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 ravengatorfan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Like models in Stormavens are safe? So you can reserve 400+ pts in a list with poor model count? Go ahead

Uh, yeah. I'm talking about BA ranked against all possible lists against competitive builds. It doesn't destroy the debate. It's a look at which lists you can say the BA are better than. So far, we have: BT.

BT are not necessarly worse then BA. It's all opinion. I think BT are better because my play style says so. Sister which is usually said to be 40k expert wasn't even listed. It's because they have powerful units that stand out just like BA. BT have the emperors champion which can wreck. They can take thousand of LRC if they want. There chaplains are good. The best available tech marine. Can give almost everything a special skill. Every gets a special vow. (rage to whole army). Move forward when shot. Heck there fearless in CC. Ya there more expensive but in certain builds they can sucessed just like sisters and just like BA.

BA get divination, a couple good codex powers, and FNP tricks. Not sure if that's better than the BT stuff or not.

Ya and I can make a huge bubble were no magic effects me and a better deny the witch. On all units.

Okay we might asxwell go through the slots and identify the best units are try to identify synergies that we can utilise in creating a TAC list.

Hq is easy.
Librarians have always looked good as a hq for BA, sure they're cheaper in other codexes now but I think the BA libby still represents the best value for points and as also noted he gives us access to divination.

So how best to utilise this Hq and what he brings to the table? I haven't tried this specifically but I'm looking at Dev squads. Specifically Las-Devs in a bastion with ML Devs on the roof (second squad needs extra bodies to sponge wounds as units on a rooftop can be target) add a priest (perhaps manning the quad) and you've got a preety solid firebase, I know you can only givedivination to one squad at a time but still.

Yhe reason I picked Devs is I find our Heavy slots very uninspiring, a
our tanks and normal dread seem too fragile, yeah the fast is nice but it comes at a premium which I dont think is worth it...wellmaybe on the pred but I think returns will be beteer on the Devs. If I was gonna fill the last heavy slot I'd probably go for the Whirlwind for the ignores ckver at range.

Anyone else got suggestions for a HQ and how to synigise them?

D

 ravengatorfan wrote:
Ya and I can make a huge bubble were no magic effects me and a better deny the witch. On all units.

Abhor the Witch is horrible, though. In a similar vein, if the Emperor's Champion "wrecks" stuff you're probably fighting basic kooks, because a 2 wound dude with an AP3 weapon isn't exactly impressive.

Troops-wise, Templars don't get grenades and more or less are forced to take Chaplains if you're on foot unless the unit in question is a lasplas-squad or if it's in a Drop Pod.

Speaking of lasplas-squads, they're guaranteed to run off objectives if they take a casualty unless you go to ground, in which case they're firing snap shots. Blood Angels can get objective-camping Scouts, can't they?

fuhrmaaj wrote:
BA are better than any army who can't have wings on their shoulder pads.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can almost get 10 BA Devestators with Missile Launchers for the cost of 5 BT Terminators with dual CMLs and Tank Hunters. If the problem with BA is that everything is expensive then the problem with BT is that everything is expensive and most of it isn't that good. Dual CML Terminators are solid, but that's it. If you think BA Troops choices suck, check out the BT Codex. If you think BA have issues getting into CC, try Templars. If you think BA HQ choices are expensive for little gain, try Templars. BA have better Troops, better HQs, better Fast Attack and better Heavy Support than Black Templars. The dual CML/Assault Cannon loadouts for Terminators singlehandedly carries the Elite slot to victory for the Templars, but not by much.

I guess the issue to consider when debating what's better between BA and BT is that most of the options are bad. So saying that BA have better troops because BA marines have Red Thirst and BT marines move 3" towards the enemy when they lose a model sounds goofy when you consider that marines are terrible. If we weren't looking at allies at all, then I think I'd rather have BT Troops because you can include a heavy weapon for every 5 marines and if you want ablative wounds then you can include cheap scouts instead of expensive marines which are already terrible.

Really the debate to me isn't, "which is less terrible" so much as, "understanding that both armies are terrible, who can mitigate the bad to include the good" and if I get small marine squads with heavy weapons and BT termies then I'm happy. Also Land Speeder Typhoons (with the Typhoon missile launcher) are 20 pts cheaper in a BT army than any other SM army I'm aware of and the Land Raiders are the exact same. The only drawback I see is that there aren't any flyers and every BT list is going to look similar in order to maximize the good choices and negate the bad.

I haven't seen a non-Death Company and Mephiston army in a while, but iirc BA can take Land Raiders as a dedicated transport for marines, so to optimize BA I guess you take 3 Heavy Support choices and as many Land Raiders as you can cram into the points limit. I'm sure there are some armies who won't have a good answer to this, but I think most armies could deal with this even if they didn't know it was coming.

Either way, I think it's agreed that BA are pretty much bottom of the heap. I think a more interesting question might have been "What are BA good at?" or "What are good options in the BA army?" because the original question is very open and has drawn arguments which defend marines or who focus on the bad aspects of a 5th ed codex rather than what is still good (or at least better than vanilla marines). Also it's fruitless to discuss allies in a debate like this, but if you're considering how to actually play BA then you'll probably have a lot more success by including allies. Basically what I'm trying to ask is, "How does one salvage the BA codex?"

The reasons I'm saying that BA Troops are better are:
For 2 points more than a BT Marine (18 vs 16) you get both types of grenades, a jump pack and swap the option of a heavy weapon for an additional assault weapon. You also get to take 2 specials and a special CCW; Templars get 1 special weapon and a choice of either a melee weapon or heavy weapon, and no combi- or Infernus options.

For objective-camping you get 5 sniper Scouts with cloaks and a Missile Launcher for a comparable cost to a lasplas; you'll be weaker offensively, but you won't run off your vantage point in terrain or on an objective just because you lost one model.

The best comparison, however, is a Drop Pod squad. Without gear, 10 Crusaders in a Drop Pod is 190 points. 10 Assault Marines in a Drop Pod is, correct me if I'm wrong, 180 points. BA get Grenades, Templars don't. Same deal with other transports, except Templars don't ever use Razorbacks and rarely use Rhinoes.

Lastly, Righteous Zeal really isn't a positive unless you're running a Blob with a Chaplain; being forced closer to the enemy during their turn means that you're more often than not HELPING them get the charge when they shoot you, or moving down from a ruin where you'd parked your Lascannon.

Well, for such a "Bad Codex" as Martel keeps putting it out there, the BA players did well at the last Throne of Skulls, only losing out to the Tyrranids (once again) on best painted army. of the BA players, one won all 5 games, another won 4.

Of course, yanks like Martel will immediately reply that "The British don't play as competitively" but that theory does not hold water.

Well throne of skulls isn't as competitive as many of the US tournaments. You can see that by the scoring style (not to mention the inclusion of the relic).
I believe BA won the January ToS, with a rather standard list. But one tournament win, especially with such a format as ToS isn't enough to take them out of the "gak tier" codex rank.

Actually, I'm very interested to know how these winning lists beat Tau or Eldar. Assuming they played Tau or Eldar. Also, not being able to overcome Tyranids is not horribly encouraging.

Well, the scoring style does not phase me, I don't have a problem with a well painted army being rewarded with bonus points, or getting points for being a good opponent.

Once again, I've never had a problem facing CSM, Nids, Eldar, or Orks with them, Necrons can be difficult, but in games with them it usually comes down to last man standing in my meta. To be fair I was a WO2, and have been wargaming since the early 80's, maybe it is an experience thing.

All I can say is "A poor workman blames their tools"

"All I can say is "A poor workman blames their tools"

I thought you had experience with GW games. I find it a bit hard to believe that you've "never had a problem" with the new Eldar codex. I've been reduced down to 2 models in 3 turns by that codex.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I'm very interested to know how these winning lists beat Tau or Eldar. Assuming they played Tau or Eldar. Also, not being able to overcome Tyranids is not horribly encouraging.

Whats giving you grief in the eldar codex?

The fact that the Eldar show up, roll 80 S6 attacks, and I pick up all my models. That's giving me grief. Oh, I'm sorry, 80 S6 attacks that reroll to hit. And have buffed armor. Or whatever the farseer rolled up that day.

Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot. Or ignore cover and shoot pathifinders/farseers/autarchs with the mantle. Or hurt monstrous creatures on a 2+.

Vanguard vets. Drop down, only scatter d6 then charge and kill a unit. Or krak grenade a wave serpent to death. No serpent shields on the rear armour.

Baal Pred. Outflank or scout and ruin an ADL/wraithguard squad/anything that relies on cover.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective/s as far towards theirs as possible. reduce the distance to travel before violence can occur. Leap on them. Profit.
ASM's can then be nearer to wreck vehicles.

All of this can be done in the first two turns.

As has been said before, mephiston punks wraithknights/wraithlords.

Eldar got new shiny in the codex, but they still fight the same. So use your 36" range vindicator and your predator with the ability to hide out of LOS and then move and fire all of your guns and the fnp bubbles you can put everywhere.
Cancel all of your opponants s6 shooting by leaving corbulo out the front as a tempting target and getting them to shoot him instead.

The only marine army I've ever had trouble with was BA - my eldar run rings round the rest of the slower sm's.

Any Eldar unit with the shuriken rule, a scatter laser, or a star cannon pretty much. There's too far too many for the BA to take them out fast enough in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective as far towards theirs as possible.

That's making the assumption that I'm playing a drop list. Sounds great until the drop list runs into chaos demons or Tyranids. Remember, I'm not tailoring here as I have no opportunity to tailor.

And the melta trick only really works if you get to go first. Once the serpents start moving, they are almost pointless to shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In Mephiston going in a TAC list? I think not. Or how about Vanguard vets? It's not just the Eldar. It's the fact that the Eldar are really effective against BA TAC lists. And can make them go away frustratingly quickly.

All my lists don't have Corbulo, either. Are you proposing that they should?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well, the scoring style does not phase me, I don't have a problem with a well painted army being rewarded with bonus points, or getting points for being a good opponent.

Once again, I've never had a problem facing CSM, Nids, Eldar, or Orks with them, Necrons can be difficult, but in games with them it usually comes down to last man standing in my meta. To be fair I was a WO2, and have been wargaming since the early 80's, maybe it is an experience thing.

All I can say is "A poor workman blames their tools"

Never had a problem with triple helldrake? Not once? Oh, let me guess, no one in your meta has triple helldrake.

Martel732 wrote:
Any Eldar unit with the shuriken rule, a scatter laser, or a star cannon pretty much. There's too far too many for the BA to take them out fast enough in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective as far towards theirs as possible.

That's making the assumption that I'm playing a drop list. Sounds great until the drop list runs into chaos demons or Tyranids. Remember, I'm not tailoring here as I have no opportunity to tailor.

And the melta trick only really works if you get to go first. Once the serpents start moving, they are almost pointless to shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In Mephiston going in a TAC list? I think not. Or how about Vanguard vets? It's not just the Eldar. It's the fact that the Eldar are really effective against BA TAC lists. And can make them go away frustratingly quickly.

All my lists don't have Corbulo, either. Are you proposing that they should?

Corbulo is a nightmare to get through. It's not worth shooting at him with anything less than st8. He tanks way too much and can get his re-roll if he needs to. He also laughs at shuriken ammo on 6's and starcannons. He can make a unit almost unkillable unless you're using serious points.

The melta sternguard works well against nids too - they have mc's to shoot with them ansd the rest have and hellfire ammo.

When the wave serpents are moving, they get a 4+ cover save. The serpent shield doesn't cover the rear armour and they're only armour 10 so even your bolters will hurt them - use the cover ignoring ammo and a couple of melta shots in the rear armour and they'll drop so much faster than people expect.

How much are 5 vanguard vets - are they less than 315pts? thats what they could take out wave serpent wise in the turn they drop. They are only limited against nid's - against any other army, the ability to drop down and Krak something to death straight away is nasty.









Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rather than true TAC, I'd take a list with the ability to ignore cover/beat 3+ armour.

Accept that horde armies will give you a tough match and then hammer everyone else

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot. Or ignore cover and shoot pathifinders/farseers/autarchs with the mantle. Or hurt monstrous creatures on a 2+.

Vanguard vets. Drop down, only scatter d6 then charge and kill a unit. Or krak grenade a wave serpent to death. No serpent shields on the rear armour.

Baal Pred. Outflank or scout and ruin an ADL/wraithguard squad/anything that relies on cover.

Take an av13 dread. Laugh as nothing short of dedicated anti tank does anything to it.

Objective placement - let them go first, then put your objective/s as far towards theirs as possible. reduce the distance to travel before violence can occur. Leap on them. Profit.
ASM's can then be nearer to wreck vehicles.

All of this can be done in the first two turns.

As has been said before, mephiston punks wraithknights/wraithlords.

Eldar got new shiny in the codex, but they still fight the same. So use your 36" range vindicator and your predator with the ability to hide out of LOS and then move and fire all of your guns and the fnp bubbles you can put everywhere.
Cancel all of your opponants s6 shooting by leaving corbulo out the front as a tempting target and getting them to shoot him instead.

The only marine army I've ever had trouble with was BA - my eldar run rings round the rest of the slower sm's.

So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

2.) Your 10 Vanguard kill one serpent when they drop and then likely get shot to death and/or moved away from.

I'm not saying it is an auto loss but a lot of your tactics assume better than average rolling, and stupidity by your opponent (Corbulo.... Eldar Move, different model is closest, open fire.)

My marine army is painted a non standard color scheme specifically so that I'm able to run whichever codex compliments the list I'm building. That being said I choose to run BA marines 95% of the time.

One point needs to be made now though, I nearly NEVER run them without allies.

BA troops suck, they are expensive, die like any other shmoe 3+, are expensive, are filled with player traps (DoA and sang preists are begging you to make tactical mistakes or over spend on units), they are also expensive.

Hq choices are poor. The only ones I ever use are a libby (which DA and other 6th ed codexs do much cheaper) and Meph.

There is more but that is enough to make a pure BA list have an uphill battle.

Things they do well in my experience and there may be others But these are units that work well with my play style:

Fragnaughts in pods. 1 is an auto take IMO. They deal decent to awesome damage depending on the enemy, but the enemy Must devote a substantial amount of firepower to remove it from him deployment zone or he'll continue his rampage.

Fast vindicators. 36" threat range str 10 ap 2 pie plate is pretty damn good on an AV 13 platform. These fall into the must kill right now category

Death company... most lists I see people make mistakes with overspending one them. 2 to 3 power axes in 6 to 8 man squad is all you need. And no chaplin, they are expensive, gives the MCs and ICs you want to kill a reprive while they kill him, and you dont need the rerolls. You really don't.

Land raiders as DT. A few other books have them too but it can be helpfull if running vindis and SRs to some AV 14. Plus they are counter meta ATM.

Death company blender dread from a storm raven. This one is a lot more situational but if you have meph in a raven try one of these out. They are less prone to uslessness on crashing. The ignore shaken and stun results help if your SR gets shot down. They chew anything 3+ or worse
They do tarpit other non power fist 2+ troops well too. Broadsides, chaos terms, etc.

All that said BA needs massed small arms fire and higher wound per point scoring units. This can be done very well with allies.

When saying Blood angels and competitive in the same sentance, the words "with allied" should be In the one following it. If you dont like allies dont whine about competitiveness of the book. A large portion of top lists use allies, BA should too.

Tldr: use the good units BA have and ally away the weaknesses.

Breng77 wrote:
So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

2.) Your 10 Vanguard kill one serpent when they drop and then likely get shot to death and/or moved away from.

I'm not saying it is an auto loss but a lot of your tactics assume better than average rolling, and stupidity by your opponent (Corbulo.... Eldar Move, different model is closest, open fire.)

1) Why only 5 shots? rapid firing bolters glance rear armour on 6's so go for hull points too. Put some combi meltas in there give them a couple of melta shots to the rear armour (where there is no serpent shield). One should be saved, the other will almost auto pen (needs a 5+ on 2d6)and then you have to roll a 4+ to kill the vehicle and probably half the squad inside if its wrecked. Its a gamble I'd take every time.

2)can you not take vanguards in 5's as a distraction unit?

Drop pods negate eldar speed. Why go fast when your enemy drops out of the sky wherever he likes. Which is always behind tanks.

Breng77 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Calm it down a bit

Sternguard in a drop pod. Fragioso in a drop pod.

Bring the sternguard in turn one, take loads of melta, combat squad them as they get out, kill two tanks before they even shoot. Or ignore cover and shoot pathifinders/farseers/autarchs with the mantle. Or hurt monstrous creatures on a 2+.

So a few issues here

1.) 10 Sternaguard in a pod combat squading unlikely kill 2 Wave serpents: 5 shots hit 3.33 times, pen/glance 1.94 times, both likely reduced to glances. If the eldar go first they care even less with 4+ cover. You are better off with Plasma with each squad doing 2.222 damage results.

The shield doesnt work on rear armor, so they drop down, 5 melta shots. 3.3 hits, 3.2 pens(if in melta range), cover saves 1.6 pens. Still enough to likely wreck with +2 on the damage roll.

Getting 2 WS rear armor in melta range is tough, but shooting them in the rear is the way to go.

If you get first turn, theres not even a cover save. They have to move to claim jink - rear armour on turn one is just straight AV10 with no protection.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well, for such a "Bad Codex" as Martel keeps putting it out there, the BA players did well at the last Throne of Skulls, only losing out to the Tyrranids (once again) on best painted army. of the BA players, one won all 5 games, another won 4.

Of course, yanks like Martel will immediately reply that "The British don't play as competitively" but that theory does not hold water.

I'm curious what the list entailed... what are the chances they were running Guard or Tau allies?

Take two Tau and call me in the morning.

Is it just me or do these list adjustments being suggested to counter Eldar seem like suicide against CSM? If every opponent I fought were Eldar, I'd consider this a lot more valuable.

As serious suggestions (without suggesting Meph in a storm raven for the lols) in a tac list, I'd still have 2 pods, sternguard in one, a dread in the other, Corbulo and a baal pred with the flamestorm.

Corbulo is great against strength 7 or less - los anything st8 onto the nearest man behind you. Hes arguably better at tanking st7> than the 2+ re-reollable cover save the mantle of the eldar gives you because it doesn't care about cover ignoring weapons. He's also good for slowing down heldrakes - they can vector strike, but if they flame him he'll tank the lot and probably not die. You may not even lose a man from it at all.
Baal Pred with the flamestorm is still effective as its av13 - its not going to be stopped by the normal adl interceptor weapons. It also melts everything behind an adl. If you get first turn, scout move forwards and burn, if you go second outflank.
Sternguard with melta in a pod are useful as turn one, you can come down and break your opponants favourite toy - its like playing chess - swap them for your opponants 'queen'.
Look at what his army has got and kill the biggest threat.
If you miss on the deep strike, use corbulo's re-roll to try the scatter dice again - it's another chance to roll a hit.

An av13 dread in a pod with a melta is also useful as it can maybe melta a tank and then forces your opponant to react to it - next turn it'll charge and no-one likes BA dreadnoughts charging them. It'll attract an inordinate amount of firepower.
You can also drop it down facing the front of an adl and maybe make your opponant waste his interceptor. AV 13 is nice on a dread Then at the start of your shooting phase, turn it to shoot whatever you like.
Just make sure that you're nowhere near high fire power weaponry (out of los is good too).

None of that can be stopped by a heldrake.
Anyway, thats what I'd do

Martel732 wrote:
Take two Tau and call me in the morning.

Is it just me or do these list adjustments being suggested to counter Eldar seem like suicide against CSM? If every opponent I fought were Eldar, I'd consider this a lot more valuable.

Mhmm, I play Wolves and while Pods might be great for helping with Serpent Spam, I find that Rhinos give me more tactical flexibility against most opponents. That's the problem with making a TAC list these days though, you'll get screwed versus certain armies.

It's funny, but I have a list that has a) sternguard w/corbulo and libby in a pod b) fragnought in pod and c) Baal with flamestorm.

I've won some with this list, but one issue this list has is good bubble wrapping. I've proxyed plasmas for the meltas and found that it doesn't help that much. Most folks where I play has a ton of experience against drop pod marines. Also, I think I have a better win rate with my shooty list. I think a lot of that is when I play people that haven't seen it before, they don't expect BA to run away and shoot.

Also, if we are talking Eldar, there is often no single stand out unit that is an obvious target for sternguard. Plus, sternguard are very expensive, and so "swapping" is rarely a good plan, as they are also your most dangerous unit.

Also, the heldrake is not there to stop any of the stuff you listed. They are there to hoover up your scoring units. Which I notice you haven't discussed yet.

Martel732 wrote:
It's funny, but I have a list that has a) sternguard w/corbulo and libby in a pod b) fragnought in pod and c) Baal with flamestorm.

I've won some with this list, but one issue this list has is good bubble wrapping. I've proxyed plasmas for the meltas and found that it doesn't help that much. Most folks where I play has a ton of experience against drop pod marines.

Also, if we are talking Eldar, there is often no single stand out unit that is an obvious target for sternguard. Plus, sternguard are very expensive, and so "swapping" is rarely a good plan, as they are also your most dangerous unit.

Also, the heldrake is not there to stop any of the stuff you listed. They are there to hoover up your scoring units. Which I notice you haven't discussed yet.

I like your list
With the eldar you could go for a wraithknight or whatever wave serpents they've got. Or take out their long range guns and then out range them - apart from fire prisms and serpent shields theres not that much with a massive range. Or go for the prize and nail the farseer - eldar players really hate losing them early.

In general
Ruin your opponants ground game on turn 1 or 2 - Heldrakes can't take objectives. I'd keep corbulo on the ground and the libby too - there's no point sacrificing more than you need to with a suicide drop. This means you can advance behind corbulo and use him as a human 'fnp givin' shield
Scoring units for the BA suffer from the same problems as normal marines and they're overpriced, but they can get fnp which means you won't die as fast as normal marines. You only need one man to hold an objective. And if you've got a dread or a baal predator in your opponants backline then that'll take some of the heavy weapons off them.



Turn one, they'll go for your sternguard. Turn 2, they'll have to go for a baal and a dread, turn three you're hopefully where you need to be

I still seem to run out of models really quickly against Tau or Eldar. I had one turn against Eldar where he killed two AV 11 vehicles and 19 meqs. It's really hard to get anywhere against that. He can just ignore the dreadnought at that point because all your marines are dead.

"Turn one, they'll go for your sternguard. Turn 2, they'll have to go for a baal and a dread, turn three you're hopefully where you need to be"

Uhhh that's what I've been trying to say. They kill a *lot* more than that each turn.

Ouch - that sounds like he rolled well. Theres not much you can do about hot dice. So make him pay - nail his troops in return. You're back on equal footing if you stop him scoring too - If you've got first blood (sternguard are good at that), keep your warlord safe and thats sometimes enough.

I fought to a draw in my last game (I was chaos against BA) at the end of the game there were no troops left - he got first blood, I got slay the warlord.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Ouch - that sounds like he rolled well. Theres not much you can do about hot dice. So make him pay - nail his troops in return. You're back on equal footing if you stop him scoring too - If you've got first blood, keep your warlord safe and thats sometimes enough.

I fought to a draw in my last game (I was chaos against BA) at the end of the game there were no troops left - he got first blood, I got slay the warlord.

No, he rolled about average, perhaps a bit lower than average. Have you *read* the Eldar codex? The guy killed me down to 2 models in 3 turns. I can't hit back that hard. They roll out of bed and have double marines' firepower without trying hard.

No I have never read the eldar codex - I make all my rules up as I go along and walk round with my eyes shut

What was his list?

He had two squad of warwalkers, a wraithknight, some rangers, a waveserpent of firedragons, a wave serpent of dire avengers, a farseer, some dudes on bikes that I guess were warlocks? Do Eldar still do that? Basically, the scatter lasers twin linking everything else on top of being a broken (imo) weapon is nuts. I was hoping they'd nerf the scatter laser. That was dumb on my part.

Basically, there's too much stuff for a sternguard and a fragnought to engage. Come to think of it, I think he did roll above average with the rangers. But still. The firepower the Eldar can field is insane.

I fought another Eldar list with my shooty list and that went 2 turns before we called it. It's very hard to win with no models.