hi guys, I rescently played a friendly match with my best frined (who collects tyranids, well ten turmagants at the moment) any way so he used my 'nids for the match. I was very much surprised when my six tactical terminators kept 2 lictors, three warriors, three stealers and a carnifex all held up for three turns, meaning all he had to claim objectives with were gaunts.
and it was awesome, but I did some thinking and the army I used had 26 models including a dread (which dyed turn 1) and he had 45, considering tyranids I know that's not much and the realisation soured my mood a bit. so I was wondering, ten terminators, with 1 heavy flamer, 1 assault cannon and two chainfists worth the points in a competitive match of say, 1000 points, or suited more for 1500+ games?

No, unfortunately, terminators are kinda garbage. Too many points for a W1 T4 model.

Being good against Tyranids doesn't mean being good. Tyranids lack the ranged AP 2 shooting to deal with Terminators outside of close combat. Also, how on Terra did you keep a Carnifex tied up for 3 turns without either the Terminators or Carnifex dying?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Being good against Tyranids doesn't mean being good. Tyranids lack the ranged AP 2 shooting to deal with Terminators outside of close combat. Also, how on Terra did you keep a Carnifex tied up for 3 turns without either the Terminators or Carnifex dying?

the terminators didn't dy because they are awesome, the carnifex because of four wounds and I was concentrating on lictors.

Martel732 wrote:
No, unfortunately, terminators are kinda garbage. Too many points for a W1 T4 model.

I wouldn't say they're garbage at all; 2+ armor and a 5++ or 3++ depending on loadout is pretty durable. Terminators are firmly in the "decent" category of units that will generally do pretty well, but in the right situation will get smashed or win the day. Against armies low on AP2 shooting like Orks and Tyranids they can often wreck house. Against Tau, Eldar, or, ironically, many Marine armies, they can have a lot of trouble. That said, my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights won my game against Eldar the other night, so I think they can still do well in most situations.

Proper application can mean a whole heck of a lot, too.

 Brother SRM wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, unfortunately, terminators are kinda garbage. Too many points for a W1 T4 model.

I wouldn't say they're garbage at all; 2+ armor and a 5++ or 3++ depending on loadout is pretty durable. Terminators are firmly in the "decent" category of units that will generally do pretty well, but in the right situation will get smashed or win the day. Against armies low on AP2 shooting like Orks and Tyranids they can often wreck house. Against Tau, Eldar, or, ironically, many Marine armies, they can have a lot of trouble. That said, my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights won my game against Eldar the other night, so I think they can still do well in most situations.

Terminators are just too luck reliant imo, a game with terminators goes something like either:
1. You roll average or worse, they die really fast and you lose
or
2. You roll really well and they are indestructable gods of war

 Jimsolo wrote:
Proper application can mean a whole heck of a lot, too.

Definitely.

Deep striking a good unit of terminators at your enemy's rearguard on one flank, whilst bringing to bear another unit on the opposing flank can cause devastation, as your opponent may be unsure how to react, and could devote too much power to one threat, and not enough to the other, or try to split his forces (which can be taken advantage of by a third threat).

I've done this with my CSM termes on one flank, a DP on the other, and keeping the front under pressure with two untis of PM's and a Helbrute.
Ik this is a chaos army I'm talking about here, but the theory still applies.

Terminators are just too luck reliant imo, a game with terminators goes something like either:
1. You roll average or worse, they die really fast and you lose
or
2. You roll really well and they are indestructable gods of war

Quote for truth...

Well, Termies are a unit the enemy has to deal with. Think about Mordrak or Belial and friends who can implement an alpha strike. Assault Termies w/ TH/SS who can deal with any unit out there in the 40k universe. Normal Termies are a bit harder to pull off. I'd use to them to march through the center. Every shot against them is one shot less against your troops.

If terminators were 10 points less per model, they'd be about right... or if they stayed the same and gained a wound. They just aren't worth it right now.

There a fine unit if used properly.

okay, how would you use them properly

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Termies are good if applied properly. The just don't have the durability. That being said Meganobz are excellent. Cheaper than Termies with 1 moar wound and S:10 on charge toss 'em in a battle wagon and hurl 'em at the enemy and you'll do great! That's how I with Tau. But Termies are easily shot up by most armies before they can even move. If applied correctly they can do well but it's a heckuva risk.

Terminatord have on me more games than I care to think about, but they do need to be used correctly. They alos need the correct loadout for the foe they are facing,
Seeing how I play both Grey knigths and DA I have had games decided pretty fast by a unit or two of Terminators comming on the flanks or straigth down amongst the enemy heavy guns and rip them appart

It would also depend on your meta.

In my local, the only person who uses Termies always does well with them, but we don't have a lot of AP2 between us, since the 2 guard players moved on (EDIT: as in one switched to magic temporarily, the other stopped playing 40k altogether AFAIK, nobody died)

Please terminator supporters, please tell me the "proper way" to use these things. They are like a unit teleported straight out of the BA codex: overscosted.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Termies are good if applied properly. The just don't have the durability. That being said Meganobz are excellent. Cheaper than Termies with 1 moar wound and S:10 on charge toss 'em in a battle wagon and hurl 'em at the enemy and you'll do great! That's how I with Tau. But Termies are easily shot up by most armies before they can even move. If applied correctly they can do well but it's a heckuva risk.

Furious charge bonus doesn't multiply with power fists, so they're S9 on the charge.

Still pretty decent though.

Terminators on the other hand are not particularly competitive, but they're not garbage either. They're average, and if they were a few points cheaper they might even be good.

From a DW perspective I think terminators are great. They must stick together. On their own they get taken out pretty quickly. The FnP banner isn't too bad either. Just 2 saved wounds pays for it, and when it saves a third of my wounds when I only have 30 on the table you really start to see how dependent DA is on banners to be competitive.

CSM Termis can be useful when deep striking with combi-meltas or -flamers. You can drop a tank or put some hurt on a horde unit early on in a game.

They are costly, and will die if parked in front of massed fire or AP2 so as Jimsolo said, correct application is important. They go together well with Land Raiders, but your army has to be the sort of build that complements putting a lot of points in two units- which isn't necessarily ideal for everyone.

In short: They can be competitive, they just need to fit the army they're in and be used well.

Martel732 wrote:
Please terminator supporters, please tell me the "proper way" to use these things

Spam them. If you put 30 terminators on the board, it will take 180 non-AP2 wounds to kill them all. For BS4 bolters, that's 540 shots (=90 shots per turn in a 6-turn game). Terminators are good enough in close combat to be able to do stuff when they get there, so that should be your goal. Deepstrike is the best way, but Land Raiders can do good work too. Combat squad them. I've actually been shocked at how well footslogging terminators can do if your opponent lacks AP2 or mobility.

Obviously, they probably aren't the best choice against Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau. And if they aren't scoring, they really aren't worth spamming. However, it's a fun list to play and against a basic "take-all-comers" list from other codexes it will do ok.

If you don't spam them, a 5-man squad can be a distraction or buff up part of your line. Just don't deepstrike a single squad into your opponent's deployment zone turn 2 and expect them to live - 200 points can't beat 2000.

I just scare the gak out of people with two landraiders with 4++ (DA techmarine with pfg and bike) and IWND and 11 suits of TDA (librarian) with 6+ FnP. Fun fun fun.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Just don't deepstrike - into your opponent's deployment zone turn 2 and expect them to live - 200 points can't beat 2000.

How about 1260?

I occasionally bring 3 squads of 3 to the table (CSM) and deepstrike them in with combi-weapons. Basic Terminators are enough of a beatstick to cause havoc when they don't have specific combat weaponry. So the opponent has the choice of either gunning the terminators down and not firing at anything else, or shooting everything else and ending up with terminators up his backside.

I find that correct application isn't really the key to Terminators anymore, it is the opponents skill level. A good opponent won't worry about Terminators but an inexperienced one will lose to them due to not understanding how to properly counter the threats they present.

Edit: Spacing and grammar

Generally, I find all terminator lists aren't very competitive. Especially against armies that live in their transports, or have a lot of ap 1 and 2 weapons.

If your friend had been playing IG, you won't have stood a chance.

Regular termis are lackluster.

GK termis or deathwing however, are a league better.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Please terminator supporters, please tell me the "proper way" to use these things

Spam them. If you put 30 terminators on the board, it will take 180 non-AP2 wounds to kill them all. For BS4 bolters, that's 540 shots (=90 shots per turn in a 6-turn game). Terminators are good enough in close combat to be able to do stuff when they get there, so that should be your goal. Deepstrike is the best way, but Land Raiders can do good work too. Combat squad them. I've actually been shocked at how well footslogging terminators can do if your opponent lacks AP2 or mobility.

Obviously, they probably aren't the best choice against Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau. And if they aren't scoring, they really aren't worth spamming. However, it's a fun list to play and against a basic "take-all-comers" list from other codexes it will do ok.

If you don't spam them, a 5-man squad can be a distraction or buff up part of your line. Just don't deepstrike a single squad into your opponent's deployment zone turn 2 and expect them to live - 200 points can't beat 2000.

Fortunately, even my lowly BA have plenty of AP 2 shooting. And my Iron Hands bikers LOL at your terminators. Grav guns conveniently shoot them outside their assault range. And I laugh at your stormbolters and assault cannons or whatever. I guess there's one thing the BA still have its mobility. You'll never catch me

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

raiden wrote:okay, how would you use them properly

Using them for both Shooting and CC comes to mind.

BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies, specifically due to the threat bubble they produce. GK TDA can dominate an entire quarter of the board, or deny the center, displacing mobile forces, and allowing for bottlenecks to occur. Terrain is the bane of mobile armies that need to breach a threat bubble to be effective. In short, maneuver all you want, but if you want line of sight, you have to fight me piecemeal.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

BA vindicators have a threat range of "36" [y'know about 3/4 of a 2x2 board]

After experiencing the Tau and Eldar, I really don't give a feth about GK. They have largely imperial weapons, bring em on. GK are not tabling me in 3 turns like Eldar.

I don't need vindicators to gun down GK terminators. Fast Las/plas razors, grav bikers, and dakka Baals work fine.

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

BA vindicators have a threat range of "36" [y'know about 3/4 of a 2x2 board]

What's your point level for a 2x2 board? 500pts?

SJ

What are you even talking about Jeffersonian000? BA terminators have a threat range of 30 inches (6 inch walk + 24 inch range storm bolters and psy cannons). All people are saying is that Blood Angel Vindicators have a threat range of 36 inches (12 inch move + 24 inch Vindicator Shot). a 2v2 Board has nothing to do with anything the fact that a Vindicator can shoot first. Its pretty obvious he meant to say 4x4 (which is typically played at 500-1000 points), and coincidentally 36 inches is exactly half 3/4 of a 4 feet)

Also this whole nuh uh, I've got a plan and will kill all vehicles by turn 2 is crazy talk, and why this "well I've got this unit therefore I would totally beat you" is very out of place in these forums.

Overall yes though, GK is and has always been a very tough match up for BA, but they have always been like that, seeing as they outshoot BA and out assault BA with their army wide force weapons. But its not an unwinnable match up, and units like the Fast BA Vindicator help them.

Anyway I don't think I've ever been impressed with generic Tactical Terminators. I use a small block in my Chaos as a combi melta drop bomb, but larger blocks always seem to underperform for their costs. THSS termies were pretty decent in 5th edition, but have gotten a bit worse in 6th.

I really want to use shooty terminators myself in my UM list. I want to use them as a threat as well as having some ranged threat. Whenever I run TH SS termies they get shot to pieces, usually from weight of fire over AP2 weapons. So i have determined regardless of configuration their chances of survival are the same.Their primary purpose is to act as a bullet sponge and to distract my opponent. As such, i believe that arming them with ranged weapons will allow some chance to do some damage before they are snuffed out. Now the only thing i cannot determine is which weapon to use. Im torn between the extra shots of the Assault Cannon or the AP 3 and range of the cyclone missile.

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

I like the new Vanguards better than terminators. Maybe I've lost my mind, but I think their superior mobility and ability to disorder charge at full strength is nice. And they can put cheap storm shields in the front of the squad.

I also like Sternguards better than terminators, since their special ammo is more flexible than anything terminators can be armed with.

I think ironclad dreads are also better than terminators. AV 13 is pretty sweet in a lot of circumstances and dual heavy flamer delivered via drop pod can be super mean.

LotD too then right?

I want to like terminators, I've had them do well in games (too well, statistically)... but proper application of ap2 makes them squish, and they're too expensive to get squished.

LotD is definitively an awesome unit infinitely better than termies

Oh yeah, ignore cover tech plus invulnerable 3++ = win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If terminators could get more heavies in their squads, they might become more worth it. But rather than doing that, GW made termi-tubbies.

termies need 2 wounds a piece and the option to have an assault cannon each (at the regular price ofc.)

Maybe three assault cannons so they could pretend to be as cool as war walkers. They still wouldn't have the range, but it would be a thing. The fact that their power fists are basically useless in the current meta is really warping their pricing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When GW made even a 2+ save a joke, they really messed with how this game plays out.

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

You forgot Deathmarks with their S8 Ap1 rending flame template buddy.

IonPie, Ghetto Rending, Gravy Guns, Plasma being the new black thanks to glancing being deadly... Yea, this current meta is not for terminators. This is coming from a guy bringing a Draigowing to a GT for the lulz. I face one White Scars biker army and I'll lose all my Dreadknights and my Paladins probably first, if not second turn unless I roll 5++ like the Emprah's Chosen. (Hint: I don't)

Terminators are garbage. Bring back their re-rollable 2+ armor save and you might have a usable unit. That'd be equal to the Screamerstar and Seer Council bull crap.

on another note, for tau, are stealth suits worth it??

 raiden wrote:
on another note, for tau, are stealth suits worth it??

I think they can be, but you gotta use them as chaff can sometimes be awesome.

 raiden wrote:
on another note, for tau, are stealth suits worth it??

Not really, (its why I bolded them for emphasis), all they do is bring S5 AP5 to the table, which is more efficiently done by Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits.

Before the new dex.. my friend was using DA Termies reguarly.. I respect them a bunch..

A bunch of boyz anyways.. Dice gods hate termies.. sure taking a few shots from some poor source of dakka is ok with mixed results.. 20 wounds from 30 orks? yeah ok roll 1's have fun.

My friend hates that his termies get 1W and my nobz of all flavor (and bikes) get 2W. Seem to make a major difference.. Honestly I think they biggest trend that could happen for termies is a reroll on failed saves at a reduced chance. (or FnP?)

As I said, termies need 2 wounds.

they need a bump to their invuln and +1 toughness. that way cheap P-Axe spam and rending spam wouldn't screw them so badly.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
hi guys, I rescently played a friendly match with my best frined (who collects tyranids, well ten turmagants at the moment) any way so he used my 'nids for the match. I was very much surprised when my six tactical terminators kept 2 lictors, three warriors, three stealers and a carnifex all held up for three turns, meaning all he had to claim objectives with were gaunts.
and it was awesome, but I did some thinking and the army I used had 26 models including a dread (which dyed turn 1) and he had 45, considering tyranids I know that's not much and the realisation soured my mood a bit. so I was wondering, ten terminators, with 1 heavy flamer, 1 assault cannon and two chainfists worth the points in a competitive match of say, 1000 points, or suited more for 1500+ games?

10 man terminator squads are way too many points in a single unit in 1000 point game...heck even 2 units of 5 terminators each is pretty pricey for a 1000 point game and unless playing Dark Angels deathwing that focuses on termies I'm not sure I'd even do it in a 1500 point game. Against 'nids that isn't too bad. Against just about any other army out there you will be shot to pieces from afar before they even get into combat directly. Sure it is sometimes cool to play the outnumbered force holding out to the last man, but if you make this a normal tactic that will be every game for you are lower point levels.

Skriker

Martel732 wrote:

When GW made even a 2+ save a joke, they really messed with how this game plays out.

And people complain about things with armor worse than this? Not normally...

Well, you have to realize the whole "2+ armor save a joke" thing kinda had to be that way. The cost of most models with a 2+ armor save is low enough where you can easily spam the crap out of them, if AP1 or 2 weapons outside of combat were so rare that the typical army might have 2-3 of them (none being a pi plate, or MAYBE one being a pi plate for some armies like Tau) then termies would rock the game. Weight of fire is still luck, ive had games where ive pumped 60+ shots at a single termie and it didnt die. If that was the norm for dealing with it, a couple 8-10man squads of termies would win every time with almost no challenge.

Though i have to admit its a little easy to get AP2 even still. I think they went a little overboard with it lol. Not by much mind you.

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

Care to explain what makes these units better than 'nators? [considering that they are all inferior ]

Kinda curious myself as to why he had stealth suits in that list, among others. Stealth suits are purely a thorn in the side that has the potential to snipe a vehicle but mainly just throw a gakton of shots out to be annoying while hiding in 2+ cover. 2+ cover is pretty easy to avoid these days, and most of the guns that do it (except flamer/heavy flamer/SMS/some bombs) also pen 3+ armor anyway and they have no invul to fall back on. Theyre also damn near 300pts to use, and thats not fully kitted out either lol

I love sw terminators. Yeah the th/ss version is way to expensive, but the base guy is dirt cheap. Also you can fill up the 10 man squad to get double heavies with pawg at a significant savings. Their ability to take combination weapons makes them very effective drop podders. Logan to make them scoring and you get a very effective unit that needs to be dealt with.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well, you have to realize the whole "2+ armor save a joke" thing kinda had to be that way. The cost of most models with a 2+ armor save is low enough where you can easily spam the crap out of them, if AP1 or 2 weapons outside of combat were so rare that the typical army might have 2-3 of them (none being a pi plate, or MAYBE one being a pi plate for some armies like Tau) then termies would rock the game. Weight of fire is still luck, ive had games where ive pumped 60+ shots at a single termie and it didnt die. If that was the norm for dealing with it, a couple 8-10man squads of termies would win every time with almost no challenge.

Though i have to admit its a little easy to get AP2 even still. I think they went a little overboard with it lol. Not by much mind you.

I disagree. They are extremely expensive which is why nobody uses them anymore. 5 at the most. Why would you use your one outlier of a terminator tanking 60 shots as an argument? That would be like me saying everything that rolls a 1 dies, ergo, all things die in 1 hit. Just roll a die until you see a 1. It doesn't take very much at all. Mathematically, 6 wounds will kill a terminator.

I disagree. 40 points is not cheap, in any way/shape/form. 'specialy not for a one wound t4 model.

 Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Only if the Necrons are DespiTek Deathmarks.

2+ saves are not bad, they're amazing. 2+ saves for heaps of points on a low Toughness 1 wound model are bad.

Vineheart01 wrote:Well, you have to realize the whole "2+ armor save a joke" thing kinda had to be that way. The cost of most models with a 2+ armor save is low enough where you can easily spam the crap out of them, if AP1 or 2 weapons outside of combat were so rare that the typical army might have 2-3 of them (none being a pi plate, or MAYBE one being a pi plate for some armies like Tau) then termies would rock the game. Weight of fire is still luck, ive had games where ive pumped 60+ shots at a single termie and it didnt die. If that was the norm for dealing with it, a couple 8-10man squads of termies would win every time with almost no challenge.

Though i have to admit its a little easy to get AP2 even still. I think they went a little overboard with it lol. Not by much mind you.

Errr what?
The cheapest 2+ armour in the game is a chaos terminator at 35?ish points, perhaps you are confused with 2+ Cover?

sing your life wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits In terms of targets they can be equipped nothing except maybe sternguard come close to the variety of targets they can engage and but they are slightly more efficient
Riptides nuff said
Stealth Suits high quantity anti-infantry on a fairly cost efficient and durable frame
Triarch Stalkers they are scatter lasers to the rest of your army
C'Tan shard reasonably costed and flexible MC in MChammer 40k
Wraithguard/Blades Terminators that are superior in virtually every way
Fire Dragons best anti tank in the group
BloodcrushersCavalry with power weapons

I can keep going if you want.

Care to explain what makes these units better than 'nators? [considering that they are all inferior ]

actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

Sigh, tau just had to be braught uP, honestly, I don't give a feth About other armies better qualities, unless you're telling me a way to use terminators in a battle, or giving a LEGITAMITE reason why they shouldn't be used, I don't want to here it

Yeah, but no invulnerable save. The only thing that keeps Mephiston on the field is his T6 and 5 wounds. Ork MegaNobs run into the same problem, only they are 40 points each. Having no inv save really makes the amount of AP2 and rending being thrown around really noticeable.

TDA Wolf Guard are 33 points and come with a stormbolter, power weapon (sword, axe, maul)

Chaos Terminators are 31 points and come with combibolter and power weapon (sword, axe, maul)

Both can play the mix and match weapons game and take various upgrades to make them customizable as needed. Because of this can actually fill many rolls instead of being shoe-horned into one roll like C:SM termies.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Because of this can actually fill many rolls instead of being shoe-horned into one roll like C:SM termies.

It is sad cuz it is true.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
I disagree. 40 points is not cheap, in any way/shape/form. 'specialy not for a one wound t4 model.

40 points for a single terminator, eh?

Yet another reason to worship chaos, then. We get ours at a base cost of 31 pts each (admittedly they only come with a normal power weapon, not a powerfist, but the powerfist is only 7 ppm, bringing them up to 38 pts each).

Small savings, but important ones nonetheless.

Also they start off as a 3-man unit

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Sigh, tau just had to be braught uP, honestly, I don't give a feth About other armies better qualities, unless you're telling me a way to use terminators in a battle, or giving a LEGITAMITE reason why they shouldn't be used, I don't want to here it

Wait... so "I'll ignore reasons I don't like, but give me more reasons" I dub thee trollkin

Lets compare shooty Termies to Sternguard, Bikes, and Honour Guard... three units in the same codex, I'll give everyone statistically average rolls

Sternguard at same points in a shooting match (and I'll let the termies shoot first)... kill all the termies and 5 sternguard walk away.
In a fight at 18" with an assault for the termies after shooting (each side gets one round of fire).... all the termies die and 3 sternguard walk away

Plus the sternguard are way more versatile and can become scoring and carry some serious firepower


Honour Guard? No invuln, so termies win? Right? Lets run the numbers... at same points, 5 shooty terminators against 8 HG (half PA, half PS... not even optimized to slaying termies)

HG charge? all termies die, 5 honour guard walk away...if they got to shoot before charging, 6 might walk away
Termies get the charge? 3 honour guard walk away

Assault termies do a little better (both wipe each other out if the termies are all TH/SS)... but if I optimize the HG with all PA, 3 HG walk away

Plus, Honour guard don't take up a slot, can come in via DS turn 1, and can sweep


Bikes is just supper sad. A bike command squad or 200 point standard bike squad shoots termies and kills them in 1 turn for the CS and 2 turns at worst for the standard squad

Bikes are more mobile, have a cover save as good as the invuln, pack way more punch, can sweep, and in White Scar or Raven Guard, are a hand full for your enemy


Only dreadnoughts are as big of a waste of points in the codex as the termies. They are literally in the running with vanguards and assault marines for the worst unit in the dex, and I think they win on their own lack of merits. If you wanted to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "NO! they're still good"... why post on a forum?

 raiden wrote:
actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

That's actually pretty reasonable price, I'm guessing WS5 and A2 on top as well?

 Lobukia wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Sigh, tau just had to be braught uP, honestly, I don't give a feth About other armies better qualities, unless you're telling me a way to use terminators in a battle, or giving a LEGITAMITE reason why they shouldn't be used, I don't want to here it

Wait... so "I'll ignore reasons I don't like, but give me more reasons" I dub thee trollkin

Lets compare shooty Termies to Sternguard, Bikes, and Honour Guard... three units in the same codex, I'll give everyone statistically average rolls

Sternguard at same points in a shooting match (and I'll let the termies shoot first)... kill all the termies and 5 sternguard walk away.
In a fight at 18" with an assault for the termies after shooting (each side gets one round of fire).... all the termies die and 3 sternguard walk away

Plus the sternguard are way more versatile and can become scoring and carry some serious firepower


Honour Guard? No invuln, so termies win? Right? Lets run the numbers... at same points, 5 shooty terminators against 8 HG (half PA, half PS... not even optimized to slaying termies)

HG charge? all termies die, 5 honour guard walk away...if they got to shoot before charging, 6 might walk away
Termies get the charge? 3 honour guard walk away

Assault termies do a little better (both wipe each other out if the termies are all TH/SS)... but if I optimize the HG with all PA, 3 HG walk away

Plus, Honour guard don't take up a slot, can come in via DS turn 1, and can sweep


Bikes is just supper sad. A bike command squad or 200 point standard bike squad shoots termies and kills them in 1 turn for the CS and 2 turns at worst for the standard squad

Bikes are more mobile, have a cover save as good as the invuln, pack way more punch, can sweep, and in White Scar or Raven Guard, are a hand full for your enemy


Only dreadnoughts are as big of a waste of points in the codex as the termies. They are literally in the running with vanguards and assault marines for the worst unit in the dex, and I think they win on their own lack of merits. If you wanted to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "NO! they're still good"... why post on a forum?

I gottaget me some sternguard

 Krellnus wrote:

 raiden wrote:
actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

That's actually pretty reasonable price, I'm guessing WS5 and A2 on top as well?

WS4 (should be 5), but that's offset with A2 +1 off hand +1 banner, so base 4, 5 on charge and get PW and 2+ in the deal. I put Tigurius with them and drop Invisibility or Prescience on them as needed. Champ is +1 A +1 WS, but is just a challenge buffer for the HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to Termies. They need a second wound at same cost. Then they'd be worth it.

 sing your life wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

Care to explain what makes these units better than 'nators? [considering that they are all inferior ]

I dunno about you, but Crisis Suits and Riptides are far better than Terminators, and arguably, Wraith units are more resilient and pack more of a punch. Fire warriors definitely hit harder too.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 raiden wrote:
actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

That's actually pretty reasonable price, I'm guessing WS5 and A2 on top as well?

WS4 (should be 5), but that's offset with A2 +1 off hand +1 banner, so base 4, 5 on charge and get PW and 2+ in the deal. I put Tigurius with them and drop Invisibility or Prescience on them as needed. Champ is +1 A +1 WS, but is just a challenge buffer for the HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to Termies. They need a second wound at same cost. Then they'd be worth it.

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

 Krellnus wrote:

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

Yep, bolters and grenades come with it all too.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

Yep, bolters and grenades come with it all too.

Damn, that's nice, if they can take drop pods, if you play the super chapter master, take like 7 in a pod, maybe join a chaplain or similar and use them to shore up your first wave.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

Yep, bolters and grenades come with it all too.

Damn, that's nice, if they can take drop pods, if you play the super chapter master, take like 7 in a pod, maybe join a chaplain or similar and use them to shore up your first wave.

You just described 1 of my 3 "go to" opening moves. Tigurius a CM and 8 HG in alpha drop. It's brutal and just laughs at Heldrakes and their ilk.

The reason why is because they die easily to AP 2 weapons, bolters, pie plate and they are a fire magnet.
Let me put it this way. A terminator will die just as easily to a Plasma shot as a regular marine, which is cheaper and serves a function.
Lets say with my regular firwarriors, Im putting alot of wounds on you. A 1 will be rolled. And most(Not all though) Large plats are ap2.

Termies still have 5+ invuln.

Just thought I'd put in a word here about 3+ saves in 6th ed.

...

Heldrakes.

I shall leave it there.

I ran Terminator heavy with my Grey Knights and I never found myself wishing I'd spent my point on another unit. They hold the line, match most CC armies blow for blow, and end up having a decent set of heavy weapons.

That being said, codex Terminators are sort of meh in comparison to their more specialized brethren. Assault terminators are a really scary thing, even in the Shootinghammer of 6th ed. Granted you don't see many terminators in competitive lists, but that doesn't mean they can't be used.

It's generally a YMMV sort of situation. Some people swear by some of the supposed 'worst' units in their codex's, but for whatever reason, those units work for that player.

 Frankenberry wrote:

It's generally a YMMV sort of situation. Some people swear by some of the supposed 'worst' units in their codex's, but for whatever reason, those units work for that player.

Often it's the fact that when a unit is considered unuseable, everyone stops building against it, as they don't think anyone will bring it.
Then, when they do meet it, they can get really screwed over.

But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:
perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

YES! QFT!

I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

BA vindicators have a threat range of "36" [y'know about 3/4 of a 2x2 board]

Can we just agree that you both sound like terrible players?

That was unnecessary.

I still find terminators very useful if used correctly.

You can't just drop them in front of an entire army and hope they survive, but rather drop them in a critical position, such as killing the squad that is camping on the back field objective, taking out those pesky dark reapers.

They are tanky enough that your opponent needs to divert a decent portion of force to deal with them because having terminators running around in your backfield unopposed is really bad

 Very Superstitious wrote:
I still find terminators very useful if used correctly.

You can't just drop them in front of an entire army and hope they survive, but rather drop them in a critical position, such as killing the squad that is camping on the back field objective, taking out those pesky dark reapers.

They are tanky enough that your opponent needs to divert a decent portion of force to deal with them because having terminators running around in your backfield unopposed is really bad

This.

It also doesn't help your opponent that they tend to be able to eat tanks when they're properly kitted out.

how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?

Zero? They already pay for powerfists.

 IHateNids wrote:
how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?

one or two. they tend to do better than meltabombs on tac sergeants anyway XD.

I'll bet XD

 IHateNids wrote:
how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?

You really don't need any since everything is resolved against rear armour. Only exception being the Land Raider of course.

And monoliths.

You still need a 4+ against drop pods and not everything has a 10 rear armor. However, you have to fight walkers on their front facings, so having at least one chainfist is a usually not a bad idea. Its pretty good insurance even if its on a just in case situation.

I run one chain fist and Arjac. (I play SW). I find my termies don't fear crashing into anything.

That's a good point. I'd have one chainfist for those contingencies. I've used shooty BA terminators with a heavy flamer and beamed them in with a teleport homer. It's not the best thing, but a no scatter heavy flamer is pretty nice.

Good points you guys brought up

I'm the only person I play with that has 14 AV boxes and walkers, so i tend to forget stuff like that.

Furioso dreads! They are still something worth taking in the BA book.

I was always jealous of those.

They're not worth it. The BA codex blows. Looking at it now, it wasn't even that amazing when it was new. It was magnificent at beating up non-Ork 4th edition codices, but was very quickly eclipsed by GK and Necrons.

Terminators need to be at least 5 points cheaper then they are now. As it stands now, they are far too expensive.

At least 5. It's hard to justify that much of a premium on 2+ when the Eldar roll out of bed and smoke 2+ saves. Hell, my BA don't really fear terminators, and that's pretty damning.

Martel732 wrote:But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

Who would hate Tyranids so much that they'd implement either of those rules? Apart from whoever it is that writes the Tyranid FAQs, that is.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Martel732 wrote:But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

Who would hate Tyranids so much that they'd implement either of those rules? Apart from whoever it is that writes the Tyranid FAQs, that is.

Matt Ward; they smashed up Ultramar once

The problem with terminators is that they are a below average shooting unit and an above average assault unit in an edition that makes shooting the absolute king. Or you can use terminator assault squads and get excellent CC, but you don't ever need that for anything.

Land raiders are easy to kill or cripple and without them then your terminators can't get into assault range. Their assault range is limited to strictly 13-18" (even worse if you have difficult ground) as opposed to 16-21" (or a straight 21" with no terrain in the way). You may not even get to assault until turn 3 if your opponent throws a useless unit in the way, as opposed to being able shoot for two full turns with a shooting unit.

Personally I don't see terminators in any of my friends competitive lists anymore. They're just so inferior to shooting units. What's better, a terminator assault squad on turn 3 assaulting or another unit shooting for 3 turns prior? Remember, shooting doesn't need to roll for random range and you can't shoot back at them in the same turn unlike in CC.

IMO they're very subpar now. 6th is a shooting game and maybe terminators are okay for counter assault but even then, eh.. You can counter assault with more shooting :p

Also, as Martel says.. BA is awful and dreadnoughts are incredibly easy to kill.. no need for chainfists, just do 3 glances and poof.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Martel732 wrote:But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

Who would hate Tyranids so much that they'd implement either of those rules? Apart from whoever it is that writes the Tyranid FAQs, that is.

I personally would adjust Tyranid AP along with such a rule. Don't forget that with this system, bolters are in the same boat against 2+. I think it fits the fluff much better.

I'd be interested to see what's considered a competive SM army list using the new codex. Any examples to share? Say 1500 to 2000 points.

FreeportPirate wrote:
I'd be interested to see what's considered a competive SM army list using the new codex. Any examples to share? Say 1500 to 2000 points.

We have hundreds in the army list section. I'd head there

Marines are indeed much better, but it's a bit annoying that a big part of the game is putting in enough bodies to suck up all the Tau/Eldar fire. It's like playing Orks with 14 pt boyz.

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Riptides?

Sternguard, as well. They are demonstrably better for their cost.

6 Assault Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader hurts whatever it hits - support it properly and it is devastating, leave them on their own they die - simples

My opinion on terminators (or more specifically termie armour) is that they are only worth taking as line support troops in a land raider, preferably a crusader or a redeemer (I would lean towards crusader for vanilla termies, redeemer for assault) not as deep striking troops, unless you are fielding some kind of teleport homer or locator beacon to accurately position your unit. I would never take a full 10 man unit at 1000 points, possibly at 1500, but that would only ever be in a DA army with Belial and a Termie libby. In a vanilla army, I would begin to take a 10 man unit at 2k points plus. Such a 45o pt unit is at least a quarter of your points limit at less than 2k, making them a very ineffective unit for their points cost.

One thing that I am a big fan of currently is putting IC's in termie armour into standard squads, like termie chaplain leading vanguard squads in drop pods. This has two bonuses. Makes the unit a (reletively, compared to termies) cheap fire-magnet with very high damage, that is good value for points and has almost the same durability. A captain with TH/SS in a vanguard squad drop podding in is very powerful, more so if the captain is a chapter master and is part of an iron hands army. The captain absorbs all the shots, look out siring against stuff that will ID him, and the rest of the squad busts some heads in CC.

Also another point that is OT, to the OP, Please fix your grammar and writing. It is driving me insane and it makes it a lot harder to read. I don't mean this personally, but I just thought it would be good to know.

Selym wrote:Just thought I'd put in a word here about 3+ saves in 6th ed.

...

Heldrakes.

I shall leave it there.

IHateNids wrote:how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?

1, and 2 if you're facing a lot of vehicles.