Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.
So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?
Perhaps in some respects. I would also note though, that while the number of wargamers in the US is most likely higher (just due to the size you mention) it may FEEL more dispersed just because of the distances involved. Once you account for this dispersion, it makes gaming feel less mainstream.
I think it's just always been more popular historically going back decades. Many early wargames came from the UK. It is similar to how Germany has always been the fatherland for board games.
I think you're jumping to conclusions based off anecdotal, and indeed online anecdotal, evidence. I would be very surprised if there are more wargamers in the UK total than in the USA. While it is possible that as a percentage of the population it is more popular, without some solid statistics (perhaps from sales data) it would be speculation and nothing more.
I certainly would not call it a mainstream hobby here, although with it being a smaller population (especially here in Scotland where there's only 4.6million or so of us), knowledge of its existence is perhaps more common.
Kyrolon wrote: Perhaps in some respects. I would also note though, that while the number of wargamers in the US is most likely higher (just due to the size you mention) it may FEEL more dispersed just because of the distances involved. Once you account for this dispersion, it makes gaming feel less mainstream.
Population density is a large part of it really.
The UK is 243,610 square KM. Density of 255.6 per square KM.
The US is 9,826,000 square KM. Density of 34.2 per square KM.
For wargaming to really take off, it needs a large population in a small area. There's probably more gamers in the US than in the UK, but they are spread out over 40 times as much area, The more density means bigger clubs, better community and overall better gaming environment.
Kyrolon wrote: Perhaps in some respects. I would also note though, that while the number of wargamers in the US is most likely higher (just due to the size you mention) it may FEEL more dispersed just because of the distances involved. Once you account for this dispersion, it makes gaming feel less mainstream.
Well, GW may not be the entire hobby, as well as being UK biased, but their numbers are pretty clear.
30.9 Million Revenue UK alone
39.4 Million Revenue the entire rest of Europe (Germany, France, Spain, Poland all have pretty active hobby scenes)
36.6 Million North America (incl. Canada).
Divide that by population, and UK comes out far ahead of anything else. (USA ~313 Million vs. UK ~ 62 Million?... not even counting Canada)
Notably, Australia is pretty mad too, despite all their mistreatment from GW. With only about 1/3rd of the UK population (~22 Million?) they make about 1/3rd of GW's UK revenue. So I don't think population density is it. Australia has lots of empty space, but they game as much as UK-people do.
Population density and in GW's case store saturation.
In the UK there are literally hundreds of stores and in populated areas it's my understanding that there's a store in just about every large area that means that wargaming is a far more visable venture. Meawhile in the US there are far fewer stores, which additionally suffer from being a mx of independant comic and game stores that only focuses a portion of their attention and sales to wargaming.
IL for example only has 12 GW locations (and around 40-50 independants) yet its spread across a vastly larger area than the UK. (IL is also one of the largest sales bases for GW)
The Uk likely outnumbers the IL store count by several hundred, which means that their exporse level to people on the whole is much greater, chances are much higher that in the UK the average teenager is much more familiar with GW's product range than teenagers in the US. While it's become much more widespread over the last two decades gaming and comics are still a bit of a smaller subculture within the US.
In order for a wargaming group to take root you need a centralized location, which if you are in the UK is typically in your immediate area or at most the next town over. Due to the much greater distances that players are spread over in the US you often have people who needs to travel a good distance to get to a games/comics store let alone one that specializes in GW or other wargamming. In most cases apathy wins over if people can't play it locally they won't bother with a 40-60minute drive and will instead seek out something else more local ofr they do their gaming online via xbox or PS.
In my area the closest gaming store where I can buy GW and PP material in-person is 30 miles away. And being in Western Michigan, the closest GW store (and the only one in the entire state) is in the Detroit area, which would be a 6-hour round trip for me. Population density has a TON to do with it.
Illinois here, I'm actually shocked to learn there are 12 GWs here :p I'm in the southern bit (y'all?), and while my small town has a couple of little stores they both do primarily magic and maybe comic books (one is a group of friends, the other is some angry old man who is in business for reasons I cannot fathom, neither is of any use). So, I can drive an hour west to get to a pretty cool game store (though I haven't had a chance to both go AND play in years and years), or 60-75 minutes south for a store that I generally favor less. I think the closest GW is at least a couple of hours away, but fantasy/40k aren't my current interests anyway.
I randomly got into the hobby via a 3rd ed 40k starter box, and somehow through the years I've clung to my interest on and off, though motivation has been scarce. I would love to have this UK situation of tons of people to play with locally. I had one buddy who was about as interested as me, but that is less the case now and these forums are basically my only hobby outlet. I've given up trying to get people into the hobby (mostly GW, I may talk someone into infinity, its *almost* affordable), due to lack of interest and cost.
A shift to painting is all that has me doing this instead of re-subbing my wow account (or similar).
I used to have my choice of three hobby stores in the area, but two of them died off over the years and years since I have been into 40K. There are just lots of places that wargaming is underrepresented in the US. The store I can buy PP and GW models in person from is actually a Rider's Hobby shop, with a section for each company. When I take a trip into places like Chicago, I am on cloud nine, and can spend three hours in a hobby shop there just browsing.
Most of my minis come from GW direct online or The Warstore/Miniature Market as I am really stuck for lack of choice.
So I don't think population density is it. Australia has lots of empty space, but they game as much as UK-people do.
Yeah we have heaps of empty space, but really the vast majority of people live on a stretch of coast (and a bit inland from that) a couple of thousand KM long. So that probably helps keep us pretty condensed for things like gaming.
I mean, according to wiki we have 23,183,942 people all up in the country. In the three capitol cities on that coast (1700km from the furthest north to the furthest south, so not too far) we have 11,063,568 people, so half of our population, with probably another third or something in and around those cities.
You also have to take into account other activities.
Depending on location, you have Football (American), Soccer, Baseball, skiing, ocean activities (surfing/swimming/), camping activities (camping, RVing, fishing, hunting, hiking), Automotive hobbies (car racing, custom car shows, cruising)...the list goes on that compete for time and attention. Add to it a climate more mild than England and that means people wanting to do more outdoor activities. The thought of spending a gorgeous summer day inside a dark smelly room pushing plastic toys around just never crosses most people imaginations.
To be honest, we have all those activities too, (even American football!). I don't think that really has anything to do with how much folk are into wargames. I hike, camp, mountain bike, play tennis, and occasionally take my sports car for a thrash around the highlands, and none of these things are a factor in why I play wargames. Maybe impacts why I play wargames with a lot of grey plastic, but that's about it.
The "other activities" explanation doesn't make any sense. MTG started in the US and is still huge here, and it should suffer just as much from things like football.
IMO it's probably just a random fact of history. For a long time (non-historical) wargaming meant GW, and GW is a UK-based company without much US presence. They probably had enough presence in the US market to prevent a rival from establishing themselves as the dominant US game, but not enough stores to get random people to come in and buy stuff. And the trend continues, the population density in the UK lets GW put a store in high-traffic retail areas, which means lots of kids (who may or may not ever play the game) buying space marines. In the US, on the other hand, GW stores are usually in mostly-abandoned strip malls instead of high-traffic locations so GW only attracts the dedicated customers who are interested enough to go out and find a store.
If GW had started in the US or stopped being incompetent long enough to realize that the US isn't the UK and build a proper sales strategy GW games could probably be a lot more popular here.
AegisGrimm wrote: In my area the closest gaming store where I can buy GW and PP material in-person is 30 miles away. And being in Western Michigan, the closest GW store (and the only one in the entire state) is in the Detroit area, which would be a 6-hour round trip for me. Population density has a TON to do with it.
Not exclusively. When I was growing up the nearest shop that stocked wargames (mostly GW at the time, nothing at all now) was 65 miles away and the nearest GW was about 200. That didn't stop the formation of a (very) small gaming club at my school.
Wargames Illustrated ran an article on this subject a couple of years ago and IIRC it basically boils down to the UK having a much stronger history of wargaming than the US. Its not just GW games either, the figures that WI came up with showed approximately equal numbers of wargamers in the UK and US.
Its possible that GW in particular is seen as more mainstream in the UK due to its shops but at the same time it is also seen as a hobby for children and tragically geeky men if its references in popular culture are anything to go by.
Palindrome wrote: Not exclusively. When I was growing up the nearest shop that stocked wargames (mostly GW at the time, nothing at all now) was 65 miles away and the nearest GW was about 200. That didn't stop the formation of a (very) small gaming club at my school.
Yeah, but the key word here is "small". You're always going to have a non-zero number of people interested in the hobby (and determined enough to overcome obstacles in buying stuff), but population density makes a huge difference in how big that group is.
Yeah, but the key word here is "small". You're always going to have a non-zero number of people interested in the hobby (and determined enough to overcome obstacles in buying stuff), but population density makes a huge difference in how big that group is.
Perhaps but in my case the available population of around 1000 gave a group with 6 members. Population density does help of course but its not a vital factor.
The UK is seething with sporting and cultural activities outside wargaming. I really don't think it is a factor.
I also think population density is not a major factor. The urbanisation rate of the USA is 82%. The rate of the UK is 79%. Very similar, though it may be a factor that travel distance in the UK are shorter than the USA, meaning that the 21% rural population in the UK are much closer to places they could find wargame facilities.
However we are only guessing that the GW figures represent the number of wargamers in each country.
One thing also that is different between the UK/Aus and US wargaming scenes is the location gaming takes place. In the UK and Oz there is a preponderance of independent clubs that meet in church halls and above pubs. It appears that this doesn't occur very often in the US where the norm is for people to be very dependent on commercial stores.
We could talk all day as to why this might be - maybe there's something in the much more commercial-orientated society in the US cf the UK, or perhaps it has something to do with dispersal of population, or price and availability of suitable space. Who knows?
I do know that in the UK it is relatively easy to find a group of like-minded individuals within a short distance, and that independent clubs are a much more low-intensity way of learning to game - no pressure to buy from a store owner, "any game goes", lots time and space for kids, flexibility of hours, etc. In fact I took my 2 boys (ages 10 and 12) to a
I'm not dissing stores - they are an essential and well-loved part of the scene, and of course they provide a lot of much-loved gaming. But I do know that personally, given the choice, I'd rather play in an independent club over a store any day. In fact if the only gaming available to me was in a store, I might have packed up the hobby decades ago. And I suspect that there may be many folks in the US/Canada that would be happy to play in a club environment, were one available to them, who don't fancy the more "high intensity" environment of a commercial store.
Palindrome wrote: Perhaps but in my case the available population of around 1000 gave a group with 6 members. Population density does help of course but its not a vital factor.
But that's only 1000 people in a single school, with no store nearby to draw new customers. Compare that to a town where all 20,000 people walk by the local GW store every day. Even if the percentage of people who are interested at all in wargames isn't any higher a lot more of them will be aware of the game, and there will be a lot of kids who beg their parents for space marines and contribute to GW's sales numbers without ever playing the game.
I don't know. I am massive comic nerd (I work in a comic shop here in the UK) and I often wonder why comics aren't as popular here.
It's a cultural thing. I remember at school at lunch playing 'army' and at christmas getting model planes and cars to build, just like my Dad did as a kid. I think possibly it's a generational thing. In the city I live in (one of the smallest cities in England) we have 1 independent model store (which sells GW stuff), 1 chain model store (which sells GW stuff) and 1 GW and then just on the edge of town one Independent gaming store that sells everything. Oh and then the comic store I work in has a small GW range. That's a lot of GW vendors all within walking distance of my house.
There is a gaming club every night of the week, in some cases multiple (on a Thursday evening there are 3 including the GW one). I think maybe it's just more accessible here. It still costs a fortune but if it's everywhere, it doesn't seem that expensive.
Alex Kolodotschko wrote: It's because it's boring over here in England and it rains all the time.
Only boring people get bored, that's what me Nan used to say anyway.
As to weather, it was my recollection from A-Level geography that the UK is the very model of a mild climate. Nothing too hot, nothing too cold and nothing lethal. So I don't think that's it.
I would suggest that as demoted here that wargaming seems to be more popular here in the UK (as a proportion of population) if the above financials are anything to go by. Also as alluded to I would agree that its infrastructure that keeps it on the public purview or at least as far as those of a gaming bent are concerned.
GW helps with this by being a ubiquitous high street presence (I'd guess in most towns over 100,000 pop.) as does the dearth of online wargaming stores and gaming/miniature companies but the biggest influence is the many clubs here. A community hub like these really helps to establish and expand player bases in a way that I'm not sure a shop will do. The fact that we pay into a club automatically make you vested in it's continuation and expansion which isn't the case with a shop.
A shop obviously (and rightly) has the overriding concerns of the owners at its core. So in a situation where this is the main community hub it will inevitably favour whatever brings in margin, (MTG over wargames), directed by the owners preferences and ultimately his/her arbitration. The club community is run (via committee) to the consensus of the community which being more inclusive will help to perpetuate the community base.
While clubs and high street shops (I mean as an entry point to the hobby, not as a gaming venue) are apparently more common in the UK than the USA, that might be a result of the popularity of wargames rather than a cause.
Also, the shop-centric playing culture of the USA is largely among GW players. Historicals are pretty popular in the US and AFAIK are played in clubs and at home, not in shops.
It appears that this doesn't occur very often in the US where the norm is for people to be very dependent on commercial stores.
Not as much as you might be lead to believe. Most gaming in the US happens in homes, not stores or clubs. Ask any store owner how many of their customers play in store and they will let you know it is a very small percentage, and that doesnt even account for all those who buy online and have left B&M stores behind.
While the percentage of the population might higher in the UK, though honestly I would be surprised if it was. If you look at other indicators like convention attendance and what not, we have a lot of gamers...they just are often not playing GW games, and usually not playing in stores. I am sure that one of the Dakka Admin could give a traffic breakdown for here, but other sites have 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 traffic from the US versus the UK.
When you place that against the back drop of the GW financials, we are not spending 2 or 3 to 1 on their stuff...but we are spending.
Anecdotal evidence - I'm having to travel way further to get a game now I'm back in the UK than I did in Vancouver.
There seemed to be tonnes of gamers in the PNW on both sides of the border so maybe it's just that some cities tend to draw in people who like gaming? Given that the west coast of the USA and Canada is well stocked for games companies, video game companies and film companies this probably isn't surprising.
I think GWs overall marketing(lack of) & business practices have really hindered its growth in the US. Particularly in recent years with the economy. Yes I know they have grown, but not at nearly the rate that they could have. They should have taken the Walmart approach, cheap items but tons of volume, grown your base, bring in more & more young players because they can afford it. Yes you make way less $ per model but if done right your volume will grow exponentially as popularity increases. Instead they have made themselves the Banana Republic of war gaming(or maybe Sears judging by how quick their stores are closing), a successful business, but not when compared to Walmart.
Yes I know these are flawed analogies, but you get my point.
Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.
Kilkrazy wrote: While clubs and high street shops (I mean as an entry point to the hobby, not as a gaming venue) are apparently more common in the UK than the USA, that might be a result of the popularity of wargames rather than a cause.
Also, the shop-centric playing culture of the USA is largely among GW players. Historicals are pretty popular in the US and AFAIK are played in clubs and at home, not in shops.
I couldn't really comment on the Historicals crowd being club and home gamers as my FLGS has 3 main gaming nights, Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. Friday nights is a mix of w/e we feel like playing, which has been dominated by Bolt Action the past month, Thursdays is always historicals, and Saturdays is always Flames of War.
Though to be fair, 40k is the dominant game at his second store, which only has open gaming on Saturdays.
One thing that might affect the UK's playerbase might be the relative lack of self-consciousness we have. There's a lot of history here of fashion trends (punk, etc) that doesn't seem to appear much elsewhere. Being seen in public being a bit odd is hardly an issue here.
That, and no real opportunity to get our hands on firearms If the only guns we get to play with are 1/2" long, it satisfies the hunger to blow holes in things.
Maybe it's a historical thing. Images and sites related to war are everywhere, and the desire to tap into that may bleed into hobby time. Western Europe has been at war with itself, and outside, for ever. The legacy of that shows up all over. Most towns have a road, site or district called "The Butts", from when bow-practice was mandatory, but hardly anyone these days knows about that.
Maybe it's the ratio of chain-stores to independents. An indy hobby store might be more likely to branch out into selling wargames, where-as a big chain would not. Most towns have a model-train store, or R/C cars, or similar. Lots of this kind of store sells games, too. Have a look at the Dakka Store Finder for examples.
Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.
Most people who get told about my 40k knows roughly want that is. It could be a nephew who played one, or the corner of a shop they go in.
I would say most people know something, but most don't know that much.
Phobos wrote: Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games.
Perhaps not familiar but normally by the time you mention Games Workshop you see a small lightbulb flash over their heads and a response something like.....
'Oh yeah, they've got one of those shops in Whahereverington's town centre, i've looked in and there's just a load of people standing around tables. I've always wondered what goes on in there'
Or this
'My niece, cousin, goldfish does/used to do that, he'd spend hours painting the things, i'm not sure i'd have the patience or the eyesight for it.'
Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.
It's hard to say but there are several examples of well-known people (actors, etc) who have been on TV over the decades and either talked about wargaming or used it in programmes.
"Callan", 1967-72, featuring Edward Woodward has wargames in the plot.
Dereck Guyler, a popular comic actor in the 60s-70s, was a wargamer and president of the Society of Ancients.
Well-known film actor Peter Cushing was a wargamer and appeared in a short cinema documentary about his hobby in 1956.
"New Tricks" has a plotline that involves wargames, broadcast maybe in 2007(?).
Also there have been several series or one off programmes or media events specifically about wargames:
Seelowe (1974) was a big wargame project by The Daily Telegraph, covering the invasion of Britain in 1940, that involved a number of surviving WW2 commanders.
Operation Starcross (1979) was a speculative TV special about a Warsaw Pact-NATO clash
Game of War (2009) was a series of three refights of historical battles.
There was a TV series in the 2000s using an adapted version of Total War software to stage virtual wargames.
Considering the above it is fairly possible that a wide range of the general public may have at least some exposure to wargames.
being a gamer for 20 years now and spending almost 3 years in the uk. here are my opinions
population density is key. England is tiny. it has lots of country side and lots of people crammed into towns. When I lived in the upper penisula of Michigan after college. I had a hard time finding games. wargames are hard to do without opponents.
the British are nerds for science fiction/fantasy. They have highly watched Doctor Who episodes on for X-mas like americans have football games on Thanksgiving.
The Britsh culture also is more accepting to the men to go have more nights out with the mates. In America, once you are married you are less likely to spend three or four nights a week with friends. this is not uncommon in the UK. In the states your free time is even more restricted once you have kids.
Zweischneid has a good point with his GW statistics. As much as some people hate GW, you can't deny that, if anyone, they are the ones who've made wargaming "mainstream" and I'd be willing to bet there are more people who play the GW systems that the people who play other wargames combined. I think the fact that GW is based in the UK has a lot to do with it.
And also, as other people have said, the population density is a factor. I'm sure the amount of gamers per km squared is far higher in the UK, even if it is simply because the UK is smaller.
Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.
Yeah, I think UK society is a lot more aware of wargames. Most people at my school (and indeed other schools - except for perhaps all girls' schools) know the concept of wargaming (usually 40k) i.e. that you play with little figures that you move around and try to beat the other persons' figures. Some people even know the term "Space Marine". It's usually talked about in a negative way, at least by the people who are inclined to ridicule others people or things (not having a go at these people by the way) but that's teenagers for you. I'd say there's probably 1 in 40 males my age who DON'T know the concept, but I've hardly gone around and done a survey.
That said, not being an adult, I have no idea whether or not this is the same for adults.
One reason for sure that I know 40K or WHFB are not popular in the states is that it seems there is no advertisements on TV for it like video games and also there isn't a large following on social media either. Young people nowadays in America are guided by TV and social media quite a bit, hence the popularity of video games and movies, heck I see commercials for trading card games and I'm pretty sure I've never (and I'm 33) seen one for 40K or WHFB or any other miniature game.
The lack of advertising and a good action packed app based game is the biggest issue for GW.
If it is all about the new players as they have targeted they need to have a presence where that generation is: online media. In North America you have to specifically look for Warhammer, it should be slapping us in the face if they want any market penetration.
I live in the u.s and spent a couple years living in spain which obviously not the uk but i did notice a different mentality. I'd say people in the u.s. tend to be much more focused on appearance and what people think of you. I knew a number of people growing up who took out huge loans to afford cars and other things that were way out of their budget just to look important. 40k is considered a nerdy hobby in the u.s and i think that might deter people who would enjoy the hobby if they werent so occupied with fitting in.
Rotary wrote: I live in the u.s and spent a couple years living in spain which obviously not the uk but i did notice a different mentality. I'd say people in the u.s. tend to be much more focused on appearance and what people think of you. I knew a number of people growing up who took out huge loans to afford cars and other things that were way out of their budget just to look important. 40k is considered a nerdy hobby in the u.s and i think that might deter people who would enjoy the hobby if they werent so occupied with fitting in.
Trust me, wargaming is seen as nerdy in the UK. Doesn't seem to stop many people though.
If wargaming is indeed more popular in the UK or Europe it's possibly because there is more history. That's not meant as any slight against the US, but the UK has a lot more historical battles than the US does, hence games such as Hail Caesar are arguably more likely to gain UK/European fans than US ones.
Kroothawk wrote: Because in USA, it is easier for a kid to get a real gun than a GW kit
cheaper too!
This is great news!
You joke, but I knew more kids in high school who made home-made explosives (with surplus grenade shells) than who played Battletech, which was the only tabletop wargame any of us had heard of back then.
The long answer is that, when modern wargaming emerged in the United States in the 1950s, there were two directions in which the hobby could have gone. There was Jack Scruby's miniature-based approach and Charles Roberts' board- and counter-based approach. The board- and counter-based approached won out, with Roberts' Avalon Hill rising to prominence and mainstream popularity over the course of the next two decades. The miniature-based approach found a niche, but more or less languished until the late 1960s and early 1970s, when it evolved into what we now know as the roleplaying game. Roleplaying games exploded in popularity over the course of the 1970s, with the industry leader Dungeons & Dragons becoming a household name by the early 1980s. The success of the roleplaying game helped to erode the popularity of the board- and counter-based wargame and the rise of the computer-based wargame sent the industry (and the hobby) into irreversible decline.
Although D&D evolved out of miniature-based wargaming, by the mid-1980s, miniatures were no longer a major part of the hobby and miniature-based wargaming never took off in the United States. By the middle of the 1980s, board- and counter-based wargaming was rendered obsolete by onset of the digital revolution.
The situation on the other side of the pond was different in the 1950s. Donald Featherstone was enamored of Scruby's approach. In addition to obtaining permission to publish a British version of Scruby's newsletter, he tirelessly promoted miniature-based wargaming as a form of entertainment and a tool for education. He wrote a series of popular and influential books on the subject, advocated for the creation of gaming clubs, organized conventions, and even got the attention of the BBC. As a result, miniature-based wargaming attained a level of popularity in Britain that it never did in the United States. As a result, Games Workshop had an existing infrastructure to plug into and foundation to build on when it decided to cease being a mere importer of American roleplaying games and move on to something else. The history of British wargaming after the mid-1980s is basically the history of Games Workshop.
And clearly explains why many people here have heard of Dungeons and Dragons or at least recognize the name even if they have no idea exactly what it is, whereas Warhammer will often bring blank stares.
I think awareness of d&d is also helped by the cartoon franchise that was essential child's viewing in the 80's. that was my first introduction to the world of fantasy!
Eggs wrote: I think awareness of d&d is also helped by the cartoon franchise that was essential child's viewing in the 80's. that was my first introduction to the world of fantasy!
I bought the entire series for drinking game reasons, you had a gakky childhood
Kilkrazy wrote: It describes the history well, however the question is why the US preferred map based games to miniatures?
I always thought it was the "esthetic" at the time was you only needed a reminder of what that piece was, a graphic representation seemed rather overdone in comparison.
I think also by using counters it obtained a "seriousness" rather than grown men playing with "toy" soldiers.
All you had to do is look at one of those massive maps with little cardboard counters everywhere and pretty much anyone would stop and go into mental overload.
If you do similar setups with actual models representing each unit, people can understand that and it looks like the toys my kids have so it is easy to belittle.
UK has a fine history of men taking very strange games and making them deadly serious so it all boils down to a historical comfort level thing and the ladies are happy they are doing that rather than running around the countryside with firearms, dogs and horses.
There was a TV series in the 2000s using an adapted version of Total War software to stage virtual wargames.
Time Commanders. A show, which the BBC rejected our gaming club's application to be on it as we were coming from a wargaming club we "might know what we were doing".
Sorry to disabuse those claiming it is population density, culture, historical differences etc.
The answer is far more prosaic.
The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.
These allowed the growth of various manufacturers - Citadel for example - by mail order advertising.
As for why US companies are not more prominent - which is contentious, especially historically, Battletech was massive in Europe with events in Germany attracting upwards of 5000 players - I would suggest the reason is twofold; they are too parochial and the shipping rates are too high.
Yeah, but the key word here is "small". You're always going to have a non-zero number of people interested in the hobby (and determined enough to overcome obstacles in buying stuff), but population density makes a huge difference in how big that group is.
Perhaps but in my case the available population of around 1000 gave a group with 6 members. Population density does help of course but its not a vital factor.
Between my school and the one nearest by, there are about 5,000 students... I am the only to actively play the game. There was a single other, who no longer does, and two people who had "heard of it". I am incredibly jealous of your school!
Notably, Australia is pretty mad too, despite all their mistreatment from GW. With only about 1/3rd of the UK population (~22 Million?) they make about 1/3rd of GW's UK revenue. So I don't think population density is it. Australia has lots of empty space, but they game as much as UK-people do.
Actually the revenue made in Australia compared to England isn't actually tell you how many people buy Warhammer. Here in Australia there is around a 30-80% mark up on different models, so although there may be high revenue it's due to people here being charged a truckload more. $110 for a land raider? it's $20 cheaper in the UK, a price which adds up over time.
I watched time commander with my granddad when it was on, He told me that it reminded him of his training at sandhurst playing with wooden horses and little pikemen. He said the rules were some ancients wargame and its how they all learned battle tactics before being allowed to kill real people. That would have been in the late 50s so i dont know for sure. I do know that young rich boys in the UK were given toy soldiers so they could reenact famous battles back in the 1700s.
As for the availability/population density issue. when I started wargaming there was 1 store in my town that sold models mostly airfix/hornby/scalextrix and a few GW and ral partha stuff. My town has a population of around 15000 and at the time the nearest GW was in edinburgh which is a good 2 hours by car. At my school there was maybe 30 wargamers and most of us played more than one game and often roleplayed aswell. We used to have a wargaming club in the town until our gaming space was given to a linedancing club who payed double what we did for it and most of us drifted apart or moved onto other hobbies.
I think most people I know know someone who plays some sort of wargame.
The long answer is that, when modern wargaming emerged in the United States in the 1950s, there were two directions in which the hobby could have gone. There was Jack Scruby's miniature-based approach and Charles Roberts' board- and counter-based approach. The board- and counter-based approached won out, with Roberts' Avalon Hill rising to prominence and mainstream popularity over the course of the next two decades. The miniature-based approach found a niche, but more or less languished until the late 1960s and early 1970s, when it evolved into what we now know as the roleplaying game. Roleplaying games exploded in popularity over the course of the 1970s, with the industry leader Dungeons & Dragons becoming a household name by the early 1980s. The success of the roleplaying game helped to erode the popularity of the board- and counter-based wargame and the rise of the computer-based wargame sent the industry (and the hobby) into irreversible decline.
Although D&D evolved out of miniature-based wargaming, by the mid-1980s, miniatures were no longer a major part of the hobby and miniature-based wargaming never took off in the United States. By the middle of the 1980s, board- and counter-based wargaming was rendered obsolete by onset of the digital revolution.
The situation on the other side of the pond was different in the 1950s. Donald Featherstone was enamored of Scruby's approach. In addition to obtaining permission to publish a British version of Scruby's newsletter, he tirelessly promoted miniature-based wargaming as a form of entertainment and a tool for education. He wrote a series of popular and influential books on the subject, advocated for the creation of gaming clubs, organized conventions, and even got the attention of the BBC. As a result, miniature-based wargaming attained a level of popularity in Britain that it never did in the United States. As a result, Games Workshop had an existing infrastructure to plug into and foundation to build on when it decided to cease being a mere importer of American roleplaying games and move on to something else. The history of British wargaming after the mid-1980s is basically the history of Games Workshop.
I don't agree,
I blame H.G Wells's Little wars and There has always been a strong scene of historical reenactment in GB (miniatures and real)
And off course the weather always blame the weather.
Kilkrazy wrote: It describes the history well, however the question is why the US preferred map based games to miniatures?
Well, that's what the history was intended to illustrate. Wargaming simply evolved differently on either side of the Atlantic. In the United States, the hobby was dominated by board- and counter-based wargames and, later, roleplaying games. In Great Britain, historical miniature-based wargames caught on in a much bigger way. It's tough to come up with a really solid answer beyond that as so many factors were at play.
For example, while both the United States and the United Kingdom enjoyed similar periods of prosperity in the post-war period, the US entered into a fifteen-year "baby boom" while the UK saw a brief increase in fertility immediately after World War II before the birth rate declined to almost Depression-era levels. Those factors had to have an effect on the evolution of wargaming in each country. There's no way that they couldn't have
But what effect did they have exactly? Maybe, with larger numbers of like-aged peers in their only families, it was easier for American youth to find opponents for board games than it was for their British counterparts. Maybe smaller family sizes combined with rising affluence left British youth without immediately accessible playmates in the home but more time and money to spend on their hobbies, making solitary pursuits like collecting and painting miniatures or models more appealing. The end result might have been American youth predisposed to a board- and counter-based approach and British predisposed to a miniature-based one.
I'm not stating that those were definitive reasons, mind you. I'm just pointing to the kinds of factors that would have actually caused wargaming to evolve differently on either side of the Atlantic. Answering the question fully and in a meaningful would be a massive undertaking.
The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.
WH Smiths(UK's largest newsagent at virtually every train/bus station and every town centre) has now stopped stocking White Dwarf, iirc from chatting to my GW Account Manager it was because they were squeezing for more money off. Why GW didn't give the magazines to them for free or an insane discount is a complete mystery to me.
It was a first exposure for many of us (mainly due to the cool front covers) and a catalyst to go and find a GW store. I'm sure it's going to hurt wargaming in the long run.
The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.
WH Smiths(UK's largest newsagent at virtually every train/bus station and every town centre) has now stopped stocking White Dwarf,
Smiths may have stopped, but Sainsburys at least still stocks it.
When a high-street shop stops selling something, blame supermarkets
Kilkrazy wrote: It describes the history well, however the question is why the US preferred map based games to miniatures?
Well, that's what the history was intended to illustrate. Wargaming simply evolved differently on either side of the Atlantic. In the United States, the hobby was dominated by board- and counter-based wargames and, later, roleplaying games. In Great Britain, historical miniature-based wargames caught on in a much bigger way. It's tough to come up with a really solid answer beyond that as so many factors were at play. ...
...
.
Yes, valid points. I think the British tradition of Britain's toy soldiers must have had some influence.
Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.
if you say "wargame" in the US you'll likely get someone thinking you:
1. play paintball or the soft bb game.
2. more likely are talking about a video game.
Is the video game industry big in the UK? Its absolutely massive here. That may be a factor.
And clearly explains why many people here have heard of Dungeons and Dragons or at least recognize the name even if they have no idea exactly what it is, whereas Warhammer will often bring blank stares.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I don't agree,
I blame H.G Wells's Little wars and There has always been a strong scene of historical reenactment in GB (miniatures and real)
Little Wars appeared in 1913, went out of print and faded into obscurity. It would probably be remembered today only by H.G. Wells scholars if not for the fact that a guy who read the pamphlet as a child cited it as igniting his love of the very idea of wargaming. That guy was Donald Featherstone. Although you may not realize it, part of the reason that you're pointing to Little Wars to disagree with me about Featherstone's influence is, ironically, Featherstone's influence.
Even though Little Wars ignited his love of wargaming, he never actually got to play a wargame until he was pushing forty. He played against Tony Bath, who had come up with his own set of wargaming rules but lamented that he was unable to find an opponent. Ever. He also complained of the difficulties involved in securing the necessary figures, as the only company producing ancients was in Germany and refused to export them to the UK. (The eventual solution that early British wargamers came up with was getting friends in the military to send back some figures to be recast using plaster of Paris molds.) Trying to find sources for wargaming miniatures put Featherstone in touch with Jack Scruby, who was literally the only guy in the world making miniatures specifically for wargaming. Not only that, but he was actually putting out rulesets and even a newsletter.
I get what you and Kilkrazy are saying. People collected toy soldiers in Britain. However, they did that in every country, which is why Bath fretted about getting toy soldiers from Germany to play his wargame. And the supposedly "strong scene" that you're talking about was basically the British Model Soldier Society which, circa the mid-1950s, had a handful of members worldwide. Bath published his rules in the BMSS journal before meeting Featherstone, but noted that he had never actually played them because he couldn't find an opponent. Featherstone was his first opponent, and he was so jazzed by the experience that he devoted the rest of his life to popularizing miniature-based wargaming in Britain.
I'm not making this up. The history of wargaming has been lovingly and painstakingly documented by wargamers themselves. In exhaustive detail. (Probably way more detail than is really necessary, but we're talking about old school grognards here so that's to be expected.) There were some experiments before the 1950s (Little Wars in the UK, Shambattle and Fletcher Pratt's Naval Wargame in the US), but the history of the hobby as we know it, on both sides of the Atlantic, started in the mid-1950s.
That is absolutely true, and chimes in with my list of wargames in the media starting from 1956 -- the British Pathe feature on Peter Cushing Napoleonic wargamer.
I remember when Ral Partha was putting out the majority of miniatures in the 25mm range and had quite a selection. Their problem was they never put money back into product development for their new lines. So really each new product resembled the previous ones. I mean really I still have a lot of them and my English Pikemen resemble my Thracian spearmen. Silly really. Also RP would have taken off if they had developed their own rules sets and fluff. I started with GW in 1993 (for fantasy and SciFi) and never looked back.
My US point of view is that playing a video game is a lot easier than painting up minis, so average US kid plays videos. And I believe the mass of distractions available in the US, supported by shall we say garish advertising has an effect as well. Have yet to see an ad with hot blondes hanging on guys rolling dice to see how many 28mm plastic Orks get blasted.
Also believe the club thing in the UK is a factor. Seems to be a weather related phenomenon that has evolved over the decades. Being of an age that was heavily influenced by the British rock invasion of the 60's, I always felt that the Beatles evolved in a way that would never have happened in the US because we were all watching TV while the British kids were going out to the rock clubs because the BBC radio and TV sucked. So the Beatles and the others had an audience while we were watching TV in the living room.
And the Brits always had a reputation for making great tin soldiers while we played with cheap rubber 'toys' as kids and wouldn't be caught dead playing with 'army dolls' as my wife calls them once into our teens.
The history lesson on Avalon Hill versus D&D makes sense as well. Personally, I never went near D&D as it seemed to be populated with wand toting geeks, but loved GW when I came across it 12 years ago because I loved painting military models and you could play a game with them. Also helps that I like posting battle reports and getting comments from all over the world, but that's another story....
Jehan-reznor wrote: I don't agree,
I blame H.G Wells's Little wars and There has always been a strong scene of historical reenactment in GB (miniatures and real)
Little Wars appeared in 1913, went out of print and faded into obscurity. It would probably be remembered today only by H.G. Wells scholars if not for the fact that a guy who read the pamphlet as a child cited it as igniting his love of the very idea of wargaming. That guy was Donald Featherstone.
I win! Just kidding, Ever since childhood, On TV there was always elderly retired militairy guys playing with tin soldiers, maybe they were not playing Little wars but Kriegsspiele?
Eh, it's not that old (3 months is on the line). There have been some good posts ITT but what strikes me is how most people assume the question has merit. I'd just like to know what evidence supports that.
Nice post YoungBlood13, enjoyed reading it. There is actually an obituary on Donald Featherstone in the latest Wargames Illustrated (he sadly passed away recently) which is definitely worth reading.
Manchu wrote: What evidence is there that war gaming is so much more popular in the UK than the US?
I suppose we would need to see sales of wargaming for both the UK and US. That there are so many companies operating out of the UK, a much smaller country proportionately, would make me inclined to guess that it is more popular in the UK (in terms of percentage of populous).
I would hazard a guess that here in South Florida (Where population is pretty dense) that there are VERY few gamers... I'd wager I've only met (in my area Ft. Lauderdale / Miami / Palm Beach) maybe 20 - 30 different people that game all the time. That's a lot of people that don't.
As was said, it's a UK company, and obviously it'll be bigger where it was made, they advertise more and are more saturated by it. I'd wager that most states have a VERY small community. When I lived in Vermont.. no one knew about it, and there's only one place to play really, in Burlington... and there are very few people there. USA is very spread out.. but overall I'd figure it's hard to say. Just not well advertised here.
Take out a new White Dwarf. Look at the store section and compare uk to USA (or even the rest of the world).
When I think of wargaming I think of the uk. The fact there is so many uk manufactures means that more uk people can find out about the hobby there. All the stores means that people might walk in and have a look and strart. The fact wargaming was pretty much founded in the uk.
dakkajet wrote: Take out a new White Dwarf. Look at the store section and compare uk to USA (or even the rest of the world).
The reason for the UK's concentration of GW stores is probably not popularity, but population distribution.
The US appears to be built around cities, with large sprawling suburbs.
The UK is more large towns, with fewer cities. There's less chance we'd travel to a city to buy stuff, than for someone to open a store in their town.
With so much around us that points to historical military, we can hardly avoid references to things wargames build on.
Every town had a Butts, for every male of a certain age to practice their archery skills, by law.
The Roman invasion left barracks and forts all over the country.
There were invasions (Vikings), civil wars (Roundheads and Royalists), wars of independence (Scotland), the Blitz, massive development of warmachines (aircraft and tanks) and so on. Then, there's the navy. Most large towns and cities on the coast have defences, and lots have ports for warships.
Walk through London and look at how many buildings had chunks blown out of them during the early '40s.
The UK has been battered by battles for ever, and tales of the British Empire's expansions flooded back home for a long time.
So, any old soldier with time on his hands who doesn't want to sit just talking about the old days, might want to relive some of the battle he survived. Throw in some 'what-if', and you have wargames.
I would hazard a bet that GW is more popular because of the placement of its high street stores in prime areas of high foot traffic. There is a store in every big city and some towns.
Manchu wrote: What evidence is there that war gaming is so much more popular in the UK than the US?
I think the hard evidence is the sales figures from GW, but perhaps Americans just play more games by other companies.
It seems to be about the same to me, but I do think that the larger distances over here must surely play a part, everywhere is so much more spaced out, I can imagine it being more of a pain in the arse to get a game in. Add in some California traffic, and I can see why people would ignore the urge to drive 22 miles to have a game, and simply play DOW on the internet instead!
I personally disagree with the premise and think its probably about the same in both the US and the UK, I havent had any difficulty meeting people to play with since I arrived, and I would postulate that rather than wargaming being more popular, GW is more popular.
But as we all know, GW isn't wargaming, its GW, and I bet PP sell ten times the product here than in the UK.
A shop obviously (and rightly) has the overriding concerns of the owners at its core. So in a situation where this is the main community hub it will inevitably favour whatever brings in margin, (MTG over wargames), directed by the owners preferences and ultimately his/her arbitration. The club community is run (via committee) to the consensus of the community which being more inclusive will help to perpetuate the community base.
That's a good point. My local-ish games store keeps (trying to) introduce new games which is at least partly in order to expand the sales that are made by his regular clientele. it does him no special good when people finish their <insert game/faction> army/force and don't feel a need to expand it or buy another one...
The USA most gamers tend to gather at homes than at stores ..We have always had to mail order gaming stuff the internet is just another easier way to mail order stuff in ..distances being what they are ..We also have a LARGE variety of wargmes avaible to us ..not just the ~50th scale skirmish sized games such as GW40k or PP ..We have 5mm thru 10mm Armies ..15 mm Brigades..hex based Maps with cardboard chits for WWI, II, III, scifi , historical etc etc etc ~4000 scale global conflict, ~400 scale Mecha Conflict games, etc etc etc all at our fingertips ..what we do not have is easy access gaming store saturation just a few here and there. in larger towns ..and only medium sized cities or bigger have more than one
Has climate been brought up? I wonder if the UK's brand of weather might encourage people to develop indoor interests which could lead to more wargamers by virtue of being confined to the house (especially at younger ages) for longer periods of time.
I know growing up in Southern California I was always envious of the players in other parts of the US that seemed to have naturally occurring gaming populations. States in the mid-west, north-east, and eastern seaboard all appeared to have larger groups of gamers than what I found in SoCal, and I couldn't help but wonder if weather played a part in that observation. Most of the big gaming conventions in the US are also held in those regions, though some west coast conventions are picking up steam. Still, when 3-6 months of the year are taken up by crappy weather it makes a certain kind of sense that you would shelter in place and roll dice rather than be caught in a storm or the cold.
No hard facts to be found in the musings above, merely my own curiosity on the subject being typed out.
Donut64 wrote: I postulate that, no there aren't more people who play Wargames in the UK than in the US.
The UK has a higher per capita income, meaning that everyone has more hobby money than those in the US. Combine this with shorter travel times for games, and shorter travel times in general meaning less money spent on gas, the average US gamer for Wargames is going to have a LOT less money to spend.
Strange though how US has the higher point average for "listed" games. I'll argue that since folks play at home more in the US (I've only played a wargame in a store once, over 5+ years of it), it's even more local than in the UK. By extension, most people in the US who buy GW stuff maybe have only a few boxes of minis and play whenever convenient.
And based on a bunch of anecdotal evidence, I'd say there are more total people who play wargames in the US than any other country in the world. However it is almost certainly true that they are more spread out, and most of them spend less on the hobby than their overseas counterparts, meaning the sales output from the US might be smaller than it is in the UK. I would like to point out that the middle-north-east of the US, around Ohio/Indiana/Illinois/Michigan, seems to carry the most TT wargame weight (probably because Ral Partha was based in Ohio).
Local store argument? Valid for exposure, but not valid for continuing sales as the vast majority of folks eligible for 40k are, by now, used to ordering their items online anyway. That's probably way GW wants exclusivity for the online market because that's how the majority of folks in the US will be getting their minis.
I'm pleased to see that jingoism is alive and well.
The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.
WH Smiths(UK's largest newsagent at virtually every train/bus station and every town centre) has now stopped stocking White Dwarf, iirc from chatting to my GW Account Manager it was because they were squeezing for more money off. Why GW didn't give the magazines to them for free or an insane discount is a complete mystery to me.
It was a first exposure for many of us (mainly due to the cool front covers) and a catalyst to go and find a GW store. I'm sure it's going to hurt wargaming in the long run.
Indeed, but WH Smiths is not the be all and end all, and I believe Martins still stocks White Dwarf - as do the supermarkets - and Dragon magazine far outsold WD, back in the day - but I somehow doubt you have ever heard of it.
However I was speaking of when WH Smith did stock the magazines I was referring to, which since you are obsessed with GW, carried advertisements for Citadel, Marauder etc. And of course the Tyne Tees TV series the Battleground with Edward Woodward should not be disregarded in this respect.
byw... I doubt the withdrawl of WD will have the chicken licken effect you suggest on wargaming, as Smiiths still stock Miniature Wargaming, WSS, and Wargames Illustrated - which following your logic will only be a good thing for the hobby as it will produce a generation of gamers free from the OCD of the GW generation.
Donut64 wrote: I postulate that, no there aren't more people who play Wargames in the UK than in the US.
The UK has a higher per capita income, meaning that everyone has more hobby money than those in the US. Combine this with shorter travel times for games, and shorter travel times in general meaning less money spent on gas, the average US gamer for Wargames is going to have a LOT less money to spend.
This simply isn't true. A quick google search shows that the US per capita income is much higher than the UK.
I don't think there are any complicated reasons why gaming is probably more "popular" in the UK than the US.
1) Population density = more people available in proximity to you that share your interests. Even though the population of the United states is 5x that of the UK, the population density in the UK is almost 10x greater than that of the US. The UK is a much, much smaller country, plain and simple. For a rough comparison, the UK is basically the size of Oregon.
2) The tabletop genre was invented and/or popularized in the UK, so naturally there will be a bigger interest there. Ever tried to play a game of American Football in a European country? You get funny looks. It was created in the US, so naturally there is a greater interest for it here. Same goes for Tabletop gaming.
Edward Woodward? You mean the Equalizer? I would liek to see this show!
Indeed, but the problem is that it will cost you @£800 an episode for the TV company to give you a copy - and there are apparently copyright restrictions that prevent you from distributing it.
Which is a shame as there is a refight of Gettysburg using Britain's figures.
Aerethan wrote: At a month old, this really didn't need to get dragged back to the first page.
Not your call Aerethan. A month is not all that long, thread stays open.
Thanks!
Well then how about the part where the bump was entirely off topic?
Wargaming is less popular in the US because this new generation is devoid of imagination which plays a big part in wargaming. Our kids want video games and crappy pop music(and have for the last 15 years). A lot of older forms of entertainment are dying here, even drugs are seeing decreased use among the younger population(which granted is a good thing, but the point remains).
I'm sure if there was a properly marketed and not hack and slash video game released with excellent online play then GW games would be more popular if only from the exposure.
Look at Call of Duty. It hasn't done anything original in about 5 incarnations, yet it is a top selling game every year. This year was literally "we added a dog" and kids went ape gak for it.
I'm sure the lack of advertising or marketing in any form plays a factor as well. Here in the US, the only way people are exposed to GW games is if they know someone who already plays or if they HAPPEN to walk by a store that sells their products, be it an LGS or GW store.
For all we know, the US has more players overall, but fewer per capita than the UK. We have about 5x as many citizens here in the US than the UK, so even if we had exactly the same amount of players, they would be 5x more scarce(using crazy simple math here, don't rage on me over it).
Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.
Also the current mindset in a lot of the US places little importance on keeping things around from the past. We tear down all manner of structures that should rightly be kept as historic reminders. We can't be bothered to keep many local landmarks, meanwhile the UK is comparatively littered with centuries old castles.
We have our perks, I'm sure. But I swear this current generation of "millenials" will be the destruction of our country. Nothing but a sense of entitlement and instant satisfaction from these kids. And that is coming from myself who is only 29.
Also the current mindset in a lot of the US places little importance on keeping things around from the past. We tear down all manner of structures that should rightly be kept as historic reminders. We can't be bothered to keep many local landmarks, meanwhile the UK is comparatively littered with centuries old castles.
In all fairness American history doesn't go back quite as far. They still have historical land marks, they just have much less to choose from.
We have our perks, I'm sure. But I swear this current generation of "millenials" will be the destruction of our country. Nothing but a sense of entitlement and instant satisfaction from these kids. And that is coming from myself who is only 29.
I guarantee you that people were saying that about your generation, and the one before that. The "Millenials" will likley say it about the next lot too.
Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.
Without meaning to offend, this part made me chuckle, what a bizarre assumption to make.
Osbad wrote: One thing also that is different between the UK/Aus and US wargaming scenes is the location gaming takes place. In the UK and Oz there is a preponderance of independent clubs that meet in church halls and above pubs. It appears that this doesn't occur very often in the US where the norm is for people to be very dependent on commercial stores.
I think this is a huge factor. When you also consider how badly-run and short-lived many gaming stores are it makes for a fragmented community. There are lots of clubs that have been in place for decades, for example the wargames society at Edinburgh university goes back to (at least) the 50's.
Definitely, a couple of local historical gaming groups in my area that go back to probably from before I was born. Have persisted on the basis of (and seemed quite happy) collecting from companies selling their range in the back of wargaming magazines and trade fairs.
It's actually still kind of difficult to find an internet presence for a lot of the guys in these groups, although that has started to change.
What's the school club scene like in the states. I know I was a proud member of the Belfast Royal Academy war-games society back in the day and it was great!
We played mostly warhammer fantasy, some 40k and roleplaying. It's also sadly were I learnt to smoke which was a habit I only managed to kick a few years ago.
But hobby wise I think school clubs are a great way to teach community and grow gaming cultures.
Those Australia numbers are surprising, considering how royally we get boned down here. I pretty much live on eBay in an attempt to cut the exorbitant costs GW charges Down Under.
Knockagh wrote: What's the school club scene like in the states. I know I was a proud member of the Belfast Royal Academy war-games society back in the day and it was great!
It's pretty spotty here, to be honest. Some universities have some fantastic clubs, but they are the major exception rather than the rule. These groups could spring up, but the North American consumer, in both the US and Canada, need exposure from marketing campaigns, even if it was just on the internet. It's this strange catch 22 kind of situation where the clubs and groups could spring up and sustain/grow the wider hobby, but the marketing investments needs to be made first.
Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.
Without meaning to offend, this part made me chuckle, what a bizarre assumption to make.
Same. Seriously Yanks, next time you're feeling inclined to believe the Hollywood depiction of Brits as Good Old Chaps with ferocious moustaches who all drink tea by the gallon, play cricket, watch Doctor Who religiously, and are terribly polite to each other all the time; watch Trainspotting. It's still a fiction, but it's far closer to the reality than 007 or Lord of the Rings.
I also enjoyed the one about how bad weather makes us all agoraphobics who'd rather huddle in the warm huffing our poly cement than go out and play sports; I once played a game of rugby on a pitch that resembled a partially-frozen swamp, with the prevailing drizzle giving way to torrential downpours every ten or fifteen minutes, and I hate playing sports so you can imagine the lengths actual enthusiasts will go to in order to play regardless of the weather.
We have our perks, I'm sure. But I swear this current generation of "millenials" will be the destruction of our country. Nothing but a sense of entitlement and instant satisfaction from these kids. And that is coming from myself who is only 29.
I guarantee you that people were saying that about your generation, and the one before that. The "Millenials" will likley say it about the next lot too.
Yodhrin wrote: [Seriously Yanks, next time you're feeling inclined to believe the Hollywood depiction of Brits as Good Old Chaps with ferocious moustaches who all drink tea by the gallon, play cricket, watch Doctor Who religiously, and are terribly polite to each other all the time; watch Trainspotting. It's still a fiction, but it's far closer to the reality than 007 or Lord of the Rings.
What!
All of my hopes, dreasm,a nd aspirations have now been crushed.
Aerethan wrote: Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.
If what you were trying to say (without getting into stereotypes) is that the UK tends to be less cliquey and judgemental then you may be right.
Most guys in my office have some familiarity with wargaming. There is a pretty strong boardgame sub-culture in Toronto and naturally wargaming is just a more specific type.
Phobos wrote: Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.
So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?
The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.
Phobos wrote: Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.
So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?
The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.
I'm calling you out Kronkster!
I want accurate counts and records on my desk by 4PM Thrusday or it didn't happen, and I won't be fobbed of with some expensive Gallup or Mori poll; door to door mister!
Phobos wrote: Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.
So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?
The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.
yeah I very much doubt there are more total wargamers in the UK than the US.
Phobos wrote: Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.
So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?
The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.
I'm curious as to why you believe this?
Incidentally it should be borne in mind that the country with the most wargamers is probably Germany.
Aerethan wrote: At a month old, this really didn't need to get dragged back to the first page.
Not your call Aerethan. A month is not all that long, thread stays open.
Thanks!
Well then how about the part where the bump was entirely off topic?
Really?
So the broadcasting of a network television series at precisely the moment when many of the major figures - in terms of GW... Rick Priestly, the Perrys, Mark Copplestone, etc, etc etc, are in their early to mid teens - has no influence on the way wargaming develops in the 1980's and 90's?
And subsequently creates the impression, on which the thread hangs, that wargaming is more popular in the UK because of the numerous companies and figure ranges/rules that have spun off and out of GW. Not to mention the historical mini manufacturers of which many on this site are entirely ignorant.
A book I just read which goes a long way to explain the zeitgeist which got a whole generation of Brits (those currently in the 40-60 age bracket) into "Fantasy WWII" and therefore quite often into wargaming is Harry Pearson's "Achtung Schweinehund!: A Boy's Own Story of Imaginary Combat". (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/873387.Achtung_Schweinehund_)
There really was something in the air that made the whole imaginary WWII thing something that little boys at that time just "had" to do. There were numerous comics (Warlord, Battle, Commando, VIctor, etc.) and of course films and the stories of parents and grandparents that made making model kits, playing soldiers with your mates with toy guns, and for many also inevitably mucking about with dozens, hundreds even, of little toy soldiers made cheaply by Airfix the prime choice for our spare time - particularly as there were only a three TV channels at the time!
Whether or not there was such an imperative abroad amongst the pre-teenage boys of the USA before the invention of computer games (or GW!), I have no idea, but its existence in the UK, I believe, does go a long way to explain why wargames did and continue to do so well in the UK.
I'm curious what percentages of wargamers in the US and UK are involved in online communities and if that helps spread participation.
The vast majority of US households have internet access which in part drives all the video game obsession, however in personal experience I've found that wargamers that are active on forums is only in a small percentage. Most of the gaming centers around the local stores and their participation in online community is pretty light.
While I'm very active on several different forums and I sell stuff through my website sells stuff worldwide, very few people in the Chicago are even aware of my site or that I use Dakka as they don't use any forums. Anytime I'm at conventions a large portion of the people (locals especially) don't seem to be active online. Most of the people from outside the area however are online here or other forums which is how they are aware of events like Adepticon. But inside IL it's like there's a weird information black hole and I wonder what causes it and how it impacts stuff.
For example I've filled less than a dozen orders to customer in IL over the last year, half of those were repeat customers so it's maybe 6 people. Supposedly the Chicago area is the highest grossing sales base in the country yet nearly every other state buys more stuff from my site. I have more stuff headed to Alaska and Hawaii then I do in IL. (Meanwhile stuff going to the UK alone probably accounts for 1/3rd of the stuff I sell). Of the stuff I sell probably less than half of 1% of it goes to my home state, which is really strange.
I've never been able to figure out what drives the numbers the way they go, but I suspect only a portion of the gamers in IL are active on gaming forums. It would give the impression that there are far fewer gamers then what are actually present. As it seems only a small fraction of the gamers have an online presence.
I know that I've only ever seen games played at stores, never any local club (I'm sure they exist somewhere but if they do they don't advertise) like it seems are more popular in the UK. IMO that also contributes to the power gaming in the US as you typically play versus random strangers in pick up games at a game shop versus a game in your local club against somebody you know in a friendlier environment. Outside of campaigns and leagues, which some stores don't have or have very infrequently, there's little to do with any kind of narrative so the game becomes more like a competition where the only goal is winning not having fun.
1. Social norms. People who prefer to huddle indoors for long periods of time when they don't have to tend to exhibit anti-social tendencies when in public. These tendencies can fall anywhere in a range from shy to douche-bag to utter sociopath, which tends to drive off potential gamers who get to see what long-timers become.
2. Magic the Gathering. Hands down it has just as many complex rules, way more pieces (an estimate 2 years ago said 11,000 unique cards, I think thats over 13,000 today), and is a hands-down more expensive hobby since brand new product is featured every 3 months and your new product may have an active shelf life of only one year before it becomes illegal in the primary format. But Wizards of the Coast (the game's producer) has done an incredible job of setting up a weekly play network (Friday Night Magic) using local game/hobby shops. If I had to make an estimated guess, I'd say MtG is the primary profit stream of most game shops not located in a major metropolitan area.
I beleive population density probably can explain a lot of the diference.
Also just plain and simple availability and cultural differences must have an impact. The availability of wargames in the USA now and their marketing is far cry from thirty years ago in the USA.
My guess is that there were plenty of wargames available 30-40 years ago in the UK but this was not the situation in the USA at all.
There have always been lots of plastic soldiers available in the USA since the time plastic toys became popular, in the late forties I suppose but never any popular rules for them.
Even today a lot of historical wargaming clubs are practically invisible and dont advertise for members at all.
I think the fact that clubs are hidden in the US make it a lot harder to find people outside of game stores, and relying on game stores for gaming doesn't encourage any kind of camaraderie or getting to know people; it's quite literally turning up on a specified day with your army in tow and seeing who else (if anyone) does the same to get a game in. Compare that with a gaming club, even a small one with a couple of guys renting a hall or something - you can tell much better stories with regular opponents and weave a narrative campaign than you could just by playing a random person who happened to swing by the game shop on Tuesday after work to look at buying a new Battlewagon for their Orks, and just so happened to have their Ork army in the trunk.
I wish I could remember the name of the series but there was an old white dwarf series of articles about the antics of this UK guy's gaming club that played I think in the basement of one of their houses or something. I think the guy's name was Mike but I don't 100% recall. It was a great read (I think it was like 2-3 issues) and has always stood out in my mind of what the game is/was really about compared to playing pick-up games at the game store.
EDIT: Google-fu to the rescue! Guy's name was Mike Walker and he had a few articles about WHFB in older White Dwarfs (around 2003-2004?) about tactics, campaigns, and the like typically regarding his gaming club. What I liked the most about the articles is that they were just regular guys; as I recall the armies were painted to an average tabletop quality (as opposed to the often high quality shown) and they freely talked about how they messed up on things, or how they got steamrolled in a battle.
