Lord of all on the TT, Draigo because again, this super secret special snowflake guy with a godlike weapon...cannot go through Terminator armor and if you pit him against FW Mortarion he is going down, HARD, Old One Eye because despite all the fluff talking up his healing factor, unkillability, and "costlier than a land raider" price tag...he gives you jack and squat a Meleefex with regen (already a suboptimal build) does not for nearly a hundred points more. Ahriman for being talked up as being the master of sorcerery...and having to roll from the abysmal Tzeentch table first and still costing an obscene amount for something a quartet of Krak missiles will remove from the game in one go. Warp talons for having claws that can cut reality itself...but...are stopped...dead...in their tracks...by Terminator armor...

40k folks, where extra bulky power armor is too hard for anti-tank missiles, matter disrupting blades, contained supernovas, a daemonic servant of the god of war beaten into a sword, a blade wielded by the echo of a PRIMARCH, and claws that can go through REALITY to beat.

Martel732 wrote:
The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.

They should change his 6" aura into IC + Joined unit has +1A.
Really xD Drop the WS and drop his points.
And for the love of God, lower his BS and his points!

Breng77 wrote:
Except it is not more anything it takes up 200+ points so when taking them (300+ with a unit) you are not in danger of maxing out on slots in the first place.. Not saying it is useless, just very match-up dependent

Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.

Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.

Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

Why devastators? I think devs kinda stink myself.

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Kangodo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.

They should change his 6" aura into IC + Joined unit has +1A.
Really xD Drop the WS and drop his points.
And for the love of God, lower his BS and his points!

They just need to allow the Sanguinor to join a squad of Sanguinary guard.

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

I think you miss the point that if I am taking say 2 land raiders + troops + hq that is minimum 730 points. Then you are apparently maxing out slots on devastators which means minimum 420 so 1150 points and you have yet to take anything I would consider scarey. As for or being good against the meta....they are decent at best, they are a waste of points against daemons, not great depending on an eldar build and ok against tau. M

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

That's crazy. Divination is awesome for BA. It affects shooting AND HTH. Tactical squads have actually been more effective than assault squads in many of my games. The canonical BA stuff just sucks too much right now.

Additionally, I don't think there's a "right" way to play BA in 6th edition, except maybe bring as many Tau models as you can, which is a hella-lame solution.

Martel732 wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

That's crazy. Divination is awesome for BA. It affects shooting AND HTH. Tactical squads have actually been more effective than assault squads in many of my games. The canonical BA stuff just sucks too much right now.

Additionally, I don't think there's a "right" way to play BA in 6th edition, except maybe bring as many Tau models as you can, which is a hella-lame solution.

If you're taking Tacs and Libbies, it's probably a better idea to ally with DA but use BA models as a proxy. You'll have the same units for much less points and can give yourself Mastery Level 2 and a Shield Generator for a 3" 4++ bubble with the points you save...

No DA codex :( Maybe I'm just too cheap for this game

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

If you want to say the codex powers are better, I'd like the point out that shield of sanguinus, while very nice, does nothing against helldrakes or flying MCs in HTH.

Martel732 wrote:
If you want to say the codex powers are better, I'd like the point out that shield of sanguinus, while very nice, does nothing against helldrakes or flying MCs in HTH.

True enough, but that doesn't make most people sneer at cover saves when talking 40k tactics. As for the heldrake problem, guess what unit that can be made into troops doesn't care about Baleflamers? Sanguinary Guard.

Flying MCs cause issues all over the place for all kinds of reasons, but it's been my experience that most people deal with them by grounding them with throw away fire, and then killing them with plasma or better weaponry. I like to run a Honor Guard squad with jump-packs and plasma guns for things like this, and the added FnP giving priest is nice as well. Guess who else can be equipped with Plasma. Again...Sanguinary Guard.

I'm not saying just run Sang Guard and you'll win, but hey, just reminding peeps that they're out there.

I love the models and concept for the sanguinary guard. But I imagine as much as I don't care if people use them against me, I imagine the good codices care even less. Like with regular terminator squads, 2 or 3 wounds cripples the unit. Also, I don't even want to think about scatter/star war walkers. This is the BA dilemma: you plug two holes in the dike, but make 3 or 4 new holes. And it's not crazy to imagine running into baleflamers and scatter/star walkers on the same day with the same list.

The real problem is that 3+ and 2+ saves have hit a wall in how much protection they provide. Especially on T4 models.

The amounts of wounds that 6th edition codices generate is what led people down the IG blob led by space marine IC path. Being T4 doesn't really help that much anymore. Having huge amounts of wounds that can't be swept in combat and auto-rally on the table does.

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Tell me why a BA tactical squad is a good choice for a list. What do they bring to the table that is so worthwhile that you cannot gain from 1) scouts or 2) assault squads?

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Tell me why a BA tactical squad is a good choice for a list. What do they bring to the table that is so worthwhile that you cannot gain from 1) scouts or 2) assault squads?

3+ armor is still a lot better than 4+ armor. Yes, the scouts have cover saves, but there are an increasing amount of ways to eliminate cover saves. Plus, I'm not crazy about scout's shooting firepower. I don't find the points I save using scouts to be worth the trade offs.

Tactical squads, unlike assault squads, can do damage at the 9"-24" regime. I find tactical squads really effective against most other troop options after I have demeched them. There are just some models in the game that I don't want to get that close to. Bingo! Tactical squad. Also, for lists where I'm not pushing the entire army forward, tactical squads are logical choices to hang out on objectives and shoot people. It also matters that the boltgun is a much, much better weapon than the bolt pistol.

Basically, tactical squads benefit far more from the rules changes for 6th than the assault squad. It's a function of the assault squad being nerfed than the tactical squad being awesome, which it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

And Stormtalons. Don't forget the Stormtalons.

Breng77 wrote:
I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

Ben Mohile ruled the roost in 5th edition with Vanilla Marines. It's the player more than the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

Bingo! +1

DarthDiggler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

Ben Mohile ruled the roost in 5th edition with Vanilla Marines. It's the player more than the codex.

When he rules the roost with BA in 6th edition, I'll believe you.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

Bingo! +1

If I had another army, I'd drop BA instantly. But divination libbies are still really hot.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

What do you mean with that?
The problem is that this is (one of) the most successful things you can do.. and other armies do that better =(

 Voidwraith wrote:
True enough, but that doesn't make most people sneer at cover saves when talking 40k tactics. As for the heldrake problem, guess what unit that can be made into troops doesn't care about Baleflamers? Sanguinary Guard.

And Deathwing Terminators, which I would take any day over Sanguinary Guard

And there was a whole thread about how Xenos are mopping up Deathwing terminators.

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Tell me why a BA tactical squad is a good choice for a list. What do they bring to the table that is so worthwhile that you cannot gain from 1) scouts or 2) assault squads?

Plasma.

Martel732 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

And Stormtalons. Don't forget the Stormtalons.

I really like Stormtalons myself (I'd love if Wolves could take them!), but I don't see enough love for them out there... and they probably don't fit into the same tier of awesome as TFC, Chapter Tactics and Vulkan.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

Ben Mohile ruled the roost in 5th edition with Vanilla Marines. It's the player more than the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

Bingo! +1

Of course player matters but until ever BA player is Ben Mohlie that argument holds no water. For the average player codex/list matters a lot. Essentially what your saying is that the best player frequently will win. Which is true, but if we look at the average player with BA vs a player of equal skill with say Necrons, or tau. The necron or tau player will win more often than not.

Ben ruling the roost with an army also does not preclude the possibility that he would have done better with a different army.

If your argument is that all books are equal you are dreaming.

It just came to me! The BA are way better than squats! At least nids haven't eaten them all yet!

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

Thanks, the first page is just people saying armies supposedly worse. I see where your coming from (and as someone else pointed out, the lack of storm talons sucks, and makes no sense) however, there apper to still be tonnes of BA players around, and i feel that although they loose a few key things from C:SM they manage to make up for it elsewhere. They can be pretty diverse but everyone runs them the same way, they still have access to awesome tanks, well priced terminators, dreadnought comming out their arse holes and a the ability to slap FNP on most units.

All that said, i don't play tournaments, so i probably don't appreciate the importance of certain, semingly small differences in the greater scheme of thing.

Well, one big difference is that C:SM HQ choices are much better. And they have combat tactics. And thunderfire cannons. And C:SM terminators are actually cheaper for TH/SS.

No longer better than BT or Sisters lol

I was wondering how the hell a 7 page thread about blood angels in tactics got past me... then I realised!

The answer now is no one.

 warpspider89 wrote:
No longer better than BT or Sisters lol

So it seems!

However, now we may be comparable to Tyranids, right?

Btwthisisthreadnecromancyright?

Yes, all hail necromancy!

No, Nids are way better than BA. Nids might be better than C:SM in practice.

No - we can field 1 'MC'... mephiston. And he's an 'MC' without smash!
Also - we have no access to 4pt scoring models if going 'pure'.