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hi guys, I rescently played a friendly match with my best frined (who collects tyranids, well ten turmagants at the moment) any way so he used my 'nids for the match. I was very much surprised when my six tactical terminators kept 2 lictors, three warriors, three stealers and a carnifex all held up for three turns, meaning all he had to claim objectives with were gaunts.
and it was awesome, but I did some thinking and the army I used had 26 models including a dread (which dyed turn 1) and he had 45, considering tyranids I know that's not much and the realisation soured my mood a bit. so I was wondering, ten terminators, with 1 heavy flamer, 1 assault cannon and two chainfists worth the points in a competitive match of say, 1000 points, or suited more for 1500+ games?

No, unfortunately, terminators are kinda garbage. Too many points for a W1 T4 model.

Being good against Tyranids doesn't mean being good. Tyranids lack the ranged AP 2 shooting to deal with Terminators outside of close combat. Also, how on Terra did you keep a Carnifex tied up for 3 turns without either the Terminators or Carnifex dying?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Being good against Tyranids doesn't mean being good. Tyranids lack the ranged AP 2 shooting to deal with Terminators outside of close combat. Also, how on Terra did you keep a Carnifex tied up for 3 turns without either the Terminators or Carnifex dying?

the terminators didn't dy because they are awesome, the carnifex because of four wounds and I was concentrating on lictors.

Martel732 wrote:
No, unfortunately, terminators are kinda garbage. Too many points for a W1 T4 model.

I wouldn't say they're garbage at all; 2+ armor and a 5++ or 3++ depending on loadout is pretty durable. Terminators are firmly in the "decent" category of units that will generally do pretty well, but in the right situation will get smashed or win the day. Against armies low on AP2 shooting like Orks and Tyranids they can often wreck house. Against Tau, Eldar, or, ironically, many Marine armies, they can have a lot of trouble. That said, my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights won my game against Eldar the other night, so I think they can still do well in most situations.

Proper application can mean a whole heck of a lot, too.

 Brother SRM wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, unfortunately, terminators are kinda garbage. Too many points for a W1 T4 model.

I wouldn't say they're garbage at all; 2+ armor and a 5++ or 3++ depending on loadout is pretty durable. Terminators are firmly in the "decent" category of units that will generally do pretty well, but in the right situation will get smashed or win the day. Against armies low on AP2 shooting like Orks and Tyranids they can often wreck house. Against Tau, Eldar, or, ironically, many Marine armies, they can have a lot of trouble. That said, my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights won my game against Eldar the other night, so I think they can still do well in most situations.

Terminators are just too luck reliant imo, a game with terminators goes something like either:
1. You roll average or worse, they die really fast and you lose
or
2. You roll really well and they are indestructable gods of war

 Jimsolo wrote:
Proper application can mean a whole heck of a lot, too.

Definitely.

Deep striking a good unit of terminators at your enemy's rearguard on one flank, whilst bringing to bear another unit on the opposing flank can cause devastation, as your opponent may be unsure how to react, and could devote too much power to one threat, and not enough to the other, or try to split his forces (which can be taken advantage of by a third threat).

I've done this with my CSM termes on one flank, a DP on the other, and keeping the front under pressure with two untis of PM's and a Helbrute.
Ik this is a chaos army I'm talking about here, but the theory still applies.

Terminators are just too luck reliant imo, a game with terminators goes something like either:
1. You roll average or worse, they die really fast and you lose
or
2. You roll really well and they are indestructable gods of war

Quote for truth...

Well, Termies are a unit the enemy has to deal with. Think about Mordrak or Belial and friends who can implement an alpha strike. Assault Termies w/ TH/SS who can deal with any unit out there in the 40k universe. Normal Termies are a bit harder to pull off. I'd use to them to march through the center. Every shot against them is one shot less against your troops.

If terminators were 10 points less per model, they'd be about right... or if they stayed the same and gained a wound. They just aren't worth it right now.

There a fine unit if used properly.

okay, how would you use them properly

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Termies are good if applied properly. The just don't have the durability. That being said Meganobz are excellent. Cheaper than Termies with 1 moar wound and S:10 on charge toss 'em in a battle wagon and hurl 'em at the enemy and you'll do great! That's how I with Tau. But Termies are easily shot up by most armies before they can even move. If applied correctly they can do well but it's a heckuva risk.

Terminatord have on me more games than I care to think about, but they do need to be used correctly. They alos need the correct loadout for the foe they are facing,
Seeing how I play both Grey knigths and DA I have had games decided pretty fast by a unit or two of Terminators comming on the flanks or straigth down amongst the enemy heavy guns and rip them appart

It would also depend on your meta.

In my local, the only person who uses Termies always does well with them, but we don't have a lot of AP2 between us, since the 2 guard players moved on (EDIT: as in one switched to magic temporarily, the other stopped playing 40k altogether AFAIK, nobody died)

Please terminator supporters, please tell me the "proper way" to use these things. They are like a unit teleported straight out of the BA codex: overscosted.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Termies are good if applied properly. The just don't have the durability. That being said Meganobz are excellent. Cheaper than Termies with 1 moar wound and S:10 on charge toss 'em in a battle wagon and hurl 'em at the enemy and you'll do great! That's how I with Tau. But Termies are easily shot up by most armies before they can even move. If applied correctly they can do well but it's a heckuva risk.

Furious charge bonus doesn't multiply with power fists, so they're S9 on the charge.

Still pretty decent though.

Terminators on the other hand are not particularly competitive, but they're not garbage either. They're average, and if they were a few points cheaper they might even be good.

From a DW perspective I think terminators are great. They must stick together. On their own they get taken out pretty quickly. The FnP banner isn't too bad either. Just 2 saved wounds pays for it, and when it saves a third of my wounds when I only have 30 on the table you really start to see how dependent DA is on banners to be competitive.

CSM Termis can be useful when deep striking with combi-meltas or -flamers. You can drop a tank or put some hurt on a horde unit early on in a game.

They are costly, and will die if parked in front of massed fire or AP2 so as Jimsolo said, correct application is important. They go together well with Land Raiders, but your army has to be the sort of build that complements putting a lot of points in two units- which isn't necessarily ideal for everyone.

In short: They can be competitive, they just need to fit the army they're in and be used well.

Martel732 wrote:
Please terminator supporters, please tell me the "proper way" to use these things

Spam them. If you put 30 terminators on the board, it will take 180 non-AP2 wounds to kill them all. For BS4 bolters, that's 540 shots (=90 shots per turn in a 6-turn game). Terminators are good enough in close combat to be able to do stuff when they get there, so that should be your goal. Deepstrike is the best way, but Land Raiders can do good work too. Combat squad them. I've actually been shocked at how well footslogging terminators can do if your opponent lacks AP2 or mobility.

Obviously, they probably aren't the best choice against Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau. And if they aren't scoring, they really aren't worth spamming. However, it's a fun list to play and against a basic "take-all-comers" list from other codexes it will do ok.

If you don't spam them, a 5-man squad can be a distraction or buff up part of your line. Just don't deepstrike a single squad into your opponent's deployment zone turn 2 and expect them to live - 200 points can't beat 2000.

I just scare the gak out of people with two landraiders with 4++ (DA techmarine with pfg and bike) and IWND and 11 suits of TDA (librarian) with 6+ FnP. Fun fun fun.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Just don't deepstrike - into your opponent's deployment zone turn 2 and expect them to live - 200 points can't beat 2000.

How about 1260?

I occasionally bring 3 squads of 3 to the table (CSM) and deepstrike them in with combi-weapons. Basic Terminators are enough of a beatstick to cause havoc when they don't have specific combat weaponry. So the opponent has the choice of either gunning the terminators down and not firing at anything else, or shooting everything else and ending up with terminators up his backside.

I find that correct application isn't really the key to Terminators anymore, it is the opponents skill level. A good opponent won't worry about Terminators but an inexperienced one will lose to them due to not understanding how to properly counter the threats they present.

Edit: Spacing and grammar

Generally, I find all terminator lists aren't very competitive. Especially against armies that live in their transports, or have a lot of ap 1 and 2 weapons.

If your friend had been playing IG, you won't have stood a chance.

Regular termis are lackluster.

GK termis or deathwing however, are a league better.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Please terminator supporters, please tell me the "proper way" to use these things

Spam them. If you put 30 terminators on the board, it will take 180 non-AP2 wounds to kill them all. For BS4 bolters, that's 540 shots (=90 shots per turn in a 6-turn game). Terminators are good enough in close combat to be able to do stuff when they get there, so that should be your goal. Deepstrike is the best way, but Land Raiders can do good work too. Combat squad them. I've actually been shocked at how well footslogging terminators can do if your opponent lacks AP2 or mobility.

Obviously, they probably aren't the best choice against Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Tau. And if they aren't scoring, they really aren't worth spamming. However, it's a fun list to play and against a basic "take-all-comers" list from other codexes it will do ok.

If you don't spam them, a 5-man squad can be a distraction or buff up part of your line. Just don't deepstrike a single squad into your opponent's deployment zone turn 2 and expect them to live - 200 points can't beat 2000.

Fortunately, even my lowly BA have plenty of AP 2 shooting. And my Iron Hands bikers LOL at your terminators. Grav guns conveniently shoot them outside their assault range. And I laugh at your stormbolters and assault cannons or whatever. I guess there's one thing the BA still have its mobility. You'll never catch me

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

raiden wrote:okay, how would you use them properly

Using them for both Shooting and CC comes to mind.