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 NickTheButcher wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
However, if you are making a drop heavy list, then 30 Sternguard coming out of pods is still a very scary thing to deal with.

But less scary than 30 Wolf Guard coming out of pods. They're only 23 points each with a combi-weapon.

And an entirely different codex

Yes, of course. Hard to make comparisons across codexes. But it's the other contender for a drop pod heavy list, and both armies are space marine-based at least.

I think 2+ poison still beats the LotD in general. It depends on how much other "ignore cover save" tech your list has, though.

I don't see the love for command bikers.
135 point base, + weapons.
I'd rather buy normal bikers, get 2 grav and combi grav.
The cost per shot on the first volley is less for normal bikers, and with no ablative wounds, in either unit, the cost per shot for the 2nd volley will still be less for the normal bikers.
If you want to spend a few more points, you can make bikes score.

I think the chapter plays a big role in all this.
Go Fist, and the sternguard score, backed up by awesome centurion devistators. It puts pressure up in their face taking some heat off the devs.
With White Scars, 4+ jink bikes make core bikes most likely the best bet.
With Raven Guard, Jumping out of the pod into cover gives you 4+ cover turn 1, which might be worth it for the vets.



-Matt

Command bikers are cool because FNP bikers rock. Especially White scar FNP bikers.

Kangodo wrote:
I agree! Their 'big problem' is probably that they took standard Veterans and upgraded them to Sternguard.
Sternguard don't need Ld9 on each model.
Sternguard don't need 2 attacks.
But they are paying a heavy fee for those things!

I also think that the Ignore Cover-ammo is their best trait and to be honest I would use Legion of the Damned for that.

Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

The should have given them counterattack. That would have made them well worth it.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

Hence, my call for counterattack. That way, they can be as competent as grey hunters for more points. Go Astartes marines.

Kangodo wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

Veterans are Veterans though. GW has never differentiated from one kind to another outside of wargear options. I don't see the real issue here honestly that Sternguard can have a little boost in CC. It just makes them a little more flexible, and able to deal a little more damage if they get charged.

Your comparing apples to pears. Sternguard are really good, and not just in a pod.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

Veterans are Veterans though. GW has never differentiated from one kind to another outside of wargear options. I don't see the real issue here honestly that Sternguard can have a little boost in CC. It just makes them a little more flexible, and able to deal a little more damage if they get charged.

YES. As I tried to say in my previous post. The +1 attack can make them very flexible in how you use them. Although they are a primary shooting unit they can do this effectively from a variety of ranges. They can duel with Tau fire warriors at max range quite happily. They can brawl with mobs and even not have to worry about low end assault units. Throw in a power mace and/or fist on the sergeant and suddenly they don't need to worry about mid tier assault units either. Especially with the option for 2 HF's! The problem is that people have (for a long time) used them as "drop pod spam" or "drop pod suicide squads". Certainly you shouldn't be using any marine as a suicide squad if you ask me but that is a matter of personal choice in the game I suppose. However now they are definitely more of a battlefield multiplier. They are a very flexible reserve unit able to deal with almost any threat relatively efficiently if set up right. Additionally the primary role (objective holder, assassin, outflanker, battleline anchor) of the unit can vary depending on chapter tactics!

Personally the only thing I have always been sad about is the lack of the old "Deathwatch" HB with a stabiliser unit allowing the gun to choose 18" Assault 3 as a mode. That would be awesome with the new Sterngaurd. Although perhaps a little overpowered with CF Pedro Kantor lists lol!

Kangodo wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Sternguard need that statline for fluff reasons though, as they are Veterans.

I understand.
But it shouldn't be that hard to write a short story about how they have melee/ranged-veterans instead of 'Veterans'.
Unless you get them in CC, you will hardly notice their 'veteran status'; they could give SI-ammo to a regular marine and you'd have the exact same.

I don't think fluff should be a reason to overprice units.

If you don't notice the difference it's because you're not attentive enough. Vanguard already have heroic intervention, jump packs, and CCW+BP bonus to represent their inclination towards assault. Sternguard are different from tactical marines in far more ways than just the ammunition. They have higher leadership, the extra attack that you for some reason insist they lose and then complain about not having enough differences, access to ALL of the armory for EVERY squad member, can never score except with Kantor, etc.

Even if you took away special ammunition Sternguard would be way different than tacticals. They won't be as good as they are now, but still much better and improved from the basic marine if you ignore points cost. Consider that a veteran tactical sergeant costs 24 points and has no special ammunition, while a Sternguard veteran costs 22.

I agree that suicide marines is a poor idea. I have beaten several lists that I had no business beating because they threw away their assets.

nobody wrote:
I actually like the new LotD, and I think that anybody running a drop pod list is going to want to consider what kind of mix they want between them, Sterns, and Ironclads.

Vulkan can buff them too (the Mastercrafted Meltas) which makes the decision a bit more difficult.

Are you talking about buffing the legion of the damned meltas? Because it has to be salamanders, AND I don't think the legion can ever benefit from anyones chapter tactics.

Been testing out a Drop Pod army for some time now and the only real viable way I have been able to win is by taking as many bodies as possible, meaning less Sternguard and more standard tactical marines then anything else. However the best way I have found to run Sternguard is this:

-x5 Sternguard or x 10 Sternguard (Depending on Point Value)
*w/ x2 Heavy Flamers
-Drop Pod

Cheap and with their role only being that of an Anti-Infantry one focusing the rest of my army on dealing with any Monstrous Creatures and Armor that I may come across, usually in the form of x5 or x10 man Tac Squads with Multi-Melta, Melta and Combi-Melta.

I still like them though I admit that they are not a must buy anymore, I would argue that the only way to run them though is without any combis and maximizing bodies.

It was mentioned that you could, for the cost of 5 sternguard, get about instead 5 bikes with 2 grav, and while that's better against 2+, it really isnt against MEQ/light infanty or demon type MCs (3+ Armour is about even)

Admittedly the bikes score, but the sternguard can get a pod instead which, if you are going first, lets go get the jump on any MC hiding behind LOS blocking terrain looking to get off their super powers (aka: fateweaver)

So it mostly comes downt o long term mobility vs first turn alpha power in the sternguard vs bikes debate, and in my list at least I intend to run both.


10 sternguard in a pod is pretty potent shooting and should be 3-4 wounds against any 3+ mc or worse. Furthermore they get even better if you put any decent IC with them (tiggy, lysander, pedro),

so I think they still have a place and still rock, just in the right list and played the right way.

Orock wrote:

nobody wrote:
I actually like the new LotD, and I think that anybody running a drop pod list is going to want to consider what kind of mix they want between them, Sterns, and Ironclads.

Vulkan can buff them too (the Mastercrafted Meltas) which makes the decision a bit more difficult.

Are you talking about buffing the legion of the damned meltas? Because it has to be salamanders, AND I don't think the legion can ever benefit from anyones chapter tactics.

You are correct that they do not get chapter tactics. However, Vulkan's ability isn't a chapter tactic, so would make the LoTD Meltas Master Crafted.

Largo39 wrote:
I still like them though I admit that they are not a must buy anymore, I would argue that the only way to run them though is without any combis and maximizing bodies.

It was mentioned that you could, for the cost of 5 sternguard, get about instead 5 bikes with 2 grav, and while that's better against 2+, it really isnt against MEQ/light infanty or demon type MCs (3+ Armour is about even)

Admittedly the bikes score, but the sternguard can get a pod instead which, if you are going first, lets go get the jump on any MC hiding behind LOS blocking terrain looking to get off their super powers (aka: fateweaver)

To make the bikes score you have taken a Captain on a Bike. Pedro Kantor is not hideously expensive and will similarly unlock scoring for the Sternguard. So it totally depends. There is multiple ways of running them depending on the lip and Drop Pod is not the only way by any stretch of the imagination. Not taking Combo's also depends on the situation. Salamanders Sternguard with Vulkan benefit very heavily from having the Combi-Melta as that makes both the Melta shot and the bolter shots master crafted which is highly useful.

Orock wrote:

nobody wrote:
I actually like the new LotD, and I think that anybody running a drop pod list is going to want to consider what kind of mix they want between them, Sterns, and Ironclads.

Vulkan can buff them too (the Mastercrafted Meltas) which makes the decision a bit more difficult.

Are you talking about buffing the legion of the damned meltas? Because it has to be salamanders, AND I don't think the legion can ever benefit from anyones chapter tactics.

Yep it's the meltas, and vulkan's ability doesn't care about chapter tactics...all you need is to be in the same detachment.

So I saw this pointed out earlier, and was curious as I had briefly considered it in 5th ed. 5 Sternguard in a transport (or fortified cover) with a couple of heavy weapons. For certain guns it compared favorably to devastators last codex. Of course now both are cheaper, and since I haven't had a chance to nab the book yet...

Anyway, optional change of role to take some pressure off of heavy support.

Has anyone mentioned the neat Vulkan combo where he master crafts melta weapons, and since combi-meltas are melta weapons... the special ammo bolters sort of kind of become master crafted at the same time? Seems neat though it probably gets faq-ed.

still not worth upgrading a lot of them. Nice side benefit but overall not a big deal.

Yeah, the main reason I would put combi-weapons on them now would be to supplement my anti-tank firepower, if for example I didn't have enough Devastators or long range tanks.

With IF, that's almost never the case. 4 lascannons with tank hunter can pretty much can open whatever I need can opened nice and quickly, and I usually have more than 4 sitting around anyway.

The one time I might run more combi-weapons is with a Vulkan/Pedro list, where they all become mastercrafted. At that point, I'd probably try and shove 40+ sternguard into a list, combat squad the ones that arrive first turn to have combi-meltas separate from the regular bolter guys, and try to can open the transports and heavier vehicles with 5 of the guys while shooting up the inside with the other 5.

Honestly, I think the combies are overrated.
Just bare-bones sternguard can take down anything short of viechiles or Sv2+, meaning having pure sterns alongside some grav-bikers/cents and some anti-tank guns (preferably ones with optional AA)

DogofWar1 wrote:
Yeah, the main reason I would put combi-weapons on them now would be to supplement my anti-tank firepower, if for example I didn't have enough Devastators or long range tanks.

With IF, that's almost never the case. 4 lascannons with tank hunter can pretty much can open whatever I need can opened nice and quickly, and I usually have more than 4 sitting around anyway.

The one time I might run more combi-weapons is with a Vulkan/Pedro list, where they all become mastercrafted. At that point, I'd probably try and shove 40+ sternguard into a list, combat squad the ones that arrive first turn to have combi-meltas separate from the regular bolter guys, and try to can open the transports and heavier vehicles with 5 of the guys while shooting up the inside with the other 5.

Remember you cant do the vulkan pedro thing anymore, they have to be in separate detachments.

I like the new sternguard. They are not the 'point and click' combi-weapon delivery systems they were before.

Now they are a better fit to sit back and use them more akin to normal marines with special ammo. So keep them back and use their ability to pelt at long range, shoot AP3 shots, or shoot 2+ poisoned shots.

That gives a lot of tactical flexability that is pretty appealing. For the cost they are not bad in that regard.

Was talking to my buddy about the potential Suppplement Books that may be coming out for the new Marine Codex and we both came up with a conclusion that I think fits well into this discussion as a what if scenario, but one that I actually could see happening.

-If the Crimson Fists get a Supplement book, and it allows Sternguard to be taken as troops, not just scoring.

I honesly could see this as it would follow the pattern of the Farsight Enclave Book (Crisis Suits as troops) and the new Black Legion Book (Chosen as troops without Abbadon). If this happens I dont think I would run another version of SM as Sternguard are my favorite unit.

Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save. Yes sometimes you will get more but you will just as likely get none. Compare that to 4 melta shots in the face.
Bike grav guns are fantasic against a lot of things, but combimelta sternguard are 10times better against tanks. Its all a matter of taking the right unit for the right job.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads. There is absolutely no need to take the fairly expensive, one-trick-pony Sternguards.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads. There is absolutely no need to take the fairly expensive, one-trick-pony Sternguards.

That's arguable, but IMO the (Troop/FA) bike build is 2 Grav Guns, combi-Grav and Attack Bike Multimelta, which has good odds of causing much damage to vehicles and do decent wounds to MCs (resorting to the TL botlers for hordes, which aren't their main target anyway).

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads.

So you agree that grav guns wont be the new sliced bread against tanks that many believe them to be?
Secondly unless running whitescars, sternguard in pod have a huge advantage over melta bikes, and that is first blood. Sternguard have a nice possibility of getting first blood because they will be in melta range. Bikes, will not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daba wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes I know grav gun bikes will be awsome against armoured infantry and mcs (especially riptides). But they will be nothing compared to sternguard against tanks! A bike squad with 2 grav guns and a combi grav gets 9 shots, 6 hit, 1 hull point taken off and an immobilized result caused, IF the opponent fails their cover save..

As far as I know, vehicles cannot take cover saves against grav shots. And if your biker army wants to go tank huntign then take a full-melta biker command squad or take combi-meltas on the bike squads. There is absolutely no need to take the fairly expensive, one-trick-pony Sternguards.

That's arguable, but IMO the (Troop/FA) bike build is 2 Grav Guns, combi-Grav and Attack Bike Multimelta, which has good odds of causing much damage to vehicles and do decent wounds to MCs (resorting to the TL botlers for hordes, which aren't their main target anyway).

If you're taking an attack bike the price of the unit just went up to 200pts. And again they still dont have the same 'oomph' when talking first blood. I do totally agree that theybare more versitile, tougher, bring a lot more to the army and as scoring I would much rather take them. But podded sternguard still have their role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think about it this way - you are pushing forward turn 1 into the face of 3 demolisher cannons who dont give 2 figs to your toughness, dont care too much if they are immobilised and WILL put a serious dent in those bikes when they fire. You have 1 turn and to stop those cannons firing. Oh hello sternguard, how nice it was for you two squads to drop in and melta the arse off two of those tanks. What and you got first blood too??? Brilliant! It is a pity you wont live to see the next turn... but we will!
By saying that there is no place for sternguard you are comparing the units outright and not thinking about the potential wider battlefield and what role the sternguard can play better than bikes. Yes i know this is few, but the roles are there.