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Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 21:34:22


Post by: Jihadin


We have not have one of these in a long time. I feel we need to exercise our brains and help you all think outside the "Box"

Long READ

Nuclear warfare is not necessary to cause a breakdown of our society. You take a large city like Los Angeles, New York, Chicago — their water supply comes from hundreds of miles away and any interruption of that, or food, or power for any period of time you're going to have riots in the streets.

Our society is so fragile, so dependent on the interworking of things to provide us with the goods and services that you don't need nuclear warfare to fragment us anymore than the Romans needed it to cause their eventual downfall.

— Gene Roddenberry


Spoiler:
While some may consider such a discussion a waste of time, more and more people are coming to the conclusion that preparations of some sort are warranted in our current troubled environment — on many fronts.

Surviving Economic CollapseHow much preparation individuals are willing to do is usually in direct correlation to their belief that something catastrophic could happen, making life as we know it a much more difficult task.

It is a proven fact throughout history that when disruptions of any kind occur, those who made even the smallest preparations typically fare much better than those who gave no thought at all in this regard.

Today I want to share with you a list I have compiled of the things that could potentially happen — and that threaten our way of life in a small or large degree.

There is no way to predict these things, but anyone with common sense can see that the possibility is likely we could experience one or more of these events at some point in the future...

Any single event or combination of events could cause terrible and debilitating circumstances for a short or long period of time:
◾Natural disasters such as hurricanes, floods, tornados, volcanic eruptions, solar flares, earthquakes, and other geophysical events
◾Possibility of wars, nuclear wars, nuclear reactor meltdowns, and radiation fallout
◾Financial meltdown (derivative, debt crisis, economic collapse and/or bond implosion) causing currencies to implode and governments to topple
◾Problems with the exploration, delivery, or production of oil, the lifeblood of modern economies
◾Spread of disease such as the Black Plague or a bird flu pandemic
◾Power grid failure
◾Political anarchy or revolution
◾Racial strife or civil war
◾Electromagnetic pulse event



With any of these scenarios listed above (and there is a host of others I have probably not even thought about), you could have localized, national, or global unrest and even war for an indefinite period of time depending on the scope and duration of the event(s).

An item that is not on the list — but could be equally devastating to individual families — is the loss of a job.

Losing a job can be a catastrophic event if one is not properly prepared. Most families find themselves living paycheck to paycheck with little in the way of savings and almost nothing in the way of preparations.

For years, I had brought up the issue of preparedness to a close friend of mine.

When I first started talking about it, my friend and his wife basically blew me off... but I kept bringing the topic up.

Eventually they thought it prudent to at least get some sort of food storage together. Their family was accustomed to an upper middle class income and living comfortably in suburbia with their three children...

About a year after making their food preparations, the breadwinner of the family lost his job and ended up working a series of almost minimum wage jobs trying to make ends meet.

He kept applying for better-paying jobs in his field of expertise — but no matter how qualified he was nobody was interested in hiring someone at his previous salary level or his age (late fifties).

The family's lifestyle was devastated and they eventually lost their home...

In a recent conversation with this friend, he told me that without their food storage, things would have been immeasurably more difficult. He thanked me for being a good friend and pushing the issue when he and his wife weren’t listening.

The family is now living a greatly reduced lifestyle, but keeping their heads above water and continuing with their preparations.

I share this story because on an individual basis, there is a host of things that can happen in which being prepared could make a huge difference.

We often, as a people in general, terms take things for granted and think 'this' or 'that' will never happen to us. In addition to a major job loss due to a myriad of reasons, you could lose your health or the ability to do your job.

Unfortunately, things of this nature are happening to more and more people every day. In fact, I'm certain all of us have been affected to some degree by similar stories of friends and relatives.

Our Current State of Affairs

The world in general seems afflicted on so many different fronts.

When you look at the list above, any rational person could easily see one or more of these scenarios occur within their lifetime.

Aside from the geophysical things that seem to be going haywire, and could be explained simply as the planet’s cycles, there are plenty of man-made catastrophes that loom on the horizon...

Never has the planet had as many people as it does now. With increased population numbers, there is increased pressure for resources.

This is a key point on why you want to stay invested in commodities of all kinds.

More countries seek nuclear devices than ever before and recent advancements in technology make this much easier than any time before in history.

Biological and chemical weapons are also much easier to manufacture — and are being stored by an increasing number of very scary countries.

Oil markets are tighter than ever as demand from countries like China and India increases, but new supply cannot keep up with the increasing demand.

The financial debacle of the world economies needs no introduction to my readers. In short, bad times — really bad times — for any number of reasons could and probably will be coming to a location near you.

Unless you and your family take this possibility quite seriously, if and when something does happen, you could very well find yourself in some extremely difficult circumstances. Just look at the latest news coming out of Greece, as reported by Reuters, below...


This is happening right now — and it’s only going to spread.

When the political and economic systems of entire nations collapse the consequences are devastating.

Earlier this year pharmacies and hospitals in Greece were unable to provide life saving medicines due to a shortages caused by a freeze in the flow of credit from manufacturers to distributors to patients. A collapse in the country’s economy has forced many Greeks to turn to black market barter economies and has left millions financially devastated, with no hope of finding an income stream for the foreseeable future.

The credit system of the entire country is in shambles. So much so that reports are emerging about food shortages and hunger within the Greek prison system, suggesting that serious problems in the food delivery chain have begun to materialize.

As Nigel Farage warned recently, we are beginning to see the rise of extreme political parties as a consequence of the total and utter desperation of the populace.

Today the news gets even worse. Greece’s Regulatory Authority for Energy (RAE) announced an emergency meeting to deal with what can only be construed as a tell-tale sign that this crisis is very rapidly reaching critical mass and may spiral out of control in the very near future:

Greece’s power regulator RAE told Reuters on Friday it was calling an emergency meeting next week to avert a collapse of the debt-stricken country’s electricity and natural gas system.

“RAE is taking crisis initiatives throughout next week to avert the collapse of the natural gas and electricity system,” the regulator’s chief Nikos Vasilakos told Reuters.

RAE took the decision after receiving a letter from Greece’s natural gas company DEPA, which threatened to cut supplies to electricity producers if they failed to settle their arrears with the company.

You may have thought the financial collapse of 2008 was bad. That was just a warm-up.

The main event is staring us in the face, and the whole of Europe has front-row seats.

What is happening in Europe is just a precursor for what will eventually be coming to the United States...

I personally witnessed what can happen within a very short period of time when food is no longer available to the public.

I was in my early twenties, living in Paris, France.

Because of an extended truckers' strike, the food stores were cleared out within 24 hours of the announcement. Within five days, normally law-abiding citizens took to the streets and began threatening anyone who had food...

Those with no food quickly crossed the line of sanity and started desperately looking to take food from those who had it by any means necessary.

Economic CollapseThese events were never properly covered by the news media (what a surprise!), but I saw firsthand how uncivilized a so-called "modern country" can become within a matter of days because of a lack of food.

If I had not witnessed this myself, I probably would not believe this could happen so easily.

And even as a strong young man, I found myself quite frightened at times before the trucks started rolling again.

That particular truckers' strike lasted three weeks — but it left me with a lasting impression.

The following are Items to Consider that I feel are prudent as you make your own preparations based on the problems that could potentially threaten our way of life.

Each of the items below could fill a book... but my intent is to at least get you thinking about the most important things related to being prepared.

1. Should I stay or should I go?

Many have already decided where they will go if and when any such disaster occurs. One of the questions I get more than any other regarding this topic is: Should I stay in the United States or leave to another country?

Personally, I know many who have already left the United States — and they have never looked back. I have been invited to their retreats in Costa Rica, Panama, Argentina, and the Caribbean Islands, and they seem very happy with their decision to leave.

This is a huge decision. My hope is that the following discussion may be of some help when thinking about this topic.

Because I travel internationally so much in my search for quality mining assets, I often compare notes on my trips with other folks (geologists, newsletter writers, etc.) about their travels...

One of the realizations you see firsthand as you travel extensively worldwide is the extreme wealth, extreme poverty, and extreme corruption that exists in all of its world flavors.

If you think the United States is corrupt, you should try going to Peru, or Bolivia, or Panama. And if you think those countries are corrupt, you haven’t see anything compared to Russia, Haiti, India, or some places in Africa...

The fact is corruption and the growing global police state is EVERYWHERE!

So while we certainly see much to complain about in the United States, which is definitely going the wrong way fast, from what I have seen in most other places on the planet, the U.S. is still less corrupt than most. There are bad apples everywhere throughout politics, local police, FBI agents, and most certainly the court system — but for every bad apple, there are probably three times as many honorable people who are truly just trying to do their jobs.

Leaving the country is a decision you must make before the event takes place due to the sheer amount of time and effort it takes to accomplish such a task.

You must also think about being away from family and friends who don’t share your enthusiasm to leave the country and what affect that could have on everyone over time.

For most, I think it’s probably best to just hunker down in your own country (U.S. or Canada) and prepare as much as you can. If you can afford a retreat cabin somewhere far away from the big cities, that would probably be best — but again, you still need to get there once the event occurs.

Studies have clearly shown that once a SHTF (Sh*t Hits The Fan) event occurs, you have two to three days to get to where you ultimately want to hunker down. After that, travel becomes extremely dangerous and it is unlikely you will reach your final destination.

Highways will become kill zones targeted by the bad guys. To a gang of armed looters who forgot to prepare or plan ahead before the event, there is not a better target than an RV loaded down with stored food, ammo, and gold.

Don’t be foolish and attempt travel once things have gone south: If you need to get somewhere, plan to leave the moment the event happens and arrive where you want to be within 72 hours.

This may require several false starts (meaning the situation looked bad at first, but didn’t materialize, and you need to return home) on your part as events start to unfold. But it's better to be safe than sorry if you are planning to get somewhere when an event happens.

Military strategists know from historical accounts of what happens when governments fail or when SHTF events affect a country: The rule of thumb is that roads are to be avoided at all costs.

If you cannot afford a retreat cabin of some sort, there are things you can do to hunker down in your own home...

First, you need to stock up and find a way to defend it. Like-minded friends and neighbors can be a huge support network — as long as they have prepared as well.

There is a great book (it's not well-edited, but has solid content) on how to live in your home and defend it called Holding Your Ground: Preparing for Defense if it All Falls Apart by Joe Nobody, which in itself is a lesson in laying low.

This book isn’t about turning your home into a concrete bunker armed to the teeth; it's more about using cosmetic deception to fool would-be marauders into thinking your place has already been hit. It includes plenty of clever techniques that go far beyond "shooting back."

Ultimately, everyone must decide for themselves based on finances, family concerns, and individual preferences what he can or cannot do in his preparations.

Hopefully, this discussion will help you make the best choices for what is in your best interest.

2. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

This is a good motto to live by, despite how you think about things.

Individuals can still hope for the best (that things can and will eventually work out), but what good is your prosperity going to do if you don’t have anything to eat or a safe place to hang out for an extended period of time?

Why not prepare while you still can — when things are readily available and can still be purchased at cheap prices? The coming hyper-inflation will make any such purchases beforehand look very intelligent...

To prepare for the worst, you need a plan. Why are most people so against doing basic preparations that could be the difference on how they survive — or whether they survive?

History shows time and again that those who prepare always fare better than those who did not. Having a plan and being determined to act on that plan will always be the best way to handle any contingencies, should they occur.

After disaster strikes, your mind is going to be racing around like a car on a race track. Pre-planning and having a written set of measures to take will make someone’s life go much smoother when the SHTF.

Your own personal plan is ONLY what best fits what you are going to do during and after a disaster.

People should also have back-up plans — Plans B and C, at least — because nothing ever seems to go as planned. Haphazard approaches to the aftermaths of catastrophes are kind of like a chicken running around without its head.

3. Prepare 72-hour "bug-out" bags.

This is an easy, cost-effective preparation that makes a ton of sense — no matter what happens. Even a small preparation like this can have an enormous impact on how you survive the first few days after any type of catastrophic event.

I’ll bet there were a lot of people after Hurricane Katrina that would have loved to have such a bag for each member of their family...

This could be a backpack or bag of some sort for each family member that contains all the items that individual may need during the first 72 hours after a disaster strikes.

Items to include in such a bag would be toiletries, important papers (see below), change of underwear and clothes, some bottled water, snacks, a few bags of freeze-dried food that only require two cups of hot water to reconstitute within self-contained bag, water purification device, metal cup and small pot for boiling water, backpacker mini-cook stove with fuel, sleeping bag, towel, ability to make fire, flashlight with extra batteries, glow sticks, ground cloth, tarp, rain gear, plastic forks, knives, spoons, parachute cord, personal cleaning wipes, a first aid kit and medication, good sharp knife and a multi-tool, fishing line, small fishing hooks, compass, cash, physical gold and silver, map of areas you may need, and any other items that would make sense for you.

Special items required by the elderly, babies, and pets need to be considered as well.

Important paperwork you should bring with you includes: birth certificates, insurance policies, passports, medical records, pet medical records, bank account information, deeds and titles to cars, homes etc., computer backup.

Gather these and put them in a suitable container and wrap in plastic against the elements.

Having such preparations after a tornado, hurricane, or any calamity would allow you to grab and go because it’s already prepared.

Each member of my family has such a bag. I keep each one of them in the basement of our house in a heavy-duty large trash bag for protection against the elements.

4. Understand what “just in time inventory” is — and how this can affect you.

Most Americans take for granted the intricate systems that make it possible for us to engage in seemingly mundane day-to-day tasks like filling up our gas tanks, loading up our shopping carts at the local grocery store, obtaining necessary medications, and even pouring ourselves a clean glass of water...

When we wake up each morning, we just expect that all of these things will work today the same way they worked yesterday.

What very few people have considered is the complexity involved in the underlying infrastructure that allows goods, services, and commerce in America to flow. Fewer still have ever spent the time to contemplate the fragility of these systems or the consequences on food, water, health care, the financial system, and the economy if they are interrupted.

The truth is our "just in time" inventory and delivery systems leave us incredibly vulnerable to a nationwide disaster.

You see, it is very expensive to hold and store inventory, so most manufacturers and retailers rely on a continual flow of deliveries that are scheduled to arrive "just in time," which significantly reduces their operating expenses.

This is considered to be good business practice for manufacturers and retailers, but it also means that if there was a major nationwide transportation disruption, our economic system would grind to a halt almost immediately.

Once store shelves are picked clean, they would not be able to be replenished until trucks could get back on the road. In the event of a major nationwide disaster, that could be quite awhile.

A report prepared for legislators and business leaders by the American Trucking Associations highlights just how critical our "just in time" inventory and delivery systems are, and assesses the impact on the general population in the event of an emergency or incident of national significance that disrupts the truck transportation systems responsible for carrying some ten billion tons of commodities and supplies across the United States each year.

A shutdown of truck operations as a result of elevated threat levels, terrorist attacks, or pandemics would, according to the report, have "a swift and devastating impact on the food, health care, transportation, waste removal, retail, manufacturing, and financial sectors."

So too would events such as an EMP attack or a coordinated cyber-attack that could shut down global positioning systems and the computers responsible for inventory control.

Another potential scenario that is more likely now than ever before is liquidity problems within the financial system stemming from currency crisis or hyperinflation...

All of our "just in time" delivery systems are built upon the unhindered transfer of money and credit, but when credit flow becomes restricted or money becomes worthless, no one will be able to pay for their goods. Likewise, no one will trust the credit worthiness of anyone else.

This is exactly the scenario playing out in Greece right now and the consequences on the health care industry in that country have left many without life saving drugs. When there’s no money, no one will be transporting anything.

The effects of a transportation shutdown for any reason would be immediate (in some cases, within hours) and absolutely catastrophic.

While an event that disrupts truck transportation systems may seem unlikely to many, recent history suggests it is fully plausible — and the blowback can be devastating...

A day after Hurricane Katrina ravaged New Orleans, panicked government officials stopped all transportation flow into the region, forcing hundreds of trucks loaded with emergency supplies like food and water to wait for permission before they could enter the area.

As a result, thousands of residents of the city were left without items essential for survival. It took days before truck routes were re-opened and supplies were allowed to flow.

Government officials acting on limited information, lack of knowledge, and personal politics were responsible for restricting the flow of goods into New Orleans, potentially killing hundreds of people in the process.

What this incident demonstrated is that when the trucks in America stop, all commerce and delivery stops with it.

5. Educate yourself on and take measures to store food.

There is plenty of material available on the Internet about the best ways to store food. I personally have read many books on the topic, and one of the most important features is trying to gather materials that have a long shelf life and which keep their nutritional value...

Most store-bought items have very short shelf lives and don’t work well for long-term food storage. Canned goods can work, but these must be stored in a cool, dry environment well below room temperature for increased shelf life (but not freezing). Costco and Sam's Club are best for these types of purchases.

Freeze-dried food can also work, but can be rather expensive — and the taste can sometimes be questionable. (There are many different manufacturers, and you need to educate yourself before purchasing. I like tasting the items first before making any major purchases.)

Better yet is to store staples such as wheat, rice, beans, sugar, oats, etc. — which, if stored properly, can last up to 30 years.

I look at my food storage as an investment, and I want it to have a long life. There are various methods of storing these staples, and each person should consider what method would work best for their circumstances.

In my own search for getting food storage together, I have come across some great resources that may be able to help you as well...

One company that has many of the products I ended up buying is Grandma's Country Foods located in Salt Lake City. They have a wide assortment of items related to preparedness and their pricing is excellent. The product they are most famous for is their powdered milk. I have tried at least a dozen different powdered milk products, and this is the only one my kids and I can actually drink.

They also have 45-pound containers of white or red winter wheat, which is ideal for long-term storage. You then, of course, have to have a way of grinding this wheat to make flour, but you get the idea...

Some other items that I have tried from Grandma's Country Foods that I really like are their canned real butter (long shelf life) and dehydrated foods, which taste better than others I've bought.

(Another good source for good tasting freeze-dried foods is Mountain House. An Internet search will give you multiple sources for obtaining Mountain House products.)

6. Obtain water and purify it.

In my search for "safe drinking water," I found what I consider the best available situation on the planet...

The Lifesaver water bottle uses the latest technology to provide clean, pure drinking water. I have spent a lot of time searching the best way to purifying water, and in my opinion, there's nothing better.

Also under the water category, it is wise to consider some form of water storage — whether it's five-gallon containers, 55-gallon plastic drums, or some other form of storage, all of which can be obtained from many different sources.

The bottom line in water preparedness is to always have a safe source(s) of clean drinking water and a way to store it.

To most this may sound absurd, since you can get clean drinking water from the tap in your home, but in times of emergency and/or civil unrest, the water may be shut off — or you may be displaced from your home and will need a way to access clean water.

This leads to the discussion of having a stocked-up safe haven place with two sources of water that is far away from a major city in case of a SHTF event.

This is one of the most rehashed subjects of survival, but probably the most important one.

Most people just assume the taps will continue to flow and water will be there.

People need to know that unless water is from a spring, it will likely need to be purified — and this means some reliable filters or boiling (which requires heat from a fire along with pots to boil it in).

Aside from drinking, water is also needed to rehydrate food, make milk from powder, and of course, for personal hygiene.

How much water will be needed and used is something that is often vastly underestimated.

Economic Collapse
7. Know how to protect yourself. This almost certainly means owning a firearm and knowing how to use it to protect yourself or others.

Many TV survival documentaries show people who feel they can defend themselves with knives or clubs, but in reality, they are going to lose 98% of the time against someone else with a firearm. Someone that has been specifically trained on how to use firearms in a defensive manner will almost always win the day in a gun battle.

You can’t just own a gun; you have to know how to use it at a very high level. You also need to know how to clean your weapons and take care of them. Access to a gunsmith may or may not be available to you during an emergency situation...

Some people think they cannot use a firearm against another person, but this feeling changes abruptly when they see one of their family members at risk. Some people still cannot use a firearm in any circumstance, and these people should consider some form of self-defense such as the non-lethal devices (stun batons, pepper sprays, TASERS, even baseball bats).

People can feel that everyone will come together and rebuild society, and many good people will — but there are plenty of bad people in this world. And it may come down to you or them.

Everyone needs to practice over and over with any self-defense armament they have so there is no hesitation when it comes to saving one’s life from someone that is willing to take yours or your loved ones'.

For a handgun, I recommend a 45-caliber for men and a 9MM for women. Most women find the kick of a 45-caliber handgun too much to handle when shooting and are more comfortable with a 9 MM. Colt, Smith and Wesson, H&K, Sig Sauer are some of the best name brands in handguns to consider if you don’t already own a handgun and need to purchase one.

A 45-caliber handgun has more stopping power than a 9 MM, but any well-placed shot with any type of gun can mean game over for an intruder or attacker with malintent.

Some other types of guns to consider are a good defensive shotgun (12 gauge) with large-size buckshot and a long-range rifle with a quality scope.

If you are not familiar with guns, it is best to find a friend who is who can help you through the process of buying handguns, shotguns, or rifles.

Once you have the guns you want, it then becomes necessary to know how to safely use those guns without hesitation if needed. If you are not familiar with the handling of guns I highly recommend you find someone that can properly train you in a safe environment.

I have sent my entire family to what I consider the best gun training that exists on planet earth for civilians. The name of the place is called Front Sight and is located an hour outside of Las Vegas, Nevada. More on them at www.frontsight.com.

If that is too far to travel, there are plenty of other training facilities around the country you can find with a local search on the Internet.

For those who live in Canada...

From what I understand, it is illegal to own handguns in Canada — but not hunting rifles.

I recommend getting familiar with the process of obtaining any kind of weapons the Canadian government will allow citizens to own for hunting purposes or self-defense.

Unfortunately, the "bad guys" always have illegal guns — even in Canada. So it is in your best interest to go through whatever permitting or paperwork hassles necessary to obtain legal weapons of any kind in your own country.

8. Have a way to cook food in case the power is off. A story below from someone who experienced an earthquake serves as a great reminder why we want to have the ability to cook our own food during a crisis...

dutch oven cookA few years ago, I remember people waiting in long food lines after the San Fernando earthquake hit California. Many of the people in the damage zone spent hours in breakfast lines, then long lines for lunch, then a repeat for dinner.

They had to spend many hours a day in food lines because either they had no food reserves or had no means of cooking their stored food.

A little preparation can go a long way in preparing for emergencies. Had these good people stored a little food, fuel, and invested in a good quality Dutch oven, they would be set for cooking in their backyard instead of relying on Federal troops to supply their family's nutrition.

Good quality Dutch ovens are fun to use, the food always tastes great, and they're invaluable in emergencies. They require charcoal to prepare your food.

Another option is a Volcano cook stove, which also uses charcoal — but saves two-thirds of the amount normally needed when cooking with Dutch ovens. Charcoal is safe and easy to store, eliminating the need to store dangerous liquid fuels for emergency cooking.

Most good Dutch oven cooks choose Kingsford brand charcoal because of the consistency of the product. If it takes 15 briquettes to cook a chicken once, it will likely take 15 the next time.

9. Understand the psychology of desperate people. This is a difficult one.

After a SHTF (Sh*t Hits The Fan) event, people will not behave normally. That neighbor who was in control during many minor emergencies may be the one pounding on your door with whacked-out eyes demanding what you have because they did not prepare for anything. Someone in your own survival group may just blank out in a zombie-like stare.

Unexpected times bring out the best and worst in people — and you need to prepare for this possibility.

You yourself could lose it. Again, preparing for this will help should it occur. You always hope that disasters will bring out the best in your fellow human beings, but often this is not the case.

10. Maintain proper hygiene. This is one of the top priorities within the armed forces because disease and sickness can and do take down the toughest of soldiers.

People must realize that after a terrible disaster, it is not like someone going camping, comes back dirty, and taking a nice long shower or a hot bath...

After a SHTF event the water to the faucets, as well the hot water heater, may not work. Bathing on at least a semi-regular basis is necessary to avoid all sorts of bacteria from building up on the skin and causing a variety of concerning ailments that will then have to be treated.

People should plan on how they will keep themselves clean — think sponge baths or using personal wipes as an option.

11. How to dispose of waste and proper sanitation. In third world countries and the pre-flush toilet era, one of the leading causes of illness and death was (and still is) improperly discarded waste. If the toilets won’t flush because there is no water to make them work, human waste is going to be a huge whopping problem for people trying to survive. Even improperly burying human excrement can lead to disease. Portable toilets, toilet paper, and disinfectant (bleach, for one) should be one of the top items in any survival kit.

Disposal of other trash is an issue that can bring hungry dangerous animals around drawn to the stench. Burning of trash is one method; plastic trash bags and the means to find some place to dump them is another alternative.

12. Learn to control pests and other vermin. This is a problem that led to about half of Europe dying several hundred years ago with the Black Death. Fleas and ticks carry some terrible diseases. Even people that stay inside their own homes will have to deal with this problem. People outside will have to contend with the fleas, ticks, flies, mosquitoes, mice, rats, and so on...

There are many repellents in nature that can help: citronella, even the smell of garlic will repel most vermin. Stocking up on insect and other commercial repellents is always an excellent idea. It only takes one bite to make a person deathly sick.

13. Understand radiation fallout and how to protect yourself. This is one of the least understood of the survival precautions taken. There are hundreds of nuclear power plants that could fail after the world as we know it goes down the tube. There are still tens of thousands of nuclear weapons available for war should countries decide to use them. Fallout is something that you might not even see... and until you are sick, you might not even know you have been contaminated. The purchase of a radiation detector that is protected against EMP is a wise idea. Understanding about radiation accumulation dosage (rad) and how to shield oneself from exposure is paramount.

14. Learn first aid. Treating yourself and/or others will probably be the only thing someone can do, as medical professionals are going to be few and far between. Many places offer free classes on first aid because they want people in the community to be prepared. A good first aid book along with a first aid kit is something every household should have before, during, and after a disaster.

Primitive conditions should be expected when anyone is helping someone after a catastrophe. A stockpile of antibiotics is always a good idea. Even acquiring the skill of making your own antibiotics can save lives as infection is something that will become an epidemic, especially with minor cuts and abrasions.

My family has gone as far as being trained to stitch up wounds. We decided as a family that we would learn this skill in case anyone we knew was in need. We have purchased the sterile suture kits and could stitch small to medium size wounds as good as any doctor at this point. We have been trained by medical professionals on a whole assortment of skills — from putting an IV in someone’s arm to treating major trauma. This also requires having the right supplies and equipment.

From my viewpoint, this is a skill set that is valuable in any circumstance — but particularly in SHTF events when medical personnel may not be available in a convenient time frame.

15. Learn about nutrition. Vitamin and mineral deficiencies are nothing to fool around with. Just consider what scurvy, the lack of Vitamin C, can do to someone...

Many survivalists and "preppers" make the critical mistake of only being concerned about calories to keep them going. Certain vitamins (A, B1-B12, C, D, E, K), minerals (Calcium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Magnesium, Manganese, Phosphorus, Potassium, Selenium, Zinc) and trace minerals are necessary to keep a body going.

Each person needs different amounts and any survival food supply should take this need as important as the food itself. Many survival foods have some of what your body needs, but sadly lack in others...

Vitamin and mineral supplements should be stocked with food if someone is unsure about what they are getting. Trace mineral drops are a liquid that can solve this problem, and are a good addition to any emergency supply.

16. How to start and maintain a fire. This is for everyone. Having a fire and keeping it going when you need it has been the essence of survival for thousands of years.

Fire cooks, heats water, keeps you warm, sterilizes items, and gives light. Having a lighter, matches, and a starter is one thing; but actually keeping the fire going is another...

Making sure the fire does not cause damage to your home or shelter is something not everyone thinks about. Burning of toxic wood or other material is something to remember as well.

While most everyone thinks that using a fire is rudimentary, there is much more to it. As a matter of fact, a church group recently tested some of their members and gave them matches to start a file. Most of the people had trouble starting a basic fire even though they had matches. This is a skill that you must acquire that allows you to consistently start a fire anywhere at any time. You should also learn to start a fire without matches. There are several books listed at the end of this report that can show you how this is done.

17. Learn how to grow food and/or find it. People’s supplies will only last so long, and eventually self-sufficiency will mean acquiring your own food — by either growing it or hunting for it.

Many people are into seed storing, and in many cases, growing your own food will feed the family. However, growing food has many drawbacks that people need to look at. Water is an issue in dry areas as irrigation is very man- or animal-power intensive.

One of the gravest things to contemplate is actually guarding your yield, as two-legged problems could be a bigger issue to your crops than some beetle infestation. Hungry people will see food growing and take it, 24 hours a day. No one can grow enough food to feed all those seeking food.

From a practical sense, it might be a better idea for some to go the hunter-gathering route. There are many good survival shows on television today that are very informative on surviving off the land.

Learning these skill sets can make a huge difference in any survival situation.

18. Last-minute items to secure from a grocery store. Hopefully you already have your long-term food storage and other preparations in place: canned goods, grains, rice, pasta, paper products, and freeze-dried foods that store well over time...

This should allow you to concentrate on these other items while most other people are trying to secure what you already have.

Once a SHTF event occurs, you may want to quickly go to the grocery store to secure these last-minute items before the shelves are empty. These are typically items that don’t store well for the long-term, but would be critical to own once a breakdown occurs.

Studies have shown these short-term storage items go first when a crisis happens. Most of these products have a shelf life of less than 18 months:
◾Bottled Water
◾Powdered Milk
◾Pancake mix (never use beyond shelf life, as this has been known to cause toxic shock)
◾Ramen Noodles
◾Popcorn
◾Cereal
◾Beef Jerky
◾Cooking Oils
◾Nuts
◾Dried Fruits
◾Power Bars
◾Juice Powders
◾Spices (salt, pepper, etc.)
◾Honey
◾Crackers
◾Baking Essentials (flour, sugar, baking soda, baking powder)
◾Coffee
◾Alcohol for medicinal purposes or for bartering
◾Hard Candies
◾Baby Food, Diapers, Wipes
◾Pet Food

These are just some suggestions that people need to address now — before trying to survive the aftermath of a horrible event.

People who prepare have to realize that when civilization stops functioning, so too does everything that most of us depend on.

There may never be a safety net there for us WHEN our stocked-up survival supplies run dry.

Much of survival is having supplies — as well as backups for when food, water, and other necessities cannot be found. The other part is being ready for everything our new situation could throw our way. For this, we all need to learn survival skills.

When someone thinks about their personal needs, an individual can probably add many more survival skills to the items we have talked about above. You want to become quite proficient in these skills before the SHTF so you and your family have a better chance of surviving.

Doomsday Prepper Shows

Lately I have been entertained by the recent “Doomsday Prepper” shows on television that portray the preparations of people who are concerned about various potentially life-threatening scenarios.

In most of these cases, while many have made some great preparations in some instances, they are woefully unprepared in other key circumstances...

In one case, there was a lady who was obviously very prepared with food, but wanted nothing to do with other important preparations such as protection. Here she is on national television telling the world where she is and all about her food preparations. She has absolutely no protection and won’t even consider it.

In my opinion, she clearly does not understand how many unwanted people are going to come for her food when a major crisis hits. Some of those people will probably not even think twice about killing her to obtain it.

If you have not yet watched any of these shows, they can give you some ideas for your own preparations.

Good Sources of Information or Books on these Topics

Strategic Relocation by Joel Skousen Swift | Learning Resources 1800 292-4746. This very informative book is a great guide in locating the safest places in North America. It takes into account many factors in evaluating why some places are better than others when trying to find the best safe havens closest to your current location.

Food Storage Guide by Survival Products, LLC | http://OnlineSupportSolutions.com. A very good guide for beginners on how to successfully build food storage.

Water Storage Guide by Survival Products, LLC | http://OnlineSupportSolutions.com. An informative guide on how to successfully store and treat water for safe drinking over the long term.

Survival Garden Guide by Survival Products, LLC | http://OnlineSupportSolutions.com. A comprehensive guide on how to start and maintain a survival garden.

Picking up the Pieces by Sorcha Faal and David Booth. This book is a practical guide for surviving economic crashes, internal unrest, and military suppression. The authors have experienced war, tyranny, and extremely dangerous situations, and live to tell about them in this book. They have compiled some great information that offers readers knowledge and insight into the best ways to prepare and survive:

How do you function in an underground economy?
What are the advantages of having multiple sets of identification papers for yourself and your family BEFORE the onset of events happens?

The Complete Worst Case Scenario Survival Handbook by Joshua Piven and David Borgenicht. The most essential scenarios from all eleven Worst Case Survival Handbooks are collected in this sturdy reference volume: a guide on how to survive all kinds of unusual circumstances.

The Complete Worst Case Scenario Survival Handbook – Man Skills. Being prepared is the key to mastering any situation, and this book offers over 500 pages of the most essential survival scenarios from the entire Worst Case Survival Handbook series.

Special Forces Survival Guide by Chris McNab. The book encompasses wilderness survival skills from the world’s most elite military units.

The Survivors Club by Ben Sherwood. This New York Times Bestseller offers readers the secrets of the world’s most successful survivors.

What do they know that you don’t? Each second of every day, one of us faces a crisis, whether it’s a car accident, violent crime, serious illness, or financial trouble... Who beats the odds and who surrenders? And how can we become the kind of people who survive and thrive?

Ominous Parallels by Leonard Peikoff with introduction by Ayn Rand. A brilliant study on America today and the “ominous parallels” with the chaos of pre-Hitler Germany. In this book, you'll learn why America has been detoured from its original path and led down the same road that Germany followed to Nazism.

Patriots, Surviving the Coming Collapse by James Wesley Rawles. U.S. Army Intelligence Officer James Wesley Rawles has written an intensely powerful novel that is more like a survival manual dressed in fiction. In his book, Rawles doesn’t just tell you what could happen; he explains exactly how to prepare for it. This book is a real page-turner because it is so grounded in what could happen.

Summary

I hope this discussion on being prepared has been of some value to you, no matter how you feel about the potential for problems in our future.

For me, it has become a way of life — as my beliefs are very strong that a catastrophic financial derivative event is looming in our near future.

Since our junior mining shares are suffering at the moment, I thought the timing would be good to focus on the topic of preparedness while we await the next run to higher ground...

When you start to see bank runs and long lines at the banks as we are seeing in multiple countries in Europe right now, this is a sign the endgame is near.

A recent article by a major fund manager from London who previously sold derivatives to Europe while working for Goldman Suks stated his opinion that the endgame for the derivatives is end of this year or early next year.

No matter how you slice it, things worldwide are getting very strange very quickly.

The time to prepare was yesterday, but you still have time to get whatever preparations you can in place while prices remain reasonable and availability exists. This can all change quite suddenly, however, as I hope I have amply demonstrated this week in my articles.

I end with a quote from one of my favorite authors, Ayn Rand: “Man's mind is his basic tool of survival.”




Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 21:47:44


Post by: loki old fart


Most people will be in denial. about this. But I have noticed a lot of people (preppers )? I think you Americans call them.
Seem to be arming for war, or at least civil unrest. But most appear not to have a long term plan other than running off to the woods Is this an American thing?.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 22:04:54


Post by: Jihadin


Well I take it as it comes. Though the idea of "prepping" is a good idea. One never knows when the government can get into the area and provide the basics. I prefer not to wait and get into a situation that could be detrimental. Granted I'm not "100%" a Prepper but I say I'm in the fringe group

IMO those who are in denial takes everything for granted and consider themselves "privilege" and expects everything that is due to them regardless. It'll be interesting times if we get into a bind of that nature and I "need" to provide for them.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 22:09:48


Post by: Relapse


It's a good idea to put in as much food storage as you can. This is not only in preparation for possible disaster, but against losing a job. I know people that lost work who survived off their food storage until they got more work.
It's a lot easier to get up to a years supply set aside than most people think. The trick is to buy an extra case of beans, corn, meat or whatever with a weekly or bi weekly trip to the store and rotate the cans, or bags with your regular consumption to keep the stock fresh.
There are more than enough places that set out dehydrated food and vitamins to keep you going and making hygene kits is remarkably simple.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 22:13:10


Post by: Forar


 Jihadin wrote:
Long READ


Oh I doubt it's that long.

*pops the spoiler*

....

O.O

That aside, the idea of preparing for any kind of catastrophe is a good idea, within ones means. Build up a little food, some bottled water, and other survival tools and gear, just in case. It doesn't need to be a 'economic collapse', it could be flooding, or unprecedented snowfall, or a meteor strike, or civil unrest, or any number of natural or man made disasters that could require a few days or even weeks to clear up and get help to those affected. Even if it's just a few days of supplies for the household, that could be so many more days before massive problems need attending to.

It doesn't need to be a summer blockbuster action movie in order to need to be able to survive without outside help for a few days, nor does it need to be the utter and total collapse of human civilization in order to make sure that a person and their family are reasonably well prepared to weather the storm, be it literal or figurative.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 22:15:37


Post by: loki old fart


I do not consider myself a survivalist, by any means, At least not at 57 I don't. But I have a motor-caravan, stocked with fishing gear, and tools etc. A laptop with how to information on it.
The ability to build an aquaponics setup, a wind mill, and know how to make fuel(diesel, petrol, LPG). We have horses on the farm, and chickens. The sea is a hundred yards away. Food and heat won't be a problem.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 22:17:32


Post by: djones520


Here it comes...

All preparations of such are worthless without a means to defend yourself.

In the event of the worse case situation, the people who did not prepare will come for what you have, and unless you have a way of making that not happen... well you and yours are up gak creek.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 22:18:36


Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha


all ready prepared, we have our outfits picked out and everything...bring on the Apocy-lypse!



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 22:21:35


Post by: loki old fart


 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
all ready prepared, we have our outfits picked out and everything...bring on the Apocy-lypse!



I see it as more mad max 1, not 2 or 3


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 23:37:36


Post by: Jihadin


What got me was the earth quake in Cali where people waited in line for hours just for a meal. Since quite a few of us have ate similar food provided by the government its not worth the damn wait for a plate of food. The tip on the stove in the article I'm going to have to say is a damn good one. As for fresh meat half my neighbors are quite the out doorsy type and one's a Park Ranger to boot. Figure at this point in time I can depend on my neighbors to keep it together


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 23:45:29


Post by: loki old fart


Well the reason my van/rv has all my fishing gear in it is because that was my main reason for buying it, to go fishing in.
And the windmill because the power lines run through a wooded area, if the power goes out the water pump won't work.
And we get paid for having it.


http://www.evancewind.com/how-to-buy/finance-packages

Lease land for free electricity

Landowners in England, Scotland and Wales can obtain free electricity by leasing land for the installation of a R9000 small wind turbine.

Under this finance package, a R9000 wind turbine is installed free of charge in exchange for a lease. In return the landowner can use as much of the generated electricity as required, free of charge, and the investor receives the income generated from the Feed-in Tariffs.

To benefit from this free electricity the proposed location for a turbine needs to be suitable, that is, open and with an average annual wind speed of greater than 6 m/s.

Once a site is accepted the process is hassle free for the landowner as a site survey, planning applications and installation are all managed by the investor - who retain ownership of the equipment so cover costs of maintenance and insurance.
Summary

Financial - No capital expenditure and no ongoing costs

Free electricity - Reduce your costs and reduce the impact of future rises in energy prices

No risk - Cost of maintenance is all covered

No hassle - Site survey to planning permission and installation is all managed

Reduced CO2 - Reduce your own and the country’s carbon footprint


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 23:52:05


Post by: Relapse


I don't think I'd be cooking much, if any, unless I absolutely had to in a crisis since I wouldn't want the scent to draw looters down on top of me.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/02 23:57:57


Post by: Grey Templar


Our sense of smell isn't good enough to worry about the scent drawing in baddies. Its the smoke that would be worrisome, and then it is possible to build a fire the right way that doesn't make too much smoke.

Of course its only a question of if, not when, you'll need to defend yourself in this kind of situation. Risking eating raw food, that must be cooked, isn't worth it.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 00:16:40


Post by: Super Ready


What I'm about to say applies to truly drastic situations. Maybe a bit over the top, but when a lot of people think about this the thoughts cross their minds of apocalyptic situations, nuclear war, widespread biological or chemical war, global natural disaster, maybe even zombie outbreaks.
True survivability will not come from preparation (which admittedly may help but only short-term), but adaptation. As was said before, it's no good you doing all the prep work and building resources if someone naturally resourceful in and of themselves finds a way to yoink it from you.

To make other examples - what's the use in stockpiling food if the problem is something that will spoil said food - biological weaponry, for instance? How would anything in your home help if for one of many reasons, you had to immediately evacuate and never return? What good would savings do if the world suffers massive communications breakdown, or in another case, where money itself becomes next to worthless? (That last one actually happened in the Great Depression at the start of the 20th century, before you poo-poo it...)

Making plans isn't a bad idea but ultimately, I would question the sanity of those so worked up that loads of their time and money get poured into these plans. If you're just taking to putting by a bit more food and water than you did before - if you're starting a savings account for a rainy day - go for it. If you're paying thousands of pounds to build yourself a shelter... well, at least someone else has a shot at actually putting your money to good use.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 00:46:31


Post by: rubiksnoob


Sorry, but life's too short to be that paranoid. It's also too short to read walls of text.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 01:03:30


Post by: KingCracker


The wife and I store food when we can, and I learn ways to survive and such as much as I can. Is say even now, the day before our grocery day, if we HAD to survive on what we have right now, my family of 4 would eat off our decently for several months. I'm not to worried about water because I know a way to rig our well to pump clean water with no power. It'd take a little time, but water would be ok. Meat though, that could take some doing as where I live is a subdivision.

But I think if it got to bad, we would move to my brothers house in the sticks.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 01:26:38


Post by: Spacemanvic


I live in The Sticks, part of the plan is keeping the city scavengers at bay. There is only so much game to go around.

P.S. We are very well trained in the use of arms, some by Uncle Sugar


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 02:04:15


Post by: cincydooley


So.... I an apocalypse happens I'm just going to use my guns to take food from those I know don't have guns. That's the easy solution right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or, you know, use them to hunt like they're Already useful for.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 02:05:34


Post by: sebster


Relapse wrote:
It's a good idea to put in as much food storage as you can. This is not only in preparation for possible disaster, but against losing a job. I know people that lost work who survived off their food storage until they got more work.


How is that better than saving that money, and using it to buy food during that year of unemployment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 loki old fart wrote:
I see it as more mad max 1, not 2 or 3


Mad Max 1 isn't an apocalyptic film. Australian country towns just look like that


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 02:06:58


Post by: Relapse


 sebster wrote:
Relapse wrote:
It's a good idea to put in as much food storage as you can. This is not only in preparation for possible disaster, but against losing a job. I know people that lost work who survived off their food storage until they got more work.


How is that better than saving that money, and using it to buy food during that year of unemployment?


Prices go up and these people ended up having more food for their money.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 02:15:27


Post by: PrehistoricUFO


This is why I like being well-developed physically. If all else goes to gak, and society melts down, I'll be more than capable of protecting myself and when it comes down to it - taking what I need from others. In the end, the strong will survive. The well-armed, too.

I only say those things because man is man's greatest threat during these strife scenarios. I'm ready to buck when the mercury rises.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 02:24:58


Post by: Relapse


 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm about to say applies to truly drastic situations. Maybe a bit over the top, but when a lot of people think about this the thoughts cross their minds of apocalyptic situations, nuclear war, widespread biological or chemical war, global natural disaster, maybe even zombie outbreaks.
True survivability will not come from preparation (which admittedly may help but only short-term), but adaptation. As was said before, it's no good you doing all the prep work and building resources if someone naturally resourceful in and of themselves finds a way to yoink it from you.

To make other examples - what's the use in stockpiling food if the problem is something that will spoil said food - biological weaponry, for instance? How would anything in your home help if for one of many reasons, you had to immediately evacuate and never return? What good would savings do if the world suffers massive communications breakdown, or in another case, where money itself becomes next to worthless? (That last one actually happened in the Great Depression at the start of the 20th century, before you poo-poo it...)

Making plans isn't a bad idea but ultimately, I would question the sanity of those so worked up that loads of their time and money get poured into these plans. If you're just taking to putting by a bit more food and water than you did before - if you're starting a savings account for a rainy day - go for it. If you're paying thousands of pounds to build yourself a shelter... well, at least someone else has a shot at actually putting your money to good use.


If the sealed food is spoiled by biological weapndry, chances are the owners would be already dead. If the biological attack happened elsewhere, it could very well disrupt food deliveries with those prepared being able to fend for themselves until supply lines wete reestablished. If there was rampant sickness, again those who could stay isolated due to adequate food stores would be at an advantage.
Things like the LA riots, flood in New Orleans and Japanese earthquakes, among similar disasters show how it is to people's advantage to have some kind of backup storage. True, you can be flooded out, have your house burn, etc., but if everyone had storage, there wouldn't be the desperation waiting on government to come to the rescue. Everyone could just help each other out in times of need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
This is why I like being well-developed physically. If all else goes to gak, and society melts down, I'll be more than capable of protecting myself and when it comes down to it - taking what I need from others. In the end, the strong will survive. The well-armed, too.

I only say those things because man is man's greatest threat during these strife scenarios. I'm ready to buck when the mercury rises.


The odds are you would get popped in your raiding because most people that prepare for disaster store weapons, also. Alternatively, you could easily run afoul of other raiders wanting your weapons during your travels.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:04:09


Post by: PrehistoricUFO



The odds are you would get popped in your raiding because most people that prepare for disaster store weapons, also. Alternatively, you could easily run afoul of other raiders wanting your weapons during your travels.


Indeed, a risk we would all have to take at some point I'd say.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:25:39


Post by: Relapse


 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

The odds are you would get popped in your raiding because most people that prepare for disaster store weapons, also. Alternatively, you could easily run afoul of other raiders wanting your weapons during your travels.


Indeed, a risk we would all have to take at some point I'd say.


People that are able to castle up or band with others that have prepared have a far better chance than people who are forced to wander half starved and preying on each other.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:35:28


Post by: Grimskul


The best way to prepare and survive any type of catastrophe is to have copious amounts of quilted toilet paper and bags upon bags of prunes. Prunes give you the digestive fibre needed to survive the diarrhea infested brown spots of the wasteland while the toilet paper not only acts as a way of marking territory with your plentiful poop but also as a useful tool for strangling when wet as well as fashionable arm and headwear in a pinch. After all just because society has gone to hell doesn't mean one can't maintain civility and a measure of class.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:38:22


Post by: Hordini


Relapse wrote:
 sebster wrote:
Relapse wrote:
It's a good idea to put in as much food storage as you can. This is not only in preparation for possible disaster, but against losing a job. I know people that lost work who survived off their food storage until they got more work.


How is that better than saving that money, and using it to buy food during that year of unemployment?


Prices go up and these people ended up having more food for their money.



In addition, having a store of food is useful in situations besides unemployment, like flooding, blizzards, hurricanes, long power outages, and other things that actually happen to people every year.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:41:44


Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha


 Grimskul wrote:
The best way to prepare and survive any type of catastrophe is to have copious amounts of quilted toilet paper and bags upon bags of prunes. Prunes give you the digestive fibre needed to survive the diarrhea infested brown spots of the wasteland while the toilet paper not only acts as a way of marking territory with your plentiful poop but also as a useful tool for strangling when wet as well as fashionable arm and headwear in a pinch. After all just because society has gone to hell doesn't mean one can't maintain civility and a measure of class.


You sir can join our mohawked warriors of the wasteland...and bring your toilet paper...that stuff is like money!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:47:03


Post by: Spacemanvic


 Grimskul wrote:
The best way to prepare and survive any type of catastrophe is to have copious amounts of quilted toilet paper and bags upon bags of prunes. Prunes give you the digestive fibre needed to survive the diarrhea infested brown spots of the wasteland while the toilet paper not only acts as a way of marking territory with your plentiful poop but also as a useful tool for strangling when wet as well as fashionable arm and headwear in a pinch. After all just because society has gone to hell doesn't mean one can't maintain civility and a measure of class.


Got it!

If we follow the trail of purple poop, we'll find a constipated Canuck wandering the wastelands dressed like a fuzzy mummy in search of maple syrup....
Either that or a Ripper Swarm.....



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:53:03


Post by: hotsauceman1


Me and my family have gas stoves with several propane tanks to cook our food. I a pinch we can eat most of the canfood, even the slightly expired. We also have a small dog and several kids for food.
So i think we are good


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 03:57:13


Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha


We have huge amounts of MRe crates, but..I think I will go full cannibal before having to eat that stuff again...besides as long as we have Grimskul and his copious supplies of tolietpaper, we will be fine from the explosive diarrhea you get from too much human stew.....


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 04:06:15


Post by: Jihadin


I do agree though with the 72 hours you have to get where ever the Hell your going. That's when its going to sink in the law and order of things is not going to be enforced and the danger of running the risk of traveling past that time frame


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 04:40:13


Post by: Grimskul


 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
We have huge amounts of MRe crates, but..I think I will go full cannibal before having to eat that stuff again...besides as long as we have Grimskul and his copious supplies of tolietpaper, we will be fine from the explosive diarrhea you get from too much human stew.....


Indeed mein excretion-minded comrade! I will ensure the supply lines of toilet-paper are maintained and are made with the utmost quality. Heck if I can reclaim certain manufacturing areas I could become a "Roll Runner" (reference to Gun Runners in Fallout) and establish it as a new form of currency! One square equals two apples and entire roll is worth a full gallon of fuel!

I swear by the finely maintained rectums of my forefathers that I will save the wasteland from its digestive throes; one pair of buttocks at a time!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 04:42:49


Post by: Breotan


 loki old fart wrote:
Lease land for free electricity

Landowners in England, Scotland and Wales can obtain free electricity by leasing land for the installation of a R9000 small wind turbine.

Under this finance package, a R9000 wind turbine is installed free of charge in exchange for a lease. In return the landowner can use as much of the generated electricity as required, free of charge, and the investor receives the income generated from the Feed-in Tariffs.

To benefit from this free electricity the proposed location for a turbine needs to be suitable, that is, open and with an average annual wind speed of greater than 6 m/s.

Once a site is accepted the process is hassle free for the landowner as a site survey, planning applications and installation are all managed by the investor - who retain ownership of the equipment so cover costs of maintenance and insurance.
We have something similar in the US. The main difference is that there is no lease. You obtain a legal means of generating electricity and what you don't use goes to the grid and you get paid for it at the same rate you'd be charged if you were using it from the grid.



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 04:44:27


Post by: Grimskul


 Spacemanvic wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
The best way to prepare and survive any type of catastrophe is to have copious amounts of quilted toilet paper and bags upon bags of prunes. Prunes give you the digestive fibre needed to survive the diarrhea infested brown spots of the wasteland while the toilet paper not only acts as a way of marking territory with your plentiful poop but also as a useful tool for strangling when wet as well as fashionable arm and headwear in a pinch. After all just because society has gone to hell doesn't mean one can't maintain civility and a measure of class.


Got it!

If we follow the trail of purple poop, we'll find a constipated Canuck wandering the wastelands dressed like a fuzzy mummy in search of maple syrup....
Either that or a Ripper Swarm.....



Constipated? Far from it! The prunes will keep me strong like well-oiled power armour with my bottom fresh and lively thanks to clean wipings and thorough...bowel movements. Also the toilet paper will be pivotal in soaking in maple syrup as a new energy source as civilization falls into disrepair and new forms of power are needed. I can imagine it now, with my toilet factories running on wonderful bounties of maple syrup.

Join us brother, for the Roll Runners beckon!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 05:06:32


Post by: Piston Honda


Hopefully I can put on my best Tyrion Lannister smooth talk and get a friend who can kick some ass to get out of trouble.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 05:34:13


Post by: Jihadin


Well. I'm a firm believer of not starting crap. Though if someone starts crap with me then they're like two feet away from me ruining their day that is if a trade goes bad and he/she gets greedy.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 05:53:51


Post by: sebster


Relapse wrote:
Prices go up and these people ended up having more food for their money.


Yeah, that works as a precaution against disaster. But you said it was also to protect against the loss of a job - in that case money in the bank is the same as food stored away (except that food stored away can only be eaten, money can be used to cover any expense that comes up during that year).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hordini wrote:
In addition, having a store of food is useful in situations besides unemployment, like flooding, blizzards, hurricanes, long power outages, and other things that actually happen to people every year.


Talking about sensible precautions for things that actually happen takes all the fun out of an apocalypse thread.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 06:02:33


Post by: motyak


I'll just roll around in nuclear radiation until I grow wings and armoured skin. Because that's how it works right? I'll be safe then!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 06:09:23


Post by: cincydooley


 motyak wrote:
I'll just roll around in nuclear radiation until I grow wings and armoured skin. Because that's how it works right? I'll be safe then!


An extra set of arms could be useful too.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 06:13:18


Post by: motyak


 cincydooley wrote:
 motyak wrote:
I'll just roll around in nuclear radiation until I grow wings and armoured skin. Because that's how it works right? I'll be safe then!


An extra set of arms could be useful too.


Well obviously my wings will have graspy hands at the tips, all the better to grab small rodents off the plains with. And if I really need more lift I can just flap the hands really hard.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 07:04:21


Post by: Jihadin


Was that fap or flap you typed?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 07:16:30


Post by: PrehistoricUFO


Relapse wrote:
 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

The odds are you would get popped in your raiding because most people that prepare for disaster store weapons, also. Alternatively, you could easily run afoul of other raiders wanting your weapons during your travels.


Indeed, a risk we would all have to take at some point I'd say.


People that are able to castle up or band with others that have prepared have a far better chance than people who are forced to wander half starved and preying on each other.


You're saying this as if I've specifically stated I'd be the one half-starved and unprepared. Consider that if we are speaking about an extended doomsday scenario, no average person (you, myself, and pretty much 99% of the others in this thread) is going to have a setup for long-term survival - years, even decades of independence in a world of anarchy and collapse. At some point, we would all have to scavenge to survive.

Believe me, I'd be prepared and castled up with friends. We would have guns and supplies, like many others. Eventually though, we would face a shortage and have no choice but to find more. Just like you and everyone else in this thread - don't deny it to try and sound like some super-genius who has a floating fortress with greenhouses and moisture vaporators. *rolls eyes*


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 10:15:35


Post by: loki old fart


 Breotan wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lease land for free electricity

Landowners in England, Scotland and Wales can obtain free electricity by leasing land for the installation of a R9000 small wind turbine.

Under this finance package, a R9000 wind turbine is installed free of charge in exchange for a lease. In return the landowner can use as much of the generated electricity as required, free of charge, and the investor receives the income generated from the Feed-in Tariffs.

To benefit from this free electricity the proposed location for a turbine needs to be suitable, that is, open and with an average annual wind speed of greater than 6 m/s.

Once a site is accepted the process is hassle free for the landowner as a site survey, planning applications and installation are all managed by the investor - who retain ownership of the equipment so cover costs of maintenance and insurance.
We have something similar in the US. The main difference is that there is no lease. You obtain a legal means of generating electricity and what you don't use goes to the grid and you get paid for it at the same rate you'd be charged if you were using it from the grid.


They do the planning applications, build the tower and install the windmill.
They do any maintenance, insure against damage.
They get the feed in tariff.

You get free electricity.

If the government stops paying the tariff or an economic melt down happens, they lose. as long as the wind blows you've got free electricity.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 10:49:55


Post by: Soladrin


Yeaah... not going to waste time preparing for something that.. I don't even know what I would prepare for.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 10:54:41


Post by: loki old fart


Here's one it action.


This will keep the water pumping, and the freezers running.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 10:56:10


Post by: Dark Apostle 666


Grimskul, your plan intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter...


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 11:17:51


Post by: fishy bob


Why I kill people today. There'll be less post-apocalyptic crazees to deal with tomorrow.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 11:32:42


Post by: Leigen_Zero


As for my preparations?

Well I just plan to die along with the rest of the unprepared masses...

I think the main issue with the whole 'survival' thing is everyone attaches this cinematic notion to it, like 'aw man the end of the world would be just like fallout, I'll go round killing zombies with my home-made flaming sword that I built out of a lawnmover and a motorcycle in order to scavenge canned food in retro-style packaging!'. While the reality would be that everything, and possibly everyone, you know is going to be obliterated in front of you, or is going to slowly crumble in front of your very eyes.

Death, or ekeing out a miserable pitiful existence amidst the ruins of our former society, having to defend myself from not only the disaster that wrought our downfall, but also from other increasingly desperate and feral survivors. To be honest the former is sounding the better deal...


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 11:49:38


Post by: Frazzled


I'm not concerned. The wiener legions will raid the Randalls warehouses for munchies and retire to the Missions near San Antonio to wait for the fun to begin. Then once the zombies appear, the Zombie Games can start, and its Clobbering Time!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 12:19:41


Post by: Relapse


 sebster wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Prices go up and these people ended up having more food for their money.


Yeah, that works as a precaution against disaster. But you said it was also to protect against the loss of a job - in that case money in the bank is the same as food stored away (except that food stored away can only be eaten, money can be used to cover any expense that comes up during that year).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hordini wrote:
In addition, having a store of food is useful in situations besides unemployment, like flooding, blizzards, hurricanes, long power outages, and other things that actually happen to people every year.


Talking about sensible precautions for things that actually happen takes all the fun out of an apocalypse thread.



People always have to eat, whether they work or not. For the people I know that have gone through job loss, this was better than money in the bank, although they did have savings also. The theme that kept coming back with them was that they were glad they had food storage or it would have been hard to have fed their families.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 12:31:33


Post by: notprop


loki old fart wrote:Here's one it action.


This will keep the water pumping, and the freezers running.


Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Grimskul, your plan intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter...


I got that newsletter and this is what Loki sold me....




My disaster plan is simple. Find out where Loki lives. Take Lokis stuff, but not one of those damn exploding windmills he has. They're too explody for me.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 13:59:47


Post by: gorgon


My perspective is that the survivalists of the '80s kinda split into two camps -- the "militia" types, and the "preppers."

I've watched a few of those preppers shows. They seem to follow the same pattern. The family in question starts off seeming rational enough...just being prudent...preparing just in case, etc. Then they talk about what they're prepping for and suddenly it's like THERE'S THE CRAZY!

If most of their scenarios came to pass, I'm not sure how much some canned goods and a bunker would really net them. I'd rather save thousands of dollars now and live a happier, less fearful life than trade it in for maybe an extra week or two of life in an world-ending scenario.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 14:07:25


Post by: Frazzled


Well,

In the Before Time, when it rained in Texas, having a month’s worth of dry good food and other hurricane supplies was just prudence. I can see having about three months of supplies for a temporary natural disaster or Spanish Flu situation, but not much more.

Mind you Frazzled believes that the best defense is a good offense and intends to set up his own mini empire comprising all of Central Texas (to be renamed Dachshundreich) as soon as the sirens start, so your mileage may vary…


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 14:59:54


Post by: notprop


As soon as the sirens start those damn effeminate dogs are gonna eat your wrinkly arse (and maybe the rest of you?).

The badgers however will remain loyal with smorgasbord of stray cats/cat owners available to them knowing full well if the end is near we just have to sit it out for a few hours while King Arthur/Zombie Churchill get gak done. Then its Cricket and Crumpets for tea, HUZZAH!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 15:13:26


Post by: Frazzled


I'm afraid lists have already been drawn up. Badgers will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 15:43:45


Post by: loki old fart


 gorgon wrote:
My perspective is that the survivalists of the '80s kinda split into two camps -- the "militia" types, and the "preppers."

I've watched a few of those preppers shows. They seem to follow the same pattern. The family in question starts off seeming rational enough...just being prudent...preparing just in case, etc. Then they talk about what they're prepping for and suddenly it's like THERE'S THE CRAZY!

If most of their scenarios came to pass, I'm not sure how much some canned goods and a bunker would really net them. I'd rather save thousands of dollars now and live a happier, less fearful life than trade it in for maybe an extra week or two of life in an world-ending scenario.


I tend to agree with the first part of your post. Whats the point of leaving a nice warm central heated house, for a cabin in the woods, with a wood stove, no tv and what food you could carry. That's why the wind mill is so important. power tools, water pump, tv, lights ETC.
Things we take for granted. Food how much can you realistically carry. Water how much have you got and can you find more?.
What happens when it runs out. Scavenging viable maybe, but worth the risk? Looters get shot.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 16:12:22


Post by: Leigen_Zero


 gorgon wrote:

If most of their scenarios came to pass, I'm not sure how much some canned goods and a bunker would really net them. I'd rather save thousands of dollars now and live a happier, less fearful life than trade it in for maybe an extra week or two of life in an world-ending scenario.


Diddly-squat in the long term...

Mainly as about 90% of them are thinking only in terms of their immediate family,assuming they survive the first couple of months in thier cargo container bunker out in the backwoods, living off tinned peaches, then are able to create a self-sustaining existence by subsistence farming/hunting & gathering, your average doomsday-prepped family of four will be dead in about 70 years, unless they don't mind the family tree being a little bit bonsai

Surviving an apocalypse with the intent of preserving the species is all well and good, but if you're the only specimen for miles around, well good luck with that...


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 16:20:07


Post by: Polonius


I think preparing for a few days without food, water, heat, and electricity is wise. As has been noted, a lot can disrupt the logistics of a modern urban area. A few gallons of water, some canned/dried food, and a plan can help.

As for the utter collapse of civilization? My plan, without irony, is to die quickly. I'm literally a bureacrat, with no real skills. I'm out of shape, obese, and I have allergies and flat feet. There's no way I make it outside of civilization.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 16:34:08


Post by: notprop


Good for you Polonius, I hope you find the rapid death you are looking for.

............Wait that's not nice?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 16:42:57


Post by: loki old fart


 Polonius wrote:
I think preparing for a few days without food, water, heat, and electricity is wise. As has been noted, a lot can disrupt the logistics of a modern urban area. A few gallons of water, some canned/dried food, and a plan can help.

As for the utter collapse of civilization? My plan, without irony, is to die quickly. I'm literally a bureacrat, with no real skills. I'm out of shape, obese, and I have allergies and flat feet. There's no way I make it outside of civilization.


If things turn bad, hobbies can be more important than jobs.
Shooting, fishing, gardening, fish keeping all hobbies.




Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 20:39:45


Post by: easysauce


one thing I really tend to notice with all you "prepper" types is the over abundance of "stuff" being bought, and the lack of real world skills...


Im not a prepper or doomer by any means, people just think I am because I went through scouts, can hunt/fish/survive in the wild, alone and with minimal gear, and always have a month or two of water/food/essentials at home...

stuff that everyone in my grand pappys generation always did.

to me thats just common sense... half a dozen times the water was super handy when a pipe froze, or work had to be done and there was no H20 in the taps.

that being said, never count on stores that are more then you can carry, there is always going to be someone or some group, or some natural disaster, that is able to push you out of your hidy hole.

training, and the ability to adapt/make do with what you can personally carry is going to be a better plan then storing endless amounts of stuff.

again, I am about 0.000000001% worried about anything, but realistically, I think most preppers put too much faith in their gear, and dont spend enough time actually out in the wild, or practicing the skills.

mostly they are actually quite bonkers... letting their paranoia envelpoe their entire, so far disaster free, lives, which is a disaster in of itself IMO.

I think we need more survival like the show "naked and afraid", where the people on it are actually relying on their brains to stay alive, and it paints a pretty accurate picture of how even the tiny sub 100ilbs girls will out perform the 6'8" ex spec ops marine in a survival role, because she actually knows how to survive without kit, while he only has army training (very kit dependant IMO)

really good show, highly reccomended for entertainment and educational value.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 20:51:55


Post by: gorgon


Honestly, many Americans are raised thinking they can spend their way out of problems.



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 20:57:04


Post by: Frazzled



I think we need more survival like the show "naked and afraid"


This sounds like the title to about ten million evil man chick flick movies, and one good one.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 21:08:10


Post by: Piston Honda


 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, many Americans are raised thinking they can spend their way out of problems.



That's my plan if I can steal my parents' gas lands.

I'm not what you call a fighter. I'm don't stock food with other than a several day supply after learning my lesson from a flood.

I do know how to hunt (not a good one though), fish, skin animals, great at growing food and I am very knowledgeable with wood working tools. I have skills in exchange for food, safety and a minimum of 9 hours of sleep on a nice bed.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 21:13:47


Post by: Frazzled


I can mix rum and water in almost any container!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 21:17:32


Post by: pities2004


Well if we do have a collapse I will make a killing on tin foil hats.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 21:24:42


Post by: Piston Honda


Some stock up on charmin ultra soft toilet paper.

You will be a hero in the new era.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 21:27:07


Post by: whembly


 Piston Honda wrote:
Some stock up on charmin ultra soft toilet paper.

You will be a hero in the new era.

Yup...

I know the swear filter will kick in... but, we call them "gak tickets".


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 21:29:50


Post by: loki old fart


 whembly wrote:
 Piston Honda wrote:
Some stock up on charmin ultra soft toilet paper.

You will be a hero in the new era.

Yup...

I know the swear filter will kick in... but, we call them "gak tickets".

People won't want toilet paper. Paper bills will suffice, the ones with heads on

added video about prepping



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/03 22:35:07


Post by: Piston Honda


Nope, I want charmin ultra soft toilet paper.

I like the feeling as though I am wiping myself with soft clouds from heaven.

It's almost as if it were a drug when you compare it to that sand paper stuff.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 00:56:49


Post by: Jihadin


Stick with baby wipes. That way you can clean your butt clappers and have a nice cool sensation while wiping


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 00:57:18


Post by: Grimskul


Don't forget the prunes!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 01:39:57


Post by: SBG


 Frazzled wrote:
I can mix rum and water in almost any container!


My kind of apocalyptic skillset!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 02:12:28


Post by: Jihadin


Better spread out the rum over time. Chances we might be relocating to TX around the Dallas area Frazz.....I do believe the moon shining business and the beginning of NASCAR version two will begin 8)

I highly doubt the our (USA & UK...actually say top tier countries) government will take ten years or more to recover from "Anarchy". I do believe ten years to reestablish all our logistical infrastructure across our countries. Granted I'm not going to set up my own personnel fiefdom unless its in our mutual defense and well being. I'm not rolling over for any gangbangers or extreme nut groups (IE Northern Washington Militia Freedom Army or 9th Street Cripes). Though if some form of government takes over and say they abolish the IRS in the future I might have a tendency to think about it. I believe on our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I bleed and sweated for our Stars and Stripes and rather have no other to fly the post. HOOAH


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 02:25:50


Post by: sebster


Relapse wrote:
People always have to eat, whether they work or not. For the people I know that have gone through job loss, this was better than money in the bank, although they did have savings also. The theme that kept coming back with them was that they were glad they had food storage or it would have been hard to have fed their families.


That's just restating your initial point. But seriously, you have $100 in the bank. You can leave the $100 in the bank, or you can spend it on 150 cans of food. Down the track if you lose your job, you will either have $100 in the bank, which you can spend on 150 cans of food, or you will have 150 cans of food.

It sounds a lot like buying a computer in case your current one breaks... just leave the money in the bank, and buy a new computer when the current one breaks.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 02:28:00


Post by: djones520


 sebster wrote:
Relapse wrote:
People always have to eat, whether they work or not. For the people I know that have gone through job loss, this was better than money in the bank, although they did have savings also. The theme that kept coming back with them was that they were glad they had food storage or it would have been hard to have fed their families.


That's just restating the initial claim. But seriously, you have $100 in the bank. You can leave the $100 in the bank, or you can spend it on 150 cans of food.

Down the track if you lose your job, you will either have $100 in the bank, which you can spend on 150 cans of food, or you will have 150 cans of food.

It sounds a lot like buying a computer in case your current one breaks... just leave the money in the bank, and buy a new computer when the current one breaks.


In said time of that economic collapse, what do you think will be more valuable?

Hard goods that will keep you alive? Or a bill of paper that's about as useful as a piece of toilet paper?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 02:33:10


Post by: azazel the cat


I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 02:33:52


Post by: djones520


 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


Of course you do.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 02:46:21


Post by: Jihadin


So if the prices change when you can buy 150 cans of food in the past and you only buy 80 cans of food. So basically in times of financial hardship you have 150 cans of food to sustain an individual family for however long 150 cans can last. Unlike buying now (in future) where you can only get about 80 cans. More likely though we buying Ramen Noodles.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 03:18:06


Post by: Relapse


 sebster wrote:
Relapse wrote:
People always have to eat, whether they work or not. For the people I know that have gone through job loss, this was better than money in the bank, although they did have savings also. The theme that kept coming back with them was that they were glad they had food storage or it would have been hard to have fed their families.


That's just restating your initial point. But seriously, you have $100 in the bank. You can leave the $100 in the bank, or you can spend it on 150 cans of food. Down the track if you lose your job, you will either have $100 in the bank, which you can spend on 150 cans of food, or you will have 150 cans of food.

It sounds a lot like buying a computer in case your current one breaks... just leave the money in the bank, and buy a new computer when the current one breaks.


It sounds funky, but having seen it in actual practice, I can tell you it works. As I said, the people in question also had a savings, but having the food meant just that, they had food. Money can be garnished, fined, taken away by whatever legal means there are by creditors. Food gets left alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jihadin wrote:
So if the prices change when you can buy 150 cans of food in the past and you only buy 80 cans of food. So basically in times of financial hardship you have 150 cans of food to sustain an individual family for however long 150 cans can last. Unlike buying now (in future) where you can only get about 80 cans. More likely though we buying Ramen Noodles.


One of the big things I have learned about storing food is to get the stuff you like to eat. That way you end up rotating your storage during your normal course of making meals, keeping it well within expiration limits. If the time comes for whatever reason that you do have to live solely from it, your morale has a better chance of remaining at a decent level because you have decent stuff to eat.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 04:16:53


Post by: Grey Templar


But being hungry is plenty of motivation to eat stuff. Being a college student I know. You will eat stuff you didn't like previously.

Unless the thing in question is so utterly repugnant you will be able to eat it.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 04:42:48


Post by: sebster


Relapse wrote:
It sounds funky, but having seen it in actual practice, I can tell you it works. As I said, the people in question also had a savings, but having the food meant just that, they had food. Money can be garnished, fined, taken away by whatever legal means there are by creditors. Food gets left alone.


Ah, I get it now. Thanks for taking the time to explain.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 04:45:16


Post by: Forar


Honestly, if someone wanted to improve their survival odds in a disaster, instead of spending $100 on canned goods, I'd probably suggest they instead seek out a cost effective First Aid course and maybe pick up a properly sourced survival manual. Expand ones hobby horizons; learn to fish, to hunt, to properly clean a wound or set a broken bone/dislocated joint, etc. Having a decade worth of food and water on hand, as has been pointed out, is only useful if you also possess the funds required to have a fall back position that isn't in the disaster area (be a real shame to spend giant piles of money over the years on a well stocked cabin only to have it be 5 feet under water, buried in mud or a smoking crater when the meteor drops, etc). Honing the skills necessary to be as self sufficient as possible and having a reasonable (days/weeks/months even) supply and a well thought out bug out bag could do more than all the tens of thousands of rounds of ammo sitting in someones bunker. A home, a cabin, a cache can be destroyed or looted. As long as one is still drawing breath, those enhanced skills may still save their life or that of another.

If it's within someone's means to do so, and they want to, I wouldn't stand in their way. But I'm of a like mind to those who say that having that extra $100 may prove far more versatile and useful to the average person (even if it's just $100 knocked off their outstanding debt, and the tiny stress relief that could represent) over a meager worst case scenario stockpile they might never need or use.

It's impossible to be prepared for literally every contingency, but simple things like being in decent shape, learning constantly and having some reasonable (based on lifestyle and resources available) precautions set up seem vastly more worthwhile than committing to a lifestyle based on expecting the end times to erupt tomorrow. That seems like an awfully stressful way to live.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 05:36:33


Post by: Relapse


 Grey Templar wrote:
But being hungry is plenty of motivation to eat stuff. Being a college student I know. You will eat stuff you didn't like previously.

Unless the thing in question is so utterly repugnant you will be able to eat it.


Being hungry is definitely good motivation to eat, but why compound a bad situation by having things to eat that you normally despise or wouldn't otherwise choose to have? As I said, there is a lot to be said for maintaining some degree of moral by having what you like to eat as your food storage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 sebster wrote:
Relapse wrote:
It sounds funky, but having seen it in actual practice, I can tell you it works. As I said, the people in question also had a savings, but having the food meant just that, they had food. Money can be garnished, fined, taken away by whatever legal means there are by creditors. Food gets left alone.


Ah, I get it now. Thanks for taking the time to explain.



I guess I could have laid things out a bit more clearly from the start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Forar,

There can be a huge misconception about people that develope their storage in that it is thought it just sits there not used until disaster hits. The food storage is constantly in use, being turned over as a regular part of meals. Most people I know that have storage have a good supply of medical supplies and the knowledge to use them as well as being avid outdoors sportsmen.
Quality of life sacrificed? None at all and they don't walk around worrying about an Apocalypse, but have a measure of security knowing they have preparations on hand if something happened. If where they live becomes uninhabitable for whatever reason, they can just bug out to another area where likeminded friends will put them up.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 06:00:16


Post by: sebster


Relapse wrote:
I guess I could have laid things out a bit more clearly from the start.


Nah, it was me not getting it. Anyhow, cheers for your patience.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 12:59:17


Post by: Easy E


My plan for survival is very simple. Don't bother.

If the collapse/disaster is severe enough the living will envy the dead.... or something.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 13:53:11


Post by: gorgon


 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


Possibly. Like I said earlier, usually there seems to be that veneer of prudence and rationality. Then you hear about what they're prepping for, and IDEAS are revealed. It often seems as though there's something in particular they're prepping for, or at least some particular fear that's driving them, and it isn't always something that most people would get bothered about.

Still, ultimately it's about people trying to get a sense of control over the uncontrollable. Is it really any different than someone who spends beaucoup bucks on psychics, etc.? Religion can also fill this role, although I also think it's more than that. If these things make people them feel better/safer/happier, who are we to judge? It probably helps society that people have outlets like these. Not everyone rolls well with the uncertainties of life.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 14:04:18


Post by: Polonius


 gorgon wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


Possibly. Like I said earlier, usually there seems to be that veneer of prudence and rationality. Then you hear about what they're prepping for, and IDEAS are revealed. It often seems as though there's something in particular they're prepping for, or at least some particular fear that's driving them, and it isn't always something that most people would get bothered about.

Still, ultimately it's about people trying to get a sense of control over the uncontrollable. Is it really any different than someone who spends beaucoup bucks on psychics, etc.? Religion can also fill this role, although I also think it's more than that. If these things make people them feel better/safer/happier, who are we to judge? It probably helps society that people have outlets like these. Not everyone rolls well with the uncertainties of life.


Nearly all mental illnesses are simply "normal" aspects of the mind that are out of balance. It's a matter of context and judgment when behaviors or symptoms cross a line from "normal" to "abnormal." So yeah, nobody would consider a family that has bottled water, canned goods, a camp stove, and a few other essentials stashed in their cellar crazy. OTOH, we all consider a family that quits its jobs and moves to a compound in the woods to be pretty nuts.

I think, as you said, for some it's coping mechanism, that by having control over the unknown they feel better. I mean, it's clearly a signficant number of folks that seem to be actively preparing for the collapse of civilisation, even though it's been about 1500 years since we've had a full blown collapse.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 14:08:18


Post by: Frazzled


 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


1. Please review your mental accusations. Please cite where schizophrenic activity has been exhibited.
2. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 14:12:01


Post by: PredaKhaine


I'm a paranoid narcissist.

I know people are out to get me, but not nearly as many as there should be.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 14:30:31


Post by: Polonius


 Frazzled wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


1. Please review your mental accusations. Please cite where schizophrenic activity has been exhibited.
2. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...


Hardly anybody that can really pull of a prepper plan has full blown schizophrenia, as they stil have intact thought processes.

More generally though, I think there's evdience of mild delusions at work.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 14:50:15


Post by: Frazzled


Exactly.

EDIT: it also depends on the level of "prepping." Having supplies for a period of time is one thing. We are very electronic dependant at this point and there are a variety of things that could knock out the grid for a period of time.

Living in a renovated minuteman silo is something altogether different (and cooler).

I just want a hacienda with walls.

and chupacabras.

in the trees...


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 14:51:16


Post by: loki old fart


 Polonius wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


1. Please review your mental accusations. Please cite where schizophrenic activity has been exhibited.
2. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...


Hardly anybody that can really pull of a prepper plan has full blown schizophrenia, as they stil have intact thought processes.

More generally though, I think there's evdience of mild delusions at work.


Possibly right about that, But did people think Noah was nuts? Probably


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 15:56:26


Post by: Spacemanvic


 Frazzled wrote:
Exactly.

EDIT: it also depends on the level of "prepping." Having supplies for a period of time is one thing. We are very electronic dependant at this point and there are a variety of things that could knock out the grid for a period of time.

Living in a renovated minuteman silo is something altogether different (and cooler).

I just want a hacienda with walls.

and chupacabras.

in the trees...


I've learned from the local Amish: we have a manual well water pump -just in case. We are also friends with our neighbors, as well as members of several clubs/groups/departments (safety in numbers). The prepper show is just more Hollyweird reality show BS.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:00:47


Post by: easysauce


 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


some would say the same about all pot heads like yourself.

such wonderfull liberal tolerance and open mindedness you are showing




Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:07:59


Post by: Polonius


 easysauce wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


some would say the same about all pot heads like yourself.

such wonderfull liberal tolerance and open mindedness you are showing




And that's typical ignorant right wing stupidity, because what he said wasn't intolerant. It's judgmental, but not in terms of what should be allowed. He made a clinical judgment. It's likely incorrect, but it's still a judgment of classification, not of acceptability.

Which, alas, is pretty typical of conservatives: they assume that everybody shares their prejudices. Lots of people are likely high functioning schizophrenics, they just don't share it.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:28:31


Post by: easysauce


who says im conservative?

I have only voted liberal,

id hardly say that calling out a group of people as paranoid schitzo's "tolerant", it makes light of a real disorder as well.

calling people stupid for expressing, even if it is incorrect (its not) opinions, isnt very tolerant either, nor acceptable practice on this site.

FYI, im not voting liberal or conservative,

I hate some from both, and like some from both.

and call out both on their hyppocrasies ect,

so dont worry ill bash the conserves when they bash gays, and the liberals when they think sunshine, pot, and lollipops will fix everything


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:33:50


Post by: Manchu


Getting a bit shrill in here. Please recall that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:38:08


Post by: Frazzled


 Spacemanvic wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Exactly.

EDIT: it also depends on the level of "prepping." Having supplies for a period of time is one thing. We are very electronic dependant at this point and there are a variety of things that could knock out the grid for a period of time.

Living in a renovated minuteman silo is something altogether different (and cooler).

I just want a hacienda with walls.

and chupacabras.

in the trees...


I've learned from the local Amish: we have a manual well water pump -just in case. We are also friends with our neighbors, as well as members of several clubs/groups/departments (safety in numbers). The prepper show is just more Hollyweird reality show BS.


A manual water pump would be a good idea. Of course you have to have water. I rermember when we had water in Texas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Polonius wrote:
 easysauce wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.


some would say the same about all pot heads like yourself.

such wonderfull liberal tolerance and open mindedness you are showing




And that's typical ignorant right wing stupidity, because what he said wasn't intolerant. It's judgmental, but not in terms of what should be allowed. He made a clinical judgment. It's likely incorrect, but it's still a judgment of classification, not of acceptability.

Which, alas, is pretty typical of conservatives: they assume that everybody shares their prejudices. Lots of people are likely high functioning schizophrenics, they just don't share it.


I find your closed mindedness intolerable.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:50:16


Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish


 Polonius wrote:
Lots of people are likely high functioning schizophrenics, they just don't share it.


This seems a bit far-fetched. Is that just something you pulled out or is their some backing to that claim?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:52:00


Post by: easysauce


I agree with the above comments on the amish, and to an extent the mormons.

both groups practice prepared ness, and have very usefull skills for sustainable, comfortable (relatively) lifestyles with minimal tech.

the mormons handbook is actually pretty decent in its instructions on how much food ect to store, and its preaching of being self sustained instead of being a burden.

hand pumped wells are awesome, and fairly easy to make, esp if you can rent the digger cheap now.

much harder to actually dig the hole with a shovel, not something Id want to do after the fact lol.

IM lucky in that I have lots of above ground water/springs ect here so I wont have to dig.

still a bugger to clean the water, i highly reccomend the lifesaver water bottles/jerry cans, they take 0 energy, are quick, and portable, and last a long time


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:53:14


Post by: notprop


Disaster prep isn't crazy as has been suggested. Having one of those pumps that turns pee into "drinking" water is.

There's a line people.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:55:04


Post by: feeder


In a major civilization ending event, I would pull a Charlize Theron and not a Viggio Mortensen.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 16:58:22


Post by: notprop


in any situation I would pull Charlize Theron.

I'm just that handsome.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 17:04:45


Post by: Hordini


 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.




Well, how are you defining prepper? How much extra food/water/ammo/supplies does someone need to have to qualify as a prepper in your book?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 17:19:55


Post by: gorgon


 Spacemanvic wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Exactly.

EDIT: it also depends on the level of "prepping." Having supplies for a period of time is one thing. We are very electronic dependant at this point and there are a variety of things that could knock out the grid for a period of time.

Living in a renovated minuteman silo is something altogether different (and cooler).

I just want a hacienda with walls.

and chupacabras.

in the trees...


I've learned from the local Amish: we have a manual well water pump -just in case. We are also friends with our neighbors, as well as members of several clubs/groups/departments (safety in numbers). The prepper show is just more Hollyweird reality show BS.


That's really it, isn't it? If society ends, it's going to be the people that put together a group/team/NEW SOCIETY that survive. As someone said earlier in the thread, if you think you're going to live long term on your own in some bunker off in the woods or desert...well, good luck with that. I'll put my money on the people with diverse skill sets who work together. And quite frankly, I think there'd be plenty of that going on in the event some calamity ends modern society. The entire point of human civilization is that our species figured out they'd benefit more by working together than independently.

One could probably question whether the preppers who build bunkers in some remote location are actually exhibiting some kind of desire to withdraw from society moreso than preparing for some imminent disaster. But psychology really isn't my field, and not something I should dabble it either.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 17:38:58


Post by: Frazzled


 Hordini wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.




Well, how are you defining prepper? How much extra food/water/ammo/supplies does someone need to have to qualify as a prepper in your book?


But Canada having a strategic reserve of maple syrup is just fine right?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 17:57:09


Post by: Grey Templar


 Frazzled wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.




Well, how are you defining prepper? How much extra food/water/ammo/supplies does someone need to have to qualify as a prepper in your book?


But Canada having a strategic reserve of maple syrup is just fine right?


When money is useless, we will revert to a barter system. maple syrup will be a very valuable asset. Its raw energy, something that will be in short supply.

Thus, we will enter Canada and take their syrup at gunpoint


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 17:58:35


Post by: Frazzled


Now THAT's executive thinking!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:16:30


Post by: Spacemanvic


 gorgon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Exactly.

EDIT: it also depends on the level of "prepping." Having supplies for a period of time is one thing. We are very electronic dependant at this point and there are a variety of things that could knock out the grid for a period of time.

Living in a renovated minuteman silo is something altogether different (and cooler).

I just want a hacienda with walls.

and chupacabras.

in the trees...


I've learned from the local Amish: we have a manual well water pump -just in case. We are also friends with our neighbors, as well as members of several clubs/groups/departments (safety in numbers). The prepper show is just more Hollyweird reality show BS.


That's really it, isn't it? If society ends, it's going to be the people that put together a group/team/NEW SOCIETY that survive. As someone said earlier in the thread, if you think you're going to live long term on your own in some bunker off in the woods or desert...well, good luck with that. I'll put my money on the people with diverse skill sets who work together. And quite frankly, I think there'd be plenty of that going on in the event some calamity ends modern society. The entire point of human civilization is that our species figured out they'd benefit more by working together than independently.

One could probably question whether the preppers who build bunkers in some remote location are actually exhibiting some kind of desire to withdraw from society moreso than preparing for some imminent disaster. But psychology really isn't my field, and not something I should dabble it either.


Not to quote Battlestar Galactica, but Im gonna:
"All this has happened before and will happen again."

Rome was actually a very advanced society, and it's influence is still felt to this day. But it did collapse, for a number of reasons that came together at the "right" time. The same is happening to the United States, with some variation but almost on the same path. Both began as Republics, one became an empire (which some argue the US is already). Rome fell to inward corruption, an unsustainable socialist-like system, stagnant behemoth bureaucracy, and towars the end, a massive influx of xenos (not the sci-fi type) that ultimately diluted what it was to be "Roman" as Rome could no longer absorb the flood of cultures. Rome adopted many cultures and assimilated them on their terms. But as Rome grew weak, it forgot itself and began to reflect the cultures moving into the core of the empire.

The point is, nothing is forever, and transition usually involves birth pains. The US one day will fall, it's just the natural order of things. What evolves from that, or when the fall will happen, no one can say. But, I think that preparing for every day disasters (flooding, storms, outtages etc), as well thinking about the future, is a prudent thing.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:24:38


Post by: Polonius


 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Lots of people are likely high functioning schizophrenics, they just don't share it.


This seems a bit far-fetched. Is that just something you pulled out or is their some backing to that claim?


well, it's a bit of a non-sense statement from a technical standpoint, because "schizophrenia" as a diagnosis requires functional limitations, not just a certain number or severity of symptoms.

So, from a technical standpoint, by the time a person could be diagnosed as genuinely psychophenic, they're probably not high functioning anything. Although there are a significant number of people that can treat the symptoms with medication and therapy and are not fully disabled.

More generally, the prevelance of pyschotic symptoms (hallucinations, paranoia, delusions) is supposedly a lot higher than we know. I heard a talk by a psychiatrist who commented that lots of people hear voices or have irrational, bizarre beliefs, but don't mention them because they can work around them. I mean, if you occasionally heard voices, would you see a doctor? What if they didn't really get in the way? Hell, I've read case studies in which a patient complained that after anti-psychotic medication got rid of her voices, she was lonely!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:26:39


Post by: easysauce


 Grey Templar wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.




Well, how are you defining prepper? How much extra food/water/ammo/supplies does someone need to have to qualify as a prepper in your book?


But Canada having a strategic reserve of maple syrup is just fine right?


When money is useless, we will revert to a barter system. maple syrup will be a very valuable asset. Its raw energy, something that will be in short supply.

Thus, we will enter Canada and take their syrup at gunpoint


I highly doubt it, you wont make it through the winter, think of a land war in canada as a land war in russia.

except instead of bears riding unicycles, you would have rabid beavers on dogsleds.

canadians have a pretty high per capita rate of gun ownership too, so i think you will have to trade queso for maple syrup if you want to avoid the rabid beaver dogsled army (which will be well equipped with all the norinco stuff you yanks cant buy down there)

its really odd actually, having cheaper ammo up here then in the states (23c/shot of 223 right now!)





Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:29:46


Post by: Spacemanvic


 easysauce wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.




Well, how are you defining prepper? How much extra food/water/ammo/supplies does someone need to have to qualify as a prepper in your book?


But Canada having a strategic reserve of maple syrup is just fine right?


When money is useless, we will revert to a barter system. maple syrup will be a very valuable asset. Its raw energy, something that will be in short supply.

Thus, we will enter Canada and take their syrup at gunpoint


I highly doubt it, you wont make it through the winter, think of a land war in canada as a land war in russia.

except instead of bears riding unicycles, you would have rabid beavers on dogsleds.

canadians have a pretty high per capita rate of gun ownership too, so i think you will have to trade queso for maple syrup if you want to avoid the rabid beaver dogsled army (which will be well equipped with all the norinco stuff you yanks cant buy down there)

its really odd actually, having cheaper ammo up here then in the states (23c/shot of 223 right now!)





I have tamed my share of beavers. They do not intimidate me......Ammo prices will go down, trust me. Gun prices have stabilized and will come to realistic levels.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:31:07


Post by: Grey Templar


But you forgot, we have Frazzled, which means we have Badger Dogs. And Beavers are like Badgers.

Ergo: Quae omnia nobis est syrupus


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:36:20


Post by: Polonius


 Spacemanvic wrote:

Not to quote Battlestar Galactica, but Im gonna:
"All this has happened before and will happen again."

Rome was actually a very advanced society, and it's influence is still felt to this day. But it did collapse, for a number of reasons that came together at the "right" time.


I agree with you up to this point.


The same is happening to the United States, with some variation but almost on the same path.

The point is, nothing is forever, and transition usually involves birth pains.


There's surprisingly little to connect the US to the classical roman empire, aside from both being powerful nations.

Rome was a highly centralized dictatorship with a low level of economic freedom and who had pinned economic growth primarily on miltary expansion. It was also an empire, with much of it's territory and peopel held more or less against their will. The US is far more culturually and politically integrated, with universal citizenship and suffrage. The US also has a capitist economy that grows on it's own.

It's easy to look at the US today, and see Rome in 400 AD. It's just not a very accurate view. The US has a growing economy, a vibrant culture, and still makes advances in science and technology. More and more people are engaging in the politcal sphere, and long term demographic shifts (namely the rising latino population) are softened by a high degree of assimilation among children and grandchildren of immigrants.

the most worrying trend in the US, from a long term health perspective, is probably the quickly growing income gap between the rich and non-rich. And even then, you don't need to go back to 400AD to find a predecessor. We had the same thing in the 1890s, and while it took a while, we figured it out. And actually, life for the poor is better now than at any time in human history. It's the middle class that's really taking it hard now.



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:41:30


Post by: Frazzled


 Grey Templar wrote:
But you forgot, we have Frazzled, which means we have Badger Dogs. And Beavers are like Badgers.

Ergo: Quae omnia nobis est syrupus


Just say Quebec wants more money and don't want English permitted anywhere. While Western Canada is collectively face palming, WE STRIKE!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:47:55


Post by: Spacemanvic


 Polonius wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:

Not to quote Battlestar Galactica, but Im gonna:
"All this has happened before and will happen again."

Rome was actually a very advanced society, and it's influence is still felt to this day. But it did collapse, for a number of reasons that came together at the "right" time.


I agree with you up to this point.


The same is happening to the United States, with some variation but almost on the same path.

The point is, nothing is forever, and transition usually involves birth pains.


There's surprisingly little to connect the US to the classical roman empire, aside from both being powerful nations.

Rome was a highly centralized dictatorship with a low level of economic freedom and who had pinned economic growth primarily on miltary expansion. It was also an empire, with much of it's territory and peopel held more or less against their will. The US is far more culturually and politically integrated, with universal citizenship and suffrage. The US also has a capitist economy that grows on it's own.

It's easy to look at the US today, and see Rome in 400 AD. It's just not a very accurate view. The US has a growing economy, a vibrant culture, and still makes advances in science and technology. More and more people are engaging in the politcal sphere, and long term demographic shifts (namely the rising latino population) are softened by a high degree of assimilation among children and grandchildren of immigrants.

the most worrying trend in the US, from a long term health perspective, is probably the quickly growing income gap between the rich and non-rich. And even then, you don't need to go back to 400AD to find a predecessor. We had the same thing in the 1890s, and while it took a while, we figured it out. And actually, life for the poor is better now than at any time in human history. It's the middle class that's really taking it hard now.


I had amended that post, did you read the amended version?
You are taking it too literally. But at the same time, the US is right now going through a transition period. We are not a true capitalist system, and lately we are developing a growing class dependent on government help which do NOT contribute to maintaining "the system". Add to this an influx of illegal aliens who do NOT want to assimilate and in some areas of the country, have successfully changed the infected communities with their culture. At one point, immigrants did want their children to assimilate to make something of themselves. But the illegal aliens we have now, do not want to go that path. They want the handout. And we have people in this country already expecting the handout. The problem is, the people that pay into the system (middle class) are getting squeezed out. In many instances, those on the dole have more rights/support than those trying to make their way. This is not sustainable.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:50:27


Post by: Forar


I'm now envisioning a maple syrup based retelling of the Trojan horse.

"It was then, drunk on an irresistible mixture of syrup, pancakes, waffles and crepes that the Mounties disembarked from their empty keg transports, and struck with ruthless determination.

Truly, it was a dark day in the history of all mankind, but they say that the flowers in that field continue to grow the most vibrant colours of them all, fed as the soil did on the blood and sugar shed that day..."

All joking aside, this thread has reminded me to refill some of my supplies and look into an updated first aid kit for the condo. Something to do over the next few months before winter sets in.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 18:59:44


Post by: Polonius


 Spacemanvic wrote:
I had amended that post, did you read the amended version?


I had not, but, you actually made less sense with the amendment.

You are taking it too literally. But at the same time, the US is right now going through a transition period. We are not a true capitalist system, and lately we are developing a growing class dependent on government help which do NOT contribute to maintaining "the system". Add to this an influx of illegal aliens who do NOT want to assimilate and in some areas of the country, have successfully changed the infected communities with their culture. At one point, immigrants did want their children to assimilate to make something of themselves. But the illegal aliens we have now, do not want to go that path. They want the handout. And we have people in this country already expecting the handout. The problem is, the people that pay into the system (middle class) are getting squeezed out. In many instances, those on the dole have more rights/support than those trying to make their way. This is not sustainable.


I think you've succombed the the "barbarians at the gates" mode of thinking, which colors your analysis.

Illegal immigrants is a broad term, but most would love to assimilate. They can't, not because they hate america, but because they have no realistic path to legal residency, much less citizenship. The US has absorbed massive waves of immigration, far larger than the current one, and has move ahead without a tick. The vitriol spilled against modern immigrants infecting communititis with their culture is indistinguishible from that spilled against southern and eastern europeans in the early 20th century, Irish in the late 19th century, or even Germans early on. Once people are citizens and pay taxes and own a tiny piece of the country, they start caring a lot more. Look to France if you want to see a poor job of assimilation.

And yes, incoming populations bring cultures with them, and that can change the US. That's called evolotion, and it's an alternative to extinction.

As for the welfare class, well... I aint' gonna change your mind on that. I think the middle class has an enemy, I just don't think it's the poor.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:03:26


Post by: easysauce


the canadians had vowed vengance upon their US bretheren ever since the great syrup heist of 2054,

waiting for the coldest day in living memory, the brave canucks laced up their skates and attached their hockey stick bayonets to their longbranches.

then they all skated down the frozen missipi in the dead of night, making no sound as they glided effortlessly along the ice.

first they left a trail of canadian bacon, so as to lead away all the deadly weiner dog defence forces, then they crippeled the populace with deadly broadcasts of celene dion at extremly high volume.

then next morning, those few souls hat were left, awoke to scenes of carnage and despair, skate slashed throats, bodies that had been cross checked so badly as to be unrecognizable as being human.

all this paled in comparison to the biological warfare the canucks had used.

For as they left, they seeded the land with quebecers, who spread their virulent language laws, and convinced the south to seceed, causing a new civil war.



Oh and they burnt down the white house, AGAIN.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:10:33


Post by: Grey Templar


The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:12:13


Post by: Frazzled


 Forar wrote:
I'm now envisioning a maple syrup based retelling of the Trojan horse.

"It was then, drunk on an irresistible mixture of syrup, pancakes, waffles and crepes that the Mounties disembarked from their empty keg transports, and struck with ruthless determination.

Truly, it was a dark day in the history of all mankind, but they say that the flowers in that field continue to grow the most vibrant colours of them all, fed as the soil did on the blood and sugar shed that day..."

All joking aside, this thread has reminded me to refill some of my supplies and look into an updated first aid kit for the condo. Something to do over the next few months before winter sets in.


This thread reminds me that there are only 11 days left in Frazzled hurricane season.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:34:10


Post by: Spacemanvic


 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.


^^THIS^^


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:34:54


Post by: Polonius


 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


I'm not sure why. I mean, aside from the data which indicates that illegal immigrants put more into the economy than they take out, why would young, hard working people entering an economy be a hindrance, especially when most industrial nations are facing population declines?

You mention land, but we have a lower population density than mexico, china, or india! We have more room to grow than most nations! (yes a big chunk of that is Alaska, but I've driven enough of this country to know that we haven't run out of room.)


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.


Well, illegal immigrants aren't coming here to see the sights. They're coming here for work, it's simply work that pays less than minimum wage. The laws of supply and demand seem to indicate that if a giant supply of anything is coming into the country, there is probably a demand. Shockingly, good old fashioned capitilist Americans like saving money, even if it's slightly illegal.

A great quote: “The reason we do not have secure borders is because of an insatiable demand for cheap labor,” says Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., a leading immigration-control advocate in Congress. “We have the ability to secure the border; we choose not to. The Democratic Party sees massive immigration — legal and illegal — as a massive source of voters. The Republican Party looks at the issue and says, 'Wow, that's a lot of cheap labor coming across that border.' ”
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Sources,%20Links/illegal_immigration.htm




Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:39:02


Post by: Spacemanvic


 Polonius wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


I'm not sure why. I mean, aside from the data which indicates that illegal immigrants put more into the economy than they take out, why would young, hard working people entering an economy be a hindrance, especially when most industrial nations are facing population declines?

You mention land, but we have a lower population density than mexico, china, or india! We have more room to grow than most nations! (yes a big chunk of that is Alaska, but I've driven enough of this country to know that we haven't run out of room.)


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.


Well, illegal immigrants aren't coming here to see the sights. They're coming here for work, it's simply work that pays less than minimum wage. The laws of supply and demand seem to indicate that if a giant supply of anything is coming into the country, there is probably a demand. Shockingly, good old fashioned capitilist Americans like saving money, even if it's slightly illegal.


Thats the thing, a majority of them are NOT coming here for work. 20, 25 years ago that may have been true, but not since the laws around welfare were changed to include them. they are expecting the growing socialist handout.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:44:31


Post by: Polonius


 Spacemanvic wrote:

Thats the thing, a majority of them are NOT coming here for work. 20, 25 years ago that may have been true, but not since the laws around welfare were changed to include them. they are expecting the growing socialist handout.


Not true. Or, at least not true to the extent that you seem to allege.

http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

•In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), 57 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.

•Illegal immigrant households with children primarily use food assistance and Medicaid, making almost no use of cash or housing assistance.

•An unwillingness to work is not the reason immigrant welfare use is high. The vast majority (95 percent) of immigrant households with children had at least one worker in 2009. But their low education levels mean that more than half of these working immigrant households with children still accessed the welfare system during 2009.

And this is from a think tank that is for lower immigration!

Of course, people think "welfare program" and they think somebody that doesn't work collecting a large month check. Most people that recieve welfare get food assistance or medicaid, not cash. Hell, I dated a girl that worked full time and got food stamps.



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:55:33


Post by: Spacemanvic


Does a roaring economy exist as the population becomes increasingly dependent on welfare?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 19:57:58


Post by: Grey Templar


But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 20:49:55


Post by: Spacemanvic


 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future.


This is how you water down a culture, erode national sovereignty.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 21:11:55


Post by: Rotary


I think we will be fine, so many other countrys have it worse than us in the states. If they can survive so can we, people will just be forced to learn to adapt. The biggest issues people will have is entitlement, i feel like our country really supports people who don't want to work. Americans do like to prep though, its a hobby like 40k. Instead of bragging about your new units its the 50 extra gallons of water you just procured for your bomb shelter.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 22:37:32


Post by: loki old fart


 gorgon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Exactly.

EDIT: it also depends on the level of "prepping." Having supplies for a period of time is one thing. We are very electronic dependant at this point and there are a variety of things that could knock out the grid for a period of time.

Living in a renovated minuteman silo is something altogether different (and cooler).

I just want a hacienda with walls.

and chupacabras.

in the trees...


I've learned from the local Amish: we have a manual well water pump -just in case. We are also friends with our neighbors, as well as members of several clubs/groups/departments (safety in numbers). The prepper show is just more Hollyweird reality show BS.


That's really it, isn't it? If society ends, it's going to be the people that put together a group/team/NEW SOCIETY that survive. As someone said earlier in the thread, if you think you're going to live long term on your own in some bunker off in the woods or desert...well, good luck with that. I'll put my money on the people with diverse skill sets who work together. And quite frankly, I think there'd be plenty of that going on in the event some calamity ends modern society. The entire point of human civilization is that our species figured out they'd benefit more by working together than independently.

One could probably question whether the preppers who build bunkers in some remote location are actually exhibiting some kind of desire to withdraw from society moreso than preparing for some imminent disaster. But psychology really isn't my field, and not something I should dabble it either.


Read your post, and the posts about maple syrup . And it bought to mind this video.


Now I know you guys probably won't watch it, But it's informative.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 22:55:45


Post by: feeder


 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future


Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 23:00:14


Post by: Instinctual


 Spacemanvic wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.


^^THIS^^


I agree.

I am ex-military, and spent 7 years as a street cop in a major urban area down south over the last decade, and the pressure to assimilate is simply no longer there.

I can not tell you how many times I have been in the gheto (name your color or creed, we had them all including your classic redneck types) and had candid conversations with the people there. Most of them will tell you the following, and I can personally vouch for the truth of their words.

If you stay illegal you are almost untouchable legally, unless you commit a major felony (I'm talking aggravated rape, murder, something like that: definitely not property or financial crimes). I have arrested some individuals up to 5 times (before they wandered out of my beat) under different names, locked them up, only to find them back on the street the next day with a new name, new documentation, and committing the same old crimes.

No finger prints if you don't commit a felony, and if you don't show up to trial and all your documentation was false in the first place, are they really going to look for you? Simple answer is no.

Talk to any ICE agent and they will tell you what a joke deportation is, hell they even send the hardcore boys that do get deported to college and GED classes while they're waiting on their chance to hop the fence again.

In addition any illegal worth their salt can still register any children and themselves up for welfare and government aid while illegal. Even if some red tape is in the way a quick stop at the nearest flea market will net you all the false documentation you could ever need to circumvent said red tape.

Plus, once you've obtained your illegal untouchable status and wrangled yourself up some benefits, bam, you just get involved in the local black market and your home free financially.

I have been in sooooo many welfare / gheto / criminal homes that have perfectly kept expensive vehicles / appliances / furniture / homes that not even one of my Majors could have afforded.

There is simply no reason to become a legal citizen if you do the math. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has more rights than a criminally connected illegal immigrant in our current society. I wish it were not true, but it is.

Likewise, nobody has less rights than a legally documented, easily traced and sued /fined / jailed legal citizen in this country. You have something to lose, and they know where to find you. It really is head between the knees pucker up time on that one.

I have busted my ass for over a decade serving my country, have spent blood sweat and tears to try to keep it running, but it really is all for naught. Honestly, if I could wave a magic wand and become an undocumented nobody without an ounce of legal history or traceability, I would do it in a heartbeat. Its really that bad.

I wish I could say we don't look like Rome, and in many way's we are quite different, but all you have to do is look at the growing rate of fragmentation and self-segregation in our society to know that bad things are coming. The Goths are definitely inside the gates and living under their own rule in our lands, in that way we are very much like Rome in it's final years.

Corruption and unsustainable economic models can only continue for so long before they fall down, when they fall down it will make Katrina look like a pleasant Sunday Afternoon.

I personally know people that were displaced from there, and it was much worse than the news and or cultural memory paint it to have been. If you are not prepared to act as your own 911 in a crisis, you're screwed.

Also, a few things to remember. The devastation was in an isolated area, there was plenty of forewarning and time to brace before the event, the area benefited from a massive emergency response from the rest of the nation, and it all occurred in relatively good economic times.

Remember, when the beast is at your door the police are only MINUTES away (my response time was often 10-15 going lights and sirens folks)

So, to sum up this rather lengthy post: Are we in for bad times ahead, assuredly yes. Will it break the Nation, sent us into the Apocalypse or civic collapse, I have no idea but hope not. In the meantime, be prudent and prepared. Set time aside to get ready for bad situations, but live a good life and don't hide in a silo in east Bumble-F with a tinfoil hat strapped on your head.

Invest in life skills that make you adaptable, develop the will to do what it takes to survive no matter what (both for yourself and those you love), develop strong interconnected communities that you can count on, and do what you can to relax and take a breath now and again.

Hope that helps,

Molon Labe



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/04 23:02:00


Post by: Rotary


feeder wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future


Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.


This! But our country is kind of backwards. I worked part time barely scrapping by while i was in school and would have made MORE on unemployment or welfare. Our country is willing to pay for me to sit on my butt not working, but since i was a paramedic student which isn't a standard degree i couldn't get an ounce of government aid to get my license. So we will pay for a guy like me to sit at home but not to help educate them? Thats how i see it at least.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 00:10:29


Post by: Spacemanvic


feeder wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future


Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.


Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 00:20:47


Post by: feeder


 Spacemanvic wrote:
feeder wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future


Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.


Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.


What? Illegals get documentation saying they are illegal and don't pay sales tax? That is... odd.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 02:14:03


Post by: Spacemanvic


feeder wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
feeder wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future


Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.


Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.


What? Illegals get documentation saying they are illegal and don't pay sales tax? That is... odd.



An illegal paying with an EBT and claiming that they pay sales tax, is equal to the stupidity of taking a bucket of water from the deep end of the pool, pouring it into the shallow end and then beating on your chest as you exclaim " I am filling the pool!" That ranks up there with the logic " We have to pass the bill first to find out whats in it." If only a lib would pause long enough to think things through.....but then they'd have to think.......


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 02:23:09


Post by: Jihadin


Well those registered "illegals" are drawing their funds from the desist SS accounts that the government does not close out. Whatever funds from the interest that it collects are applied to the funding for the "illegal" immigrant". Subsidies are another ball of wax.

One never knows though in a collapse society who has their act together and knows what the Hell they are doing. For all I know the "illegal" immigrant a doctor in his country and not in ours. I sure won't turn him away. As for the other non skill labor "force" Hell we have a salvage/foraging team(s)


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 03:10:23


Post by: whembly


Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 03:11:45


Post by: Jihadin


Keep in mind water will always go "down"


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 03:23:12


Post by: whembly


 Jihadin wrote:
Keep in mind water will always go "down"

GREAT! Drinking water.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 03:47:27


Post by: Jihadin


So where in the floor plan is the waste water recycling unit.....


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 03:51:36


Post by: whembly


 Jihadin wrote:
So where in the floor plan is the waste water recycling unit.....

The bottom floor...

Seriously, there's plethora of water retention strategies in a place like that.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 04:13:24


Post by: Jihadin


I can be very creative on how to fill a hole with water......


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 04:22:57


Post by: whembly


 Jihadin wrote:
I can be very creative on how to fill a hole with water......

I'm sure you could.

But then again, I'd distract you with some beer and brauts.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 04:28:52


Post by: Jihadin


Mission accomplish...now fire up the grill 8)


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 04:47:05


Post by: sebster


 Grey Templar wrote:
We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


If that were true, then there would be no jobs for unskilled illegal immigrants. As they keep coming and keep finding employment, it's pretty clear your theory is wrong.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 04:54:59


Post by: xole


 whembly wrote:
Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".


You won't have any cell phone reception. Depending on the structure you may also be reduced to land line internet.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 05:45:57


Post by: notprop


Dont be daft, at he end of the world there will only be dial-up!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 09:07:44


Post by: loki old fart


Seen the debt clock ?
http://www.usdebtclock.org/


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 11:01:02


Post by: Frazzled


feeder wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
feeder wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future


Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.


Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.


What? Illegals get documentation saying they are illegal and don't pay sales tax? That is... odd.


US Sales Taxes are not VAT taxes.
You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year. Its designed to keep wages down.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 13:53:23


Post by: whembly


 xole wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".


You won't have any cell phone reception. Depending on the structure you may also be reduced to land line internet.

We got a thing called "Technology" there brah...

Seriously, if I'd need cell reception (which is likely), I'd wire it with network extenders. (they're mini cell towers that sends data via broadband, I've got one for Sprint and Verizon in my garage now since cell reception suck at my house).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

My only issue with this is that even THAN is underestimated. The truth is... we don't know what the feth is going to happen... just that the "debt chicken" will come home to roost sometime in the future.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 14:39:07


Post by: loki old fart


 whembly wrote:


Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

My only issue with this is that even THAT is underestimated. The truth is... we don't know what the feth is going to happen... just that the "debt chicken" will come home to roost sometime in the future.


Feel sorry for you guys, When you go down the pan you'll take Europe with you. So we'll all be in this together.

Nuclear war is not survivable really, so it's best to drive into ground zero.
Natural disasters can be survived by a strong shelter, and good food/water supply(till help comes).
Civil unrest due too economic collapse, plan for years not months. You'll need trusted friends, group survival beats solo survival chances.



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 14:45:25


Post by: Spacemanvic


 loki old fart wrote:
 whembly wrote:


Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

My only issue with this is that even THAT is underestimated. The truth is... we don't know what the feth is going to happen... just that the "debt chicken" will come home to roost sometime in the future.


Feel sorry for you guys, When you go down the pan you'll take Europe with you. So we'll all be in this together.

Nuclear war is not survivable really, so it's best to drive into ground zero.
Natural disasters can be survived by a strong shelter, and good food/water supply(till help comes).
Civil unrest due too economic collapse, plan for years not months. You'll need trusted friends, group survival beats solo survival chances.


EDIT: Civil unrest due too economic collapse, plan for years not months. You'll need trusted friends, *armed* group survival beats solo survival chances.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 15:08:07


Post by: loki old fart


Is this the next money?



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 18:44:25


Post by: Forar


 loki old fart wrote:
Is this the next money?


Nope.

In the event that the global economy actually loses faith in the USD and begins calling in all outstanding debts/abandons their stockpiles of it in favour of something else/whatever else might cause or result from such a catastrophe, its likely any and all currency will either gradually (some will cling to what they've known all their lives, even if this becomes simply ridiculous inflation) or immediately, at which point useful materials will become one of the few things worth having, either for personal use or bartering. Food, clean water, weapons, ammo, medical supplies, clothes (particularly in colder climates), shelter, other raw materials and survival supplies, etc. The right skillset could also prove to be worthy of trade in the right circumstances, but that might be a much harder sell.

While gold has some industrial applications, if we're talking about trying to use it as a currency, I imagine it'd just become something taken by those with the will/people/gear to do so, and if you have the will/people/gear to resist them, then the gold wasn't all that useful in the first place.

Basically, if it comes down to gold again, it probably won't be until after some minor manner of civilization (even if it's warring tribes of survivors) begins to re-establish itself, meaning said food/ammo/materials/etc would be far more useful in getting to that point, than some currency that may or may not be worth the effort to store or carry it.

In case you can't tell, I take a rather dour view on those stoking and feeding on peoples fears in an effort to sell them things. Gold bugs being right up there a lot of the time. :-D

Edit: I'll give them props; a gold bar that you can 'make change with' is fairly novel.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 18:58:17


Post by: Dark Apostle 666


As regards post-apoc currency, I'd say a barter-based system is more likely to emerge, rather than gold.

But I still keep a few bottle caps around, just in case


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 19:25:12


Post by: Spacemanvic


 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
As regards post-apoc currency, I'd say a barter-based system is more likely to emerge, rather than gold.

But I still keep a few bottle caps around, just in case

You cant go wrong with a few bottles of Nuka Cola!


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 19:59:55


Post by: Easy E


The post-apoc currency is "Might makes Right".


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/05 20:44:37


Post by: Grimskul


 Spacemanvic wrote:
 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
As regards post-apoc currency, I'd say a barter-based system is more likely to emerge, rather than gold.

But I still keep a few bottle caps around, just in case

You cant go wrong with a few bottles of Nuka Cola!


I dunno, seeing as how Sunset Sarsaparilla doesn't give you any rads unlike non-Ice Cold Nuka Colas which give you a pretty hefty amount of rads after a while which inevitably ends up with more usage of Rad-Away which always gives you one heck of a case of the runs.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/06 06:30:27


Post by: loki old fart


Your new home



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/06 06:47:08


Post by: Jihadin


Something to consider. To help with ideas though Google the tunnels during the Vietnam War


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 02:42:18


Post by: sebster


 Frazzled wrote:
You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year. Its designed to keep wages down.


You've been importing poor people since before you were a country. For much of your history you had the highest growing living standards and highest levels of social mobility in the world - ie if a person had to start out poor, the USA was the absolute best place to do it.

Simply put, if you oppose higher minimum wages and better support services for the poor, but claim you oppose immigration to protect the poor, well you're not being very honest with yourself.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 03:08:54


Post by: Jihadin


Sebster. You crack me up at times. I didn't think "Importing" immigrants is a commodity in this country.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 03:38:08


Post by: sebster


 Jihadin wrote:
Sebster. You crack me up at times. I didn't think "Importing" immigrants is a commodity in this country.


Huh? In using 'importing' I was just repeating Fraz's terminology.

And what the hell has 'commodity' got to do with anything?


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 03:44:49


Post by: Jihadin


Relax Sebster. Its the way you worded your sentence around "importing poor people" and the fact that a majority of Americans will not pick veggies/fruits. I had one of my soldiers go on leave a few years back for 30 days just to stay in the local area and pick tobacco for $20 an hour. If he wanted he could also get placed into the night rotation to keep tabs on the drying racks for $25 an hour. Mind you, to have a second job while in the US Army one needs approval from the Commander. Our Commander wanted to do it to just for the pay


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 03:48:28


Post by: azazel the cat


Hordini wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.

Well, how are you defining prepper? How much extra food/water/ammo/supplies does someone need to have to qualify as a prepper in your book?

I use the TV show to create a pretty solid stereotype: hoarders with a distinct focus, who are operating on the paranoid premise that there is a very specific, singular disaster looming on the horizon, ie: "North Korea is going to detonate an EMP and create a 'year zero'" or "A supervolcano will erupt in the middle of Wyoming and block out the sun for decades".



whembly wrote:Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".

I would love to live in a re-purposed missile silo. That would be awesome, with the right renovations.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 03:58:50


Post by: Relapse


 reds8n wrote:
http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/09/05/the-1970s-cold-war-era-home-built-26-feet-underground/

It's the BBQ that kills me.


I wonder if that shelter was the inspiration for this movie:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_from_the_Past_(film)


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 13:15:54


Post by: Frazzled


 sebster wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year. Its designed to keep wages down.


You've been importing poor people since before you were a country. For much of your history you had the highest growing living standards and highest levels of social mobility in the world - ie if a person had to start out poor, the USA was the absolute best place to do it.

Simply put, if you oppose higher minimum wages and better support services for the poor, but claim you oppose immigration to protect the poor, well you're not being very honest with yourself.


Your post screams lack of coherent internal logic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jihadin wrote:
Relax Sebster. Its the way you worded your sentence around "importing poor people" and the fact that a majority of Americans will not pick veggies/fruits. I had one of my soldiers go on leave a few years back for 30 days just to stay in the local area and pick tobacco for $20 an hour. If he wanted he could also get placed into the night rotation to keep tabs on the drying racks for $25 an hour. Mind you, to have a second job while in the US Army one needs approval from the Commander. Our Commander wanted to do it to just for the pay


Thats the common myth. Illegal immigrants work in agriculture-sure.
They also utterly control the construction market now, fast food, light manufacturing, and lower level retail. All the unskilled jobs working class people used to do.
I have nothing against illegal immigrants. generally they are hard working people who run rings around teenagers and mouthbreathers who feel the world owes them.
BUT, you're never going to increase wages for the poor when you have millions who work harder for less. Its simple math.
Now that many of these industries are leaving and/or being further mechanized, there are even less opportunities.

PLus an open border lets lots of Hezzbullah guys in...



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 19:17:22


Post by: Grey Templar


PLus an open border can lets lots of Hezzbullah guys in...


A more correct statement.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/09 19:54:29


Post by: Ketara


 Instinctual wrote:

I agree.

I am ex-military, and spent 7 years as a street cop in a major urban area down south over the last decade, and the pressure to assimilate is simply no longer there.

I can not tell you how many times I have been in the gheto (name your color or creed, we had them all including your classic redneck types) and had candid conversations with the people there. Most of them will tell you the following, and I can personally vouch for the truth of their words.

If you stay illegal you are almost untouchable legally, unless you commit a major felony (I'm talking aggravated rape, murder, something like that: definitely not property or financial crimes). I have arrested some individuals up to 5 times (before they wandered out of my beat) under different names, locked them up, only to find them back on the street the next day with a new name, new documentation, and committing the same old crimes.

No finger prints if you don't commit a felony, and if you don't show up to trial and all your documentation was false in the first place, are they really going to look for you? Simple answer is no.

Talk to any ICE agent and they will tell you what a joke deportation is, hell they even send the hardcore boys that do get deported to college and GED classes while they're waiting on their chance to hop the fence again.

In addition any illegal worth their salt can still register any children and themselves up for welfare and government aid while illegal. Even if some red tape is in the way a quick stop at the nearest flea market will net you all the false documentation you could ever need to circumvent said red tape.

Plus, once you've obtained your illegal untouchable status and wrangled yourself up some benefits, bam, you just get involved in the local black market and your home free financially.

I have been in sooooo many welfare / gheto / criminal homes that have perfectly kept expensive vehicles / appliances / furniture / homes that not even one of my Majors could have afforded.

There is simply no reason to become a legal citizen if you do the math. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has more rights than a criminally connected illegal immigrant in our current society. I wish it were not true, but it is.

Likewise, nobody has less rights than a legally documented, easily traced and sued /fined / jailed legal citizen in this country. You have something to lose, and they know where to find you. It really is head between the knees pucker up time on that one.

I have busted my ass for over a decade serving my country, have spent blood sweat and tears to try to keep it running, but it really is all for naught. Honestly, if I could wave a magic wand and become an undocumented nobody without an ounce of legal history or traceability, I would do it in a heartbeat. Its really that bad.

I wish I could say we don't look like Rome, and in many way's we are quite different, but all you have to do is look at the growing rate of fragmentation and self-segregation in our society to know that bad things are coming. The Goths are definitely inside the gates and living under their own rule in our lands, in that way we are very much like Rome in it's final years.

Corruption and unsustainable economic models can only continue for so long before they fall down, when they fall down it will make Katrina look like a pleasant Sunday Afternoon.

I personally know people that were displaced from there, and it was much worse than the news and or cultural memory paint it to have been. If you are not prepared to act as your own 911 in a crisis, you're screwed.

Also, a few things to remember. The devastation was in an isolated area, there was plenty of forewarning and time to brace before the event, the area benefited from a massive emergency response from the rest of the nation, and it all occurred in relatively good economic times.

Remember, when the beast is at your door the police are only MINUTES away (my response time was often 10-15 going lights and sirens folks)

So, to sum up this rather lengthy post: Are we in for bad times ahead, assuredly yes. Will it break the Nation, sent us into the Apocalypse or civic collapse, I have no idea but hope not. In the meantime, be prudent and prepared. Set time aside to get ready for bad situations, but live a good life and don't hide in a silo in east Bumble-F with a tinfoil hat strapped on your head.

Invest in life skills that make you adaptable, develop the will to do what it takes to survive no matter what (both for yourself and those you love), develop strong interconnected communities that you can count on, and do what you can to relax and take a breath now and again.

Hope that helps,

Molon Labe



It strikes me that the main problem in the above scenario is the ability of people to forge illegal documentation, as opposed to the immigrants themselves.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/10 02:26:37


Post by: sebster


 Jihadin wrote:
Its the way you worded your sentence around "importing poor people"


As I already said, that's fraz's words. He said "You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year."

To which I replied "You've been importing poor people since before you were a country."

To clarify the whole thing... fraz said something stupid. I used his same wording to point out how what he said was stupid.

and the fact that a majority of Americans will not pick veggies/fruits.


It doesn't have to be that specific. Take careful note of that part in my statement 'before you were a country'. Indentured servants were an important part of early colonisation. The Irish and Scots that came across weren't typically very wealthy. On the West Coast the Asian immigrants weren't either.

Somehow, despite all that immigration placing downward pressure on wages, the US had remarkable growth in GDP/capita, and the highest social mobility in the world. This is because, basically, the economy as a whole is more than a simple demand/supply graph, as fraz's theory is limited to. Instead, new waves of immigration doesn't just demand jobs, it also demands goods and services, creating more jobs. And in an expanding economy there is scope for new businesses, increasing opportunities that people can step in to, increasing social mobility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
Your post screams lack of coherent internal logic.


My post lacks coherent internal logic?

You're the guy who spends half his time in political posts claiming you don't care, as long as it doesn't affect you. But then it comes to immigration then suddenly you're concerned for the working man, and inventing nonsense economics to do it.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/10 10:58:34


Post by: Frazzled


That doesn't impact the lack of logic in your post.

Politics doesn't change substantially between the parties.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/11 05:00:34


Post by: sebster


 Frazzled wrote:
That doesn't impact the lack of logic in your post.

Politics doesn't change substantially between the parties.


That's just repetition of your initial claim, followed by a vague, possible non-sequitur.

So just in case you actually want to bother trying, I'll repeat my statement "You're the guy who spends half his time in political posts claiming you don't care, as long as it doesn't affect you. But then it comes to immigration then suddenly you're concerned for the working man, and inventing nonsense economics to do it."


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/11 10:57:47


Post by: Frazzled


You're defending your original post by attacking another poster. Sorry, you lose. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/12 06:47:54


Post by: sebster


 Frazzled wrote:
You're defending your original post by attacking another poster. Sorry, you lose. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.


My original post? What are you talking about? I came in to this conversation just to criticise your post, for its bad economics and inconsistancy with your position in other threads.

The only way that post could be a defense of statements I'd made elsewhere is if I'd mastered time travel, which sadly I have not, because de loreans are hard to come by these days.

Anyhow, I can see you can't even bring yourself to try and defend your original claim, and are instead just making inane complaints about hypocrisy, and monopoly references.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.


That article is pure garbage, as is the original piece from Chris Cox and Bill Archer. There's no accounting requirement for any organisation, public or private, to recognise any and all future payments, without any consideration of future revenue. Does a company recognise the cost of all future payments it will have to make to a new employee over the course of his life, as soon as it employs him? Of course not, because accounting has the common sense to realise that as that person works for the company and generate money that will offset the pay the company is required to give him.

So why in hell would it make any sense to add up the cost of all likely future payments in social security, and pay no attention to all the revenue that will be generated in that time? Because while 86 trillion is a really big number, the total US GDP over that same period of time is more than 900 trillion. In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it. In fact, to make up that gap you'd have to increase taxes by about 4%. So a family with a $10,000 annual tax bill would find themselves paying $10,400.

Truly the apocalypse is coming.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/13 22:27:32


Post by: whembly


 sebster wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:
Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.


That article is pure garbage, as is the original piece from Chris Cox and Bill Archer. There's no accounting requirement for any organisation, public or private, to recognise any and all future payments, without any consideration of future revenue. Does a company recognise the cost of all future payments it will have to make to a new employee over the course of his life, as soon as it employs him? Of course not, because accounting has the common sense to realise that as that person works for the company and generate money that will offset the pay the company is required to give him.

So why in hell would it make any sense to add up the cost of all likely future payments in social security, and pay no attention to all the revenue that will be generated in that time? Because while 86 trillion is a really big number, the total US GDP over that same period of time is more than 900 trillion. In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it. In fact, to make up that gap you'd have to increase taxes by about 4%. So a family with a $10,000 annual tax bill would find themselves paying $10,400.

Truly the apocalypse is coming.

Do you subscribe to the basic idea that you can use basic market accounting on government entities?

Besides... where do you see the "In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it.? I'd be interested in seeing sources that supports that statement.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/13 23:21:23


Post by: easysauce


 sebster wrote:

So why in hell would it make any sense to add up the cost of all likely future payments in social security, and pay no attention to all the revenue that will be generated in that time? Because while 86 trillion is a really big number, the total US GDP over that same period of time is more than 900 trillion. In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it. In fact, to make up that gap you'd have to increase taxes by about 4%. So a family with a $10,000 annual tax bill would find themselves paying $10,400.

Truly the apocalypse is coming.

sebster how on earth can the USA even direct a % of GPD towards paying off a debt....

its gross domestic product, IE a measure of output, its not actually a solid resource that is under the whims of the fed to control.


what the fed/state govmnt's do have is federal and state tax revenue to spend on whatever it is they wanna do, which could be schools, paying down the debt ect ect but tax revenue is substantially less then total GDP.

and even after adding up all revenue, right now the fed is over 766 billion in the red, every year, and owes 17 trillion already, and counting.

thats 53,000 per citizen (148,00 per taxpayer)

the usa's assets are worth 102trillion, its unfunded liabilities are 125 trillion

total debt in the us is 59 trillion, or 188,000$ per citizen, 59,000 of that is actual personal debt per citizen.

average citizens assets are worth 323,000, their liabilities are 1,000,000+

interest on total us debt is 9000 per citizen, per annum

are you noticing a pattern yet?

is it a 1-2% margin of magnitudeto fix amount of debt to you?

and while I 100% do not think the economic depression this amount of debt will cause is going to be the mad max-esque face-eat-a-thon some might be prepping/hoping for, its going to be much more mundane (think cyprus hair cut style but everywhere)

that, or i supposed jubilee could be declared somehow, not holding my breath though,

the next 50 years will not be a good time to hold debt.



*stats from http://usdebtclock.org/



Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/14 00:58:21


Post by: loki old fart


 easysauce wrote:

the next 50 years will not be a good time to hold debt.


Gold is your friend and land has value.


Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse @ 2013/09/16 02:43:28


Post by: sebster


 whembly wrote:
Do you subscribe to the basic idea that you can use basic market accounting on government entities?


Absolutely. I've worked at a fair few not-for-profits and government entities, and moving to IASB has always been an improvement, in both control and transparency.

I mean, there's some technical issues where common accounting practice stops making sense, a classic example I've experienced is land under roads - by the rules of IASB you're supposed to recognise land under roads as an asset for every local government. The result of which in one council I worked for was that the asset base went from about 15 million to about 180 million - producing an equity figure that was just meaningless. This is because the assumptions on that piece of law (that it is land you pay for, could sell for some other purpose if you want, and would be a cost you'd have to incur for any similar future expansion) don't apply to local government.

And in the same way, just totalling up future entitlements at the current moment also makes little or no sense. Because unlike a private company, where those entitlements are granted as part of compensation for work already performed, in government it is an expectation that money will be raised on future employees to cover the healthcare and other entitlements of current payees. So the only meaningful exercise is to account for both expected future payments and expected receipts to determine if there's going to be a shortfall.

But even that's an exercise with massive limitations, limitations so great that including them in accounting statements would be wildly misleading. Because among other things, figures included in financial reports must be reliable, and simply put forecast figures outside of about 5 years are pretty horribly unreliable. So much so that a lot of economists today argue that forecasting outside of about 5 years is a waste of time.

Besides... where do you see the "In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it.? I'd be interested in seeing sources that supports that statement.


My back of the envelope calculations was a little off, but here's a WSJ citing the original trustee report that Cox and Archer were freaking out about;
"Looking just at Medicare, we would need to increase taxes by 4.3 percent of GDP over the levels set by current law. Today, it would be about $600 billion. That is a lot, but it is certainly doable—and it’s a lot less than $8 trillion."
http://truth-out.org/news/item/13139-entitlements-scare-tactics

And I don't mean to imply that's a tiny number - increasing by my figure of 2% of GDP, let alone the 4.3% in the WSJ piece, is a major piece of policy and a considerable burden on future taxpayers. But that's all it is, and seen in the light of the chicken little "86 trillion we're totally screwed slash entitlements" tone of the original piece....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 easysauce wrote:
sebster how on earth can the USA even direct a % of GPD towards paying off a debt....

its gross domestic product, IE a measure of output, its not actually a solid resource that is under the whims of the fed to control.

what the fed/state govmnt's do have is federal and state tax revenue to spend on whatever it is they wanna do, which could be schools, paying down the debt ect ect but tax revenue is substantially less then total GDP.


Of course, but it is a portion of GDP, and that portion can change, and the way in which it is commonly described is as a percentage of the total.

thats 53,000 per citizen (148,00 per taxpayer)

the usa's assets are worth 102trillion, its unfunded liabilities are 125 trillion


Yeah, see, that's accounting gibberish. Because, as I already explained in the post you're replying to, you can't add up future payments out, without also including future payments in to the system. It would be like hiring a new employee and writing down a liability for the $1,000,000 in salary and benefits you're going to pay him over the 20 years he'll work for the company... without also including some kind of asset for the work he's going to produce over that time.