So I'm curious in a 2,000 points game for a NOVA tournament, which of these are considered more OP, a list bringing 2 heldrakes or one with 2 Riptides?


In my opinion the Heldrakes > Riptide.

Heldrake
Pros
1. Flyer
2. 5+ Invulnerable + It Will Not Die (on a friggin flyer)
3. S6 AP3 Torrent
4. Cheaper
5. Vector Strike

Cons
1. Might lose friends
2. 2+ Saves don't care for it

Riptide
Pros
1. Monstrous Creature
2. 5+ Invulnerable + Nova Charge
3. Ion Accelerator

Cons
1. Needs marketlight support
2. Poor in close combat
3. Higher Point Cost


That's my reasoning anyway, rip tides cost a lot of points to make best use of. While the Heldrake is cheaper and doesn't require any further upgrading or assistance from anything to make units evaporte.

So what about the rest of you? Do you consider 2 of either of these units to be 'too cheesy' for a NOVA tournament setting? How about for a standard pick up game? And which would you rank as more OP

Heldrakes dont need anything to rock and you cant stop them from getting at LEAST one devastating shot off, and their saves and regeneration are silly. You need 6's to hit them, and even then its AV 12. So ALL high value shooting attack units have to attack it to avoid a massacre.

A Riptide can be outflanked and subsequently killed. ONE wound in melee can be all it takes. They fire an equally mean weapon, but one that is EASIER to plan for, from a formations perspective and without Markerlight support, the scatters do cost you a lot of points for no gain at times, which is one reason why Burst Cannon wielding Riptides are preferred by some Generals (Ripple Fire is nice alongside that bad boy.)

So I give the nod to Heldrakes. In larger numbers the Heldrakes progressively become more powerful, as the amount of fire needed to take them out RAPIDLY runs out whereas a Riptide can be killed with a few Ravens Claws or Grav guns.

Overall, the nod HAS to be to the Heldrake. that is in NO way to say that Riptides aren't good. I use two of them myself. But my Heldrake seems scarier than my Riptides when I am playing with them.

Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

What do you so oftenly use to 1 shot a heldrake? And does this occur in a tournament setting? I don't see many tournament players letting their drakes get owned without barbecuing all possible threats first...just saying.

 Akaiyou wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

What do you so oftenly use to 1 shot a heldrake? And does this occur in a tournament setting? I don't see many tournament players letting their drakes get owned without barbecuing all possible threats first...just saying.

Well even a quad gun has a chance (slim or not) to straight remove a hell turkey on an intercept.

try that on a riptide and you can expect it to be up on turn 7.

I vote riptide for as above stated. Also a hell drake as cool as it is wont hurt 2+ too often.

Against me? Helldrakes. My terminators and sternguard make short work of Riptides. Helldrakes present a far greater problem.

 Akaiyou wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

What do you so oftenly use to 1 shot a heldrake? And does this occur in a tournament setting? I don't see many tournament players letting their drakes get owned without barbecuing all possible threats first...just saying.

Vendettas can do it fairly often, and for 130 points why not.

This isn't even remotely a challenge.

The helldrake is a vehicle (so can get one-shotted), and it has fewer HP than the riptide has W, and the riptide has a Sv2+, and the riptide can gain cover saves more easily, and the riptide starts on the board, and the riptide has better range, and it can see in the dark, and isn't vulnerable to interceptor fire, and doesn't get much worse when skyfire weapons are around, and can be actually pretty decent in close combat, and can make use of markerlights, and have the weaponry to be able to kill anything in the game, and can take interceptor, and has all of the interesting nova abilities.

The helldrake shows up late, has mobility restrictions and range problems, is vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, and can only handle a single class of targets particularly well - a class of targets that the codex its in should have no problems handling.

Riptides have every advantage are something that makes your opponent not be able to play the game.

One of them is of dubious use, and the other is OP. There's not much of a competition here.

Not much of a competition and yet the voting indicate otherwise.

Many fair points on riptides's defense strengths have been brought up but I have to mention the following.

Yes skyfire is good against flyers because it allow you to shoot at them as normal. But how much skyfire is everyone reasonably bringing to the table?? The heldrake is something you MUST account for in your army build by spending a LOT of points on things to kill it, where as I have a hard time thinking of any army in the game who's basic weapons would NOT be able to put wounds on a riptide.

Specially in the current plasma loving metagame that's predominant in 6th edition. How is it that so many of you cant take out what's most likely the toughest flyer int the game, versus a good shooty monstrous creature that you can literally toss any weapon at and have a better chance of damaging it without adding any 'extras' to your build.

2+ Sv monstrous creatures are awesome but even bolters can take one down. The heldrake will be largely immune to anything not at least S6, with it's very small rear being the only weakness to S5.

I always have at least one thing with skyfire be it a Cntemptor, Helios LR, or just guys with flakk missiles. The Riptide is an absolute beast and far deadlier over time than a Helldrake

Col. Dash wrote:
I always have at least one thing with skyfire be it a Cntemptor, Helios LR, or just guys with flakk missiles. The Riptide is an absolute beast and far deadlier over time than a Helldrake

So mostly forgeworld models that aren't allowed in tournaments? Flakk missles aren't scary to a heldrake. Can they blow it up? Yup. Do they? Not once in my experience.

The riptide is indeed 2+, but plasma is very prolific in 6th. I fear heldrakes more than riptides period.
I do however, fear Tau more than Chaos...

Yeah, I have to go with the helldrakes here. I understand what Ailaros is saying, but the helldrakes can eliminate scoring units much quicker than a riptide.

The Tau as a whole list is much scarier than the CSM, though.

Without proper marker support the riptides won't be nearly as deadly against most targets, however it won't die. Helldrakes are insanely durable for a vehicle...but they're still a vehicle. IWND doesn't help if you get a 6 rolled on ya.

However I'd go with riptides. Two 8man Pathfinders will provide plenty of marker support for an additional 172ish points. Costs more than the helldrakes in the end but has a much wider range of use.

Helldrake is just an independent bastard is all.

 Ailaros wrote:
This isn't even remotely a challenge.

The helldrake is a vehicle (so can get one-shotted), and it has fewer HP than the riptide has W, and the riptide has a Sv2+, and the riptide can gain cover saves more easily, and the riptide starts on the board, and the riptide has better range, and it can see in the dark, and isn't vulnerable to interceptor fire, and doesn't get much worse when skyfire weapons are around, and can be actually pretty decent in close combat, and can make use of markerlights, and have the weaponry to be able to kill anything in the game, and can take interceptor, and has all of the interesting nova abilities.

The helldrake shows up late, has mobility restrictions and range problems, is vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, and can only handle a single class of targets particularly well - a class of targets that the codex its in should have no problems handling.

Riptides have every advantage are something that makes your opponent not be able to play the game.

One of them is of dubious use, and the other is OP. There's not much of a competition here.

and one while ignored does nothing, the other while ignored can contest an objective

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
This isn't even remotely a challenge.

The helldrake is a vehicle (so can get one-shotted), and it has fewer HP than the riptide has W, and the riptide has a Sv2+, and the riptide can gain cover saves more easily, and the riptide starts on the board, and the riptide has better range, and it can see in the dark, and isn't vulnerable to interceptor fire, and doesn't get much worse when skyfire weapons are around, and can be actually pretty decent in close combat, and can make use of markerlights, and have the weaponry to be able to kill anything in the game, and can take interceptor, and has all of the interesting nova abilities.

The helldrake shows up late, has mobility restrictions and range problems, is vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, and can only handle a single class of targets particularly well - a class of targets that the codex its in should have no problems handling.

Riptides have every advantage are something that makes your opponent not be able to play the game.

One of them is of dubious use, and the other is OP. There's not much of a competition here.

and one while ignored torches units off of objectives wholesale, the other while ignored can contest an objective

Ftfy

The question wasn't which is more op when you add support, it was which is more op. The riptide just isn't as vicious without markerlight support, while the heldrake is great by itself. Add an additional 172 points (plus the 20 or so points of initial cost difference) and you have around 200 points of support for the heldrake. At that points value, I buy a squad of nurgle oblits and deep strike them on the pathfinders. See how that works when you start adding?


On an exclusive per-unit basis, the heldrake wins the scary prize.

Neither are OP

Tau because Tau master race.

I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Realistically, most armies that can't deal with Riptides are unlikely to be balanced compositions-- with the possible exception of Orks, who currently lack any effective AP1/2 outside of close combat.

Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

 Jancoran wrote:
Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

Simple

a single shot, even from a quad gun, can take it out or severely incapacitate it. a Riptide, save a the instakill bullet off of a IA vanquisher, takes far far far more shots to remove.

Riptides obey all the regular rules of 40k paradigm we've learned over the years. While they might be tough and have a large radius of low AP weaponry, it's nothing outside the box.

Helldrakes break the paradigm. They're essentially indestructible. They have S6 AP3, ignores cover weapon with an unlimited turning arc and 4 feet of effective range. They are immune to assault.

Riptides are good, but conventional. Helldrakes are an outlier.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

Simple

a single shot, even from a quad gun, can take it out or severely incapacitate it. a Riptide, save a the instakill bullet off of a IA vanquisher, takes far far far more shots to remove.

Yet I have never seen it happen. Not once. Just because it is a statistical probability doesn't mean it is at all likely. Every army I play can readily deal with 2 riptides at 2k and they will not do much damage to me before dying. 2 heldrakes give me a headache. They are tough to get rid of, but most of all, they are devastating all by themselves. The riptide needs you to tie 550 - 600 points in 2 to work properly, 2 heldrakes require ~350 points to work.

I honestly don't know what your doing to nulify 2 riptides that quickly but i remove heldraks frequently with an Icarus las cannon and a purtide chip commander. or even EWO Broadsides.

Besides that you only need a weapon destroyed or explosion result to really neuter a heldrake.

I have like a 20 page thread on this, but let's not dig up the past...

There's a reason why the winner of Nova Open has 4 Riptides and not 4 Helldrakes.

O'Vesa + Iontide with a Chip Commander is the most op unit in the game bar none at the moment.

Effective from turn one, ignores cover, monster and tank hunter, can soak a hell of a lot of shots.

Helldrakes are OP because other than interceptor and list structure/capability there is no defence. They arrive, they place a template, you remove your guys. You can only rely on your opponent rolling plenty of ones, and not using Daemonforge. Thing is, you don't have to build your list that differently to combat them. Just make sure that any loss is sustainable and that you can kill them after they arrive before they cause more damage.

Now Riptides are a big problem. You need a large amount of firepower that is often rare or exceedingly expensive to bring one down. You have to alter your list specifically so if they show up you're not boned. They're capable of decimating anything you throw at them short of high armour value vehicles. At low points levels they're flat out over the line broken - my GW store ran a 'chuck norris challenge' recently, wherein one army of 600 points had to take on 1200 points split between two other players.

The guy with 600 points had two Riptides. I said 'where's your AP2? how are you going to take down the Riptides?' and they (the 1200 pointers) had no answer. Guess who won with all the victory points and not a single Riptide lost. Whoops, spoilers.

Drakes do not bother me.

Riptides... yeah, they are much more scary.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I have like a 20 page thread on this, but let's not dig up the past...

There's a reason why the winner of Nova Open has 4 Riptides and not 4 Helldrakes.

O'Vesa + Iontide with a Chip Commander is the most op unit in the game bar none at the moment.

Effective from turn one, ignores cover, monster and tank hunter, can soak a hell of a lot of shots.

This.

NOVA results speak strongly. Support units and points invested are irrelevant. You won't make the guy tabling you with riptides feel bad that he spent extra points on marker lights and a buffmander. You won't face riptides without marker lights, buffmanders, or farseer support. The fact that they require extra support doesn't stop it from happening.

My first game against a drake, I had a plague marine with max range plasma hit with a 6, pen, and explode it on the bottom of turn 2. No amount of luck could ever make that happen to a riptide. There's only half a dozen ranged weapons in the entire game that can ID, and only available to 3 codexes.

I have a Tau friend that actively brings 2-3 riptides in 1500-2000 point games, and I can happily say that my Turkeys have demolished them and everything else he brings with little to no casualties on my end.

The turkey requires positioning, no smart CSM player will ever not position the flamer and base of a Turkey to NOT Vector Strike + Burn a Riptide along with other models, In a lot of cases simply forcing wounds en mass kills Riptides from Vector Strikes, I in one game managed to outright kill one with several bad rolls on my opponents end (Which you have to consider is always a possibility, on either end of the board) and consequently lost one outright... Hell, I've had soul blaze kill a Riptide once... Everything is possible....

But Riptides excel at killing ground targets... With the possibility that they also may hurt themselves always prevalent,... The one thing to always make sure, is that you can position the template of you Baleflamer over a riptide to maximize your carnage... as in, over the riptide on the narrow end, and the rest of the template roasts 5-6 fire warriors and some broadsides.

I cannot stress how easy it is to push wounds this way, even against 2+.... with 2-3 drakes its disgusting...

Helldrake cant even hurt a riptide....unless it happen to be in the arc for some reason (usually better to avoid it and hit more legitimate targets) it should never be targeted by a helldrake.

It has T6 2+ save and 5 wounds. None of the helldrake attacks are AP2 so he has his armor save for everything (vector strikes are ap3 not 2) and wounds on a 4 with the flamer, 3s with vectors. Vectors are likely to wound but again, they dont pen the armor. Why would you waste it on a riptide instead of something else unless its a one in a million situation where the helldrake cant hit anything else?
4 Vector strikes and the Baleflamer all causing a wound if youre fortunate enough MIGHT cause a single wound, and still pretty low odds. If you even get that many hits/wounds anyway.

My friend made that mistake of sending his Helldrake at my riptide instead of roasting a group of firewarriors given the circumstance. Vectored it with perfect dice and torched it, didnt cause a single wound because of the 2+ save. He wasted the turn and was forced to enter hovermode to deal with the firewarriors before the end of the game, since he spaced out there was an objective 6" from them. Riptide immediately turned around and melta'd his face off, and incidentally he didnt completely finish the firewarriors either so i still got the objective.

Everybody who is saying that Heldrakes are extremely hard to kill (I think I read somebody call them "indestructable") clearly does not play with/against them, and just listens to internet "wisdom."
In my experience Heldrakes die almost every single game. Against Tau and Eldar, you might as well just give them the points.
Anybody who actually plays knows that 6s DO happen. Just because something has a 16.67% chance of occurring does not mean in any way that it will never happen.

16.7% change also increases in probability the more critical it is, it seems.

No idea how many times ive taken out a flier with my LAST remaining Loota because 1 out of 3 shots hit, penn'd, and i rolled a 6 and exploded it.

Like i said, for a vehicle the helldrake is very durable. Its still a vehicle and has that chance of utter failure lol

EDIT: Is it just me or is it sad that i have to say that? Vehicles shouldnt be easier to deal with than any other unit....lol...maybe the Explode! result should just cause a second hullpoint and Stunned, while still exploding if it ran out of HP this way.

Heldrakes murder troops, often with impunity, the general method of winning the game. The riptide is vulnerable to a lot more weapons than the helldrake as well. Poison in particular comes to mind. They are both really nasty pieces, but the helldrake just causes problems for me that Riptides don't.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
16.7% change also increases in probability the more critical it is, it seems.

No idea how many times ive taken out a flier with my LAST remaining Loota because 1 out of 3 shots hit, penn'd, and i rolled a 6 and exploded it.

Like i said, for a vehicle the helldrake is very durable. Its still a vehicle and has that chance of utter failure lol

EDIT: Is it just me or is it sad that i have to say that? Vehicles shouldnt be easier to deal with than any other unit....lol...maybe the Explode! result should just cause a second hullpoint and Stunned, while still exploding if it ran out of HP this way.

Lol, this is so true. I've gotten my heldrakes killed many times by the stray melta or plasma shot. It seems when you are counting on that one shot not to hit, it does. Then when you're crossing your fingers for anything but a 6, a big fat stars right back at you.

I think your idea for an extra hullpoint gone would actually be an amazing idea. However, I have to just sit here and pout at the state of vehicles.


Again, a Riptide is a MC with 2+ T6 5W. There is no easy way to kill one, barring JoWW. You say rely on ap2? You still need to get through that T6 and its invul, which could be a 3++ if your opponent sees it coming. Poison weapons? Going through 5 2+ saves is never easy, especially if you're close enough to deliver those shots.
The fact of the matter is, a riptide will not be in range of most of your army's shooting like a Heldrake will. A Riptide is more durable and OP in every way, no matter how you slice it.
In a vacuum, you can say there are a myriad of ways to kill a Riptide, but they really don't work in practice.

But I never feel desperation to kill a Riptide. A couple turns and two or three helldrakes can make it so you can't win.

Thats because it murders troops and barring bad Wound rolls it guarantees dead troops. Riptide can ignore cover and has the strength/AP to do it as well but it can scatter off, and the shape of the template skews a lot of results. Average Pi Plate hit against a player that spreads out is what 4-6 at best? Flamers usually get 6 minimum especially with the Torrent letting it get the perfect angle.

Riptide will never kill off all your troops unless you are balling them up like an idiot lol. Two or three MIGHT but you still have Gets Hot! bad luck or insane scatter results making a shot or two here and there not do anything at all...Helldrake doesnt have that issue.

As I said before, priorities, and figuring out where you can maneuver is most important... obviously no one will ever TRY to send a drake solely at a Riptide, that would be stupid.. But the extra wounds both provided by Vector Strike and 1 Wound by simply having the template skinny end, over a Riptide whenever possible as long as you are killing other stuff close to it, is NEVER a bad thing...

The riptide will still be a threat one year from now. The helldrake may or may not due to increasing skyfire. But the weapons a riptide can reliably drop at extreme range will always be a serious pain. Riptide all day.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The riptide will still be a threat one year from now. The helldrake may or may not due to increasing skyfire. But the weapons a riptide can reliably drop at extreme range will always be a serious pain. Riptide all day.

Very, very true. It has been less than a year and the Heldrake is probably only 60% as good now as it was when it first came out in my opinion. Skyfire is such an easy fix and no new codex will be without Skyfire options.

Somehow i doubt Orks would get a Skyfire option, since precise shooting is kinda out of the question with them.

I bet they'd get something like "Quickfire!" which is an S6 AP4 30" weapon thats Assault 2 normally, but against any model that has moved more than 6" they fire twice the shots but snap firing. Would be somethin like 40-60 shots being thrown so thats still going to be a lot of hits lol

The reason?

"Wild shootin' be da only way to shoot dem speedy gitz. See one? Dun aim, jus' SHOOT!"

I don't think either is overpowered necessarily.

They're both nasty units to deal with, each in their own way. Riptides need support, but Tau are like that.Chaos seem to be more about fielding tough units that can hold their own. A well supported riptide can blow the socks off just about anything with the same ease that a helldrake can. It doesn't have to leave itself vulnerable to take out high AV targets, getting to drop a S9 ordinance pieplate before a thrust move, compared to vector strike. While it is more vulnerable to more kinds of weapons, that has less to do with the survivability of the model than the type of model. Fliers are safe from most things that could whack a vehicle. So to toss out another pro / con list:

Riptide Pros
- Better use of cover
- Variety of hard hitting attacks to make it truly anti-everything
- Huge field presence (72" range, high BS and strips cover when supported)
- No doubling it out on Strength (T6)

Riptide Cons
- Vulnerable to the the usual anti-tank weapons
- Still has a chance of being damaged by lighter weapons (bolters can't do gak to AV12)
- Has a nasty habit of wounding itself (Equivalent of Gets Hot! 2 for it's nova charge)


Helldrake Pros
- Strong unit solo
- Variety of hard hitting attacks to make it truly anti-everything
- Remarkable toughness for a flier
- Incredible field presence and reach (range of possible hits from the flamer is huge)

Helldrake Cons
- Still a chance of it getting imploded
- Alot easier to hit with a well prepared army (3+ skyfire units that can damage it will be tough to avoid while still doing damage)
- Exposed to tank hunter (vehicle status lets units with tank hunter take it out quite a bit easier)

I'd still be more worried about dealing with a Helldrake. A guardsman squad might not have an easy time killing a riptide, but at least it has a chance. You run out of skyfire units with a helldrake over your head, you either just have to take the hits or snapshot your anti-tank weapons because anything lower than S7 probably isn't going to do gak.

Depends on the army I'm playing.

Riptides tend to cause a lot more problems for my Necrons, than Heldrakes.

Heldrakes cause a lot more problems for my Eldar, than Riptides do.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Helldrake cant even hurt a riptide....unless it happen to be in the arc for some reason

Helldrakes can fire in any direction. What arc?

This isn't a riptide vs helldrake death match. It's a study of which one has a greater game effect. The Tau have lots of other ways to shoot my face off. In fact, the Riptide has one of the lowest target priorities for me since it is such a pain to kill.

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Let me ask you: Can you field your army without a Riptide at all? Would you? Why not?

Because it just is so damned good, bordering OP with the synergies it can have.

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Let me ask you: Can you field your army without a Riptide at all? Would you? Why not?

Because it just is so damned good, bordering OP with the synergies it can have.

I definitely would (and indeed, have) field(ed) Tau armies without any Riptides. While the Riptide has great firepower, it really needs support from the rest of the Tau in order to be worth its points. Fundamentally speaking, if you end up shooting one BS3 pieplate per turn, that's really not a good use of 190+ points, especially given Gets Hot. Once the Riptide is supported by Pathfinders or other elements (allied Farseer or Tigurius rolling Divination powers, buff Commanders, etc.) it comes into its own, but I've found that without the right support Riptides become very expensive for what they give you.

Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

I hear vanguard w/melta bombs and power weapons in a DP are effective against riptides and basically anything else in or near the deployment zone



2 cents.

I used to worry about Helldrakes.

Then I got my new Eldar codex and I don't mind so much now. I played a game against 3 helldrakes, and my 4 wave serpents killed 1 per turn until none were left.

Yeah, the baleflamer is kinda nasty. But a heavy flamer is just as damaging to an army that is all T3 with 4+/5+ saves.

I had the same response when an opponent was all full of glee at charging a DP into a squad of guardians. "You realise your 300 point model will do exactly the same job as a squad of pretty much anything else, right?"


Riptides don't worry me too much either. They are only strong when they have support, and are wielded by a smart opponent. Get rid of the markerlights, and concentrate on the other shooting, and suddenly the Riptide isn't as scary.

Out of curiosity, what do the Eldar worry about? Maybe the new Tyranid codex? LOL

lol seems this little debate i started has heated up a lot, I honestly just wanted to know why anyone would feel that 2 riptides at 2000 poitns is soooooo super OP but not raise the same ruckus about seeing 2 heldrakes at 2,000 pts.

And i can't take factors like 'lucky explodes' results into consideration because by that same token i can drop pod a group of Ultramarines on a riptide with Tactical Doctrine activated and put enough shots on a riptide to kill it by mass of fire and it unluckily rolling all 1s.

I have had in 4th edition my 2+ save winged hive tyrant be killed by just 1 unit of fire warriors rapid firing at it, even though i was so sure that they were goners.

This is why i just can't see the riptide as this overwhelming threat that cant be taken out in a 2k game specially there only being 2 of them.

A heldrake you MUST be prepared for or you must rely on serious luck to deal with it before it eliminates all hope of winning from your end

 Kingsley wrote:
Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

Riptide is not dependant on Pathfinders, a tournament list rarely fields them. You will do fine with a buffmander and extras, creating a real monster of a unit.

Against all tournament evidence people give props to Heldrake over the Ripdide? They are both excellent units, but Riptide is way more versatile. Anything that has such staying power and starts on the board wins over a vehicle.

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

Riptide is not dependant on Pathfinders, a tournament list rarely fields them. You will do fine with a buffmander and extras, creating a real monster of a unit.

Buff commanders are a support element. They're usually more expensive than Pathfinders, too!

Naw wrote:
Against all tournament evidence people give props to Heldrake over the Ripdide? They are both excellent units, but Riptide is way more versatile. Anything that has such staying power and starts on the board wins over a vehicle.

I agree with this. I think Riptides are generally much better than Heldrakes. However, I think playing against Heldrakes can be much more frustrating than playing against Riptides. I don't consider either unit overpowered.

Riptides are great and get better the more you take. When you have 3-4 they are impossible to ignore.

Heldrakes are great but they get worse the more you take. 1 is a autotake in any CSM list but 3-4 isnt actually a good idea. They will kill off the few targets they can hurt and then do nothing for the rest of the game.

Exergy wrote:Riptides are great and get better the more you take. When you have 3-4 they are impossible to ignore.

Heldrakes are great but they get worse the more you take. 1 is a autotake in any CSM list but 3-4 isnt actually a good idea. They will kill off the few targets they can hurt and then do nothing for the rest of the game.

That's certainly true to take advantage of their survivability. If Riptides are 4 of the 8 big targets you're presenting, the enemy has to shoot at them within a few turns. It is not true for how well they do in shooting. Large templates will scatter off their targets completely on anything more than a 4. That means that on a standard scatter roll you have a 28% chance (7 or higher) of that S9 Ordinance pie plate doing feth all unless Riptides get some markerlight love. Every BS increasing markerlight it gets reduces the chance of it failing like that by 5.5%. All the sudden 4 Riptides are eating up 12 - 16 markerlights a turn, and it quickly becomes impossible to support them all. What problems Helldrakes have with difficulty with tough vehicles Riptides have with just missing if they're not supported. The baleflamer is nasty because it just goes wherever you put it. Only TEQ armor will get armor saves, nothing else gets cover saves.

In comparison to get that for a Riptide we have to overheat or nova charge (can be made a re-roll by spending points on upgrades or a support unit), Get line of sight within 6" movement, Get enough makerlights to make the shot fail-safe, and still have 2 more for ignores cover (6 - 7 makerlights). While that would give us a S8 pie plate or S9 ordinance pie plate, considering how it's pretty much impossible to feed ANY riptides that kind of markerlight support with any regularity, we get a harder hitting unit for something that has a decent chance of just missing all together.

Meanwhile CSM gets a unit that can autohit basically anything it wants within 27" of the model with ignores cover at S6, but can also Vector Strike during movement at S7 against side armor. Sure it might struggle to knock out tanks, but any other vehicle and any infantry that's not TEQ is easy pickings. Not to mention the difficulty factor in hitting a helldrake much less killing it while fighting against IWND every round. It's not impossible to kill, just a lot harder.

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Let me ask you: Can you field your army without a Riptide at all? Would you? Why not?

Because it just is so damned good, bordering OP with the synergies it can have.

Same as what Kingsley said before. Riptides are a huge point sink because of the necessary support to make them good at what they do. 2 Riptides at anything below 1500 pts is unreasonable, and while you COULD fit in 4 at 2000 or 2500 pts, you're less designing a unit you know will work and more relying on luck to make sure those riptides can actually hit what they need to. All at the expense of taking other units that while not as devastating against armor or T4 multiwound, are just as suited to taking out infantry or light vehicles AND don't need as many makerlights to do it.

The Riptide's weakness is it's statline as much as it is it's strength. The cost of support decreases it's viability at lower list levels, and the loss of those supports can severely reduce it's effectiveness at any list level. Other armies sometimes ignore a Riptide because you don't always need to kill it to keep it from being effective. So long as you have a single non-TEQ infantry on the board, or a vehicle with side armor less than 12, that is NOT something you can say about a Helldrake.

Kingsley wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

Riptide is not dependant on Pathfinders, a tournament list rarely fields them. You will do fine with a buffmander and extras, creating a real monster of a unit.

Buff commanders are a support element. They're usually more expensive than Pathfinders, too!

Naw wrote:
Against all tournament evidence people give props to Heldrake over the Ripdide? They are both excellent units, but Riptide is way more versatile. Anything that has such staying power and starts on the board wins over a vehicle.

I agree with this. I think Riptides are generally much better than Heldrakes. However, I think playing against Heldrakes can be much more frustrating than playing against Riptides. I don't consider either unit overpowered.

I believe when he said pathfinders, he meant markerlights in general. A pathfinder team is a great way to support a Riptide just because of how makerlight hungry it is. (even if they're too squishy for tournament play)

That's probably the case. Riptides can just hurt more types of units with it's weapon choices. But over a vehicle? If the helldrake was on the ground I'd say yes. But considering how hard it is to hit a flier with anything over S7, AV12 and IWND is tough enough to ignore some skyfire and more often than not shrug off the rest. That dynamic only improves the more fliers you take. 3 skyfire units in an army might be able to punish one helldrake, but they'll get torn to shreds by 3, likely before they can take any of them down. It's all chanced based of course, so it'll happen from time to time that a helldrake gets crippled or wrecked by a lucky interceptor roll before it can do anything, but if I'm facing a quarter of a 2000 pt list in helldrakes, you pretty much have to be lucky to take them all down. And as I said before with Riptides, they're tough alright, but even a gaggle of conscripts with flashlights can wound them if they're lucky.

Coldcast wrote:

Exergy wrote:Riptides are great and get better the more you take. When you have 3-4 they are impossible to ignore.

Heldrakes are great but they get worse the more you take. 1 is a autotake in any CSM list but 3-4 isnt actually a good idea. They will kill off the few targets they can hurt and then do nothing for the rest of the game.

That's certainly true to take advantage of their survivability. If Riptides are 4 of the 8 big targets you're presenting, the enemy has to shoot at them within a few turns. It is not true for how well they do in shooting. Large templates will scatter off their targets completely on anything more than a 4. That means that on a standard scatter roll you have a 28% chance (7 or higher) of that S9 Ordinance pie plate doing feth all unless Riptides get some markerlight love. Every BS increasing markerlight it gets reduces the chance of it failing like that by 5.5%. All the sudden 4 Riptides are eating up 12 - 16 markerlights a turn, and it quickly becomes impossible to support them all. What problems Helldrakes have with difficulty with tough vehicles Riptides have with just missing if they're not supported. The baleflamer is nasty because it just goes wherever you put it. Only TEQ armor will get armor saves, nothing else gets cover saves.

In comparison to get that for a Riptide we have to overheat or nova charge (can be made a re-roll by spending points on upgrades or a support unit), Get line of sight within 6" movement, Get enough makerlights to make the shot fail-safe, and still have 2 more for ignores cover (6 - 7 makerlights). While that would give us a S8 pie plate or S9 ordinance pie plate, considering how it's pretty much impossible to feed ANY riptides that kind of markerlight support with any regularity, we get a harder hitting unit for something that has a decent chance of just missing all together.

Meanwhile CSM gets a unit that can autohit basically anything it wants within 27" of the model with ignores cover at S6, but can also Vector Strike during movement at S7 against side armor. Sure it might struggle to knock out tanks, but any other vehicle and any infantry that's not TEQ is easy pickings. Not to mention the difficulty factor in hitting a helldrake much less killing it while fighting against IWND every round. It's not impossible to kill, just a lot harder.

I said 1 drake is great, I think 1 drake is better than 1 riptide even.
The problem with the drake is you run out of targets so fast. Drakes are great at killing 3+ save expensive that like to sit in cover. They excel at it. After you kill the enemy devistators you start running out of things to shoot. While you can keep them on the table indefinitly it means limiting what you can shoot. Blasting cheat units that are spread out isnt super useful. You can almost never hit the thing you went for last turn.

yes 6s to hit is difficult, but there is skyfire. There is no skyfire that easily kills a riptide. ID is nice, but it is usually only give out in combat and riptides can avoid combat. There are things you can do to a dake, hit them in their rear armor 10 that they will be showing you in order to stay on the table VS and flaming you.

I think the reason it is so close is the fact it is highly dependent on your army.
I play sisters, no legit skyfire option but fortificatins or allies (dumb -$$ power gaming model selling crap) which i refuse to use.
I have faced both helldrakes and riptides in tournie settings. When facing tau riptides are about third on my target priority list vs chaos heldrakes are number one. They own my t3 power armoured ladies.

canadianguy wrote:
I think the reason it is so close is the fact it is highly dependent on your army.
I play sisters, no legit skyfire option but fortificatins or allies (dumb -$$ power gaming model selling crap) which i refuse to use.
I have faced both helldrakes and riptides in tournie settings. When facing tau riptides are about third on my target priority list vs chaos heldrakes are number one. They own my t3 power armoured ladies.

well that is the thing, Heldrakes have a very specific niche. They dont do much against 2+ saves or medium-heavy armoed tanks. They also arent good against a horde.

Riptides are good against anything that is expensive. Even horde guard will likely have a tank or two to blast, if not it is unlikely the guard will be able to "bring it down" before the end of the game if they have their target priority straight and thus the tide can go in and contest.

Helldrakes main advantage is that it is a flyer. It gains all the survivability that comes with that. The mechanics of the game limit all players' ability to remove the helldrake from the table, no amount of strategy or stkill can compensate for its poorly written rules. Fighting a helldrakes comes down to luck 90% of the time. You try to to make it the center of focus so it doesn't through your army into chaos, and when you can you shoot it... you either kill it outright (penetrating hit, roll for Eplodes or Wrecked), or it dominates.

The Riptide is no threat to a knowledagable player. It has a large pool of glaring weaknesses. Firstly, it is just as vulnerable to assault as all Tau units are, Secondly the high T value breeeds overconfidence in its controlled player (cite any player who has ever played Eldar and used Wraithlords prior to 6e) High toughness does not equate to invulnerability. Poisoned weapons will roll it off the table very effectively (a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls). Pskyers such as librarians can use force weapons to 1-hit it. Special wargear (black mace) can 1-hit it. The list goes on and on... worst case secnario, just tarpit the thing and watch it fumble all game long...

 En Excelsis wrote:

The Riptide is no threat to a knowledagable player. It has a large pool of glaring weaknesses. Firstly, it is just as vulnerable to assault as all Tau units are, Secondly the high T value breeeds overconfidence in its controlled player (cite any player who has ever played Eldar and used Wraithlords prior to 6e) High toughness does not equate to invulnerability. Poisoned weapons will roll it off the table very effectively (a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls). Pskyers such as librarians can use force weapons to 1-hit it. Special wargear (black mace) can 1-hit it. The list goes on and on... worst case secnario, just tarpit the thing and watch it fumble all game long...

Umm?

So you're saying nobody at NOVA was a knowledgeable player? Because Riptides were probably the single most prevalent unit at the tournament, including the person who won the whole event using 4?

That's probably not what he's saying. There are alot of factors that determine how well a unit will do, and it takes a very skilled player to win with anything. Helldrakes I consider a 'safe' choice, because even the things that can pierce AV12 AND have skyfire will struggle to kill it more often than not. If you have flier positioning down, it's very easy to protect your weak armor. Barring luck, or a heavy skyfire list (I mean like 5+ skyfire units in a 2000k match, THATS a shift in playstyle) not much can keep it from doing what it does. The flamer autohits, Vector Strike is S7 1D3 +1 hits which won't do gak to tanks but can annihilate anything else. Even in mech lists with 50% of their points sunk into tanks, you can really kill anything else with it. It's a very powerful unit.

There is nothing short of luck that anyone can do to a helldrake to make it any less powerful than it is. With skill of execution and planning, you don't have to kill a riptide to take some of it's bite away. I know that if I was in the endgame facing down against a tough unit, I'd be pretty uncomfortable betting the match on a weapon that's going to miss completely about a third of the time. It can't serve the distraction role as well as a helldrake can because there is a chance that anything can wound it, AND it's vulnerable to normal high strength and anti-tank weapons. But it does, and it's not because it's particularly good at it, it's because it's the best the tau have for it. Even if they go down they might buy a Tau player enough rounds of shooting to make up for the points. I'm just saying that if you had a riptide statline in another army, it wouldn't be used for that purpose.

Riptides are definitely powerful units, and they're fairly new so strong counter tactics aren't as flushed out as they probably could be. As for running four of them, that takes ALOT of skill to do it right. If you screw up positioning it's not only going to cost you 10% of your army, it'll take away one of your big guns and it'll lose a unit ALOT more easily than if your helldrake is in LOS of 4 snapfiring units instead of 3. If you can do it right, running 4 is probably an advantage because of their firepower, but it's a difficult tactic. The tradeoff between helldrake and riptide is that the helldrake can't kill as many kind of units, but gets to do it with incredibly high survivability. I think it's more specifically that survivability that makes it better.

You're correct. That's mostly what I meant.

Helldrakes have a very specific function or role in the games they appear in. They perform that roll very well and it is almost impossible to deter them from it. The most effective way to deal with them is whether their attacks or to find ways to be safe from them (such as getting into close combat or using more vehicles). Addressing the Helldrake itself is folly. You're wasting shots that should be spent on engaging other enemy and freeing up those models to further engage your own units.

Riptides are dangerous only by proxy. They require pathfinders to be truly effective. removing the pathfinders (or other units that generate marker lights) you weaken the effectiveness of the Riptide. Conversely you can engage the Riptide and wound it reliably by normal means. And most importantly, the Riptide has a glaring vulnerability to close combat. So much so that any Tau player worth his salt will try like hell to keep it out of mellee.

 En Excelsis wrote:
(a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls).

5 warrior in rapid fire range and the venom. 22 shots. average 15 hit, 7 wound, 1.2 wounds get past the armor save. So yes, if they roll decently, and by decent I mean 4 times better than average, can kill it in one round of shooting.

A single lascannon has a .11 chance to destroy or weapon destroy a drake. A single lascannon rolling 4 times better than average has a .55 chance. A single lascannon is a lot cheaper than 5 DE warriors in a double cannon venom and is availible to more armies.

While I definitely think Riptides, properly kitted out, are superior to (and thus more OP than) Heldrakes, I will say that at 2000 points, you should have enough tools to deal with 2 of each. If, at 2K points, you're not bringing some plasma/grav/AP2/skyfire in a TAC list, then you're probably doing something wrong.

And if you're not running a TAC list, then you know already that you have a potentially exploitable blind spot.

It's the 3 or 4 of each lists (TauDar, TauSight, Blaos) that really make them OP.

1 Heldrake/Riptide at 2K points is a nuisance I should deal with just so it doesn't wreak havoc while I'm busy doing important things. 2 are a major threat that should be dealt with quickly, but aren't overbearing.

3 or 4 are too many to kill efficiently no matter how many special weapons/skyfire I stuff into my list.

Though Riptides are still more OP. At 2k points, all I need to invalidate a Helldrake rush is a 2nd primary detachment, 2 Quad Guns from two ADLs (8 TL interceptor), and a Hunter/Stalker tank (another 4 TL skyfire S7) or whatever skyfire my army has available to it. Total cost is somewhere around 300 points for total aerial domination, at least against pesky Helldrakes. Riptides, meanwhile, probably have a 4+ invuln from shielding, are T6 to start, have a greater than 48" range on some of their weapons, and can ignore all but the more intense fire with their 2+ save. I need specially designed units, or many regular units kitted out with plasma in a delivery system, to kill them.

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

Riptide can fall to weapons with the Instant Death rule (like Force Weapons), and can be swept in close combat. It's also vulnerable to psychic powers like Doom of Malantai, Jaws, Life Leech, Puppet Master, Smite, Psychic Shriek, Vortex of Doom, Warp Rift (nasty for a model with I2), and Zogwort's curse.
Riptides can also be tied up quite easily in close combat.

So can four helldrakes and four riptides happen now?

 Rismonite wrote:
So can four helldrakes and four riptides happen now?

Thamks to supplements, yes. Or at 2000 points, with double Force Org, 6+ can happen.

 En Excelsis wrote:
Helldrakes main advantage is that it is a flyer. It gains all the survivability that comes with that. The mechanics of the game limit all players' ability to remove the helldrake from the table, no amount of strategy or stkill can compensate for its poorly written rules. Fighting a helldrakes comes down to luck 90% of the time. You try to to make it the center of focus so it doesn't through your army into chaos, and when you can you shoot it... you either kill it outright (penetrating hit, roll for Eplodes or Wrecked), or it dominates.

The Riptide is no threat to a knowledagable player. It has a large pool of glaring weaknesses. Firstly, it is just as vulnerable to assault as all Tau units are, Secondly the high T value breeeds overconfidence in its controlled player (cite any player who has ever played Eldar and used Wraithlords prior to 6e) High toughness does not equate to invulnerability. Poisoned weapons will roll it off the table very effectively (a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls). Pskyers such as librarians can use force weapons to 1-hit it. Special wargear (black mace) can 1-hit it. The list goes on and on... worst case secnario, just tarpit the thing and watch it fumble all game long...

God, even post-Nova people are still posting tripe like this.

The number of Riptides in the winning lists versus the number of Helldrakes should tell you all you need to know; I said this when the Riptide first came out, and guess who was right?

Coldcast wrote:
I believe when he said pathfinders, he meant markerlights in general. A pathfinder team is a great way to support a Riptide just because of how makerlight hungry it is. (even if they're too squishy for tournament play).

I meant Pathfinders, not markerlights. They _are_ too squishy and an easy target. Why make it easy for your opponent?

Why do you assume Riptides only rely on markerlights when a buffmander gives it (them) much more use, e.g. twin-linking and ignore cover.

Perhaps some people should look into:

Force Weapons. GK have them. A lot.

Disruption weapons. Eldar have them. A lot.

Grav Weapons. pace Marines are gonna have them. A lot.

Meganobz. What Riptide? Get that big old transport up there 18" and git er done.

LasCannons. They have them. A lot.

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

With Heldrakes its just up hill to kill them. Sure, sometimes it happens quick. But then, sometimes totally hapless Warhammer players win too. So what? We all know Heldrakes are a serious wrecking back and scattering doesnt work AS well against them because of the torrent and teardrop angling.

Anyways, the battle rages on, butI think Heldrakes scare ME more.

 Jancoran wrote:

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

I love when people come up with this. Because when you face 2+ Riptides, everything is just sooo friggin' simple and straightforward: you can go wherever you want, do whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want. Yeah, you just place that 2 Riptides onto a table with 9 huge LoS blocking terrain in your deployment zone, you deploy your 2500 points of Riptide-killing awesomeness, Billy the autistic post-stroke victim takes command over the Tau and there you go! Every battle plays like this, right? I mean, it is not like your opponent can mitigate your abilities severely to kill the Riptides or - God forbids it! - plays smartly, dictates the game and forces you into playing a different game you want.

 Akaiyou wrote:
So I'm curious in a 2,000 points game for a NOVA tournament, which of these are considered more OP, a list bringing 2 heldrakes or one with 2 Riptides?


In my opinion the Heldrakes > Riptide.

Heldrake
Pros
1. Flyer
2. 5+ Invulnerable + It Will Not Die (on a friggin flyer)
3. S6 AP3 Torrent
4. Cheaper
5. Vector Strike

Cons
1. Might lose friends
2. 2+ Saves don't care for it

Riptide
Pros
1. Monstrous Creature
2. 5+ Invulnerable + Nova Charge
3. Ion Accelerator

Cons
1. Needs marketlight support
2. Poor in close combat
3. Higher Point Cost


That's my reasoning anyway, rip tides cost a lot of points to make best use of. While the Heldrake is cheaper and doesn't require any further upgrading or assistance from anything to make units evaporte.

So what about the rest of you? Do you consider 2 of either of these units to be 'too cheesy' for a NOVA tournament setting? How about for a standard pick up game? And which would you rank as more OP

Ah, but riptides are great for stomping nearby tanks due to Smash, due to it being a monstrous creature!

 Desubot wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

Simple

a single shot, even from a quad gun, can take it out or severely incapacitate it. a Riptide, save a the instakill bullet off of a IA vanquisher, takes far far far more shots to remove.

You have at best, a one in three chance per S7 hit of doing anything, and a one in three chance for it to bounce off, and the thing pretty much ignores one third of the vehicle damage chart and regens away hull point stripping like a king.

Not exactly very good odds.

Thus far in my experience, Riptides are quite a bit easier to kill. Tough statline and all, but the Helldrake just has so much survivability built in. It has AV12, 5++, IWND, it shrugs crew stunned results, all on top of being a flier. It produces a gameplay dynamic all its own that is to say, a typical TAC list will not have the skyfire output to take down a pair of them with any regularity. Particularly in lists where skyfire units could also be firing on other targets, this poses the rather considerable problem that defending against Helldrakes may pull firepower away from other targets while also not easily getting rid of the fliers before they can do damage. The other two options are to ignore the fliers and try to keep troop units alive (not an easy task for most non-marine armies) or alter your lists to include more skyfire to stand a better chance of fending off the Helldrakes.

Helldrakes aren't becoming less reliable because of increased skyfire, there is increased skyfire because of units like the Helldrake. Out of all the flier-centric shenanigans in 6th edition, the Helldrake is the epitome of it.

I've been going over battle reports, every single Tau list I've found has had at least one Riptide. Almost every one is put down by the end of the game, even in cases where they are not being focused on right off the bat. Some to special attacks, (Jaws of the World Wolf, Soulrazor) some to outright firepower, most to assault (even being swept). Most of them do damage to themselves through gets hot and nova charge rolls, rolls which it has to risk in order to get the special weapon stats that make it stand out. And then on top of that it STILL has to be supported by a signature system (thus limiting the commander's own firing) or be provided markerlights to ignore cover. And THEN it STILL risks missing because it's BS is only 3, and it's attacks don't autohit. All of this adds up to a unit that is less survivable, less reliable, more expensive, and more likely to die before it's killed it's value in points.

While I've seen less examples of CSM lists, I have only found one today that lost it's Helldrake. And if you don't think it's not going to kill 170 pts worth of enemy, and that the guy on the other side of the table isn't going to change his tactical decisions because of it you're dead wrong. When you start losing Helldrakes to assaults and counter fliers every match, that's when I'll believe that Riptides are anywhere near as powerful.

The quad gun alone is T-totally useless against the helldrake. Missilesides can win the hull stripping war, but precious little else can. It's even a chore for the mighty Vendetta and the not-so-mighty Stormraven after you turn the math crank.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


God, even post-Nova people are still posting tripe like this.

The number of Riptides in the winning lists versus the number of Helldrakes should tell you all you need to know; I said this when the Riptide first came out, and guess who was right?

This is a why I don't understand how riptide defenders even think there is a case here.

I have real problems with the fast moving monstrous creatures. Both riptide and wraithknight (which has its own S6 Ap2 weapon).

Heldrakes are scary but they also have to make it on the board. They also have 10 rear armour. I have had my opponent deep strike and shoot it up the bum plenty of times.

I think the shock of how the meta changed because of the heldrake gives it a lot scarier rep. As other have pointed out... Its a vehicle still. What would be scary if it was a FMC!!!

My opinion is this: The Nova list that trounced through everybody had 4 Riptides, not Helldrakes. I was at Nova and as I walked around I didnt see that many Helldrakes and I only ended up fighting 1 during my 8 rounds. Now that marines are out they will see a bit more play but a Tau list really doesnt have to fear helldrakes while a helldrake list (cause lets face it, thats pretty much all the codex has going for it now) must fear a Tau list. It is a vehicle that can be 1 shot out of the sky while JotWW is about the only thing that can 1 shot a riptide.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
JotWW is about the only thing that can 1 shot a riptide.

My Beast Hunter shells say hello...

 Exergy wrote:

 En Excelsis wrote:
(a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls).

5 warrior in rapid fire range and the venom. 22 shots. average 15 hit, 7 wound, 1.2 wounds get past the armor save. So yes, if they roll decently, and by decent I mean 4 times better than average, can kill it in one round of shooting.

A single lascannon has a .11 chance to destroy or weapon destroy a drake. A single lascannon rolling 4 times better than average has a .55 chance. A single lascannon is a lot cheaper than 5 DE warriors in a double cannon venom and is availible to more armies.

in what logical world?

you still have to pay for that squad carrying the lascannon...

5 warriors and a venom is what? 100 points? not even?

Which is more OP is a little vague IMO.

Which unit is a better unit IMO? Riptides

Which unit would I'd rather not see in my opponent's list? Heldrakes

Every list I build has things that can deal with 2+ armor, and or monstrous creatures.

2-3 heldrakes with 5+ invuls and IWND over load most TACs lists anti air capacity to quickly deal with.

Wow. The poll is literally 50/50 with 188 voters. Thats impressive.

I think the c:sm book made the meta more friendly to helldrakes and less friendly to riptides.

Command squads with grave on bikes shred units with a 2+=less units with 2+ around=good news for drakes, bad news for riptides.

No divination except for 1 named um character=more motivation to add a rune priest+ grave weapons have concussion=I1 mc/riptides after taking 1 grav wound+ jaws=dead riptide/mc.

schadenfreude 554398 6095984 d93a0ac3d0443a53d1f36e6754119c28.pn wrote:
No divination except for 1 named um character=more motivation to add a rune priest+ grave weapons have concussion=I1 mc/riptides after taking 1 grav wound+ jaws=dead riptide/mc.

I agree. It will take a couple of months for the impact of grav to scare the gak out of all of the 2+ guys out there. I don't think it will be the end of riptides, but you will start seeing ethereal/kroot bubblewraps become more common.

I was saying heldrakes over riptides because of my personal experience, but honestly at 2k 2 of neither is close to OP.

 Jancoran wrote:
Perhaps some people should look into:

Force Weapons. GK have them. A lot.

Disruption weapons. Eldar have them. A lot.

Grav Weapons. pace Marines are gonna have them. A lot.

Meganobz. What Riptide? Get that big old transport up there 18" and git er done.

LasCannons. They have them. A lot.

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

With Heldrakes its just up hill to kill them. Sure, sometimes it happens quick. But then, sometimes totally hapless Warhammer players win too. So what? We all know Heldrakes are a serious wrecking back and scattering doesnt work AS well against them because of the torrent and teardrop angling.

Anyways, the battle rages on, butI think Heldrakes scare ME more.

Force Weapons: Can barely get close, expensive units make Riptide points back Far faster

Disruption: Hardly taken

Grav Weapons: On bikes yes, can do well.

Meganobz: Hahahaha that vehicle isn't getting anywhere near close, a SnP unit is gonna footslog against a riptide with JSJ?

Lascannons: Cover saves, JSJ, it's like you've never fought Tau before... Kinda shows.

There's also the fact that the Tau Army in general is better then CSM at this stage, without the Heldrake CSM would be very, very weak competitively.

Looks like Helldrake is now on the lead slightly these arguments just get better and better, i'm learning some things i never knew here lol

Also I completely agree the previous NOVA didn't have to deal with space marines in the way that they'll have to from now on at all tournaments. Grav weapons and even centurions in land raiders are sure to make that 4 riptide list obsolete, specially with how much better SM bikes have gotten now.

Where as skyfire is still expensive to field

 Akaiyou wrote:

Also I completely agree the previous NOVA didn't have to deal with space marines in the way that they'll have to from now on at all tournaments. Grav weapons and even centurions in land raiders are sure to make that 4 riptide list obsolete, specially with how much better SM bikes have gotten now.

The problem is that the competitive scene is going towards a very strict rock-paper-scissor setup: Riptide Spam beats Baledrake Spam, Baledrake Spam beats White Scar Grav Spam, and White Scar Grav Spam beats Riptide Spam. But the problem is with the lizard and Spock (eg: the other armies) - Riptide Spam and Baledrake Spam can beat them for good, but the White Scar Grav Spam... I dunno... It isn't exactly the linchpin of TAC builds, so to say.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Akaiyou wrote:

Also I completely agree the previous NOVA didn't have to deal with space marines in the way that they'll have to from now on at all tournaments. Grav weapons and even centurions in land raiders are sure to make that 4 riptide list obsolete, specially with how much better SM bikes have gotten now.

The problem is that the competitive scene is going towards a very strict rock-paper-scissor setup: Riptide Spam beats Baledrake Spam, Baledrake Spam beats White Scar Grav Spam, and White Scar Grav Spam beats Riptide Spam. But the problem is with the lizard and Spock (eg: the other armies) - Riptide Spam and Baledrake Spam can beat them for good, but the White Scar Grav Spam... I dunno... It isn't exactly the linchpin of TAC builds, so to say.

I lol'ed hard at the rock, paper, scissor, lizard, Spock.


BTW serpent spam would be Spock not lizard.

If your army gets RPSed by any of the main competitive armies... you don't have a competitive army.

Relying on good matchups to win a 5-7 game tournament is far from effective, especially now that more tournaments are using a win/loss rather than Battle Points dynamic.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Perhaps some people should look into:

Force Weapons. GK have them. A lot.

Disruption weapons. Eldar have them. A lot.

Grav Weapons. pace Marines are gonna have them. A lot.

Meganobz. What Riptide? Get that big old transport up there 18" and git er done.

LasCannons. They have them. A lot.

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

With Heldrakes its just up hill to kill them. Sure, sometimes it happens quick. But then, sometimes totally hapless Warhammer players win too. So what? We all know Heldrakes are a serious wrecking back and scattering doesnt work AS well against them because of the torrent and teardrop angling.

Anyways, the battle rages on, butI think Heldrakes scare ME more.

Force Weapons: Can barely get close, expensive units make Riptide points back Far faster

Disruption: Hardly taken

Grav Weapons: On bikes yes, can do well.

Meganobz: Hahahaha that vehicle isn't getting anywhere near close, a SnP unit is gonna footslog against a riptide with JSJ?

Lascannons: Cover saves, JSJ, it's like you've never fought Tau before... Kinda shows.

There's also the fact that the Tau Army in general is better then CSM at this stage, without the Heldrake CSM would be very, very weak competitively.

Im an expert Tau general. I was in 4th, 5th an 6th. So I know Tau. Your arguments boil down to "good luck, itll never work". Sadly thats no argument.

Each of them has a diferent roll in the field.

helldrake got a chance to get popped off the sky with 1 shoot easier than a riptide and hes more limited to movement although he benefit from flyer but lose protection.

Riptide got wounds so wont die that easily, can die to instant death though, gain acess to cover easier but can get locked in combat to tie up which just that reason is bad enough, riptide tied up in combat is not good, just in some occasions is good to tie up, but very situational


I just admit the helldrake might come on the upper hand in 1 thing, taking off troops capturing stuff, with the exception of troop choice terminator squad... watever is the rest, its gonna get burned more efficiently than a riptide shooting at it. The riptide can shoot 20x as much as an helldrake, but gives way more chances for the targetting squad to get cover or line of sight blocked or watever. In that way the helldrake gets better showing up werever he wants to maximize his aproax and focus on burning 1 squad at a time with his torrent flaming option. Just for that the helldrake gets more competent to remove capturing objective threats.

And all this without taking 3rds to do their filthy job taking cover and such... which gives 1+ reason for the helldrake to be more competent attacking on capturing objective troops.

For taking on light armoured vehicles, heavier armoured foes or monsters with amount of gunfire power? riptide all day

TBH neither.

Riptides aren't a big deal. They have a 1/3 chance to fail to make their main gun actually good. They're also a bit of a jack of all trades, decent at a few things, but not really specialized at any one task. They go down hard to shooting and close combat with massed low S attacks or high S attacks with things like PFs etc.

They are a solid choice in an army with lots of other shooting and more importantly a LOT of synergy. A Riptide with a Buffmander is a serious threat, but also a lot of eggs in one basket.

Helldrakes are in a lower threat category. They are a one trick pony that is great at one thing, flaming down high value 3+ armor units.

They have 2 major weaknesses. One is that they are flyers. Flyers get and average 2-3 turns of effective fire per game. That's basically it. They benefit from having torrent fire, but even still there is only a limited window time/targets that they can hit before they have to go off the board due to maneuvers or enemy fire.

Their other major weakness is that the are part of the CSM codex, which has about 3-4 good units total incl the Helldrake, so really they're not a big deal in the current competitive environment.

Helldrakes are just to hunt troops and create a bullet magnet due to their " player passing word" of being beasty.

They do are annoying and being a flyer that can shoot 360º 20" flamer torrent can be a bit pain. Also only flyer with 12 all round and 5+ invul combined.

Although if you wanted to make whos more OP bettewn riptide and helldrake youre seriously pointing the wrong target

Riptide on CSM are Equivalent to CSM Nurgle obliterators, those are the closest equivalent things to riptide.

One thing i find fun in these arguments is all the "but Riptide lists were so present at NOVA while drakes were not".
Does that mean that Riptide is more OP then Drakes? NO.
What it means is that a TAU list with Riptides is more powerfull then a CSM with Helldrakes.

As mentionned about 150 times in the exchanges, Riptides are really great when buffed (barseer, commander, ML...).
Lets say you face a list of SM with one allied helldrake or one allied Riptide, which would be better? (then they do not benefit from the rest of TAU great synergy).
As a GK i would say that i would prefer facing a Riptide then a drake.
However i prefer facing a CSM drake heavy list then a Riptide heavy Tau list. But that is only due to what makes the riptide good, which is not itself alone...

Yeah heldrakes are prolly more "op" in that they don't roll to hit with vector strike or flamer, both ignore cover, it can ignore the assault phase, and most of the shooting phase.

The main issue is the "CSM" tax of using them with other less powerful units. Riptides are a solid unit in a fully solid codex.

sleekid wrote:
One thing i find fun in these arguments is all the "but Riptide lists were so present at NOVA while drakes were not".
Does that mean that Riptide is more OP then Drakes? NO.
What it means is that a TAU list with Riptides is more powerfull then a CSM with Helldrakes.

As mentionned about 150 times in the exchanges, Riptides are really great when buffed (barseer, commander, ML...).
Lets say you face a list of SM with one allied helldrake or one allied Riptide, which would be better? (then they do not benefit from the rest of TAU great synergy).
As a GK i would say that i would prefer facing a Riptide then a drake.
However i prefer facing a CSM drake heavy list then a Riptide heavy Tau list. But that is only due to what makes the riptide good, which is not itself alone...

I agree. Looking at the units by themselves, the helldrake is a much nastier stand-alone threat imo. The riptide tends to be hard to put down, but is very unpredictable with it's firepower. Once you factor in the rest of the army, the riptide becomes considerably more deadly, but to do so relies on support elements that are relatively easy to dispose of. The helldrake retains it's offensive and defensive qualities, regardless of what units you are supporting it with.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

sleekid wrote:
One thing i find fun in these arguments is all the "but Riptide lists were so present at NOVA while drakes were not".
Does that mean that Riptide is more OP then Drakes? NO.
What it means is that a TAU list with Riptides is more powerfull then a CSM with Helldrakes.

As mentionned about 150 times in the exchanges, Riptides are really great when buffed (barseer, commander, ML...).
Lets say you face a list of SM with one allied helldrake or one allied Riptide, which would be better? (then they do not benefit from the rest of TAU great synergy).
As a GK i would say that i would prefer facing a Riptide then a drake.
However i prefer facing a CSM drake heavy list then a Riptide heavy Tau list. But that is only due to what makes the riptide good, which is not itself alone...

I agree. Looking at the units by themselves, the helldrake is a much nastier stand-alone threat imo. The riptide tends to be hard to put down, but is very unpredictable with it's firepower. Once you factor in the rest of the army, the riptide becomes considerably more deadly, but to do so relies on support elements that are relatively easy to dispose of. The helldrake retains it's offensive and defensive qualities, regardless of what units you are supporting it with.

Ever play a Tau army that uses tetras? They're not all that easy to dispose of. With disruption pods equipped you are forced to spend an inordinate amount of fire power to take down his highly mobile markerlights. Much tougher nut than pathfinders if you ask me. Also a riptides buffmander is going to be difficult to eliminate as well. I haven't faced a combo like that yet but i will soon. As someone who plays against multiple riptides regularly, I cant stand them.

That being said, what is the best way to deal with 2 riptides? Focus fire on 1 and ignore the other? Ignore both and focus fire on troops? Neither option seems good, but I can't think of many others (besides JotWW, Force Weapons, Distort weaponry, other effects that are not reliable)

astro_nomicon wrote:

Ever play a Tau army that uses tetras? They're not all that easy to dispose of. With disruption pods equipped you are forced to spend an inordinate amount of fire power to take down his highly mobile markerlights. Much tougher nut than pathfinders if you ask me. Also a riptides buffmander is going to be difficult to eliminate as well. I haven't faced a combo like that yet but i will soon. As someone who plays against multiple riptides regularly, I cant stand them.

That being said, what is the best way to deal with 2 riptides? Focus fire on 1 and ignore the other? Ignore both and focus fire on troops? Neither option seems good, but I can't think of many others (besides JotWW, Force Weapons, Distort weaponry, other effects that are not reliable)

As a Tau player I enjoy playing against enemy tetras as they melt just as easily as pathfinders in woods.

astro_nomicon wrote:
Ever play a Tau army that uses tetras? They're not all that easy to dispose of. With disruption pods equipped you are forced to spend an inordinate amount of fire power to take down his highly mobile markerlights. Much tougher nut than pathfinders if you ask me. Also a riptides buffmander is going to be difficult to eliminate as well. I haven't faced a combo like that yet but i will soon. As someone who plays against multiple riptides regularly, I cant stand them.

That being said, what is the best way to deal with 2 riptides? Focus fire on 1 and ignore the other? Ignore both and focus fire on troops? Neither option seems good, but I can't think of many others (besides JotWW, Force Weapons, Distort weaponry, other effects that are not reliable)

Honestly, they don't pose much of a problem for either my necrons or DA to take out in a turn or two

I'll knock out the markerlight support, then the troops, then if there is time/resources, focus the riptides one at a time. This is assuming they aren't packing a missileside deathstar, which is usually priority number one, depending on what I'm bringing.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 En Excelsis wrote:
(a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls).

5 warrior in rapid fire range and the venom. 22 shots. average 15 hit, 7 wound, 1.2 wounds get past the armor save. So yes, if they roll decently, and by decent I mean 4 times better than average, can kill it in one round of shooting.

A single lascannon has a .11 chance to destroy or weapon destroy a drake. A single lascannon rolling 4 times better than average has a .55 chance. A single lascannon is a lot cheaper than 5 DE warriors in a double cannon venom and is availible to more armies.

in what logical world?

you still have to pay for that squad carrying the lascannon...

5 warriors and a venom is what? 100 points? not even?

5 warriors and a venom costs 110pts
about the same as 5 marines with 2 lascannons. Of course 5 marines with 2 lascannons are fodder for any heldrake. 5 warriors in a Venom isnt exactly hard for a riptide to kill either.

I LOOOVVVEEE my riptides. But I'd say Helldrake gets the edge. I run my riptides without wasting points on markerlights and they do amazing things but the helldrake can do a lot of damage in only 2 turns.

Galanur wrote:


They do are annoying and being a flyer that can shoot 360º 20" flamer torrent can be a bit pain. Also only flyer with 12 all round and 5+ invul combined.

Drakes are 12/12/10 unless they got an awesome FAQ recently.

Wow this ended in a draw? -shocked-