Surviving the Coming Economic Collapse

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**loki old fart**

Seen the debt clock ?
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

**Frazzled**

feeder wrote:
Spacemanvic wrote:
feeder wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future

Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.

Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.

What? Illegals get documentation saying they are illegal and don't pay sales tax? That is... odd.

US Sales Taxes are not VAT taxes.
You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year. Its designed to keep wages down.

**whembly**

xole wrote:
whembly wrote:
Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".

You won't have any cell phone reception. Depending on the structure you may also be reduced to land line internet.

We got a thing called "Technology" there brah...

Seriously, if I'd need cell reception (which is likely), I'd wire it with network extenders. (they're mini cell towers that sends data via broadband, I've got one for Sprint and Verizon in my garage now since cell reception suck at my house).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

loki old fart wrote:
Seen the debt clock ?
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

My only issue with this is that even THAN is underestimated. The truth is... we don't know what the feth is going to happen... just that the "debt chicken" will come home to roost sometime in the future.

**loki old fart**

whembly wrote:

loki old fart wrote:
Seen the debt clock ?
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

My only issue with this is that even THAT is underestimated. The truth is... we don't know what the feth is going to happen... just that the "debt chicken" will come home to roost sometime in the future.

Feel sorry for you guys, When you go down the pan you'll take Europe with you. So we'll all be in this together.

Nuclear war is not survivable really, so it's best to drive into ground zero.
Natural disasters can be survived by a strong shelter, and good food/water supply(till help comes).
Civil unrest due too economic collapse, plan for years not months. You'll need trusted friends, group survival beats solo survival chances.

**Spacemanvic**

loki old fart wrote:
whembly wrote:

loki old fart wrote:
Seen the debt clock ?
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

My only issue with this is that even THAT is underestimated. The truth is... we don't know what the feth is going to happen... just that the "debt chicken" will come home to roost sometime in the future.

Feel sorry for you guys, When you go down the pan you'll take Europe with you. So we'll all be in this together.

Nuclear war is not survivable really, so it's best to drive into ground zero.
Natural disasters can be survived by a strong shelter, and good food/water supply(till help comes).
Civil unrest due too economic collapse, plan for years not months. You'll need trusted friends, group survival beats solo survival chances.

EDIT: Civil unrest due too economic collapse, plan for years not months. You'll need trusted friends, *armed* group survival beats solo survival chances.

**loki old fart**

Is this the next money?

**Forar**

loki old fart wrote:
Is this the next money?

Nope.

In the event that the global economy actually loses faith in the USD and begins calling in all outstanding debts/abandons their stockpiles of it in favour of something else/whatever else might cause or result from such a catastrophe, its likely any and all currency will either gradually (some will cling to what they've known all their lives, even if this becomes simply ridiculous inflation) or immediately, at which point useful materials will become one of the few things worth having, either for personal use or bartering. Food, clean water, weapons, ammo, medical supplies, clothes (particularly in colder climates), shelter, other raw materials and survival supplies, etc. The right skillset could also prove to be worthy of trade in the right circumstances, but that might be a much harder sell.

While gold has some industrial applications, if we're talking about trying to use it as a currency, I imagine it'd just become something taken by those with the will/people/gear to do so, and if you have the will/people/gear to resist them, then the gold wasn't all that useful in the first place.

Basically, if it comes down to gold again, it probably won't be until after some minor manner of civilization (even if it's warring tribes of survivors) begins to re-establish itself, meaning said food/ammo/materials/etc would be far more useful in getting to that point, than some currency that may or may not be worth the effort to store or carry it.

In case you can't tell, I take a rather dour view on those stoking and feeding on peoples fears in an effort to sell them things. Gold bugs being right up there a lot of the time. :-D

Edit: I'll give them props; a gold bar that you can 'make change with' is fairly novel.

**Dark Apostle 666**

As regards post-apoc currency, I'd say a barter-based system is more likely to emerge, rather than gold.

But I still keep a few bottle caps around, just in case

**Spacemanvic**

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
As regards post-apoc currency, I'd say a barter-based system is more likely to emerge, rather than gold.

But I still keep a few bottle caps around, just in case

You cant go wrong with a few bottles of Nuka Cola!

**Easy E**

The post-apoc currency is "Might makes Right".

**Grimskul**

Spacemanvic wrote:
Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
As regards post-apoc currency, I'd say a barter-based system is more likely to emerge, rather than gold.

But I still keep a few bottle caps around, just in case

You cant go wrong with a few bottles of Nuka Cola!

I dunno, seeing as how Sunset Sarsaparilla doesn't give you any rads unlike non-Ice Cold Nuka Colas which give you a pretty hefty amount of rads after a while which inevitably ends up with more usage of Rad-Away which always gives you one heck of a case of the runs.

**loki old fart**

Your new home

**Jihadin**

Something to consider. To help with ideas though Google the tunnels during the Vietnam War

**reds8n**

http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/09/05/the-1970s-cold-war-era-home-built-26-feet-underground/

It's the BBQ that kills me.

**sebster**

Frazzled wrote:
You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year. Its designed to keep wages down.

You've been importing poor people since before you were a country. For much of your history you had the highest growing living standards and highest levels of social mobility in the world - ie if a person had to start out poor, the USA was the absolute best place to do it.

Simply put, if you oppose higher minimum wages and better support services for the poor, but claim you oppose immigration to protect the poor, well you're not being very honest with yourself.

**Jihadin**

Sebster. You crack me up at times. I didn't think "Importing" immigrants is a commodity in this country.

**sebster**

Jihadin wrote:
Sebster. You crack me up at times. I didn't think "Importing" immigrants is a commodity in this country.

Huh? In using 'importing' I was just repeating Fraz's terminology.

And what the hell has 'commodity' got to do with anything?

**Jihadin**

Relax Sebster. Its the way you worded your sentence around "importing poor people" and the fact that a majority of Americans will not pick veggies/fruits. I had one of my soldiers go on leave a few years back for 30 days just to stay in the local area and pick tobacco for $20 an hour. If he wanted he could also get placed into the night rotation to keep tabs on the drying racks for $25 an hour. Mind you, to have a second job while in the US Army one needs approval from the Commander. Our Commander wanted to do it to just for the pay

**azazel the cat**

Hordini wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
I consider preppers to be moderately-to-high-functioning paranoid schizophrenics.

Well, how are you defining prepper? How much extra food/water/ammo/supplies does someone need to have to qualify as a prepper in your book?

I use the TV show to create a pretty solid stereotype: hoarders with a distinct focus, who are operating on the paranoid premise that there is a very specific, singular disaster looming on the horizon, ie: "North Korea is going to detonate an EMP and create a 'year zero'" or "A supervolcano will erupt in the middle of Wyoming and block out the sun for decades".

whembly wrote:Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".

I would love to live in a re-purposed missile silo. That would be awesome, with the right renovations.

**Relapse**

reds8n wrote:
http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/09/05/the-1970s-cold-war-era-home-built-26-feet-underground/

It's the BBQ that kills me.

I wonder if that shelter was the inspiration for this movie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_from_the_Past_(film)

**Frazzled**

sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year. Its designed to keep wages down.

You've been importing poor people since before you were a country. For much of your history you had the highest growing living standards and highest levels of social mobility in the world - ie if a person had to start out poor, the USA was the absolute best place to do it.

Simply put, if you oppose higher minimum wages and better support services for the poor, but claim you oppose immigration to protect the poor, well you're not being very honest with yourself.

Your post screams lack of coherent internal logic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
Relax Sebster. Its the way you worded your sentence around "importing poor people" and the fact that a majority of Americans will not pick veggies/fruits. I had one of my soldiers go on leave a few years back for 30 days just to stay in the local area and pick tobacco for $20 an hour. If he wanted he could also get placed into the night rotation to keep tabs on the drying racks for $25 an hour. Mind you, to have a second job while in the US Army one needs approval from the Commander. Our Commander wanted to do it to just for the pay

Thats the common myth. Illegal immigrants work in agriculture-sure.
They also utterly control the construction market now, fast food, light manufacturing, and lower level retail. All the unskilled jobs working class people used to do.
I have nothing against illegal immigrants. generally they are hard working people who run rings around teenagers and mouthbreathers who feel the world owes them.
BUT, you're never going to increase wages for the poor when you have millions who work harder for less. Its simple math.
Now that many of these industries are leaving and/or being further mechanized, there are even less opportunities.

PLus an open border lets lots of Hezzbullah guys in...

**Grey Templar**

PLus an open border can lets lots of Hezzbullah guys in...

A more correct statement.

**Frazzled**

Has is an even more correct statement.
http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/21/house-panel-hears-testimony-on-hezbollah-in-u-s/

**Ketara**

Instinctual wrote:

I agree.

I am ex-military, and spent 7 years as a street cop in a major urban area down south over the last decade, and the pressure to assimilate is simply no longer there.

I can not tell you how many times I have been in the gheto (name your color or creed, we had them all including your classic redneck types) and had candid conversations with the people there. Most of them will tell you the following, and I can personally vouch for the truth of their words.

If you stay illegal you are almost untouchable legally, unless you commit a major felony (I'm talking aggravated rape, murder, something like that: definitely not property or financial crimes). I have arrested some individuals up to 5 times (before they wandered out of my beat) under different names, locked them up, only to find them back on the street the next day with a new name, new documentation, and committing the same old crimes.

No finger prints if you don't commit a felony, and if you don't show up to trial and all your documentation was false in the first place, are they really going to look for you? Simple answer is no.

Talk to any ICE agent and they will tell you what a joke deportation is, hell they even send the hardcore boys that do get deported to college and GED classes while they're waiting on their chance to hop the fence again.

In addition any illegal worth their salt can still register any children and themselves up for welfare and government aid while illegal. Even if some red tape is in the way a quick stop at the nearest flea market will net you all the false documentation you could ever need to circumvent said red tape.

Plus, once you've obtained your illegal untouchable status and wrangled yourself up some benefits, bam, you just get involved in the local black market and your home free financially.

I have been in sooooo many welfare / gheto / criminal homes that have perfectly kept expensive vehicles / appliances / furniture / homes that not even one of my Majors could have afforded.

There is simply no reason to become a legal citizen if you do the math. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has more rights than a criminally connected illegal immigrant in our current society. I wish it were not true, but it is.

Likewise, nobody has less rights than a legally documented, easily traced and sued /fined / jailed legal citizen in this country. You have something to lose, and they know where to find you. It really is head between the knees pucker up time on that one.

I have busted my ass for over a decade serving my country, have spent blood sweat and tears to try to keep it running, but it really is all for naught. Honestly, if I could wave a magic wand and become an undocumented nobody without an ounce of legal history or traceability, I would do it in a heartbeat. Its really that bad.

I wish I could say we don't look like Rome, and in many way's we are quite different, but all you have to do is look at the growing rate of fragmentation and self-segregation in our society to know that bad things are coming. The Goths are definitely inside the gates and living under their own rule in our lands, in that way we are very much like Rome in it's final years.

Corruption and unsustainable economic models can only continue for so long before they fall down, when they fall down it will make Katrina look like a pleasant Sunday Afternoon.

I personally know people that were displaced from there, and it was much worse than the news and or cultural memory paint it to have been. If you are not prepared to act as your own 911 in a crisis, you're screwed.

Also, a few things to remember. The devastation was in an isolated area, there was plenty of forewarning and time to brace before the event, the area benefited from a massive emergency response from the rest of the nation, and it all occurred in relatively good economic times.

Remember, when the beast is at your door the police are only MINUTES away (my response time was often 10-15 going lights and sirens folks)

So, to sum up this rather lengthy post: Are we in for bad times ahead, assuredly yes. Will it break the Nation, sent us into the Apocalypse or civic collapse, I have no idea but hope not. In the meantime, be prudent and prepared. Set time aside to get ready for bad situations, but live a good life and don't hide in a silo in east Bumble-F with a tinfoil hat strapped on your head.

Invest in life skills that make you adaptable, develop the will to do what it takes to survive no matter what (both for yourself and those you love), develop strong interconnected communities that you can count on, and do what you can to relax and take a breath now and again.

Hope that helps,

Molon Labe

It strikes me that the main problem in the above scenario is the ability of people to forge illegal documentation, as opposed to the immigrants themselves.

**sebster**

Jihadin wrote:
Its the way you worded your sentence around "importing poor people"

As I already said, that's fraz's words. He said "You can't raise up the poor if you import several million more poor a year."

To which I replied "You've been importing poor people since before you were a country."

To clarify the whole thing... fraz said something stupid. I used his same wording to point out how what he said was stupid.

and the fact that a majority of Americans will not pick veggies/fruits.

It doesn't have to be that specific. Take careful note of that part in my statement 'before you were a country'. Indentured servants were an important part of early colonisation. The Irish and Scots that came across weren't typically very wealthy. On the West Coast the Asian immigrants weren't either.

Somehow, despite all that immigration placing downward pressure on wages, the US had remarkable growth in GDP/capita, and the highest social mobility in the world. This is because, basically, the economy as a whole is more than a simple demand/supply graph, as fraz's theory is limited to. Instead, new waves of immigration doesn't just demand jobs, it also demands goods and services, creating more jobs. And in an expanding economy there is scope for new businesses, increasing opportunities that people can step in to, increasing social mobility.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Your post screams lack of coherent internal logic.

My post lacks coherent internal logic?

You're the guy who spends half his time in political posts claiming you don't care, as long as it doesn't affect you. But then it comes to immigration then suddenly you're concerned for the working man, and inventing nonsense economics to do it.

**Frazzled**

That doesn't impact the lack of logic in your post.

Politics doesn't change substantially between the parties.

**sebster**

Frazzled wrote:
That doesn't impact the lack of logic in your post.

Politics doesn't change substantially between the parties.

That's just repetition of your initial claim, followed by a vague, possible non-sequitur.

So just in case you actually want to bother trying, I'll repeat my statement "You're the guy who spends half his time in political posts claiming you don't care, as long as it doesn't affect you. But then it comes to immigration then suddenly you're concerned for the working man, and inventing nonsense economics to do it."

**Frazzled**

You're defending your original post by attacking another poster. Sorry, you lose. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

**sebster**

Frazzled wrote:
You're defending your original post by attacking another poster. Sorry, you lose. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

My original post? What are you talking about? I came in to this conversation just to criticise your post, for its bad economics and inconsistancy with your position in other threads.

The only way that post could be a defense of statements I'd made elsewhere is if I'd mastered time travel, which sadly I have not, because de loreans are hard to come by these days.

Anyhow, I can see you can't even bring yourself to try and defend your original claim, and are instead just making inane complaints about hypocrisy, and monopoly references.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:
Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

That article is pure garbage, as is the original piece from Chris Cox and Bill Archer. There's no accounting requirement for any organisation, public or private, to recognise any and all future payments, without any consideration of future revenue. Does a company recognise the cost of all future payments it will have to make to a new employee over the course of his life, as soon as it employs him? Of course not, because accounting has the common sense to realise that as that person works for the company and generate money that will offset the pay the company is required to give him.

So why in hell would it make any sense to add up the cost of all likely future payments in social security, and pay no attention to all the revenue that will be generated in that time? Because while 86 trillion is a really big number, the total US GDP over that same period of time is more than 900 trillion. In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it. In fact, to make up that gap you'd have to increase taxes by about 4%. So a family with a $10,000 annual tax bill would find themselves paying $10,400.

Truly the apocalypse is coming.

**whembly**

sebster wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:
Old news man...

What's not included are the unfunded liabilities... now THATS a shocker:
Try this... America's True National Deb is: $87 Trillion.

That article is pure garbage, as is the original piece from Chris Cox and Bill Archer. There's no accounting requirement for any organisation, public or private, to recognise any and all future payments, without any consideration of future revenue. Does a company recognise the cost of all future payments it will have to make to a new employee over the course of his life, as soon as it employs him? Of course not, because accounting has the common sense to realise that as that person works for the company and generate money that will offset the pay the company is required to give him.

So why in hell would it make any sense to add up the cost of all likely future payments in social security, and pay no attention to all the revenue that will be generated in that time? Because while 86 trillion is a really big number, the total US GDP over that same period of time is more than 900 trillion. In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it. In fact, to make up that gap you'd have to increase taxes by about 4%. So a family with a $10,000 annual tax bill would find themselves paying $10,400.

Truly the apocalypse is coming.

Do you subscribe to the basic idea that you can use basic market accounting on government entities?

Besides... where do you see the "In other news, to meet all future entitlement spending the US will have to dedicate a bit under 10% of GDP towards it. Which is almost kind of boring, when you presently commit about 8% to it.? I'd be interested in seeing sources that supports that statement.