I know this has been asked alot but I haven't been able to find the thread so anyway....

I have some Dark Angels that im bringing to a Apocalypse game where the chaos legions are bringing there Primachs so i think the Lion needs to make an appearance.

Since some rules have already been released I can kinda wing my way through some home-brew rules.

Now to the fluff questions...

How would you rank the Primachs in fighting ability? (this is a straight up 1v1, not tactics or psykic powers)

Would this list include daemon primarchs? or just pre heresy?

Not looking at daemon primarchs...I am looking for a "pre" and "still going on" Horus Heresy.

I know some are fairly obvious, but since I am not very far in the HH novels I am having difficulty placing a few.

They're still so far above normal Marines it's pretty absurd. I mean, they're total beasts in armor, they're really, really fast too, some of them have over the top psychic powers, while others are downright resistant to any type of damage whatsoever. Oh, and the strongest can toss around tanks, I'd imagine the weaker ones could still lay a boot on a tank and send it flying if they tried.

If you're going by novel fluff, I'd expect them to have crazy stats and perhaps a ton of special rules. Forge World supposedly released some Primarch rules for their HH series already, and I'm sure a few dakkanauts could point you to where those rules can be found, exactly.

The GW core studio has also released stats for ascended Angron as part of the Armageddon scenario (available as a PDF on their website here, scroll to page 3) which were a bit lower than those from FW, so I'd expect GW's versions of the Primarchs to be somewhat less "epic" scaled as well. It may depend on whether you'd prefer the legendary supermen from the novels or the more gritty version from the Codex writers' own interpretation. I would assume the latter to work better in a game, though, due to an overall smaller gap between them and the troops they command.

The Codex would undoubtedly have to introduce some balancing aspects, yeah. If you're going for awe-inspiring supermen from an age of unparalleled expansion in Humanity's history...go for the fluff.

If you're going by fluff, their stats are pretty damn ridiculous. When they fight regular SMs, it's barely a fight at all. In warplate, they can tear Terminators apart, maybe even with their bare hands. I think they heal pretty quickly too (faster than their sons).

If you're going to play them, though, you'd probably want more accurate info than the fluff.

Just use Fulgrim for Betrayal. He is the closest Primarch with rules so far.

The Primarch of the XI legion was the biggest badass of all. He was erased form the histories because he totally pwned his bros.

I dont think they will have to be super uber, they are good but even Dorn died on a starship during a Black Crusade.

According to the primarchs already released(horus, mortorion, fulgrim, and angron) where would the Lion stack up in fighting with those guys?

Some ideas: Wounds 10, It will not die, Strength 9, Initiative 5, Fearless, Toughness 8, Counts as a massive teleport homer, everything from their codex has ATWKNF ect... Just make sure they cost loads

Hazard30 wrote:I dont think they will have to be super uber, they are good but even Dorn died on a starship during a Black Crusade.

That's my opinion as well - I don't buy the myth-based fluff that has them carve entire mountains in two, flipping Titans with their arms, or just shrug off plasma immolation. This is purely personal preferences, though, and a lot of fans seem to dig such things. Either way, I would be sceptical what effect such rules would have on the TT. When you're running "Movie Primarchs" you may as well run "Movie Marines". But would that truly make for a fun game? Or one that appears fluffy to both sides? Plot armour doesn't work as well if it's applied to both armies.

 Doomsdave wrote:
The Primarch of the XI legion was the biggest badass of all. He was erased form the histories because he totally pwned his bros.

Apparently she was awesome

I think they OP was asking for a ranking in terms of fluff. Right?
Alas, that's hard to do, since they are all badass in their own novels, ofc, they have unique approaches to fighting (Magnus is terrifying because of his psychic powers, without them..noone knows), and they change throughout the crusade and the heresy. Lorgar was considered weak in the beginning , but got stronger along with gaining confidence. They aren't enough 1v1 fights to really form a complete picture.

That said, Leman Russ is Batman and can defeat anyone (yes, even the actual Batman-expy Night Haunter)

EDit: spoilers

In a one on fight using just martial prowess, Lion El'Jonson was one of the best. I agree with Stonerhino as The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs.

"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"

...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".

I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.

VensersRevenge wrote:
In a one on fight using just martial prowess, Lion El'Jonson was one of the best. I agree with Stonerhino as The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs.

Khan ? Read the WS...He is even more badass then Fulgrim.....

Hazard30 wrote:

How would you rank the Primachs in fighting ability? (this is a straight up 1v1, not tactics or psykic powers)

I'm not really sure about a number of them but I would start off a ranking something like this. Almost all of them are pretty badass, so average in this case is kind of dubious.



Horus at or near the top
Angron at or near the top

Sanguinius top tier
Fulgim possessed top tier
Russ top tier

Kruze slightly above average(dude fights dirty)
Khan slightly above average
Lion slightly above average

Corax, Guiliam, Perterbo, Dorn, Ferrus mid level

Fulgrim unpossessed slightly below average

Mortorn lower tier
Alparius-Omegan lower tier when alone (but there are two of them)
Vulkan lower tier

Magnus near the bottom

Lorgar at or near the bottom


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KhornedBeef wrote:
"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"

...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".

I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.

yeah, Angron was a gladiator the match or more for any of the primarchs if you take away psykic powers and other skills. The embodied close combat of all types.

KhornedBeef wrote:
"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"

...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".

I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.

Notice I said swordmaster. I highly doubt Angron qualifies as a "master". I'm pretty sure his fighting style boils down to: hack wildly with an axe.



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 DarthMarko wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
In a one on fight using just martial prowess, Lion El'Jonson was one of the best. I agree with Stonerhino as The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs.

Khan ? Read the WS...He is even more badass then Fulgrim.....

Really? I haven't read as much Horus Heresy as I'd like. But again, I said sword master, how did the Khan fight?

I agree with Exergy's rankings, its easier to place them into tier than it is to rank each and every one.

@VensersRevenge: Khan is a sword wielder, as is Sanguinius who I would definitely place above the Lion and pre-possession Fulgrim.

I'm curious if we will see Sanguinius fight Angron at Terra. The old fluff had them making eye contact and staring each other down across the battlefield, but I don't think its been mentioned if they ever actually met during the siege. Sanguinius already has a full plate at Terra anyways, but we'll see.

Guys, after reading Vulkan lives I would rank him pretty high.....


Also I disagree with any kind of rankings...

Some primarchs are pretty smart so they compesate their fightning skill with their brain...Guiliman or Lion for example....

According to Perturabo, Fulgrim was unmatched swordsman and I think he was worse fighter when possesed...

 Orblivion wrote:
I agree with Exergy's rankings, its easier to place them into tier than it is to rank each and every one.

@VensersRevenge: Khan is a sword wielder, as is Sanguinius who I would definitely place above the Lion and pre-possession Fulgrim.

I'm curious if we will see Sanguinius fight Angron at Terra. The old fluff had them making eye contact and staring each other down across the battlefield, but I don't think its been mentioned if they ever actually met during the siege. Sanguinius already has a full plate at Terra anyways, but we'll see.

Prepossessed Fulgrim wasn't anything special. He might have been a perfectionist, and he might be an trained swordsmad, he might be fast but he is weak. Ferrus beats him twice until you take the possession into account and Ferrus was tough but not that tough.

Sanguinius is up there. I would still put Angron above him. Sanguinius can fly and is psykicly attuned but Angron is just a beast. And once they meet on Terra Angron is being blessed/fueled by Khorne to some degree.



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 DarthMarko wrote:

According to Perturabo, Fulgrim was unmatched swordsman and I think he was worse fighter when possesed...

But he loses to Ferrus twice.
Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

Horus is regarded as the best of the primarchs, not only for his "fighting ability" but because horus is extremely intelligent and cunning, it allows him to gain a leg up in battle. This is reflected in the rules within betrayal. Angron is just a brutal, strong beater, so if you don't have a plan he will annihilate you in straight up, savage combat. Fulgrim is a master swordsman. Arguably the best. Because he is incredible he has an extremely high invulnerable save when he assaults. He also gains a disproportionate amount of attacks when he assaults too. So, he is fast. Mortarion isn't necessarily an incredible fighter, but he inspires fear, because he is the living embodiment of death. He is extremely stealthy, which allows his strikes to be swift. Mortarion is extremely resilient, moreso than his brothers, which makes him difficult to kill.

These are just my interpretations of the fluff and the rules from betrayal. Never does simply being good with a sword gain you the upper hand, there are a whole host of variables that factor in to determining who will persevere in a fight. If i were to assume rules for The Lion i would say that he is abrupt in his fighting technique. In a way that Fulgrim would be elegant with his weapon like a Jedi, Lion will fight with efficiency. Masterful, but none of the overstated technique that fulgrim would display. Fulgrim is fast, The Lion is probably stronger.

From what I am gathering atm is that...

Lion is stronger than Fulgrim, but not as strong as Angron.
He is less tough than Montarion but tougher than Fulgrim.
He has the weapon skill on par with Fulgrim, but still not as high as Angron?.

Anything else I am missing?

 Exergy wrote:

Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

So first time Fulgrim kicks Ferrus like a chump, his phoenix guard jumps and kill his elites and the second time he cuts his head off (because he couldn't finish him without being possesed)..

And you count Ferrus 2 wins ??? C'mon, second fight was a bit "magic sword prevailed" - but the first one was pretty straight.....

Here is my pick

1. Horus
2. Angron
3. Lion/Russ/Sang
4. Vulkan,Corax, Khan, Fulgrim
5. The rest

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

So first time Fulgrim kicks Ferrus like a chump, his phoenix guard jumps and kill his elites and the second time he cuts his head off (because he couldn't finish him without being possesed)..

And you count Ferrus 2 wins ??? C'mon, second fight was a bit "magic sword prevailed" - but the first one was pretty straight.....

"Ferrus attempted to use his silvery necrodermis hands to destroy Fulgrim's golden sword Fireblade, but the resulting explosion knocked him unconscious."
I was always under the impression that Ferrus had the upperhand and was going to destroy Fireblade and things didnt go as planned. Kind of funny as he forged fireblade himself, you would think he would know what he was doing.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ferrus_Manus

 Exergy wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.

So first time Fulgrim kicks Ferrus like a chump, his phoenix guard jumps and kill his elites and the second time he cuts his head off (because he couldn't finish him without being possesed)..

And you count Ferrus 2 wins ??? C'mon, second fight was a bit "magic sword prevailed" - but the first one was pretty straight.....

"Ferrus attempted to use his silvery necrodermis hands to destroy Fulgrim's golden sword Fireblade, but the resulting explosion knocked him unconscious."
I was always under the impression that Ferrus had the upperhand and was going to destroy Fireblade and things didnt go as planned. Kind of funny as he forged fireblade himself, you would think he would know what he was doing.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ferrus_Manus

That's just a pure story element. One of the loyalist primarchs needed to die, so Ferrus did. It was a step along Fulgrim's path to daemonhood.

Their depictions in the fluff vary wildly. You can have them surviving titan-level plasma weapons to the face (Lorgar), and bouncing several devastators' squads worth of firepower off their armor (Corax), to being threatened death by a couple of Space Wolf tactical squads (Angron).

Then there is the varied results of their multiple clashes. In their first fight, the Lion started off with a sucker gut-stab, yet the fight ended with Kurze bashing the Lion's head against a rock until both sides interfered and dragged them apart. So you could call that fight a draw, or a minor victory for Kurze. In their second match-up, there were no sucker punches, but the Lion whooped Kurze's ass so bad, the latter ended up in a coma and was assumed dead by his Legion.

Anyway, if we're talking pure combat power (rather than raw power, which is a contest auto-won by Magnus), the top dog is probably Angron, going by comments from other Primarchs and his performance against Russ.

Like Corax said in one of his soliliques, Angron's only competition would be Sanguinius (we see him fight one of Khorne's greatest Bloodthirsters twice, soundly defeating it in the second clash) and Horus (he's supposed to be the bestest at everything).

Fulgrim was also said to be an amazing combatant, and we see him dispatch Ferrus, who was the strongest physically, and Guilliman, who was no slouch somewhat holding his ground against a transforming/ascending, berserk Angron.

So here would be my rankings:

Top Tier, unstoppable death machines - Angron, Sanguinius, Horus

Second Tier, master swordsmen/duelists - the Lion, Fulgrim

Third Tier, wild and unconventional fighters - Kurze, Corax, Russ, Khan (don't really know this guy's real capability, equating him to Russ for simplicity's sake), Ferrus Manus (probably belongs one tier down, but gave Fulgrim a very solid fight, so he jumps up a tier).

Fourth Tier, capable warriors and Primarchs to boot! - Lorgar after his pilgrimage, Guilliman, Vulkan (this guy is only seen briefly before getting blown up by siege engines), Perturabo, Magnus (psychic powers could probably bring his overall combat prowess up to third or even second tier if you consider Russ as having additional resistance/protection against psychic powers which made their fight more even, and really, if you just want to cause the most amount of destruction, deserves a tier all of his own)

Fifth Tier, total pussies if not for the fact that they are a Primarch - Lorgar before his pilgrimage, Dorn (maybe deserves to be one tier up, but all he does is mope about the pretty buildings, gets his gak packed in by Kurze, executes a dying old man, and then gets himself killed by Chaos scrubs on a Space Hulk)

Exergy - but Ferrus loses both times , I'mean you can't count that as his winses ....He tried that gak, he failed...K.O. for Fulgrim...

I always compare this fights with football matches in champions league - You can have a strong team with possesion and high number of shots on target, but here is the catch - they lose, so they can't be counted as winners....

 Lynata wrote:
That's my opinion as well - I don't buy the myth-based fluff that has them carve entire mountains in two, flipping Titans with their arms, or just shrug off plasma immolation. This is purely personal preferences, though, and a lot of fans seem to dig such things. Either way, I would be sceptical what effect such rules would have on the TT. When you're running "Movie Primarchs" you may as well run "Movie Marines". But would that truly make for a fun game? Or one that appears fluffy to both sides? Plot armour doesn't work as well if it's applied to both armies.

I agree largely with Lynata. Fluffwise, I've always wanted to see Phoenix Lords and Primarchs be equals -or near enough as one can get when taking in the variables. Obviously, the fact that Phoenix Lords have standard in-game rules and Primarchs do not discredits this idea, but it's still something that I personally like to think.

Iranna.

Phoenix Lords and Primarchs be equals? Come on. The Primarchs are the greatest generals Mankind has ever known. That'd be like asking SHIELD to be the equal of the Avengers. Not going to happen.

 Omegus wrote:
Their depictions in the fluff vary wildly. You can have them surviving titan-level plasma weapons to the face (Lorgar), and bouncing several devastators' squads worth of firepower off their armor (Corax), to being threatened death by a couple of Space Wolf tactical squads (Angron).

Then there is the varied results of their multiple clashes. In their first fight, the Lion started off with a sucker gut-stab, yet the fight ended with Kurze bashing the Lion's head against a rock until both sides interfered and dragged them apart. So you could call that fight a draw, or a minor victory for Kurze. In their second match-up, there were no sucker punches, but the Lion whooped Kurze's ass so bad, the latter ended up in a coma and was assumed dead by his Legion.

Anyway, if we're talking pure combat power (rather than raw power, which is a contest auto-won by Magnus), the top dog is probably Angron, going by comments from other Primarchs and his performance against Russ.

Like Corax said in one of his soliliques, Angron's only competition would be Sanguinius (we see him fight one of Khorne's greatest Bloodthirsters twice, soundly defeating it in the second clash) and Horus (he's supposed to be the bestest at everything).

Fulgrim was also said to be an amazing combatant, and we see him dispatch Ferrus, who was the strongest physically, and Guilliman, who was no slouch somewhat holding his ground against a transforming/ascending, berserk Angron.

So here would be my rankings:

Top Tier, unstoppable death machines - Angron, Sanguinius, Horus

Second Tier, master swordsmen/duelists - the Lion, Fulgrim

Third Tier, wild and unconventional fighters - Kurze, Corax, Russ, Khan (don't really know this guy's real capability, equating him to Russ for simplicity's sake), Ferrus Manus (probably belongs one tier down, but gave Fulgrim a very solid fight, so he jumps up a tier).

Fourth Tier, capable warriors and Primarchs to boot! - Lorgar after his pilgrimage, Guilliman, Vulkan (this guy is only seen briefly before getting blown up by siege engines), Perturabo, Magnus (psychic powers could probably bring his overall combat prowess up to third or even second tier if you consider Russ as having additional resistance/protection against psychic powers which made their fight more even, and really, if you just want to cause the most amount of destruction, deserves a tier all of his own)

Fifth Tier, total pussies if not for the fact that they are a Primarch - Lorgar before his pilgrimage, Dorn (maybe deserves to be one tier up, but all he does is mope about the pretty buildings, gets his gak packed in by Kurze, executes a dying old man, and then gets himself killed by Chaos scrubs on a Space Hulk)

Why so harsh on Royal Dorn? Him being the primarch best at defence and stuff is pretty useful, he could probably withstand Angron's fury for long enough to tire him out, at least that would give the other primarchs a chance.

We don't actually know how Dorn dies. Yeah, it was during a black crusade, but for all we know, Perturabo teleported on board with his a few of his other Primarch buddies, hacked Dorn to pieces, then teleported out. Just for lulz.

TheSGC wrote:Phoenix Lords and Primarchs be equals? Come on. The Primarchs are the greatest generals Mankind has ever known. That'd be like asking SHIELD to be the equal of the Avengers. Not going to happen.

Greatness lies in the eye of the beholder - especially when the victor writes the history, feats are twisted by legend, and people become myth. Interestingly, GW's Index Astartes articles paint a notably less glorified picture. Alpharius was almost shot to death by Horus' bridge crew - possibly explaining Dorn's death during a very similar boarding action. Supposedly, at least in the Index Astartes version, Alpharius later died from a single blow of a power sword. This is how the mighty can fall. I'm sure the Black Library novels paint a much more epic and glorious picture akin to the movie "300".

The comparison to comic book superheroes is a good explanation for why opinions amongst the fanbase are so varied, however. We all like to see different things in the setting - this includes the scale of realism/grit vs epicness and exaggeration.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Doomsdave wrote:
The Primarch of the XI legion was the biggest badass of all. He was erased form the histories because he totally pwned his bros.

Apparently she was awesome

Yes. And PMS heightened her combat rage.
Seriously, a female primarch would make for an awesome HH novel.

It's funny because Index Astartes apparently portrays the Primarchs as being almost as ridiculous as their Horus Heresy novel versions.

 Orblivion wrote:

@VensersRevenge: Khan is a sword wielder, as is Sanguinius who I would definitely place above the Lion and pre-possession Fulgrim.

.

OK, Thanks. But didn't he fight from his bike. And in just fighting ability, doesn't a lot of Sanguinius' advantages come from his wings?

BlaxicanX wrote:It's funny because Index Astartes apparently portrays the Primarchs as being almost as ridiculous as their Horus Heresy novel versions.

Depends on which section you read - I thought it interesting that in this case it's much easier to discern legend and myth from a more grounded description, at times even explaining how one can develop into the other. For example, Fulgrim's world, Callax, was more advanced than most, and so its inhabitants were able to chronicle the means by which the Primarch arrived as a "stasis capsule", whereas records from less developed worlds treat it like a falling star - with all the mysticism attached to someone crawling out of it. Some of those articles even mention obvious and irreconcilable contradictions between the records kept by the various Chapters, as mentioned in the comments regarding the Space Wolves' orally imparted sagas.

Index Astartes is thus insofar refreshing in that it clearly treats the stories about the Primarchs as myth and attempts to analyse their background, rather than attempting to evoke the impression that "this is how it was".
Occasionally you also have a bit of a short story strewn in, but nothing that (imho) comes close to what I heard about the HH novels.

Obviously, with 40k's "there is no canon" clause, all of this is pretty meaningless, as everything remains a matter of personal interpretation and preferences - but in my case, I clearly prefer the Index Astartes. Not in the least because it continues to treat the age of the Great Crusade as something twisted by legend, but also because its records are much easier to "digest" for someone like me who just cannot cope with comicbook-like feats of superheroism. At least not in this setting. I did actually enjoy the Avengers movie.

 Lynata wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:It's funny because Index Astartes apparently portrays the Primarchs as being almost as ridiculous as their Horus Heresy novel versions.

Depends on which section you read - I thought it interesting that in this case it's much easier to discern legend and myth from a more grounded description, at times even explaining how one can develop into the other. For example, Fulgrim's world, Callax, was more advanced than most, and so its inhabitants were able to chronicle the means by which the Primarch arrived as a "stasis capsule", whereas records from less developed worlds treat it like a falling star - with all the mysticism attached to someone crawling out of it. Some of those articles even mention obvious and irreconcilable contradictions between the records kept by the various Chapters, as mentioned in the comments regarding the Space Wolves' orally imparted sagas.

Index Astartes is thus insofar refreshing in that it clearly treats the stories about the Primarchs as myth and attempts to analyse their background, rather than attempting to evoke the impression that "this is how it was".
Occasionally you also have a bit of a short story strewn in, but nothing that (imho) comes close to what I heard about the HH novels.

Obviously, with 40k's "there is no canon" clause, all of this is pretty meaningless, as everything remains a matter of personal interpretation and preferences - but in my case, I clearly prefer the Index Astartes. Not in the least because it continues to treat the age of the Great Crusade as something twisted by legend, but also because its records are much easier to "digest" for someone like me who just cannot cope with comicbook-like feats of superheroism. At least not in this setting. I did actually enjoy the Avengers movie.

Oh yes, I'm aware of the Lynata selective hearing clause.

Just pointing out that studio fluff is objectively not any better than BL fluff in this regard.

 Exergy wrote:

I'm not really sure about a number of them but I would start off a ranking something like this. Almost all of them are pretty badass, so average in this case is kind of dubious.

Horus at or near the top
Angron at or near the top

Sanguinius top tier
Fulgim possessed top tier
Russ top tier

Kruze slightly above average(dude fights dirty)
Khan slightly above average
Lion slightly above average

Corax, Guiliam, Perterbo, Dorn, Ferrus mid level

Fulgrim unpossessed slightly below average

Mortorn lower tier
Alparius-Omegan lower tier when alone (but there are two of them)
Vulkan lower tier

Magnus near the bottom

Lorgar at or near the bottom

Lorgar being at or near the bottom stopped being a thing as of Aurelian. He even one-ups Sanguinius' battle with Ka'Bhanda. Lorgar when driven by a purpose is formidable indeed.

Magnus? Magnus is physically one of the most formidable Primarchs, because apparently 40k gives no feths about narrative balance.

A lot of people like to assume that because he is the most psychically powerful Primarch, and because he is a scholar, that he must obviously be one of the least formidable in h2h, but the fluff simply does not support this analysis.

Magnus' might in combat is explicitly lauded as rivaling Leman Russ' own in Index Astartes (And the context made it clear that it was not factoring in his sorcery, because the quote is something along the lines of "Magnus had strength lauded as rivaling the Space Wolf Primarch's, but he chose to devote his time to sorcery" or some gak. Battle of the Fang also references that Magnus was as mighty as Russ), and in A Thousand Sons he matches his brother blow for blow. Magnus is the largest of the Primarchs, and one of the physically strongest, and did not find himself outmatched by Leman Russ' prodigious skill.

"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"

...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".

I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.

yeah, Angron was a gladiator the match or more for any of the primarchs if you take away psykic powers and other skills. The embodied close combat of all types.

Well from reading The HH Novels, Lorgar seems to be weakest fighters followed by the alpharius brothers as they seem to be sceemers first and they seem to be the same size as a normal marine.

The Phoenecian is better than the Gorgon, you know why.

Leman Russ and Lion 'l Johnson seem to be evenly matched.

Angron is a Berserker, so most skilled primachs could easily defeat him IMHO.

BlaxicanX wrote:Oh yes, I'm aware of the Lynata selective hearing clause.
Just pointing out that studio fluff is objectively not any better than BL fluff in this regard.

And I'm pointing out it is, and may well accuse you of "selective hearing" for failing to notice the things I mentioned.

Opinions, eh?

I think they're all equal - Any of them could beat any other on any day of the week.
Besides, as soon as we work out an official 'order' of the primarchs one of the heresy authors will write something new just to ruin it.

Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman
Guilliman fought Lorgar and Angron (and didn't die)

Does that mean Kor Phaeron could fight Lorgar and Angron at the same time?

it depends entirely on whose plot armour is thickest on which day.

Corax beat Lorgar.
Night Haunter beat Corax.
Vulkan beat Night Haunter.
Angron beat Russ
Russ beat Magnus
Night Haunter beat Dorn
Fulgim beat Ferrus Manus
The Lion beat Night Haunter.
Horus beat Sanguinius
Perturabo beat Fulgrim
And just when we'd decided that Lorgar was the weakest primarch, Aurelian came along and and changed it up again.

^ Yeah, and don't forget Curze death choking Lion until Corswain backstabed him thus saving him from wearing a turtle neck shirts...

Also when you put stories into mix you don't have clear winner in any category.....

Except maybe Corax slapping Lorgar around...

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ Yeah, and don't forget Curze death choking Lion until Corswain backstabed him thus saving him from wearing a turtle neck shirts...

Also when you put stories into mix you don't have clear winner in any category.....

Except maybe Corax slapping Lorgar around...

Cheers - I knew I hadn't got them all in there...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would it be possible to rank them in order of victories over each other?

Win/loss ratio vs other primarchs - thats something I've not seen before. Are there any other fights thats I didn't list?

PredaKhaine wrote:
I think they're all equal - Any of them could beat any other on any day of the week.

"Any Given Sunday"

 Lynata wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Oh yes, I'm aware of the Lynata selective hearing clause.
Just pointing out that studio fluff is objectively not any better than BL fluff in this regard.

And I'm pointing out it isn't, and may well accuse you of "selective hearing" for failing to notice the things I mentioned.

Opinions, eh?

So you agree with me.

That's a first, but it's just one of many to come.

PredaKhaine wrote:

Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman
Guilliman fought Lorgar and Angron (and didn't die)

To be fair, Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman through psychic powers, which Lorgar couldn't use against Roboute.

If he could, is there really any question who would have won?

Nope, Guilliman would be paste.

Plot armour is great isn't it

BlaxicanX wrote:So you agree with me.

No, just a miscommunication on my part. But the context should have made that clear.

Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.

At the start of the Heresy:

Tier 1
Horus
Lion El'Jonson
Angron
Jaghatai Khan
Sanguinius


Tier 2
Fulgrim
Guilliman
Rogal Dorn
Leman Russ
Corax
Konrad Cruze

Tier 3
Ferrus Manus
Magnus
Vulkan
Perturabo
Mortarion

Tier 4
Lorgar

Unknown: Alpharius/Omegon

 Harriticus wrote:


Tier 2
Fulgrim
Calgar
Rogal Dorn
Leman Russ
Corax
Konrad Cruze

I assuming you meant Gulliman?

Well, Vulkan is apparently a true immortal, so that shakes up his ranking.

VensersRevenge wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:


Tier 2
Fulgrim
Calgar
Rogal Dorn
Leman Russ
Corax
Konrad Cruze

I assuming you meant Gulliman?

Correcto.

Horus is obviously the most powerful and I think second place is a tie between Magnus, Sanguinius and Angron.

 Omegus wrote:
Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.

What makes you think he wasn't a psyker though?

Also, Lorgar is explicitly more powerful than him in that regard, in that very book.


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BaconUprising wrote:
Horus is obviously the most powerful

Based on?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.

What makes you think he wasn't a psyker though?

Also, Lorgar is explicitly more powerful than him in that regard, in that very book.


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BaconUprising wrote:
Horus is obviously the most powerful

Based on?

Based on the fact that other primaries claim he is the most powerful, Fulgrim, Corax, Sanguinius. If I was a better man I would actually find the sources for this statement but I'm far too tired. Maybe later.

When do they claim he was the most powerful though?

Corax says he thinks that he would beat Angron, but IIRC also says that Corax himself has bested Horus while sparring.

Horus can't be the most powerful, no matter how skilled he is, because he has absolutely no psychic prowess. We see how well physical strength and skill availed Guilliman when up against a psyker not near Lorgar or Magnus' caliber, and Lorgar himself could telepathically command Horus.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
When do they claim he was the most powerful though?

Corax says he thinks that he would beat Angron, but IIRC also says that Corax himself has bested Horus while sparring.

Horus can't be the most powerful, no matter how skilled he is, because he has absolutely no psychic prowess. We see how well physical strength and skill availed Guilliman when up against a psyker not near Lorgar or Magnus' caliber, and Lorgar himself could telepathically command Horus.

When did Corax come out with that?

I thought in Ravens Flight he said he'd be going to his death if he fought Angron. But its early and my memory is fuzzy...
I remember having that impression anyway - but that could've been because Angron was backed up by his pile of frothing madmen legion

Did Lorgar manage to command Horus before or after his fight with guilliman?

PredaKhaine wrote:

When did Corax come out with that?

I thought in Ravens Flight he said he'd be going to his death if he fought Angron. But its early and my memory is fuzzy...
I remember having that impression anyway - but that could've been because Angron was backed up by his pile of frothing madmen legion

Did Lorgar manage to command Horus before or after his fight with guilliman?

Uh... The Corax book by Gav Thorpe, that's name I can't be bothered to look up.

He did, he believed Angron would murder him in a duel.

Before the fight with Guilliman, but after his fight with Corax.

Is that Corax book Deliverence Lost?

Corax - a man divided. 'I'll beat Angron if I fight him....but if I fight him, I'll die.'

He said he has beaten Horus. Not that he could beat Angron, lol.

I doubt he could in an actual fight, plus what stage of the 30k background are we talking about?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Corax says he thinks that he would beat Angron, but IIRC also says that Corax himself has bested Horus while sparring.

Now I'm really confused

Holy feth, you're two different people.

And sorry I wasn't clear, he thinks Horus would beat Angron, but says that he, Corax himself, has beaten Horus.

And I'm up to speed now

If Corax thought Horus would beat Angron, but that Angron would kill him - It adds more weight to 'they could all beat each other'.

sparring is not an actual fight. For example Aquillion beat argel tal in every sparring fight but was killed by him in combat. If the two fought Horus would kill Corax, as Corax himself states that Horus is the most powerful.

BaconUprising wrote:
sparring is not an actual fight. For example Aquillion beat argel tal in every sparring fight but was killed by him in combat. If the two fought Horus would kill Corax, as Corax himself states that Horus is the most powerful.

Indeed, I think Lucius and Loken demonstrated that sparring is not anywhere near trying to kill each other.

BaconUprising wrote:
sparring is not an actual fight. For example Aquillion beat argel tal in every sparring fight but was killed by him in combat. If the two fought Horus would kill Corax, as Corax himself states that Horus is the most powerful.

Argel Tal killed him in combat because he transformed into a daemon.

Corax never, not even once, stated that Horus is the most powerful.

But you know what Primarch does have quite a few characters refer to him as the most powerful of their number? Magnus the Red.

That's why I think he is one of if not the most powerful. He has by far the most potential...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.

What makes you think he wasn't a psyker though?

Also, Lorgar is explicitly more powerful than him in that regard, in that very book.

He did not display any psychic potential as a human or as a pseudo-Space Marine (and being that he wasn't a real Space Marine, there was no trigger that sometimes makes people manifest the gift after becoming Astartes. Then, all of a sudden, he has a magic knife and is throwing warpflame.

Just like the flasks that allowed the traitors to communicate across vast distances, or the shards that allowed them to make rifts in space/time and travel through the void, this is all daemon magic taught to Lorgar by the Gods, and by Lorgar to his Legion. This remains Lorgar's task to this day, with him writing down the instructions on manipulating daemons and the warp and passing it to his Legion (the "Book" of Lorgar at this point fills several libraries).

The Word Bearers novels also feature a number of non-psychic characters who use the various rituals from the Book of Lorgar to achieve similar effects. My personal pet theory is that a lot of these rituals are based on Glossia, the raw language of Chaos introduced in the Eisenhorn/Ravenor novels. So basically, both Chaos Sorcerers and Dark Apostles manipulate daemons and the warp, but whereas the former do it as wizards using raw force of will and various pacts and contracts, the latter do it as clerics using their Lorgar-derived knowledge of the deeper mysteries of the warp as well as their status in the eyes of their patron deities.

To Recap:

Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

 Omegus wrote:
Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

In prospero burns, he mentions that the Thousand Sons aren't the first legion to fall from the Emperor's graces... he hints at the Space Wolves wiping them out.

It is also hinted at in many other places considering they are known as the executioners. It also says that they fell I'm a is liar way to Magnus which suggest sorcery and therefore the wolves involvement.

Horus kills Sanguinus and plans the destruction of 3 Loyalist Legions at Istvaan V. He also mortally wounds the Emperor.

Killing Sanguinius and mortally wounding the Emperor were not done under his own power. He had the massed might of Chaos flowing through him.


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 Omegus wrote:

He did not display any psychic potential as a human or as a pseudo-Space Marine (and being that he wasn't a real Space Marine, there was no trigger that sometimes makes people manifest the gift after becoming Astartes. Then, all of a sudden, he has a magic knife and is throwing warpflame.

We never see him take an active role in a battle before Know No Fear. He didn't really do anything of substance in The First Heretic fight-wise.

Kor Phaeron and Erebus are said by some douche whose name I don't remember in Know No Fear to have once been the most powerful adepts within the Word Bearers Legion, with Lorgar only surpassing them after his manfight with Corax. Which IIRC is before Lorgar started penning the book of Lorgar.

Not that this really makes my point less valid though, since Lorgar and Magnus are still explicitly more powerful than Kor Phaeron, and if Kor Phaeron achieved that with just sorcery, then very talented psykers backed up by sorcery is even more potent.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

In prospero burns, he mentions that the Thousand Sons aren't the first legion to fall from the Emperor's graces... he hints at the Space Wolves wiping them out.

The rumor was that wolves had fought their brothers before, but we now know it was the World Eaters.

The executioner bit is a self-appointed title with no authority.

 Omegus wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs. He also started the fight with a cheap shot, which only made the Lion angry, and when the Lion returned the favor, Russ was passed out for like a week.

In prospero burns, he mentions that the Thousand Sons aren't the first legion to fall from the Emperor's graces... he hints at the Space Wolves wiping them out.

The rumor was that wolves had fought their brothers before, but we now know it was the World Eaters.

The executioner bit is a self-appointed title with no authority.

Who utterly curbstomped them.

You can't actually state that Russ had nothing to do with the missing Primarchs in all certainty, because we have no real solid clue of what happened to the missing Primarchs.

Saying he definitely had nothing to do with them is just as bad as saying he absolutely had something to do with them.

Also, I am pretty sure that ADB specifically wrote the World Eaters thing into Betrayer because he doesn't like the "official executioners" thing Dan Abnett was spewing (And let's be honest, Dan Abnett was not being subtle about his pro-Space Wolf feth everyone else motive with Prospero Burns), because ADB doesn't give a feth about the canon other writers established.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

We never see him take an active role in a battle before Know No Fear. He didn't really do anything of substance in The First Heretic fight-wise.

Kor Phaeron and Erebus are said by some douche whose name I don't remember in Know No Fear to have once been the most powerful adepts within the Word Bearers Legion, with Lorgar only surpassing them after his manfight with Corax. Which IIRC is before Lorgar started penning the book of Lorgar.

Not that this really makes my point less valid though, since Lorgar and Magnus are still explicitly more powerful than Kor Phaeron, and if Kor Phaeron achieved that with just sorcery, then very talented psykers backed up by sorcery is even more potent.

The last bit should be no surprise, as evidenced by the epic amounts of whoopass the Thousand Sons were able to unleash once they cut loose.

Kor Phaeron was a cultist even before the Imperium discovered Lorgar, and Erebus was his foremost apprentice. I also doubt they were psykers because they weren't members of the Librarium. While some Primarchs who weren't fond of Magnus and/or psychic powers excluded their Legion from participating in the Librarium project, Lorgar was Magnus' biggest fanboy.


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BaconUprising wrote:

Who utterly curbstomped them.

I wouldn't go so far considering they "won" the overall battle, but yes, 1v1 the berserkers outdo the Vikings.

That's what makes him such a great writer! I hate the HH space wolves and how they are portrayed. They are so arrogant and self assured and every writer who writes about them portrays them as a super force who are far stronger than any other space marines.

The reality that in an outright fight they would be utterly broken by most other legions (especially the thousand sons) find hilarious.

I really liked in Betrayal how Russ was so self assured and ye was crushed by his demented brother.

BaconUprising wrote:
That's what makes him such a great writer! I hate the HH space wolves and how they are portrayed. They are so arrogant and self assured and every writer who writes about them portrays them as a super force who are far stronger than any other space marines.

The reality that in an outright fight they would be utterly broken by most other legions (especially the thousand sons) find hilarious.

I really liked in Betrayal how Russ was so self assured and ye was crushed by his demented brother.

ADB is one of the most pro-wolf biased writers out there actually.

Betrayer was not an anti-wolf showing. It was a "Oh, you knocked my teeth out and I have piss dribbling down my leg, but we won the moral victory! Even if the moral victory required our writer pretending that Space Marines with bolters could put down a raging Primarch" showing. ADB himself said, out of universe, that the wolves were correct. Because despite apparently being such a great writer, he always feels the need to clarify out of universe to get across his intentions, and half the time what he says is not nearly the same as what he wrote.

Then there is the piece of gak that is The Emperor's Gift, where Logan Grimnar manages to outperform Angron, the Daemon Primarch, against Hyperion.

Yes on reflection he is very pro wolf. I did though enjoy the account of Russ being beaten senseless for once.

Here's rules for Magnus, Dorn, Perturabo, Russ, Lion, Ferrus, and Luther from a 3rd (or 4th?) Edition special scenario GW was running in stores.

I would look at these and the FW books, and then come up with something close.

Last I recall that was fan-made, and not even kind of canon.

They also happen to be terrible and VERY weak

BaconUprising wrote:
That's what makes him such a great writer! I hate the HH space wolves and how they are portrayed. They are so arrogant and self assured and every writer who writes about them portrays them as a super force who are far stronger than any other space marines.

The reality that in an outright fight they would be utterly broken by most other legions (especially the thousand sons) find hilarious.

I really liked in Betrayal how Russ was so self assured and ye was crushed by his demented brother.

Wow, this is brilliant, academy award for your anti bias...

First, learn to write (your mother language), I mean, my english is bad, but yours is.....criminal... Second, what Betrayal ? You mean Betrayer ? Third, don't degrade this thread into your petty hate, and please get back on topic ....



@Red Viper what is that ?

Oh good thing you showed up, Darth Marko has the quote I spoke of in his sig.

Why the anger? I typed it quickly I don't see why that offends you so much... It's not petty hate. I said I enjoyed reading Russ being humbled. I really dislike space wolves as you have probably ascertained, I fail to see why this offends you so?

VD you have your perspective I have mine...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:
Why the anger? I typed it quickly I don't see why that offends you so much... It's not petty hate. I said I enjoyed reading Russ being humbled. I really dislike space wolves as you have probably ascertained, I fail to see why this offends you so?

Because the thread is not about SW ....It is about fightning skills of primarchs...Stick to that...

O yeah, I like wolves and I'm biased, yadayadyada....I dislike one chapter ( nope, they are not the TS) and I never comment them...

Then why are you attempting to enforce your opinion on ,me with your previous statement? What are you contributing to the thread?

BaconUprising wrote:
Then why are you attempting to enforce your opinion on ,me with your previous statement? What are you contributing to the thread?

What opinion ??? Stick to the thread...damn, dude

Too many threads have gone "south" when we start to comment what we like and what we dislike....

I was responding to a comment within the thread. I'll do that if I want to, I don't require your permission.

Yeah, you don't...But when threads are degraded into petty posts it pisses me off....

Petty. It wasn't petty at all the fact that your commenting on it is petty now drop it.

To get some semblance of the original topic back, The Lion couldn't even beat Luther (well, not as soundly as you'd expect a Primarch to walk though a Marine), which says something...

On the rules front OP, have you considered asking the other guys bringing primarchs what kind of stat lines they're using? The FW rules seem like the best place to start IMO.

Luther was explicitly amplified by the Chaos Gods to be of a level with the Lion.

In the primarch deathmatch tha was done Horus won Angron came second, Fulgrim third and Mortarion fourth.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
To get some semblance of the original topic back, The Lion couldn't even beat Luther (well, not as soundly as you'd expect a Primarch to walk though a Marine), which says something..

Technically, he wasn't a Marine. Neither was Kor Phaeron, the only other non-Primarch to humble a Primarch. Maybe being an enhanced human > genetically altered Astartes?

 Omegus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.

What makes you think he wasn't a psyker though?

Also, Lorgar is explicitly more powerful than him in that regard, in that very book.

He did not display any psychic potential as a human or as a pseudo-Space Marine (and being that he wasn't a real Space Marine, there was no trigger that sometimes makes people manifest the gift after becoming Astartes. Then, all of a sudden, he has a magic knife and is throwing warpflame.

Just like the flasks that allowed the traitors to communicate across vast distances, or the shards that allowed them to make rifts in space/time and travel through the void, this is all daemon magic taught to Lorgar by the Gods, and by Lorgar to his Legion. This remains Lorgar's task to this day, with him writing down the instructions on manipulating daemons and the warp and passing it to his Legion (the "Book" of Lorgar at this point fills several libraries).

The Word Bearers novels also feature a number of non-psychic characters who use the various rituals from the Book of Lorgar to achieve similar effects. My personal pet theory is that a lot of these rituals are based on Glossia, the raw language of Chaos introduced in the Eisenhorn/Ravenor novels. So basically, both Chaos Sorcerers and Dark Apostles manipulate daemons and the warp, but whereas the former do it as wizards using raw force of will and various pacts and contracts, the latter do it as clerics using their Lorgar-derived knowledge of the deeper mysteries of the warp as well as their status in the eyes of their patron deities.

DERP! What you mean is Enuncia (Glossia is a code language developed my Eisenhorn and used by him and Ravenor and their respective teams). BUT
Also, Lorgar hasn't shown any knowledge about Enuncia and it's use has not been shown at any point in the heresy. Luckily (for the well-being of creation),iIt might exist solely in the Abnettverse.

Ah, my mistake. I drew a blank on the word and just grabbed the first word I saw from the lexicanum entry. Considering how Enuncia was deciphered in the Inquisitor novels, it's pretty clear it is Chaos-related. The race we see that had mastered the language were "incomprehensible" beings very similar to daemons that lived in their own pocket dimension they could mould to their whims.

The Lexicanum also mentions a use of Enuncia In Fear to Tread, but I don't remember the particulars. I have the book at home, I'll double check.

 Omegus wrote:
Ah, my mistake. I drew a blank on the word and just grabbed the first word I saw from the lexicanum entry. Considering how Enuncia was deciphered in the Inquisitor novels, it's pretty clear it is Chaos-related. The race we see that had mastered the language were "incomprehensible" beings very similar to daemons that lived in their own pocket dimension they could mould to their whims.

The Lexicanum also mentions a use of Enuncia In Fear to Tread, but I don't remember the particulars. I have the book at home, I'll double check.

Hm, didn't know that last bit ofc, maybe that will shed some more light on it. I always thought Abnett made some cool gak up for his Inquisition-related novels knowing it wouldn't affect the main fluff. Also, "pocket dimension" still sounds like Materium-tech/science to me, think of the necron FTL tech. Or maybe there plain old demons, yeah .