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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Meanwhile in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
http://www.wavy.com/news/local/va-beach/has-zero-tolerance-gone-too-far
A suspended seventh grade Virginia Beach student will find out soon if he is expelled for the rest of the year for shooting an airsoft gun.
Like thousands of others in Hampton Roads, Khalid Caraballo plays with airsoft guns. Caraballo and his friend Aidan were suspended because they shot two other friends who were with them while playing with the guns as they waited for the school bus.
The two seventh graders say they never went to the bus stop; they fired the airsoft guns while on Caraballo's private property.
Aidan’s father, Tim Clark, told WAVY.com what happened next lacks commons sense. The children were suspended for possession, handling and use of a firearm.
Khalid's mother, Solangel Caraballo, thinks it is ridiculous the Virginia Beach City Public School System suspended her 13-year-old son and Aidan because they were firing a spring-driven airsoft gun on the Caraballo's posted private property. "My son is my private property. He does not become the school's property until he goes to the bus stop, gets on the bus, and goes to school."
The bus stop in question is 70 yards from the Caraballo's front yard.
Solangel Caraballo was not at home when this incident occurred. She was taking her young son to a Head Start class. She left her 16-year -old daughter in charge.
Khalid and Aiden aren't only suspended, they were recommended to be expelled for a year for "possession, handling and use of a firearm."
This story that addresses Zero Tolerance extending to private property began on September 9 with a 911 call from a concerned citizen.
A neighbor saw Khalid shooting the airsoft gun in his front yard. She told the dispatcher, "He is pointing the gun, and it looks like there's a target in a tree in his front yard".
WAVY.com located the 911 caller and spoke to her. She confirmed Khalid was taking target practice using a zombie hunter airsoft gun to kill the zombies. There was also a net behind the target to catch the plastic pellets.
The caller also knew the gun wasn't real and said so, "This is not a real one, but it makes people uncomfortable. I know that it makes me (uncomfortable), as a mom, to see a boy pointing a gun," she told the 911 dispatcher.
The airsoft guns are designed to be non-lethal. Plastic pellets are used, and not copper bb's.
Ironically, that 911 caller's son was playing with Khalid and Aidan in the Caraballo front yard on September 12. There were six children playing in an airsoft gun war. "We see the bus come. We put the gun down. We did not take the airsoft gun to the bus stop. We did not take the gun to school," Khalid explained.
Aidan admits shooting the caller's son in the arm, and Khalid admits shooting another friend in the back. "He knew we had the airsoft gun. He knew we were playing. He knew people were getting shot. We were shooting at the tree, but he still came and even after he was shot he still played," referring to the son of the 911 caller.
WAVY.com reached out to the principal of Larkspur Middle School, Matthew Delaney. In a letter obtained by WAVY.com he said his investigation found the "children were firing pellet guns at each other, and at people near the bus stop." The letter from Delaney says one child “was only 10 feet from the bus stop, and ran from the shots being fired, but was still hit."
Khalid insists all the shots fired were on his private property. The three children firing the guns were suspended. The three others who did not fire the guns were not suspended.
Khalid thinks it’s unfair. "Yes, it's unfair because we were in our yard. This had nothing to do with school. I didn't have anything at school at anytime."
The Virginia Beach City Code isn't clear, and goes back and forth. It reads no person "shall...discharge any firearm, spring-propelled rifle or pistol...within...150 yards of any building." Then it reads "no person shall use a pneumatic gun except at approved shooting ranges or within private property."
Solangel says, "That is exactly my point. It is private property."
However, the Code also requires shooting with "permission of the owner." In this case, the parent is the owner, and she did not give her son, Khalid, permission to fire the gun. He disobeyed her.
"How dare he disobey me, but this is a home issue. It's not a school issue and it won't happen again. He will never do this again," Solangel says looking back at Khalid with a stern face.
Virginia Beach Police say they do not proactively seek out to enforce this code unless "the juveniles are not exercising reasonable care." Reasonable care is defined as "the gun is discharged in a manner so the projectile is contained on the property by a fence or backstop."
Police are not charging anyone in this case. They would not discuss the specifics because the people involved are juveniles.
Khalid said he will never do this again. "It's terrible. I won't get the chance to go to a good college. It's
on your school record. The school said I had possession of a firearm. They aren't going to ask me any questions. They are going to think it was a real gun, and I was trying to hurt someone. They will say 'oh, we can't accept you.' "
More then a little ridiculous really, and I'm shocked VA/Va Beach have laws to cover airsoft toys. Hell in Middle School and School much of my weekends and large parts of my weekdays were involved in protracted airsoft and paintball battles and our toys were certainly more worrisome both from a "potential damage caused" and "looks" stand point. While paintball guns are pretty clearly paintball guns, those suckers hurt! and since my band of buddies were all military fan boys (of the eight of us, four enlisted, one went to ROTC, one joined the Fire Academy and the other two still play competitive airsoft)
For reference this was my airsoft rifle growing up, a Tokyo Marui M16A2
The only difference is it had an orange tip as required by local law. The only police interaction we got out of it was the Sheriff's Deputy who lived up the street wanted to see our gear, and make sure we were being safe, then he borrowed a pair of glasses and spent about 45 minutes playing with us and teaching us good stances and stuff.
Paintball markers looked like this stripped of hopper and gas tank.
Back to the actual situation, sounds like this young boy and his friends were having fun, and he was being a lot safer then we ever were back in the day. This is a massive overreaction by the school and well out of their jurisdiction.
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Post by: col. krazy kenny
I hope the parents hire a lawyer to handle this.Because the mom has a very good point.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
I read it wrong at first, If they where paying Airsoft at the bus stop that might be a problem(Here In Cali the schools are responsible for you one you leave your parents sight and until you get home.)
But yeah this is stupid.
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Post by: djones520
When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
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Post by: xole
 djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
That line was crossed with the internet.
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Post by: Kanluwen
djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
It's not the question of "private property" but rather when exactly the kids become the responsibility of the school system.
It is always amusing that when it goes against their kids, parents are against the school taking responsibility too soon but when it goes for their kids they can't wait to shovel their kids off to the school system.
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Post by: sebster
The article is called 'zero tolerance gone too far'.
Well yeah, that's what zero tolerance is - taking the normal notion of punishment being proportionate to the crime and rejecting it, in favour of going too far and not tolerating any kind of misbehaviour at all. It's just a terrible, terrible idea, and one that needs to be dumped as soon as possible.
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Post by: djones520
 Kanluwen wrote: djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
It's not the question of "private property" but rather when exactly the kids become the responsibility of the school system.
It is always amusing that when it goes against their kids, parents are against the school taking responsibility too soon but when it goes for their kids they can't wait to shovel their kids off to the school system.
You're assuming these parents are the type who want to shovel their kids off.
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Post by: Kanluwen
djones520 wrote: Kanluwen wrote: djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
It's not the question of "private property" but rather when exactly the kids become the responsibility of the school system.
It is always amusing that when it goes against their kids, parents are against the school taking responsibility too soon but when it goes for their kids they can't wait to shovel their kids off to the school system.
You're assuming these parents are the type who want to shovel their kids off.
No actually I'm not. I'm saying that "when it goes against their kids, parents are against the school taking responsibility too soon".
With the usual divergence of "let's play the context game" out of the way, it's not unheard for a school system to be considered "in session" starting when the kids leave the door to go to the bus stop. I know that it got me in trouble a few times in middle school when there was a fight at the bus stop--which was the end of my driveway--when the bus would be pulling up.
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Post by: motyak
To be honest I'm amazed Khalid is alive, last I saw he was dead on a table in Irenicus' dungeon.
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Post by: djones520
 motyak wrote:To be honest I'm amazed Khalid is alive, last I saw he was dead on a table in Irenicus' dungeon.
I thought it was Dynaheir who bit it? Khaleed was to loved to kill off.
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Post by: motyak
djones520 wrote: motyak wrote:To be honest I'm amazed Khalid is alive, last I saw he was dead on a table in Irenicus' dungeon.
I thought it was Dynaheir who bit it? Khaleed was to loved to kill off.
Both of them I could have sworn...I'll play it through again in November and necro this with an answer (kidding mods)
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
That was my first reaction when I read the article too. Somehow the school is attempting to expand their jurisdiction by saying that the children involved were on their way to school
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Post by: djones520
 Dreadclaw69 wrote: djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
That was my first reaction when I read the article too. Somehow the school is attempting to expand their jurisdiction by saying that the children involved were on their way to school
Which is bs. If that's the case, I want my old high school to compensate me for impound fees when a fellow student stole my car from school and used it in the commission of several felonies. If they are responsible for the students when they aren't on school property, then they should have been responsible for that.
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Post by: Kanluwen
djones520 wrote: Dreadclaw69 wrote: djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
That was my first reaction when I read the article too. Somehow the school is attempting to expand their jurisdiction by saying that the children involved were on their way to school
Which is bs. If that's the case, I want my old high school to compensate me for impound fees when a fellow student stole my car from school and used it in the commission of several felonies. If they are responsible for the students when they aren't on school property, then they should have been responsible for that.
Argument would probably only fly if they were considered a minor.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
djones520 wrote:Which is bs. If that's the case, I want my old high school to compensate me for impound fees when a fellow student stole my car from school and used it in the commission of several felonies. If they are responsible for the students when they aren't on school property, then they should have been responsible for that.
I agree that it is absolute BS, and that had the tables been turned and someone injured in the yard after school that the school would be denying liability, saying that the child was at home and not on his way home and still in the care of the school.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
I wonder if they will be trailed like adults 
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Post by: LoneLictor
Is there anyone, democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, black or white, christian or atheist, teacher or student, who actually agrees with the school in this scenario? Anyone? Anyone at all?
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Post by: dogma
 LoneLictor wrote:Is there anyone, democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, black or white, christian or atheist, teacher or student, who actually agrees with the school in this scenario? Anyone? Anyone at all?
I don't agree with the school's actions, but I don't disagree with them either. There is too much missing information for me to reach a conclusion, and the school may well have been legitimately covering its ass or enforcing existing rules.
Also, this:
"My son is my private property. He does not become the school's property until he goes to the bus stop, gets on the bus, and goes to school."
Really? I hope that is an emotionally motivated reply, or a misquote.
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Post by: Frazzled
The school has no standing to impose punishment of any sort in this instance. Hiring a lawyer to talk to the principal is the easy course.
Alternatively the school board should fire everyone involved. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kanluwen wrote: djones520 wrote:When schools start regulating what you do on private property, we've certainly crossed a line.
It's not the question of "private property" but rather when exactly the kids become the responsibility of the school system.
It is always amusing that when it goes against their kids, parents are against the school taking responsibility too soon but when it goes for their kids they can't wait to shovel their kids off to the school system.
No.
It was private property
The school is only responsible when the school is, you know, responsible.
If an accident occurred the school would deny liability based on the above reasons.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
So reading this...
13 yr old has an airsoft gun, is left with a 16yr old for supervision.
13 yr old shoots things.
School conducts an investigation which finds that the kids were
"children were firing pellet guns at each other, and at people near the bus stop"
The kids admit shooting each other, but deny being near the bus stop.
1)Where did the other guns come from in the school statement? Theres only mention of one gun.
2)Solangel Caraballo was not at home when this incident occurred. How can she say for certain her kid wasn't near the bus stop? Other than by taking his word for it - If I was 13 and had gotten carried away while shooting friends with a pellet gun, I'd've lied like hell to get out of it...(just sayin) (When I was a kid, I never got caught though...)
3)How the hell does a spring-driven airsoft gun equate to "The children were suspended for possession, handling and use of a firearm"
4)Virginia Beach Police say they do not proactively seek out to enforce this code unless "the juveniles are not exercising reasonable care." Reasonable care is defined as "the gun is discharged in a manner so the projectile is contained on the property by a fence or backstop."
Police are not charging anyone in this case.
If the police aren't concerned - then why should the school be?
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Post by: Frazzled
Its not even a BB gun...jeez
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Next up, 6 yr old boy makes a catapult out of underpant elastic and is summarily pre-expelled from high school for firearms offenses.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Nope, that's a siege engine. Expelled and turned into the BATFE for possession of a Class IV Destructive Device.
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Post by: Frazzled
Even worse, clearly he's a terrorist. Send him to Gitmo.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
The school may have a claim, depending on how dirty the undwear are.
And I do think schools are responsible for child when they are n the bus and going to school
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Post by: Spacemanvic
This is all a part of progressive conditioning to make the populace afraid of guns, as well as to widen the gap between child/parent. An 8yo was suspended for having chewed his Pop-Tart into a gun shape. This is just ridiculous.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
When I was a kid - we always got told whatever we trouble we got into would be a school matter IF we were wearing our uniform as it brought the school into disrepute.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  Spacemanvic wrote:This is all a part of progressive conditioning to make the populace afraid of guns, as well as to widen the gap between child/parent. An 8yo was suspended for having chewed his Pop-Tart into a gun shape. This is just ridiculous.
Pop Tarts = WMD. FACT.
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Post by: Alfndrate
 PredaKhaine wrote:When I was a kid - we always got told whatever we trouble we got into would be a school matter IF we were wearing our uniform as it brought the school into disrepute. Automatically Appended Next Post: Spacemanvic wrote:This is all a part of progressive conditioning to make the populace afraid of guns, as well as to widen the gap between child/parent. An 8yo was suspended for having chewed his Pop-Tart into a gun shape. This is just ridiculous.
Pop Tarts = WMD. FACT.
We had a similar policy at my grade school. We had kids causing trouble while in their school uniforms (no crests or anything, but we were one of the only schools in the area that made their kids wear uniforms, so it was pretty easy to tell where we were from). We were told we had to go directly home after school, we couldn't go to the park, etc... because the school was 'responsible' for us until we reached our doors. Edit: Hot Pop Tarts are WMDs, cold pop tarts are just sad 
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Post by: Frazzled
 hotsauceman1 wrote:The school may have a claim, depending on how dirty the undwear are.
And I do think schools are responsible for child when they are n the bus and going to school
And you would be correct. Once they are on the bus, they are legally liable.
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Post by: gossipmeng
Kids weren't on the bus yet.....
I blame all the soccer moms out there who are overly active in their kid's every move and then complain to the school every 5 minutes.
It's stupid policies like this that resulted in our grade 7 principal trying to enforce 2 hand touch football.... have you ever tried to play 2 hand touch football!?!?! It's called frisbee FFS.
Way too many carebears holding their darling babies too tightly.
One thing that made me lol though "It's terrible. I won't get the chance to go to a good college. It's on your school record."
^^ Is there any truth to that or is that a kid in grade 7 spewing the doomsday prophecies? When I applied to university only grade 12 grades mattered and I highly doubt they checked what you were up to at the age of 13.
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Post by: Spartak
 gossipmeng wrote:Kids weren't on the bus yet.....
I blame all the soccer moms out there who are overly active in their kid's every move and then complain to the school every 5 minutes.
It's stupid policies like this that resulted in our grade 7 principal trying to enforce 2 hand touch football.... have you ever tried to play 2 hand touch football!?!?! It's called frisbee FFS.
Way too many carebears holding their darling babies too tightly.
One thing that made me lol though "It's terrible. I won't get the chance to go to a good college. It's on your school record."
^^ Is there any truth to that or is that a kid in grade 7 spewing the doomsday prophecies? When I applied to university only grade 12 grades mattered and I highly doubt they checked what you were up to at the age of 13.
I think it depends on the state you're in, When I applied for collage (Colorado) they were all concerned about my suspension for "assault". I stopped a kid from stealing my backpack, he tried to punch me, I blocked, he cut his fist on my watch (which broke btw) and I was suspended for assaulting him. My dad bought me my first beer for that lol. Anyway I think having a "firearms" related offense might cause more of an uproar with the over educated college nitwits that typically work in the university system. So I guess its plausible that this could affect him later on down the road.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
You applied for collage?
Was that an advanced (martial) arts and crafts school?
My school board got rid of the problem the other way around: they got rid of bus service altogether. Parents are responsible for their kids as long as the bell hasn't rung, and as soon as school is out. But on the other hand, teachers are personally responsible for students they sign into their class. A kid got his eye gouged out by a flying pen and the teacher was held responsible and lost his license because of that.
Can't wait to get out to teach in the suburbs.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
One day this will stop. I hope
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Post by: col. krazy kenny
hotsauceman1 wrote:The school may have a claim, depending on how dirty the undwear are.
And I do think schools are responsible for child when they are n the bus and going to school
If they are dirty the maybe considered a Biological WMD.Better call the NSA.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
 col. krazy kenny wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:The school may have a claim, depending on how dirty the undwear are.
And I do think schools are responsible for child when they are n the bus and going to school
If they are dirty the maybe considered a Biological WMD.Better call the NSA.
They already know 
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Post by: hotsauceman1
So we are in agreement, Dirty underwear is a weapon.
But Im curious on how this works TBH. I am willing to bet the school had god reason for this.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Hahahah.
Hah.
Your somehow enduring faith in government actually doing right by human beings is kinda sad hotsauce.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
It just seems odd to me. I feel as is we dont have all the information or how laws may work in virginia.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
What more information could there really be? Kids play with a toy at home. They are subseuqently expelled.
There's really not a lot of extra room running around for mitigating circumstances in the school's favor.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Khalid insists all the shots fired were on his private property. The three children firing the guns were suspended. The three others who did not fire the guns were not suspended.
See underlined All we have to go by is the kids insistence that they only did is on private property. If they did do it near the bus stop then there is a problem. The way the article is made it seems as if they where playing more then on private property, near a busstop therefore the schools problem.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Except that sets a bad precedent. It means that anything that happens even near a bus stop is the schools business.
This means the school could potentially butt into things that are legitimately happening on private property just because a bus stop is nearby.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
The point is that this may not have taken place entirely on Private property. All we have to go on the kids words
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Post by: Frazzled
hotsauceman1 wrote:The point is that this may not have taken place entirely on Private property. All we have to go on the kids words
Bus stops are not school owned property.
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Post by: dogma
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:What more information could there really be? Kids play with a toy at home. They are subseuqently expelled.
Suspended, not expelled.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Suspension is also the dumbest punishment currently.
It may have actually been a punishment back when going to school was something kids would actually want to do, back when it was valued.
Now days, the kid is probably going to be thrilled he doesn't have to go.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Hmmm, there has to be a way to make that little tidbit uncomfortable for the school.
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Post by: Alfndrate
This is why my school started to give Saturday 'suspensions', Wednesday school, and in school suspensions. The first was a 5 hour block on Saturday in which you had to be up early and at the school. Wednesday school was a 2 hour suspension after school in which you had to sit in a room silently for that time period. In School Suspension was when they'd take you to the same room as Wednesday school and make you sit and work on homework and class work all day. No talking, no noise, just work.
You were only removed from school if you were a violent kid that posed a risk to other students.
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Post by: Grey Templar
That's more like it. Especially the Saturday thing.
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Post by: Frazzled
Irrelevant if true. That would be overturned via any serious court challenge as an unrecompensed Taking.
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Post by: dogma
First sentence of the article:
A suspended seventh grade Virginia Beach student will find out soon if he is expelled for the rest of the year for shooting an airsoft gun.
That sentence does not indicate that the child was suspended for a year. But it is telling that his friend, Aidan, and the unnamed third child are not seemingly subject to expulsion proceedings.
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Post by: Grey Templar
The fact that its even being considered is outrageous.
An Airsoft gun is NOT a firearm and the rules should reflect that. Its a toy.
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Post by: Frazzled
it says for the rest of the year. Thats frankly criminal.
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Post by: dogma
 Frazzled wrote:
Irrelevant if true. That would be overturned via any serious court challenge as an unrecompensed Taking.
While that is certainly possible, it is also an argument that Virginia officials have made.
 Grey Templar wrote:
An Airsoft gun is NOT a firearm and the rules should reflect that. Its a toy.
I agree. But blame the rules, not the school.
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Post by: Alfndrate
 dogma wrote:
First sentence of the article:
A suspended seventh grade Virginia Beach student will find out soon if he is expelled for the rest of the year for shooting an airsoft gun.
That sentence does not indicate that the child was suspended for a year. But it is telling that his friend, Aidan, and the unnamed third child are not seemingly subject to expulsion proceedings.
To be fair, the kid would miss out on a large chunk of this school year. It's not like, "hey Jimmy is suspended from now until when school lets out next week in June!" This is months of missing education.
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Post by: Frazzled
Which means he's held back an entire year, because he was playing with a freaking kid's toy ON HIS OWN PROPERTY and threatened nor harmed anyone.
"This is so Kafka"
"WHO IS THIS KAFKA!!!"
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Post by: dogma
 Alfndrate wrote:
To be fair, the kid would miss out on a large chunk of this school year. It's not like, "hey Jimmy is suspended from now until when school lets out next week in June!" This is months of missing education.
It is a year, but perhaps the kid shouldn't put himself at risk.
Frazzled wrote:Which means he's held back an entire year, because he was playing with a freaking kid's toy ON HIS OWN PROPERTY and threatened nor harmed anyone.
According to his words and those of his parents, who were not there.
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Post by: Frazzled
Kid shouldn't put himself at risk PLAYING WITH A TOY ON HIS PROPERTY? That statement doesn't pass the lucidity test. According to his words and those of his parents, who were not there.
There's nothing saying otherwise. If you want to invent something, well thats on you to do. There's no way, with the information noted in the article, that the school comes out looking anything better than horrific bureaucrats who don't have the intellect God gave to jock itch.
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Post by: Alfndrate
dogma wrote:It is a year, but perhaps the kid shouldn't put himself at risk.
I agree he shouldn't have put himself at risk, but it also isn't the school's job to intervene unless it happened while they were legally responsible for him. If he was on his family's property then the school has no jurisdiction, if he was 70 yards away (by the bus stop) then I'd give the school district a little bit more leniency.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Frazzled wrote:Kid shouldn't put himself at risk PLAYING WITH A TOY ON HIS PROPERTY? That statement doesn't pass the lucidity test.
According to his words and those of his parents, who were not there.
There's nothing saying otherwise. If you want to invent something, well thats on you to do.
There's no way, with the information noted in the article, that the school comes out looking anything better than horrific bureaucrats who don't have the intellect God gave to jock itch.
There is nothing that says otherwise true. But why should we trust the words of the wrong in the wrong? They could be making gak up. And here IS why i think the article is wrong. It doesnt state how the school found out
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Post by: Alfndrate
As an update from the article in the OP: VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY) - Two seventh grade Virginia Beach students have learned their fates Tuesday morning after they were suspended for shooting airsoft gun.
During a hearing Tuesday morning, Aidan Clark and Khalid Caraballo were given long-term suspensions in a unanimous vote. The suspensions will last until June, but a hearing will be held in January to determine if they will be allowed back in school.
Their parents told WAVY News' Andy Fox their children were expelled, but when Fox looked at the official letter from the school, he found they were long-term suspensions and not expulsions. Their parents still feel as though they were expelled.
Letter from school officials
Clark was offered the option of attending an alternative school, but his father, Tim, told WAVY News' Andy Fox he will be homeschooled.
Caraballo will attend an alternative school.
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Post by: Frazzled
Yes we do.
This story that addresses Zero Tolerance extending to private property began on September 9 with a 911 call from a concerned citizen.
A neighbor saw Khalid shooting the airsoft gun in his front yard. She told the dispatcher, "He is pointing the gun, and it looks like there's a target in a tree in his front yard".
It literally has nothing to do with the school. Automatically Appended Next Post: Alfndrate wrote:As an update from the article in the OP:
VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY) - Two seventh grade Virginia Beach students have learned their fates Tuesday morning after they were suspended for shooting airsoft gun.
During a hearing Tuesday morning, Aidan Clark and Khalid Caraballo were given long-term suspensions in a unanimous vote. The suspensions will last until June, but a hearing will be held in January to determine if they will be allowed back in school.
Their parents told WAVY News' Andy Fox their children were expelled, but when Fox looked at the official letter from the school, he found they were long-term suspensions and not expulsions. Their parents still feel as though they were expelled.
Letter from school officials
Clark was offered the option of attending an alternative school, but his father, Tim, told WAVY News' Andy Fox he will be homeschooled.
Caraballo will attend an alternative school.
Yep thats an entire year. I would be suing the  out of the school as we speak.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
He said he saw them on the front property. He never said they where only on the property
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Post by: Frazzled
He also said they were shooting a toy gun at a target in hsi front yard. Dude its right there.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
And shooting another kid in the arm. Who seemed to not be a part of it at the bus stop. Or did you happen to go over that?
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Post by: Alfndrate
hotsauceman1 wrote:He said he saw them on the front property. He never said they where only on the property
70 yards is a large distance (the distance from the kid's front yard/property to the bus stop).
To put it in perspective... That distance is large enough that the Cleveland Browns can't cross it in a few passes . I kid, but seriously 70 yards is 210 feet... There is no mistaking where this kid is or is not. Automatically Appended Next Post: hotsauceman1 wrote:And shooting another kid in the arm. Who seemed to not be a part of it at the bus stop. Or did you happen to go over that?
According to the news report the kid shot in the arm was playing in this 'airsoft gun war'
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Grey Templar wrote:Suspension is also the dumbest punishment currently.
It may have actually been a punishment back when going to school was something kids would actually want to do, back when it was valued.
Now days, the kid is probably going to be thrilled he doesn't have to go.
It used to be that suspensions where where parent would dish out horrible punishments. But at my school we learned that those who are suspended did not have parents who cared in the first place. 6th grade I got suspended alot. Never in trouble though because I was defending myself from bullies. My school had a policy where all parties, even the victims, got suspended.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alfndrate wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:He said he saw them on the front property. He never said they where only on the property
70 yards is a large distance (the distance from the kid's front yard/property to the bus stop).
To put it in perspective... That distance is large enough that the Cleveland Browns can't cross it in a few passes . I kid, but seriously 70 yards is 210 feet... There is no mistaking where this kid is or is not.
And what Im saying is this. We only have their words that they never left the property with the airsoft guns. Hell it doesnt even say how theu got caught? Did they go to school? Did the police pick them up? The person who saw it says she only saw them playing in the yard. She never said anything like they put them down. TBH I have a feeling the kids a lying
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Post by: Frazzled
I remember being suspended in the 6 th grade. Evidently plotting coup de tats was frowned upon in that establishment.
Jeez parachute in a French Foreign Legion brigade and everyone just freaks out...
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Post by: fishy bob
Suspension/expelling is unnecessary, I feel. A good box on the ear should suffice.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
That may have been allowing french people into texas frazzled. Arent they all banned from texas?
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Post by: Alfndrate
hotsauceman1 wrote:And what Im saying is this. We only have their words that they never left the property with the airsoft guns. Hell it doesnt even say how theu got caught? Did they go to school? Did the police pick them up? The person who saw it says she only saw them playing in the yard. She never said anything like they put them down. TBH I have a feeling the kids a lying
So there is a little bit more to the story. The WAVY story in the OP is gak at writing it seems. So here is the story of events as stated by the NY Daily News: Earlier in the month, a mom calls 911 to report that kids (Aidan and Khalid) are shooting the gun (not at anyone), and that "This is not a real one, but it makes people uncomfortable. I know that it makes me (uncomfortable), as a mom, to see a boy pointing a gun." A few days later, that caller's son was seen playing with Aidan and Khalid. Another 911 call was reported by a neighbor saying that kids were running down the street with weapons. So we don't really have solid evidence on the whole matter. Thankfully the NY Daily News posted the letter that the principal filed for the hearing. https://linmedia-cms.endplay.com/documents/234677/0/Principal%27s+response/f65e30ee-1e06-49a3-b212-30e18a55b6cb I'm not quoting it because the formatting is fethed up, but the principal says he became aware of the situation after a passing motorist had seen a child chasing another child with a weapon near the bus stop (doesn't give a distance) on Sept 12th.
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Post by: Grey Templar
hotsauceman1 wrote: Grey Templar wrote:Suspension is also the dumbest punishment currently.
It may have actually been a punishment back when going to school was something kids would actually want to do, back when it was valued.
Now days, the kid is probably going to be thrilled he doesn't have to go.
It used to be that suspensions where where parent would dish out horrible punishments. But at my school we learned that those who are suspended did not have parents who cared in the first place. 6th grade I got suspended alot. Never in trouble though because I was defending myself from bullies. My school had a policy where all parties, even the victims, got suspended.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alfndrate wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:He said he saw them on the front property. He never said they where only on the property
70 yards is a large distance (the distance from the kid's front yard/property to the bus stop).
To put it in perspective... That distance is large enough that the Cleveland Browns can't cross it in a few passes . I kid, but seriously 70 yards is 210 feet... There is no mistaking where this kid is or is not.
And what Im saying is this. We only have their words that they never left the property with the airsoft guns. Hell it doesnt even say how theu got caught? Did they go to school? Did the police pick them up? The person who saw it says she only saw them playing in the yard. She never said anything like they put them down. TBH I have a feeling the kids a lying
Having played with air soft before, I can tell you that it would be almost impossible to hit what you shot at at the distance given. Anybody who got hit would have been an accident.
And really, even if the kid wasn't on the property he wouldn't have been near the bus stop. If the police thought it wasnt a problem then the school has no business there.
Sure, the kid could be lying. But we have no reason to suspect that.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Sadly, according to the Principal, if a child is on their way to or from the bus stop, they are under the jurisdiction of the school... So it doesn't matter how far you are from the bus stop, according to Mr. Delaney, if you're heading to that bus stop you're the responsibility of the school.
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Post by: Grey Templar
So does that mean the school should provide supervision the instant they leave the front door?
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Alfndrate wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:And what Im saying is this. We only have their words that they never left the property with the airsoft guns. Hell it doesnt even say how theu got caught? Did they go to school? Did the police pick them up? The person who saw it says she only saw them playing in the yard. She never said anything like they put them down. TBH I have a feeling the kids a lying
So there is a little bit more to the story. The WAVY story in the OP is gak at writing it seems.
So here is the story of events as stated by the NY Daily News:
Earlier in the month, a mom calls 911 to report that kids (Aidan and Khalid) are shooting the gun (not at anyone), and that "This is not a real one, but it makes people uncomfortable. I know that it makes me (uncomfortable), as a mom, to see a boy pointing a gun."
A few days later, that caller's son was seen playing with Aidan and Khalid.
Another 911 call was reported by a neighbor saying that kids were running down the street with weapons. So we don't really have solid evidence on the whole matter. Thankfully the NY Daily News posted the letter that the principal filed for the hearing.
https://linmedia-cms.endplay.com/documents/234677/0/Principal%27s+response/f65e30ee-1e06-49a3-b212-30e18a55b6cb
I'm not quoting it because the formatting is fethed up, but the principal says he became aware of the situation after a passing motorist had seen a child chasing another child with a weapon near the bus stop (doesn't give a distance) on Sept 12th.
So at one point they where not on private property shooting with the guns? Hmm.
Also I do not like they way those kids are photographed with those guns and glasses. Looks too thuggish for me
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Post by: Alfndrate
hotsauceman1 wrote:So at one point they where not on private property shooting with the guns? Hmm. Also I do not like they way those kids are photographed with those guns and glasses. Looks too thuggish for me
There is no corroboration that the kids were leaving their yards running down the street with weapons, or that they were firing these weapons. There is corroboration that the kids were in a yard shooting the airsoft guns. Also these kids are practicing safe shooting practices by wearing eye protection.
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Post by: Grey Templar
On city property, not school property.
The city, by way of the police, determined there was no problem.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Grey Templar wrote:So does that mean the school should provide supervision the instant they leave the front door?
And evidently an escort to help prevent being hit with a BB. Maybe we should just make all schools boarding schools, that way the child is under the school's control at all times
Sounds to me as though the school have just massively exposed themselves to a lot of liability in the event that students get hurt on their way to a bus stop.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Alfndrate wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:So at one point they where not on private property shooting with the guns? Hmm.
Also I do not like they way those kids are photographed with those guns and glasses. Looks too thuggish for me
There is no corroboration that the kids were leaving their yards running down the street with weapons, or that they were firing these weapons. There is corroboration that the kids were in a yard shooting the airsoft guns.
Also these kids are practicing safe shooting practices by wearing eye protection.
I get that, but the way the photographer mae the photographs look thuggish is wrong to me.
Yes, but being in the yard does not exclude the fact they, at one point, could have left it.
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Post by: Grey Templar
"On their way to the bus stop"
Does that mean they are under the school watch from when they wake up till they get home?
After all, when they wake up the are on their way. Just going to get dressed and maybe eat while "on their way"
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Post by: Alfndrate
hotsauceman1 wrote:
I get that, but the way the photographer made the photographs look thuggish is wrong to me.
Yes, but being in the yard does not exclude the fact they, at one point, could have left it.
I don't disagree with you, I'm sure that it wasn't his intent because the article doesn't talk about these kids in that sort of light.
And being in the yard means that they were in the yard. "Could have left it" means that they "Could have not left it" We have more evidence saying the kids were in the yard playing, and less evidence saying the kids left it.
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Post by: Grey Templar
hotsauceman1 wrote: Alfndrate wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:So at one point they where not on private property shooting with the guns? Hmm.
Also I do not like they way those kids are photographed with those guns and glasses. Looks too thuggish for me
There is no corroboration that the kids were leaving their yards running down the street with weapons, or that they were firing these weapons. There is corroboration that the kids were in a yard shooting the airsoft guns.
Also these kids are practicing safe shooting practices by wearing eye protection.
I get that, but the way the photographer mae the photographs look thuggish is wrong to me.
Yes, but being in the yard does not exclude the fact they, at one point, could have left it.
Could have left doesn't matter.
I mean, I could easily have run over several pedestrians on my way to school. But I didnt .
Capacity to do something doesn't matter unless there is other evidence of wrongdoing.
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Post by: -Shrike-
What a bunch of idiots. The school, that is, not the children. A whole year suspended? They're also going to be in deep gak if anyone is actually hurt on their way to the bus stop. If they claim "not our responsibility", I could see multiple lawsuits heading their way before you can say "Games Workshop Legal Team".
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Post by: SilverMK2
Most of the schools I have been to have a rule which essentially says that if you are wearing your uniform you can be punished by the school for anything which is reported to them by "the public" even outside of school hours and outside of any school supplied transport.
As to this particular case... if only the children involved had real guns. That would have kept them safe from the school stepping on their rights!
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Post by: Alfndrate
 SilverMK2 wrote:Most of the schools I have been to have a rule which essentially says that if you are wearing your uniform you can be punished by the school for anything which is reported to them by "the public" even outside of school hours and outside of any school supplied transport.
As to this particular case... if only the children involved had real guns. That would have kept them safe from the school stepping on their rights!
Agreed! A Kalashnikov for every kid!
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Post by: hotsauceman1
do we have proof you didnt run anyone over? Or corroberation?
We have proof that at one point they where at their yards, and another pint a 911 call, that they where with the weapons. at that at point they arrived at the bus stop because someone believed them to be there.
I really think that people are not looking into this and only seeing "ZOMG, the goverment is invading out life" Automatically Appended Next Post: -Shrike- wrote:What a bunch of idiots. The school, that is, not the children. A whole year suspended? They're also going to be in deep gak if anyone is actually hurt on their way to the bus stop. If they claim "not our responsibility", I could see multiple lawsuits heading their way before you can say "Games Workshop Legal Team".
Did no one read that they are still going to be allowed to go to an educational facility?
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Post by: -Shrike-
hotsauceman1 wrote:do we have proof you didnt run anyone over? Or corroberation?
We have proof that at one point they where at their yards, and another pint a 911 call, that they where with the weapons. at that at point they arrived at the bus stop because someone believed them to be there.
I really think that people are not looking into this and only seeing "ZOMG, the goverment is invading out life"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
-Shrike- wrote:What a bunch of idiots. The school, that is, not the children. A whole year suspended? They're also going to be in deep gak if anyone is actually hurt on their way to the bus stop. If they claim "not our responsibility", I could see multiple lawsuits heading their way before you can say "Games Workshop Legal Team".
Did no one read that they are still going to be allowed to go to an educational facility?
"Hey, are you new here?"
"Yeah, I just got moved halfway across the town after my year-long suspension because I was playing with my airsoft gun in the front yard."
I still think Zero Tolerance is fething stupid.
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Post by: Alfndrate
hotsauceman1 wrote:Did no one read that they are still going to be allowed to go to an educational facility?
No, I did read that they were going to be allowed at an alternative educational facility. Aidan was offered to attend Renaissance Academy, which looks like a fantastic school, certainly better than the gakhole that taught me.
Let's look at the school he could have been attending if his family hadn't chosen homeschooling.
Renaissance is home to the SECEP Re ED Program, a program that is designed for students from 5 to 21 with emotional disabilities that teaches them life skills in addition to the basic school curriculum (this sounds like your standard intervention specialist program). and the Tidewater Regional Alternative Educational Program that seeks to help students that have not met success in the traditional classroom. TRAEP contains a curriculum of English, Social Studies, math, and allows students to get their GED!
Also it seems that Renaissance has had some issues with personnel in the past:
http://wtkr.com/2013/03/08/beach-school-security-assistant-accused-of-inappropriate-contact-with-student/
http://www.wavy.com/news/local/va-beach/mom-says-secep-teacher-punched-child
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Post by: Grey Templar
Yeah, sure. Send him to a school for kids who actually have problems...
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Post by: -Shrike-
And then, when he gets into trouble there because it's full of people with problems, his original school can say "See? We told you he was messed up!".
Genius! 
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Post by: Alfndrate
I found the information that I was looking for about Renaissance Academy. Much like the Lakewood City Academy of my home town, RA is a school for those that have been kicked out of other schools, whether temporarily or permanently.
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/11/new-leader-fresh-start-virginia-beach-school
The line important to me:
However, Renaissance Academy's poor reputation isn't without reason. Students attend because they have been kicked out of their home schools or have fallen behind academically. A few weeks into the school year, a fight resulted in about a dozen arrests only hours after the principal resigned.
Let's send that little delinquent there indeed!
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Post by: -Shrike-
Alfndrate wrote:I found the information that I was looking for about Renaissance Academy. Much like the Lakewood City Academy of my home town, RA is a school for those that have been kicked out of other schools, whether temporarily or permanently.
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/11/new-leader-fresh-start-virginia-beach-school
The line important to me:
However, Renaissance Academy's poor reputation isn't without reason. Students attend because they have been kicked out of their home schools or have fallen behind academically. A few weeks into the school year, a fight resulted in about a dozen arrests only hours after the principal resigned.
Let's send that little delinquent there indeed!
What made me laugh:
A few weeks into the school year...the principal resigned.
Lines like that really fill you with confidence!
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Post by: Frazzled
hotsauceman1 wrote:That may have been allowing french people into texas frazzled. Arent they all banned from texas?
Pre 1800, French were welcome. They're one of our flags. They were cool then and had cool uniforms. This was before queso was invented.
Post 1800 Queso is invented. No French for you! Automatically Appended Next Post: Grey Templar wrote:"On their way to the bus stop"
Does that mean they are under the school watch from when they wake up till they get home?
After all, when they wake up the are on their way. Just going to get dressed and maybe eat while "on their way"
Evidently so. Brush those teeth Little Timmy OR WE WILL EXPEL YOU FOREVER!!! Automatically Appended Next Post: SilverMK2 wrote:Most of the schools I have been to have a rule which essentially says that if you are wearing your uniform you can be punished by the school for anything which is reported to them by "the public" even outside of school hours and outside of any school supplied transport.
As to this particular case... if only the children involved had real guns. That would have kept them safe from the school stepping on their rights!
Most schools in the US don't have uniforms. Automatically Appended Next Post: Alfndrate wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Did no one read that they are still going to be allowed to go to an educational facility?
No, I did read that they were going to be allowed at an alternative educational facility. Aidan was offered to attend Renaissance Academy, which looks like a fantastic school, certainly better than the gakhole that taught me.
Let's look at the school he could have been attending if his family hadn't chosen homeschooling.
Renaissance is home to the SECEP Re ED Program, a program that is designed for students from 5 to 21 with emotional disabilities that teaches them life skills in addition to the basic school curriculum (this sounds like your standard intervention specialist program). and the Tidewater Regional Alternative Educational Program that seeks to help students that have not met success in the traditional classroom. TRAEP contains a curriculum of English, Social Studies, math, and allows students to get their GED!
Also it seems that Renaissance has had some issues with personnel in the past:
http://wtkr.com/2013/03/08/beach-school-security-assistant-accused-of-inappropriate-contact-with-student/
http://www.wavy.com/news/local/va-beach/mom-says-secep-teacher-punched-child
It sounds like a Chino Gladiator Academy (Chino alternative school for the non LA types). Yep, he'll learn cool stuff like the proper way to hold a knife, and how to differentiate between good meth adn bad meth.
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Post by: Spacemanvic
When you have people willing to be led by the nose, you get reactions and overreaching government like this.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Update: The boys have been expelled.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/25/awful-school-expels-kids-who-played-with-airsoft-gun-on-private-property/
Whew. Really nipped that one in the bud, if they'd gotten any further along they might have had FUN!
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Post by: hotsauceman1
That article has it wrong. This isnt an update that is mis information.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also "Sources disagree over how close the boys were to the bus stop at the time of the incident." from that article.
No one knows how close they where
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Post by: Alfndrate
Yeah, it's a 1 year suspension with the option of going to Renaissance Academy, an alternative education school for kids who don't fit into a traditional school setting. Khalid and his family decided to take the alternative schooling route. Aidan's family decided to homeschool their kid.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
All the kids interviewed have confirmed Khalid and his friend's side of the story. They never left the yard. That's all the actual evidence we're gonna get on this one.
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Post by: Alfndrate
KalashnikovMarine wrote:All the kids interviewed have confirmed Khalid and his friend's side of the story. They never left the yard. That's all the actual evidence we're gonna get on this one.
That I don't disagree with, this entire time we've had more witnesses saying the kids were in their yard.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Alfndrate wrote:
Yeah, it's a 1 year suspension with the option of going to Renaissance Academy, an alternative education school for kids who don't fit into a traditional school setting. Khalid and his family decided to take the alternative schooling route. Aidan's family decided to homeschool their kid.
Just reading that article guys. And it's an "alternative school" for troubled kids. Probably not the best enviroment for a young man who wants to go to college no?
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Post by: hotsauceman1
School Is what you make it. Besides he is in what? 7th grade? IT isnt going to be that bad for college.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
You mean a disciplinary note for a FIREARMS related incident (which is how the school labled his "offense") isn't going to cause him problems in the future? Never mind being punished for something he absolutely shouldn't be being punished for, going to an "alternative school" isn't what you make of it. Those schools are just holding pens for kids the school system doesn't want to deal with, getting a decent education out of one is significantly less likely then getting your first gang tattoo at one.
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Post by: Grey Templar
hotsauceman1 wrote:School Is what you make it. Besides he is in what? 7th grade? IT isnt going to be that bad for college.
This being on his transcript will shut down the possibility of going to a good college, even if he maintains good grades. Which could be difficult at a school environment with actual problem kids.
If its between 2 kids who have identical grades, but one of them got sent to reform school they'll go with the kid who doesn't have a record.
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Post by: Alfndrate
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Alfndrate wrote:
Yeah, it's a 1 year suspension with the option of going to Renaissance Academy, an alternative education school for kids who don't fit into a traditional school setting. Khalid and his family decided to take the alternative schooling route. Aidan's family decided to homeschool their kid.
Just reading that article guys. And it's an "alternative school" for troubled kids. Probably not the best enviroment for a young man who wants to go to college no?
Yup, I know I made that point a page back? Idk, all I know is that it's a huge overreaction on the part of the school and these kids are suffering for it.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
I personally Do not think it is an over reaction. If you read the articles that are not politically charged there is a lack of evidence that the kids where not near the bus stop when they where shooting the guns. All you have is other kids and one adult. And kids lie all the time to get them and their friends out of trouble
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Post by: Grey Templar
You can't prove a negative. There's a lack of evidence that they were shooting near the bus stop. Which is what the school has to prove.
The kids and their parents don't have to prove they were not at the bus stop. And testimony that they weren't is adequate defense. Especially with other witnesses confirming that.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Whatever. I just hate how dakka automatically thinks schools are in the wrong when it comes to punishment. And I hate toy guns with a passion. The fetishization guns and treating of guns as toys I see in america is absolutely disgusting.
Schools do not do thing without purpose, it did not get that far into a disciplinary board without some form of evidence to the contrary.
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Post by: Spacemanvic
hotsauceman1 wrote:I personally Do not think it is an over reaction. If you read the articles that are not politically charged there is a lack of evidence that the kids where not near the bus stop when they where shooting the guns. All you have is other kids and one adult. And kids lie all the time to get them and their friends out of trouble
It's a complete over reaction by a blindingly progressive school system and a worry wart neighbor. Its a TOY he was using on HIS property. Lawyers love people who lack real common sense (TOY, on HIS property). Its' this stupidity that leads to legalese on coffee cups "contents may be hot".
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Post by: Grey Templar
hotsauceman1 wrote:Whatever. I just hate how dakka automatically thinks schools are in the wrong when it comes to punishment. And I hate toy guns with a passion. The fetishization guns and treating of guns as toys I see in america is absolutely disgusting.
Schools do not do thing without purpose, it did not get that far into a disciplinary board without some form of evidence to the contrary.
That is not a problem with toy guns, its a problem of parenting.
A toy gun is not a real gun, its no more dangerous to play with a toy gun that it is to play with a toy car. Both real cars and real guns are dangerous if used incorrectly. But nobody is flying off the handle and blaming teen driving on them playing with toy cars when they were younger.
And this is still a toy gun they were playing with. Airsoft "guns" are just toys. Nothing more.
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Post by: Spacemanvic
hotsauceman1 wrote:Whatever. I just hate how dakka automatically thinks schools are in the wrong when it comes to punishment. And I hate toy guns with a passion. The fetishization guns and treating of guns as toys I see in america is absolutely disgusting.
Schools do not do thing without purpose, it did not get that far into a disciplinary board without some form of evidence to the contrary.
And I hate sherbert colored unicorns. The feminization of rainbow colored unicorns as avatars and toys I see in america (sic) is absolutely disgusting.
You should replace your avatar with this:
Schools do not do thing without purpose, it did not get that far into a disciplinary board without some form of evidence to the contrary.
Dumber things have been done by districts with less info. Like this billion dollar initiative:
http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-lausd-ipads-20130925,0,906924.story
latimes.com
L.A. students breach school iPads' security
As students at Roosevelt High and other schools hack L.A. Unified-issued iPads for non-schoolwork, the district ponders solutions.
By Howard Blume
9:48 PM PDT, September 24, 2013
Advertisement
It took exactly one week for nearly 300 students at Roosevelt High School to hack through security so they could surf the Web on their new school-issued iPads, raising new concerns about a plan to distribute the devices to all students in the district.
Similar problems emerged at two other high schools as well, although the hacking was not as widespread.
Officials at the Los Angeles Unified School District have immediately halted home use of the Apple tablets until further notice.
The incident, which came to light Tuesday, prompted questions about overall preparations for the $1-billion tablet initiative.
The roll-out is scheduled to put an iPad in the hands of every student in the nation's second-largest school system within a year. Roosevelt was among the first to distribute them, starting a week ago.
Tablets were still being handed out Friday when administrators discovered the hacking already in progress, allowing students to reach such restricted sites as YouTube and Facebook, among others.
"Outside of the district's network ... a user is free to download content and applications and browse the Internet without restriction," two senior administrators said in a memo to the board of education and L.A. schools Supt. John Deasy. "As student safety is of paramount concern, breach of the … system must not occur."
Other schools reporting the problem were Westchester High and the Valley Academy of Arts and Sciences in Granada Hills.
Students began to tinker with the security lock on the tablets because "they took them home and they can't do anything with them," said Roosevelt senior Alfredo Garcia.
Roosevelt students matter-of-factly explained their ingenuity Tuesday outside school. The trick, they said, was to delete their personal profile information. With the profile deleted, a student was free to surf.
Soon they were sending tweets, socializing on Facebook and streaming music through Pandora, they said.
L.A. Unified School District Police Chief Steven Zipperman suggested, in a confidential memo to senior staff obtained by The Times, that the district might want to delay distribution of the devices.
"I'm guessing this is just a sample of what will likely occur on other campuses once this hits Twitter, YouTube or other social media sites explaining to our students how to breach or compromise the security of these devices," Zipperman wrote. "I want to prevent a 'runaway train' scenario when we may have the ability to put a hold on the roll-out."
By Tuesday afternoon, L.A. Unified officials were weighing potential solutions. One would limit the tablets, when taken home, to curricular materials from the Pearson corporation, which are already installed. All other applications and Internet access would be turned off, according to a district "action plan."
A second approach would be to buy and install a new security application.
Apple's just-released new operating system might help, but not the current iteration, according to the district. A fix from Apple is not likely to be available before late December.
The devices should work normally at school, although even that has been problematic. Teacher Robert Penuela said his use of the tablets has been limited because he can't get them to work for all students at once.
Roosevelt freshman Alan Munoz said that, so far, he was using his iPad only during free time.
The excitement of receiving the device quickly wore off for senior Kimberly Ramirez when she realized it was for schoolwork only.
"You can't do nothing with them," she said. "You just carry them around."
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Post by: djones520
hotsauceman1 wrote:Whatever. I just hate how dakka automatically thinks schools are in the wrong when it comes to punishment. And I hate toy guns with a passion. The fetishization guns and treating of guns as toys I see in america is absolutely disgusting.
Schools do not do thing without purpose, it did not get that far into a disciplinary board without some form of evidence to the contrary.
Schools don't do things without purpose? Well... I guess the hours in 4th grade spent watching Barney was so the teachers could get drinking breaks in...
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Post by: hotsauceman1
im on my phne so excuse my grammar. Guns are tools of killing. by giving kids toy guns you are putting into their mind that gunsare toys. This is what leads to kids getting real guns in their hands(from various places) and having kids shoot their hands friends thinking of the gun as toys. i am not against guns. i am against guns their usage as toys for young kids
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Post by: djones520
hotsauceman1 wrote:im on my phne so excuse my grammar. Guns are tools of killing. by giving kids toy guns you are putting into their mind that gunsare toys. This is what leads to kids getting real guns in their hands(from various places) and having kids shoot their hands friends thinking of the gun as toys. i am not against guns. i am against guns their usage as toys for young kids
No... that is not it. That is the parents failing to teach their children the difference. Ask my 5 year old about real and toy guns, he'll tell you.
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Post by: Alfndrate
hotsauceman1 wrote:I personally Do not think it is an over reaction. If you read the articles that are not politically charged there is a lack of evidence that the kids where not near the bus stop when they where shooting the guns. All you have is other kids and one adult. And kids lie all the time to get them and their friends out of trouble
Kids lie all the time, but kids will fething rat on their friends to keep themselves out of trouble. If Kid A's mom said, don't play with Khalid and Aidan and their airsoft guns, and Kid A plays with Khalid and Aidan and gets shot by the gun, he will rat on Khalid and Aidan faster than you can say delinquent little gak. hotsauceman1 wrote:Whatever. I just hate how dakka automatically thinks schools are in the wrong when it comes to punishment. And I hate toy guns with a passion. The fetishization guns and treating of guns as toys I see in america is absolutely disgusting.
Schools do not do thing without purpose, it did not get that far into a disciplinary board without some form of evidence to the contrary.
In 90% of the cases, zero tolerance policies don't actually solve a problem. They create a world in which people on both sides of an issue are punished. hotsauce, you've been called names in school before right? What if you were physically assaulted in school and defended yourself? You'd be in just as much trouble as the person beating you. In those cases the only way to stay out of trouble is to put your hands in your pockets and take the beating, but then you just became the doormat for the guy doing the beating. zero tolerance policies are to prevent instances where the school can be called into liablity and be sued. The school has actually fethed up majorly in this instance. If a student is bullied between home and school and the school doesn't hold the bully responsible the parents of the bullied student can use this case as an opening to show that the school has jurisdiction over the time from when the student leaves his or her house at the beginning of the day and the moment they reach home at the end of the day. And schools say they don't do things without purpose, but sometimes these things don't serve a puprose and instead inadvertently serve to undermine a student's ability to learn. A simple premise of these purposes is a school's uniform policy. When schools that don't have uniforms have a dress code they have to do a few things to make sure that students follow these policies. What happens when a kid breaks dress code? They get removed from school over a t-shirt, a hoodie, etc... I had a friend in high school that was a huge Marilyn Manson fan and wore a shirt that said, "Babble babble bitch bitch/Rebel rebel party party/Sex sex sex and don't/forget the "violence"" He was sent home to get a new shirt because of the language of the shirt. I had another friend that was sent home for wearing a My Chemical Romance hoodie that featured handguns on them. It was pointed out that the school's mascot had handguns and thus they couldn't enforce that without sending people home for wearing school colors. My junior year our mascot lost his handguns and just became a big gay purple cowboy instead of a big gay purple cowboy with handguns. Zero tolerance policies take any sort of adjudication out of the schools hands and simply make broad, sweeping judgements in order to 'preserve the academic environment' and to cover their asses. Tell me this hotsauce, do you honestly believe Khalid is better off going to a school known for troubled students for a year? Edit: 13 year olds are not young kids
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Post by: Spacemanvic
hotsauceman1 wrote:im on my phne so excuse my grammar. Guns are tools of killing. by giving kids toy guns you are putting into their mind that gunsare toys. This is what leads to kids getting real guns in their hands(from various places) and having kids shoot their hands friends thinking of the gun as toys. i am not against guns. i am against guns their usage as toys for young kids
That is pure ignorance. Utilizing programs like the Eddie Eagle program, children are taught to respect firearms. This disarms the fear-mongering mysticism people like you attach to firearms. By removing the mystery of firearms, children are less apt to let their curiosity get the better of them. They are taught that firearms are dangerous and not to be toyed with. Even when playing with Nerf guns, my children are taught to not point them at others (unless that person is playing with them), not to discharge them irresponsibly etc. When we go shooting as a family, it begins with a 40 minute lecture by me on proper gun handling before they are even allowed to touch a round. And this is enforced every time. I actually have more issue with my nieces and nephews whose parents sound like you. Those kids rush and try to touch the firearms and I have to slow them down. It's simple, remove the forbidden fruit aspect of it, and people are less prone to crave it.
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Post by: daedalus
hotsauceman1 wrote:im on my phne so excuse my grammar. Guns are tools of killing. by giving kids toy guns you are putting into their mind that gunsare toys. This is what leads to kids getting real guns in their hands(from various places) and having kids shoot their hands friends thinking of the gun as toys. i am not against guns. i am against guns their usage as toys for young kids
I strongly disagree.
You can't disregard the statements of the kids simply because "they are kids". Especially the ones who were getting shot themselves. I disagree that a school system, it's machinations dictated by human beings, can somehow be above and beyond doing either, the wrong thing, or something extraneous. Could you please express what leads you to believe otherwise?
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Post by: hotsauceman1
How is that stupid? Kids need to learn to use digital devices like Ipads. We are living in a world where these are becoming more common and needed. Kid needs to learn how to do it. Yes there need to be bugs ironed out but that idea isnt stupid.
And Daedalus, No need for personal insults, we are all adults here respect other peoples opinions
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Post by: daedalus
hotsauceman1 wrote:
And Daedalus, No need for personal insults, we are all adults here respect other peoples opinions
Fair. Edited for opinion's respectfulness-sake
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Post by: hotsauceman1
I just want you guys to understand. I do not think guns the to be unreasonably regulated. I believe in the second amendment as much as I believe in the first. What I do not like is that weapons are advertised as toys to children. Yes I understand that some of you have children/young relatives that now the difference. but many kids do not have that opportunity so they still think of guns as toys. Up until my cousin shot a pig infront of her son he thought they where nothing but toys. Now that he understands that I am getting him and his brother rubber band rifles for christmas. I guess Im more against kids playing with guns that dont really know what they are capable of.
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Post by: daedalus
That sounds like an unfortunate lack of education.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
It is, but because of gun policies and the political stratification of schools the only way for kids to learn about guns is from parents.
the only way you can do it on campus with an optout program like sex-ed.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Pretty much. If parents don't educate their children then we have to legislate for stupid Automatically Appended Next Post: hotsauceman1 wrote:It is, but because of gun policies and the political stratification of schools the only way for kids to learn about guns is from parents.
the only way you can do it on campus with an optout program like sex-ed.
Except that most schools are gun free zones with zero tolerance policies (like the OP shows)
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Post by: hotsauceman1
I said it was because gun policies. Even if they did have a program It would have to be opt-out like sex ed because many parents would not like that.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
hotsauceman1 wrote:I said it was because gun policies. Even if they did have a program It would have to be opt-out like sex ed because many parents would not like that.
Right.... and how can a school provide education on firearms when (a) they are not allowed on the campus, (b) the school has zero tolerance of them (even on private property as shown earlier).
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Well in cali zero tolerance applies to students and teachers. Police officers are allowed to carry guns on campus
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Post by: Alfndrate
hotsauceman1 wrote:Well in cali zero tolerance applies to students and teachers. Police officers are allowed to carry guns on campus
So our police officers should be the ones teaching our kids about guns and good fire control? Certainly the LA and NYC schools are doomed if this were to be the case
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Alfndrate wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Well in cali zero tolerance applies to students and teachers. Police officers are allowed to carry guns on campus
So our police officers should be the ones teaching our kids about guns and good fire control? Certainly the LA and NYC schools are doomed if this were to be the case
"Do as I say, not as I do class"
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