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2013/08/20 23:51:37
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Regular Dakkanaut
Washington State, US
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Phoenix Lords and Primarchs be equals? Come on. The Primarchs are the greatest generals Mankind has ever known. That'd be like asking SHIELD to be the equal of the Avengers. Not going to happen.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/20 23:52:59
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2013/08/21 00:05:47
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch
England, UK
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 Omegus wrote:Their depictions in the fluff vary wildly. You can have them surviving titan-level plasma weapons to the face (Lorgar), and bouncing several devastators' squads worth of firepower off their armor (Corax), to being threatened death by a couple of Space Wolf tactical squads (Angron).
Then there is the varied results of their multiple clashes. In their first fight, the Lion started off with a sucker gut-stab, yet the fight ended with Kurze bashing the Lion's head against a rock until both sides interfered and dragged them apart. So you could call that fight a draw, or a minor victory for Kurze. In their second match-up, there were no sucker punches, but the Lion whooped Kurze's ass so bad, the latter ended up in a coma and was assumed dead by his Legion.
Anyway, if we're talking pure combat power (rather than raw power, which is a contest auto-won by Magnus), the top dog is probably Angron, going by comments from other Primarchs and his performance against Russ.
Like Corax said in one of his soliliques, Angron's only competition would be Sanguinius (we see him fight one of Khorne's greatest Bloodthirsters twice, soundly defeating it in the second clash) and Horus (he's supposed to be the bestest at everything).
Fulgrim was also said to be an amazing combatant, and we see him dispatch Ferrus, who was the strongest physically, and Guilliman, who was no slouch somewhat holding his ground against a transforming/ascending, berserk Angron.
So here would be my rankings:
Top Tier, unstoppable death machines - Angron, Sanguinius, Horus
Second Tier, master swordsmen/duelists - the Lion, Fulgrim
Third Tier, wild and unconventional fighters - Kurze, Corax, Russ, Khan (don't really know this guy's real capability, equating him to Russ for simplicity's sake), Ferrus Manus (probably belongs one tier down, but gave Fulgrim a very solid fight, so he jumps up a tier).
Fourth Tier, capable warriors and Primarchs to boot! - Lorgar after his pilgrimage, Guilliman, Vulkan (this guy is only seen briefly before getting blown up by siege engines), Perturabo, Magnus (psychic powers could probably bring his overall combat prowess up to third or even second tier if you consider Russ as having additional resistance/protection against psychic powers which made their fight more even, and really, if you just want to cause the most amount of destruction, deserves a tier all of his own)
Fifth Tier, total pussies if not for the fact that they are a Primarch - Lorgar before his pilgrimage, Dorn (maybe deserves to be one tier up, but all he does is mope about the pretty buildings, gets his gak packed in by Kurze, executes a dying old man, and then gets himself killed by Chaos scrubs on a Space Hulk)
Why so harsh on Royal Dorn? Him being the primarch best at defence and stuff is pretty useful, he could probably withstand Angron's fury for long enough to tire him out, at least that would give the other primarchs a chance.
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2013/08/21 00:08:53
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Regular Dakkanaut
Washington State, US
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We don't actually know how Dorn dies. Yeah, it was during a black crusade, but for all we know, Perturabo teleported on board with his a few of his other Primarch buddies, hacked Dorn to pieces, then teleported out. Just for lulz.
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2013/08/21 00:29:54
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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TheSGC wrote:Phoenix Lords and Primarchs be equals? Come on. The Primarchs are the greatest generals Mankind has ever known. That'd be like asking SHIELD to be the equal of the Avengers. Not going to happen.
Greatness lies in the eye of the beholder - especially when the victor writes the history, feats are twisted by legend, and people become myth. Interestingly, GW's Index Astartes articles paint a notably less glorified picture. Alpharius was almost shot to death by Horus' bridge crew - possibly explaining Dorn's death during a very similar boarding action. Supposedly, at least in the Index Astartes version, Alpharius later died from a single blow of a power sword. This is how the mighty can fall. I'm sure the Black Library novels paint a much more epic and glorious picture akin to the movie "300".
The comparison to comic book superheroes is a good explanation for why opinions amongst the fanbase are so varied, however. We all like to see different things in the setting - this includes the scale of realism/grit vs epicness and exaggeration.
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2013/08/21 00:35:57
Subject: Re:Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Lustful Cultist of Slaanesh
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Yes. And PMS heightened her combat rage.
Seriously, a female primarch would make for an awesome HH novel.
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2013/08/21 00:36:31
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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It's funny because Index Astartes apparently portrays the Primarchs as being almost as ridiculous as their Horus Heresy novel versions.
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2013/08/21 01:48:25
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Wondering Why the Emperor Left
Canada
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 Orblivion wrote:
@VensersRevenge: Khan is a sword wielder, as is Sanguinius who I would definitely place above the Lion and pre-possession Fulgrim.
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OK, Thanks. But didn't he fight from his bike. And in just fighting ability, doesn't a lot of Sanguinius' advantages come from his wings?
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2013/08/21 02:13:33
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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BlaxicanX wrote:It's funny because Index Astartes apparently portrays the Primarchs as being almost as ridiculous as their Horus Heresy novel versions.
Depends on which section you read - I thought it interesting that in this case it's much easier to discern legend and myth from a more grounded description, at times even explaining how one can develop into the other. For example, Fulgrim's world, Callax, was more advanced than most, and so its inhabitants were able to chronicle the means by which the Primarch arrived as a "stasis capsule", whereas records from less developed worlds treat it like a falling star - with all the mysticism attached to someone crawling out of it. Some of those articles even mention obvious and irreconcilable contradictions between the records kept by the various Chapters, as mentioned in the comments regarding the Space Wolves' orally imparted sagas.
Index Astartes is thus insofar refreshing in that it clearly treats the stories about the Primarchs as myth and attempts to analyse their background, rather than attempting to evoke the impression that "this is how it was".
Occasionally you also have a bit of a short story strewn in, but nothing that ( imho) comes close to what I heard about the HH novels. 
Obviously, with 40k's "there is no canon" clause, all of this is pretty meaningless, as everything remains a matter of personal interpretation and preferences - but in my case, I clearly prefer the Index Astartes. Not in the least because it continues to treat the age of the Great Crusade as something twisted by legend, but also because its records are much easier to "digest" for someone like me who just cannot cope with comicbook-like feats of superheroism. At least not in this setting. I did actually enjoy the Avengers movie. 
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2013/08/21 04:54:37
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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 Lynata wrote:BlaxicanX wrote:It's funny because Index Astartes apparently portrays the Primarchs as being almost as ridiculous as their Horus Heresy novel versions.
Depends on which section you read - I thought it interesting that in this case it's much easier to discern legend and myth from a more grounded description, at times even explaining how one can develop into the other. For example, Fulgrim's world, Callax, was more advanced than most, and so its inhabitants were able to chronicle the means by which the Primarch arrived as a "stasis capsule", whereas records from less developed worlds treat it like a falling star - with all the mysticism attached to someone crawling out of it. Some of those articles even mention obvious and irreconcilable contradictions between the records kept by the various Chapters, as mentioned in the comments regarding the Space Wolves' orally imparted sagas.
Index Astartes is thus insofar refreshing in that it clearly treats the stories about the Primarchs as myth and attempts to analyse their background, rather than attempting to evoke the impression that "this is how it was".
Occasionally you also have a bit of a short story strewn in, but nothing that ( imho) comes close to what I heard about the HH novels.
Obviously, with 40k's "there is no canon" clause, all of this is pretty meaningless, as everything remains a matter of personal interpretation and preferences - but in my case, I clearly prefer the Index Astartes. Not in the least because it continues to treat the age of the Great Crusade as something twisted by legend, but also because its records are much easier to "digest" for someone like me who just cannot cope with comicbook-like feats of superheroism. At least not in this setting. I did actually enjoy the Avengers movie.
Oh yes, I'm aware of the Lynata selective hearing clause.
Just pointing out that studio fluff is objectively not any better than BL fluff in this regard.
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2013/08/21 05:56:22
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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 Exergy wrote:
I'm not really sure about a number of them but I would start off a ranking something like this. Almost all of them are pretty badass, so average in this case is kind of dubious.
Horus at or near the top
Angron at or near the top
Sanguinius top tier
Fulgim possessed top tier
Russ top tier
Kruze slightly above average(dude fights dirty)
Khan slightly above average
Lion slightly above average
Corax, Guiliam, Perterbo, Dorn, Ferrus mid level
Fulgrim unpossessed slightly below average
Mortorn lower tier
Alparius-Omegan lower tier when alone (but there are two of them)
Vulkan lower tier
Magnus near the bottom
Lorgar at or near the bottom
Lorgar being at or near the bottom stopped being a thing as of Aurelian. He even one-ups Sanguinius' battle with Ka'Bhanda. Lorgar when driven by a purpose is formidable indeed.
Magnus? Magnus is physically one of the most formidable Primarchs, because apparently 40k gives no feths about narrative balance.
A lot of people like to assume that because he is the most psychically powerful Primarch, and because he is a scholar, that he must obviously be one of the least formidable in h2h, but the fluff simply does not support this analysis.
Magnus' might in combat is explicitly lauded as rivaling Leman Russ' own in Index Astartes (And the context made it clear that it was not factoring in his sorcery, because the quote is something along the lines of "Magnus had strength lauded as rivaling the Space Wolf Primarch's, but he chose to devote his time to sorcery" or some gak. Battle of the Fang also references that Magnus was as mighty as Russ), and in A Thousand Sons he matches his brother blow for blow. Magnus is the largest of the Primarchs, and one of the physically strongest, and did not find himself outmatched by Leman Russ' prodigious skill.
"The Lion and Fulgrim were the two swordmaster primarchs"
...too which Angron would reply "so now you'vo got your pantsy swords lodged in my stomach and i don't care. Mind if rip you ti pieces now, brother?"
or, more likely "aaaaaaaaaaaaargrgrhh".
I'm pretty sure, every single one of them is VERY proficient at combat, so it might come down to the finest parts of swordplay..or just one being tougher and wearing an opponent out.
yeah, Angron was a gladiator the match or more for any of the primarchs if you take away psykic powers and other skills. The embodied close combat of all types.
If you believe Perturabo, Fulgrim is actually more skilled as a combatant than Angron. He explicitly compares the two.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exergy wrote:
Prepossessed Fulgrim wasn't anything special. He might have been a perfectionist, and he might be an trained swordsmad, he might be fast but he is weak. Ferrus beats him twice until you take the possession into account and Ferrus was tough but not that tough.
Ferrus was one of the physically strongest Primarchs. While not as skilled as some of his brothers, he was very large for a Primarch (From what I can recall only Magnus was bigger), very strong, and very endurant.
Sanguinius is up there. I would still put Angron above him. Sanguinius can fly and is psykicly attuned but Angron is just a beast. And once they meet on Terra Angron is being blessed/fueled by Khorne to some degree.
In pure martial might Angron might indeed be superior to Sanguinius, it is hard to say at the moment.
But he loses to Ferrus twice.
Once Ferrus goes in for the final flow and accidently knocks himself out. The other time Ferrus beats Fulgrim to a pulp, and then as Fulgrim realizes he lacks the strength to swing his blade any more he gives in to the blade's daemon, which brings new life to his sword and cuts Ferrus's head off.
He beat Ferrus in their first fight.
Ferrus did something stupid and got himself fethed up, and Fulgrim managed to recover first, and proceeds to knock his brother out. He could have killed him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:Their depictions in the fluff vary wildly. You can have them surviving titan-level plasma weapons to the face (Lorgar), and bouncing several devastators' squads worth of firepower off their armor (Corax), to being threatened death by a couple of Space Wolf tactical squads (Angron).
Then there is the varied results of their multiple clashes. In their first fight, the Lion started off with a sucker gut-stab, yet the fight ended with Kurze bashing the Lion's head against a rock until both sides interfered and dragged them apart. So you could call that fight a draw, or a minor victory for Kurze. In their second match-up, there were no sucker punches, but the Lion whooped Kurze's ass so bad, the latter ended up in a coma and was assumed dead by his Legion.
Anyway, if we're talking pure combat power (rather than raw power, which is a contest auto-won by Magnus), the top dog is probably Angron, going by comments from other Primarchs and his performance against Russ.
Like Corax said in one of his soliliques, Angron's only competition would be Sanguinius (we see him fight one of Khorne's greatest Bloodthirsters twice, soundly defeating it in the second clash) and Horus (he's supposed to be the bestest at everything).
Fulgrim was also said to be an amazing combatant, and we see him dispatch Ferrus, who was the strongest physically, and Guilliman, who was no slouch somewhat holding his ground against a transforming/ascending, berserk Angron.
So here would be my rankings:
Top Tier, unstoppable death machines - Angron, Sanguinius, Horus
Second Tier, master swordsmen/duelists - the Lion, Fulgrim
Third Tier, wild and unconventional fighters - Kurze, Corax, Russ, Khan (don't really know this guy's real capability, equating him to Russ for simplicity's sake), Ferrus Manus (probably belongs one tier down, but gave Fulgrim a very solid fight, so he jumps up a tier).
Fourth Tier, capable warriors and Primarchs to boot! - Lorgar after his pilgrimage, Guilliman, Vulkan (this guy is only seen briefly before getting blown up by siege engines), Perturabo, Magnus (psychic powers could probably bring his overall combat prowess up to third or even second tier if you consider Russ as having additional resistance/protection against psychic powers which made their fight more even, and really, if you just want to cause the most amount of destruction, deserves a tier all of his own)
Fifth Tier, total pussies if not for the fact that they are a Primarch - Lorgar before his pilgrimage, Dorn (maybe deserves to be one tier up, but all he does is mope about the pretty buildings, gets his gak packed in by Kurze, executes a dying old man, and then gets himself killed by Chaos scrubs on a Space Hulk)
What has Horus done though?
Been nearly killed by a fat man coked up on Chaos.
Been laughed off and treated like dirt by virtually everyone under his command (Lorgar mindpunching him, lololol).
His sole saving graces are that he is touted as the "best" of the Primarchs at everything (Objectively false, Roboute shrugged off the very blade which turned Horus traitor, Magnus is a vastly more powerful psyker, Ferrus Manus and Vulkan are stronger, etc.), and Corax thinking he is one of two Primarchs that could fighterize Angron in some Gav Thorpe Audio Drama.
Yet, Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus believes Fulgrim is explicitly a more formidable martial combatant than Angron, Dorn thinks he'd crack Angron's skull in two, Lorgar's belief that Magnus is the most powerful Primarch (Though to be fair this one is true, huehuehue), etc. Opinions, man.
Horus has a lot to prove before he can begin justifying the hype some give him.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/21 06:10:21
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2013/08/21 07:53:59
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Fixture of Dakka
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Well from reading The HH Novels, Lorgar seems to be weakest fighters followed by the alpharius brothers as they seem to be sceemers first and they seem to be the same size as a normal marine.
The Phoenecian is better than the Gorgon, you know why.
Leman Russ and Lion 'l Johnson seem to be evenly matched.
Angron is a Berserker, so most skilled primachs could easily defeat him IMHO.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/21 07:54:58
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2013/08/21 12:32:27
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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BlaxicanX wrote:Oh yes, I'm aware of the Lynata selective hearing clause.
Just pointing out that studio fluff is objectively not any better than BL fluff in this regard.
And I'm pointing out it is, and may well accuse you of "selective hearing" for failing to notice the things I mentioned.
Opinions, eh?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/22 12:27:39
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2013/08/21 13:00:21
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Executing Exarch
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I think they're all equal - Any of them could beat any other on any day of the week.
Besides, as soon as we work out an official 'order' of the primarchs one of the heresy authors will write something new just to ruin it.
Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman
Guilliman fought Lorgar and Angron (and didn't die)
Does that mean Kor Phaeron could fight Lorgar and Angron at the same time?
it depends entirely on whose plot armour is thickest on which day.
Corax beat Lorgar.
Night Haunter beat Corax.
Vulkan beat Night Haunter.
Angron beat Russ
Russ beat Magnus
Night Haunter beat Dorn
Fulgim beat Ferrus Manus
The Lion beat Night Haunter.
Horus beat Sanguinius
Perturabo beat Fulgrim
And just when we'd decided that Lorgar was the weakest primarch, Aurelian came along and and changed it up again.
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 Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
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2013/08/21 14:14:12
Subject: Re:Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
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^ Yeah, and don't forget Curze death choking Lion until Corswain backstabed him thus saving him from wearing a turtle neck shirts...
Also when you put stories into mix you don't have clear winner in any category.....
Except maybe Corax slapping Lorgar around...
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ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
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2013/08/21 14:18:55
Subject: Re:Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Executing Exarch
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 DarthMarko wrote:^ Yeah, and don't forget Curze death choking Lion until Corswain backstabed him thus saving him from wearing a turtle neck shirts...
Also when you put stories into mix you don't have clear winner in any category.....
Except maybe Corax slapping Lorgar around...
Cheers - I knew I hadn't got them all in there...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would it be possible to rank them in order of victories over each other?
Win/loss ratio vs other primarchs - thats something I've not seen before. Are there any other fights thats I didn't list?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/21 14:21:48
Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
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2013/08/21 16:09:39
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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PredaKhaine wrote:I think they're all equal - Any of them could beat any other on any day of the week.
"Any Given Sunday"
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   Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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2013/08/22 01:43:45
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Lynata wrote:BlaxicanX wrote:Oh yes, I'm aware of the Lynata selective hearing clause.
Just pointing out that studio fluff is objectively not any better than BL fluff in this regard.
And I'm pointing out it isn't, and may well accuse you of "selective hearing" for failing to notice the things I mentioned.
Opinions, eh?
So you agree with me.
That's a first, but it's just one of many to come.
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2013/08/22 05:53:18
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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PredaKhaine wrote:
Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman
Guilliman fought Lorgar and Angron (and didn't die)
To be fair, Kor Phaeron beat Guilliman through psychic powers, which Lorgar couldn't use against Roboute.
If he could, is there really any question who would have won?
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2013/08/22 07:09:51
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Executing Exarch
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Nope, Guilliman would be paste.
Plot armour is great isn't it
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Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
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2013/08/22 12:27:27
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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BlaxicanX wrote:So you agree with me.
No, just a miscommunication on my part. But the context should have made that clear.
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2013/08/22 17:01:08
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.
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2013/08/22 18:41:25
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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At the start of the Heresy:
Tier 1
Horus
Lion El'Jonson
Angron
Jaghatai Khan
Sanguinius
Tier 2
Fulgrim
Guilliman
Rogal Dorn
Leman Russ
Corax
Konrad Cruze
Tier 3
Ferrus Manus
Magnus
Vulkan
Perturabo
Mortarion
Tier 4
Lorgar
Unknown: Alpharius/Omegon
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/08/22 20:23:28
My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts 
2,000pts 
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2013/08/22 19:39:32
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Wondering Why the Emperor Left
Canada
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I assuming you meant Gulliman?
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2013/08/22 19:47:44
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Well, Vulkan is apparently a true immortal, so that shakes up his ranking.
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2013/08/22 20:23:15
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts
2,000pts
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2013/08/22 20:30:12
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Ghastly Grave Guard
Uk
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Horus is obviously the most powerful and I think second place is a tie between Magnus, Sanguinius and Angron.
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2013/08/23 05:29:41
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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Omegus wrote:Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.
What makes you think he wasn't a psyker though?
Also, Lorgar is explicitly more powerful than him in that regard, in that very book. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Based on?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 05:29:55
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2013/08/23 07:56:44
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Ghastly Grave Guard
Uk
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 Void__Dragon wrote: Omegus wrote:Technically Kor Phaeron was using full-blown sorcery since he wasn't a psyker.
What makes you think he wasn't a psyker though?
Also, Lorgar is explicitly more powerful than him in that regard, in that very book.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Based on?
Based on the fact that other primaries claim he is the most powerful, Fulgrim, Corax, Sanguinius. If I was a better man I would actually find the sources for this statement but I'm far too tired. Maybe later.
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2013/08/23 08:00:53
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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When do they claim he was the most powerful though?
Corax says he thinks that he would beat Angron, but IIRC also says that Corax himself has bested Horus while sparring.
Horus can't be the most powerful, no matter how skilled he is, because he has absolutely no psychic prowess. We see how well physical strength and skill availed Guilliman when up against a psyker not near Lorgar or Magnus' caliber, and Lorgar himself could telepathically command Horus.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 08:01:07
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2013/08/23 08:11:30
Subject: Fighting Prowess of primachs
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Executing Exarch
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Void__Dragon wrote:When do they claim he was the most powerful though? Corax says he thinks that he would beat Angron, but IIRC also says that Corax himself has bested Horus while sparring. Horus can't be the most powerful, no matter how skilled he is, because he has absolutely no psychic prowess. We see how well physical strength and skill availed Guilliman when up against a psyker not near Lorgar or Magnus' caliber, and Lorgar himself could telepathically command Horus.
When did Corax come out with that? I thought in Ravens Flight he said he'd be going to his death if he fought Angron. But its early and my memory is fuzzy... I remember having that impression anyway - but that could've been because Angron was backed up by his pile of frothing madmen legion Did Lorgar manage to command Horus before or after his fight with guilliman?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 08:12:55
Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
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Fluff for the Fluff God! 
