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 wuestenfux wrote:

 Shan1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

Better terminators (more special weapons for them), and I think even speeders were cheaper, but I might be wrong about the last one.

BA is better than.. Well not definently sisters, their churchmobiles are horrible to play against. And so is Celestine..

Indeed, that's what I'm thinking. BT Terminators are great and make up for a decent list with 5 Termie squads.

You can almost get 10 BA Devestators with Missile Launchers for the cost of 5 BT Terminators with dual CMLs and Tank Hunters. If the problem with BA is that everything is expensive then the problem with BT is that everything is expensive and most of it isn't that good. Dual CML Terminators are solid, but that's it. If you think BA Troops choices suck, check out the BT Codex. If you think BA have issues getting into CC, try Templars. If you think BA HQ choices are expensive for little gain, try Templars. BA have better Troops, better HQs, better Fast Attack and better Heavy Support than Black Templars. The dual CML/Assault Cannon loadouts for Terminators singlehandedly carries the Elite slot to victory for the Templars, but not by much.

Why BA are better than other armies I've encountered/played? Let me tell you what I've learned from my mistakes and observation:

- The notorious Death Company! I know, they won't score, but who cares, when you empty the enemy's objectives with this implaceable black blob of doom?
- Tanks move twice the distance, due to FAST rule. Hi, I am a Vanilla Marine player, and I'd also love to have a Vindicator that moves 12" and shoots.
- Special Character HQ's are truly something to be afraid of. Such as Mephiston with Biomancy discipline (not only he has an insane statline, if that dude gets It Will Not Die, Relentless and Eternal Warrior, he's broken)
- And also:


Allright, those are quite good benefits. On the other hand, BA will suffer:

- The tanks are expensive. If you wish to have some machines on the table, they'll eat up your points well.
- Non-special HQ's are not worth taking, considering their cost-effectiveness (counting out the Reclusiarch, and even he needs henchmen to stay alive). I WON'T take a well-geared captain that costs over 120 points... unless he's on a bike.
- The Red Thirst on the objective games, and when you NEED to stay on them to win. Oh, your capping troops got Fearless and Furious Charge? Good, so they won't be able to get down to get +1 cover save! My devastators and thunderfire cannons are most pleased.
- Some DERPS in the codex. Deep striking Land Raiders? Seriously, who DARES to use that feature? And Librarian Dreadnought... *sigh* I've never seen that unit being useful.

I would actually dispute that BA are better than Sisters at this point. I should know as the 2 armies I run are BA and Sisters!

I've been opting to run my Sisters over my BA and have been surprised how effective they are, sure they're fragile but can put out a surprising amount of hurt.

The biggest problems for BA is that are troops aren't threatening enough, ASM just are scary by the time they reach assault as the downgrade to FNP makes us much more susceptable to small-arms-fire, not to mention the amount of ap3 or better weapons floating around. Sure we get armour saves for dangerous terrain now so it's easier tto get a cover save but ultimately this just slows you down and gives the enermy further oppotunity to reduce your numbers and effectiveness. Our vehicles come at a premium cost (fast should be an upgrade, not included as standard) and vehicles aren't as durable as they use to be and we have lost alot of potrntial in firepower output because of this. We have alot of dreads many of which can't perform in the shooting meta and our fluffy uniits and characters are too expensive to realistically consider in a TAC list.

It's not all doom and gloom though, I still have fun with my BA andyou can still win games.

D

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So this thread is now going to degenerate into everyone defending their favorite book... just like every thread like this one. Thank you, warpspider89...

Well I don't do that. And I've already seen some input I've never heard before. And I don't see anyone defending their "favorite" book. I see the usual suspects being bandied about: Sisters, BT, Orks when talking about the bottom of the 40K heap.

The BA may match up decently against Orks, but I still feel like the Ork codex is better against the field than the BA. We can look at this two ways:

BA vs specific codex

BA vs all possible matchups
Comparison codex vs all possible matchups

It's the TAC environment and vs the field where I think BA basically blow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tigramans wrote:
Why BA are better than other armies I've encountered/played? Let me tell you what I've learned from my mistakes and observation:

- The notorious Death Company! I know, they won't score, but who cares, when you empty the enemy's objectives with this implaceable black blob of doom?
- Tanks move twice the distance, due to FAST rule. Hi, I am a Vanilla Marine player, and I'd also love to have a Vindicator that moves 12" and shoots.
- Special Character HQ's are truly something to be afraid of. Such as Mephiston with Biomancy discipline (not only he has an insane statline, if that dude gets It Will Not Die, Relentless and Eternal Warrior, he's broken)
- And also:

Spoiler:

Damn you, Sanguinary Priests.

Allright, those are quite good benefits. On the other hand, BA will suffer:

- The tanks are expensive. If you wish to have some machines on the table, they'll eat up your points well.
- Non-special HQ's are not worth taking, considering their cost-effectiveness (counting out the Reclusiarch, and even he needs henchmen to stay alive). I WON'T take a well-geared captain that costs over 120 points... unless he's on a bike.
- The Red Thirst on the objective games, and when you NEED to stay on them to win. Oh, your capping troops got Fearless and Furious Charge? Good, so they won't be able to get down to get +1 cover save! My devastators and thunderfire cannons are most pleased.
- Some DERPS in the codex. Deep striking Land Raiders? Seriously, who DARES to use that feature? And Librarian Dreadnought... *sigh* I've never seen that unit being useful.

BA special HQs are fething terrible for the points. I don't what 40K universe you beamed in from, but even Mephiston is rather dubious now. The poor guy can't reliably beat up any schlub with a 2+ save.

since sixth ed, I have play blood angel for 6 games;

I have more win then lose but it was last year when 6th just come out.

I think the result was 4:0:2

the list that I run in 5th 2000pt;

Libby Jump pack
Libby Jump pack

chaplian Jump pack
chaplian Jump pack

S priest Jump pack
S priest Jump pack
S priest

Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power weapon
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power weapon
Assault 10 men,
Assault 10 men,

dev 5 men 4 las cannon
dev 5 men 4 Pas cannon
dev 5 men 4 Missile launcher

the 5th list was quite nice because it is even and symmetrical.

the devs will sit with the priest in cover at the deployment zone and
Libby will join chaplian join jump priest;attach to one of the naked troop;

the naked troops are road block and will take damage.
the tooled up troop will follow closely; when in range; the independent charactors will swap troop; then charge in full strenght

dev will act as bait; assault army will try to go hand to hand with them; for shooty army; BA being space marine they will most likely outshoot them

also when assaulting tanks, choose to use melee weapon rather then kark granade; at strength 5 back armour 10 hits on 5s.

in 5th the i5 means that force weapon, power weapon (serg) and chaplian will go first; 12 attack reroll to hit s5 i5 means that it usually wipe out all; this was the main damage dealer
in 5th fnp means that BA almost immune to small arm fire.
all start on board, no need to reserve; just get cover


but we are in 6th now so:


the list that I run in 6th 2000pt;

Captain Tycho

chaplian (or libby) Jump pack

chaplian

Cobulo
S priest
S priest Jump pack


Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe
Assault 10 men, 2 melta, Power Axe


dev 5 men 4 las cannon
dev 5 men 4 Pas cannon
dev 5 men 4 Missile launcher

since 6th; the i5 is gone, power weapon is graded and fnp is 5+; but the battle plan is more or less the same;
the dev will sit in cover with naked priest;

tycho join naked chaplian join cobulo sit close to dev group.

the assault join jump chaplian (or libby) and jump priest going out as a group. support by another group of assault marine

it is more shooty now so the emphasis is dev shooting and use assault as interceptors / road block; rather then the main damage dealer.

if anyone silly enough to get too close to the devs sent out tycho group; his i5, no armour save, plus reroll to hit form chaplian will hit hard on most unit.

same as 5th all start on board, no need to reserve; just get cover



I am temped to add tech marine, servistor to tycho's group; also add dante, space marine ally and reduce the assult troops; but I think it will wear quite thin on the troop choice.

Martel732 wrote:

BA special HQs are fething terrible for the points. I don't what 40K universe you beamed in from, but even Mephiston is rather dubious now. The poor guy can't reliably beat up any schlub with a 2+ save.

As I mentioned before, Biomancy is the thing that makes him insane. Without it, he might be less than decent. If you roll Iron Arm, Endurance and Warp Speed, and keep Endurance up and running with the librarian, he has Feel No Pain, Relentless, and It Will Not Die. He has a toughness of six, initiative of SEVEN, and FIVE fragging wounds! Truly something that even Calgar is jealous of. He's not an Eternal Warrior, but who gives a damn when the only thing that slays him is Instant Death, Jaws, or the rest a handful of special weapons/spells that nullifies his saves, what - at least what I've observed - are quite uncommon.

Also, I just had a match with BA today, and ate half a table with Mephiston. Right, he was traveling with a Stormraven, got immobilised when on the table, so he got back to the reserve again. In the next turn, I crashed him nearby the opponent's objective, ran towards the cappers and actually emptied the whole place during the 6th-7th round. He had Life Leech, Endurance and Haemorrhage as psychic powers from Biomancy, and I constantly rolled successfully the Endurance, thus being nigh-impossible to kill, and he just got the wounds back from It Will Not Die and Life Leech by sucking a few marines from the Tactical squad ranks. The gang of Vulkan He'stan simply disappeared in front of the Lord of Death - and so did the capping Tac squad.

Martel732 wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

We're factoring that out. Given skill as equal, then rate the BA.

it doesnt help that many of the worst marine players play red marines....

BA are better than....... Sisters(?). Maybe not.

Sorry, but as a BA player I have to say that on a competitive scene there is no way for BA to do well. BA just dont have the versatility to cover all of their bases.

Even if you use a net-list for BA, it won't work anywhere but the meta is was made for. In metas that have smaller armies Droplists might work amazingly, but that same list would bite the dust to any Tau gunline.

This is mostly from experience using the same list and trying it out in different metas. I took a list that was undefeated in my local meta and used it at WGC, where it did horribly.

Just my 2c.

Lucarikx

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BA special HQs are fething terrible for the points. I don't what 40K universe you beamed in from, but even Mephiston is rather dubious now. The poor guy can't reliably beat up any schlub with a 2+ save.

As I mentioned before, Biomancy is the thing that makes him insane. Without it, he might be less than decent. If you roll Iron Arm, Endurance and Warp Speed, and keep Endurance up and running with the librarian, he has Feel No Pain, Relentless, and It Will Not Die. He has a toughness of six, initiative of SEVEN, and FIVE fragging wounds! Truly something that even Calgar is jealous of. He's not an Eternal Warrior, but who gives a damn when the only thing that slays him is Instant Death, Jaws, or the rest a handful of special weapons/spells that nullifies his saves, what - at least what I've observed - are quite uncommon.

Also, I just had a match with BA today, and ate half a table with Mephiston. Right, he was traveling with a Stormraven, got immobilised when on the table, so he got back to the reserve again. In the next turn, I crashed him nearby the opponent's objective, ran towards the cappers and actually emptied the whole place during the 6th-7th round. He had Life Leech, Endurance and Haemorrhage as psychic powers from Biomancy, and I constantly rolled successfully the Endurance, thus being nigh-impossible to kill, and he just got the wounds back from It Will Not Die and Life Leech by sucking a few marines from the Tactical squad ranks. The gang of Vulkan He'stan simply disappeared in front of the Lord of Death - and so did the capping Tac squad.

Got some bad news for ya: Mephiston only gets two psychic powers if you switch out for book powers. That makes biomancy considerably less attractive. Even if you get the powers you are looking for, for every game like you list, there are three where he gets shot off the table with little effect. Is that worth 250 pts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lucarikx wrote:
BA are better than....... Sisters(?). Maybe not.

Sorry, but as a BA player I have to say that on a competitive scene there is no way for BA to do well. I took a list that was undefeated in my local meta and used it at WGC, where it did horribly. BA just dont have the versatility to cover all of their bases.

Even if you use a net-list for BA, it won't work anywhere but the meta is was made for. In metas that have smaller armies Droplists might work amazingly, but that same list would bite the dust to any Tau gunline.

Just my 2c.

Lucarikx

I think your experience sums up every "big fish in a little pond" player that talks smack about how its all gonna be different for them because they have THE BA list. They get exposed to something like WGC, and just can't understand what happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

We're factoring that out. Given skill as equal, then rate the BA.

it doesnt help that many of the worst marine players play red marines....

Is that true?

Martel732 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

it doesnt help that many of the worst marine players play red marines....

Is that true?

It is my experience, since 3rd edition. The bloodrage marines seem to appeal to the new players who dont really know much about the game and charge headlong into better assault units. Players who build an army around big and shiny but expensive questionable units. Taking too many big HQs, too many upgrades, too many death company. Players who dont know how to take advantage of their fast vehicles.

There are some good blood angels players.
There are bad players who play other armies
There are bad players who play other marine armies

But in my experience, the largest percentage of bad marine players are BA players in a way that has little to do with the competitiveness of their codex.

Epic LOL. Too many big HQ, too many upgrades, too many DC sums up the "how to win with BA" primer in my area as well." When I unpack my armies they often ask "are you proxying vanilla?".

These are they same guys that brag about their success with BA but don't seem to know what a triple helldrake or flying circus list is referring to.

Martel732 wrote:

Got some bad news for ya: Mephiston only gets two psychic powers if you switch out for book powers. That makes biomancy considerably less attractive. Even if you get the powers you are looking for, for every game like you list, there are three where he gets shot off the table with little effect. Is that worth 250 pts?

And what would those "three" be?
The solution for POSSIBLY preventing him getting shot off, is to put him in a Land Raider... or Stormraven, as I did an earlier game I mentioned about.

But hold on: are you speaking about this in a competitive level? If that's the case, yes, I'd pick another HQ. And another codex. But that would destroy this debate right away.
Take note, that I am not a powerplayer nor a tournament-level tablecrusher.

Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

Exalbaru wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Sisters of Battle, maybe? You've still got a couple good options, but you're an entirely dedicated assault army in an edition that hates assault. Even Orks have Lootas and Space Wolves have Long Fangs. You've got... Um... Bolt guns?

Even then sisters have exorcists which are pretty epic, I do hate scrolling through a PDF codex though.

Print it

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

Except this is the tactics threads, and we ste having a serious discussion over who the blood angels are better in a tactical setting. We're not talking about who are BA better in a casual, non tactica, friendly setting.

6th edition does favor shooting, but it also favors maneuverability. BAs big advantage over other marine codecies is the speed in which they do their work. Maybe the question should be, who are the BA faster than...and if it even matters.

 Voidwraith wrote:
6th edition does favor shooting, but it also favors maneuverability. BAs big advantage over other marine codecies is the speed in which they do their work. Maybe the question should be, who are the BA faster than...and if it even matters.

That is an interesting way to look at things. In general BA are faster than most armies. Does this matter though? Well... That depends on two things: enemy deployment/positioning & objective marker locations.

Speed allows an army to position it's forces to gain the maximum amoun of leverage against a minimal amount of resistance. If an enemy deploys or positions in such a way that units are isolated, then the BA have an opportunity to take advantage of that through their mobility. So that is a strength.

40k missions are won by accumulating more victory points than the enemy. In most missions the bulk of VPs are obtained by controling objectives. More accessible objectives will be more hotly contested. If an objective marker is needed for victory points and is easily accessible, then the location of objective markers will determine where the fighting happens. So, objective placement is important because they control the flow of combat.

More mobile armies are more able to access objectives. It the aforementioned premises are accepted and some objectives are easily accessible to both armies while others are only eaaily accessible to one army, then the flow of fighting will be concentrated around those easily accessible objectives, which leaves the other objectives less defended for the army that can access them. So, mobility provides a benefit to BA here too. Objectives placed away from the flow of battle are likely to fall into the hands of the BA unless they face a force with superior speed that can take and hold them

There are some advantages to BA mobility

Speed on it's own is worth little without being able to put out some damage. The new kids on the block are especially maneuverable with their battle focus and jsj shinanigans, so bot only are they hard to catch they'll shoot you off the table whilst you chase them.

D

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

Except this is the tactics threads, and we ste having a serious discussion over who the blood angels are better in a tactical setting. We're not talking about who are BA better in a casual, non tactica, friendly setting.

My mistake. Move this if necessary.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

That's what I wanted to know. You see, I don't play competitively, nor my mates. Our fields vary. For me, the fluff and fun comes first - then the cost-efficiency of the unis. So please, don't shove "sup-optimal" mantra down my throat, I am sick and tired of it. If I would play to win, I'd play nothing else than Necrons with maximum amount of Scythes, or go Tau, but I'm not that heartless.

I think we're done here.

Except this is the tactics threads, and we ste having a serious discussion over who the blood angels are better in a tactical setting. We're not talking about who are BA better in a casual, non tactica, friendly setting.

Mhmm, if you want to play casually then the tactics forum doesn't really even matter.

In casual, "grab whatever you think is cool" the best list is arbitrary. It's fine to play that way, but it's just not relevant to this analysis.

As stated above, BA have speed. But it's useless speed when our damage output is subpar, and the units we have are already premium priced. The "new" speed of Eldar makes our fast vehicals a joke. Unfortunately we are just suffering the effects of a 5th edition codex that translated in the worst possibly way into 6th.

The most success I have had with BA is in cheap unit spam. Which is now negated due to the abundance of helldrakes and ap3 weaponry or pseudo rending.

At this point there is really nothing that the BA can do that another codex can't do better. It's really a shame to see one of the best original codex chapters relegated to such obsolescence and impotence.

BA are better than any army who can't have wings on their shoulder pads.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can almost get 10 BA Devestators with Missile Launchers for the cost of 5 BT Terminators with dual CMLs and Tank Hunters. If the problem with BA is that everything is expensive then the problem with BT is that everything is expensive and most of it isn't that good. Dual CML Terminators are solid, but that's it. If you think BA Troops choices suck, check out the BT Codex. If you think BA have issues getting into CC, try Templars. If you think BA HQ choices are expensive for little gain, try Templars. BA have better Troops, better HQs, better Fast Attack and better Heavy Support than Black Templars. The dual CML/Assault Cannon loadouts for Terminators singlehandedly carries the Elite slot to victory for the Templars, but not by much.

I guess the issue to consider when debating what's better between BA and BT is that most of the options are bad. So saying that BA have better troops because BA marines have Red Thirst and BT marines move 3" towards the enemy when they lose a model sounds goofy when you consider that marines are terrible. If we weren't looking at allies at all, then I think I'd rather have BT Troops because you can include a heavy weapon for every 5 marines and if you want ablative wounds then you can include cheap scouts instead of expensive marines which are already terrible.

Really the debate to me isn't, "which is less terrible" so much as, "understanding that both armies are terrible, who can mitigate the bad to include the good" and if I get small marine squads with heavy weapons and BT termies then I'm happy. Also Land Speeder Typhoons (with the Typhoon missile launcher) are 20 pts cheaper in a BT army than any other SM army I'm aware of and the Land Raiders are the exact same. The only drawback I see is that there aren't any flyers and every BT list is going to look similar in order to maximize the good choices and negate the bad.

I haven't seen a non-Death Company and Mephiston army in a while, but iirc BA can take Land Raiders as a dedicated transport for marines, so to optimize BA I guess you take 3 Heavy Support choices and as many Land Raiders as you can cram into the points limit. I'm sure there are some armies who won't have a good answer to this, but I think most armies could deal with this even if they didn't know it was coming.

Either way, I think it's agreed that BA are pretty much bottom of the heap. I think a more interesting question might have been "What are BA good at?" or "What are good options in the BA army?" because the original question is very open and has drawn arguments which defend marines or who focus on the bad aspects of a 5th ed codex rather than what is still good (or at least better than vanilla marines). Also it's fruitless to discuss allies in a debate like this, but if you're considering how to actually play BA then you'll probably have a lot more success by including allies. Basically what I'm trying to ask is, "How does one salvage the BA codex?"

fuhrmaaj wrote:
Basically what I'm trying to ask is, "How does one salvage the BA codex?"

I think this should be the conversation as well. I think it is far more productive for those interested in BA to look at what positives the BA offer and how to build a pure BA list against the rest of the field rather than figuring out whether BA or some other codex is less bad.

It's more of an academic exercise. There are plenty of pure BA lists and unit suggestions on these boards. The BA are quite popular, but their codex is pretty lame right now.

Most of the BA positives are situational, which leaves the BA dependent upon being able to tailor lists.

BA still has some advantages that other (Marine) armies don't.

- Assault Marines as troops (fast moving)
- Other JP units that are rather useful (Sang Guard)
- Land Raiders as transports
- Red Thirst
- Fragiosos

I'm not saying that they are worth the higher point cost, but our codex still has some nice tricks that can be used.

 soomemafia wrote:
BA still has some advantages that other (Marine) armies don't.

- Assault Marines as troops (fast moving)
- Other JP units that are rather useful (Sang Guard)
- Land Raiders as transports
- Red Thirst
- Fragiosos

I'm not saying that they are worth the higher point cost, but our codex still has some nice tricks that can be used.

I would add priests to that list as well. I don't think there are as many armies with such wide ranging access to FNP.

^True enough.

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

BT are not necessarly worse then BA. It's all opinion. I think BT are better because my play style says so. Sister which is usually said to be 40k expert wasn't even listed. It's because they have powerful units that stand out just like BA. BT have the emperors champion which can wreck. They can take thousand of LRC if they want. There chaplains are good. The best available tech marine. Can give almost everything a special skill. Every gets a special vow. (rage to whole army). Move forward when shot. Heck there fearless in CC. Ya there more expensive but in certain builds they can sucessed just like sisters and just like BA.