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What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

BA are better than Black Templars. That's all I have to say about that.

Black Templars and....squats?

Thats about it...

"better than" in terms of what? threads like this usually spiral into flame wars or unsubstantiated opinions.

Clarification would help.

Sisters of Battle, maybe? You've still got a couple good options, but you're an entirely dedicated assault army in an edition that hates assault. Even Orks have Lootas and Space Wolves have Long Fangs. You've got... Um... Bolt guns?

I'm guessing "better than" in terms of codex quality. There's no need for flame wars. Just objective assessments. The only answer I can give with a clear conscience is Black Templars.

And why black templars is the question I must pose back?

Yes I mean in tactical potential/competitiveness.

Well, they are Space Marines, so that elevates them right there. In terms of potential, its mostly up to the player.

Divination librarians is one major reason. Access to FNP.

They're better than BT because BT are using 4th ed pricing and rules. BA simply have better options at their disposal.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Sisters of Battle, maybe? You've still got a couple good options, but you're an entirely dedicated assault army in an edition that hates assault. Even Orks have Lootas and Space Wolves have Long Fangs. You've got... Um... Bolt guns?

Even then sisters have exorcists which are pretty epic, I do hate scrolling through a PDF codex though.

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

The added dimension of allies makes it very hard to say who the best/worst armies are. For example if you are only looking at pure forces (i.e without allies) then BA are definitely better than Sisters, but once the Sisters bring some Guard allies along for the ride then they are probably stronger than any combination that BA can do. But yeah BA are not in a good place at the moment, they are definitely down at the bottom of the pile with Orks, Templars and Dark Eldar as one of the weaker armies. Its mostly due to their troops being terrible, Jumpers just don't have anywhere near the punch they need to carry an army (and are too expensive to use as deckchairs), Razorspam is too fragile and Rhino rush is long dead. The best BA list I have seen recently was a crazy one which ran 3 Stormravens and a bunch of Frag Cannon Furiosos in Pods (they go in the Ravens if the Pods aren't going to acheive anything), but its incredibly unbalanced and definitely not something I would recommend.

The added dimension of play styles affects playability even more. My buddy who pkays Blood Angels plays it rather different than most I have seen does very well with it.

Relapse wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
What tactics, if any, make them better than the army/armies you listed?

Thank-you to Martel732 for giving me the idea for this thread.

Like any other army, I'd it depends on the skill of the player using them and his army build for the game.

We're factoring that out. Given skill as equal, then rate the BA.

well, access to chaplain/apothecaries in every unit is good. Death company with power weapons are good. librarian dreadnoughts with wings are good. a chance at getting furious charge is good.

LIbby dreads, for their price, are really not all that.

then you're not doing it right.

I think black Templar can be good. I roll up in my all dedicated land raider crusaders and assault out of them. (I don't do it but it sounds awesome)

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
then you're not doing it right.

OH!!!! It's on now!

Please explain load outs, deployment tactics and power selections to make a 175+ point AV13 melee dread even remotely relevant.

Best load out IMO; Force axe, powers are wings and 5+ cover bubble. That way you can cast both powers each turn, since you use the warp charge from your opponent's turn to cast shield and wings to move you up.

He works best, in theory, in a jumper list. As it's able to keep pace with jumpers and provide at least some melee support, even though it has a paltry 4 attacks on the charge. The problem of course is the lack other armored targets to create armor saturation for him in this style of list. Putting him into a heavier vehicle list (Baals, preds/vindis, more dreads...etc) means the dread itself lacks the support it needs to dig itself out of larger units. Even a 10 man squad of marines can potentially tarpit him for 5+ phases.

I mean...what's it even GOOD against? It cannot challenge like a wraithlord can (for some reason?) so he can't take out the fists/melta bombs targetting him, he lacks the attacks to cut through infantry units in any quantity. He lacks the initiative to apply his force weapon to monstrous creatures before getting buried. No ranged attacks to speak of. Limited to no utility.....I mean, a single thunderwolf with a thunderhammer and storm shield is more consistent and more overall damage, and won't die to a single melta-gun shot either.

There's other loadouts I suppose...maybe a drop-pod and divination combo? But you do pretty much squat on arrival and have to pray your opponent doesn't just walk out of melee range of you.....

I don't see how anyone could think these are competitive compared to other options out there.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
then you're not doing it right.

For 175 pts, there is no way to "do it right". I'm sick of hearing this about BA. When everything costs more than its actually worth in a battlefield situation, there is no way to "do it right".

As far as I know, the libby dread is only good at catching lascannon fire from Vendettas.

contrary to everyone's lists, not everyone has Vendettas...

I have been hammered multiple times by "non-competitve" armies, like Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Tyranids; some of which were not the same unimaginative net-lists. That's what makes threads like this just as unimaginative. Good armies suffer with poor play, and a great player can make even Orks into a competitive army.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
contrary to everyone's lists, not everyone has Vendettas...

I have been hammered multiple times by "non-competitve" armies, like Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Tyranids; some of which were not the same unimaginative net-lists. That's what makes threads like this just as unimaginative. Good armies suffer with poor play, and a great player can make even Orks into a competitive army.

The same great player would be better off with another army, though.

Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
contrary to everyone's lists, not everyone has Vendettas...

I have been hammered multiple times by "non-competitve" armies, like Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Tyranids; some of which were not the same unimaginative net-lists. That's what makes threads like this just as unimaginative. Good armies suffer with poor play, and a great player can make even Orks into a competitive army.

The same great player would be better off with another army, though.

Why? to stay "viable", "competitive", and all the other trite terms for a one-click army?

Codex-wise, we still have a lot of options to pick from that aren't necessarily what spring to mind when you think Blood Angels. We still have vanilla Dreadnoughts, Predators, Whirlwinds, Tactical squads, Sternguard, Scouts, Bikes, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, Land Raiders (and easily available ones at that)...we do have viable units.

What we don't have is a useful unique *thing* to set them apart that almost every other army has (with the possible exception of vanilla Marines if you don't take a character with Chapter Tactics). The unique things we do have are overcosted now that 6th edition has nerfed the rules they use. While Fast vehicles are nice to have, they end up costing us extra thereby meaning we get to take less vehicles overall.

Overall, I can't comment on Black Templars having not read the Codex. So the only Codex I can say we're better than is Orks, not because we have a better Codex necessarily, but because we have a lot of tools for taking on Orks that they don't have much reply to.
Our Devastators are relatively cheap if you take the mob-handling options like missile launchers or heavy bolters. Land Raider Crusaders and Baal Predators can put out a lot of firepower and Orks don't have that many things that can reliably take out the Land Raider's AV14 in return. Death Company and blendernaughts still make an absolute mess of your average Boyz mob, and we have easy access to lots of flamer weapons, even down to a pistol version. Lastly, one of our biggest nerfs - the loss of +1 Initiative from Furious Charge - isn't an issue against most Orks anyway.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

Better terminators (more special weapons for them), and I think even speeders were cheaper, but I might be wrong about the last one.

BA is better than.. Well not definently sisters, their churchmobiles are horrible to play against. And so is Celestine..

So this thread is now going to degenerate into everyone defending their favorite book... just like every thread like this one. Thank you, warpspider89...

 Shan1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not sure if they are better than any other faction. I think that even BT are better

What does BT do that BA can't do better except for ginormous blob squads?

Better terminators (more special weapons for them), and I think even speeders were cheaper, but I might be wrong about the last one.

BA is better than.. Well not definently sisters, their churchmobiles are horrible to play against. And so is Celestine..

Indeed, that's what I'm thinking. BT Terminators are great and make up for a decent list with 5 Termie squads.