it is an official GW policy change that from now on, new packaging of GW products will only feature the English (and French) names of the units. This includes boxes and blisters and all sides of the packaging. We also have experienced that about half the rules publications will be in English only, see Death from the Sky, all Codex supplements, AFAIK all digital products and now even the small hardcover 40k rulebook. We know, that the German translation team was disbanded some time ago, to be replaced by a core team or single person in Nottingham and that one single person is responsible for all Japanese translations.
All this is difficult to explain, other than GW plans to retreat from all non-English markets and tries to shrink even further instead of expanding to its full potential.
What can be the reasoning behind all this? Frankly, I don't know, but it doesn't sound good or healthy. Any ideas?
BTW this discussion is in General Discussion, as one mod found that this change of GW policy doesn't deserve a discussion in News & Rumours beyond the day of confirmation, so here we are.
I think this hardly constitutes a retreat from non-English markets
It's more a step towards an even more corporate structure
Here in the UK we've lost many Iconic brand names when their owners have decided that single name should be used world wide
eg Marathon became Snickers
Opal Fruits became Starburst
etc
I'm sure GW intends the unit names to be seen in the same light (while making it easier to defend the IP)
Now on the subject of translations of the actual rules that is probably a dumb move as more languages the rules are available in, the more players they can grab
although their full size translation teams did seem to make a hash of things by starting to translate the books before they were finished and not bothering to change the translation when the English version was changed leading to different rules in different languages on occasion (so hopefully you might at least see translations turn up later in the same way print versions of these extras are now many months behind)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It's more a step towards an even more corporate structure
Here in the UK we've lost many Iconic brand names when their owners have decided that single name should be used world wide
I'm sure GW intends the unit names to be seen in the same light (while making it easier to defend the IP)
If they really intended to change the names internationally to the English ones, why do they release a Space Marine Codex with no mentioning of the English names? Are Space Marines so unimportant? Will they release another Space Marine Codex in 1-2 months?
In other words: I don't think that this can explain anything here.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It's more a step towards an even more corporate structure
Here in the UK we've lost many Iconic brand names when their owners have decided that single name should be used world wide
I'm sure GW intends the unit names to be seen in the same light (while making it easier to defend the IP)
If they really intended to change the names internationally to the English ones, why do they release a Space Marine Codex with no mentioning of the English names? Are Space Marines so unimportant? Will they release another Space Marine Codex in 1-2 months?
In other words: I don't think that this can explain anything here.
So is there a German-Language Space Marine Codex about to come out?
If so, then your topic question is clearly very silly, and merely a means to justify some more internet warblegarble complaining about the boxes being changed yet again.
It's like an insipid effect that gradually builds after prolonged exposure - mark my words, It will happen to you eventually too mate!
I can kind of understand the consternation though - if Corvus Belli suddenly started releasing new rules for cool stuff in Infinity in Spanish-only I would would be the first person on here bitching about it. I'd also probably not respond well if a bunch of posters started saying "well, perhaps you should start learning Spanish - it is the fastest growing language in the world after all?"
Pacific wrote: I'd also probably not respond well if a bunch of posters started saying "well, perhaps you should start learning Spanish - it is the fastest growing language in the world after all?"
Exactly. I can sort of understand Kroot's consternation here. It is easy for English speakers to think of this as some sort of storm in a teacup but it is quite a big deal for non English speakers. Whilst I don't think GW are abandoning foreign language markets completely, I do think it is yet another cost saving method - ie. they can print and produce one box design/layout for all markets and thus save costs on localisation.
Sadly, it doesn't even save a single penny, as GW always printed and produced just one box/blister design for all (and all the names have already been translated).
Pacific wrote: It's like an insipid effect that gradually builds after prolonged exposure - mark my words, It will happen to you eventually too mate!
I can kind of understand the consternation though - if Corvus Belli suddenly started releasing new rules for cool stuff in Infinity in Spanish-only I would would be the first person on here bitching about it. I'd also probably not respond well if a bunch of posters started saying "well, perhaps you should start learning Spanish - it is the fastest growing language in the world after all?"
I only serve the great god CASH! (both Jonny and the folding kind)
If Corvus Belli did that they would cease trading in the greater world in no time at all. It is an Anglo-centric world we live in; that only really annoys the French for the most part everyone else trades happily enough. \not allot will change that, not even the Chinese (who are quite happy trading in English in my experience).
If GW are going to use English as common units names across the world does it matter?
I'm pretty sure Fiat Punto doesn't contain anything other than Italian but none the less international we all know it means gak little car.
As with most of these sensationalist 'Finedisasters' it’s all allot of hot air from those that feel they must be disgusted with every bit of GW minutia.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It's more a step towards an even more corporate structure
Here in the UK we've lost many Iconic brand names when their owners have decided that single name should be used world wide
I'm sure GW intends the unit names to be seen in the same light (while making it easier to defend the IP)
If they really intended to change the names internationally to the English ones, why do they release a Space Marine Codex with no mentioning of the English names? Are Space Marines so unimportant? Will they release another Space Marine Codex in 1-2 months?
In other words: I don't think that this can explain anything here.
Seeing as even a small market like Poland has a translated Codex, I don't think they're retreating, but maybe redesigning their approach to the International market. Not for the better, I'd say.
Poland is a growing market, and it makes sense to support it with localised versions.
I don't see why GW have redesigned the box. I don't think it means anything. It's probably just one of those cases where management decide to do something to show they are needed to make decisions.
1. Bar the scandinavian countries and The Netherlands I guess it is correct to assume that Germany has the highest number of (non-native, obviously) English-speakers in Europe. My wife feels very comfortable here.
So I guess GW just decided to include Germany in the international publication standard, i.e. remove them from the localisation chart. It does save them some money now and hassle in the future.
I have thought it weird in the past that German players had to deal with different (pseudo latin-english) names, to be honest.
And don't think it will change shopping behaviour much. Kids nowadays grow up with so much (pidgin) English, I don't think that they a) will not grasp what is in the box and b) be offended by the lack of German titles.
2. The question of supplementary rule books only being issued in English is a different thing, and I would agree that they are potentially losing sales because of that.
Much more in countries that have traditional difficulties to speak English - even if they know speaking it (I am looking at you, France!).
The question is: Do they lose more sales than it costs to translate the texts and print it? And how will this affect marketing power and hence market penetration, customer retention and sustained sales figures? Again: Are the costs being outweighed by sales? If the answer to that is YES, then, indeed, they are butt-hurting themselves.
But that would not be the first time for GW, would it now?
What can be the reasoning behind all this? Frankly, I don't know, but it doesn't sound good or healthy. Any ideas?
It is annoying, I agree, but given that GW profits are holding up well in the present economic climate, it is obviously done to increase efficiencies, rather than any retrenchment, as you infer.
It's great that you keep us posted with news, kroothawk, but it's intriguing that you seem to post more about negative items (foreign titles disappearing from new box artwork) than about positive items (eg, free 72 page tactical marine painting guide).
What can be the reasoning behind all this? Frankly, I don't know, but it doesn't sound good or healthy. Any ideas?
It is annoying, I agree, but given that GW profits are holding up well in the present economic climate, it is obviously done to increase efficiencies, rather than any retrenchment, as you infer.
It's great that you keep us posted with news, kroothawk, but it's intriguing that you seem to post more about negative items (foreign titles disappearing from new box artwork) than about positive items (eg, free 72 page tactical marine painting guide).
It's not really free though is it? I still have to buy a expensive and (IMO) needless iPad if I want it. How hard would it have been to put it as a free pdf on their website?
But... but... for a PDF I'd still have to buy an expensive and needless computer if I want it. How hard would it have been for them to put people on every corner, handing out free printed painting guides?
Bomster wrote: But... but... for a PDF I'd still have to buy an expensive and needless computer if I want it. How hard would it have been for them to put people on every corner, handing out free printed painting guides?
Bomster wrote: But... but... for a PDF I'd still have to buy an expensive and needless computer if I want it. How hard would it have been for them to put people on every corner, handing out free printed painting guides?
Nooo! That'd require me to leave my house!
If only you lived on a corner then maybe they could pass you the guide through the window
Im not sure if theyre really retreating. Im guessing they figured out that plenty of people in Germany do speak english rather well, and that they can get by with a bit less work in that market. The Netherlands and Belgium dont have any issues with that, so why would Germany?
I do understand that this might upset some people ... especially those that dont get why Sternguard are listed as something else in the Codex.
In the end though, I dont think its going to change anything at all. The prices are skyrocketing, yet people still flock to the stores (maybe not as much ... but going through the SM thread you see plenty of people listing that theyll pay the price). This may alienate a few people that feel like theyre getting shafted, but I doubt its going to have a massive impact.
Personally, I dont care either way ... Im done buying from GW ...
I don't think GW would wish to leave or let go of any potential market. I do think they are very interested in cost cutting exercises atm and that reducing anything and everything seen as superfluous or 'fat' will be cut back to the bone. There may well have been a meeting re the boxes, for example, that said that the vast majority of their nonEnglish language nation customers already speak and read English and so taking the time to rename and translate was a waste of revenue.
I don't think this has a dark hidden agenda, I think it's just cost cutting, again.
My latest threads were on Dark Elves in October, Tyranids in November, new spray cans in September and this policy change. I am happy when I can report good news, but I also report the bad ones.
I don't really see what GW intends to achieve with a Personally it doesn't affect me, since I've been going out of my way for years to put my hands on English publications anyway. But I can see that at least rules (and fluff along with it) should be available for the intended target audience.
That said, I would see consolidating *unit names* as far from a retreat from an international market. Rather the opposite: From the first time the "Dreadnought" was christened "Cybot" I thought that translating unit names was a move toward dramatically fracturing the market, basically isolating every language group within their own little niche. Especially if it is done by people who don't display any hint of skill at finding names that would work as an actual equivalent of the English one (as far as mood and tone are concerned). And it's done in an entirely hodgepodge way, too - so it's okay to talk about "Imperial Fists" and "Blood Angels" in German, but "Genestealer" obviously is too much for delicate German minds to process. I don't attend any international tournaments, but I would imagine that those differences are another obstacle when trying to communicate. So I'm all for an attempt at consolidation in this regard.
Then again, considering the amount of books published in various languages so far, I wouldn't expect GW to make the considerable effort to return all unit names to their English versions.
To reiterate - I have *no* idea what GW plans to achieve with that except somehow saving money in an opaque way... but I'd regard accusing them of "forcing players to learn English" or "deliberately offending non-English speakers" to be the typical kind melodramatic hyperbole that can be expected from the internet.
It's not really free though is it? I still have to buy a expensive and (IMO) needless iPad if I want it. How hard would it have been to put it as a free pdf on their website?
There's the rub. It is incontrovertibly free. But some people will still insist it isn't.
You have to buy a computer to read Dakkadakka. That doesn't mean it isn't free. You would need a computer to read a PDF. By all means, retain your animus against GW, that's a question of opinion, but whether that guide is free or not is not a matter of opinion. It is free.
obviously it is useless it does nothing for the billions of people who know nothing about warhammer! Clearly GW is releasing garbage no one cares about for free but it isn't really free.
BTW frozenwastes your post cost me about $1205 to read and I insist you pay me back as I had to pay about $1200 for the computer and the electricity and internet connection and the time factor I'm adding on an extra $5.....your BS is expensive because it's platform specific.
Kroothawk wrote: Sadly, it doesn't even save a single penny, as GW always printed and produced just one box/blister design for all (and all the names have already been translated).
It is kind of funny that many of the posters have never been to Germany. People do not understand that this country ( and nearby regions) has one of largest game manufacturing areas in the entire world. Product Design. Quality Control is top tier. That region of the world is a board/game strong hold (as well as books). I know this. I have been there years ago and it has not change at all over the years as being a premiere place for quality product. The trade fair is SPIEL and it is in Essen Germany. It is bigger than Gencon.
I keep tabs on current affairs and trends around the world and because of the decline of 40K, my interests are leaning towards boardgames in general to invest in a monetary fashion.
Which comes up to the following. Why is GW not printing different languages on their boxes now? Consolidation of resources due to the fact of the corporation has reduced staffing in this area? The other possible aspect is the loss of their customer base in sections of the foreign market? It could be a printing mistake as well. And finally it could be just the arrogance of the mindset of the corporation. Remember this is the company that stated that Finecast was the best stuff on earth We all know how that turned out to be false.
Why piss off more people in one of the world's largest gaming strongholds when they, as far as it appears do not have too?
I'm hoping that this is just a printing snafu.
frozenwastes wrote: What does any of this have to do with GW's use of language on their products again?
Are there ibooks releases available in multiple languages?
Guess his argument is:
GW is not retreating from non-English markets, look at all those English-only digital products
The way I see it is that if they're going to consolidate their unit names much more across various international markets, it's largely a good thing. If they're not consolidating the unit names and are no longer printing the names in as many languages on the boxes, I see it as a pointless change on their part with no actual upside.
Likewise if they're translating the codices and core rulebooks, etc into other languages, I see no reason for them to not also translate the digital products. They could be translating them at a slower rate after laying off most of their localisation teams (and given their changes to product previews of late - no surprise if we don't hear about them until the day before release day), or if they're not doing it at all, it's still possible that they're doing it not out of a "retreat", but simply being arrogant/dickheads. Similar to how the Sisters army list isn't available anywhere in English short of torrent sites and dropped boxes around the place.
But having said that, I think the OP posit is a bit melodramatic.
It still doesn't make a lot of sense. GW printed the small parts/ choking hazard warning in 23 languages on one side of the new tactical box and the assembly required note in five on another side.
Sigh... I won't be able to sue GW if I accidentally choke myself or my children with small part because it was'nt written in my native language! Evil plan avoid... well done GW... well done!
xruslanx wrote:i would assume that the 'small parts/choking hazard' is a legal requirement in various parts of the world.
As would I, but it still begs the question of why bother changing something they've been doing that is convenient and possibly even helpful for new customers? It's just another odd decision by GW in a long line of oddities that spawns all the "GW hates money/customers" thoughts.
Qcbob wrote:Sigh... I won't be able to sue GW if I accidentally choke myself or my children with small part because it was'nt written in my native language! Evil plan avoid... well done GW... well done!
November sees the second "full Codex" release in English (and digital) only: Inquisition. With Codex Adepta Sororitas in October.
Here an official statement by Games Workshop Digital Editions:
You'd be hard pressed to find anyone these days without a tablet, phone, pc, laptop, mac or eReader. If people have one of these and decide not to buy the book, that is entirely up to them, in much the same way people can decide to buy a new physical codex, or not.
We certainly aren't going to stop making digital books, but you will probably see the majority of the more popular titles make it into print.
So according to GW, everyone can use digital GW products, because everyone in the world obviously speaks English. People in Nottingham would be hard pressed to find anyone not able to speak English. See?
Some of these products might see a print version, if they prove popular among the English speaking mobile computer owning crowd.
I'm not really sure what the point is here though? GW not releasing other language translated products for people who speak other languages sucks for them. Of course.
Now what though? GW obviously thinks that somehow doing this will result in a net-profit so I don't really get what is supposed to come out of this discussion?
Honest question... just seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Kroothawk wrote: To keep this thread updated, here more evidence:
November sees the second "full Codex" release in English (and digital) only: Inquisition. With Codex Adepta Sororitas in October.
Here an official statement by Games Workshop Digital Editions:
You'd be hard pressed to find anyone these days without a tablet, phone, pc, laptop, mac or eReader. If people have one of these and decide not to buy the book, that is entirely up to them, in much the same way people can decide to buy a new physical codex, or not.
We certainly aren't going to stop making digital books, but you will probably see the majority of the more popular titles make it into print.
So according to GW, everyone can use digital GW products, because everyone in the world obviously speaks English. People in Nottingham would be hard pressed to find anyone not able to speak English. See?
Some of these products might see a print version, if they prove popular among the English speaking mobile computer owning crowd.
You're posting in English, on a predominantly English-speaking forum with a German flag.
GW's strategy is a retreat fight. They have no intention to gain new customers by advertising and standard marketing, but accept the exponential loss of existing customers. To keep total revenue flat, they have to milk the remaining customers exponentially. Their means seem to be to drop support for all non-English speaking customers, all customers not wealthy enough for electronic gadgets and so on.
Kanluwen wrote: You're posting in English, on a predominantly English-speaking forum with a German flag.
Some people not only care about themself. Crazy, but happens.
BTW I wouldn't have been able to post here in my teens.
That's not to say they're expanding either. From the CEO's commentary they do not appear to be actively seeking new stores, nor looking at closing any in asia markets either. It's kind of in limbo.
it is an official GW policy change that from now on, new packaging of GW products will only feature the English (and French) names of the units. This includes boxes and blisters and all sides of the packaging. We also have experienced that about half the rules publications will be in English only, see Death from the Sky, all Codex supplements, AFAIK all digital products and now even the small hardcover 40k rulebook. We know, that the German translation team was disbanded some time ago, to be replaced by a core team or single person in Nottingham and that one single person is responsible for all Japanese translations.
All this is difficult to explain, other than GW plans to retreat from all non-English markets and tries to shrink even further instead of expanding to its full potential.
What can be the reasoning behind all this? Frankly, I don't know, but it doesn't sound good or healthy. Any ideas?
BTW this discussion is in General Discussion, as one mod found that this change of GW policy doesn't deserve a discussion in News & Rumours beyond the day of confirmation, so here we are.
I personally believe that the company is a stones throw from going belly up. So, yes. They have no market share when they don't provide support and take it.
If they would get their head out of the fourth point of contact, they would be able to easily turn their sorry performance around.
But they won't, so they can bite the proverbial bullet and take what comes with piecing out a large corporation entity.
@kroothawk That is probably the most meaningless graph wrt to the OP point you could post. It is simply a sum of their revenue, and has nothing to do with individual markets (i.e. non-english speaking markets, like Asia).
Now that I look at it, it's also wrong. It is different than the Finance Review from 2009 - 2013, p. 6. 2009 should be less than 2010 on your graph, which it clearly is not. It should also be in millions (GBP).
That shows a company that boomed with a significant licence which no longer has the same cache as before then a plateau at a resized level higher than it was before during the worst recession for decades. So Kirby dun good?
What does that have to do with GW hating on dirty foreign types? How does that prove that theory?
We look at many other things as well: how many staff per store we have (UK: 1.9, Continental Europe: 1.6, North America: 1.7, Australia:
1.5, Asia: 1.0), how many stores we have (UK: 137, Continental Europe: 135, North America: 99, Australia: 37, Asia: 4),
how many we think we could open (close) next year
(UK: 4 (1), Continental Europe: 10 (4), North America: 38 (28), Australia: 4 (4)).
None of these is a KEY performance indicator. They are simply part of the huge complex of information we use all the time to keep tabs on what is going on and none of them is used to anticipate future performance.
I apologize for the broad characterization, but I really don't understand why people have to be so pedantic about Games Workshop being criticized for writing off a swath of extant, loyal customers. If I was German, I would be pissed off, even if I was fluent in English, so I don't begrudge someone in Germany being pissed off about it.
People can say what they want about it being a sensible business decision, but whatever the cost savings, it is a big 'F you' to a segment of the extant customer base that had been enjoying a given level of support and attention that is now being increasingly denied. I think customers in non-English-speaking countries should stop supporting Games Workshop, and communicate their reasoning to the company.
Seriously, how expensive is it to translate a digital book? That's really the issue. GW is being so darn cheap with these e-dexes that they won't include new artwork or sufficient editing, let alone translate them. If GW has to be that concerned with sucking profit out of digital codices, I can't say that it is a solid indication of the health of the company. This is simply another in a long line of decisions to increase revenue/profits at the expense of customer goodwill. GW views goodwill as an asset that can be cannibalized.
It probably costs several thousand pounds to do a good quality translation and layout, but there is no production cost of physical copies and they charge the same for the digital book as the physical one.
Kilkrazy wrote: It probably costs several thousand pounds to do a good quality translation and layout, but there is no production cost of physical copies and they charge the same for the digital book as the physical one.
Exactly, several thousand pounds. You might say, "Whoa now! Several thousand pounds for several different languages adds up!" But it don't add up to a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. And if GW has to shave off that kind of expense to make sure it eeks some profit out of the e-dexes...how much is it really making from the e-dexes in the first place?
Then you have to ask if the money you stand to make from the untranslated e-dexes is worth the hit to your goodwill. Games Workshop has obviously decided that it is, and it follows that GW feels that it needs to make an extra 10-15 grand off of every e-dex, and is spinning those lumps of cheap, recirculated crap out every month. What does that communicate about the health of the company?
To me, that shows a company that is looking around wildly for any scrap of IP to squeeze some profit out of. It looks like a snazzy idea someone cooked up to take work that was pretty much already done, spend a little effort to throw a few pages of new content in, utilize salaried employees to do the layout, and throw it up for download as quickly as possible. These things are in the same vein as GW lowering its standards and licensing whatever IP it can to whatever software developer is willing to spit out a tablet game. These licences are cheap, and GW risks diluting the value of the IP with a series of crappy, poorly-received games. High risk, low profit. That is not a move made by a company that can afford to turn away a few thousand dollars to maintain the integrity of its most valuable asset.
Again, GW is cannibalizing itself. GW already ate its employees, and already ate its decent retail locations. GW ate the good stuff already. It ate the horses and dogs. GW is down to eating its boots to survive, and when those are done, GW management is going to be eyeing each other with hungry stares...Hell, they already devoured Gill, but she was dying from an infected wound anyhow...so they didn't kill her so much as, you know...eat her.
In my city we went from three GW (big) stores to one (and really small) in less than a year. And the English-only supplements is another hint.
Then we have the AS codex. There are some SoB players here, and most of them do not speak/read English. I have seen at least two custom-made translations printed and used. It is the only way to keep the army they have invested so much money in, but then again this shouldn´t be that way. There should be another option.
And there are even more players interested in the Inquisition.
People can say what they want about it being a sensible business decision, but whatever the cost savings, it is a big 'F you' to a segment of the extant customer base that had been enjoying a given level of support and attention that is now being increasingly denied. I think customers in non-English-speaking countries should stop supporting Games Workshop, and communicate their reasoning to the company.
Seriously, how expensive is it to translate a digital book? That's really the issue. GW is being so darn cheap with these e-dexes that they won't include new artwork or sufficient editing, let alone translate them. If GW has to be that concerned with sucking profit out of digital codices, I can't say that it is a solid indication of the health of the company. This is simply another in a long line of decisions to increase revenue/profits at the expense of customer goodwill. GW views goodwill as an asset that can be cannibalized.
Games Workshop is eating its boots to survive.
There are lots of people that would translate them for free.
I remember all the complaining on these and other boards when GW did produce different language versions because the translations ended up making the game play differently, or have different rules applications, than the english versions. Then the FAQs would often come out earlier or faster for foreign language versions, which caused much gnashing of teeth as well. GW can't keep their main game, in english, organized and edited. No way they manage it across how many languages?
I also travelled in Argentina and talked with some gamers there (veery small stores, veeery high prices) and they didn't speak english, so this change will likely mean whatever inroads they made there will be gone.
I think it would be better financially to farm out translations to a secondary company who specializes in it. It would most likely be cheaper than the yearly salarys to keep said employees and if something comes out wrong you can blame the company or even sue them. Not that GW would ever sue anyone.... hahaha sorry couldn't resist.
MajorTom11 wrote: I'm not really sure what the point is here though? GW not releasing other language translated products for people who speak other languages sucks for them. Of course.
Well, that is the point surely? I suppose this being an English language forum there is a propensity for people to say, "Well, I speak English so I'm fine, LOL! Go and take your complaints elsewhere", but it's impossible not to sympathise. And, it's yet another example (seems to be at least one per month at the moment, with the various fan sites coming under the crosshairs again recently) of the company not giving a flying poo about the fans.
I know a lot of Europeans speak English, but there must be many more who don't or would prefer it in their native tongue anyway - these people will now have a large element of the hobby they enjoy denied to them. And, you have to think rather flippantly, considering the costs of translation and how small that figure must be compared to the turnover of the product. It seems like an incredibly questionable decision from any angle.
I was talking to a fellow wargaming fan in Korea about how ripe the market there would be for a company like GW. The culture, the large disposable income, the propensity towards elements of the wargaming hobby, I wasn't alone in thinking that both that country (and possibly China as well now) were an absolute potential gold mine for anyone willing to make an investment. But, now we get just another example of the company flying in ever smaller circles, following the well-trod path and with absolutely zero forward thinking. It's sad for the fans, it's sad for the industry as a whole, it's sad for GW..
Well, that is the point surely? I suppose this being an English language forum there is a propensity for people to say, "Well, I speak English so I'm fine, LOL! Go and take your complaints elsewhere", but it's impossible not to sympathise. And, it's yet another example (seems to be at least one per month at the moment, with the various fan sites coming under the crosshairs again recently) of the company not giving a flying poo about the fans.
GW are not clamping down on fansites. The largest fansite by far is dakkadakka, and they're fine as long as they clamp down on piracy/IP infringement. GW acted on radio40k because they read out the entire Space Marine codex before release. Imagine if yakface posted the entire points values and rules of the Space Marine codex in 40k General Discussion...clearly gw would be justified in acting on it.
Not that I'd disagree that gw don't care about their fans...though off the top of my head I can't think of any company whatsoever that "cares" about their customers.
xruslanx wrote: Not that I'd disagree that gw don't care about their fans...though off the top of my head I can't think of any company whatsoever that "cares" about their customers.
xruslanx wrote: Not that I'd disagree that gw don't care about their fans...though off the top of my head I can't think of any company whatsoever that "cares" about their customers.
xruslanx wrote: Not that I'd disagree that gw don't care about their fans...though off the top of my head I can't think of any company whatsoever that "cares" about their customers.
xruslanx wrote: GW are not clamping down on fansites. The largest fansite by far is dakkadakka, and they're fine as long as they clamp down on piracy/IP infringement. GW acted on radio40k because they read out the entire Space Marine codex before release. Imagine if yakface posted the entire points values and rules of the Space Marine codex in 40k General Discussion...clearly gw would be justified in acting on it.
Game rules can't be copyrighted. You have every right to read out the entire rules for 40k if you want. GW just feels entitled to demand additional protection for its IP beyond what the law allows, and enforces it with legal threats the average fansite can't afford to fight back against.
How is that relevant? You said nothing about "private companies". You said you know of no companies that care about their customers. I provided you with three examples to the contrary, two of which (GB and MM) I have personal experience with.
Every comment of yours that I've read on Dakka in the last month since I joined have been sarcastic, rude and/or disingenuous. I almost added you to my ignore list despite never having spoken to you (I believe this is the first time), because I got sick of reading your obstructive sarcastic comments derailing the 40K Balance Hammer thread, then you stopped commenting. Are you always this belligerent with people who don't share your opinion?
xruslanx wrote: GW are not clamping down on fansites. The largest fansite by far is dakkadakka, and they're fine as long as they clamp down on piracy/IP infringement. GW acted on radio40k because they read out the entire Space Marine codex before release. Imagine if yakface posted the entire points values and rules of the Space Marine codex in 40k General Discussion...clearly gw would be justified in acting on it.
Game rules can't be copyrighted. You have every right to read out the entire rules for 40k if you want. GW just feels entitled to demand additional protection for its IP beyond what the law allows, and enforces it with legal threats the average fansite can't afford to fight back against.
This is important to emphasize: the applicable US law can be found summarized on the U.S. Copyright Office page;
Spoiler:
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.
If your game includes any written element, such as instructions or directions, the Copyright Office recommends that you apply to register it as a literary work. Doing so will allow you to register all copyrightable parts of the game, including any pictorial elements. When the copyrightable elements of the game consist predominantly of pictorial matter, you should apply to register it as a work of the visual arts.
What Dakka is legally entitled to do is substantially less then what Dakka voluntarily chooses to do.
xruslanx wrote: Not that I'd disagree that gw don't care about their fans...though off the top of my head I can't think of any company whatsoever that "cares" about their customers.
*BWAH!!*
You never said 'Private Company' - you only said 'Company'. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.
Believe it or not, most gaming companies are private companies - they are not the exception, they are the rule. Do not assume that because you cannot find the passage does not mean that it is not true. More likely it reflects on a lack of skill on your part.
Reaper is private.
Blue Moon is private.
Paizo is private - and very glad to stay that way. (Goblin Works may be public, but I do not know.)
Wiz Kids was private, was bought by Topp's - which isn't, and then spun off and is private again.
In part this is the case because the profit margin is so small - little attraction for shareholders, and in part because the kinds of folks that run game companies enjoy retaining control. And a few are private because GW makes such an excellent bad example of what happens when a company is publicly held.
I believe that all the companies founded by ex-GW folks are private - care to guess why? Privateer is. Mantic is. Warlord is.
Even WotC was privately held, until it was purchased by Hasbro (which is both huge and publicly held).
The good part is that the companies remain under inside control - the bad part is not having the strength of a larger company to fall back on.
xruslanx wrote: GW are not clamping down on fansites. The largest fansite by far is dakkadakka, and they're fine as long as they clamp down on piracy/IP infringement. GW acted on radio40k because they read out the entire Space Marine codex before release. Imagine if yakface posted the entire points values and rules of the Space Marine codex in 40k General Discussion...clearly gw would be justified in acting on it.
Game rules can't be copyrighted. You have every right to read out the entire rules for 40k if you want. GW just feels entitled to demand additional protection for its IP beyond what the law allows, and enforces it with legal threats the average fansite can't afford to fight back against.
You're right - my bad, they aren't copyrighted. I would still argue personally that I think wanting to curtail leaks on upcoming products is morally justified.
xruslanx wrote: You're right - my bad, they aren't copyrighted. I would still argue personally that I think wanting to curtail leaks on upcoming products is morally justified.
You're right. GW has every right to attempt to improve their security and prevent their employees from leaking material (and fire anyone who does), refuse to sell to stores that release new products early against their retail contracts, etc. They do not have the moral right to abuse the legal system and demand protection for their flawed business model based entirely on "we can afford to spend more on lawyers than you can". If GW's leak prevention fails and someone gets a copy of the codex early the only thing GW is morally justified in doing when that person publishes the entire rules section is say "oops, too bad for us, we'll try to do better next time".
xruslanx wrote: You're right - my bad, they aren't copyrighted. I would still argue personally that I think wanting to curtail leaks on upcoming products is morally justified.
You're right. GW has every right to attempt to improve their security and prevent their employees from leaking material (and fire anyone who does), refuse to sell to stores that release new products early against their retail contracts, etc. They do not have the moral right to abuse the legal system and demand protection for their flawed business model based entirely on "we can afford to spend more on lawyers than you can". If GW's leak prevention fails and someone gets a copy of the codex early the only thing GW is morally justified in doing when that person publishes the entire rules section is say "oops, too bad for us, we'll try to do better next time".
Don't let him derail the thread like usual, this isn't anything to do with Dakka, 40K Radio, BoW or anything to do with info leaks. This thread is about the increasing amount of published product which is available in English only, let's not forget that!
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I don't think GW would wish to leave or let go of any potential market. I do think they are very interested in cost cutting exercises atm and that reducing anything and everything seen as superfluous or 'fat' will be cut back to the bone. There may well have been a meeting re the boxes, for example, that said that the vast majority of their nonEnglish language nation customers already speak and read English and so taking the time to rename and translate was a waste of revenue.
I don't think this has a dark hidden agenda, I think it's just cost cutting, again.
Basically this. More cost-cutting to stem the tide of their shrinking sales volumes.
It isn't. xruslanx is just moving the goal posts. Best stop talking to him now lest he lead you down a garden path covered in red-herrings and the straw of men.
I rather suspect that GW does not think of it as 'retreating from non-English [speaking] markets' but merely as 'cost saving allocation of personnel and resources'.
Which translates, to my mind, as 'yeah, their retreating' at least in the medium to the long run. They are looking at the immediate savings, while disregarding the less immediate profits that they potentially lose.
Short sighted thinking rather than a deliberate abandonment of a market.
Having thought about it I'm not sure it's that bad an idea from a pure business viewpoint.
Localised codexes are most necessary for younger players whose foreign language skills are weak. As long as GW make sure to get the most popular armies, like SM, out in localised editions, they probably don't need to worry about the more specialist books which would have low sales to younger (and newer) players.
Obviously this still would be a "retreat" from a full service position, and a disappointment to non-native English speaking players. We also remember the retreat from specialist games.
More evidence that GW has become essentially a toy company?
Kilkrazy wrote: Having thought about it I'm not sure it's that bad an idea from a pure business viewpoint.
Localised codexes are most necessary for younger players whose foreign language skills are weak. As long as GW make sure to get the most popular armies, like SM, out in localised editions, they probably don't need to worry about the more specialist books which would have low sales to younger (and newer) players.
Obviously this still would be a "retreat" from a full service position, and a disappointment to non-native English speaking players. We also remember the retreat from specialist games.
More evidence that GW has become essentially a toy company?
But in a shrinking market, denying sales to anyone is a bad idea. There's also the knock-on effect on customer translations; be they formal on just reading in a different language. The rules are hard enough to get clear between players when it's written in their native language. Just think how horrible it'd be to try and have a rules discussion when you're either looking at a home-translated pdf and/or a book in a different language? There will be a lot of sutle meanings that could be missed.
There's also really not that much content in most of these supplements, so I don't think the translating would even run to the thousands per language per book. I'm sure you could outsource the translation to foreign language editors, and have the shop staff proof read them.
I'm sure it makes perfect sense from a short term shareholder/accountant point of view; it saves them a bit of money, but it's going to shrink or at least stagnate non-native markets. We assume most Foreigners can read fluent English to follow rules, but when the rules are already a mess, and your target audience are young teens (who presumably haven't travelled and been exposed to much spoken English), then it's a major hinderence at best. Especially in countries with their own local gaming companies.
In the long term it's a bad idea, especially if the UK economy is weakening and all the money is going to the far east (most of whom have no real interest in reading English).
Kilkrazy wrote: Having thought about it I'm not sure it's that bad an idea from a pure business viewpoint.
Localised codexes are most necessary for younger players whose foreign language skills are weak. As long as GW make sure to get the most popular armies, like SM, out in localised editions, they probably don't need to worry about the more specialist books which would have low sales to younger (and newer) players.
Obviously this still would be a "retreat" from a full service position, and a disappointment to non-native English speaking players. We also remember the retreat from specialist games.
More evidence that GW has become essentially a toy company?
Herzlos wrote: But in a shrinking market, denying sales to anyone is a bad idea.
This. Even if it isn't a complete loss of the foreign market it's just hard to imagine that the cost of translation is so high that GW isn't losing money by giving up those sales. And GW really isn't in a position to be giving up customers right now.
GW probably reckon that 10% of the new young customers might stay with them more than a couple of years, of which maybe 10% might get interested in the "minority" armies that are published only digitally.
In other words the loss of those customers is pretty negligible so it makes sense as a long term strategy.
Obviously I just made up the figures to illustrate a possibility, and it ignores the factor of annoying current veterans who I should have thought are recruiters of newbs into the game.
I rather suspect that GW does not think of it as 'retreating from non-English [speaking] markets' but merely as 'cost saving allocation of personnel and resources'.
Which translates, to my mind, as 'yeah, their retreating' at least in the medium to the long run. They are looking at the immediate savings, while disregarding the less immediate profits that they potentially lose.
Short sighted thinking rather than a deliberate abandonment of a market.
The Auld Grump
That's how I see it. Digi-dexes are probably looking to GW like a cheap, low risk source of revenue. I think GW is strained enough at the moment that it is looking to boost revenue in ways that are extremely low risk. The digi-dexes probably have a very low up front cost, so it doesn't really matter if they sell well or not. If they don't, the company isn't really out anything (other than goodwill). This is not a move made by a company in a comfortable position and I think it is very similar to the rash of cheap game licenses GW has been giving.
MajorTom11 wrote: I'm not really sure what the point is here though? GW not releasing other language translated products for people who speak other languages sucks for them. Of course.
Well, that is the point surely? I suppose this being an English language forum there is a propensity for people to say, "Well, I speak English so I'm fine, LOL! Go and take your complaints elsewhere", but it's impossible not to sympathise. And, it's yet another example (seems to be at least one per month at the moment, with the various fan sites coming under the crosshairs again recently) of the company not giving a flying poo about the fans.
I know a lot of Europeans speak English, but there must be many more who don't or would prefer it in their native tongue anyway - these people will now have a large element of the hobby they enjoy denied to them. And, you have to think rather flippantly, considering the costs of translation and how small that figure must be compared to the turnover of the product. It seems like an incredibly questionable decision from any angle.
I was talking to a fellow wargaming fan in Korea about how ripe the market there would be for a company like GW. The culture, the large disposable income, the propensity towards elements of the wargaming hobby, I wasn't alone in thinking that both that country (and possibly China as well now) were an absolute potential gold mine for anyone willing to make an investment. But, now we get just another example of the company flying in ever smaller circles, following the well-trod path and with absolutely zero forward thinking. It's sad for the fans, it's sad for the industry as a whole, it's sad for GW..
First, thanks for quoting only one line of my post.
Second, I am an anglophone Montrealler in Quebec. Few people here have anywhere near my experience when it comes to having difficulty having access to services and goods in their native language that I do. Believe me, I understand 200% what it is like to feel swept under the rug based on my language and location, and to be ignored while my taxes are collected.
Third, my question remains? What is the point? It's a gakky move to take away things that were formerly offered and essentially tell existing customers you are done with them unless they change the language they prefer to game in. I don't think anyone would rightly say 'hey, you have been gaming in German/whatever up til now and now you can't, isn't that awesome?'. The other side, that GW has come to the conclusion this is in their best interests business wise (right or wrong) also remains. So, agreeing that it sucks, and agreeing they are going to do it anyways, what is really left to go over here?
You can disagree as you will, but do not put my name in a camp with people who are unsympathetic to language issues and the importance of understanding and support for linguistic diversity. I take that as an insult.
The point is the following:
GW somewhat promised that they would never again stop support for an army (like they did for Squats) because of fairness to people owning them.
Now they seem to start dropping support for all markets except UK, anglophone USA and anglophone Canada, which is unfair to all the thousands of gamers there who own thousands of dollars worth of GW products.
There are a handfull of older, well-educated and wealthy people in most countries who would buy English Codices and rulebooks, but not enough to support the game in those countries. In my town the local store sells usually two English Codices/armybooks per release, one of them for me (and I don't play that often). But we have a lot of gamers and a thriving community, including many teens. No way will 40k survive with English only publications.
It is typical GW logic to say: "Hey, we could save 10,000 GBP by dropping the German market!"
But the market itself is not shrinking but growing fast. It is just GW not following standard marketing and advertising strategies that reaps the consequences of their bad management. Not to speak of the pricing. GW's flat revenue (inflation adjusted) is a problem created by GW itself and easy to remedy. Dropping 50% of their markets is NOT the answer.
Kilkrazy wrote: It probably costs several thousand pounds to do a good quality translation and layout, but there is no production cost of physical copies and they charge the same for the digital book as the physical one.
Exactly, several thousand pounds. You might say, "Whoa now! Several thousand pounds for several different languages adds up!" But it don't add up to a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. And if GW has to shave off that kind of expense to make sure it eeks some profit out of the e-dexes...how much is it really making from the e-dexes in the first place?
Then you have to ask if the money you stand to make from the untranslated e-dexes is worth the hit to your goodwill. Games Workshop has obviously decided that it is, and it follows that GW feels that it needs to make an extra 10-15 grand off of every e-dex, and is spinning those lumps of cheap, recirculated crap out every month. What does that communicate about the health of the company?
To me, that shows a company that is looking around wildly for any scrap of IP to squeeze some profit out of. It looks like a snazzy idea someone cooked up to take work that was pretty much already done, spend a little effort to throw a few pages of new content in, utilize salaried employees to do the layout, and throw it up for download as quickly as possible. These things are in the same vein as GW lowering its standards and licensing whatever IP it can to whatever software developer is willing to spit out a tablet game. These licences are cheap, and GW risks diluting the value of the IP with a series of crappy, poorly-received games. High risk, low profit. That is not a move made by a company that can afford to turn away a few thousand dollars to maintain the integrity of its most valuable asset.
Again, GW is cannibalizing itself. GW already ate its employees, and already ate its decent retail locations. GW ate the good stuff already. It ate the horses and dogs. GW is down to eating its boots to survive, and when those are done, GW management is going to be eyeing each other with hungry stares...Hell, they already devoured Gill, but she was dying from an infected wound anyhow...so they didn't kill her so much as, you know...eat her.
MajorTom11 wrote: I'm not really sure what the point is here though? GW not releasing other language translated products for people who speak other languages sucks for them. Of course.
Well, that is the point surely? I suppose this being an English language forum there is a propensity for people to say, "Well, I speak English so I'm fine, LOL! Go and take your complaints elsewhere", but it's impossible not to sympathise. And, it's yet another example (seems to be at least one per month at the moment, with the various fan sites coming under the crosshairs again recently) of the company not giving a flying poo about the fans.
I know a lot of Europeans speak English, but there must be many more who don't or would prefer it in their native tongue anyway - these people will now have a large element of the hobby they enjoy denied to them. And, you have to think rather flippantly, considering the costs of translation and how small that figure must be compared to the turnover of the product. It seems like an incredibly questionable decision from any angle.
I was talking to a fellow wargaming fan in Korea about how ripe the market there would be for a company like GW. The culture, the large disposable income, the propensity towards elements of the wargaming hobby, I wasn't alone in thinking that both that country (and possibly China as well now) were an absolute potential gold mine for anyone willing to make an investment. But, now we get just another example of the company flying in ever smaller circles, following the well-trod path and with absolutely zero forward thinking. It's sad for the fans, it's sad for the industry as a whole, it's sad for GW..
First, thanks for quoting only one line of my post.
Second, I am an anglophone Montrealler in Quebec. Few people here have anywhere near my experience when it comes to having difficulty having access to services and goods in their native language that I do. Believe me, I understand 200% what it is like to feel swept under the rug based on my language and location, and to be ignored while my taxes are collected.
Third, my question remains? What is the point? It's a gakky move to take away things that were formerly offered and essentially tell existing customers you are done with them unless they change the language they prefer to game in. I don't think anyone would rightly say 'hey, you have been gaming in German/whatever up til now and now you can't, isn't that awesome?'. The other side, that GW has come to the conclusion this is in their best interests business wise (right or wrong) also remains. So, agreeing that it sucks, and agreeing they are going to do it anyways, what is really left to go over here?
You can disagree as you will, but do not put my name in a camp with people who are unsympathetic to language issues and the importance of understanding and support for linguistic diversity. I take that as an insult.
The point is that GW is running away a market- SEVERAL markets, and it is honestly looking like they either - Don't know what they are doing, or are doing it purposely.
WHY BOTHER? is to outright fall back from my usual stance of being spiteful of their company and pointing out the blatantly obvious. THE HHHOBBY is too damn expensive.
Between jacking the prices to obviously insane listings, to crapping all over the support structure, fanbase, and overall meta market of the game industry, GW is pretty much abdicating itself as a company. Public, Private, etc, it honestly doesn't matter at this point.
There has been talk that Kirby is using the company to pad his nest egg, with the stuff like this going on, the company will not survive the crush of the economy if they do not change their ways.
Foreign markets, in particular GERMAN market, and ASIA would be a very good place for them to get it in gear and make themselves some money, But with the past years experience from the Aussie market, WE are all collectively seeing a company going into remission and either not exactly knowing what they are doing, or doing it so badly that they honestly believe, such as you seem to show that they are the cats meow and don't need to make any cash flow.
Once again, I point to the Games-day photos, the market of OTHER companies latterly slaughtering them in sales, and the ever-present but undisguised way in which they are pawning off their licensed stuff.
Now obvious might think obvious, but when your watching it from the sidelines, all you can say is we've seen this show before.
Something that baffles me on the subject of translations is that GW can't claim they didn't have the money to do the translations in-house or contracted. How much cash did they disburse as stock dividends? ~GBP350,000 IIRC? That could have paid for a lot more than just the translations that would sell better in non-english speaking regions.
Lol, I agree 100% with you guys, but now what? The same thing is being repeated ad nauseum, most are in firm agreement .... So, is 'the point' to repeat a set of given facts no one really contends with? If so, that has been accomplished very well already. If the 'point' is in fact to figure out a course of action on what to do about it, there doesn't seem to be a ton of that happening.
If all we are interested in in #1 then there isn't much left to say. If it is #2, then let's focus a bit more in that direction. What options do these dropped markets have?
Just to throw this in, english tends to be the generic accepted language in europe. When i lived in spain and met people from other countrys we all spoke in english as a middle ground. Maybe this is a factor? I don't know. American television has also helped spread english as a widely used language.
MajorTom11 wrote: Lol, I agree 100% with you guys, but now what? The same thing is being repeated ad nauseum, most are in firm agreement .... So, is 'the point' to repeat a set of given facts no one really contends with? If so, that has been accomplished very well already. If the 'point' is in fact to figure out a course of action on what to do about it, there doesn't seem to be a ton of that happening.
If all we are interested in in #1 then there isn't much left to say. If it is #2, then let's focus a bit more in that direction. What options do these dropped markets have?
If I look around in my vicinity, what people who aren't a) newcomers or b) absolute fanatics do is either switching to older, abandoned GW games and earlier editions of Fantasy and 40k or exploring completely different games.
Either way, of all the players I know (meaning having a talk with them at least on a semi-regular base), GW has lost almost 50% as customers in the past three years. Until very recently, the main points of complaint were prices and the continuous "upscaling" of the games (horde formations, flyers, 40k allies) - now, the "English only" publications joined the fray. In Vienna at least, they couldn't lose their regular customers (by which I mean people who stay customers for more than two years) faster if they tried. Quite impressive, in a way.
EDIT:
More anecdotal evidence: My local FLGS buys used models. In good condition, you would get roughly half the retail price. This year they cut the service except for the absolute top-tier armies, as the rest simply won't sell anymore.
1.) This trend is not yet obvious to everyone. My first thread in news&rumours http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/549510.page was closed because the mod deemed it not worthy for a news-thread. I started a second thread here, now a few people seem to follow my view, that this is indeed not just another crazy GW hater thread by a hysteric or coincidence but a hidden trend. So raising awareness about this issue is one important factor to organise restistance.
Fun fact: Last week I talked to a Forge World guy from UK, and he wasn't aware of all new GW boxes since SM release having only English (and French) names on it. He was really surprised and wanted to talk to his Nottingham colleagues about that. I know that GW Germany also expressed their concern.
2.) Reduced support for non-English markets is something, that not only affects the customers in those countries, but also eventually the GW staff there. First it will hit the retail staff that will have more and more difficulties to meet the sales targets to keep their jobs/shops. Finally it will meet the HQ staff in each non-English country. So GW's aggressive shrinking policy will cost jobs of people not responsible for the absurd mistakes by higher management in Nottingham. GW, being a strict streamlined yes-company with no feedback allowed, makes it difficult for staff to express their concern, but fear for their jobs will eventually motivate them to try. This is something we should support.
3.) Until then, it means for us customers: Learn English well enough to understand 100 pages of rules, get a well paid job, buy a new iPad every 2 years (the non-exchangeable rechargeable batteries only hold that long). And make sure that your friends also learn English, get well paid jobs and buy iPads every 2 years. Or start Infinity or the upcoming AvP game
I think Weeble said it best when describing how GW is cannabilizing itself. They've closed down stores, they've gone to one-man stores, they've dropped the Specialist Games range, they're making more digital releases for direct profit, they're licensing IPs out left and right, pulling out of foreign markets (apparently, they decided it costs more to support those markets than the money they get from those markers), etc.
They've been so focused for years on keeping their financials stable for the sake of looking good to the investors. Either the executives (Kirby et al) are just milking the company for every easy paycheck they can get before it all falls apart, or they have some other plan.
Honestly, I do not believe any true solution to GW's situation can involve GW remaining an independent entity. They need to be bought out by a larger company that has the money to invest into turning GW around and making them the industry leader they used to be.
i actually dont mind for gw to only sell english products i speak dutch and i cant read french or german so if i go to a tournament and i play vs a german or a frenchy they usualy pull a fast one on me becouse i cant contradict them bcouse of the foreign language of there codex while im stuck whit a english codex.
odin wrote: i actually dont mind for gw to only sell english products i speak dutch and i cant read french or german so if i go to a tournament and i play vs a german or a frenchy they usualy pull a fast one on me becouse i cant contradict them bcouse of the foreign language of there codex while im stuck whit a english codex.
I have run into enough English speaking players that are using English language rulebooks deliberately mess the rules for their advantage to say that is going to happen anyway - part of the reason that I greatly prefer Kings of War.
Cutting off a market is seldom a good idea - and can be seen as admission that GW is in a long decline.
I remember when they trumpeted their first foreign language translations - French and German, as it happens.
Being glad that they are abandoning those markets because it will now give you the edge in tournaments... seems like another good reason to get out of the tournament circuit.
Back on topic -
One bit of collateral effect that GW likely did not think of is that this will help their competitors - if they do not have Warhammer then the French and the Germans, the Italians and the Dutch will all turn to or create their own rule sets, filling the space that GW is leaving in the equation.
The good thing is that they won't have to worry about people buying third party parts for any of their games, since folks won't be playing their games....
I wonder how long before a German or French Kings of War is created, to help fill in that space? (The space will not be filled by a single game...but it will be filled.)
Or alternatively, the playing field is now levelled, and other smaller companies who perhaps genuinely don't have the resources to provide multi-lingual support, are now just as attractive to play for non-English speakers?
Privateer Press: Warmachine and Hordes have German rules and cards.
Infinity rules are available in German.
X-Wings has German rules.
Godslayer has German rules (now).
Dropzone has a small leaflet with German rules.
The FoW starter box includes a so called German version, but it is a babelfish translation with no feedback by a native speaker and often incomprehensible.
Malifaux is English only with only EU distributor in UK. They announced to call German shops in English, whether they have an idea how to imporve sales in Germany. Guess Dystopian Wars English only.
Warlord Games all English.
Kroothawk wrote: Privateer Press: Warmachine and Hordes have German rules and cards.
Infinity rules are available in German.
X-Wings has German rules.
Godslayer has German rules (now).
Dropzone has a small leaflet with German rules.
The FoW starter box includes a so called German version, but it is a babelfish translation with no feedback by a native speaker and often incomprehensible.
Malifaux is English only with only EU distributor in UK. They announced to call German shops in English, whether they have an idea how to imporve sales in Germany. Guess Dystopian Wars English only.
Warlord Games all English.
Don't forget Mantic, they have German translations on their website and sell a German retail box of Dreadball.
odin wrote: i actually dont mind for gw to only sell english products i speak dutch and i cant read french or german so if i go to a tournament and i play vs a german or a frenchy they usualy pull a fast one on me becouse i cant contradict them bcouse of the foreign language of there codex while im stuck whit a english codex.
I have run into enough English speaking players that are using English language rulebooks deliberately mess the rules for their advantage to say that is going to happen anyway - part of the reason that I greatly prefer Kings of War.
Cutting off a market is seldom a good idea - and can be seen as admission that GW is in a long decline.
I remember when they trumpeted their first foreign language translations - French and German, as it happens.
Being glad that they are abandoning those markets because it will now give you the edge in tournaments... seems like another good reason to get out of the tournament circuit.
*SNIP*
The Auld Grump
I need to clarify that I did not realize that odin is a nonnative English speaker himself - this changes most of what my argument in that post was based on, though I do feel that limiting the market is a poor decision.
odin wrote: i actually dont mind for gw to only sell english products i speak dutch and i cant read french or german so if i go to a tournament and i play vs a german or a frenchy they usualy pull a fast one on me becouse i cant contradict them bcouse of the foreign language of there codex while im stuck whit a english codex.
With every Magic: The Gathering release, WotC publishes all of their cards in 10 different languages and their translation is precise enough that you can show up at any sanctioned event with a card in any language and never have a rules issue because they all say the same thing in game terms. Furthermore, they support multi-language areas through their product distribution. Any local store here can order in starters and booster boxes in any language available. It's also becoming more and more vogue for collectors to get their favorite cards in different languages.
There were Hasbro investor presentations that people posted here on Dakka Dakka that showed that sales volume for Magic has tripled over the last five years with the majority of the growth coming from non-English speaking countries.
WotC knows what they are doing in that their game design is tight enough that you can express it in ten different languages and never have a rules issue result, their distribution allows anyone to get any language product they offer and they saw the real growth potential in foreign markets and have been aggressively pursuing them.
GW? The only thing they seem to know how to do is cut services, cut staff and raise prices to keep revenue flat while volume falls. And if they can save some money my not paying for translation, they'll do it regardless of the impact on sales in the future.
It's a clear removal of what they believe is 'fat' although I'd argue it's muscle mass and the whole body will suffer for it as other muscles and tendons in the company will be forced to work harder to compensate for yet more surgery...
They won't want to lose those markets, but are trying to, yet again, cut costs whilst remaining in those markets, by yet more centralizing, or as I like to call it, shrinking.
I posted on my local GW Facebook page asking if their shop is in any danger, but I haven't gotten a response. I'm not sure whether or not I should expect one...
Something else: White Dwarf is no longer, and the new magazines (WD Weekly and Warhammer Visions) will not be published in Spain and will not be translated to Spanish. I think they are English-only too.
White Dwarf was first published in Spain in 1993. Over 20 years.
Bad advertising for the fluency of English in the Netherlands. I think Dennis Ernst needs some more schooling (EDIT: It seems that Dennis Ernst is the manager of GW South Amsterdam.... )
I didn't know the shop closed, this must be the Rokin one. Luckily for Dennis and Ernst GW opens two new shops in Amsterdam West AND south. Strange tactics, guess the Rokin one became too expensive rent-wise (although I believe Rozengracht isn't cheap either, let alone paying rent for two shops).
Back on topic; I can understand Kroothawk's problem. French and Germans aren't as fluent in English as most Scandinavian, Dutch and Belgian people. I think they deserve their translated versions while everything gets translated there on tv for instance, while in Holland the foreign tv shows are in their original language with Dutch subtitles.
Although children shows get translated much more nowadays in Dutch, which makes the learning of foreign languages suffer with the youth though. A bad development but that is another topic.
Eventually somehow GW will not only go 'english only' but it will become HQ'd in the US...
...sure they can do 2 HQs as permitted by normal force org charts... But then there'll be some loop hole where they'll have two US HQs plus they'll claim the game was only for 1999 pts so no double force org... so the extra HQs gotta go... and somehow it'll be total US with no UK allies (who plays w/ allies?!)...
But that's not all...
Eventually Mattel or Hasbro or Subway will eat up GW and revamp their stuff into some 'Made in 'murica!' type thing that'll use yucky gross prepaints in boosters sold at Target.
...and what of the old GW prime or alpha or uk or whatever? They're going to all get into Warmahordes... see the broken combos... then they'll resort to just start playing Settlers of Catan using Forgeworld materials like Zone Mortalis and Renegade Guardsmen.
...Except Jervis... he'll know better and get out of the whole tabletop thing and start a food truck with a couple of the codex writers.
Oh and no one will tell the black library authors... they'll continue to write stuff for the GW stuff and won't even bat an eye when all of a sudden execs want stories of magical ponies with laser swords.
In all seriousness though...
I don't like the direction that GW seems to be taking... its like they're trying to super ultra hardcore mainstream their stuff.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Hold on, they aren't translating the rule books in languages other than English? That can't be right, that'll be corporate suicide.
Most still are, but the fraction of non-translated books increases, a.o.all digital releases.
Fun fact: GW lets the German LOTR rules for Elves, Dwarfs, Hobbits, Easterlings, Harad, Khand and Isengard go out of print, with no plans for a reprint. The new and only available Hobbit rulebook does not include those stats. So no kid can play the game even if he wanted, unless he can read English.
Warhammer Visions (the "monthly WD) will be pics with English/French/German subtitles, so no more subscribable mag with content in any langage anymore, just pics printed in a global edition.
frozenwastes wrote: Good call on this Kroot. You noticed the packaging changes and the translation team changes and now GW is closing their HQs and moving them to the UK.
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2.) Reduced support for non-English markets is something, that not only affects the customers in those countries, but also eventually the GW staff there. First it will hit the retail staff that will have more and more difficulties to meet the sales targets to keep their jobs/shops. Finally it will meet the HQ staff in each non-English country. So GW's aggressive shrinking policy will cost jobs of people not responsible for the absurd mistakes by higher management in Nottingham. GW, being a strict streamlined yes-company with no feedback allowed, makes it difficult for staff to express their concern, but fear for their jobs will eventually motivate them to try. This is something we should support.
But I admit, it happened quicker than I thought, because other bad business decisions accelerated this process.
You can say it "doesn't make sense" from a business standpoint, but to claim this is to not understand GW.
Every decision they've made for the last 6-7 years has been a stalling tactics, particularly since 2010 when prices hit the point of no absurdity. So they'll cut x, combine y, and scheme around with the numbers of z all to produce a positive financial report for the shareholders. That all what GW is manipulation of products for reports, and while every company obviously tries to make a profit GW does it with a shortsightedness and recklessness with no sustainability. So GW will likely cut the non-English market despite it not being economically wise, because it could provide a temporary boost to a future financial report.
Manipulating the numbers for the next report they'll come up with a new plan. Nothing is about growing a business model, nevermind a sustainable one.
You can say it "doesn't make sense" from a business standpoint, but to claim this is to not understand GW.
Every decision they've made for the last 6-7 years has been a stalling tactics, particularly since 2010 when prices hit the point of no absurdity. So they'll cut x, combine y, and scheme around with the numbers of z all to produce a positive financial report for the shareholders. That all what GW is manipulation of products for reports, and while every company obviously tries to make a profit GW does it with a shortsightedness and recklessness with no sustainability. So GW will likely cut the non-English market despite it not being economically wise, because it could provide a temporary boost to a future financial report.
Manipulating the numbers for the next report they'll come up with a new plan. Nothing is about growing a business model, nevermind a sustainable one.
If any of that is true they don't have much time left. There isn't much more to cut and very few remaining tricks to cook the books with. We'd be looking at Fantasy and Lotr/Hobbit being gone entirely within two years and 40K (and the company as a whole) in 10 the maximum. Eventually people will talk about GW's era as the one when miniature gaming was really popular worldwide, and how the company responsible for that popularity failed to adapt with the times of internet, social medias and video gaming.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I wonder if they would stop translating to Japanese? that would be a big loss
AFAIK there is one person in Nottingham doing all Japanese translations.
But with everything else cut to the bones, there is noone left to fire for the next report except Nottingham HQ staff.
Don't get me started with the Spanish editions, people complained about Corvus Belli's translations to English but were unaware if GW's ones to Spanish.
A book fair , wrote : Tears !
So even if you have read any one paragraph ;
Memory and thought linked from our childhood ;
Righteous doing nagkauban old , not yet understand .
Love , you think , the thought , in my heart !
Pinuso support , in mind , so you do not makuro .
Approach to hold pagsuyo'y vanishing ;
Shun you and with grief , mourning the affection !
The Love dakila'y disposition hold ,
If lightning seems to draw on the cheek of darkness .
The kiss - consuming intensity , sometimes only nahalikan ,
And if the river floods , remember back or once only.
Love when no coward is peaceful flowing ,
No falls , no flood , no tears , no sorrow !
The Love inaanod brave heart ,
As honor , wisdom yama't drowning in dear !
Love listening node inquired further studied ,
Question in more love , more visible light ,
But when Kindle world is forgotten as ---
That , so the love , emotion back or heart only !
When the recessive ikaw'y sakuna't risk
Really bright and full your mind :
Fear still love you , love you more :
The love , as you possess pit heaven !
Love has eyes, Love is not blind ;
The wise love , every wound flowers :
Love is mercenary and disposition of the spouses;
Or do anything, or give you all !
" I do not write and has been watchful Mom ! "
Expect, my comrade , you have not loved !
But when you write over any of the pit ,
You loved him more than her life !
You young love desire,
Tiger got rolling lamp ,
If ye love that , look for the risk ,
And wing part is burned in love !
It'd be funny if GW actually used Google translate.
And on the last line, how did a tiger get in there? Paruparo means butterfly and tiger in Tagalog is.... "tigre". So WTF Google translate.
I don't think GW are retreating out of non-English markets. They're certainly shrinking their corporate side of things and withdrawing their business aspects towards England, but the market is the same.
Kroothawk wrote: So you think the digital market is also for non-English speakers, as long as they buy products they can't read
They are merly focusing on what they think will bring in the largest profit while cutting costs and translators cost money, for GW it makes perfect sense, but then consider this GW consider throwing S&D letters at online fans whom are providing GW free advertisment and hype their products as a good idea, aswell making the hobby so expensive that young folks cant even afford a starting army.
GW has never really been present in Denmark. There have only ever been one official store here, and it is located in the capital, and I have never seen it. The hobby is doing just fine without their official involvement, so that might be something they are counting on is the case in other countries as well.
I was at a GW in Tokyo at Christmas time. They are actually expanding there and just opened a new store. Maybe it's just that Japanese people are already keen on this sort of thing (eg: Gunpla).
Someone may have already noted that it's very difficult to translate a rules system that relies so greatly on intricate wordings in the English language. In japan they only have about 5 40k armies because it takes so long to translate the codex's.
Bonde wrote: GW has never really been present in Denmark. There have only ever been one official store here, and it is located in the capital, and I have never seen it. The hobby is doing just fine without their official involvement, so that might be something they are counting on is the case in other countries as well.
Maybe you Danish dynamite people are a bit special?
Low_K wrote: Bad advertising for the fluency of English in the Netherlands. I think Dennis Ernst needs some more schooling (EDIT: It seems that Dennis Ernst is the manager of GW South Amsterdam.... )
I didn't know the shop closed, this must be the Rokin one. Luckily for Dennis and Ernst GW opens two new shops in Amsterdam West AND south. Strange tactics, guess the Rokin one became too expensive rent-wise (although I believe Rozengracht isn't cheap either, let alone paying rent for two shops).
Yeah, when the Rokin maintenance was done the rent become way too high, the building also was in a fairly dire state of repairs. I'm sure the staff is glad to have relocated.
Kroothawk wrote: Reduced support for non-English markets is something, that not only affects the customers in those countries, but also eventually the GW staff there. First it will hit the retail staff that will have more and more difficulties to meet the sales targets to keep their jobs/shops. Finally it will meet the HQ staff in each non-English country. So GW's aggressive shrinking policy will cost jobs of people not responsible for the absurd mistakes by higher management in Nottingham. GW, being a strict streamlined yes-company with no feedback allowed, makes it difficult for staff to express their concern, but fear for their jobs will eventually motivate them to try. This is something we should support.
This, there are issues in the Dutch part of GW where at least some of the retail staff have difficulties with the management in England. The North European section (Flanders, Netherlands, Nordic countries and iirc Poland) already reports directly to the UKHQ. From what I have heard training methods don't really carry over well due to cultural differences and middle management has little to offer (short of threats) in terms of support when sales do not meet their expectations.
From my local GW manager I heard that the school program flopped abroad because the management in England assumed Warhammer had the same brand awareness on the continent and so they didn't allocate any advertising budget. School staff weren't very interested and in general expect toys and merchandise to be sent as free promo material. Nottingham in turn freaked out at the concept of free stuff.
I'm not sure if a single European HQ is very practical if it has to service several different markets, particularly if located in a provincial town in the Midlands.
GW always had a tendency to force its specific cultural approach on other HQs led by straw puppets (e.g. USA and Germany, the latter led by a Belgian). Didn't work very good. Now this clash of cultural approaches will worsen with GW retracting to its bunker. Which in turn will lead to even more sinking sales. Too bad that the people responsible for all this are in a position to fire everybody else.
Kavish wrote: IIRC it's Space Marines, Necron's, Eldar, Tau, and Chaos Space Marines.
How did they explain the alien miniatures in the 4th edition, the green miniatures in the last and the hooded miniatures in the present starter box then?
Kavish wrote: IIRC it's Space Marines, Necron's, Eldar, Tau, and Chaos Space Marines.
How did they explain the alien miniatures in the 4th edition, the green miniatures in the last and the hooded miniatures in the present starter box then?
Freebies to allow you to learn the rules as a springboard into the H-H-H-obby of Buying (TM) one of the 5 armies they offer translations for?
Kavish wrote: IIRC it's Space Marines, Necron's, Eldar, Tau, and Chaos Space Marines.
How did they explain the alien miniatures in the 4th edition, the green miniatures in the last and the hooded miniatures in the present starter box then?
The green ones were presented as giant intelligent warlike fungi that create technology by believing in it, left over from a galactic war billions of years ago.
From GW's current release (or preorder) list, the following are English only:
Death from the Skies, Farsight, Black Legion, special edition main rulebook, all of the limited editions, and strangely enough Space Marines.
Non-special edition rulebook, Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Orks, Space Wolves, Tau, and Tyranids all have Japanese codex releases.
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