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Martel732 wrote:
The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.

He can join Yriel, Maugan Ra, Draigo, Old One Eye, Ahriman, and Warp Talons in the "rules don't match the fluff" club. Yriel because a spear that contains a damn supernova can't go through Terminator armor (a common theme, too many weapons with godlike fluff end up having AP3), Ra because just freaking read about this man and see him be the most confused Phoenix Lord of all on the TT, Draigo because again, this super secret special snowflake guy with a godlike weapon...cannot go through Terminator armor and if you pit him against FW Mortarion he is going down, HARD, Old One Eye because despite all the fluff talking up his healing factor, unkillability, and "costlier than a land raider" price tag...he gives you jack and squat a Meleefex with regen (already a suboptimal build) does not for nearly a hundred points more. Ahriman for being talked up as being the master of sorcerery...and having to roll from the abysmal Tzeentch table first and still costing an obscene amount for something a quartet of Krak missiles will remove from the game in one go. Warp talons for having claws that can cut reality itself...but...are stopped...dead...in their tracks...by Terminator armor...

40k folks, where extra bulky power armor is too hard for anti-tank missiles, matter disrupting blades, contained supernovas, a daemonic servant of the god of war beaten into a sword, a blade wielded by the echo of a PRIMARCH, and claws that can go through REALITY to beat.

Martel732 wrote:
The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.

They should change his 6" aura into IC + Joined unit has +1A.
Really xD Drop the WS and drop his points.
And for the love of God, lower his BS and his points!

Breng77 wrote:
Except it is not more anything it takes up 200+ points so when taking them (300+ with a unit) you are not in danger of maxing out on slots in the first place.. Not saying it is useless, just very match-up dependent

Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.

Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.

Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

Why devastators? I think devs kinda stink myself.

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Kangodo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.

They should change his 6" aura into IC + Joined unit has +1A.
Really xD Drop the WS and drop his points.
And for the love of God, lower his BS and his points!

They just need to allow the Sanguinor to join a squad of Sanguinary guard.

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

I think you miss the point that if I am taking say 2 land raiders + troops + hq that is minimum 730 points. Then you are apparently maxing out slots on devastators which means minimum 420 so 1150 points and you have yet to take anything I would consider scarey. As for or being good against the meta....they are decent at best, they are a waste of points against daemons, not great depending on an eldar build and ok against tau. M

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

That's crazy. Divination is awesome for BA. It affects shooting AND HTH. Tactical squads have actually been more effective than assault squads in many of my games. The canonical BA stuff just sucks too much right now.

Additionally, I don't think there's a "right" way to play BA in 6th edition, except maybe bring as many Tau models as you can, which is a hella-lame solution.

Martel732 wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Clearly my point was missed about how it, unlike with DA or vanilla, does not occupy a HS slot, which is critical for BA so that they can take more devastators.
Nor is it match dependant since it is powerful against the current S6-7 heavy situation that is the current meta. If it is favourable vs. the meta then it is beneficial generally more so than beneficial specifically.
Further, TL-LC are solid anti-flier anti-MC - something BA are typically weaker against.

I think you miss an important point!
If I want to take a Librarian with Divination, two Tactical Squads, a Land Raider and Devastator Squads, I am better off taking another army with better and more special rules and cheaper models.

Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

That's crazy. Divination is awesome for BA. It affects shooting AND HTH. Tactical squads have actually been more effective than assault squads in many of my games. The canonical BA stuff just sucks too much right now.

Additionally, I don't think there's a "right" way to play BA in 6th edition, except maybe bring as many Tau models as you can, which is a hella-lame solution.

If you're taking Tacs and Libbies, it's probably a better idea to ally with DA but use BA models as a proxy. You'll have the same units for much less points and can give yourself Mastery Level 2 and a Shield Generator for a 3" 4++ bubble with the points you save...

No DA codex :( Maybe I'm just too cheap for this game

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

If you want to say the codex powers are better, I'd like the point out that shield of sanguinus, while very nice, does nothing against helldrakes or flying MCs in HTH.

Martel732 wrote:
If you want to say the codex powers are better, I'd like the point out that shield of sanguinus, while very nice, does nothing against helldrakes or flying MCs in HTH.

True enough, but that doesn't make most people sneer at cover saves when talking 40k tactics. As for the heldrake problem, guess what unit that can be made into troops doesn't care about Baleflamers? Sanguinary Guard.

Flying MCs cause issues all over the place for all kinds of reasons, but it's been my experience that most people deal with them by grounding them with throw away fire, and then killing them with plasma or better weaponry. I like to run a Honor Guard squad with jump-packs and plasma guns for things like this, and the added FnP giving priest is nice as well. Guess who else can be equipped with Plasma. Again...Sanguinary Guard.

I'm not saying just run Sang Guard and you'll win, but hey, just reminding peeps that they're out there.

I love the models and concept for the sanguinary guard. But I imagine as much as I don't care if people use them against me, I imagine the good codices care even less. Like with regular terminator squads, 2 or 3 wounds cripples the unit. Also, I don't even want to think about scatter/star war walkers. This is the BA dilemma: you plug two holes in the dike, but make 3 or 4 new holes. And it's not crazy to imagine running into baleflamers and scatter/star walkers on the same day with the same list.

The real problem is that 3+ and 2+ saves have hit a wall in how much protection they provide. Especially on T4 models.

The amounts of wounds that 6th edition codices generate is what led people down the IG blob led by space marine IC path. Being T4 doesn't really help that much anymore. Having huge amounts of wounds that can't be swept in combat and auto-rally on the table does.

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Tell me why a BA tactical squad is a good choice for a list. What do they bring to the table that is so worthwhile that you cannot gain from 1) scouts or 2) assault squads?

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Tell me why a BA tactical squad is a good choice for a list. What do they bring to the table that is so worthwhile that you cannot gain from 1) scouts or 2) assault squads?

3+ armor is still a lot better than 4+ armor. Yes, the scouts have cover saves, but there are an increasing amount of ways to eliminate cover saves. Plus, I'm not crazy about scout's shooting firepower. I don't find the points I save using scouts to be worth the trade offs.

Tactical squads, unlike assault squads, can do damage at the 9"-24" regime. I find tactical squads really effective against most other troop options after I have demeched them. There are just some models in the game that I don't want to get that close to. Bingo! Tactical squad. Also, for lists where I'm not pushing the entire army forward, tactical squads are logical choices to hang out on objectives and shoot people. It also matters that the boltgun is a much, much better weapon than the bolt pistol.

Basically, tactical squads benefit far more from the rules changes for 6th than the assault squad. It's a function of the assault squad being nerfed than the tactical squad being awesome, which it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

And Stormtalons. Don't forget the Stormtalons.

Breng77 wrote:
I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

Ben Mohile ruled the roost in 5th edition with Vanilla Marines. It's the player more than the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

Bingo! +1

DarthDiggler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

Ben Mohile ruled the roost in 5th edition with Vanilla Marines. It's the player more than the codex.

When he rules the roost with BA in 6th edition, I'll believe you.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

Bingo! +1

If I had another army, I'd drop BA instantly. But divination libbies are still really hot.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

What do you mean with that?
The problem is that this is (one of) the most successful things you can do.. and other armies do that better =(

 Voidwraith wrote:
True enough, but that doesn't make most people sneer at cover saves when talking 40k tactics. As for the heldrake problem, guess what unit that can be made into troops doesn't care about Baleflamers? Sanguinary Guard.

And Deathwing Terminators, which I would take any day over Sanguinary Guard

And there was a whole thread about how Xenos are mopping up Deathwing terminators.

 warpspider89 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Never take BA tactical squads or BA librarians with divination. If you are doing that, then you aren't playing BA right IMO. Go play DA in that case.

You take those things if you want to have a shot at winning.
And that's really wrong; Our strongest lists are better if you take another army.

Tell me why a BA tactical squad is a good choice for a list. What do they bring to the table that is so worthwhile that you cannot gain from 1) scouts or 2) assault squads?

Plasma.

Martel732 wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

And Stormtalons. Don't forget the Stormtalons.

I really like Stormtalons myself (I'd love if Wolves could take them!), but I don't see enough love for them out there... and they probably don't fit into the same tier of awesome as TFC, Chapter Tactics and Vulkan.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I guess maybe what this comes down to is that BA have the 5th Ed Vanilla marine problem (unless you use allies), in that probably their most competitive builds can be done better using a different MEQ book. With the possible exception of an av 13-14 wall list. Which despite some bad match-ups could potentially do ok. Even then it is not on par with the better meta lists, but at least it has a chance to hold up against them.

Ben Mohile ruled the roost in 5th edition with Vanilla Marines. It's the player more than the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Maybe it's not a coincidence that everyeone who says Div Libbys are the way to go are also the people who suggest that abandoning BA is the best advice for winning.

Bingo! +1

Of course player matters but until ever BA player is Ben Mohlie that argument holds no water. For the average player codex/list matters a lot. Essentially what your saying is that the best player frequently will win. Which is true, but if we look at the average player with BA vs a player of equal skill with say Necrons, or tau. The necron or tau player will win more often than not.

Ben ruling the roost with an army also does not preclude the possibility that he would have done better with a different army.

If your argument is that all books are equal you are dreaming.

It just came to me! The BA are way better than squats! At least nids haven't eaten them all yet!

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 stargasm wrote:

I dont see why people say BA are so hard done by , they are basically just space marines in all respects but some units may become angrier, plus they have cheaper heavy weapons, more dreads, bad-ass librariansand priests! am i missing something here? Anyway, on with the advice.

Umm you might want to read the thread then, even just the first page. Codex Marines are a better army though because they get Thunderfire Cannons, Chapter Tactics, Vulkan, etc.

Thanks, the first page is just people saying armies supposedly worse. I see where your coming from (and as someone else pointed out, the lack of storm talons sucks, and makes no sense) however, there apper to still be tonnes of BA players around, and i feel that although they loose a few key things from C:SM they manage to make up for it elsewhere. They can be pretty diverse but everyone runs them the same way, they still have access to awesome tanks, well priced terminators, dreadnought comming out their arse holes and a the ability to slap FNP on most units.

All that said, i don't play tournaments, so i probably don't appreciate the importance of certain, semingly small differences in the greater scheme of thing.