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One thing that might affect the UK's playerbase might be the relative lack of self-consciousness we have. There's a lot of history here of fashion trends (punk, etc) that doesn't seem to appear much elsewhere. Being seen in public being a bit odd is hardly an issue here.

That, and no real opportunity to get our hands on firearms If the only guns we get to play with are 1/2" long, it satisfies the hunger to blow holes in things.

Maybe it's a historical thing. Images and sites related to war are everywhere, and the desire to tap into that may bleed into hobby time. Western Europe has been at war with itself, and outside, for ever. The legacy of that shows up all over. Most towns have a road, site or district called "The Butts", from when bow-practice was mandatory, but hardly anyone these days knows about that.

Maybe it's the ratio of chain-stores to independents. An indy hobby store might be more likely to branch out into selling wargames, where-as a big chain would not. Most towns have a model-train store, or R/C cars, or similar. Lots of this kind of store sells games, too. Have a look at the Dakka Store Finder for examples.

 Phobos wrote:
Here's a question for our UK members:

Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.

Most people who get told about my 40k knows roughly want that is. It could be a nephew who played one, or the corner of a shop they go in.
I would say most people know something, but most don't know that much.

 Phobos wrote:
Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games.

Perhaps not familiar but normally by the time you mention Games Workshop you see a small lightbulb flash over their heads and a response something like.....
'Oh yeah, they've got one of those shops in Whahereverington's town centre, i've looked in and there's just a load of people standing around tables. I've always wondered what goes on in there'
Or this
'My niece, cousin, goldfish does/used to do that, he'd spend hours painting the things, i'm not sure i'd have the patience or the eyesight for it.'

 Phobos wrote:
Here's a question for our UK members:

Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.

It's hard to say but there are several examples of well-known people (actors, etc) who have been on TV over the decades and either talked about wargaming or used it in programmes.

"Callan", 1967-72, featuring Edward Woodward has wargames in the plot.
Dereck Guyler, a popular comic actor in the 60s-70s, was a wargamer and president of the Society of Ancients.
Well-known film actor Peter Cushing was a wargamer and appeared in a short cinema documentary about his hobby in 1956.
"New Tricks" has a plotline that involves wargames, broadcast maybe in 2007(?).

Also there have been several series or one off programmes or media events specifically about wargames:
Seelowe (1974) was a big wargame project by The Daily Telegraph, covering the invasion of Britain in 1940, that involved a number of surviving WW2 commanders.
Operation Starcross (1979) was a speculative TV special about a Warsaw Pact-NATO clash
Game of War (2009) was a series of three refights of historical battles.
There was a TV series in the 2000s using an adapted version of Total War software to stage virtual wargames.

Considering the above it is fairly possible that a wide range of the general public may have at least some exposure to wargames.

Because in USA, it is easier for a kid to get a real gun than a GW kit

 Kroothawk wrote:
Because in USA, it is easier for a kid to get a real gun than a GW kit

cheaper too!

This is great news!

being a gamer for 20 years now and spending almost 3 years in the uk. here are my opinions

population density is key. England is tiny. it has lots of country side and lots of people crammed into towns. When I lived in the upper penisula of Michigan after college. I had a hard time finding games. wargames are hard to do without opponents.
the British are nerds for science fiction/fantasy. They have highly watched Doctor Who episodes on for X-mas like americans have football games on Thanksgiving.

The Britsh culture also is more accepting to the men to go have more nights out with the mates. In America, once you are married you are less likely to spend three or four nights a week with friends. this is not uncommon in the UK. In the states your free time is even more restricted once you have kids.

Zweischneid has a good point with his GW statistics. As much as some people hate GW, you can't deny that, if anyone, they are the ones who've made wargaming "mainstream" and I'd be willing to bet there are more people who play the GW systems that the people who play other wargames combined. I think the fact that GW is based in the UK has a lot to do with it.

And also, as other people have said, the population density is a factor. I'm sure the amount of gamers per km squared is far higher in the UK, even if it is simply because the UK is smaller.

 Phobos wrote:
Here's a question for our UK members:

Is the general population as a whole familiar with the concept of war games even if they do not play them? I ask because at one of my jobs of about 40 people that are there, I was the only one with any familiarity with them. Nobody had heard of them and the overwhelming majority of my coworkers were befuddled by the concept even after I spend some time trying to explain it to them.

Yeah, I think UK society is a lot more aware of wargames. Most people at my school (and indeed other schools - except for perhaps all girls' schools) know the concept of wargaming (usually 40k) i.e. that you play with little figures that you move around and try to beat the other persons' figures. Some people even know the term "Space Marine". It's usually talked about in a negative way, at least by the people who are inclined to ridicule others people or things (not having a go at these people by the way) but that's teenagers for you. I'd say there's probably 1 in 40 males my age who DON'T know the concept, but I've hardly gone around and done a survey.

That said, not being an adult, I have no idea whether or not this is the same for adults.

One reason for sure that I know 40K or WHFB are not popular in the states is that it seems there is no advertisements on TV for it like video games and also there isn't a large following on social media either. Young people nowadays in America are guided by TV and social media quite a bit, hence the popularity of video games and movies, heck I see commercials for trading card games and I'm pretty sure I've never (and I'm 33) seen one for 40K or WHFB or any other miniature game.

The lack of advertising and a good action packed app based game is the biggest issue for GW.

If it is all about the new players as they have targeted they need to have a presence where that generation is: online media. In North America you have to specifically look for Warhammer, it should be slapping us in the face if they want any market penetration.

I live in the u.s and spent a couple years living in spain which obviously not the uk but i did notice a different mentality. I'd say people in the u.s. tend to be much more focused on appearance and what people think of you. I knew a number of people growing up who took out huge loans to afford cars and other things that were way out of their budget just to look important. 40k is considered a nerdy hobby in the u.s and i think that might deter people who would enjoy the hobby if they werent so occupied with fitting in.

 Rotary wrote:
I live in the u.s and spent a couple years living in spain which obviously not the uk but i did notice a different mentality. I'd say people in the u.s. tend to be much more focused on appearance and what people think of you. I knew a number of people growing up who took out huge loans to afford cars and other things that were way out of their budget just to look important. 40k is considered a nerdy hobby in the u.s and i think that might deter people who would enjoy the hobby if they werent so occupied with fitting in.

Trust me, wargaming is seen as nerdy in the UK. Doesn't seem to stop many people though.

If wargaming is indeed more popular in the UK or Europe it's possibly because there is more history. That's not meant as any slight against the US, but the UK has a lot more historical battles than the US does, hence games such as Hail Caesar are arguably more likely to gain UK/European fans than US ones.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
It's because it's boring over here in England and it rains all the time.

Hilarious! and it holds true for the Pacific Northwest as well.

- J

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Because in USA, it is easier for a kid to get a real gun than a GW kit

cheaper too!

This is great news!

You joke, but I knew more kids in high school who made home-made explosives (with surplus grenade shells) than who played Battletech, which was the only tabletop wargame any of us had heard of back then.

The short answer is Donald Featherstone.

The long answer is that, when modern wargaming emerged in the United States in the 1950s, there were two directions in which the hobby could have gone. There was Jack Scruby's miniature-based approach and Charles Roberts' board- and counter-based approach. The board- and counter-based approached won out, with Roberts' Avalon Hill rising to prominence and mainstream popularity over the course of the next two decades. The miniature-based approach found a niche, but more or less languished until the late 1960s and early 1970s, when it evolved into what we now know as the roleplaying game. Roleplaying games exploded in popularity over the course of the 1970s, with the industry leader Dungeons & Dragons becoming a household name by the early 1980s. The success of the roleplaying game helped to erode the popularity of the board- and counter-based wargame and the rise of the computer-based wargame sent the industry (and the hobby) into irreversible decline.

Although D&D evolved out of miniature-based wargaming, by the mid-1980s, miniatures were no longer a major part of the hobby and miniature-based wargaming never took off in the United States. By the middle of the 1980s, board- and counter-based wargaming was rendered obsolete by onset of the digital revolution.

The situation on the other side of the pond was different in the 1950s. Donald Featherstone was enamored of Scruby's approach. In addition to obtaining permission to publish a British version of Scruby's newsletter, he tirelessly promoted miniature-based wargaming as a form of entertainment and a tool for education. He wrote a series of popular and influential books on the subject, advocated for the creation of gaming clubs, organized conventions, and even got the attention of the BBC. As a result, miniature-based wargaming attained a level of popularity in Britain that it never did in the United States. As a result, Games Workshop had an existing infrastructure to plug into and foundation to build on when it decided to cease being a mere importer of American roleplaying games and move on to something else. The history of British wargaming after the mid-1980s is basically the history of Games Workshop.

Now that was a great answer!

And clearly explains why many people here have heard of Dungeons and Dragons or at least recognize the name even if they have no idea exactly what it is, whereas Warhammer will often bring blank stares.

It describes the history well, however the question is why the US preferred map based games to miniatures?

I think awareness of d&d is also helped by the cartoon franchise that was essential child's viewing in the 80's. that was my first introduction to the world of fantasy!

 Eggs wrote:
I think awareness of d&d is also helped by the cartoon franchise that was essential child's viewing in the 80's. that was my first introduction to the world of fantasy!

I bought the entire series for drinking game reasons, you had a gakky childhood

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It describes the history well, however the question is why the US preferred map based games to miniatures?

I always thought it was the "esthetic" at the time was you only needed a reminder of what that piece was, a graphic representation seemed rather overdone in comparison.

I think also by using counters it obtained a "seriousness" rather than grown men playing with "toy" soldiers.
All you had to do is look at one of those massive maps with little cardboard counters everywhere and pretty much anyone would stop and go into mental overload.

If you do similar setups with actual models representing each unit, people can understand that and it looks like the toys my kids have so it is easy to belittle.

UK has a fine history of men taking very strange games and making them deadly serious so it all boils down to a historical comfort level thing and the ladies are happy they are doing that rather than running around the countryside with firearms, dogs and horses.

So you were getting pissed when you were eight were you?

 Eggs wrote:
So you were getting pissed when you were eight were you?

American beer is freely sold to children as the alchohol content is on par with a juice box that's been left in the sun for half an hour.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

There was a TV series in the 2000s using an adapted version of Total War software to stage virtual wargames.

Time Commanders. A show, which the BBC rejected our gaming club's application to be on it as we were coming from a wargaming club we "might know what we were doing".

True story.

Sorry to disabuse those claiming it is population density, culture, historical differences etc.

The answer is far more prosaic.

The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.

These allowed the growth of various manufacturers - Citadel for example - by mail order advertising.

As for why US companies are not more prominent - which is contentious, especially historically, Battletech was massive in Europe with events in Germany attracting upwards of 5000 players - I would suggest the reason is twofold; they are too parochial and the shipping rates are too high.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Yeah, but the key word here is "small". You're always going to have a non-zero number of people interested in the hobby (and determined enough to overcome obstacles in buying stuff), but population density makes a huge difference in how big that group is.

Perhaps but in my case the available population of around 1000 gave a group with 6 members. Population density does help of course but its not a vital factor.

Between my school and the one nearest by, there are about 5,000 students... I am the only to actively play the game. There was a single other, who no longer does, and two people who had "heard of it". I am incredibly jealous of your school!

Notably, Australia is pretty mad too, despite all their mistreatment from GW. With only about 1/3rd of the UK population (~22 Million?) they make about 1/3rd of GW's UK revenue. So I don't think population density is it. Australia has lots of empty space, but they game as much as UK-people do.

Actually the revenue made in Australia compared to England isn't actually tell you how many people buy Warhammer. Here in Australia there is around a 30-80% mark up on different models, so although there may be high revenue it's due to people here being charged a truckload more. $110 for a land raider? it's $20 cheaper in the UK, a price which adds up over time.

I watched time commander with my granddad when it was on, He told me that it reminded him of his training at sandhurst playing with wooden horses and little pikemen. He said the rules were some ancients wargame and its how they all learned battle tactics before being allowed to kill real people. That would have been in the late 50s so i dont know for sure. I do know that young rich boys in the UK were given toy soldiers so they could reenact famous battles back in the 1700s.

As for the availability/population density issue. when I started wargaming there was 1 store in my town that sold models mostly airfix/hornby/scalextrix and a few GW and ral partha stuff. My town has a population of around 15000 and at the time the nearest GW was in edinburgh which is a good 2 hours by car. At my school there was maybe 30 wargamers and most of us played more than one game and often roleplayed aswell. We used to have a wargaming club in the town until our gaming space was given to a linedancing club who payed double what we did for it and most of us drifted apart or moved onto other hobbies.

I think most people I know know someone who plays some sort of wargame.

Youngblood13 wrote:
The short answer is Donald Featherstone.

The long answer is that, when modern wargaming emerged in the United States in the 1950s, there were two directions in which the hobby could have gone. There was Jack Scruby's miniature-based approach and Charles Roberts' board- and counter-based approach. The board- and counter-based approached won out, with Roberts' Avalon Hill rising to prominence and mainstream popularity over the course of the next two decades. The miniature-based approach found a niche, but more or less languished until the late 1960s and early 1970s, when it evolved into what we now know as the roleplaying game. Roleplaying games exploded in popularity over the course of the 1970s, with the industry leader Dungeons & Dragons becoming a household name by the early 1980s. The success of the roleplaying game helped to erode the popularity of the board- and counter-based wargame and the rise of the computer-based wargame sent the industry (and the hobby) into irreversible decline.

Although D&D evolved out of miniature-based wargaming, by the mid-1980s, miniatures were no longer a major part of the hobby and miniature-based wargaming never took off in the United States. By the middle of the 1980s, board- and counter-based wargaming was rendered obsolete by onset of the digital revolution.

The situation on the other side of the pond was different in the 1950s. Donald Featherstone was enamored of Scruby's approach. In addition to obtaining permission to publish a British version of Scruby's newsletter, he tirelessly promoted miniature-based wargaming as a form of entertainment and a tool for education. He wrote a series of popular and influential books on the subject, advocated for the creation of gaming clubs, organized conventions, and even got the attention of the BBC. As a result, miniature-based wargaming attained a level of popularity in Britain that it never did in the United States. As a result, Games Workshop had an existing infrastructure to plug into and foundation to build on when it decided to cease being a mere importer of American roleplaying games and move on to something else. The history of British wargaming after the mid-1980s is basically the history of Games Workshop.

I don't agree,
I blame H.G Wells's Little wars and There has always been a strong scene of historical reenactment in GB (miniatures and real)
And off course the weather always blame the weather.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It describes the history well, however the question is why the US preferred map based games to miniatures?

Well, that's what the history was intended to illustrate. Wargaming simply evolved differently on either side of the Atlantic. In the United States, the hobby was dominated by board- and counter-based wargames and, later, roleplaying games. In Great Britain, historical miniature-based wargames caught on in a much bigger way. It's tough to come up with a really solid answer beyond that as so many factors were at play.

For example, while both the United States and the United Kingdom enjoyed similar periods of prosperity in the post-war period, the US entered into a fifteen-year "baby boom" while the UK saw a brief increase in fertility immediately after World War II before the birth rate declined to almost Depression-era levels. Those factors had to have an effect on the evolution of wargaming in each country. There's no way that they couldn't have

But what effect did they have exactly? Maybe, with larger numbers of like-aged peers in their only families, it was easier for American youth to find opponents for board games than it was for their British counterparts. Maybe smaller family sizes combined with rising affluence left British youth without immediately accessible playmates in the home but more time and money to spend on their hobbies, making solitary pursuits like collecting and painting miniatures or models more appealing. The end result might have been American youth predisposed to a board- and counter-based approach and British predisposed to a miniature-based one.

I'm not stating that those were definitive reasons, mind you. I'm just pointing to the kinds of factors that would have actually caused wargaming to evolve differently on either side of the Atlantic. Answering the question fully and in a meaningful would be a massive undertaking.

 marielle wrote:

The UK has a history of magazines, sold in high street shops, that have either been specifically about wargaming, i.e. Battle, or had a wargaming section Airfix Magazine and Military Modeller spring to mind for historicals. White Dwarf is the most obvious example for fantasy/sci fi - though their were others.

WH Smiths(UK's largest newsagent at virtually every train/bus station and every town centre) has now stopped stocking White Dwarf, iirc from chatting to my GW Account Manager it was because they were squeezing for more money off. Why GW didn't give the magazines to them for free or an insane discount is a complete mystery to me.
It was a first exposure for many of us (mainly due to the cool front covers) and a catalyst to go and find a GW store. I'm sure it's going to hurt wargaming in the long run.