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You're correct. That's mostly what I meant.

Helldrakes have a very specific function or role in the games they appear in. They perform that roll very well and it is almost impossible to deter them from it. The most effective way to deal with them is whether their attacks or to find ways to be safe from them (such as getting into close combat or using more vehicles). Addressing the Helldrake itself is folly. You're wasting shots that should be spent on engaging other enemy and freeing up those models to further engage your own units.

Riptides are dangerous only by proxy. They require pathfinders to be truly effective. removing the pathfinders (or other units that generate marker lights) you weaken the effectiveness of the Riptide. Conversely you can engage the Riptide and wound it reliably by normal means. And most importantly, the Riptide has a glaring vulnerability to close combat. So much so that any Tau player worth his salt will try like hell to keep it out of mellee.

 En Excelsis wrote:
(a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls).

5 warrior in rapid fire range and the venom. 22 shots. average 15 hit, 7 wound, 1.2 wounds get past the armor save. So yes, if they roll decently, and by decent I mean 4 times better than average, can kill it in one round of shooting.

A single lascannon has a .11 chance to destroy or weapon destroy a drake. A single lascannon rolling 4 times better than average has a .55 chance. A single lascannon is a lot cheaper than 5 DE warriors in a double cannon venom and is availible to more armies.

While I definitely think Riptides, properly kitted out, are superior to (and thus more OP than) Heldrakes, I will say that at 2000 points, you should have enough tools to deal with 2 of each. If, at 2K points, you're not bringing some plasma/grav/AP2/skyfire in a TAC list, then you're probably doing something wrong.

And if you're not running a TAC list, then you know already that you have a potentially exploitable blind spot.

It's the 3 or 4 of each lists (TauDar, TauSight, Blaos) that really make them OP.

1 Heldrake/Riptide at 2K points is a nuisance I should deal with just so it doesn't wreak havoc while I'm busy doing important things. 2 are a major threat that should be dealt with quickly, but aren't overbearing.

3 or 4 are too many to kill efficiently no matter how many special weapons/skyfire I stuff into my list.

Though Riptides are still more OP. At 2k points, all I need to invalidate a Helldrake rush is a 2nd primary detachment, 2 Quad Guns from two ADLs (8 TL interceptor), and a Hunter/Stalker tank (another 4 TL skyfire S7) or whatever skyfire my army has available to it. Total cost is somewhere around 300 points for total aerial domination, at least against pesky Helldrakes. Riptides, meanwhile, probably have a 4+ invuln from shielding, are T6 to start, have a greater than 48" range on some of their weapons, and can ignore all but the more intense fire with their 2+ save. I need specially designed units, or many regular units kitted out with plasma in a delivery system, to kill them.

herpguy wrote:
Heldrakes are waaaaay easier to kill than riptides.
Heldrakes can be 1 shotted rather easily (happens all the time).
There really is no comparison.

Riptide can fall to weapons with the Instant Death rule (like Force Weapons), and can be swept in close combat. It's also vulnerable to psychic powers like Doom of Malantai, Jaws, Life Leech, Puppet Master, Smite, Psychic Shriek, Vortex of Doom, Warp Rift (nasty for a model with I2), and Zogwort's curse.
Riptides can also be tied up quite easily in close combat.

So can four helldrakes and four riptides happen now?

 Rismonite wrote:
So can four helldrakes and four riptides happen now?

Thamks to supplements, yes. Or at 2000 points, with double Force Org, 6+ can happen.

 En Excelsis wrote:
Helldrakes main advantage is that it is a flyer. It gains all the survivability that comes with that. The mechanics of the game limit all players' ability to remove the helldrake from the table, no amount of strategy or stkill can compensate for its poorly written rules. Fighting a helldrakes comes down to luck 90% of the time. You try to to make it the center of focus so it doesn't through your army into chaos, and when you can you shoot it... you either kill it outright (penetrating hit, roll for Eplodes or Wrecked), or it dominates.

The Riptide is no threat to a knowledagable player. It has a large pool of glaring weaknesses. Firstly, it is just as vulnerable to assault as all Tau units are, Secondly the high T value breeeds overconfidence in its controlled player (cite any player who has ever played Eldar and used Wraithlords prior to 6e) High toughness does not equate to invulnerability. Poisoned weapons will roll it off the table very effectively (a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls). Pskyers such as librarians can use force weapons to 1-hit it. Special wargear (black mace) can 1-hit it. The list goes on and on... worst case secnario, just tarpit the thing and watch it fumble all game long...

God, even post-Nova people are still posting tripe like this.

The number of Riptides in the winning lists versus the number of Helldrakes should tell you all you need to know; I said this when the Riptide first came out, and guess who was right?

Coldcast wrote:
I believe when he said pathfinders, he meant markerlights in general. A pathfinder team is a great way to support a Riptide just because of how makerlight hungry it is. (even if they're too squishy for tournament play).

I meant Pathfinders, not markerlights. They _are_ too squishy and an easy target. Why make it easy for your opponent?

Why do you assume Riptides only rely on markerlights when a buffmander gives it (them) much more use, e.g. twin-linking and ignore cover.

Perhaps some people should look into:

Force Weapons. GK have them. A lot.

Disruption weapons. Eldar have them. A lot.

Grav Weapons. pace Marines are gonna have them. A lot.

Meganobz. What Riptide? Get that big old transport up there 18" and git er done.

LasCannons. They have them. A lot.

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

With Heldrakes its just up hill to kill them. Sure, sometimes it happens quick. But then, sometimes totally hapless Warhammer players win too. So what? We all know Heldrakes are a serious wrecking back and scattering doesnt work AS well against them because of the torrent and teardrop angling.

Anyways, the battle rages on, butI think Heldrakes scare ME more.

 Jancoran wrote:

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

I love when people come up with this. Because when you face 2+ Riptides, everything is just sooo friggin' simple and straightforward: you can go wherever you want, do whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want. Yeah, you just place that 2 Riptides onto a table with 9 huge LoS blocking terrain in your deployment zone, you deploy your 2500 points of Riptide-killing awesomeness, Billy the autistic post-stroke victim takes command over the Tau and there you go! Every battle plays like this, right? I mean, it is not like your opponent can mitigate your abilities severely to kill the Riptides or - God forbids it! - plays smartly, dictates the game and forces you into playing a different game you want.

 Akaiyou wrote:
So I'm curious in a 2,000 points game for a NOVA tournament, which of these are considered more OP, a list bringing 2 heldrakes or one with 2 Riptides?


In my opinion the Heldrakes > Riptide.

Heldrake
Pros
1. Flyer
2. 5+ Invulnerable + It Will Not Die (on a friggin flyer)
3. S6 AP3 Torrent
4. Cheaper
5. Vector Strike

Cons
1. Might lose friends
2. 2+ Saves don't care for it

Riptide
Pros
1. Monstrous Creature
2. 5+ Invulnerable + Nova Charge
3. Ion Accelerator

Cons
1. Needs marketlight support
2. Poor in close combat
3. Higher Point Cost


That's my reasoning anyway, rip tides cost a lot of points to make best use of. While the Heldrake is cheaper and doesn't require any further upgrading or assistance from anything to make units evaporte.

So what about the rest of you? Do you consider 2 of either of these units to be 'too cheesy' for a NOVA tournament setting? How about for a standard pick up game? And which would you rank as more OP

Ah, but riptides are great for stomping nearby tanks due to Smash, due to it being a monstrous creature!

 Desubot wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Heldrakes make some people cry. Riptide make you cry too.

Heldrakes, without any assist, never miss. Without an assist, they ignore cover. They dont take WOUNDS in order to TRY and fire their weapons. Heldrakes regenerate the wounds they DO take. Heldrakes require armies to take SPECIAL and EXPENSIVE measures to counter them. Riptides don't.

So I just don't see how a Riptide could compete wit hthe self sufficient amount of awesome the Heldrake is.

Simple

a single shot, even from a quad gun, can take it out or severely incapacitate it. a Riptide, save a the instakill bullet off of a IA vanquisher, takes far far far more shots to remove.

You have at best, a one in three chance per S7 hit of doing anything, and a one in three chance for it to bounce off, and the thing pretty much ignores one third of the vehicle damage chart and regens away hull point stripping like a king.

Not exactly very good odds.

Thus far in my experience, Riptides are quite a bit easier to kill. Tough statline and all, but the Helldrake just has so much survivability built in. It has AV12, 5++, IWND, it shrugs crew stunned results, all on top of being a flier. It produces a gameplay dynamic all its own that is to say, a typical TAC list will not have the skyfire output to take down a pair of them with any regularity. Particularly in lists where skyfire units could also be firing on other targets, this poses the rather considerable problem that defending against Helldrakes may pull firepower away from other targets while also not easily getting rid of the fliers before they can do damage. The other two options are to ignore the fliers and try to keep troop units alive (not an easy task for most non-marine armies) or alter your lists to include more skyfire to stand a better chance of fending off the Helldrakes.

Helldrakes aren't becoming less reliable because of increased skyfire, there is increased skyfire because of units like the Helldrake. Out of all the flier-centric shenanigans in 6th edition, the Helldrake is the epitome of it.

I've been going over battle reports, every single Tau list I've found has had at least one Riptide. Almost every one is put down by the end of the game, even in cases where they are not being focused on right off the bat. Some to special attacks, (Jaws of the World Wolf, Soulrazor) some to outright firepower, most to assault (even being swept). Most of them do damage to themselves through gets hot and nova charge rolls, rolls which it has to risk in order to get the special weapon stats that make it stand out. And then on top of that it STILL has to be supported by a signature system (thus limiting the commander's own firing) or be provided markerlights to ignore cover. And THEN it STILL risks missing because it's BS is only 3, and it's attacks don't autohit. All of this adds up to a unit that is less survivable, less reliable, more expensive, and more likely to die before it's killed it's value in points.

While I've seen less examples of CSM lists, I have only found one today that lost it's Helldrake. And if you don't think it's not going to kill 170 pts worth of enemy, and that the guy on the other side of the table isn't going to change his tactical decisions because of it you're dead wrong. When you start losing Helldrakes to assaults and counter fliers every match, that's when I'll believe that Riptides are anywhere near as powerful.

The quad gun alone is T-totally useless against the helldrake. Missilesides can win the hull stripping war, but precious little else can. It's even a chore for the mighty Vendetta and the not-so-mighty Stormraven after you turn the math crank.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


God, even post-Nova people are still posting tripe like this.

The number of Riptides in the winning lists versus the number of Helldrakes should tell you all you need to know; I said this when the Riptide first came out, and guess who was right?

This is a why I don't understand how riptide defenders even think there is a case here.

I have real problems with the fast moving monstrous creatures. Both riptide and wraithknight (which has its own S6 Ap2 weapon).

Heldrakes are scary but they also have to make it on the board. They also have 10 rear armour. I have had my opponent deep strike and shoot it up the bum plenty of times.

I think the shock of how the meta changed because of the heldrake gives it a lot scarier rep. As other have pointed out... Its a vehicle still. What would be scary if it was a FMC!!!

My opinion is this: The Nova list that trounced through everybody had 4 Riptides, not Helldrakes. I was at Nova and as I walked around I didnt see that many Helldrakes and I only ended up fighting 1 during my 8 rounds. Now that marines are out they will see a bit more play but a Tau list really doesnt have to fear helldrakes while a helldrake list (cause lets face it, thats pretty much all the codex has going for it now) must fear a Tau list. It is a vehicle that can be 1 shot out of the sky while JotWW is about the only thing that can 1 shot a riptide.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
JotWW is about the only thing that can 1 shot a riptide.

My Beast Hunter shells say hello...

 Exergy wrote:

 En Excelsis wrote:
(a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls).

5 warrior in rapid fire range and the venom. 22 shots. average 15 hit, 7 wound, 1.2 wounds get past the armor save. So yes, if they roll decently, and by decent I mean 4 times better than average, can kill it in one round of shooting.

A single lascannon has a .11 chance to destroy or weapon destroy a drake. A single lascannon rolling 4 times better than average has a .55 chance. A single lascannon is a lot cheaper than 5 DE warriors in a double cannon venom and is availible to more armies.

in what logical world?

you still have to pay for that squad carrying the lascannon...

5 warriors and a venom is what? 100 points? not even?

Which is more OP is a little vague IMO.

Which unit is a better unit IMO? Riptides

Which unit would I'd rather not see in my opponent's list? Heldrakes

Every list I build has things that can deal with 2+ armor, and or monstrous creatures.

2-3 heldrakes with 5+ invuls and IWND over load most TACs lists anti air capacity to quickly deal with.

Wow. The poll is literally 50/50 with 188 voters. Thats impressive.

I think the c:sm book made the meta more friendly to helldrakes and less friendly to riptides.

Command squads with grave on bikes shred units with a 2+=less units with 2+ around=good news for drakes, bad news for riptides.

No divination except for 1 named um character=more motivation to add a rune priest+ grave weapons have concussion=I1 mc/riptides after taking 1 grav wound+ jaws=dead riptide/mc.

schadenfreude 554398 6095984 d93a0ac3d0443a53d1f36e6754119c28.pn wrote:
No divination except for 1 named um character=more motivation to add a rune priest+ grave weapons have concussion=I1 mc/riptides after taking 1 grav wound+ jaws=dead riptide/mc.

I agree. It will take a couple of months for the impact of grav to scare the gak out of all of the 2+ guys out there. I don't think it will be the end of riptides, but you will start seeing ethereal/kroot bubblewraps become more common.

I was saying heldrakes over riptides because of my personal experience, but honestly at 2k 2 of neither is close to OP.

 Jancoran wrote:
Perhaps some people should look into:

Force Weapons. GK have them. A lot.

Disruption weapons. Eldar have them. A lot.

Grav Weapons. pace Marines are gonna have them. A lot.

Meganobz. What Riptide? Get that big old transport up there 18" and git er done.

LasCannons. They have them. A lot.

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

With Heldrakes its just up hill to kill them. Sure, sometimes it happens quick. But then, sometimes totally hapless Warhammer players win too. So what? We all know Heldrakes are a serious wrecking back and scattering doesnt work AS well against them because of the torrent and teardrop angling.

Anyways, the battle rages on, butI think Heldrakes scare ME more.

Force Weapons: Can barely get close, expensive units make Riptide points back Far faster

Disruption: Hardly taken

Grav Weapons: On bikes yes, can do well.

Meganobz: Hahahaha that vehicle isn't getting anywhere near close, a SnP unit is gonna footslog against a riptide with JSJ?

Lascannons: Cover saves, JSJ, it's like you've never fought Tau before... Kinda shows.

There's also the fact that the Tau Army in general is better then CSM at this stage, without the Heldrake CSM would be very, very weak competitively.

Looks like Helldrake is now on the lead slightly these arguments just get better and better, i'm learning some things i never knew here lol

Also I completely agree the previous NOVA didn't have to deal with space marines in the way that they'll have to from now on at all tournaments. Grav weapons and even centurions in land raiders are sure to make that 4 riptide list obsolete, specially with how much better SM bikes have gotten now.

Where as skyfire is still expensive to field

 Akaiyou wrote:

Also I completely agree the previous NOVA didn't have to deal with space marines in the way that they'll have to from now on at all tournaments. Grav weapons and even centurions in land raiders are sure to make that 4 riptide list obsolete, specially with how much better SM bikes have gotten now.

The problem is that the competitive scene is going towards a very strict rock-paper-scissor setup: Riptide Spam beats Baledrake Spam, Baledrake Spam beats White Scar Grav Spam, and White Scar Grav Spam beats Riptide Spam. But the problem is with the lizard and Spock (eg: the other armies) - Riptide Spam and Baledrake Spam can beat them for good, but the White Scar Grav Spam... I dunno... It isn't exactly the linchpin of TAC builds, so to say.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Akaiyou wrote:

Also I completely agree the previous NOVA didn't have to deal with space marines in the way that they'll have to from now on at all tournaments. Grav weapons and even centurions in land raiders are sure to make that 4 riptide list obsolete, specially with how much better SM bikes have gotten now.

The problem is that the competitive scene is going towards a very strict rock-paper-scissor setup: Riptide Spam beats Baledrake Spam, Baledrake Spam beats White Scar Grav Spam, and White Scar Grav Spam beats Riptide Spam. But the problem is with the lizard and Spock (eg: the other armies) - Riptide Spam and Baledrake Spam can beat them for good, but the White Scar Grav Spam... I dunno... It isn't exactly the linchpin of TAC builds, so to say.

I lol'ed hard at the rock, paper, scissor, lizard, Spock.


BTW serpent spam would be Spock not lizard.

If your army gets RPSed by any of the main competitive armies... you don't have a competitive army.

Relying on good matchups to win a 5-7 game tournament is far from effective, especially now that more tournaments are using a win/loss rather than Battle Points dynamic.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Perhaps some people should look into:

Force Weapons. GK have them. A lot.

Disruption weapons. Eldar have them. A lot.

Grav Weapons. pace Marines are gonna have them. A lot.

Meganobz. What Riptide? Get that big old transport up there 18" and git er done.

LasCannons. They have them. A lot.

I mean, come on. Riptides are scary because the "shooting is the only way" people dont recognize how hobbled the Riptide is in combat. Its pathetic. Spread out and the Riptide can be somewhat mitigated. Kill the Pathfinders and cover is back on the menu.

With Heldrakes its just up hill to kill them. Sure, sometimes it happens quick. But then, sometimes totally hapless Warhammer players win too. So what? We all know Heldrakes are a serious wrecking back and scattering doesnt work AS well against them because of the torrent and teardrop angling.

Anyways, the battle rages on, butI think Heldrakes scare ME more.

Force Weapons: Can barely get close, expensive units make Riptide points back Far faster

Disruption: Hardly taken

Grav Weapons: On bikes yes, can do well.

Meganobz: Hahahaha that vehicle isn't getting anywhere near close, a SnP unit is gonna footslog against a riptide with JSJ?

Lascannons: Cover saves, JSJ, it's like you've never fought Tau before... Kinda shows.

There's also the fact that the Tau Army in general is better then CSM at this stage, without the Heldrake CSM would be very, very weak competitively.

Im an expert Tau general. I was in 4th, 5th an 6th. So I know Tau. Your arguments boil down to "good luck, itll never work". Sadly thats no argument.

Each of them has a diferent roll in the field.

helldrake got a chance to get popped off the sky with 1 shoot easier than a riptide and hes more limited to movement although he benefit from flyer but lose protection.

Riptide got wounds so wont die that easily, can die to instant death though, gain acess to cover easier but can get locked in combat to tie up which just that reason is bad enough, riptide tied up in combat is not good, just in some occasions is good to tie up, but very situational


I just admit the helldrake might come on the upper hand in 1 thing, taking off troops capturing stuff, with the exception of troop choice terminator squad... watever is the rest, its gonna get burned more efficiently than a riptide shooting at it. The riptide can shoot 20x as much as an helldrake, but gives way more chances for the targetting squad to get cover or line of sight blocked or watever. In that way the helldrake gets better showing up werever he wants to maximize his aproax and focus on burning 1 squad at a time with his torrent flaming option. Just for that the helldrake gets more competent to remove capturing objective threats.

And all this without taking 3rds to do their filthy job taking cover and such... which gives 1+ reason for the helldrake to be more competent attacking on capturing objective troops.

For taking on light armoured vehicles, heavier armoured foes or monsters with amount of gunfire power? riptide all day