I was a big fan of Sternies in the last edition and I was excited to see the new kits and the price reduction.

What was not hot was the combi-weapon nerf, which made taking combi's 2 points more expensive, and the fact that in the background other units that can fulfill the same role got buffed considerably, to the extent that I can't see how using Sternies as special weapon delivery systems is worth it anymore. Analysis will go on this basis that you're using them as SWDS, I can't see much other use, so if you think there is another use point it out.

Why?

A Sternguard Squad in a Rhino (actually useful if Khan Scars or RG) or Drop Pod with 4 Combi weapons. -195 points.

Sternguard arrive, fire, severely wound something or outright kill it. They only get one shot at it though, and the only way to give them re-rolls to hit iirc is Tiggy. But I'd argue that seeing as how the squad is already inefficient adding him is a poor choice. If you get poor luck with your combi-weapons then this squad is basically wasted, both in points and in what'll-inevitably-occur.

Providing you don't get slaughtered you've got ignores cover rounds, 2+ poisoned rounds and AP3 rounds.

Sounds good, until you realize that other units pull the party trick far better:

Command Squad, 4 specials, Rhino/DP. -165 to 195 depending on SW choice

All you lose is the ignores cover rounds effectively, and you can fire the specials as long as they last.

Even better off is:

Bike Command Squad, 5 Grav Guns. -210 points. (alternatively 4 Grav's and apothecary)

Ok, this really is the nail in the coffin for me. You get almost twice the amount of firepower given by plasmas, TL bolters for a weaker flamer substitute (but you can also charge, too) and you cripple vehicles through immobilized results which you can finish off in the assault. Concussive works well to support assaulting units and in turn with abilities like a Rune Priest allied in with JOTWW.

15 shots vs 8 for plasmas (admit it, you're going to be taking them the most) which may even be 4 if your opponent is the wiser to their potential or you get unlucky with range.

Then you can consider that after you fire you can charge, that you're T5 instead of 4 for increased durability, you get a 4+/5+ jink (taking into account 'Scars or turbo boost) for taking return fire like Riptide pie plates. If you were with the alternative option you're also getting a 5+ FNP.

Ignores cover rounds are nice, but they're only AP5 and most units with a 5+ armour save will probably come in large numbers. Firewarriors with 4+ armour saves aren't particularly bothered (yes, you can use AP4 rounds, but if your opponent leaves Firewarriors in cover which will is almost certain he'll still be getting saves)

I'm sure if you were to dig even harder you could find even more reasons to avoid Sternguard now, but this is the limit of what I can think of for the moment.

Someone convince me otherwise.

I agree! Their 'big problem' is probably that they took standard Veterans and upgraded them to Sternguard.
Sternguard don't need Ld9 on each model.
Sternguard don't need 2 attacks.
But they are paying a heavy fee for those things!

I also think that the Ignore Cover-ammo is their best trait and to be honest I would use Legion of the Damned for that.

You're assuming that you're taking sufficient HQ choices to unlock all of the command squads you want, and never taking more than 5-man squads. You can take three squads of sternguard with no prerequisites, and you have the extremely powerful ability to take 10-man squads in drop pods and split them on arrival against two different targets.

Peregrine, what are your thoughts on weapon load out? I'm assuming combi is the way to go with them?

Do you take the heavy flamer that's available to them, or is it too expensive?

I've yet to start building mine and I've never really fielded them.

Im ill informed, disregard.

Command squads can take special weapons per the new SM FAQ.

 beigeknight wrote:
Command squads can take special weapons per the new SM FAQ.

Ah then I apologize, I hadn't rechecked the FAQ... Either way I'd rather take 2 normal biker squads, they can be scoring and split your firepower with more bodies.

I still love my Sternies.

I think everyone likes them as a combi-weapon delivery system, but personally I don't really care for them in that role much. If you're taking them in 5 man squads for the sole purpose of using combi-weapons, then sure, they get outpaced, but if you're using them as mop up crews, they shine.

They do need to be delivered to their shooting place, usually in a drop pod, and ideally not on the first turn, so things will have been can opened, but once they're there they do very well. Hellfire rounds will put serious hurt on anything with an armor save; hordes die nice and fast, while you can usually put several wounds on an MC by forcing a ton of saves.

The way I like them best is with Pedro as HQ, with a Dev squad or two on the back line, usually with lascannons or missiles, and a couple squads of sternguards in pods (with tactical squads taking pods but staying on the back line with one lascannon and dropping them empty so I can bring in Sternguard later). Devastators open up any transports or buildings around the map (tank hunters and +1 against buildings makes them amazing for that), and by the time the Sternguard are hitting the table, they've got a few juicy enemy units sitting there.

In addition, they're scoring, so if my opponent has a unit holding onto an objective, I can usually blow a large chunk of them off it, then get on there the next turn.

I don't even need to run away from MCs really, I just have to make sure my Devastators fire at them too. Sure, even with Hellfire rounds they probably won't chew off more than two wounds off a Riptide, but what if I add another 7 or so lascannon shots from devastators? Or a Wraithblade? I can chew off 3-4 wounds with hellfire rounds, and then finish it off with enough lascannons.

The issue with Sternguard is that while they're still incredibly versatile, they aren't as cost effective. They need to be used a little differently in 6th, but that's fine, they still do plenty of things plenty well.

So long as you take 3 combi-bolters per 5 Sternguard or less, the cost remains the same or lower, which is reasonable, given that 50 points for 10 combis is ridiculous and the fact that naked Sternguard squads were viable in 5th and are viable now. Or as "viable" as they will be given the current state of the game.

Their ammo is still pretty nasty, and it is now available on the cheap.

I dunno, I think the usage of Sternguard depends on the rest of the list.

Command Squads have a HQ tax if you plan on taking more than one. Some lists just don't want more than one HQ.

Lists that use Pedro Kantor make Sternguard scoring while Command Squads remain...non-scoring.

Sternguard with combi-meltas are expensive, no argument, but if you are running Salamanders you are likely running Vulkan and are also likely to be running drop pods. If you are, then the Combi-Meltas (all of them) become master-crafted. You get to reroll your missed to-hit rolls on the turn you drop in, then on the following turns you get to be more accurate with your special ammo (including potentially rescuing models from gets hot! rolls).

The bike command squad was mentioned, and I agree it's incredible...but it also doesn't really fit for a drop pod list

TL;DR: I'd use them over Command Squads with Vulkan or Pedro. Both can buff them, and both are more likely to be drop pod lists which the bike command squad wouldn't be as compatible with.

Depends what you want out of them.

If you are already taking a non-Chapter Master/Master of the Forge, then, a suicide Command Squad with 5 Meltas/Plasmas/Flamers is fine. That is, if all you want is a suicide squad. (then it's cheaper than a Sternguard Squad, if you go the melta route)

However, if you are making a drop heavy list, then 30 Sternguard coming out of pods is still a very scary thing to deal with. 10 Flamers/Meltas/Plasmas being shot into you point blank is scary. (assuming you take 10 of each, rather than just straight 30 plasmas or 20 Plasmas and 10 Meltas)

5man sternguard squad. 2 heavy weapons ( I use plasma cannons). rhino. =mini tank.

leaves heavy support slots open.

 Peregrine wrote:
You're assuming that you're taking sufficient HQ choices to unlock all of the command squads you want, and never taking more than 5-man squads. You can take three squads of sternguard with no prerequisites, and you have the extremely powerful ability to take 10-man squads in drop pods and split them on arrival against two different targets.

I forgot to point out you can also take a bike squad with 2x Grav Gun and combi Grav for essentially equal firepower (9 shots one turn, 6 after) and if you don't want to flood FA you can take them as troops with a Cap/Master on bike. They also cost quite a lot less.

I think Sternguard are still just as useful as they were before when building a list around them.

They are a unit that can effectively handle just about any situation outside of CC. Hellfire rounds decimate high toughness targets, they can ignore cover, and they also bring AP3 firepower when needed.

Now, compared to a Command Squad with Grav-Weapons, it's going to be dependent on the rest of your list. Specifically, what HQ you bring. Sternguard with Heavy Flamers and Combi-Meltas in a Drop Pod with Vulkan are going to be better than a Command Squad with Grav-Guns on bikes.

However, from a vanilla Standpoint with a Captain as an HQ, I do have to agree for the most part. Those bikes are going to be fast, tough, and killy. But, when the Codex dropped, we could see that bikes became one of the more competitive units now.

All in all, Sternguard are essentially the same as before -- good when taken in a list built to utilize them in the best possible manner. Bikes (in general, doesn't even have to be a Command Squad) don't really need that kind of support.

I thought you had to declare combat squads before rolling for warlord traits which means you can't deliver a ten man squad in a drop pod and then split them?

kevhplus9 wrote:
I thought you had to declare combat squads before rolling for warlord traits which means you can't deliver a ten man squad in a drop pod and then split them?

You are correct. But, you can still place all 10 models in the transport as 2 combat squadded units -- just have to declare it before Warlord trait is rolled for (which at that point, I would have likely already decided if I wanted to combat squad anyway.)

As a strike squad Ultramarines Sternguard utilising the tactical doctrine can be potent gaining re-rolls on the combi-weapon shot or hitting harder with special ammunition if that is what is required. They certainly fit the "suicide squad" archetype well in my mind and I suspect a lot of these will still show up especially given the character support and UM traits offering lots to the rest of your army.

As a holding force CF Sternguard can be very potent. With Pedro they are now scoring and can even be within his attack bubble. This can make them a very flexible force. Especially if kitted out correctly with the right combi-weapons. Afterall 4 Attacks on the charge will enable them to sweep clear the last vistages of an enemy stronghold they have shot up. Particularly with Combi-flamers/Meltas due to assault status. Throw in a HF and these guys can sit on the objective/in cover and proceed to kick out some very good firepower with specialist ammunition ALL the while any enemy wishing to charge will have to weather a storm of specialist ammunition/HF wall of death and then potentially 30 attacks coming towards them. I'd probably still pod CF sterngaurd using them as the assault element of my army after Devastators and Tacticals had opened up the enemy transports etc, however I'd be considering 20-30 of them.

Salamanders Sternguard are also superb. Combi-Meltas on these bad boys make them insanely flexible if Vulkan is included. With the master-crafted trait they are hitting slightly more accurately with the melta shot AND the specialist ammunition (I believe that is correct?). Need to deal with units in cover... check. Need to bring down High T creature... check. Need to open a tank.... check. Need to shoot up some MEQ without worrying so much about gets hot... check. Need to engage in mid-range firefight with Tau... check. Add in 2 HF's and suddenly they have an assault deterrent and potent flaming capability. Salamanders Sternguard in a Rhino are looking powerful. For giggles throw them in a Redeemer and watch your opponent squirm as you have a MBL unit that can engage anything he throws at them with reasonable success.

Coming out of the far left hand side of the field we have White Scars Sternguard. All the versatility of normal Sternguard however very capable in the close range firefight. Able to hold better in assault due to that +1 A and +1 Ld they can comfortably operate in the 12" zone knowing that a fall back from combat is possible at the end of your opponents turn. Allowing them to further harass and shoot him. Given a Rhino/Razorback and they can form hard hitting outflanking squads able to open up holes in the enemy battle line and/or remove backfield fire support elements.


Personally I'm not a major fan of UM Sterngaurd however CF, Salamanders and WS Sternguard can all be very potent either as a support element or the corner stone of your list. I'm currently really in a bind with regards what chapter to go for. I know I want these battle brothers in my army as I love tactical and strategic flexibility and they, very rarely I might add, bring both to your list. However I can't decide how I want that list to look out of these 3 chapters.

Combat Squads were changed slightly. The two squads are split earlier and are pretty much two separate units for all purposes, except one: two halves of one squad may embark on the same transport. Thus you can put both of them in a drop pod, land raider, rhino or whatever.

I have had ten man squads och sternies mop the floor with Plague Marines by forcing them to do far too many armour and feel no pain rolls, and that was when you got FNP on a 4+.

How about adding Legion of the Damned to the list of Sternie alternatives?

5 LOTD, Combi Melta, Melta and Multi Melta, 155 points, or combi plasma, gun and cannon for 165.

Drop pods have the added bonus of, you don't have to decide combat squads until the unit arrives from reserves.

 Goat wrote:
Drop pods have the added bonus of, you don't have to decide combat squads until the unit arrives from reserves.

Not any more, combat squading must now be done before rolling for Warlord Traits.

Crazyterran wrote:
However, if you are making a drop heavy list, then 30 Sternguard coming out of pods is still a very scary thing to deal with.

But less scary than 30 Wolf Guard coming out of pods. They're only 23 points each with a combi-weapon.

Super Newb wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
However, if you are making a drop heavy list, then 30 Sternguard coming out of pods is still a very scary thing to deal with.

But less scary than 30 Wolf Guard coming out of pods. They're only 23 points each with a combi-weapon.

And an entirely different codex

OP i agree. another thing you cound consider is the LOTD deepstiking with melta, Multi melta, and combi melta. (at least for anti tank) 155 points, and they ignore cover, but with there meltas. and if they survive (they have a 3++) then they can still shoot there meltas


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wich i just noticed dundas psted

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Drop pods have the added bonus of, you don't have to decide combat squads until the unit arrives from reserves.

Not any more, combat squading must now be done before rolling for Warlord Traits.

Looking at the BA codex FAQ is says Combat Squad immediatly before deployment. Is it different in the new SM codex? It's a shame that they removed the combat squad on arrival. I have to reread drop pod and combat squad entries in the book.

 Goat wrote:

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Drop pods have the added bonus of, you don't have to decide combat squads until the unit arrives from reserves.

Not any more, combat squading must now be done before rolling for Warlord Traits.

Looking at the BA codex FAQ is says Combat Squad immediatly before deployment. Is it different in the new SM codex? It's a shame that they removed the combat squad on arrival. I have to reread drop pod and combat squad entries in the book.

Yeah, new dex explicitly says before determining your warlord traits.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
OP i agree. another thing you cound consider is the LOTD deepstiking with melta, Multi melta, and combi melta. (at least for anti tank) 155 points, and they ignore cover, but with there meltas. and if they survive (they have a 3++) then they can still shoot there meltas


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wich i just noticed dundas psted

My thoughts exactly, though I personally would rather kit them out with a plasma gun, combi-grav and or multi-melta/plasma cannon for MEQ/TEQ/MC killing, “good bye crises suites and Riptides, I’ll see you all in hell.”

I actually like the new LotD, and I think that anybody running a drop pod list is going to want to consider what kind of mix they want between them, Sterns, and Ironclads.

Vulkan can buff them too (the Mastercrafted Meltas) which makes the decision a bit more difficult.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
However, if you are making a drop heavy list, then 30 Sternguard coming out of pods is still a very scary thing to deal with.

But less scary than 30 Wolf Guard coming out of pods. They're only 23 points each with a combi-weapon.

And an entirely different codex

Yes, of course. Hard to make comparisons across codexes. But it's the other contender for a drop pod heavy list, and both armies are space marine-based at least.

I think 2+ poison still beats the LotD in general. It depends on how much other "ignore cover save" tech your list has, though.

I don't see the love for command bikers.
135 point base, + weapons.
I'd rather buy normal bikers, get 2 grav and combi grav.
The cost per shot on the first volley is less for normal bikers, and with no ablative wounds, in either unit, the cost per shot for the 2nd volley will still be less for the normal bikers.
If you want to spend a few more points, you can make bikes score.

I think the chapter plays a big role in all this.
Go Fist, and the sternguard score, backed up by awesome centurion devistators. It puts pressure up in their face taking some heat off the devs.
With White Scars, 4+ jink bikes make core bikes most likely the best bet.
With Raven Guard, Jumping out of the pod into cover gives you 4+ cover turn 1, which might be worth it for the vets.



-Matt

Command bikers are cool because FNP bikers rock. Especially White scar FNP bikers.

Kangodo wrote:
I agree! Their 'big problem' is probably that they took standard Veterans and upgraded them to Sternguard.
Sternguard don't need Ld9 on each model.
Sternguard don't need 2 attacks.
But they are paying a heavy fee for those things!

I also think that the Ignore Cover-ammo is their best trait and to be honest I would use Legion of the Damned for that.

Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

The should have given them counterattack. That would have made them well worth it.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

Hence, my call for counterattack. That way, they can be as competent as grey hunters for more points. Go Astartes marines.

Kangodo wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

Veterans are Veterans though. GW has never differentiated from one kind to another outside of wargear options. I don't see the real issue here honestly that Sternguard can have a little boost in CC. It just makes them a little more flexible, and able to deal a little more damage if they get charged.

Your comparing apples to pears. Sternguard are really good, and not just in a pod.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

Veterans are Veterans though. GW has never differentiated from one kind to another outside of wargear options. I don't see the real issue here honestly that Sternguard can have a little boost in CC. It just makes them a little more flexible, and able to deal a little more damage if they get charged.

YES. As I tried to say in my previous post. The +1 attack can make them very flexible in how you use them. Although they are a primary shooting unit they can do this effectively from a variety of ranges. They can duel with Tau fire warriors at max range quite happily. They can brawl with mobs and even not have to worry about low end assault units. Throw in a power mace and/or fist on the sergeant and suddenly they don't need to worry about mid tier assault units either. Especially with the option for 2 HF's! The problem is that people have (for a long time) used them as "drop pod spam" or "drop pod suicide squads". Certainly you shouldn't be using any marine as a suicide squad if you ask me but that is a matter of personal choice in the game I suppose. However now they are definitely more of a battlefield multiplier. They are a very flexible reserve unit able to deal with almost any threat relatively efficiently if set up right. Additionally the primary role (objective holder, assassin, outflanker, battleline anchor) of the unit can vary depending on chapter tactics!

Personally the only thing I have always been sad about is the lack of the old "Deathwatch" HB with a stabiliser unit allowing the gun to choose 18" Assault 3 as a mode. That would be awesome with the new Sterngaurd. Although perhaps a little overpowered with CF Pedro Kantor lists lol!

Kangodo wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

If you don't notice the difference it's because you're not attentive enough. Vanguard already have heroic intervention, jump packs, and CCW+BP bonus to represent their inclination towards assault. Sternguard are different from tactical marines in far more ways than just the ammunition. They have higher leadership, the extra attack that you for some reason insist they lose and then complain about not having enough differences, access to ALL of the armory for EVERY squad member, can never score except with Kantor, etc.

Even if you took away special ammunition Sternguard would be way different than tacticals. They won't be as good as they are now, but still much better and improved from the basic marine if you ignore points cost. Consider that a veteran tactical sergeant costs 24 points and has no special ammunition, while a Sternguard veteran costs 22.

I agree that suicide marines is a poor idea. I have beaten several lists that I had no business beating because they threw away their assets.

nobody wrote:
I actually like the new LotD, and I think that anybody running a drop pod list is going to want to consider what kind of mix they want between them, Sterns, and Ironclads.

Vulkan can buff them too (the Mastercrafted Meltas) which makes the decision a bit more difficult.

Are you talking about buffing the legion of the damned meltas? Because it has to be salamanders, AND I don't think the legion can ever benefit from anyones chapter tactics.

Been testing out a Drop Pod army for some time now and the only real viable way I have been able to win is by taking as many bodies as possible, meaning less Sternguard and more standard tactical marines then anything else. However the best way I have found to run Sternguard is this:

-x5 Sternguard or x 10 Sternguard (Depending on Point Value)
*w/ x2 Heavy Flamers
-Drop Pod

Cheap and with their role only being that of an Anti-Infantry one focusing the rest of my army on dealing with any Monstrous Creatures and Armor that I may come across, usually in the form of x5 or x10 man Tac Squads with Multi-Melta, Melta and Combi-Melta.

I still like them though I admit that they are not a must buy anymore, I would argue that the only way to run them though is without any combis and maximizing bodies.

It was mentioned that you could, for the cost of 5 sternguard, get about instead 5 bikes with 2 grav, and while that's better against 2+, it really isnt against MEQ/light infanty or demon type MCs (3+ Armour is about even)

Admittedly the bikes score, but the sternguard can get a pod instead which, if you are going first, lets go get the jump on any MC hiding behind LOS blocking terrain looking to get off their super powers (aka: fateweaver)

So it mostly comes downt o long term mobility vs first turn alpha power in the sternguard vs bikes debate, and in my list at least I intend to run both.


10 sternguard in a pod is pretty potent shooting and should be 3-4 wounds against any 3+ mc or worse. Furthermore they get even better if you put any decent IC with them (tiggy, lysander, pedro),

so I think they still have a place and still rock, just in the right list and played the right way.

Orock wrote:

nobody wrote:
I actually like the new LotD, and I think that anybody running a drop pod list is going to want to consider what kind of mix they want between them, Sterns, and Ironclads.

Vulkan can buff them too (the Mastercrafted Meltas) which makes the decision a bit more difficult.

Are you talking about buffing the legion of the damned meltas? Because it has to be salamanders, AND I don't think the legion can ever benefit from anyones chapter tactics.

You are correct that they do not get chapter tactics. However, Vulkan's ability isn't a chapter tactic, so would make the LoTD Meltas Master Crafted.

Largo39 wrote:
I still like them though I admit that they are not a must buy anymore, I would argue that the only way to run them though is without any combis and maximizing bodies.

It was mentioned that you could, for the cost of 5 sternguard, get about instead 5 bikes with 2 grav, and while that's better against 2+, it really isnt against MEQ/light infanty or demon type MCs (3+ Armour is about even)

Admittedly the bikes score, but the sternguard can get a pod instead which, if you are going first, lets go get the jump on any MC hiding behind LOS blocking terrain looking to get off their super powers (aka: fateweaver)

To make the bikes score you have taken a Captain on a Bike. Pedro Kantor is not hideously expensive and will similarly unlock scoring for the Sternguard. So it totally depends. There is multiple ways of running them depending on the lip and Drop Pod is not the only way by any stretch of the imagination. Not taking Combo's also depends on the situation. Salamanders Sternguard with Vulkan benefit very heavily from having the Combi-Melta as that makes both the Melta shot and the bolter shots master crafted which is highly useful.

Orock wrote:

nobody wrote:
I actually like the new LotD, and I think that anybody running a drop pod list is going to want to consider what kind of mix they want between them, Sterns, and Ironclads.

Vulkan can buff them too (the Mastercrafted Meltas) which makes the decision a bit more difficult.

Are you talking about buffing the legion of the damned meltas? Because it has to be salamanders, AND I don't think the legion can ever benefit from anyones chapter tactics.

Yep it's the meltas, and vulkan's ability doesn't care about chapter tactics...all you need is to be in the same detachment.

So I saw this pointed out earlier, and was curious as I had briefly considered it in 5th ed. 5 Sternguard in a transport (or fortified cover) with a couple of heavy weapons. For certain guns it compared favorably to devastators last codex. Of course now both are cheaper, and since I haven't had a chance to nab the book yet...

Anyway, optional change of role to take some pressure off of heavy support.

Has anyone mentioned the neat Vulkan combo where he master crafts melta weapons, and since combi-meltas are melta weapons... the special ammo bolters sort of kind of become master crafted at the same time? Seems neat though it probably gets faq-ed.

still not worth upgrading a lot of them. Nice side benefit but overall not a big deal.

Yeah, the main reason I would put combi-weapons on them now would be to supplement my anti-tank firepower, if for example I didn't have enough Devastators or long range tanks.

With IF, that's almost never the case. 4 lascannons with tank hunter can pretty much can open whatever I need can opened nice and quickly, and I usually have more than 4 sitting around anyway.

The one time I might run more combi-weapons is with a Vulkan/Pedro list, where they all become mastercrafted. At that point, I'd probably try and shove 40+ sternguard into a list, combat squad the ones that arrive first turn to have combi-meltas separate from the regular bolter guys, and try to can open the transports and heavier vehicles with 5 of the guys while shooting up the inside with the other 5.

Honestly, I think the combies are overrated.
Just bare-bones sternguard can take down anything short of viechiles or Sv2+, meaning having pure sterns alongside some grav-bikers/cents and some anti-tank guns (preferably ones with optional AA)

DogofWar1 wrote:
Yeah, the main reason I would put combi-weapons on them now would be to supplement my anti-tank firepower, if for example I didn't have enough Devastators or long range tanks.

With IF, that's almost never the case. 4 lascannons with tank hunter can pretty much can open whatever I need can opened nice and quickly, and I usually have more than 4 sitting around anyway.

The one time I might run more combi-weapons is with a Vulkan/Pedro list, where they all become mastercrafted. At that point, I'd probably try and shove 40+ sternguard into a list, combat squad the ones that arrive first turn to have combi-meltas separate from the regular bolter guys, and try to can open the transports and heavier vehicles with 5 of the guys while shooting up the inside with the other 5.

Remember you cant do the vulkan pedro thing anymore, they have to be in separate detachments.

I like the new sternguard. They are not the 'point and click' combi-weapon delivery systems they were before.

Now they are a better fit to sit back and use them more akin to normal marines with special ammo. So keep them back and use their ability to pelt at long range, shoot AP3 shots, or shoot 2+ poisoned shots.

That gives a lot of tactical flexability that is pretty appealing. For the cost they are not bad in that regard.

Was talking to my buddy about the potential Suppplement Books that may be coming out for the new Marine Codex and we both came up with a conclusion that I think fits well into this discussion as a what if scenario, but one that I actually could see happening.

-If the Crimson Fists get a Supplement book, and it allows Sternguard to be taken as troops, not just scoring.

I honesly could see this as it would follow the pattern of the Farsight Enclave Book (Crisis Suits as troops) and the new Black Legion Book (Chosen as troops without Abbadon). If this happens I dont think I would run another version of SM as Sternguard are my favorite unit.

Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save. Yes sometimes you will get more but you will just as likely get none. Compare that to 4 melta shots in the face.
Bike grav guns are fantasic against a lot of things, but combimelta sternguard are 10times better against tanks. Its all a matter of taking the right unit for the right job.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads. There is absolutely no need to take the fairly expensive, one-trick-pony Sternguards.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads. There is absolutely no need to take the fairly expensive, one-trick-pony Sternguards.

That's arguable, but IMO the (Troop/FA) bike build is 2 Grav Guns, combi-Grav and Attack Bike Multimelta, which has good odds of causing much damage to vehicles and do decent wounds to MCs (resorting to the TL botlers for hordes, which aren't their main target anyway).

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads.

So you agree that grav guns wont be the new sliced bread against tanks that many believe them to be?
Secondly unless running whitescars, sternguard in pod have a huge advantage over melta bikes, and that is first blood. Sternguard have a nice possibility of getting first blood because they will be in melta range. Bikes, will not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daba wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads. There is absolutely no need to take the fairly expensive, one-trick-pony Sternguards.

That's arguable, but IMO the (Troop/FA) bike build is 2 Grav Guns, combi-Grav and Attack Bike Multimelta, which has good odds of causing much damage to vehicles and do decent wounds to MCs (resorting to the TL botlers for hordes, which aren't their main target anyway).

If you're taking an attack bike the price of the unit just went up to 200pts. And again they still dont have the same 'oomph' when talking first blood. I do totally agree that theybare more versitile, tougher, bring a lot more to the army and as scoring I would much rather take them. But podded sternguard still have their role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think about it this way - you are pushing forward turn 1 into the face of 3 demolisher cannons who dont give 2 figs to your toughness, dont care too much if they are immobilised and WILL put a serious dent in those bikes when they fire. You have 1 turn and to stop those cannons firing. Oh hello sternguard, how nice it was for you two squads to drop in and melta the arse off two of those tanks. What and you got first blood too??? Brilliant! It is a pity you wont live to see the next turn... but we will!
By saying that there is no place for sternguard you are comparing the units outright and not thinking about the potential wider battlefield and what role the sternguard can play better than bikes. Yes i know this is few, but the roles are there.

Poly Ranger wrote:
So you agree that grav guns wont be the new sliced bread against tanks that many believe them to be?

They will be, but if you really-really want those tanks dead then you still have to take melta weapons. Grav weapons are brutal against vehicles (two 6's and the vehicle is dead - that's huge!), and they will remain the no1 "sliced bread" biker special weapon unless GW removes their quasi-ignores cover or fixes the HP loss from stacking immo effects.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Secondly unless running whitescars, sternguard in pod have a huge advantage over melta bikes, and that is first blood. Sternguard have a nice possibility of getting first blood because they will be in melta range. Bikes, will not.

Well, if you run bikes, you run White Scars. And if you play for "nice possibilities" then even your non-WS bikes can have first blood from stray Rhinos, weakened infantry squads and such. They have a "nice possibility" to do that .

Yeh I suppose they do. Whats this 2 6's and the vehicle is dead?You basing that on a 2hp vehicle or have I been proper daft and missed a massivly important part of their rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh cr*p just realised... you're talking about immobilising an immobilized vehicle! I have been proper daft. Ok im a convert!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 more thing, could you please direct me to the faq which says they ignore cover please? This will be fantastic against skimmers!

Poly Ranger wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 more thing, could you please direct me to the faq which says they ignore cover please? This will be fantastic against skimmers!

It is not a FAQ thing. According to the BRB, vehicles can only take cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits. Grav weapons cause neither, so no cover saves RAW.

That is magic!

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 more thing, could you please direct me to the faq which says they ignore cover please? This will be fantastic against skimmers!

It is not a FAQ thing. According to the BRB, vehicles can only take cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits. Grav weapons cause neither, so no cover saves RAW.

But you can save against immobilisation from difficult terrain, which is not a glancing or penetrating hit either. (see Dark Eldar faq, which was about the only time it was relevant until more recently).

 Daba wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 more thing, could you please direct me to the faq which says they ignore cover please? This will be fantastic against skimmers!

It is not a FAQ thing. According to the BRB, vehicles can only take cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits. Grav weapons cause neither, so no cover saves RAW.

But you can save against immobilisation from difficult terrain, which is not a glancing or penetrating hit either. (see Dark Eldar faq, which was about the only time it was relevant until more recently).

The Dark Eldar FAQ specifically refers to flickerfield saves (it even calls it "flickerfield save" instead of "invulnerable save"). So yeah, you can take the 5+ invu provided by the flickerfield but it has nothing to do with cover saves... Or the damage effect caused by grav weapons for that matter, as the question is about the immo effect caused by a failed Dangerous Terrain test.

Is there anything else, besides Sternguard, that are effective in a drop pod.

Razerous wrote:
Is there anything else, besides Sternguard, that are effective in a drop pod.

Assault Squad with two flamers. Comes to 95 points.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Is there anything else, besides Sternguard, that are effective in a drop pod.

Assault Squad with two flamers. Comes to 95 points.

Melta dreads and/or ironclads are another drop pod favorite.

The humble tactical squad works well in filler pods for a late game objective grabber.

TFC aren't effective *in* their pods, but they're a great unit and a good way to pad out the number of pods you can bring.

Also tac squads in ultramarines would do well in drop pods.

Blow their tactic on the turn they drop in for some twin-linking goodness and go to town.

Then have the specialist troops in the second wave once you have de-meched some targets.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Yeh I suppose they do. Whats this 2 6's and the vehicle is dead?You basing that on a 2hp vehicle or have I been proper daft and missed a massivly important part of their rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh cr*p just realised... you're talking about immobilising an immobilized vehicle! I have been proper daft. Ok im a convert!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 more thing, could you please direct me to the faq which says they ignore cover please? This will be fantastic against skimmers!

AFAIK vehicles may take cover saves against penetrating and glancing hits, grav cause neither.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Bike grav guns are fantasic against a lot of things, but combimelta sternguard are 10times better against tanks. Its all a matter of taking the right unit for the right job.

There is less of a need for the melta-drop sternguard because there are less tanks in the game. There is really only 1 army build that the sternguard are useful against -- wave serpents. Even then the serpent player can just keep his serpents moving making the melta shots very limited in value (a 3+ cover save and serpent shield means 4 melta shots are not very scary)

However, assaults are very dangerous. Any marine can threaten a vehicle (land raider, monoliths, flyers excepted, AV13 walkers)

Yea, basic, basic sternguard units will I think be quite good, throw in 2 weapons to taste(my fav is heavy flamers) and then go to town.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 more thing, could you please direct me to the faq which says they ignore cover please? This will be fantastic against skimmers!

It is not a FAQ thing. According to the BRB, vehicles can only take cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits. Grav weapons cause neither, so no cover saves RAW.

But you can save against immobilisation from difficult terrain, which is not a glancing or penetrating hit either. (see Dark Eldar faq, which was about the only time it was relevant until more recently).

The Dark Eldar FAQ specifically refers to flickerfield saves (it even calls it "flickerfield save" instead of "invulnerable save"). So yeah, you can take the 5+ invu provided by the flickerfield but it has nothing to do with cover saves... Or the damage effect caused by grav weapons for that matter, as the question is about the immo effect caused by a failed Dangerous Terrain test.

That's because then, there were no other saves you could take against that test (cover only applied in the shooting phase for example). It is also a FAQ, not an errata. Flickerfields don't save 5+ invulnerable save, that may be taken against Dangerous Terrain; it says 5+ invulnerable save only — in effect, it's saying that's how the game works - you can take invulnerable saves against this sort of damage.

It sets the precedence that you can take saves at all against damage from sources that are not glancing or penetrating hits.

Since cover save is just a save that applies in the shooting phase, it still follows all mechanics of a save and is called a save.

 Daba wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just 1 more thing, could you please direct me to the faq which says they ignore cover please? This will be fantastic against skimmers!

It is not a FAQ thing. According to the BRB, vehicles can only take cover saves against glancing and penetrating hits. Grav weapons cause neither, so no cover saves RAW.

But you can save against immobilisation from difficult terrain, which is not a glancing or penetrating hit either. (see Dark Eldar faq, which was about the only time it was relevant until more recently).

The Dark Eldar FAQ specifically refers to flickerfield saves (it even calls it "flickerfield save" instead of "invulnerable save"). So yeah, you can take the 5+ invu provided by the flickerfield but it has nothing to do with cover saves... Or the damage effect caused by grav weapons for that matter, as the question is about the immo effect caused by a failed Dangerous Terrain test.

That's because then, there were no other saves you could take against that test (cover only applied in the shooting phase for example). It is also a FAQ, not an errata. Flickerfields don't save 5+ invulnerable save, that may be taken against Dangerous Terrain; it says 5+ invulnerable save only — in effect, it's saying that's how the game works - you can take invulnerable saves against this sort of damage.

It sets the precedence that you can take saves at all against damage from sources that are not glancing or penetrating hits.

Since cover save is just a save that applies in the shooting phase, it still follows all mechanics of a save and is called a save.

Invulnerable save isn't the same as a cover save. Just because they are both saves doesn't mean they are applied the same way -- you still have to meet the criteria of being allowed to take such a save (in this case, a vehicle has to suffer a glancing or penetrating hit to be able to take a cover save). So the only precedence (and even that is debatable) it gives is the possibility that an invulnerable save can be taken.

By your logic, I could pop smoke, and take a cover save against a failed dangerous terrain test if it happens while moving flat out.

Either way, this has been argued at length in YMDC -- you should head over there to voice your stance/argument.

Back OT:

Again, Sternguard are very valuable when building them into a list that supports the role they are playing. A podding unit of them with a couple Combis can really swing the game in a different direction -- use a combat squad to pop a transport, then the other squad shoots whatever is inside.

This is the same tactic that was used in 5th, and it's still just as strong as ever. The new codex, just simply added some more options and flexibility that make sternguard less auto-include ( Hello LoTD!!!! )

 Nevelon wrote:


Melta dreads and/or ironclads are another drop pod favorite.

Have tried out a dual heavy flamer dreadnought, made my Tau opponent want to cry!

 NickTheButcher wrote:
Again, Sternguard are very valuable when building them into a list that supports the role they are playing. A podding unit of them with a couple Combis can really swing the game in a different direction -- use a combat squad to pop a transport, then the other squad shoots whatever is inside.

I never thought of that, and I have never seen it used that way... dropping two combat squads, having one melta the transport and the other gun down the passengers sounds totally awesome to me.

Too bad it's a lot more expensive to do that now

Super Newb wrote:
Too bad it's a lot more expensive to do that now

Sure, if you go 5x c-melta, 5x c-plasma it's more expensive, but you can probably get a lot of milage with less firepower.

3x melta should crack open a tank. It's not 5 shots, but I have faith that it will do the job. Just use the special ammo on the passengers, or toss a HF or two on the squad. The points should end up less then it was before. While not the alpha strike it was before, I think it's still hard enough to work. Now that the price of combi weapons is not the gimme 5 points, we need to think harder about handing them out to the whole squad. How many do you need to get the job done? While overkill is nice, at what cost?

But lascannons got a lot cheaper. Crack the transport with lascannons from a dev squad and then use the special ammo on the passengers.

The real value of Sternguard is that they slay MCs through weight of wounds.

Also dont forget you can just take the two regular special weapons(that is my prefered option)

Since we can get combi weapon/special weapon in the regular 5 man squads for the same price it does not make as much sense to make the sternguard take it and give up their special ammo.

A couple notable recently added MCs make hellfire rounds even more important/useful. I need to do a headcount on lascannoni... sounds like a good ideas.

Lascannons are all kinds of win now. They were before, but now they are reasonably priced. All the MLs can go in the garbage can for sure. If MLs had flakk for free, then I'd have to debate.

Martel732 wrote:
Lascannons are all kinds of win now. They were before, but now they are reasonably priced. All the MLs can go in the garbage can for sure. If MLs had flakk for free, then I'd have to debate.

I agree, the las canon makes all the other options hard to even consider to be honest. My second choice is actually the multimelta, half the ML range but still way more reliable at its role.

The plasma cannon is still decent massed up, but I just like being able to cripple AV 13 at 48". And it looks good vs iron armed MCs. Some lascannon fire plus some sternguard poison and that tervigon is toast!

I think Sternguard still have a place. There's a lot of flexibility in Special Issue Ammo. They're not as good as 5 special weapon Command Squads are at dealing with the one type of target you kit them to fight, but having the option to switch ammo types and use them against multiple different targets gives you the tactical flexibility to send them at different targets more effectively. Ignoring cover is boss. Rapid-fire AP3 weapons are really useful. Wounding on 2s can hurt high-toughness targets without great saves. And 30" (15" rapid) AP4 bolters have a lot of use against a ton of different targets now. When you're selecting a unit with the sole purpose of wrecking a single unit type, LotD and Command Squads are better choices a lot of the time. But, if you want a unit that can do several different things well from one game to the next, Sternguard are still super-flexible unit choices. And if you outfit them with Combi-Weapons, they can still do the alpha-strikes against the targets you kitted them to beat just like the other suicide units can, but they have the added value of being useful against a whole range of targets thereafter. Plus, Pedro can make them scoring, for what that's worth.

Just my $0.02.

..........

Still wish these guys got counterattack.

Martel732 wrote:
But lascannons got a lot cheaper. Crack the transport with lascannons from a dev squad and then use the special ammo on the passengers.

The real value of Sternguard is that they slay MCs through weight of wounds.

Hmm, now we're talking! I like this plan a lot better than the (unfortunately now more expensive) combi-weapon bomb. I wonder if my poor SWs are going to end up with expensive weapons when their new codex comes out. :(

Special ammo also forces 4+ infantry to huddle in cover, tears up cover specialists like Eldar rangers, and in a pinch can gun down 3+ armor. I'm looking at Eldar and Sisters for the last function. T3 with 3+ armor HATES the special ammo.

So, yeah, Sternguard are in some ways MORE boss because now people won't be tempted to suicide them, which never worked against my BA anyway.

I like the heavy flamer option that Sternguard bring, but with ASM getting two flamers in a 95 pt drop pod, I just don't see it being necessary anymore. A couple combi-melta's in one combat squad to bust open a transport if necessary while the other bolters it to death is great. Tigurius is still a very powerful combo with a couple of squads of sternguard in pods. I've yet to see a Riptide or Wraithknight, Tervigon or other big MC survive very long having to re-roll saves against poison rounds. Although I love the new model of the heavy flamer, I just don't see it being necessary with the new ASM squad pod load-out.

The HF has always been the weapon I thought it might be worth giving up the special ammo for. While not perfect, it synergizes well with most of the ammo options.

It ignores cover.
While not poisoned, It is S5. So has a chance to wound most things
While lacking the range of the kracken bolts, it is AP4, so has something in common
It's not cutting through 3+ saves like the vengence rounds, but between the S and the number of targets, it should force a good number of saves.

It's an assault heavy, so fits in the aggressive, on the move nature of sternguard. You get the wall of death to deter being charged. Because let's face it, if you are in double-tap range, you are in charge range.

If all you are taking sternguard for is a drop pod flame unit, sure, go with the assault marines. But ignore cover is only one of the many services they offer.

I love my salamander Sternguard.

I build my list with 3 sternguard groups. 5-10 depending on the rest of the list. I keep them bare with a drop pod. Then I squeeze in as many combi-meltas as I can for Master-crafted Special Ammo. The sergeant always has the MC'd Bolter. Generally I squeeze in 3 Combi-Meltas which makes it amazingly expensive, but it gives me 4 MC'd bolters and 6 red-shirts (basic SG's) to soak up wounds.

Everyone has been talking about sternguard, Lotd and ironclad but no one has yet mentioned vanguard. In the new codex , their base 10 men is 40pts cheaper then the sternies and they come with heroic intervention.

What do you think about this loadout

(325)
vanguard veterans
-10men (190)
-3 melta bombs (15)
-3 lightning claw (45)
-4 storm shield (40)
In a DP (35)

 Senortaco wrote:
Everyone has been talking about sternguard, Lotd and ironclad but no one has yet mentioned vanguard. In the new codex , their base 10 men is 40pts cheaper then the sternies and they come with heroic intervention.

What do you think about this loadout

(325)
vanguard veterans
-10men (190)
-3 melta bombs (15)
-3 lightning claw (45)
-4 storm shield (40)
In a DP (35)

Unfortunately, I just don't see Vanguard being remotely as useful as Sternguard in most applications.

This is highly dependent on the rest of your list and what chapter tactics you are running, but Heroic Intervention is pretty terrible now that it's been nerfed, especially for the price you pay, and you still have to worry about about actually getting them into combat.

The price you are paying for the risk just isn't efficient or worth it IMO. I could possibly see taking them in a Ravenguard detachment with jump packs getting to use them in both the movement and assault phase but that's about it.

At least with Sternguard or LoTD, I'm going to reliably kill something with them -- Vanguard, not so much. This is even more the case when facing new codex's such as Tau and their crazy combined overwatch.