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Zero? They already pay for powerfists.

 IHateNids wrote:
how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?

one or two. they tend to do better than meltabombs on tac sergeants anyway XD.

I'll bet XD

 IHateNids wrote:
how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?

You really don't need any since everything is resolved against rear armour. Only exception being the Land Raider of course.

And monoliths.

You still need a 4+ against drop pods and not everything has a 10 rear armor. However, you have to fight walkers on their front facings, so having at least one chainfist is a usually not a bad idea. Its pretty good insurance even if its on a just in case situation.

I run one chain fist and Arjac. (I play SW). I find my termies don't fear crashing into anything.

That's a good point. I'd have one chainfist for those contingencies. I've used shooty BA terminators with a heavy flamer and beamed them in with a teleport homer. It's not the best thing, but a no scatter heavy flamer is pretty nice.

Good points you guys brought up

I'm the only person I play with that has 14 AV boxes and walkers, so i tend to forget stuff like that.

Furioso dreads! They are still something worth taking in the BA book.

I was always jealous of those.

They're not worth it. The BA codex blows. Looking at it now, it wasn't even that amazing when it was new. It was magnificent at beating up non-Ork 4th edition codices, but was very quickly eclipsed by GK and Necrons.

Terminators need to be at least 5 points cheaper then they are now. As it stands now, they are far too expensive.

At least 5. It's hard to justify that much of a premium on 2+ when the Eldar roll out of bed and smoke 2+ saves. Hell, my BA don't really fear terminators, and that's pretty damning.

Martel732 wrote:But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

Who would hate Tyranids so much that they'd implement either of those rules? Apart from whoever it is that writes the Tyranid FAQs, that is.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Martel732 wrote:But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

Who would hate Tyranids so much that they'd implement either of those rules? Apart from whoever it is that writes the Tyranid FAQs, that is.

Matt Ward; they smashed up Ultramar once

The problem with terminators is that they are a below average shooting unit and an above average assault unit in an edition that makes shooting the absolute king. Or you can use terminator assault squads and get excellent CC, but you don't ever need that for anything.

Land raiders are easy to kill or cripple and without them then your terminators can't get into assault range. Their assault range is limited to strictly 13-18" (even worse if you have difficult ground) as opposed to 16-21" (or a straight 21" with no terrain in the way). You may not even get to assault until turn 3 if your opponent throws a useless unit in the way, as opposed to being able shoot for two full turns with a shooting unit.

Personally I don't see terminators in any of my friends competitive lists anymore. They're just so inferior to shooting units. What's better, a terminator assault squad on turn 3 assaulting or another unit shooting for 3 turns prior? Remember, shooting doesn't need to roll for random range and you can't shoot back at them in the same turn unlike in CC.

IMO they're very subpar now. 6th is a shooting game and maybe terminators are okay for counter assault but even then, eh.. You can counter assault with more shooting :p

Also, as Martel says.. BA is awful and dreadnoughts are incredibly easy to kill.. no need for chainfists, just do 3 glances and poof.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Martel732 wrote:But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

Who would hate Tyranids so much that they'd implement either of those rules? Apart from whoever it is that writes the Tyranid FAQs, that is.

I personally would adjust Tyranid AP along with such a rule. Don't forget that with this system, bolters are in the same boat against 2+. I think it fits the fluff much better.

I'd be interested to see what's considered a competive SM army list using the new codex. Any examples to share? Say 1500 to 2000 points.

FreeportPirate wrote:
I'd be interested to see what's considered a competive SM army list using the new codex. Any examples to share? Say 1500 to 2000 points.

We have hundreds in the army list section. I'd head there

Marines are indeed much better, but it's a bit annoying that a big part of the game is putting in enough bodies to suck up all the Tau/Eldar fire. It's like playing Orks with 14 pt boyz.

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Riptides?

Sternguard, as well. They are demonstrably better for their cost.

6 Assault Terminators in a Land Raider Crusader hurts whatever it hits - support it properly and it is devastating, leave them on their own they die - simples

My opinion on terminators (or more specifically termie armour) is that they are only worth taking as line support troops in a land raider, preferably a crusader or a redeemer (I would lean towards crusader for vanilla termies, redeemer for assault) not as deep striking troops, unless you are fielding some kind of teleport homer or locator beacon to accurately position your unit. I would never take a full 10 man unit at 1000 points, possibly at 1500, but that would only ever be in a DA army with Belial and a Termie libby. In a vanilla army, I would begin to take a 10 man unit at 2k points plus. Such a 45o pt unit is at least a quarter of your points limit at less than 2k, making them a very ineffective unit for their points cost.

One thing that I am a big fan of currently is putting IC's in termie armour into standard squads, like termie chaplain leading vanguard squads in drop pods. This has two bonuses. Makes the unit a (reletively, compared to termies) cheap fire-magnet with very high damage, that is good value for points and has almost the same durability. A captain with TH/SS in a vanguard squad drop podding in is very powerful, more so if the captain is a chapter master and is part of an iron hands army. The captain absorbs all the shots, look out siring against stuff that will ID him, and the rest of the squad busts some heads in CC.

Also another point that is OT, to the OP, Please fix your grammar and writing. It is driving me insane and it makes it a lot harder to read. I don't mean this personally, but I just thought it would be good to know.

Selym wrote:Just thought I'd put in a word here about 3+ saves in 6th ed.

...

Heldrakes.

I shall leave it there.

IHateNids wrote:how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?

1, and 2 if you're facing a lot of vehicles.