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BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies, specifically due to the threat bubble they produce. GK TDA can dominate an entire quarter of the board, or deny the center, displacing mobile forces, and allowing for bottlenecks to occur. Terrain is the bane of mobile armies that need to breach a threat bubble to be effective. In short, maneuver all you want, but if you want line of sight, you have to fight me piecemeal.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

BA vindicators have a threat range of "36" [y'know about 3/4 of a 2x2 board]

After experiencing the Tau and Eldar, I really don't give a feth about GK. They have largely imperial weapons, bring em on. GK are not tabling me in 3 turns like Eldar.

I don't need vindicators to gun down GK terminators. Fast Las/plas razors, grav bikers, and dakka Baals work fine.

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

BA vindicators have a threat range of "36" [y'know about 3/4 of a 2x2 board]

What's your point level for a 2x2 board? 500pts?

SJ

What are you even talking about Jeffersonian000? BA terminators have a threat range of 30 inches (6 inch walk + 24 inch range storm bolters and psy cannons). All people are saying is that Blood Angel Vindicators have a threat range of 36 inches (12 inch move + 24 inch Vindicator Shot). a 2v2 Board has nothing to do with anything the fact that a Vindicator can shoot first. Its pretty obvious he meant to say 4x4 (which is typically played at 500-1000 points), and coincidentally 36 inches is exactly half 3/4 of a 4 feet)

Also this whole nuh uh, I've got a plan and will kill all vehicles by turn 2 is crazy talk, and why this "well I've got this unit therefore I would totally beat you" is very out of place in these forums.

Overall yes though, GK is and has always been a very tough match up for BA, but they have always been like that, seeing as they outshoot BA and out assault BA with their army wide force weapons. But its not an unwinnable match up, and units like the Fast BA Vindicator help them.

Anyway I don't think I've ever been impressed with generic Tactical Terminators. I use a small block in my Chaos as a combi melta drop bomb, but larger blocks always seem to underperform for their costs. THSS termies were pretty decent in 5th edition, but have gotten a bit worse in 6th.

I really want to use shooty terminators myself in my UM list. I want to use them as a threat as well as having some ranged threat. Whenever I run TH SS termies they get shot to pieces, usually from weight of fire over AP2 weapons. So i have determined regardless of configuration their chances of survival are the same.Their primary purpose is to act as a bullet sponge and to distract my opponent. As such, i believe that arming them with ranged weapons will allow some chance to do some damage before they are snuffed out. Now the only thing i cannot determine is which weapon to use. Im torn between the extra shots of the Assault Cannon or the AP 3 and range of the cyclone missile.

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

I like the new Vanguards better than terminators. Maybe I've lost my mind, but I think their superior mobility and ability to disorder charge at full strength is nice. And they can put cheap storm shields in the front of the squad.

I also like Sternguards better than terminators, since their special ammo is more flexible than anything terminators can be armed with.

I think ironclad dreads are also better than terminators. AV 13 is pretty sweet in a lot of circumstances and dual heavy flamer delivered via drop pod can be super mean.

LotD too then right?

I want to like terminators, I've had them do well in games (too well, statistically)... but proper application of ap2 makes them squish, and they're too expensive to get squished.

LotD is definitively an awesome unit infinitely better than termies

Oh yeah, ignore cover tech plus invulnerable 3++ = win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If terminators could get more heavies in their squads, they might become more worth it. But rather than doing that, GW made termi-tubbies.

termies need 2 wounds a piece and the option to have an assault cannon each (at the regular price ofc.)

Maybe three assault cannons so they could pretend to be as cool as war walkers. They still wouldn't have the range, but it would be a thing. The fact that their power fists are basically useless in the current meta is really warping their pricing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When GW made even a 2+ save a joke, they really messed with how this game plays out.

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

You forgot Deathmarks with their S8 Ap1 rending flame template buddy.

IonPie, Ghetto Rending, Gravy Guns, Plasma being the new black thanks to glancing being deadly... Yea, this current meta is not for terminators. This is coming from a guy bringing a Draigowing to a GT for the lulz. I face one White Scars biker army and I'll lose all my Dreadknights and my Paladins probably first, if not second turn unless I roll 5++ like the Emprah's Chosen. (Hint: I don't)

Terminators are garbage. Bring back their re-rollable 2+ armor save and you might have a usable unit. That'd be equal to the Screamerstar and Seer Council bull crap.

on another note, for tau, are stealth suits worth it??

 raiden wrote:
on another note, for tau, are stealth suits worth it??

I think they can be, but you gotta use them as chaff can sometimes be awesome.

 raiden wrote:
on another note, for tau, are stealth suits worth it??

Not really, (its why I bolded them for emphasis), all they do is bring S5 AP5 to the table, which is more efficiently done by Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits.

Before the new dex.. my friend was using DA Termies reguarly.. I respect them a bunch..

A bunch of boyz anyways.. Dice gods hate termies.. sure taking a few shots from some poor source of dakka is ok with mixed results.. 20 wounds from 30 orks? yeah ok roll 1's have fun.

My friend hates that his termies get 1W and my nobz of all flavor (and bikes) get 2W. Seem to make a major difference.. Honestly I think they biggest trend that could happen for termies is a reroll on failed saves at a reduced chance. (or FnP?)

As I said, termies need 2 wounds.

they need a bump to their invuln and +1 toughness. that way cheap P-Axe spam and rending spam wouldn't screw them so badly.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
hi guys, I rescently played a friendly match with my best frined (who collects tyranids, well ten turmagants at the moment) any way so he used my 'nids for the match. I was very much surprised when my six tactical terminators kept 2 lictors, three warriors, three stealers and a carnifex all held up for three turns, meaning all he had to claim objectives with were gaunts.
and it was awesome, but I did some thinking and the army I used had 26 models including a dread (which dyed turn 1) and he had 45, considering tyranids I know that's not much and the realisation soured my mood a bit. so I was wondering, ten terminators, with 1 heavy flamer, 1 assault cannon and two chainfists worth the points in a competitive match of say, 1000 points, or suited more for 1500+ games?

10 man terminator squads are way too many points in a single unit in 1000 point game...heck even 2 units of 5 terminators each is pretty pricey for a 1000 point game and unless playing Dark Angels deathwing that focuses on termies I'm not sure I'd even do it in a 1500 point game. Against 'nids that isn't too bad. Against just about any other army out there you will be shot to pieces from afar before they even get into combat directly. Sure it is sometimes cool to play the outnumbered force holding out to the last man, but if you make this a normal tactic that will be every game for you are lower point levels.

Skriker

Martel732 wrote:

When GW made even a 2+ save a joke, they really messed with how this game plays out.

And people complain about things with armor worse than this? Not normally...

Well, you have to realize the whole "2+ armor save a joke" thing kinda had to be that way. The cost of most models with a 2+ armor save is low enough where you can easily spam the crap out of them, if AP1 or 2 weapons outside of combat were so rare that the typical army might have 2-3 of them (none being a pi plate, or MAYBE one being a pi plate for some armies like Tau) then termies would rock the game. Weight of fire is still luck, ive had games where ive pumped 60+ shots at a single termie and it didnt die. If that was the norm for dealing with it, a couple 8-10man squads of termies would win every time with almost no challenge.

Though i have to admit its a little easy to get AP2 even still. I think they went a little overboard with it lol. Not by much mind you.

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

Care to explain what makes these units better than 'nators? [considering that they are all inferior ]

Kinda curious myself as to why he had stealth suits in that list, among others. Stealth suits are purely a thorn in the side that has the potential to snipe a vehicle but mainly just throw a gakton of shots out to be annoying while hiding in 2+ cover. 2+ cover is pretty easy to avoid these days, and most of the guns that do it (except flamer/heavy flamer/SMS/some bombs) also pen 3+ armor anyway and they have no invul to fall back on. Theyre also damn near 300pts to use, and thats not fully kitted out either lol

I love sw terminators. Yeah the th/ss version is way to expensive, but the base guy is dirt cheap. Also you can fill up the 10 man squad to get double heavies with pawg at a significant savings. Their ability to take combination weapons makes them very effective drop podders. Logan to make them scoring and you get a very effective unit that needs to be dealt with.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well, you have to realize the whole "2+ armor save a joke" thing kinda had to be that way. The cost of most models with a 2+ armor save is low enough where you can easily spam the crap out of them, if AP1 or 2 weapons outside of combat were so rare that the typical army might have 2-3 of them (none being a pi plate, or MAYBE one being a pi plate for some armies like Tau) then termies would rock the game. Weight of fire is still luck, ive had games where ive pumped 60+ shots at a single termie and it didnt die. If that was the norm for dealing with it, a couple 8-10man squads of termies would win every time with almost no challenge.

Though i have to admit its a little easy to get AP2 even still. I think they went a little overboard with it lol. Not by much mind you.

I disagree. They are extremely expensive which is why nobody uses them anymore. 5 at the most. Why would you use your one outlier of a terminator tanking 60 shots as an argument? That would be like me saying everything that rolls a 1 dies, ergo, all things die in 1 hit. Just roll a die until you see a 1. It doesn't take very much at all. Mathematically, 6 wounds will kill a terminator.

I disagree. 40 points is not cheap, in any way/shape/form. 'specialy not for a one wound t4 model.