Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Donut64 wrote:
I postulate that, no there aren't more people who play Wargames in the UK than in the US.

The UK has a higher per capita income, meaning that everyone has more hobby money than those in the US. Combine this with shorter travel times for games, and shorter travel times in general meaning less money spent on gas, the average US gamer for Wargames is going to have a LOT less money to spend.

This simply isn't true. A quick google search shows that the US per capita income is much higher than the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

I don't think there are any complicated reasons why gaming is probably more "popular" in the UK than the US.

1) Population density = more people available in proximity to you that share your interests. Even though the population of the United states is 5x that of the UK, the population density in the UK is almost 10x greater than that of the US. The UK is a much, much smaller country, plain and simple. For a rough comparison, the UK is basically the size of Oregon.

2) The tabletop genre was invented and/or popularized in the UK, so naturally there will be a bigger interest there. Ever tried to play a game of American Football in a European country? You get funny looks. It was created in the US, so naturally there is a greater interest for it here. Same goes for Tabletop gaming.

Occam's Razor.

 Palindrome wrote:

 marielle wrote:
[
And of course the Tyne Tees TV series the Battleground with Edward Woodward should not be disregarded in this respect.

A wargaming Tv series in the 70's, I never would have guessed that such a thing existed. http://wargaming4grownups.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/edward-woodward-battleground.html

Edward Woodward? You mean the Equalizer? I would liek to see this show!

 Easy E wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

 marielle wrote:
[
And of course the Tyne Tees TV series the Battleground with Edward Woodward should not be disregarded in this respect.

A wargaming Tv series in the 70's, I never would have guessed that such a thing existed. http://wargaming4grownups.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/edward-woodward-battleground.html

Edward Woodward? You mean the Equalizer? I would liek to see this show!

Indeed, but the problem is that it will cost you @£800 an episode for the TV company to give you a copy - and there are apparently copyright restrictions that prevent you from distributing it.

Which is a shame as there is a refight of Gettysburg using Britain's figures.

At a month old, this really didn't need to get dragged back to the first page.

 Aerethan wrote:
At a month old, this really didn't need to get dragged back to the first page.

Too soon?

Australia punching above it's weight again! YEEEAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Maybe American's have more choice of games?

 Aerethan wrote:
At a month old, this really didn't need to get dragged back to the first page.

Not your call Aerethan. A month is not all that long, thread stays open.

Thanks!

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
At a month old, this really didn't need to get dragged back to the first page.

Not your call Aerethan. A month is not all that long, thread stays open.

Thanks!

Well then how about the part where the bump was entirely off topic?

Wargaming is less popular in the US because this new generation is devoid of imagination which plays a big part in wargaming. Our kids want video games and crappy pop music(and have for the last 15 years). A lot of older forms of entertainment are dying here, even drugs are seeing decreased use among the younger population(which granted is a good thing, but the point remains).

I'm sure if there was a properly marketed and not hack and slash video game released with excellent online play then GW games would be more popular if only from the exposure.

Look at Call of Duty. It hasn't done anything original in about 5 incarnations, yet it is a top selling game every year. This year was literally "we added a dog" and kids went ape gak for it.

I'm sure the lack of advertising or marketing in any form plays a factor as well. Here in the US, the only way people are exposed to GW games is if they know someone who already plays or if they HAPPEN to walk by a store that sells their products, be it an LGS or GW store.

For all we know, the US has more players overall, but fewer per capita than the UK. We have about 5x as many citizens here in the US than the UK, so even if we had exactly the same amount of players, they would be 5x more scarce(using crazy simple math here, don't rage on me over it).

Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.

Also the current mindset in a lot of the US places little importance on keeping things around from the past. We tear down all manner of structures that should rightly be kept as historic reminders. We can't be bothered to keep many local landmarks, meanwhile the UK is comparatively littered with centuries old castles.

We have our perks, I'm sure. But I swear this current generation of "millenials" will be the destruction of our country. Nothing but a sense of entitlement and instant satisfaction from these kids. And that is coming from myself who is only 29.

 Aerethan wrote:


Also the current mindset in a lot of the US places little importance on keeping things around from the past. We tear down all manner of structures that should rightly be kept as historic reminders. We can't be bothered to keep many local landmarks, meanwhile the UK is comparatively littered with centuries old castles.

In all fairness American history doesn't go back quite as far. They still have historical land marks, they just have much less to choose from.

 Aerethan wrote:

We have our perks, I'm sure. But I swear this current generation of "millenials" will be the destruction of our country. Nothing but a sense of entitlement and instant satisfaction from these kids. And that is coming from myself who is only 29.

I guarantee you that people were saying that about your generation, and the one before that. The "Millenials" will likley say it about the next lot too.

 Aerethan wrote:

Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.

Without meaning to offend, this part made me chuckle, what a bizarre assumption to make.

 Osbad wrote:
One thing also that is different between the UK/Aus and US wargaming scenes is the location gaming takes place. In the UK and Oz there is a preponderance of independent clubs that meet in church halls and above pubs. It appears that this doesn't occur very often in the US where the norm is for people to be very dependent on commercial stores.

I think this is a huge factor. When you also consider how badly-run and short-lived many gaming stores are it makes for a fragmented community. There are lots of clubs that have been in place for decades, for example the wargames society at Edinburgh university goes back to (at least) the 50's.

Definitely, a couple of local historical gaming groups in my area that go back to probably from before I was born. Have persisted on the basis of (and seemed quite happy) collecting from companies selling their range in the back of wargaming magazines and trade fairs.

It's actually still kind of difficult to find an internet presence for a lot of the guys in these groups, although that has started to change.

What's the school club scene like in the states. I know I was a proud member of the Belfast Royal Academy war-games society back in the day and it was great!

We played mostly warhammer fantasy, some 40k and roleplaying. It's also sadly were I learnt to smoke which was a habit I only managed to kick a few years ago.

But hobby wise I think school clubs are a great way to teach community and grow gaming cultures.

Those Australia numbers are surprising, considering how royally we get boned down here. I pretty much live on eBay in an attempt to cut the exorbitant costs GW charges Down Under.

Edit: No makey words good.

Knockagh wrote:
What's the school club scene like in the states. I know I was a proud member of the Belfast Royal Academy war-games society back in the day and it was great!

It's pretty spotty here, to be honest. Some universities have some fantastic clubs, but they are the major exception rather than the rule. These groups could spring up, but the North American consumer, in both the US and Canada, need exposure from marketing campaigns, even if it was just on the internet. It's this strange catch 22 kind of situation where the clubs and groups could spring up and sustain/grow the wider hobby, but the marketing investments needs to be made first.

 Rayvon wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.

Without meaning to offend, this part made me chuckle, what a bizarre assumption to make.

Same. Seriously Yanks, next time you're feeling inclined to believe the Hollywood depiction of Brits as Good Old Chaps with ferocious moustaches who all drink tea by the gallon, play cricket, watch Doctor Who religiously, and are terribly polite to each other all the time; watch Trainspotting. It's still a fiction, but it's far closer to the reality than 007 or Lord of the Rings.

I also enjoyed the one about how bad weather makes us all agoraphobics who'd rather huddle in the warm huffing our poly cement than go out and play sports; I once played a game of rugby on a pitch that resembled a partially-frozen swamp, with the prevailing drizzle giving way to torrential downpours every ten or fifteen minutes, and I hate playing sports so you can imagine the lengths actual enthusiasts will go to in order to play regardless of the weather.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

We have our perks, I'm sure. But I swear this current generation of "millenials" will be the destruction of our country. Nothing but a sense of entitlement and instant satisfaction from these kids. And that is coming from myself who is only 29.

I guarantee you that people were saying that about your generation, and the one before that. The "Millenials" will likley say it about the next lot too.

Also, get off my space lawn!

 Yodhrin wrote:
[Seriously Yanks, next time you're feeling inclined to believe the Hollywood depiction of Brits as Good Old Chaps with ferocious moustaches who all drink tea by the gallon, play cricket, watch Doctor Who religiously, and are terribly polite to each other all the time; watch Trainspotting. It's still a fiction, but it's far closer to the reality than 007 or Lord of the Rings.

What!

All of my hopes, dreasm,a nd aspirations have now been crushed.

 Aerethan wrote:
Also, without getting in to stereotypes, there are certain demographics that undeniably will have a much smaller player base here in the US compared to the UK. We are quite diverse, but certain cultures within our giant mess of a country would generally place a stigma over wargaming as juvenile and nerdy. For lack of better phrasing: the UK has more "nerdy" white guys per capita than the US. So you lot have a more saturated market, whereas the US is far less.

If what you were trying to say (without getting into stereotypes) is that the UK tends to be less cliquey and judgemental then you may be right.

Most guys in my office have some familiarity with wargaming. There is a pretty strong boardgame sub-culture in Toronto and naturally wargaming is just a more specific type.

Soooooooo we decided the U.K just rocks more?

 Phobos wrote:
Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.

So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?

The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.

 kronk wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.

So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?

The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.

I'm calling you out Kronkster!

I want accurate counts and records on my desk by 4PM Thrusday or it didn't happen, and I won't be fobbed of with some expensive Gallup or Mori poll; door to door mister!

 kronk wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.

So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?

The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.

yeah I very much doubt there are more total wargamers in the UK than the US.

 kronk wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
Many of the wargames companies are UK based, and there seems to be more UK players than USA players, in spite of the population in the USA being nearly 5 times larger.

So what gives? Is wargaming a more "mainstream" hobby over there?

The UK may have a higher % per capita of wargamers than the USA, but I refuse to believe that there are more total wargamers in the UK than there are in the USA.

I'm curious as to why you believe this?

Incidentally it should be borne in mind that the country with the most wargamers is probably Germany.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aerethan wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
At a month old, this really didn't need to get dragged back to the first page.

Not your call Aerethan. A month is not all that long, thread stays open.

Thanks!

Well then how about the part where the bump was entirely off topic?

Really?

So the broadcasting of a network television series at precisely the moment when many of the major figures - in terms of GW... Rick Priestly, the Perrys, Mark Copplestone, etc, etc etc, are in their early to mid teens - has no influence on the way wargaming develops in the 1980's and 90's?

And subsequently creates the impression, on which the thread hangs, that wargaming is more popular in the UK because of the numerous companies and figure ranges/rules that have spun off and out of GW. Not to mention the historical mini manufacturers of which many on this site are entirely ignorant.

Odd.

A book I just read which goes a long way to explain the zeitgeist which got a whole generation of Brits (those currently in the 40-60 age bracket) into "Fantasy WWII" and therefore quite often into wargaming is Harry Pearson's "Achtung Schweinehund!: A Boy's Own Story of Imaginary Combat". (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/873387.Achtung_Schweinehund_)



There really was something in the air that made the whole imaginary WWII thing something that little boys at that time just "had" to do. There were numerous comics (Warlord, Battle, Commando, VIctor, etc.) and of course films and the stories of parents and grandparents that made making model kits, playing soldiers with your mates with toy guns, and for many also inevitably mucking about with dozens, hundreds even, of little toy soldiers made cheaply by Airfix the prime choice for our spare time - particularly as there were only a three TV channels at the time!

Whether or not there was such an imperative abroad amongst the pre-teenage boys of the USA before the invention of computer games (or GW!), I have no idea, but its existence in the UK, I believe, does go a long way to explain why wargames did and continue to do so well in the UK.

I'm curious what percentages of wargamers in the US and UK are involved in online communities and if that helps spread participation.

The vast majority of US households have internet access which in part drives all the video game obsession, however in personal experience I've found that wargamers that are active on forums is only in a small percentage. Most of the gaming centers around the local stores and their participation in online community is pretty light.

While I'm very active on several different forums and I sell stuff through my website sells stuff worldwide, very few people in the Chicago are even aware of my site or that I use Dakka as they don't use any forums. Anytime I'm at conventions a large portion of the people (locals especially) don't seem to be active online. Most of the people from outside the area however are online here or other forums which is how they are aware of events like Adepticon. But inside IL it's like there's a weird information black hole and I wonder what causes it and how it impacts stuff.

For example I've filled less than a dozen orders to customer in IL over the last year, half of those were repeat customers so it's maybe 6 people. Supposedly the Chicago area is the highest grossing sales base in the country yet nearly every other state buys more stuff from my site. I have more stuff headed to Alaska and Hawaii then I do in IL. (Meanwhile stuff going to the UK alone probably accounts for 1/3rd of the stuff I sell). Of the stuff I sell probably less than half of 1% of it goes to my home state, which is really strange.

I've never been able to figure out what drives the numbers the way they go, but I suspect only a portion of the gamers in IL are active on gaming forums. It would give the impression that there are far fewer gamers then what are actually present. As it seems only a small fraction of the gamers have an online presence.

I know that I've only ever seen games played at stores, never any local club (I'm sure they exist somewhere but if they do they don't advertise) like it seems are more popular in the UK. IMO that also contributes to the power gaming in the US as you typically play versus random strangers in pick up games at a game shop versus a game in your local club against somebody you know in a friendlier environment. Outside of campaigns and leagues, which some stores don't have or have very infrequently, there's little to do with any kind of narrative so the game becomes more like a competition where the only goal is winning not having fun.

I'd assume two main reasons.

1. Social norms. People who prefer to huddle indoors for long periods of time when they don't have to tend to exhibit anti-social tendencies when in public. These tendencies can fall anywhere in a range from shy to douche-bag to utter sociopath, which tends to drive off potential gamers who get to see what long-timers become.

2. Magic the Gathering. Hands down it has just as many complex rules, way more pieces (an estimate 2 years ago said 11,000 unique cards, I think thats over 13,000 today), and is a hands-down more expensive hobby since brand new product is featured every 3 months and your new product may have an active shelf life of only one year before it becomes illegal in the primary format. But Wizards of the Coast (the game's producer) has done an incredible job of setting up a weekly play network (Friday Night Magic) using local game/hobby shops. If I had to make an estimated guess, I'd say MtG is the primary profit stream of most game shops not located in a major metropolitan area.

I beleive population density probably can explain a lot of the diference.

Also just plain and simple availability and cultural differences must have an impact. The availability of wargames in the USA now and their marketing is far cry from thirty years ago in the USA.

My guess is that there were plenty of wargames available 30-40 years ago in the UK but this was not the situation in the USA at all.

There have always been lots of plastic soldiers available in the USA since the time plastic toys became popular, in the late forties I suppose but never any popular rules for them.

Even today a lot of historical wargaming clubs are practically invisible and dont advertise for members at all.