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So I'm curious in a 2,000 points game for a NOVA tournament, which of these are considered more OP, a list bringing 2 heldrakes or one with 2 Riptides?


In my opinion the Heldrakes > Riptide.

Heldrake
Pros
1. Flyer
2. 5+ Invulnerable + It Will Not Die (on a friggin flyer)
3. S6 AP3 Torrent
4. Cheaper
5. Vector Strike

Cons
1. Might lose friends
2. 2+ Saves don't care for it

Riptide
Pros
1. Monstrous Creature
2. 5+ Invulnerable + Nova Charge
3. Ion Accelerator

Cons
1. Needs marketlight support
2. Poor in close combat
3. Higher Point Cost


That's my reasoning anyway, rip tides cost a lot of points to make best use of. While the Heldrake is cheaper and doesn't require any further upgrading or assistance from anything to make units evaporte.

So what about the rest of you? Do you consider 2 of either of these units to be 'too cheesy' for a NOVA tournament setting? How about for a standard pick up game? And which would you rank as more OP

Heldrakes dont need anything to rock and you cant stop them from getting at LEAST one devastating shot off, and their saves and regeneration are silly. You need 6's to hit them, and even then its AV 12. So ALL high value shooting attack units have to attack it to avoid a massacre.

A Riptide can be outflanked and subsequently killed. ONE wound in melee can be all it takes. They fire an equally mean weapon, but one that is EASIER to plan for, from a formations perspective and without Markerlight support, the scatters do cost you a lot of points for no gain at times, which is one reason why Burst Cannon wielding Riptides are preferred by some Generals (Ripple Fire is nice alongside that bad boy.)

So I give the nod to Heldrakes. In larger numbers the Heldrakes progressively become more powerful, as the amount of fire needed to take them out RAPIDLY runs out whereas a Riptide can be killed with a few Ravens Claws or Grav guns.

Overall, the nod HAS to be to the Heldrake. that is in NO way to say that Riptides aren't good. I use two of them myself. But my Heldrake seems scarier than my Riptides when I am playing with them.

Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

What do you so oftenly use to 1 shot a heldrake? And does this occur in a tournament setting? I don't see many tournament players letting their drakes get owned without barbecuing all possible threats first...just saying.

 Akaiyou wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

What do you so oftenly use to 1 shot a heldrake? And does this occur in a tournament setting? I don't see many tournament players letting their drakes get owned without barbecuing all possible threats first...just saying.

Well even a quad gun has a chance (slim or not) to straight remove a hell turkey on an intercept.

try that on a riptide and you can expect it to be up on turn 7.

I vote riptide for as above stated. Also a hell drake as cool as it is wont hurt 2+ too often.

Against me? Helldrakes. My terminators and sternguard make short work of Riptides. Helldrakes present a far greater problem.

 Akaiyou wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

What do you so oftenly use to 1 shot a heldrake? And does this occur in a tournament setting? I don't see many tournament players letting their drakes get owned without barbecuing all possible threats first...just saying.

Vendettas can do it fairly often, and for 130 points why not.

This isn't even remotely a challenge.

The helldrake is a vehicle (so can get one-shotted), and it has fewer HP than the riptide has W, and the riptide has a Sv2+, and the riptide can gain cover saves more easily, and the riptide starts on the board, and the riptide has better range, and it can see in the dark, and isn't vulnerable to interceptor fire, and doesn't get much worse when skyfire weapons are around, and can be actually pretty decent in close combat, and can make use of markerlights, and have the weaponry to be able to kill anything in the game, and can take interceptor, and has all of the interesting nova abilities.

The helldrake shows up late, has mobility restrictions and range problems, is vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, and can only handle a single class of targets particularly well - a class of targets that the codex its in should have no problems handling.

Riptides have every advantage are something that makes your opponent not be able to play the game.

One of them is of dubious use, and the other is OP. There's not much of a competition here.

Not much of a competition and yet the voting indicate otherwise.

Many fair points on riptides's defense strengths have been brought up but I have to mention the following.

Yes skyfire is good against flyers because it allow you to shoot at them as normal. But how much skyfire is everyone reasonably bringing to the table?? The heldrake is something you MUST account for in your army build by spending a LOT of points on things to kill it, where as I have a hard time thinking of any army in the game who's basic weapons would NOT be able to put wounds on a riptide.

Specially in the current plasma loving metagame that's predominant in 6th edition. How is it that so many of you cant take out what's most likely the toughest flyer int the game, versus a good shooty monstrous creature that you can literally toss any weapon at and have a better chance of damaging it without adding any 'extras' to your build.

2+ Sv monstrous creatures are awesome but even bolters can take one down. The heldrake will be largely immune to anything not at least S6, with it's very small rear being the only weakness to S5.

I always have at least one thing with skyfire be it a Cntemptor, Helios LR, or just guys with flakk missiles. The Riptide is an absolute beast and far deadlier over time than a Helldrake

Col. Dash wrote:
I always have at least one thing with skyfire be it a Cntemptor, Helios LR, or just guys with flakk missiles. The Riptide is an absolute beast and far deadlier over time than a Helldrake

So mostly forgeworld models that aren't allowed in tournaments? Flakk missles aren't scary to a heldrake. Can they blow it up? Yup. Do they? Not once in my experience.

The riptide is indeed 2+, but plasma is very prolific in 6th. I fear heldrakes more than riptides period.
I do however, fear Tau more than Chaos...

Yeah, I have to go with the helldrakes here. I understand what Ailaros is saying, but the helldrakes can eliminate scoring units much quicker than a riptide.

The Tau as a whole list is much scarier than the CSM, though.

Without proper marker support the riptides won't be nearly as deadly against most targets, however it won't die. Helldrakes are insanely durable for a vehicle...but they're still a vehicle. IWND doesn't help if you get a 6 rolled on ya.

However I'd go with riptides. Two 8man Pathfinders will provide plenty of marker support for an additional 172ish points. Costs more than the helldrakes in the end but has a much wider range of use.

Helldrake is just an independent bastard is all.

 Ailaros wrote:
This isn't even remotely a challenge.

The helldrake is a vehicle (so can get one-shotted), and it has fewer HP than the riptide has W, and the riptide has a Sv2+, and the riptide can gain cover saves more easily, and the riptide starts on the board, and the riptide has better range, and it can see in the dark, and isn't vulnerable to interceptor fire, and doesn't get much worse when skyfire weapons are around, and can be actually pretty decent in close combat, and can make use of markerlights, and have the weaponry to be able to kill anything in the game, and can take interceptor, and has all of the interesting nova abilities.

The helldrake shows up late, has mobility restrictions and range problems, is vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, and can only handle a single class of targets particularly well - a class of targets that the codex its in should have no problems handling.

Riptides have every advantage are something that makes your opponent not be able to play the game.

One of them is of dubious use, and the other is OP. There's not much of a competition here.

and one while ignored does nothing, the other while ignored can contest an objective

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
This isn't even remotely a challenge.

The helldrake is a vehicle (so can get one-shotted), and it has fewer HP than the riptide has W, and the riptide has a Sv2+, and the riptide can gain cover saves more easily, and the riptide starts on the board, and the riptide has better range, and it can see in the dark, and isn't vulnerable to interceptor fire, and doesn't get much worse when skyfire weapons are around, and can be actually pretty decent in close combat, and can make use of markerlights, and have the weaponry to be able to kill anything in the game, and can take interceptor, and has all of the interesting nova abilities.

The helldrake shows up late, has mobility restrictions and range problems, is vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, and can only handle a single class of targets particularly well - a class of targets that the codex its in should have no problems handling.

Riptides have every advantage are something that makes your opponent not be able to play the game.

One of them is of dubious use, and the other is OP. There's not much of a competition here.

and one while ignored torches units off of objectives wholesale, the other while ignored can contest an objective

Ftfy

The question wasn't which is more op when you add support, it was which is more op. The riptide just isn't as vicious without markerlight support, while the heldrake is great by itself. Add an additional 172 points (plus the 20 or so points of initial cost difference) and you have around 200 points of support for the heldrake. At that points value, I buy a squad of nurgle oblits and deep strike them on the pathfinders. See how that works when you start adding?


On an exclusive per-unit basis, the heldrake wins the scary prize.

Neither are OP

Tau because Tau master race.

I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Realistically, most armies that can't deal with Riptides are unlikely to be balanced compositions-- with the possible exception of Orks, who currently lack any effective AP1/2 outside of close combat.

Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

 Jancoran wrote:
Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

Simple

a single shot, even from a quad gun, can take it out or severely incapacitate it. a Riptide, save a the instakill bullet off of a IA vanquisher, takes far far far more shots to remove.

Riptides obey all the regular rules of 40k paradigm we've learned over the years. While they might be tough and have a large radius of low AP weaponry, it's nothing outside the box.

Helldrakes break the paradigm. They're essentially indestructible. They have S6 AP3, ignores cover weapon with an unlimited turning arc and 4 feet of effective range. They are immune to assault.

Riptides are good, but conventional. Helldrakes are an outlier.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

Simple

a single shot, even from a quad gun, can take it out or severely incapacitate it. a Riptide, save a the instakill bullet off of a IA vanquisher, takes far far far more shots to remove.

Yet I have never seen it happen. Not once. Just because it is a statistical probability doesn't mean it is at all likely. Every army I play can readily deal with 2 riptides at 2k and they will not do much damage to me before dying. 2 heldrakes give me a headache. They are tough to get rid of, but most of all, they are devastating all by themselves. The riptide needs you to tie 550 - 600 points in 2 to work properly, 2 heldrakes require ~350 points to work.

I honestly don't know what your doing to nulify 2 riptides that quickly but i remove heldraks frequently with an Icarus las cannon and a purtide chip commander. or even EWO Broadsides.

Besides that you only need a weapon destroyed or explosion result to really neuter a heldrake.

I have like a 20 page thread on this, but let's not dig up the past...

There's a reason why the winner of Nova Open has 4 Riptides and not 4 Helldrakes.

O'Vesa + Iontide with a Chip Commander is the most op unit in the game bar none at the moment.

Effective from turn one, ignores cover, monster and tank hunter, can soak a hell of a lot of shots.

Helldrakes are OP because other than interceptor and list structure/capability there is no defence. They arrive, they place a template, you remove your guys. You can only rely on your opponent rolling plenty of ones, and not using Daemonforge. Thing is, you don't have to build your list that differently to combat them. Just make sure that any loss is sustainable and that you can kill them after they arrive before they cause more damage.

Now Riptides are a big problem. You need a large amount of firepower that is often rare or exceedingly expensive to bring one down. You have to alter your list specifically so if they show up you're not boned. They're capable of decimating anything you throw at them short of high armour value vehicles. At low points levels they're flat out over the line broken - my GW store ran a 'chuck norris challenge' recently, wherein one army of 600 points had to take on 1200 points split between two other players.

The guy with 600 points had two Riptides. I said 'where's your AP2? how are you going to take down the Riptides?' and they (the 1200 pointers) had no answer. Guess who won with all the victory points and not a single Riptide lost. Whoops, spoilers.

Drakes do not bother me.

Riptides... yeah, they are much more scary.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I have like a 20 page thread on this, but let's not dig up the past...

There's a reason why the winner of Nova Open has 4 Riptides and not 4 Helldrakes.

O'Vesa + Iontide with a Chip Commander is the most op unit in the game bar none at the moment.

Effective from turn one, ignores cover, monster and tank hunter, can soak a hell of a lot of shots.

This.

NOVA results speak strongly. Support units and points invested are irrelevant. You won't make the guy tabling you with riptides feel bad that he spent extra points on marker lights and a buffmander. You won't face riptides without marker lights, buffmanders, or farseer support. The fact that they require extra support doesn't stop it from happening.

My first game against a drake, I had a plague marine with max range plasma hit with a 6, pen, and explode it on the bottom of turn 2. No amount of luck could ever make that happen to a riptide. There's only half a dozen ranged weapons in the entire game that can ID, and only available to 3 codexes.

I have a Tau friend that actively brings 2-3 riptides in 1500-2000 point games, and I can happily say that my Turkeys have demolished them and everything else he brings with little to no casualties on my end.

The turkey requires positioning, no smart CSM player will ever not position the flamer and base of a Turkey to NOT Vector Strike + Burn a Riptide along with other models, In a lot of cases simply forcing wounds en mass kills Riptides from Vector Strikes, I in one game managed to outright kill one with several bad rolls on my opponents end (Which you have to consider is always a possibility, on either end of the board) and consequently lost one outright... Hell, I've had soul blaze kill a Riptide once... Everything is possible....

But Riptides excel at killing ground targets... With the possibility that they also may hurt themselves always prevalent,... The one thing to always make sure, is that you can position the template of you Baleflamer over a riptide to maximize your carnage... as in, over the riptide on the narrow end, and the rest of the template roasts 5-6 fire warriors and some broadsides.

I cannot stress how easy it is to push wounds this way, even against 2+.... with 2-3 drakes its disgusting...

Helldrake cant even hurt a riptide....unless it happen to be in the arc for some reason (usually better to avoid it and hit more legitimate targets) it should never be targeted by a helldrake.

It has T6 2+ save and 5 wounds. None of the helldrake attacks are AP2 so he has his armor save for everything (vector strikes are ap3 not 2) and wounds on a 4 with the flamer, 3s with vectors. Vectors are likely to wound but again, they dont pen the armor. Why would you waste it on a riptide instead of something else unless its a one in a million situation where the helldrake cant hit anything else?
4 Vector strikes and the Baleflamer all causing a wound if youre fortunate enough MIGHT cause a single wound, and still pretty low odds. If you even get that many hits/wounds anyway.

My friend made that mistake of sending his Helldrake at my riptide instead of roasting a group of firewarriors given the circumstance. Vectored it with perfect dice and torched it, didnt cause a single wound because of the 2+ save. He wasted the turn and was forced to enter hovermode to deal with the firewarriors before the end of the game, since he spaced out there was an objective 6" from them. Riptide immediately turned around and melta'd his face off, and incidentally he didnt completely finish the firewarriors either so i still got the objective.