Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Everybody who is saying that Heldrakes are extremely hard to kill (I think I read somebody call them "indestructable") clearly does not play with/against them, and just listens to internet "wisdom."
In my experience Heldrakes die almost every single game. Against Tau and Eldar, you might as well just give them the points.
Anybody who actually plays knows that 6s DO happen. Just because something has a 16.67% chance of occurring does not mean in any way that it will never happen.

16.7% change also increases in probability the more critical it is, it seems.

No idea how many times ive taken out a flier with my LAST remaining Loota because 1 out of 3 shots hit, penn'd, and i rolled a 6 and exploded it.

Like i said, for a vehicle the helldrake is very durable. Its still a vehicle and has that chance of utter failure lol

EDIT: Is it just me or is it sad that i have to say that? Vehicles shouldnt be easier to deal with than any other unit....lol...maybe the Explode! result should just cause a second hullpoint and Stunned, while still exploding if it ran out of HP this way.

Heldrakes murder troops, often with impunity, the general method of winning the game. The riptide is vulnerable to a lot more weapons than the helldrake as well. Poison in particular comes to mind. They are both really nasty pieces, but the helldrake just causes problems for me that Riptides don't.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
16.7% change also increases in probability the more critical it is, it seems.

No idea how many times ive taken out a flier with my LAST remaining Loota because 1 out of 3 shots hit, penn'd, and i rolled a 6 and exploded it.

Like i said, for a vehicle the helldrake is very durable. Its still a vehicle and has that chance of utter failure lol

EDIT: Is it just me or is it sad that i have to say that? Vehicles shouldnt be easier to deal with than any other unit....lol...maybe the Explode! result should just cause a second hullpoint and Stunned, while still exploding if it ran out of HP this way.

Lol, this is so true. I've gotten my heldrakes killed many times by the stray melta or plasma shot. It seems when you are counting on that one shot not to hit, it does. Then when you're crossing your fingers for anything but a 6, a big fat stars right back at you.

I think your idea for an extra hullpoint gone would actually be an amazing idea. However, I have to just sit here and pout at the state of vehicles.


Again, a Riptide is a MC with 2+ T6 5W. There is no easy way to kill one, barring JoWW. You say rely on ap2? You still need to get through that T6 and its invul, which could be a 3++ if your opponent sees it coming. Poison weapons? Going through 5 2+ saves is never easy, especially if you're close enough to deliver those shots.
The fact of the matter is, a riptide will not be in range of most of your army's shooting like a Heldrake will. A Riptide is more durable and OP in every way, no matter how you slice it.
In a vacuum, you can say there are a myriad of ways to kill a Riptide, but they really don't work in practice.

But I never feel desperation to kill a Riptide. A couple turns and two or three helldrakes can make it so you can't win.

Thats because it murders troops and barring bad Wound rolls it guarantees dead troops. Riptide can ignore cover and has the strength/AP to do it as well but it can scatter off, and the shape of the template skews a lot of results. Average Pi Plate hit against a player that spreads out is what 4-6 at best? Flamers usually get 6 minimum especially with the Torrent letting it get the perfect angle.

Riptide will never kill off all your troops unless you are balling them up like an idiot lol. Two or three MIGHT but you still have Gets Hot! bad luck or insane scatter results making a shot or two here and there not do anything at all...Helldrake doesnt have that issue.

As I said before, priorities, and figuring out where you can maneuver is most important... obviously no one will ever TRY to send a drake solely at a Riptide, that would be stupid.. But the extra wounds both provided by Vector Strike and 1 Wound by simply having the template skinny end, over a Riptide whenever possible as long as you are killing other stuff close to it, is NEVER a bad thing...

The riptide will still be a threat one year from now. The helldrake may or may not due to increasing skyfire. But the weapons a riptide can reliably drop at extreme range will always be a serious pain. Riptide all day.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The riptide will still be a threat one year from now. The helldrake may or may not due to increasing skyfire. But the weapons a riptide can reliably drop at extreme range will always be a serious pain. Riptide all day.

Very, very true. It has been less than a year and the Heldrake is probably only 60% as good now as it was when it first came out in my opinion. Skyfire is such an easy fix and no new codex will be without Skyfire options.

Somehow i doubt Orks would get a Skyfire option, since precise shooting is kinda out of the question with them.

I bet they'd get something like "Quickfire!" which is an S6 AP4 30" weapon thats Assault 2 normally, but against any model that has moved more than 6" they fire twice the shots but snap firing. Would be somethin like 40-60 shots being thrown so thats still going to be a lot of hits lol

The reason?

"Wild shootin' be da only way to shoot dem speedy gitz. See one? Dun aim, jus' SHOOT!"

I don't think either is overpowered necessarily.

They're both nasty units to deal with, each in their own way. Riptides need support, but Tau are like that.Chaos seem to be more about fielding tough units that can hold their own. A well supported riptide can blow the socks off just about anything with the same ease that a helldrake can. It doesn't have to leave itself vulnerable to take out high AV targets, getting to drop a S9 ordinance pieplate before a thrust move, compared to vector strike. While it is more vulnerable to more kinds of weapons, that has less to do with the survivability of the model than the type of model. Fliers are safe from most things that could whack a vehicle. So to toss out another pro / con list:

Riptide Pros
- Better use of cover
- Variety of hard hitting attacks to make it truly anti-everything
- Huge field presence (72" range, high BS and strips cover when supported)
- No doubling it out on Strength (T6)

Riptide Cons
- Vulnerable to the the usual anti-tank weapons
- Still has a chance of being damaged by lighter weapons (bolters can't do gak to AV12)
- Has a nasty habit of wounding itself (Equivalent of Gets Hot! 2 for it's nova charge)


Helldrake Pros
- Strong unit solo
- Variety of hard hitting attacks to make it truly anti-everything
- Remarkable toughness for a flier
- Incredible field presence and reach (range of possible hits from the flamer is huge)

Helldrake Cons
- Still a chance of it getting imploded
- Alot easier to hit with a well prepared army (3+ skyfire units that can damage it will be tough to avoid while still doing damage)
- Exposed to tank hunter (vehicle status lets units with tank hunter take it out quite a bit easier)

I'd still be more worried about dealing with a Helldrake. A guardsman squad might not have an easy time killing a riptide, but at least it has a chance. You run out of skyfire units with a helldrake over your head, you either just have to take the hits or snapshot your anti-tank weapons because anything lower than S7 probably isn't going to do gak.

Depends on the army I'm playing.

Riptides tend to cause a lot more problems for my Necrons, than Heldrakes.

Heldrakes cause a lot more problems for my Eldar, than Riptides do.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Helldrake cant even hurt a riptide....unless it happen to be in the arc for some reason

Helldrakes can fire in any direction. What arc?

This isn't a riptide vs helldrake death match. It's a study of which one has a greater game effect. The Tau have lots of other ways to shoot my face off. In fact, the Riptide has one of the lowest target priorities for me since it is such a pain to kill.

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Let me ask you: Can you field your army without a Riptide at all? Would you? Why not?

Because it just is so damned good, bordering OP with the synergies it can have.

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Let me ask you: Can you field your army without a Riptide at all? Would you? Why not?

Because it just is so damned good, bordering OP with the synergies it can have.

I definitely would (and indeed, have) field(ed) Tau armies without any Riptides. While the Riptide has great firepower, it really needs support from the rest of the Tau in order to be worth its points. Fundamentally speaking, if you end up shooting one BS3 pieplate per turn, that's really not a good use of 190+ points, especially given Gets Hot. Once the Riptide is supported by Pathfinders or other elements (allied Farseer or Tigurius rolling Divination powers, buff Commanders, etc.) it comes into its own, but I've found that without the right support Riptides become very expensive for what they give you.

Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

I hear vanguard w/melta bombs and power weapons in a DP are effective against riptides and basically anything else in or near the deployment zone



2 cents.

I used to worry about Helldrakes.

Then I got my new Eldar codex and I don't mind so much now. I played a game against 3 helldrakes, and my 4 wave serpents killed 1 per turn until none were left.

Yeah, the baleflamer is kinda nasty. But a heavy flamer is just as damaging to an army that is all T3 with 4+/5+ saves.

I had the same response when an opponent was all full of glee at charging a DP into a squad of guardians. "You realise your 300 point model will do exactly the same job as a squad of pretty much anything else, right?"


Riptides don't worry me too much either. They are only strong when they have support, and are wielded by a smart opponent. Get rid of the markerlights, and concentrate on the other shooting, and suddenly the Riptide isn't as scary.

Out of curiosity, what do the Eldar worry about? Maybe the new Tyranid codex? LOL

lol seems this little debate i started has heated up a lot, I honestly just wanted to know why anyone would feel that 2 riptides at 2000 poitns is soooooo super OP but not raise the same ruckus about seeing 2 heldrakes at 2,000 pts.

And i can't take factors like 'lucky explodes' results into consideration because by that same token i can drop pod a group of Ultramarines on a riptide with Tactical Doctrine activated and put enough shots on a riptide to kill it by mass of fire and it unluckily rolling all 1s.

I have had in 4th edition my 2+ save winged hive tyrant be killed by just 1 unit of fire warriors rapid firing at it, even though i was so sure that they were goners.

This is why i just can't see the riptide as this overwhelming threat that cant be taken out in a 2k game specially there only being 2 of them.

A heldrake you MUST be prepared for or you must rely on serious luck to deal with it before it eliminates all hope of winning from your end

 Kingsley wrote:
Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

Riptide is not dependant on Pathfinders, a tournament list rarely fields them. You will do fine with a buffmander and extras, creating a real monster of a unit.

Against all tournament evidence people give props to Heldrake over the Ripdide? They are both excellent units, but Riptide is way more versatile. Anything that has such staying power and starts on the board wins over a vehicle.

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

Riptide is not dependant on Pathfinders, a tournament list rarely fields them. You will do fine with a buffmander and extras, creating a real monster of a unit.

Buff commanders are a support element. They're usually more expensive than Pathfinders, too!

Naw wrote:
Against all tournament evidence people give props to Heldrake over the Ripdide? They are both excellent units, but Riptide is way more versatile. Anything that has such staying power and starts on the board wins over a vehicle.

I agree with this. I think Riptides are generally much better than Heldrakes. However, I think playing against Heldrakes can be much more frustrating than playing against Riptides. I don't consider either unit overpowered.

Riptides are great and get better the more you take. When you have 3-4 they are impossible to ignore.

Heldrakes are great but they get worse the more you take. 1 is a autotake in any CSM list but 3-4 isnt actually a good idea. They will kill off the few targets they can hurt and then do nothing for the rest of the game.

Exergy wrote:Riptides are great and get better the more you take. When you have 3-4 they are impossible to ignore.

Heldrakes are great but they get worse the more you take. 1 is a autotake in any CSM list but 3-4 isnt actually a good idea. They will kill off the few targets they can hurt and then do nothing for the rest of the game.

That's certainly true to take advantage of their survivability. If Riptides are 4 of the 8 big targets you're presenting, the enemy has to shoot at them within a few turns. It is not true for how well they do in shooting. Large templates will scatter off their targets completely on anything more than a 4. That means that on a standard scatter roll you have a 28% chance (7 or higher) of that S9 Ordinance pie plate doing feth all unless Riptides get some markerlight love. Every BS increasing markerlight it gets reduces the chance of it failing like that by 5.5%. All the sudden 4 Riptides are eating up 12 - 16 markerlights a turn, and it quickly becomes impossible to support them all. What problems Helldrakes have with difficulty with tough vehicles Riptides have with just missing if they're not supported. The baleflamer is nasty because it just goes wherever you put it. Only TEQ armor will get armor saves, nothing else gets cover saves.

In comparison to get that for a Riptide we have to overheat or nova charge (can be made a re-roll by spending points on upgrades or a support unit), Get line of sight within 6" movement, Get enough makerlights to make the shot fail-safe, and still have 2 more for ignores cover (6 - 7 makerlights). While that would give us a S8 pie plate or S9 ordinance pie plate, considering how it's pretty much impossible to feed ANY riptides that kind of markerlight support with any regularity, we get a harder hitting unit for something that has a decent chance of just missing all together.

Meanwhile CSM gets a unit that can autohit basically anything it wants within 27" of the model with ignores cover at S6, but can also Vector Strike during movement at S7 against side armor. Sure it might struggle to knock out tanks, but any other vehicle and any infantry that's not TEQ is easy pickings. Not to mention the difficulty factor in hitting a helldrake much less killing it while fighting against IWND every round. It's not impossible to kill, just a lot harder.

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't find Riptides to be as overwhelming a game presence as Heldrakes can be, though I think neither is overpowered. I would field two Riptides in 1000 points without feeling bad if I had the second model painted, much less in 2000 points.

Let me ask you: Can you field your army without a Riptide at all? Would you? Why not?

Because it just is so damned good, bordering OP with the synergies it can have.

Same as what Kingsley said before. Riptides are a huge point sink because of the necessary support to make them good at what they do. 2 Riptides at anything below 1500 pts is unreasonable, and while you COULD fit in 4 at 2000 or 2500 pts, you're less designing a unit you know will work and more relying on luck to make sure those riptides can actually hit what they need to. All at the expense of taking other units that while not as devastating against armor or T4 multiwound, are just as suited to taking out infantry or light vehicles AND don't need as many makerlights to do it.

The Riptide's weakness is it's statline as much as it is it's strength. The cost of support decreases it's viability at lower list levels, and the loss of those supports can severely reduce it's effectiveness at any list level. Other armies sometimes ignore a Riptide because you don't always need to kill it to keep it from being effective. So long as you have a single non-TEQ infantry on the board, or a vehicle with side armor less than 12, that is NOT something you can say about a Helldrake.

Kingsley wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Thus, in games where you don't have room for those support elements, in allied detachments, and so on I find that Riptides aren't as effective as one might expect from the Internet buzz.

Riptide is not dependant on Pathfinders, a tournament list rarely fields them. You will do fine with a buffmander and extras, creating a real monster of a unit.

Buff commanders are a support element. They're usually more expensive than Pathfinders, too!

Naw wrote:
Against all tournament evidence people give props to Heldrake over the Ripdide? They are both excellent units, but Riptide is way more versatile. Anything that has such staying power and starts on the board wins over a vehicle.

I agree with this. I think Riptides are generally much better than Heldrakes. However, I think playing against Heldrakes can be much more frustrating than playing against Riptides. I don't consider either unit overpowered.

I believe when he said pathfinders, he meant markerlights in general. A pathfinder team is a great way to support a Riptide just because of how makerlight hungry it is. (even if they're too squishy for tournament play)

That's probably the case. Riptides can just hurt more types of units with it's weapon choices. But over a vehicle? If the helldrake was on the ground I'd say yes. But considering how hard it is to hit a flier with anything over S7, AV12 and IWND is tough enough to ignore some skyfire and more often than not shrug off the rest. That dynamic only improves the more fliers you take. 3 skyfire units in an army might be able to punish one helldrake, but they'll get torn to shreds by 3, likely before they can take any of them down. It's all chanced based of course, so it'll happen from time to time that a helldrake gets crippled or wrecked by a lucky interceptor roll before it can do anything, but if I'm facing a quarter of a 2000 pt list in helldrakes, you pretty much have to be lucky to take them all down. And as I said before with Riptides, they're tough alright, but even a gaggle of conscripts with flashlights can wound them if they're lucky.

Coldcast wrote:

Exergy wrote:Riptides are great and get better the more you take. When you have 3-4 they are impossible to ignore.

Heldrakes are great but they get worse the more you take. 1 is a autotake in any CSM list but 3-4 isnt actually a good idea. They will kill off the few targets they can hurt and then do nothing for the rest of the game.

That's certainly true to take advantage of their survivability. If Riptides are 4 of the 8 big targets you're presenting, the enemy has to shoot at them within a few turns. It is not true for how well they do in shooting. Large templates will scatter off their targets completely on anything more than a 4. That means that on a standard scatter roll you have a 28% chance (7 or higher) of that S9 Ordinance pie plate doing feth all unless Riptides get some markerlight love. Every BS increasing markerlight it gets reduces the chance of it failing like that by 5.5%. All the sudden 4 Riptides are eating up 12 - 16 markerlights a turn, and it quickly becomes impossible to support them all. What problems Helldrakes have with difficulty with tough vehicles Riptides have with just missing if they're not supported. The baleflamer is nasty because it just goes wherever you put it. Only TEQ armor will get armor saves, nothing else gets cover saves.

In comparison to get that for a Riptide we have to overheat or nova charge (can be made a re-roll by spending points on upgrades or a support unit), Get line of sight within 6" movement, Get enough makerlights to make the shot fail-safe, and still have 2 more for ignores cover (6 - 7 makerlights). While that would give us a S8 pie plate or S9 ordinance pie plate, considering how it's pretty much impossible to feed ANY riptides that kind of markerlight support with any regularity, we get a harder hitting unit for something that has a decent chance of just missing all together.

Meanwhile CSM gets a unit that can autohit basically anything it wants within 27" of the model with ignores cover at S6, but can also Vector Strike during movement at S7 against side armor. Sure it might struggle to knock out tanks, but any other vehicle and any infantry that's not TEQ is easy pickings. Not to mention the difficulty factor in hitting a helldrake much less killing it while fighting against IWND every round. It's not impossible to kill, just a lot harder.

I said 1 drake is great, I think 1 drake is better than 1 riptide even.
The problem with the drake is you run out of targets so fast. Drakes are great at killing 3+ save expensive that like to sit in cover. They excel at it. After you kill the enemy devistators you start running out of things to shoot. While you can keep them on the table indefinitly it means limiting what you can shoot. Blasting cheat units that are spread out isnt super useful. You can almost never hit the thing you went for last turn.

yes 6s to hit is difficult, but there is skyfire. There is no skyfire that easily kills a riptide. ID is nice, but it is usually only give out in combat and riptides can avoid combat. There are things you can do to a dake, hit them in their rear armor 10 that they will be showing you in order to stay on the table VS and flaming you.

I think the reason it is so close is the fact it is highly dependent on your army.
I play sisters, no legit skyfire option but fortificatins or allies (dumb -$$ power gaming model selling crap) which i refuse to use.
I have faced both helldrakes and riptides in tournie settings. When facing tau riptides are about third on my target priority list vs chaos heldrakes are number one. They own my t3 power armoured ladies.

canadianguy wrote:
I think the reason it is so close is the fact it is highly dependent on your army.
I play sisters, no legit skyfire option but fortificatins or allies (dumb -$$ power gaming model selling crap) which i refuse to use.
I have faced both helldrakes and riptides in tournie settings. When facing tau riptides are about third on my target priority list vs chaos heldrakes are number one. They own my t3 power armoured ladies.

well that is the thing, Heldrakes have a very specific niche. They dont do much against 2+ saves or medium-heavy armoed tanks. They also arent good against a horde.

Riptides are good against anything that is expensive. Even horde guard will likely have a tank or two to blast, if not it is unlikely the guard will be able to "bring it down" before the end of the game if they have their target priority straight and thus the tide can go in and contest.

Helldrakes main advantage is that it is a flyer. It gains all the survivability that comes with that. The mechanics of the game limit all players' ability to remove the helldrake from the table, no amount of strategy or stkill can compensate for its poorly written rules. Fighting a helldrakes comes down to luck 90% of the time. You try to to make it the center of focus so it doesn't through your army into chaos, and when you can you shoot it... you either kill it outright (penetrating hit, roll for Eplodes or Wrecked), or it dominates.

The Riptide is no threat to a knowledagable player. It has a large pool of glaring weaknesses. Firstly, it is just as vulnerable to assault as all Tau units are, Secondly the high T value breeeds overconfidence in its controlled player (cite any player who has ever played Eldar and used Wraithlords prior to 6e) High toughness does not equate to invulnerability. Poisoned weapons will roll it off the table very effectively (a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls). Pskyers such as librarians can use force weapons to 1-hit it. Special wargear (black mace) can 1-hit it. The list goes on and on... worst case secnario, just tarpit the thing and watch it fumble all game long...

 En Excelsis wrote:

The Riptide is no threat to a knowledagable player. It has a large pool of glaring weaknesses. Firstly, it is just as vulnerable to assault as all Tau units are, Secondly the high T value breeeds overconfidence in its controlled player (cite any player who has ever played Eldar and used Wraithlords prior to 6e) High toughness does not equate to invulnerability. Poisoned weapons will roll it off the table very effectively (a DE Venom with a squad of kabalites can kill it in one round of shooting with decent - not great, decent - rolls). Pskyers such as librarians can use force weapons to 1-hit it. Special wargear (black mace) can 1-hit it. The list goes on and on... worst case secnario, just tarpit the thing and watch it fumble all game long...

Umm?

So you're saying nobody at NOVA was a knowledgeable player? Because Riptides were probably the single most prevalent unit at the tournament, including the person who won the whole event using 4?

That's probably not what he's saying. There are alot of factors that determine how well a unit will do, and it takes a very skilled player to win with anything. Helldrakes I consider a 'safe' choice, because even the things that can pierce AV12 AND have skyfire will struggle to kill it more often than not. If you have flier positioning down, it's very easy to protect your weak armor. Barring luck, or a heavy skyfire list (I mean like 5+ skyfire units in a 2000k match, THATS a shift in playstyle) not much can keep it from doing what it does. The flamer autohits, Vector Strike is S7 1D3 +1 hits which won't do gak to tanks but can annihilate anything else. Even in mech lists with 50% of their points sunk into tanks, you can really kill anything else with it. It's a very powerful unit.

There is nothing short of luck that anyone can do to a helldrake to make it any less powerful than it is. With skill of execution and planning, you don't have to kill a riptide to take some of it's bite away. I know that if I was in the endgame facing down against a tough unit, I'd be pretty uncomfortable betting the match on a weapon that's going to miss completely about a third of the time. It can't serve the distraction role as well as a helldrake can because there is a chance that anything can wound it, AND it's vulnerable to normal high strength and anti-tank weapons. But it does, and it's not because it's particularly good at it, it's because it's the best the tau have for it. Even if they go down they might buy a Tau player enough rounds of shooting to make up for the points. I'm just saying that if you had a riptide statline in another army, it wouldn't be used for that purpose.

Riptides are definitely powerful units, and they're fairly new so strong counter tactics aren't as flushed out as they probably could be. As for running four of them, that takes ALOT of skill to do it right. If you screw up positioning it's not only going to cost you 10% of your army, it'll take away one of your big guns and it'll lose a unit ALOT more easily than if your helldrake is in LOS of 4 snapfiring units instead of 3. If you can do it right, running 4 is probably an advantage because of their firepower, but it's a difficult tactic. The tradeoff between helldrake and riptide is that the helldrake can't kill as many kind of units, but gets to do it with incredibly high survivability. I think it's more specifically that survivability that makes it better.