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Breng77 wrote:
Think the problem with BA overall is that they are average. They don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do it particularly poorly. This becomes an issue with a take all comers list because you end up at a disadvantage in some area of the game.

I would change that line to 'below average' and there are just too many things that confuse me.
But I have high hopes that many things will change with the next codex.
Because it really are minor changes that are needed.

When I started I had to pick an army to play.
It was a tough decision, but I got persuaded by the fluff and the images of their HQ's, the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard.
Needless to say I felt crap when I found out how "below average" those models are.
HQ's overcosted and stocked with abilities I don't need.
Both SG and DC-JP way overcosted for what they do.

So now when I don't want to lose really hard I have to take models that any other army can get.
And I don't like that.. Even winning lacks the glory if I cannot field my black company of death or my groups of golden angels.

People everywhere say that the special BA HQ units such as Dante and Mephiston are unplayable because of their high cost and would advise people to run Divination Librarians instead. Prescience is too great a buff to pass up, they say, and the Librarian is an efficient choice. In the following breath, they'll tell you how BA shooting is pretty bad and assault in 6th is even worse. If this is the case, what good is prescience, really? Librarians aren't bad, but I don't feel divination is the force multiplier for BA the way it can be for other armies. How does allowing me the chance to throw a few more 'to wound' dice at a unit trump an ability like Fear of the Darkness, which could force a unit to flee off the table, or shield of sanguinius, which provides mobile cover and is used on the enemies turn, allowing a LVL1 librarian the ability to cast 2 abilities a game turn.

Meanwhile, Dante and Mephiston are pretty amazing. Dante, giving hit and run to whatever unit he's with, debuffing an enemy IC, being pretty amazing in assault despite going at initiative 1, and unlocking Sang Guard as troops, brings a lot to the table. You don't like Sang Guard? Why the heck not? 2+ save, extremely mobile, power weapons, and can be outfitted with plasma pistols or point blank melta...what's not to like? Everyone keeps complaining about how crappy BA troops are. Well here ya go. Sure they're expensive, but that's why you have something nearby giving them FnP. FnP on a 2+ jump unit with power weapons and plasma pistols! I can't believe no one even talks about using these guys. Why the heck do you people play BA anyway?! Red underwear fetishes??!

Mephiston...either you love him or you hate him. I'm not going to go over why his sword being AP3 isn't that big a deal *cough* force weapon *cough*.

I dunno...let's get back to our regularly scheduled rant fest. I'm going to go back to painting an assault squad that I doubt I'll ever play.

Kangodo wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Think the problem with BA overall is that they are average. They don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do it particularly poorly. This becomes an issue with a take all comers list because you end up at a disadvantage in some area of the game.

I would change that line to 'below average' and there are just too many things that confuse me.
But I have high hopes that many things will change with the next codex.
Because it really are minor changes that are needed.

When I started I had to pick an army to play.
It was a tough decision, but I got persuaded by the fluff and the images of their HQ's, the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard.
Needless to say I felt crap when I found out how "below average" those models are.
HQ's overcosted and stocked with abilities I don't need.
Both SG and DC-JP way overcosted for what they do.

So now when I don't want to lose really hard I have to take models that any other army can get.
And I don't like that.. Even winning lacks the glory if I cannot field my black company of death or my groups of golden angels.

Nope they are exactly average, which means they have no strengths, which means they as a full army struggle.

 Voidwraith wrote:
People everywhere say that the special BA HQ units such as Dante and Mephiston are unplayable because of their high cost and would advise people to run Divination Librarians instead. Prescience is too great a buff to pass up, they say, and the Librarian is an efficient choice. In the following breath, they'll tell you how BA shooting is pretty bad and assault in 6th is even worse. If this is the case, what good is prescience, really? Librarians aren't bad, but I don't feel divination is the force multiplier for BA the way it can be for other armies. How does allowing me the chance to throw a few more 'to wound' dice at a unit trump an ability like Fear of the Darkness, which could force a unit to flee off the table, or shield of sanguinius, which provides mobile cover and is used on the enemies turn, allowing a LVL1 librarian the ability to cast 2 abilities a game turn.

Meanwhile, Dante and Mephiston are pretty amazing. Dante, giving hit and run to whatever unit he's with, debuffing an enemy IC, being pretty amazing in assault despite going at initiative 1, and unlocking Sang Guard as troops, brings a lot to the table. You don't like Sang Guard? Why the heck not? 2+ save, extremely mobile, power weapons, and can be outfitted with plasma pistols or point blank melta...what's not to like? Everyone keeps complaining about how crappy BA troops are. Well here ya go. Sure they're expensive, but that's why you have something nearby giving them FnP. FnP on a 2+ jump unit with power weapons and plasma pistols! I can't believe no one even talks about using these guys. Why the heck do you people play BA anyway?! Red underwear fetishes??!

Mephiston...either you love him or you hate him. I'm not going to go over why his sword being AP3 isn't that big a deal *cough* force weapon *cough*.

I dunno...let's get back to our regularly scheduled rant fest. I'm going to go back to painting an assault squad that I doubt I'll ever play.

Sanguinary Guard are decent, but their lack of an invul save is a problem. You're guaranteed to have a low model count, and if the enemy has plasma (or are Eldar) then you're going to be annihilated easily. If AP2 weren't so common these days, they'd be a pretty good solution though.

Kangodo wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Think the problem with BA overall is that they are average. They don't do anything particularly well, nor do they do it particularly poorly. This becomes an issue with a take all comers list because you end up at a disadvantage in some area of the game.

I would change that line to 'below average' and there are just too many things that confuse me.
But I have high hopes that many things will change with the next codex.
Because it really are minor changes that are needed.

When I started I had to pick an army to play.
It was a tough decision, but I got persuaded by the fluff and the images of their HQ's, the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard.
Needless to say I felt crap when I found out how "below average" those models are.
HQ's overcosted and stocked with abilities I don't need.
Both SG and DC-JP way overcosted for what they do.

So now when I don't want to lose really hard I have to take models that any other army can get.
And I don't like that.. Even winning lacks the glory if I cannot field my black company of death or my groups of golden angels.

The DC are so close to being good. But the devil is in the details. Never scores. Must assault to be effective. Transportation options are all flawed. So this means that the DC have multiple points of failure. You can be shot in transit or be spoiling assaulted. For every game they gloriously table a flank, there are two games where the opponent stymies them.

That's just one example. But instead of iconic units that are good, we've dreadnoughts with shotguns, FNP bikers, fast tanks that shoot things, and divination spells. That just doesn't add up to a good functional list. So as Kangodo mentioned, even winning is kind of lackluster with this set up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Voidwraith wrote:
People everywhere say that the special BA HQ units such as Dante and Mephiston are unplayable because of their high cost and would advise people to run Divination Librarians instead. Prescience is too great a buff to pass up, they say, and the Librarian is an efficient choice. In the following breath, they'll tell you how BA shooting is pretty bad and assault in 6th is even worse. If this is the case, what good is prescience, really? Librarians aren't bad, but I don't feel divination is the force multiplier for BA the way it can be for other armies. How does allowing me the chance to throw a few more 'to wound' dice at a unit trump an ability like Fear of the Darkness, which could force a unit to flee off the table, or shield of sanguinius, which provides mobile cover and is used on the enemies turn, allowing a LVL1 librarian the ability to cast 2 abilities a game turn.

Meanwhile, Dante and Mephiston are pretty amazing. Dante, giving hit and run to whatever unit he's with, debuffing an enemy IC, being pretty amazing in assault despite going at initiative 1, and unlocking Sang Guard as troops, brings a lot to the table. You don't like Sang Guard? Why the heck not? 2+ save, extremely mobile, power weapons, and can be outfitted with plasma pistols or point blank melta...what's not to like? Everyone keeps complaining about how crappy BA troops are. Well here ya go. Sure they're expensive, but that's why you have something nearby giving them FnP. FnP on a 2+ jump unit with power weapons and plasma pistols! I can't believe no one even talks about using these guys. Why the heck do you people play BA anyway?! Red underwear fetishes??!

Mephiston...either you love him or you hate him. I'm not going to go over why his sword being AP3 isn't that big a deal *cough* force weapon *cough*.

I dunno...let's get back to our regularly scheduled rant fest. I'm going to go back to painting an assault squad that I doubt I'll ever play.

I'd use them if they didn't die like bitches to plasma and other AP2. Other generals are going to focus plasma fire on them them and then just use the regular firepower on the other ASM. It's not a good idea to count on LOS blocking terrain to be in a useful spot on the board, either. The good news: SG close quickly and shred nearly any enemy troop in the game. Bad news: the enemy general only needs one turn of fire to cripple them. The fact that 6th edition is now a game of opponents grabbing huge fistfuls of dice really changes what is good.

I've rethought Mephiston a bit. He's now decent against Eldar. The AP 3 is not really why I don't like him. I don't like him for the same reason the SG aren't that good: too much mid strength AP 2. And he's not a force multiplier like a regular divination librarian.

See, prescience makes regular BA ASM capable of doing the kinds of damage they need to in order to be dangerous. Against many foes, rerolling misses increases damage out put by 50%! And you can reroll shooting to boot. The problem being that we can't get divination support to each ASM squad. Divination has other excellent powers such as 4++ save and ignoring cover. Fear the darkness and shield of sanguinius are solid as well, and I do use them in some of my lists.

The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

 Voidwraith wrote:
The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

I've never had a problem killing my opponent's SG, and I'm playing BA, which we already determined don't shoot well. The SG have to get close to do anything, and there is more than likely a turn where they are vulnerable, and that's all it takes. I doesn't have to be plasma. It can just be a bunch of pulse rifle fire. Once the 5 guys are down to 2 guys, they are crippled.

Besides, you are talking about a 225 pt HQ and a 50 pt (usually 75) IC to make a 225(?) pt 5-man squad scoring and FNP. That's over 500 pts and you have six T4 W1 models and one T4 W4 model! That's 50 pts/wound! That's why no one talks about taking them.

 ravengatorfan wrote:
I think black Templar can be good. I roll up in my all dedicated land raider crusaders and assault out of them. (I don't do it but it sounds awesome)

The problem is that technically they are not allowed to assault from their assault vehicles. Their Landraiders uses the universal special rule "Assault vehicle". This used to excist in the rule book but doesn't anymore.
And as far as I remember the FAQ says they can't assault from them.

Tragic that the founder of Landraider Crusader can't use their main purpouse.

Blood Angels have sternguard that can gain feel no pain. They also still have devastator's who can also get feel no pain. Terminators with feel no pain? Easier assault units with flamers that can deep strike closer to the enemy? Yeah. They have all that. There's still a decent army.

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

I've never had a problem killing my opponent's SG, and I'm playing BA, which we already determined don't shoot well. The SG have to get close to do anything, and there is more than likely a turn where they are vulnerable, and that's all it takes. I doesn't have to be plasma. It can just be a bunch of pulse rifle fire. Once the 5 guys are down to 2 guys, they are crippled.

Besides, you are talking about a 225 pt HQ and a 50 pt (usually 75) IC to make a 225(?) pt 5-man squad scoring and FNP. That's over 500 pts and you have six T4 W1 models and one T4 W4 model! That's 50 pts/wound! That's why no one talks about taking them.

No, I'm talking about a functional HQ that replaces the generic HQs that people take because they're cheap but by the end of the game, aren't the reason you've won or lost. Also, it's not as if that generic HQ is free. I'm willing to pay the point difference for what Dante can bring.

As for the Sang guard. You're right...225pts for sang guard doesn't work. You need to spend 500-750 pts on sang guard to make them worthwhile. I suppose that's not entirely true. I did get some great results out of the one 250pt squad I ran the last time I played my Blood Angels, the golden ones flying around assaulting and disrupting my opponents troops and remaining effective the entire game. Either way, as with most elite units...one is good, but two or three is always better.

I will give Martel the respect he is due for having tons more experience with BA than I do, and I'm not saying they're a top tier codex in 6th. It's just that things aren't as bleak as everyone is saying, some special characters are worth their points cost, and if you don't like any of the BA special units, why are you still playing them?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Blood Angels have to pay for searchlights.

Their vehicles don't come with lights.

They drive around in the dark without headlights.

With extra fast vehicles.

They like to live dangerously?!

"Who are Blood Angels better than?"

Justin beiber

Nicki Minaj

Xboxne haters

Call of duty

 Vombat wrote:

The problem is that technically they are not allowed to assault from their assault vehicles. Their Landraiders uses the universal special rule "Assault vehicle". This used to excist in the rule book but doesn't anymore.
And as far as I remember the FAQ says they can't assault from them.

Tragic that the founder of Landraider Crusader can't use their main purpouse.

Are you seriously going to tell your opponent that he can't assault from an LRC because of that? You must be very popular.

Listen, this whole thread is ridiculous. I have seen Blood Angels players tear up "competitive" armies, and yes, in 6e. It depends a lot on the player to find his right balance. Just because it isn't a one-click army with an easy build doesn't mean it can't be effective. It means a player has to *gasp* try it out and experiment. Yes, their HQs are expensive, but when was the last time we read "Mephiston is an easy kill"? And Death Company, if you don't dump anlot of points into it, it won't be effective. Once you do, however, tabling is now an option.

Just admit it that trite catchwords like "competitive" and "viable" just mean "easy one-click options like Necrons".

Breng77 wrote:
I think the thing I am seeing here is BA can win in 2 cases.

2.) When you are a better player/outplay than your opponent.

This is the goal always! In a perfectly balanced game this would always be the only way to win.... so no complaining that this is the answer unless you want to play a game that is pay to win.

Things like getting Jetbikes caught by a baall pred is a mistake by the eldar player. Jetbikes are much faster and thus should be able to avoid the flamer.

This is true... but the dakka pred would be able to gun them down easily enough.

I agree rangers are bad. But what does the Fragiouso do when its targets are serpents and Wraithknights? Wait unitl you kill a serpent to come in, but now the sternguard need to come in...but then they don't kill the serpents effectively...

If a frag dred is being used against a WK or a WS then some serious tactical errors have been made. WS should be engaged in CC ideally or at range with devastators. WK should be dealt with through backfield scouts and devastators. Use the right solutions for problems.

Do I think I can make a TAC BA list that has a chance of beating Serpent spam, probably. But it will be tough, and probably use allies.

Yes. It is called use of 1-2 AV 14 vehicles. Once again, TAC lists are all about having an answer for everything, even if it isn't perfect.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
The only place people have plasma filled lists that can kill all of my units no matter where they're at on the board, no problem, is on forums.

I've never had a problem killing my opponent's SG, and I'm playing BA, which we already determined don't shoot well. The SG have to get close to do anything, and there is more than likely a turn where they are vulnerable, and that's all it takes. I doesn't have to be plasma. It can just be a bunch of pulse rifle fire. Once the 5 guys are down to 2 guys, they are crippled.

Besides, you are talking about a 225 pt HQ and a 50 pt (usually 75) IC to make a 225(?) pt 5-man squad scoring and FNP. That's over 500 pts and you have six T4 W1 models and one T4 W4 model! That's 50 pts/wound! That's why no one talks about taking them.

No, I'm talking about a functional HQ that replaces the generic HQs that people take because they're cheap but by the end of the game, aren't the reason you've won or lost. Also, it's not as if that generic HQ is free. I'm willing to pay the point difference for what Dante can bring.

As for the Sang guard. You're right...225pts for sang guard doesn't work. You need to spend 500-750 pts on sang guard to make them worthwhile. I suppose that's not entirely true. I did get some great results out of the one 250pt squad I ran the last time I played my Blood Angels, the golden ones flying around assaulting and disrupting my opponents troops and remaining effective the entire game. Either way, as with most elite units...one is good, but two or three is always better.

I will give Martel the respect he is due for having tons more experience with BA than I do, and I'm not saying they're a top tier codex in 6th. It's just that things aren't as bleak as everyone is saying, some special characters are worth their points cost, and if you don't like any of the BA special units, why are you still playing them?

Only army I own.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Blood Angels have to pay for searchlights.

Their vehicles don't come with lights.

They drive around in the dark without headlights.

With extra fast vehicles.

no one gives BA points for being intelligent

Ok, guys... I'm not a BA player, but have been a fan since the Angels of Death book back in 2nd edition. I own the new codex and such, so I am familiar with the rules and such. I have a player who is returning to the hobby and joining our group again to game. He really hasn't played much since just before the 6th edition rule set came out. A handful of 6th ed games, we'll say. He is all excited to get going again, and was even polishing off some 1,000 point lists (we have decided to go back down to 1,000 point again to freshen up the meta - been playing a lot of 2k dual force org).

Our meta contains, Space Marines, Chaos Demons, Eldar, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Orks, Tyranids, IG, and now BA. How can I help him get his bearings? What recommendations should I give him to build a good TAC list?

I have read through this forum, so I know there is much debate on the viability of the BA as a whole but I know he does not have the money or interest to pick up a new army. He likes his Blood Angels for many of the same reasons you all do. They're badass (from a fluff and model prespective).

Perhaps this is a different topic and I should start a new post, but I think this works well with the OP. BA are better than what? well, that's kind of a bad way to look at things in 40k, especially since we are in a big RPS edition.

How do I help this guy get back into the swing of things, without getting really discouraged?

I'd make another thread. This one is kind of done I think.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Ok, guys... I'm not a BA player, but have been a fan since the Angels of Death book back in 2nd edition. I own the new codex and such, so I am familiar with the rules and such. I have a player who is returning to the hobby and joining our group again to game. He really hasn't played much since just before the 6th edition rule set came out. A handful of 6th ed games, we'll say. He is all excited to get going again, and was even polishing off some 1,000 point lists (we have decided to go back down to 1,000 point again to freshen up the meta - been playing a lot of 2k dual force org).

Our meta contains, Space Marines, Chaos Demons, Eldar, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Orks, Tyranids, IG, and now BA. How can I help him get his bearings? What recommendations should I give him to build a good TAC list?

I have read through this forum, so I know there is much debate on the viability of the BA as a whole but I know he does not have the money or interest to pick up a new army. He likes his Blood Angels for many of the same reasons you all do. They're badass (from a fluff and model prespective).

Perhaps this is a different topic and I should start a new post, but I think this works well with the OP. BA are better than what? well, that's kind of a bad way to look at things in 40k, especially since we are in a big RPS edition.

How do I help this guy get back into the swing of things, without getting really discouraged?

What is your meta like? Mech, Infantry etc..

A solid unit would be a Frag Cannon Dread in a pod. Always causes some damage and is a great model

Another on would be a ADL w/ any gun. This is for AA. If you don't see many fliers, this is not really that useful

A jumper list with some support does fairly well in 1k games.

Heres what I used to run at the beginning of 6th:

Librarian (Shield, Unleash Rage, Jump Pack)

Furioso (Frag Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)

Sanguinary Priest (Jump Pack, Melta Bombs)

ASM (10 man, X2 Melta)

ASM (10 man, X2 Melta)

ASM (10 man, X2 Flamer, Melta Bombs)

Comes out at 1k on the dot.

Hope this helps!

Lucarikx

 warpspider89 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I think the thing I am seeing here is BA can win in 2 cases.

2.) When you are a better player/outplay than your opponent.

This is the goal always! In a perfectly balanced game this would always be the only way to win.... so no complaining that this is the answer unless you want to play a game that is pay to win.

Things like getting Jetbikes caught by a baall pred is a mistake by the eldar player. Jetbikes are much faster and thus should be able to avoid the flamer.

This is true... but the dakka pred would be able to gun them down easily enough.

I agree rangers are bad. But what does the Fragiouso do when its targets are serpents and Wraithknights? Wait unitl you kill a serpent to come in, but now the sternguard need to come in...but then they don't kill the serpents effectively...

If a frag dred is being used against a WK or a WS then some serious tactical errors have been made. WS should be engaged in CC ideally or at range with devastators. WK should be dealt with through backfield scouts and devastators. Use the right solutions for problems.

Do I think I can make a TAC BA list that has a chance of beating Serpent spam, probably. But it will be tough, and probably use allies.

Yes. It is called use of 1-2 AV 14 vehicles. Once again, TAC lists are all about having an answer for everything, even if it isn't perfect.

No the point of #2 was that if skill is even and no one makes mistakes the BA player is likely going to lose. I get the feeling that a lot of the BA players that come on here and give advice do so from a place where they are better than their local players...

as for the other points

A Dakka Pred Kills 2 Jet bikes....Hardly gunning them down easily. Unless it is a Dakka Baal and then you improve to killing 3....

And while you are engaging with the proper tools you have wasted points on improper tools? It is nice to say that x will deal with y, and that works great unitl you have 1 x and I have 8 y, and I target your x, making all your z useless because it cannot deal with y.

2 Land Raiders die pretty easy to Wraithknights and don't kill much....

The issue again is assuming that you will always have answers (bad answers are not answers). Again it is not an auto loss, but it is an uphill fight that requires that you are better than your opponent and make few mistakes if any.

I don't play BA, but I can say that they have not really impressed me in 6th (I have never lost to them, though that is true for any non GK MEQ). The issue becomes that my answers to your units tend to be better than yours are to mine. (I also don't play eldar, but serpent spam is a scarier list than anything BA can field). TO compete at a top level I feel that BA need allies of some sort (this is true for Templars and Vanilla Marines as well.)

1 assuming the enemy will "and the wrong question" is equivalent to assuming that the opposing player will have the right answer.

2. Answers have varying degrees of value. Some hare great "hard counters" and some just work well enough "soft counters". As long as an answer exists it is something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are these hypothetical people doing serpent spam and fielding WK? Sounds like BS to me. Serpent spam is answered by high AV. Simple. It is manageable with the right tools.

I play Eldar & work with my bro on his BA. I'd say I have more experience talking about Eldar & BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you think the purpose of a LR is to slaughter your enemies then I recommend re-evaluating your understanding of the purpose and application of LR.

I play against Eldar almost every game in my FLGS. Ignore the WK, its damage/point ratio is horrible. If it manages to kill 15 marines then the Eldar player must have gotten really lucky.

WS spam isn't that hard to deal with. Like warpspider89 said, high AV works great. You could also just move onto all the objectives and have good positioning(Putting objectives behind LOS blocking terrain, staying in reserve). Your opponent can't win the game if he stays in his transports all the time.

Lucarikx

 warpspider89 wrote:
1 assuming the enemy will "and the wrong question" is equivalent to assuming that the opposing player will have the right answer.

2. Answers have varying degrees of value. Some hare great "hard counters" and some just work well enough "soft counters". As long as an answer exists it is something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are these hypothetical people doing serpent spam and fielding WK? Sounds like BS to me. Serpent spam is answered by high AV. Simple. It is manageable with the right tools.

I play Eldar & work with my bro on his BA. I'd say I have more experience talking about Eldar & BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you think the purpose of a LR is to slaughter your enemies then I recommend re-evaluating your understanding of the purpose and application of LR.

NO the purpose of a land raider is not really to kill stuff, but I find them underwhelming most of the time, and eldar have plenty of answers to them. SO is your BA answer then to play 4 land raiders in hope that you face Serpent spam with no answer, and hope you don't face say FMC daemons who eat your army?

This idea that your army has every anwer and I cannot say, ignore your land raider (or 2) and kill the rest of your army and still win is silly.

FYI I play Daemons mainly and BA have almost NO answers to my army. They don't shoot well enough, don't have the durability/or offensive ability to compete in Close combat, and are far too slow. So if we want to get away from the eldar comparison, BA have much worse match-ups in the Meta than Eldar. Against My current Daemon Build BA are hoping I roll poorly and Make mistakes. Which is what I see happen when they face other top armies played by players of equal or better skill.

It also seems like many are trying to list tailor, sure if I tell you you are playing Serpent spam you can run Land Raiders, and in other match-up they are a giant waste of points.

That is only your opinion. A high armour transport that doesn't take up a slot (more devastators), can fire 2x TL las cannon shots after moving 12 inches, and can quite a bit of block LOS is valuable IMO. Just take in. Practical numbers & use wisely

Except it is not more anything it takes up 200+ points so when taking them (300+ with a unit) you are not in danger of maxing out on slots in the first place.. Not saying it is useless, just very match-up dependent

The ultimate irony of the Blood Angels/Pretty boy chapter is that they are better khornates than the actual world eaters rules wise.

Getting the Icon of fury shoved up my Juggerlord's ass by mephiston was amusing, the Death company crapping all over my bezerkers less so.

Khorne does have some problems in 6th. A lot of them are the same problems the BA have. I think Slannesh and Nurgle marines are better than BA, however.

I have one TAC list with one LR in it. There's a lot of AV 13 in addition. It doesn't seem to do any better or worse than my drop pod/jump marine list. I just loses to/beats different things.

Martel732 wrote:
Khorne does have some problems in 6th. A lot of them are the same problems the BA have. I think Slannesh and Nurgle marines are better than BA, however.

I have one TAC list with one LR in it. There's a lot of AV 13 in addition. It doesn't seem to do any better or worse than my drop pod/jump marine list. I just loses to/beats different things.

Going with a world eaters CSM list is like a costlier, crappier melee Angels list.

With far fewer options and your dreads MUST charge the last guy to shave a hull point (think of how easily this is abused.)

Bezerkers really do suck more with each edition.

I think Sanguinor is the best example of what is wrong with the codex
BS5 without any shooting (except grenades)
WS8 which is way over the top.
A couple of special rules that are unneeded.
And the lack of rules and stats it does need!

The Sanguinor is a 275 pt model that gets killed by boltguns! And can't join a unit. So. Much. Fail.