I just wanted to get a list of things your friends do that cross that grey area when playing . Every group has that "one guy" who is trying to push the boundaries intentionally. I'll post my friend up to start, who plays necrons and tau. For instance, he shaves all of his bases down by about a small amount to try to get cover saves. He also cuts the small clear polls on his tau drones for the same purpose. What stuff have you guys seen, it can be rules or modeling.
curran12 wrote: I don't see how that is 'tactics' when it is clearly and demonstrably 'cheating'.
Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.
There I corrected the title to represent it better. That and apparently had a typo in the title to boot.
curran12 wrote: I don't see how that is 'tactics' when it is clearly and demonstrably 'cheating'.
Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.
Why not say something? What exactly does rolling your eyes accomplish?
Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.
It's certainly none of my business, but may I ask why you put up with someone who is blatantly cheating in your face? I mean, you say 'out of respect', but what does that mean? This guy does not respect you enough to play fairly, so why does he get a pass from it? By not calling him and working towards changing him, you are sending the message that it is perfectly okay to cheat to him.
I had one game where a guy had rolled all of his pyschic powers, warlord traits, and psychic tests behind a building on his side of the table. It's not something I really thought about at first, until I realized that in a 500 point doubles tourney he got pretty lucky to get iron arm on both of his tervigons every single round. He was using some odd conversion model that he had and had a very wide frame because of extended claws. He would often have one claw arm in terrain and try to call it 25% obscured for MC. He'd really use it to his advantage and even tried assaulting two units at once with it. To make it worse, his partner was cheating too.
Only thing I've seen recently was a guy running Tau and he very conveniently kept forgetting which upgrades his suits had. The bright side is he went against my friend who is amazing with numbers and memorizing the codex and called him at every step the guy tried adding extra equipment.
I can't even think of an instance where 1-2 mm made a difference for determining a cover save.
"Ah yes, that totally switches it from 22 to 25% cover."
If someone is willing to argue that with me, I already assume they're a dick and have no respect for them.
I guess I get the point of the thread. Some of us have friends that skirt the line of cheating and we tolerate them because we're friends outside of games. However, I will give them endless crap when I find them cheating to discourage it in the future.
Thats correct, its not tactics. That being said i don't call it cheating out respect for the person i'm using an example. It's the same as when he shows me the models he has modified and I roll my eyes instead of saying anything. Thats why i gave it two names. I may not agree with the logic behind them but that doesn't mean i don't find it funny to see some the great lengths people will go to get an edge up.
It's certainly none of my business, but may I ask why you put up with someone who is blatantly cheating in your face? I mean, you say 'out of respect', but what does that mean? This guy does not respect you enough to play fairly, so why does he get a pass from it? By not calling him and working towards changing him, you are sending the message that it is perfectly okay to cheat to him.
Simply because I've known him for around fifteen years and he has undergone a few changes in his mentality since becoming a marine. I tolerate it because in the grand scheme of things this is just a game, and like i said before its kind of amusing to me. It's me and a group of about 8 others who play together, non competitive, just for fun. If he wishes the ridicule of the group to get a cover save thats his choice.
I've seen people boost the stats of their units or power of their abilities through the cover story that they hardly play or are new to the hobby.
It is pretty clear that they didn't just make a mistake or forget because they will make a big deal over pulling out their codex to check.
I played this one dark eldar player who would do his hellion movements very quickly and claimed they were T4 due to skyboards (I called him on this) and he reluctantly pulled out his book and made some excuse.
The worst was he rolled for his WL trait and told me it boosted 1 stat for his WL's unit (I forget which stat - I think it was toughness). However, I saw him look at his codex at the WL trait table right after he rolled..... I assumed because he had just "read" the trait that he was telling the truth. Later when I got home I looked at the DE traits and the one he claimed to have rolled didn't even exist.
It was a super annoying match because he stalled his last turn just because the GW was closing up soon. So we had to call a draw even though I was going to eventually win.
Actually gossip, it might have been combat drugs, as the DE codex does not have warlord traits. And +1T is one of the results, and if his unit has drugs, they do get the benefits.
Rotary wrote: I just wanted to get a list of things your friends do that cross that grey area when playing . Every group has that "one guy" who is trying to push the boundaries intentionally. ..
They really don't.
When I'm gaming with friends, we discuss those grey areas and agree on how they should be handled. If there are 'shady' tactics happening, it's because we have agreed to play that way for giggles.
i used to cheat because of vagueness in the DE codex. wytch dodge save is vague. i think i used to take shockprow extra armour on more than it should have, dias can't take upgrades but it doesn't say that. so basically watch it on DE players
Im guilty of reverse cheating. When i see that my opponent is having a bad time or the dice is just against them and I am crushing them, I will roll my dice behind a building and claim to have missed or failed armor saves. For me it keeps the game competitive and it makes my friends feel a bit better, plus its good to avoid any rage quits when you have a very small pool of people who play locally.
Rotary wrote:Every group has that "one guy" ... who plays necrons and tau.
Yup. TFG will always float to the most powerful armies so that they can use as little effort as is required to win games. There are actually a lot of things that TFGs tend to do, like play forgeworld, play with the most of what most people call the cheesiest, and, yes, cheat. They'll also tend to think that 40k is a strategy game, and that the reason they win is because they're skilled. Likely they play in tournaments and think that means anything.
Not to say you're a TFG if you do any of those things, but if you're a TFG, you're probably doing those things.
As for common cheating, I'd say the three most common are:
1.) Movement. My tanks is going to move "six inches". Oh look, I'm in range.
2.) Templates. The blast scatter direction really is much more off the table and less on my troops. That flamer's really only hitting 3 models, and less like 6. Yes, I've positioned the flamer template so that the small end is actually touching the base of my own model, of course.
3.) Points. I don't have my codex on me, but I've played this game a million times (and am pretty good at it, look how often I win), so I know that I'm bringing a 1500 point list here, on the dot. You have to trust me, because I'm good at this game, remember?
My personal favorite is "My demon prince is flying so I can see everything." Note: on the normal base he is provided with
My turn: Me - "Ok I am going to target the demon prince."
Him - "You can't, you don't have LOS to him."
Me - "But you said he has LOS to everything since he is flying"
Him - "Yeah but you base it off the base."
Me - "So what you are saying is, you can do what ever you want as long as it benefits you?"
Him - "No, I am saying it is the rules."
This has actually occurred, to say the least he doesn't get many games anymore.
#1 I've personally seen an opponent make a few rolls on the sly behind terrain, then quickly scooped up the dice while claiming a particular result was rolled.
#2 I've encountered modeling for advantage. There's a local player here who models his army into kneeling/crouching positions. There's a Tau Riptide that occasionally makes an appearance at our FLGS, which is modeled into a very weird crouch, like it's doing the limbo. I've joked that he's going to cut the stems off his drones, and just glue them directly to the bases so that the drones look like landmines.
#3 I've seen a player or two consistently over-measure. One might call it a mistake (We all over-measure sometimes by accident, I'm sure.) but it tends to happen a lot more than it should.
#4 I haven't seen it in Warhammer, but when I played Battletech I suspected a guy was using loaded dice. They rolled a particular number very consistently. When I asked to use them, he was very, very protective of the dice and wouldn't let me handle them. I put an end to that game rather quickly.
Personal opinion on the subject: Not bothering to bring a codex with you should be considered cheating.
I'm the closest thing to "that guy" in my group, and by that, I'm pretty much the only one who actually knows all the various broken rules in the game. And then never bring them up in game.
Most of the time, I leave it up to my opponent:
Your call, do I get a cover save?
What do you think, 4 or 5 models?
I occasionally goof (who doesn't we're only human) and after the game I'll be the one who goes "Hey dude, for future reference, you screwed this up, those models are only Ld 7." or "Oops, I screwed that up, I thought it was S7 not S6. Sorry.".
The classic move front of base to back guy who ragequits when he loses, he's the highlight of my 40k life.
That said, he's still more fun to play than the guy who brings your hard counter no matter what you play, because he won't even turn up unless told what you'll be bringing. Oh, and he'll leave instead of playing if you bait-and-switch in something that's a fair match, even, let alone his own counter.
That makes me understand the OP's thing about playing with mr MFA and not calling him on it. Its helped a lot by the greatly improved chances that these people will netlist and not actually know how to play their list, I guess.
We have one guy who's developed a very suspicious way of rolling dice. He'll place them in his hand and then drop them on the table quite low so they hardly even bounce, much less roll.
No one really cares to make a fuss about it since he's so much fun to play against anyway that people mostly stay at home instead. In any large rules argument you've seen on this board he could talk even the best trolls to death from boredom if he cared to take part.
edit: and sometimes I've seen armies gone over the points limit, but that could also be an honest mistake. Except from the guys who spend time calculating point-to-kill ratios for their troops against any opponent they're likely to face...
I have a friend who has an irritating habit of turning the direction of a scatter when moving the tape from the scatter die to the originating point. Generally away from his models and towards mine.
I've got a player at my local whom I suspect of altering his lists once game has begun as well as taking more selections that he had points for (although I've never been sure enough to call him on either of these things).
However, what I notice more than anything else is what I call 'soft cheating.'
For instance, player A hits player B with a Witchfire power. Player B sighs, asks what the AP is, is told it is 2, and removes his models. Player A knows full well that Player B was entitled to a Deny the Witch roll, and says nothing.
Player A's Eldar defeat Player B's Marines in close combat. Player B fails his Leadership test, his unit breaks and escapes. In each subsequent round, Player B makes a test for the Marines, fails it, and continues to fall back, eventually off the board. Player A, no rookie to the game, is more than familiar with And They Shall Know No Fear and again keeps his mouth shut.
Not technically cheating, but shady nevertheless. This is what I mean by 'soft cheating.' Perfectly fine between vets, I suppose, by incredibly shady when perpetrated by a veteran of the hobby on a rookie.
I had a guy "boost" the stats of many of his units, hiding behind the defense that he left his codex at home. After the game, a neutral observer mentioned to me that the guy was blatantly cheating. That's pretty sad.
Funny story about someone at our FLGS:
A friend of mine was looking through his dice collection one day while we were chatting, and all of a sudden his eyes go bug-wild. "What man?" He says, "Tell me if this dice looks funny...wait there are a few more like it!" These dice had extra pips drilled out, so the 4's and 1's both looked like 5's. Interesting. We deduced that he'd actually gotten these dice in a trade with a rather well known shady player. That was pretty priceless.
Had a guy at my old hobby store who constantly, every game, every day rolled iron arm for mephistophon. When asked, he says "I have a half chance. My rolls are just good I guess"
I've never even seen him roll his powers.
Me. Oh, time to roll sychick powers.
Him, oh I already did.
Me. U did did? I didn't see you....
Him. Oh I did it over here on my rule book.
Me... What did. U get?
Him. Iron arm.
Me. again??? What else....
Him. Nothing that matters.
Generally your other sychick powers matter... So something's up.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Had a guy at my old hobby store who constantly, every game, every day rolled iron arm for mephistophon. When asked, he says "I have a half chance. My rolls are just good I guess"
I've never even seen him roll his powers.
Me. Oh, time to roll sychick powers.
Him, oh I already did.
Me. U did did? I didn't see you....
Him. Oh I did it over here on my rule book.
Me... What did. U get?
Him. Iron arm.
Me. again??? What else....
Him. Nothing that matters.
Generally your other sychick powers matter... So something's up.
Mephiston has a less than 50% chance to get Iron Arm. Specifically 33% assuming he keeps his first power if it's something else to maximise his chances. He only gets two Powers if he trades.
Davor wrote: What people do to win with plastic toy soldiers. Speaks volumes of the person.
This. I am blown away by some of the posts in this thread. I don't understand why people would go to such lengths just to win.
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generalchaos34 wrote: Im guilty of reverse cheating. When i see that my opponent is having a bad time or the dice is just against them and I am crushing them, I will roll my dice behind a building and claim to have missed or failed armor saves. For me it keeps the game competitive and it makes my friends feel a bit better, plus its good to avoid any rage quits when you have a very small pool of people who play locally.
Good for you man. That is really good sportsmanship. I've done the same just to make the game more enjoyable for those I am playing with.
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Dastrike wrote: My personal favorite is "My demon prince is flying so I can see everything." Note: on the normal base he is provided with
My turn: Me - "Ok I am going to target the demon prince."
Him - "You can't, you don't have LOS to him."
Me - "But you said he has LOS to everything since he is flying"
Him - "Yeah but you base it off the base."
Me - "So what you are saying is, you can do what ever you want as long as it benefits you?"
Him - "No, I am saying it is the rules."
This has actually occurred, to say the least he doesn't get many games anymore.
This. I am blown away by some of the posts in this thread. I don't understand why people would go to such lengths just to win.
I understand that income is much higher in the US , but wining and not wining some models can make a difference between making your army free and paying to get it .last year one dude , who was a MtG pre organiser , run away with money from over 30 people people . those were box from pre and some people wanted to buy for themselfs . Wasn't a bank robbery or nothing of that scale , but it still was a lot of cash .
What of course doesn't change the fact that cheating seems a stupid. If the orgs catch you , you will never have a place to play again and because all the communties know each other or even are made out of same people , even switching systems or games won't help.
I don't understand why people would go to such lengths just to win.
I understand that income is much higher in the US , but wining and not wining some models can make a difference between making your army free and paying to get it
But some people cheat in any game - they just want to "win" even if the only reward is, well, "winning".
After looking back I have known a few people with questionable dice habits. If a dice is cocked it is supposed to be re-rolled. I found that some of my opponents will re-roll if they rolled poorly, but if it is beneficial to them they will attempt to take it.
Guy 1) Will blatantly take the wargamer's inch(he's been caught moving 9 inches in movement on infantry). He's also infamous for moving flyers wrong despite being told everything on how they move and shoot, MULTIPLE times. We had to stop a game to explain flyers don't fly backwards. He also will not look at his codex.
Guy 2) Will rules lawyer every army that isn't his. He's been caught telling people what they can or cannot do. Which causes vets to slow the game down to prove him wrong and rookies will take his word for it. He's often either lying or outright mistaken.
While its not "cheating" one of the guys at our local FGS refuses to fight any army that is "unrealistic" !!!!! These have so far included , Any army with a flyer , any all bike armies , any army with a mix of tank and infantry ,any army that is just tanks and any Apocalypse games . If he finds himself playing any of these armies he packs his army away (and since he never played he never lost )
We have a guy at our FLGS that instead of using a dice cube as everyone else does brings in a bag of assorted dice. I noticed one day, after he rolled his to hit dice, and i remarked "theres a one in there" when he went to roll the wound, and he said "no its a three". The two outer dots had been painted the colour of the dice or had the paint scraped out of them. For leadership rolls maybe? He always shuffles around in the bag for dice when he needs them too, instead of using ones already on the table. Seems a bit suss.
I had to call a friend out on cheating during a Warmachine tournament final.
He over moved his models by half an inch every turn so he could get into his feat turn much earlier than it should have been.
The judge agreed, but I decided to let it play through as it wasn't worth losing a friend over, although he apologised and admitted he was being a douche.
Anyway, his feat turn was awful as his roll were nothing more than absolute failure. If he hit, he couldn't destroy anything. So next turn I popped my feat and got my Behemoth to slaughter his caster.
We are overall trying to stick with the right rules(we do make misstakes at times though) in my group.
But I did go to our local shop once and saw a game with demons vs SW in 5th. The demon player was super serious with everything and the Sw players one model dropped one of his arms duing the game and the demon player refused to let him put it back on.
He also claimed that that model now didn't have his plasma since it wasn't on the model.
I got pissed off even though i wasn't in that game. Thing is the demon player's whole army din't have a single gw model(40k) and he used Vermin Lords as Blood crushers as an example. I would have packed up my models and left had I been his opponent.
Fenric wrote: one model dropped one of his arms duing the game and the demon player refused to let him put it back on.
He also claimed that that model now didn't have his plasma since it wasn't on the model.
That guy is awesome. I have a friend I'd like to pit against them in a friendly game.
Savagecoyote wrote:While its not "cheating" one of the guys at our local FGS refuses to fight any army that is "unrealistic" !!!!! These have so far included , Any army with a flyer , any all bike armies , any army with a mix of tank and infantry ,any army that is just tanks and any Apocalypse games . If he finds himself playing any of these armies he packs his army away (and since he never played he never lost )
Wait, mix of tanks and infantry? does he not know how most real battles work? tanks are never sent in alone because their greatest weakness is other infantry sneaking up on them. They NEED atleast a small group hanging around unless theyre long-range artillery or something. Not to mention the other ones are totally viable as well. Depending on the area, you could definitely have an entire platoon of bike riders and have it work provided it wasnt a tunnel-rat battlefield (like downtown areas). Fliers? Its not uncommon for a soldier to mark something and call in an air strike...actually it happens a lot as aside from the A-10 most planes wont even attack the ground without someone marking the target.
We had a nid player that would always try to do the "accumulative cover save" bullcrap, even though we never let him do it he'd try 2-3 times every single game to say things like "Theres a ruin here and intervening models so thats a 3+ cover" or "You can BARELY see his head, i get a 2+ cover" - newsflash, if cover added up like that everyone would be rolling 2+/3+ covers lol...and rules say nothing unless its a vehicle about how much of the model you can see long as its actually part of his body. I play orks, i depended on cover more than him and i fight another player all the time about what the right saves for what terrain are...and this even urked me lol.
Incidentally the other guy was someone that insisted everything except an ADL was a 5+ cover, and going to ground was +1 flatout (i.e. including area terrain and ADL walls). He played Eldar/Dark Eldar so he didnt give a crap about ruins and area terrain since he never used them anyway, hence the issue lol.
However, what I notice more than anything else is what I call 'soft cheating.'
For instance, player A hits player B with a Witchfire power. Player B sighs, asks what the AP is, is told it is 2, and removes his models. Player A knows full well that Player B was entitled to a Deny the Witch roll, and says nothing.
Player A's Eldar defeat Player B's Marines in close combat. Player B fails his Leadership test, his unit breaks and escapes. In each subsequent round, Player B makes a test for the Marines, fails it, and continues to fall back, eventually off the board. Player A, no rookie to the game, is more than familiar with And They Shall Know No Fear and again keeps his mouth shut.
.
I don't really consider either of those examples cheating. I mean, you're a prick for sure, but not a cheater. It's not your job to babysit your opponent. I would, however, point out all the things he could have done after the game is over. Teach a man to fish...
I played a nid guy the other day that had 2 biovores, and I reminded him on turn 1 he didn't fire them. So he did. Then the same thing on turn 2. After that, I never reminded him again, and he didn't fire them the rest of the game. Not my fault he's forgetful.
I've been pretty lucky with rules cheating in general, the only opponent who really tried something fishy was a kid who claimed a Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment was available every turn and didn't scatter. Kept arguing even after I showed him the codex.
Not quite cheating using the rules but I did have a frustrating afternoon in a GW event where a young teen, about 12 or so, insisted on using his own huge dice that were too big to actually roll and were suspiciously prone to 6s. The things were about 2inches across! The kid ended up leaving rather than use other dice despite being asked politely by pretty much everyone.
Jimsolo wrote: However, what I notice more than anything else is what I call 'soft cheating.'
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I don't really consider either of those examples cheating. I mean, you're a prick for sure, but not a cheater. It's not your job to babysit your opponent.
Well, forgetting to fire is one thing - maybe he intended to forgo shooting?
But letting an opponent miss rules that he should use - rules that aren't optional - and only reminding him when it benefits you is surely cheating. Such as staying silent if he rolls only one dice for Ordnance armor penetration, or not reminding him about the +1A for a charge but immediately pouncing on him if he forgets the Pinning test for passengers on a destroyed transport. Those aren't things you do only if you feel like it, they're all required by the rules.
On the whole, I rarely see cheating, so I've been lucky there.
I think the worst case of cheating I've ever seen was a huge (non-apoc) game with 7 players, no real force org, and allies all over the place. We divided up points before hand and the opposing side gave 2000 points to their SM player. He put his army down and I did some quick mental maths, it came out at around 3000 points before upgrades, so I asked him to talk me through what was what. He then proceeds to tell me most of it is HQ (which was pretty obvious from the models, but we weren't using FOC so I went with it). He then showed me how he has (proxied) lysander, calgar, tigurius, sicarius and full command for all of them. So about 1500 points right there. I add up the rest of the list and tell him he needs to lose around a thousand points so we're on even sides.
He makes some changes (but not enough, still 500 over) and then just deploys a couple of squads. I ask him where the rest is, and he tells me Sicarius can infiltrate a Tac squad. I remind him this only applied to one squad (he was about to infiltrate 4) and he nodded. "I know," he says... 'I've got 4 of him."(again proxied) I point out you can only take SC once, and he just says he's given them different names....
It then takes at least half an hour to go through his list and sort it properly, delaying the game for the other 6 players.
Jimsolo wrote: However, what I notice more than anything else is what I call 'soft cheating.'
.
I don't really consider either of those examples cheating. I mean, you're a prick for sure, but not a cheater. It's not your job to babysit your opponent.
Well, forgetting to fire is one thing - maybe he intended to forgo shooting?
But letting an opponent miss rules that he should use - rules that aren't optional - and only reminding him when it benefits you is surely cheating. Such as staying silent if he rolls only one dice for Ordnance armor penetration, or not reminding him about the +1A for a charge but immediately pouncing on him if he forgets the Pinning test for passengers on a destroyed transport. Those aren't things you do only if you feel like it, they're all required by the rules.
I agree, i see this way too often, the other person's usually feigns ignorance to the rule that they've used sometimes in the same battle.
i try to let my opponents use the psychic powers they forgot, the tank in the corner they forgot to move slide up during the shooting phase. I end up with battle vision and always forget stuff so if i have an opponent that is amenable to these sporadic out of sequence adjustments i think both of us have a better time. I hate having game regrets of if only i would have remembered to cast conceal instead of that may not have been the best call...
I have been occasionally guilty of screwing up stats and rules. But I can honestly say that it has never been on purpose for my advantage. I like playing laid back, even in tourneys. If someone forgets to move a squad before they start shooting (happened twice in the last tourney) i'll remind them and let them move it before the rest of the shooting continues.
The only cheating that I saw at my FLGS recently was moving front to back. I'm not the kind of guy that makes you measure every single model exactly 6". I prefer to measure the couple in the front 6" then fill the rest in. But the guy I was playing with consistently moved his wraith lords 8 to 9" because he was going front to back. I finally called him on it, and I think he was a little embarrassed to be honest. But the rest of the game went well, and I enjoyed playing against him.
Simply put, don't be a donkey cave and enjoy the game. It's better for everyone that way.
I don't have Army Builder, so I have to do all my lists by hand. Occasionally, I make a list that breaks the FOC and don't catch it, but I always fess up when I realize what happened. The one time it happened in competitive play I informed a judge and forfeited immediately.
Interesting side note, all the hardcore cheaters I know play Tyranids. Isn't that interesting? I know Tyranids players who are just peachy, but it seems odd that the army seems to draw the shady characters in.
Ailaros wrote: . There are actually a lot of things that TFGs tend to do, like play forgeworld,
Butthurt much because you can't afford the pretty models? 98% of ForgeWorld is actually underpowered, and the stuff that is ridiculous usually gets nerfobliterated in the next iteration (see DKOK drill). Certainly their external balance is no worse than GW studio material.
The biggest problem with using forgeworld stuff is just the lack of access to it or familirization for the most part. I understand it being an indicator, but doesn't neccessarily mean that someone is TFG. Which is what Ailaros was saying if you read past that part. Or even just read the part quoted, where he says "tend" to do.
Again, it's just the stigma that you could probably bring a model with a bunch of guns on it and say "It's a forgeworld model" and people would probably believe whatever rules you made up for it because it "sounds like something they would do." I do agree that most of the stuff is rather junky. For example I think there is only like four items in the Tau section that would actually compete with what's in the Tau book, but nothing amazingly so.
Spectral Painting NI wrote: I've been pretty lucky with rules cheating in general, the only opponent who really tried something fishy was a kid who claimed a Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment was available every turn and didn't scatter. Kept arguing even after I showed him the codex.
Not quite cheating using the rules but I did have a frustrating afternoon in a GW event where a young teen, about 12 or so, insisted on using his own huge dice that were too big to actually roll and were suspiciously prone to 6s. The things were about 2inches across! The kid ended up leaving rather than use other dice despite being asked politely by pretty much everyone.
That's why I don't play against children.
Savageconvoy wrote: The biggest problem with using forgeworld stuff is just the lack of access to it or familirization for the most part. I understand it being an indicator, but doesn't neccessarily mean that someone is TFG. Which is what Ailaros was saying if you read past that part. Or even just read the part quoted, where he says "tend" to do.
Again, it's just the stigma that you could probably bring a model with a bunch of guns on it and say "It's a forgeworld model" and people would probably believe whatever rules you made up for it because it "sounds like something they would do." I do agree that most of the stuff is rather junky. For example I think there is only like four items in the Tau section that would actually compete with what's in the Tau book, but nothing amazingly so.
I don't know, the implication seemed pretty clear. "TFGs cheat. They also tend to use FW."
Making gak up for FW models is no different than making gak up for Codex models, which we've seen multiple people give examples of in this very thread. Your opponent should have a rules reference for any model he brings.
-Loki- wrote: I have a friend who has an irritating habit of turning the direction of a scatter when moving the tape from the scatter die to the originating point. Generally away from his models and towards mine.
I just call him on it, and he corrects it.
I'm so bad at interpreting Scatter rolls. It's got to the point where I don't use Blast weapons in my lists because I'm just so terrible at it. Mind you, with Eldar, I have a hard time fitting blast weapons around all those Wave Serpents!
Jimsolo wrote: I don't have Army Builder, so I have to do all my lists by hand. Occasionally, I make a list that breaks the FOC and don't catch it, but I always fess up when I realize what happened. The one time it happened in competitive play I informed a judge and forfeited immediately.
Interesting side note, all the hardcore cheaters I know play Tyranids. Isn't that interesting? I know Tyranids players who are just peachy, but it seems odd that the army seems to draw the shady characters in.
That is... odd. All the guys I've had problemswith were GK or IG players (or both...)
But as to Tyranids, my only possible idea is because Tyranids play differently from any other army by a long shot, and have many special rules not like any others. Also, They're currently a rare army, and so one that many people are wholly unfamiliar with, therefore making it easier to cheat.
I say this because I've played people who don't understand the codex at all, and there's a LOT to explain!
Savageconvoy wrote: The biggest problem with using forgeworld stuff is just the lack of access to it or familirization for the most part.
Making gak up for FW models is no different than making gak up for Codex models, which we've seen multiple people give examples of in this very thread. Your opponent should have a rules reference for any model he brings.
True, but FW as opposed to a GW Codex isn't readily available to look through in your average FLGS or among your circle of gamer friends. If someone makes stuff up about his Codex you might have actually read it and know he's wrong - when he makes stuff up about FW chances are you've never seen the book. People don't usually demand to see a unit entry in some fast pickup game after all, they just want to play and maybe finish until the last bus home leaves.
I dont think ive had anyone cheat yet. If we disagree about a rule, we just look it up and move on with the correct rule, its pretty easy and noone gets butthurt about it.
Though a few times, a friend of mine would move my models for me. Like after i beat him in assault and roll to consolidate, he'd pick up my models and move them for me without asking where i want them, or even measuring the distance :/
That said, you always have the option of not playing against a supposed FW model if the rules presented sound ridiculous. If the person using the model doesn't have the book, then tough titties.
Not sure if this is mentioned before, but I've seen a few occasions before where my opponent will try to re-roll bad results, claiming that the dice is cocked due to it resting on something tiny like a piece of basing gravel on the board. Dice wedged between two board sections, yes that's cocked. Dice touching a model's base with one side raised about 1-2mm off the ground? No, it's not cocked, deal with it ¬¬
We have a fair amount of new players to the game who forget things all the time so it's hard to not cheat some times!
A couple of times I will deliberately not remind the guy's of things so they realize them selves after the game, I think it helps to make the rule stick with them if they remember it themselves and feel cheated after wards lol.
Valkyrie wrote: Not sure if this is mentioned before, but I've seen a few occasions before where my opponent will try to re-roll bad results, claiming that the dice is cocked due to it resting on something tiny like a piece of basing gravel on the board. Dice wedged between two board sections, yes that's cocked. Dice touching a model's base with one side raised about 1-2mm off the ground? No, it's not cocked, deal with it ¬¬
Easiest way to tell if a die is cocked:
Carefully place another die on top of it, if the die falls off it is cocked.
My GK friend is pretty unreal about cover and weapon rules. FMC in area terrain? Doesn't make sense, no cover save. Orbital bombardment doesn't have Barrage? Yeah it does, don't worry it's not in there because the GK Codex is so old. Remove models from the front? No, I get to allocate wounds myself.
Ugh. Our 1750 point games end up being about 3.5 hours long due to me explaining 6th edition to him again.
Savagecoyote wrote: While its not "cheating" one of the guys at our local FGS refuses to fight any army that is "unrealistic" !!!!! These have so far included , Any army with a flyer , any all bike armies , any army with a mix of tank and infantry ,any army that is just tanks and any Apocalypse games . If he finds himself playing any of these armies he packs his army away (and since he never played he never lost )
I guess he'd might as well not play at all if he doesn't want to play against unrealistic armies like space elves, space orks, space super soldiers, robot zombies, techno fish people, Alien ripoffs, or interdimensional nightmarish creatures. That leaves Imperial Guard on foot then...guess he really isn't playing.
I dont get why people, when the accidently drop a dice, wait for the result and then pick it up again to actually 'roll' it, when it bounced a few times already...
Dragonzord wrote: I dont get why people, when the accidently drop a dice, wait for the result and then pick it up again to actually 'roll' it, when it bounced a few times already...
For consistency. If you always pick up dropped dice there's no worrying about whether you're picking it up because you don't want to mis-count or because it came up with a number you don't like. And since most methods of cheating by "rolling" a die involve dropping it so that it doesn't roll sufficiently it also makes it clear that you aren't trying to do that.
Of course I usually grab for the die before it finishes rolling, if someone always waits to see what the result is and only picks up "bad" dropped dice they're cheating and you shouldn't play against them.
I guess i should had the same friend used to have a wooden cigar size box he would roll dice in at chest height to "stop them from going all over the table" He also tried creating his own hq by using the stats of one, and special rules from others. We did harass the heck out of him for these practices. He then tried using a phone app to roll his dice which the group shot down. So i guess we have stopped him from some things but now that i think about it the list has grown pretty long.
I had a guy using a dice app to roll in a Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy game. Worst part was is he would tap away at his phone the entire time and was actually texting the GM all this shady stuff he was trying to pull behind the groups back, because I'm evil ninjaz lolz, and such. I don't think I could honestly tolerate that in a game again since it's so easy to accidentally hit the roll again function. I tried it once and would always announce it and have someone witness my roll, hoping he would catch on. Never happened.
1. The player who rolls the dice, and grabs it quickly before you get a chance to see the "successful armor save" that he just made again.
2. Measuring front to back is sometimes disturbingly common
3. Modeling for advantage
4. The guy who changes his list mysteriously. I once faced a guard player who agreed to a pick up game with me. He had only previously seen me plaing Nids. What he didn't know that I had instead brought my marines. It was just a pick up game so I was a little bit surprised to see the huge number of flamers that he had fielded. Later on he told me how they were actually melta guns.. I still stomped a mud hole in him but from that point on I was sure he had tailored his list after the fact in an effort to beat me.
Predetermining abilities before a game begins seems to be a prevalent cheating practice according to the responses in this thread. I guess a lot of players want to pick their abilities rather than being 'cinematic'?
Savageconvoy wrote: I had a guy using a dice app to roll in a Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy game. Worst part was is he would tap away at his phone the entire time and was actually texting the GM all this shady stuff he was trying to pull behind the groups back, because I'm evil ninjaz lolz, and such. I don't think I could honestly tolerate that in a game again since it's so easy to accidentally hit the roll again function. I tried it once and would always announce it and have someone witness my roll, hoping he would catch on. Never happened.
Nothing wrong with a bit of shady dealings in an rpg game, makes it easier then having to pull him away and talk with him later or pass sticky notes across the table.
It was with a very inexperienced group and he was constantly doing shady things the entire time that was more just for his own enjoyment than actually playing the game with the team. And when I mean constantly, I mean constantly. Every other minute he was texting the GM and going over in secret what he was trying to do, it's like he didn't want to play with the group.
For example I was playing a Kroot and he was playing some super psyker ninja assassin using a lot of broken rule interpretations we tried to explain to him were wrong and his goal was to become a grey knight. So while wandering through what's basically a sewer filled with acid he threw a psychic flashbang right in my character's face in the hopes he'd fall of the small ledge we were on and fall into the sewer. Ironically though I had thermal vision on and didn't notice the flash while he blinded the rest of the party and they all almost died.
He did that kind of stuff constantly and was actively working against the team even though the GM told him not to.
Happyjew wrote: In my group if we are unsure whether or not a dice is cocked we gently place a second dice on top. If it stays, it's legal.
I find it much easier to just go by whether or not the die is sitting flat... But whatever floats your boat, I guess.
For me this is part of my pregame discussion. Basically, I state up front that anything that does not land flat on a level surface is not a valid roll and if I accidentally drop a dice, I make a point to state that the roll is not valid while the dice is still in the air. I hate to say it, but cheating in 40k has been so common place over the last few years that I have gone to great lengths to be as transparent about everything I do so as not to even invite the perception that shenanigans have taken place. As it is, I am getting so old and been through so many editions, that I goof up rules and stats more than I care to admit anyhow, so I try to be extra careful. Anyhow, if its not flat on level surface, just reroll it and move on. Waiting to see if you like the roll and asking the opponent if it counts sounds to me more like "Is it ok if I cheat here?".
Funny story about that, apparently there was an incident involving to well known personalities at GE Pasadena where a dice landed flat on one of those super thin blast templates and the other player demanded a reroll because this counted as "cocked" and even called the organizer over to argue it. Sadly, this was not a surprising turn of events for those familiar with the parties involved...
Happyjew wrote: In my group if we are unsure whether or not a dice is cocked we gently place a second dice on top. If it stays, it's legal.
SAME
We do this as well, though, tbh, I don't see the point. Never once have I seen a die passed the "second die on top test".
The common (I say common, cheating is rare in my group thankfully, but if cheating occurs it's this) one in our group is moving too far. Picking up dice quickly occasionally happens. And occasionally people write lists that are over points. I was quite disappointed the other day: One of my best gaming buddies brought over 1000 points to a 750 pick-up game of 40k we had the other day. He managed to squeeze in Ragnar, a Wolf Lord, a Rune Priest, two squads of 10 Grey Hunters and a 5-man pack of Skyclaws into that "750" points. I didn't notice until afterwards when I reflected on the game (I lost) and realised, through my good knowledge of the SW dex that he was over quite considerably. The game was fun though and I can't really blame him (well, I can, but) because he thinks Eldar are OP (though he thinks most things are OP).
1) the quick roll and scoop.
- solution: kindly ask player to roll in a area you can both see, even offer to help pick out dice that dont make the cut (such as failed weapon skill etc)
2) Forgetting the rules
- ask to bring the codex, if not present kindly remind them that they should always have it on hand in-case they need to reference things.
3) the Gamers inch!
This is a honest mistake I see newbies make. When measuring a few inches off the table they have a tendency to lean forward during the move giving themselves extra distance.
- explain how its a common issue and if they could measure closer to the ground then it wont occur.
4) The list tailor
- I lie about the number of armies I have or spin a fancy tale about just finishing a new army that I want to play (which I dont bring).
generalchaos34 wrote: Im guilty of reverse cheating. When i see that my opponent is having a bad time or the dice is just against them and I am crushing them, I will roll my dice behind a building and claim to have missed or failed armor saves. For me it keeps the game competitive and it makes my friends feel a bit better, plus its good to avoid any rage quits when you have a very small pool of people who play locally.
I'm guilty of reverse cheating, too! It looks bad to concede a game that you really don't want to finish up, so I will say I failed morale checks and armor saves and begin removing models just to end the game. The worst case of this is when I really didn't want to play against our store's TFG, so when he went to the bathroom I ended up having two terrible deep strike mishaps, resulting in the loss of my two strongest units on turn 2. Horrible coincidence.
Happyjew wrote: I'm the closest thing to "that guy" in my group, and by that, I'm pretty much the only one who actually knows all the various broken rules in the game. And then never bring them up in game.
Most of the time, I leave it up to my opponent:
Your call, do I get a cover save?
What do you think, 4 or 5 models?
I occasionally goof (who doesn't we're only human) and after the game I'll be the one who goes "Hey dude, for future reference, you screwed this up, those models are only Ld 7." or "Oops, I screwed that up, I thought it was S7 not S6. Sorry.".
Man this. If it's not a tourney, this all the way. I let my opponent make the call as i game predominantly with several of my best friends. I used to be the uber competitive one in the group, now i play to have a good time.
Savageconvoy wrote: It was with a very inexperienced group and he was constantly doing shady things the entire time that was more just for his own enjoyment than actually playing the game with the team. And when I mean constantly, I mean constantly. Every other minute he was texting the GM and going over in secret what he was trying to do, it's like he didn't want to play with the group.
For example I was playing a Kroot and he was playing some super psyker ninja assassin using a lot of broken rule interpretations we tried to explain to him were wrong and his goal was to become a grey knight. So while wandering through what's basically a sewer filled with acid he threw a psychic flashbang right in my character's face in the hopes he'd fall of the small ledge we were on and fall into the sewer. Ironically though I had thermal vision on and didn't notice the flash while he blinded the rest of the party and they all almost died.
He did that kind of stuff constantly and was actively working against the team even though the GM told him not to.
Sounds like a gakky GM.
Anyway, I've long ago learned to forestall any making up of rules and "forgetting the codex at home" by bringing a digital copy of all codices on a tablet.
Lets see... I've had people move their flyers 40" to make sure they could vector strike me. I've seen many shady die shenanigans such as specifically picking certain dice to roll, or grabbing them a bit to quickly for my taste. I've seen more than one list swapped out last second when my opponent saw what I brought. I've even seen FOC chart issues like extra HQs. And on and on...
However, I've also gotten several of my own armies rules wrong, sometimes badly so. I've taken saves I shouldn't have and told my opponent that a particular weapon was 1 AP point lower than it was (making it worse is that the weapon is the most common in my army and I definitely should know it's stats without thinking twice !). In one game I even insisted a weapon instagibbed a guy on a failed wounds test based on the wounds the model had left; it should have been his original wounds value. None of that was intentional at all. Just mistakes made when playing some random other person. For some reason I get nervous and forget stuff. Especially if I feel I have an seriously uphill battle coming.
Sometimes mistakes are made. I don't think that's cheating; although there is certainly enough of it out there that you should know how your opponents army plays and pay attention.
I do the whole reverse cheating thing too. Mostly I play my son, who is learning the rules as we play, one or 2 new ones at a time. Sometimes....I just dont win. I think its great when he gets excited cause he beat Daddies Space Marines.
When playing other adults, I ALWAYS offer my list before games, explain anything that is different then the models, show them all my "characters" (sgt's, hq, so on) and ask for opinions when using a template weapon. I say 3 orks, you?
I play for fun. Not for winning. Oh boy I won a GAME with my little plastic space men... I am king of the world......you must all bow to me!!!
Valkyrie wrote: Not sure if this is mentioned before, but I've seen a few occasions before where my opponent will try to re-roll bad results, claiming that the dice is cocked due to it resting on something tiny like a piece of basing gravel on the board. Dice wedged between two board sections, yes that's cocked. Dice touching a model's base with one side raised about 1-2mm off the ground? No, it's not cocked, deal with it ¬¬
Easiest way to tell if a die is cocked:
Carefully place another die on top of it, if the die falls off it is cocked.
Edit: Didn't see the 3rd page
The problem with this method is it results in a fair amount of false positives. I've found the die placed on top slips off rather easily, even when the facing of the first D6 is almost flat. This still allows selective enforcement of cocked dice.
Valkyrie wrote: Not sure if this is mentioned before, but I've seen a few occasions before where my opponent will try to re-roll bad results, claiming that the dice is cocked due to it resting on something tiny like a piece of basing gravel on the board. Dice wedged between two board sections, yes that's cocked. Dice touching a model's base with one side raised about 1-2mm off the ground? No, it's not cocked, deal with it ¬¬
Easiest way to tell if a die is cocked:
Carefully place another die on top of it, if the die falls off it is cocked.
Edit: Didn't see the 3rd page
The problem with this method is it results in a fair amount of false positives. I've found the die placed on top slips off rather easily, even when the facing of the first D6 is almost flat. This still allows selective enforcement of cocked dice.
We always do it so that the person who wants the result to stand has to place the die.
Ultimate test for cocked dice is if they call it more often for their successful roles to be rerolled than unsuccessful roles.
The dice habit I hate is when they roll a big bunch of dice then pick out the successful ones faster than I can see, please do it the other way around, pick out the unsuccessful ones so I can double check before you scoop.
Looky Likey wrote: Ultimate test for cocked dice is if they call it more often for their successful roles to be rerolled than unsuccessful roles.
The dice habit I hate is when they roll a big bunch of dice then pick out the successful ones faster than I can see, please do it the other way around, pick out the unsuccessful ones so I can double check before you scoop.
When they scoop, just say they don't count because you didn't see it. Simple as that. For me, you take the unsuccessful ones, so your opponent can see them. The once he says ok, then pick them up and roll to wound, and then he can take the successful dice and roll to save.
I had a buddy of mine back in fifth ed that his eldar had a 4++ on his dire avengers cause at the time my witches had their 4++ in cc.
another time he tried to say his eldar had so rediculous rule where he caused fear...needless to say i played him rarely and sadly he is no longer here...ok guy horrible cheat but after a while he did get better so i guess all the rules corrections did help him become a better player. hell i went out of my way and bought the codex just so i know what his stuff did so i could correct him.
I am super paranoid of being TFG because i hate TFG. I really just want to have a good time. My thing is usually forget to do one thing or another in a phase or i will forget that a dread was unable to fire the turn he somehow gets a head shot on a riptide and blows it up killing half my opponents army and then have to make the difficult decision of whether to tell them that that was a mistake. lol. I am really bad about forgeting to cast my buffs at the beginning of a turn and will sometimes blurt out right before firing that "OH CRAP I FORGOT TO CAST PRESCIEINCE!" "do you mind if i roll for it now?" I don't know if that is cheating but i iwll usually apologize a lot.
I don't play with people that would cheat but i think i did at one time but i am pretty sure the game was harder for him than it was for me and he was just trying to get it over with. He would have won either way but i was too busy drinking and having my marines try epic stuff to really care who was winning. If we both have a good time we both win.
It's one thing forgetting things. It's another to ask, "OH CRAP I FORGOT TO CAST PRESCIEINCE!" "do you mind if i roll for it now?"
You shouldn't be allowed to roll it. Why? So YOU WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN.
In a fun game, it's good to let things slide. But letting it slide all the time, you get use to it and then not learn anything. So if you forget, you should be saying to yourself, you can't roll for it, so you will finally learn not to do it again.
Hell I forget all the time, and when I am corrected and my opponent says redo it, I say thank you for reminding me, but I will not redo it, since I want to remember this for next time when I get hammered.
Davor wrote: It's one thing forgetting things. It's another to ask, "OH CRAP I FORGOT TO CAST PRESCIEINCE!" "do you mind if i roll for it now?"
You shouldn't be allowed to roll it. Why? So YOU WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN.
In a fun game, it's good to let things slide. But letting it slide all the time, you get use to it and then not learn anything. So if you forget, you should be saying to yourself, you can't roll for it, so you will finally learn not to do it again.
Hell I forget all the time, and when I am corrected and my opponent says redo it, I say thank you for reminding me, but I will not redo it, since I want to remember this for next time when I get hammered.
Totally! If i forget more than once or twice in a game i will just say screw and continue. But I wouldn't mind either way, it doesnt matter to me if someone cast their buff that effect the shooting phase before movement or whatever. I don't really think punishing someone for something as simple as that in a game is really worthwhile for anyone. I am all about having the best time possible. If someone rolls and the dice hits a model or whatever and lands badly i will ask them if they would like to reroll because it hit a guy. If your strategy for winning is dirty tricks or taking advantage of someone who just forgot to do something in its proper order you really need to sit down and reevaluate your life.
Technically I cheat everytime I pull out my Tyberos the Red Wake as I don't have the IA book. But, my friend does, I took note of them, and make sure my opponent is fine with them beforehand, and if not, I take Vulkan instead as they cost the same.
TechMarine1 wrote: It here is a guy in the group at our FLGS that built a tervigon out of a carnifex.
The Tervigon is a relatively new model..... if he had a conversion before hand ( which usually were Carnifex's ) I wouldn't hold that against him now.
There's a guy in our FLGS that has cooked dice. He never scatters and has 10 dice to roll for hits / wounds and 2 dice for LD tests. Sadly, with all those 6's and low LD rolls... he can still lose.
Davor wrote:It's one thing forgetting things. It's another to ask, "OH CRAP I FORGOT TO CAST PRESCIEINCE!" "do you mind if i roll for it now?"
You shouldn't be allowed to roll it. Why? So YOU WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN.
In a fun game, it's good to let things slide. But letting it slide all the time, you get use to it and then not learn anything. So if you forget, you should be saying to yourself, you can't roll for it, so you will finally learn not to do it again.
Hell I forget all the time, and when I am corrected and my opponent says redo it, I say thank you for reminding me, but I will not redo it, since I want to remember this for next time when I get hammered.
Agreed. Its one thing if its something to keep track of you normally dont but in a tournament setting or practice-tournament setting, youre suppose to know your list. When i first started playing Tau you have no flippin idea how many times i forgot to thrust move lol. If i caught it before my opponent started moving i asked if i could do it real quick but now its my own damn fault since ive played them enough to know better. Actually lost a crisis bomb with a buffmander in it because i forgot to thrust move after deepstriking, i caught it but at this point i wasnt a new tau player so i just went "FETH MY LIFE!" as he flew a helldrake near it rofl
Davor wrote: It's one thing forgetting things. It's another to ask, "OH CRAP I FORGOT TO CAST PRESCIEINCE!" "do you mind if i roll for it now?"
You shouldn't be allowed to roll it. Why? So YOU WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN.
In a fun game, it's good to let things slide. But letting it slide all the time, you get use to it and then not learn anything. So if you forget, you should be saying to yourself, you can't roll for it, so you will finally learn not to do it again.
Hell I forget all the time, and when I am corrected and my opponent says redo it, I say thank you for reminding me, but I will not redo it, since I want to remember this for next time when I get hammered.
Meh, I'm of the opinion that we're here to play a fun game, it sucks when your master plan is foiled because your commander forgot to order the psyker to do his thing. I mean, unless this is a tournament setting, I really don't care if you go ahead and roll that Prescience after you're supposed to, or if you take that jet pack movement after I've already started moving. As long as it's not something cheesy like measuring from your new position to cast a psychic power rather than your old position (giving you an extra 6" of range) then I'm happy to let you retroactively do stuff.
I had a friend (one of only 3 of us in the area that played), who had a fully themed table of a fortress that one side was attacking. this included a trench system that was determined to be hindering terrain. long story short it was set on very long table edge (leading to the fortress) and a small (4ft) table edge to deploy. oh did i mention that the table was the exact length of his artillery range....never played there again.
I think I am doing the reverse of modeling for benefits. Most of models have bases bigger or highier than gw bases. Plenty of them stand on additonaly elevated ground on their bases.
Whiskered wrote: I think I am doing the reverse of modeling for benefits. Most of models have bases bigger or highier than gw bases. Plenty of them stand on additonaly elevated ground on their bases.
I knew a guy who used the Big Gun Apocalypse dice and would only hold them 2-3 inches off the table. He would place them on his open palm and just tip his hand sideways. They would only "roll" to the next side so he could load whatever result he wanted.
One of our players tends to roll his dice with a dice cup lift it up tell everything has hit and immediately picks them up to do his next roll.
After telling him to stop he normally does but he tries to get away with it at the start of almost every game and especially if hes playing against new players in our club.
The consequences were that nobody wanted to play him anymore. He used to be there almost every week but since the last 3 or 4 times he came by he didnt find someone for a game he didnt show up for a while now. He's also that kind of player that likes to misinterpret his rules in his favour and if you ask to read the rule by yourself he gets angry. Sometimes he even makes up rules when playing with people that dont know his vibe.
I hope we never see him again.
Other than that i wouldnt accuse anyone in our gaming group of purposefully cheating. Its just pathetic anyway. If someone has to cheat to beat me - at least he knows for himself that his only chance was by cheating. I cant imagine thats a good feeling.
I had a guy at my LGS that mounted his marines on rocks so they could see over other squads. He also insisted on using a Soulgrinder vs a Defiller so that the cannon was able to fire over his Land raider. Plus much much more, he was eventually banned from every store in the area.
As for all the dice rolling issues I have always wanted GW to write in rules that you must roll out of a cup. It would stop all of those lets say Special rolling tricks.
generalchaos34 wrote: Im guilty of reverse cheating. When i see that my opponent is having a bad time or the dice is just against them and I am crushing them, I will roll my dice behind a building and claim to have missed or failed armor saves. For me it keeps the game competitive and it makes my friends feel a bit better, plus its good to avoid any rage quits when you have a very small pool of people who play locally.
I hate that.
Either we play a competitive game where someone has to loose and someone wins, or we play a fun game where I have no qualms to make bad decisions (Apocalypse is a good start for that) and just want to see (in my imagination) things blow up and experience ridiculous scenes.
When I loose, yes ... I get emotional sometimes too, but I have no grudge against the other player - normaly on my bad luck or over-/underpowered units. When I win combats or even the game because someone let me I would feel even more unhappy. I have no problem with loosing, I don't like it ... but I don't want to gain or win because someone helps me. Everything I achieve I want to have done myself!
/Edit: ad Topic:
I'm sure I've cheated a dozen times because I still do not friggin know/remember all the rules - most recently I experienced I only get ONE roll for Jokaeros, I simply overread that, so until now I was cheating there.
But I never ever do that on purpose - and I expect the same for people I play with.
There's a guy in our FLGS that has cooked dice. He never scatters and has 10 dice to roll for hits / wounds and 2 dice for LD tests. Sadly, with all those 6's and low LD rolls... he can still lose.
Just roll his dice, too. How can he object without calling himself a cheater.
There's a guy in our FLGS that has cooked dice. He never scatters and has 10 dice to roll for hits / wounds and 2 dice for LD tests. Sadly, with all those 6's and low LD rolls... he can still lose.
Just roll his dice, too. How can he object without calling himself a cheater.
Sorry, I have OCD, I can't let you touch my dice.
That said, take brand new unopened store dice to a game with him next time, ask him to use those. Although, being a perfectly proficient dice fraud (I don't do it on the table, but I also won't ever compete at 40k as a result) I know that someone who wants to cheat can, and with a touch of social engineering (less valuable units just happen to FAIL all their saves, for example) will do so. If you're sure someone is cheating, just don't bother to play them, same as the dreaded list-tailor (my most common encounter)
Also, embarrasingly, I misread my rules, and use kroot pulse rounds to kill a rhino from the front via HPs once, just after the eldar release. (I had not until then actually gotten tofire the kroot at anything, oddly) I allow happily for people making mistakes, I simply won't play with people who cheat unless dragged into it by the missus (she constantly gets me into games with the guy who heard me say "I'm bringing my guard" and went over to his armies (we were at his house) to get out all the models with flamers). Its just not fun, when I could be playing against someone else.
Nobody_Holme wrote: That said, he's still more fun to play than the guy who brings your hard counter no matter what you play, because he won't even turn up unless told what you'll be bringing. Oh, and he'll leave instead of playing if you bait-and-switch in something that's a fair match, even, let alone his own counter.
We have a guy like this in our FoW group. He'll watch a game and pick who he wants to play and set up the game. Then he goes and builds his army to completely counter the army he watched being played. This is the primary reason most of us bring two armies to each session so that when this happens, he comes over with his tailored army all cocky and then gets really upset when you start putting away the minis on the table and pulling out the other army that is not even remotely the same as the first one. Oddly he hasn't figured out that we are doing it to him on purpose.
The old measure from front of base to back manuever is a classic, especially when moving a tank and trying to take an extra move equal to the length of the vehicle. Another is the always rolling dice behind some terrain piece so that you can't see what you actually rolled shtick. We usually keep the 40k box lid sitting nearby and do all rolling in that so everyone can see exactly what is going on. At crucial times if someone forgets and rolls an important roll on the table, the terrain piece in the way is picked up by the roller so everyone can see their roll.
Chuckling at the lengths people will go to get extra cover saves. Shaving/sanding bases down just sounds so tedious and ludicrous that I just can't imagine someone doing it. Modeling using kneeling legs makes some amount of sense since infantry should be conforming to cover, but extreme positioning of walkers specifically to get an advantage like having the walker literally crawling on its base are obnoxious too.
As for unit cheats as soon as someone says "I think it is..." we make them open the book and look it up directly. It helps that I primarily play with friends and almost never play with strangers anymore. That really limits the general limit of shenanigans that I have to deal with in games.
People rolling for all psy powers at once, rather than one at a time.
Ignoring LOS for vehicle weapons.
Willfully forgetting what psy powers they can take.
Not going by FAQ updates, on purpose.
Rigged dice (yes I've seen them, mostly for seize rolls)
The issue with rolling all at once is the decision to swap for the primaris.
If I need to roll 1 time, then decide if I want that power or swap, before I roll my second roll it makes a big difference.
VS
I roll say 3 dice, re-roll duplicates, then choose which if any to swap.
For instance I have 3 rolls on say divination.
Currently say I roll a 6 and don't want scriers gaze, so I swap for prescience, then I roll again, and get another 6, now I must keep that power because I already swapped, then I roll my 3rd roll and keep whatever that is as well say a 2. SO I get Prescience, Scriers gaze, and 4++ save
If I roll all 3 at once and roll the same 3 numbers 6,6,2. I re-roll the second 6, and say get a 3. Now I drop the 6 for prescience. I end up with Prescience, Misfortune, and 4++ save.
I see your point but apart from Divination none of the Primaris are really decent enough to make a difference. And if you're not taking Prescience why roll on Divination?
Anyway, I see your point but to me I wouldn't have a problem if it means I can play the game quicker.
Rotary wrote: I just wanted to get a list of things your friends do that cross that grey area when playing . Every group has that "one guy" who is trying to push the boundaries intentionally. I'll post my friend up to start, who plays necrons and tau. For instance, he shaves all of his bases down by about a small amount to try to get cover saves. He also cuts the small clear polls on his tau drones for the same purpose. What stuff have you guys seen, it can be rules or modeling.
None, and I find the term 'common cheating practices' bizarre, as I've only met a small handful of players in my 10yrs of wargames who actively cheat.
Deadshot wrote: I see your point but apart from Divination none of the Primaris are really decent enough to make a difference. And if you're not taking Prescience why roll on Divination?
Anyway, I see your point but to me I wouldn't have a problem if it means I can play the game quicker.
It is not just divination, Telepathy is definitely worth swapping for pychic shriek is very good. Telekenesis is also not bad and you might swap if you knew all your other powers, even biomancy (I would swap Haemorage for smite if I did not want to keep it to increase odds on getting better powers.
In general you don't because when you roll on these trees you are trying to get better powers, but you might take the primaris more if you knew what else you were rolling.
As for reasons you are not taking prescience...I play screamer star Daemons so the order of powers I am looking for before I swap for prescience
Forewarning (4++ save)
Misfortune
Scriers Gaze
Precognition (on fate weaver, or in an FMC list on the Lord of Change)
Anything Else I would swap for prescience.
So going your way, I always end up with as advantageous set up as possible. Instead of rolling Foreboding (overwatch at BS) as my first roll, but keeping it to increase the chance I get Forewarning, because that is the power I want most.
There I guess is a slight disadvantage as well for rolling all at once, that if I get the power early on (say my first roll) I might then swap power trees.
Other power trees where rolling all at once helps
Any Tree with 3 options and a primaris, you always guarantee getting all the powers you want.
Eldar power trees (want fortune, don't want some others, might not swap)
juraigamer wrote: People rolling for all psy powers at once, rather than one at a time.
The only time I do this is when rolling for my Warlock Council as every model has the exact same load-out. The Warlocks who split off to lead Guardians (if any) each get their own separate roll, and any Warlocks with Spears are rolled as a separate group.
. Every group has that "one guy" who is trying to push the boundaries intentionally. I'll post my friend up to start, who plays necrons and tau. For instance, he shaves all of his bases down by about a small amount to try to get cover saves. He also cuts the small clear polls on his tau drones for the same purpose. What stuff have you guys seen, it can be rules or modeling. 
