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 Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Only if the Necrons are DespiTek Deathmarks.

2+ saves are not bad, they're amazing. 2+ saves for heaps of points on a low Toughness 1 wound model are bad.

Vineheart01 wrote:Well, you have to realize the whole "2+ armor save a joke" thing kinda had to be that way. The cost of most models with a 2+ armor save is low enough where you can easily spam the crap out of them, if AP1 or 2 weapons outside of combat were so rare that the typical army might have 2-3 of them (none being a pi plate, or MAYBE one being a pi plate for some armies like Tau) then termies would rock the game. Weight of fire is still luck, ive had games where ive pumped 60+ shots at a single termie and it didnt die. If that was the norm for dealing with it, a couple 8-10man squads of termies would win every time with almost no challenge.

Though i have to admit its a little easy to get AP2 even still. I think they went a little overboard with it lol. Not by much mind you.

Errr what?
The cheapest 2+ armour in the game is a chaos terminator at 35?ish points, perhaps you are confused with 2+ Cover?

sing your life wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits In terms of targets they can be equipped nothing except maybe sternguard come close to the variety of targets they can engage and but they are slightly more efficient
Riptides nuff said
Stealth Suits high quantity anti-infantry on a fairly cost efficient and durable frame
Triarch Stalkers they are scatter lasers to the rest of your army
C'Tan shard reasonably costed and flexible MC in MChammer 40k
Wraithguard/Blades Terminators that are superior in virtually every way
Fire Dragons best anti tank in the group
BloodcrushersCavalry with power weapons

I can keep going if you want.

Care to explain what makes these units better than 'nators? [considering that they are all inferior ]

actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

Sigh, tau just had to be braught uP, honestly, I don't give a feth About other armies better qualities, unless you're telling me a way to use terminators in a battle, or giving a LEGITAMITE reason why they shouldn't be used, I don't want to here it

Yeah, but no invulnerable save. The only thing that keeps Mephiston on the field is his T6 and 5 wounds. Ork MegaNobs run into the same problem, only they are 40 points each. Having no inv save really makes the amount of AP2 and rending being thrown around really noticeable.

TDA Wolf Guard are 33 points and come with a stormbolter, power weapon (sword, axe, maul)

Chaos Terminators are 31 points and come with combibolter and power weapon (sword, axe, maul)

Both can play the mix and match weapons game and take various upgrades to make them customizable as needed. Because of this can actually fill many rolls instead of being shoe-horned into one roll like C:SM termies.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Because of this can actually fill many rolls instead of being shoe-horned into one roll like C:SM termies.

It is sad cuz it is true.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
I disagree. 40 points is not cheap, in any way/shape/form. 'specialy not for a one wound t4 model.

40 points for a single terminator, eh?

Yet another reason to worship chaos, then. We get ours at a base cost of 31 pts each (admittedly they only come with a normal power weapon, not a powerfist, but the powerfist is only 7 ppm, bringing them up to 38 pts each).

Small savings, but important ones nonetheless.

Also they start off as a 3-man unit

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Sigh, tau just had to be braught uP, honestly, I don't give a feth About other armies better qualities, unless you're telling me a way to use terminators in a battle, or giving a LEGITAMITE reason why they shouldn't be used, I don't want to here it

Wait... so "I'll ignore reasons I don't like, but give me more reasons" I dub thee trollkin

Lets compare shooty Termies to Sternguard, Bikes, and Honour Guard... three units in the same codex, I'll give everyone statistically average rolls

Sternguard at same points in a shooting match (and I'll let the termies shoot first)... kill all the termies and 5 sternguard walk away.
In a fight at 18" with an assault for the termies after shooting (each side gets one round of fire).... all the termies die and 3 sternguard walk away

Plus the sternguard are way more versatile and can become scoring and carry some serious firepower


Honour Guard? No invuln, so termies win? Right? Lets run the numbers... at same points, 5 shooty terminators against 8 HG (half PA, half PS... not even optimized to slaying termies)

HG charge? all termies die, 5 honour guard walk away...if they got to shoot before charging, 6 might walk away
Termies get the charge? 3 honour guard walk away

Assault termies do a little better (both wipe each other out if the termies are all TH/SS)... but if I optimize the HG with all PA, 3 HG walk away

Plus, Honour guard don't take up a slot, can come in via DS turn 1, and can sweep


Bikes is just supper sad. A bike command squad or 200 point standard bike squad shoots termies and kills them in 1 turn for the CS and 2 turns at worst for the standard squad

Bikes are more mobile, have a cover save as good as the invuln, pack way more punch, can sweep, and in White Scar or Raven Guard, are a hand full for your enemy


Only dreadnoughts are as big of a waste of points in the codex as the termies. They are literally in the running with vanguards and assault marines for the worst unit in the dex, and I think they win on their own lack of merits. If you wanted to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "NO! they're still good"... why post on a forum?

 raiden wrote:
actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

That's actually pretty reasonable price, I'm guessing WS5 and A2 on top as well?

 Lobukia wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Sigh, tau just had to be braught uP, honestly, I don't give a feth About other armies better qualities, unless you're telling me a way to use terminators in a battle, or giving a LEGITAMITE reason why they shouldn't be used, I don't want to here it

Wait... so "I'll ignore reasons I don't like, but give me more reasons" I dub thee trollkin

Lets compare shooty Termies to Sternguard, Bikes, and Honour Guard... three units in the same codex, I'll give everyone statistically average rolls

Sternguard at same points in a shooting match (and I'll let the termies shoot first)... kill all the termies and 5 sternguard walk away.
In a fight at 18" with an assault for the termies after shooting (each side gets one round of fire).... all the termies die and 3 sternguard walk away

Plus the sternguard are way more versatile and can become scoring and carry some serious firepower


Honour Guard? No invuln, so termies win? Right? Lets run the numbers... at same points, 5 shooty terminators against 8 HG (half PA, half PS... not even optimized to slaying termies)

HG charge? all termies die, 5 honour guard walk away...if they got to shoot before charging, 6 might walk away
Termies get the charge? 3 honour guard walk away

Assault termies do a little better (both wipe each other out if the termies are all TH/SS)... but if I optimize the HG with all PA, 3 HG walk away

Plus, Honour guard don't take up a slot, can come in via DS turn 1, and can sweep


Bikes is just supper sad. A bike command squad or 200 point standard bike squad shoots termies and kills them in 1 turn for the CS and 2 turns at worst for the standard squad

Bikes are more mobile, have a cover save as good as the invuln, pack way more punch, can sweep, and in White Scar or Raven Guard, are a hand full for your enemy


Only dreadnoughts are as big of a waste of points in the codex as the termies. They are literally in the running with vanguards and assault marines for the worst unit in the dex, and I think they win on their own lack of merits. If you wanted to stick your fingers in your ears and yell "NO! they're still good"... why post on a forum?

I gottaget me some sternguard

 Krellnus wrote:

 raiden wrote:
actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

That's actually pretty reasonable price, I'm guessing WS5 and A2 on top as well?

WS4 (should be 5), but that's offset with A2 +1 off hand +1 banner, so base 4, 5 on charge and get PW and 2+ in the deal. I put Tigurius with them and drop Invisibility or Prescience on them as needed. Champ is +1 A +1 WS, but is just a challenge buffer for the HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to Termies. They need a second wound at same cost. Then they'd be worth it.

 sing your life wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
There a fine unit if used properly.

200 points of elites from the any of the solid new codices (and necrons) will do far better than termies

Like what?

Like
Crisis Suits
Riptides
Stealth Suits
Triarch Stalkers
C'Tan shard
Wraithguard/Blades
Fire Dragons
Bloodcrushers

I can keep going if you want.

Care to explain what makes these units better than 'nators? [considering that they are all inferior ]

I dunno about you, but Crisis Suits and Riptides are far better than Terminators, and arguably, Wraith units are more resilient and pack more of a punch. Fire warriors definitely hit harder too.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 raiden wrote:
actually, honor guard have a 2+ armor and are 25 points each.

That's actually pretty reasonable price, I'm guessing WS5 and A2 on top as well?

WS4 (should be 5), but that's offset with A2 +1 off hand +1 banner, so base 4, 5 on charge and get PW and 2+ in the deal. I put Tigurius with them and drop Invisibility or Prescience on them as needed. Champ is +1 A +1 WS, but is just a challenge buffer for the HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to Termies. They need a second wound at same cost. Then they'd be worth it.

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

 Krellnus wrote:

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

Yep, bolters and grenades come with it all too.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

Yep, bolters and grenades come with it all too.

Damn, that's nice, if they can take drop pods, if you play the super chapter master, take like 7 in a pod, maybe join a chaplain or similar and use them to shore up your first wave.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

Damn that's very good, and they come with bolters too correct?

Yep, bolters and grenades come with it all too.

Damn, that's nice, if they can take drop pods, if you play the super chapter master, take like 7 in a pod, maybe join a chaplain or similar and use them to shore up your first wave.

You just described 1 of my 3 "go to" opening moves. Tigurius a CM and 8 HG in alpha drop. It's brutal and just laughs at Heldrakes and their ilk.

The reason why is because they die easily to AP 2 weapons, bolters, pie plate and they are a fire magnet.
Let me put it this way. A terminator will die just as easily to a Plasma shot as a regular marine, which is cheaper and serves a function.
Lets say with my regular firwarriors, Im putting alot of wounds on you. A 1 will be rolled. And most(Not all though) Large plats are ap2.

Termies still have 5+ invuln.

Just thought I'd put in a word here about 3+ saves in 6th ed.

...

Heldrakes.

I shall leave it there.

I ran Terminator heavy with my Grey Knights and I never found myself wishing I'd spent my point on another unit. They hold the line, match most CC armies blow for blow, and end up having a decent set of heavy weapons.

That being said, codex Terminators are sort of meh in comparison to their more specialized brethren. Assault terminators are a really scary thing, even in the Shootinghammer of 6th ed. Granted you don't see many terminators in competitive lists, but that doesn't mean they can't be used.

It's generally a YMMV sort of situation. Some people swear by some of the supposed 'worst' units in their codex's, but for whatever reason, those units work for that player.

 Frankenberry wrote:

It's generally a YMMV sort of situation. Some people swear by some of the supposed 'worst' units in their codex's, but for whatever reason, those units work for that player.

Often it's the fact that when a unit is considered unuseable, everyone stops building against it, as they don't think anyone will bring it.
Then, when they do meet it, they can get really screwed over.

But AP 2 never goes out of style. And weight of fire never goes out of style.

Also, I think terminators just got even worse with the graviton gun hitting the scene.

Many lists build for terminators by default because they are also covering riptides, MCs, and wraithknights. It also doesn't help terminators that most AP 3 weapons are very meh. (Blameflamer notwithstanding) Most folks go straight for AP 2.

Frankly, I think AP 2 is too common in this game compared to AP 3. And yeah, that's coming from a marine player. For example, perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

Martel732 wrote:
perhaps rending and all its derivatives (like Eldar) should only confer AP 3, not AP 2. Just a thought.

YES! QFT!

I think it would also help units like terminators if weapons with an AP that is say, three steps removed from the AP needed to penetrate gave those models a free reroll on the armor save.

That is: AP -, AP 6, AP 5 give 2+ models a free reroll to save.

AP - and AP 6 would give 3+ models a free reroll

This would really help with the whole "scatter laser is the ultimate weapon for killing practically everything because if causes so many wounds" problem. It would also create value for AP 4 and AP 3.

If Eldar and demons get to run around with rerollable 2+, maybe GW should make it a "thing".

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
BA are pretty easy to bully with GK TDA armies

Until a BA vindicator moves "12" and blows them up

If I let a Vindi get within 12" of me, I deserve the pie plate. Chances are that Vindi will died turn 1, and any other tank threat died turn 2, because I planned for it and executed my plan. Did I mention I play a Ghostwing?

SJ

BA vindicators have a threat range of "36" [y'know about 3/4 of a 2x2 board]

Can we just agree that you both sound like terrible players?

That was unnecessary.

I still find terminators very useful if used correctly.

You can't just drop them in front of an entire army and hope they survive, but rather drop them in a critical position, such as killing the squad that is camping on the back field objective, taking out those pesky dark reapers.

They are tanky enough that your opponent needs to divert a decent portion of force to deal with them because having terminators running around in your backfield unopposed is really bad

 Very Superstitious wrote:
I still find terminators very useful if used correctly.

You can't just drop them in front of an entire army and hope they survive, but rather drop them in a critical position, such as killing the squad that is camping on the back field objective, taking out those pesky dark reapers.

They are tanky enough that your opponent needs to divert a decent portion of force to deal with them because having terminators running around in your backfield unopposed is really bad

This.

It also doesn't help your opponent that they tend to be able to eat tanks when they're properly kitted out.

how many Chainfists is about right for a squad of five?