Alright so this is a topic that has crossed the section of my local game store many MANY times on the Pros and Cons of both Las- small arms ( Rifles , Pistols carbines ect. ) and Kinetic small arms being your normal Lead ( or steel ) spitting awesomeness that we all love the Quandary that comes forth is the Effectivness between Auto- and Las- Guns and the advantages and disadvantages in both , i personally am in the process of converting all of my Guardsmen to have Autoguns because hell they seem ultimately more badass . But here im going to talk about the pros and cons of both and hopefully you guys can add and debate this topic .



Las-guns ( Typical Rifle Varient we are assuming standard Varients )


Pros -

- extensive ammunition supply
,- this is contributed to the fact that the power-packs can last you though an entire campaign and in a dire emergancy can be recharged in a fire

-Magazine size
- while i am not exactly sure how large the Standard Autogun magazine is i would assume between 35-45 Rounds where as a Lasgun holds anywhere between 60 ( low end ) to 160 shots (high end of the spectrum ) this combine with the fact that several Magazines can last a trooper much longer in the field in a sustained battle provide a critical advantage

- Logistics ---
combine with the possiblity that 5 or so magazines can last a soldier ( if hes lucky ) though an entire campaign which makes for a much more reliable way to maintain ammunition supplies to troops when supply lines are indeed shaky at best ( when reliant on Warp Travel Shipping )

Atmospheric conditions -----
While las weapons are not affected by Wind , Bullet drop ect allowing for not having to Train troops on how to account for said issues


- Mechanical Reliability
--- Now im not to sure the maintenance that goes into las-guns so i could be brutally wrong and please correct me if that is so . -- from what i have read and understand lasguns require very little in the way of cleaning the primary requirements being clearing the barrel , focusing mirror for the laser and the Magazine/ battery feed which in terms of a firearm er... las arm ... is actually very little in comparison to the amount of moving parts needed to be cleaned in order to keep the weapon functional



Cons ---

Ammunition types ----
While an autogun or other similar projectile firearm can simply switch magazines to an ammunition type suited to the problem ( HE . AP . API ( Armor Piercing Incendiary ) and HEAP ( High-Explosive-Armor-Piercing ) ) a lasgun is extremely limited to the types of ammunition it can fire , for Hot-shot packs you either expend the entire magazine to fire a single high power shot ( as is used in Long-Las Varients ) or in the case of Automatic or semi-automatic variants is required to be attached to a Backpack mounted Powercell in order to supply the weapon , this setup requires a large amount of maintenance and specialized training in order to keep them functioning at peak performance . This in terms of flexibility greatly reduces the ability of the common soldier



Stopping Power -
In 40k fluff it is suggested that lasguns have little to no recoil , and as per Newtons law stating that for each reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction , the "beam" from a lasgun is never portrayed as having any sort of stopping power in comparison to solid slug projectiles this could be a critical draw back when fighting enemies that in the face of any kinetic projectile would be stopped or at least slowed would simply shrug off las-fire . This is critical in that the basic trooper would get extra seconds needed (hopefully ) from a weapon that had physical "kick" to it rather then something that was a simply beam of light


Rate of Fire -
While lasguns are known to have fully-automatic function it is described that the shot-per-shot power decreases dramatically and this rapidly drains the power pack , while the Rate of fire is important a lasgun sacrifices MUCH needed power to simply increase the RoF where as an Autogun or other projectile weapon is not sacrificing shot-per-shot power by going to fully automatic , while both drain the power-pack/magazine i do believe that despite the lasguns superior magazine size the autogun would make a mucher larger dent in an enemy

Armor Penetration -
ah the Famous downfall of the simply lasgun its lack of ability to pierce any armor , even that piece of leather worn by the creepy Slannash cultist ( joke )
regardless in fluff and in many books ( ill agree isn't exactly a consistant source ) Las-guns to posses the ability to slice though standard imperial Body armor its effect is greatly dimished when anyone decides they want to wear something with even a remote heat-dissipation ability this effect is greatly diminished and even in some cases almost entirely lost ( mainly looking at space marine adamantium and similar materials ) while an Autogun firing simple Steel Jacketed ammunition ( i personally have put a 7.62x54mm steel jacketed round though a 1.5 inch steel plate 9/10 times it penetrated ) would be much more capable of dealing with armor that was ballistically rated armor as well as heat rated armor - Mainly due to that when a ceramic plate ( for current body armor i can only assume that a similar standard would apply with futuristic armor and bullet propelants ) the impact from the round will most likely crack or shatter the plate rendering it ineffective , this is mainly solved by having multiple overlapping plates to disperse energy over a large area so the plates do not become over stressed and crack . Alot of my Argument will fall to the " Its science fiction " or " its 40k no reason here !! " However i can only speculate as to the different advantages and disadvantages at this time --- anyway back on track i do believe that the lasguns lack of ability to defeat very simple heat absorbent armor is its ultimate downfall here



Damage to Target ( high speculated ) -- So it is commonly accepted that a las-bolt when it strikes causes a mini-explosion as the liquid in the cells surrounding the impact site instantly boil from the head and explode causing a suprisingly large amount of damage - this would be awesome if the wound didn't mostly cauterize upon impact as well as leaving behind very little pain due to the fact that when the nerves are exposed to flash heat such as that , the die and are sealed before they can transmit any signals of pain to the brain . Further more the cauterizing effect also makes it impossible for the victim to bleed out enough to cause shock , where as the shock that does ensue will most likely be from the mental mindset and seeing the injury , this is all fine and dandy when fighting other humans but when engaging a foe that feels no pain or is on a combat "high " ( Orks ect ) the shock won't set in and lacking of bleeding caused by the wound will make it extremely unlikely to render such an opponent incapacitated by a las-shot . This brings up the point where Slugs from an Autogun would be prefered As when the slug hits , the round entering first would have an immediate entry wound afterward the round would ( usually) begin to tumble after the primary expansion in which case Fragments break off from the round , this causes massive internal hemorrhaging and after several rounds could very well incapacitate a larger opponent though blood loss , as the shot itself may not be felt by the victim they will not be able to ignore the fact that their blood is now pouring onto the ground . granted this process will be very different depending on the Size , strength , and endurance of varying opponents but at least its something compared to our auto-cauterizeing friend






Autogun - ( for the basis of this we are going to assume 7.62x54mm steel jacketed rounds and a 35 round Magazine )


Pros-

Highly Adaptable

While a lasgun in order to fit some roles will require an entirely additional system (hellguns hotshots ect.) to change out the requirement for an autogun would simply require a change of ammunition in order to fit different roles , this combine with the ability to change out parts rather quickly to convert from a carbine to rifle or visa-versa would on a very basic level would only require a change of Stock or barrel length - while this may seem like a very small point it is actually extremely important when serving in a protracted campaign an unit that uses Long barrel rifles could switch to Carbine length rifles when transitioning from large open areas to very dense urban combat zones is actually a very large advantage that could contribute to the survival of the average soldier and in turn make operations involving them much more successful


Stopping Power

While a single Round may not have the necessary power to stop a foe in his tracks , a burst of several rounds would certainly be enough to stagger an opponent even if only for a moment which could very well be critical to safe a soldiers life in a close encounter with an enemy combatant . While this again may seem extremely minor in the scope of things this is fundamentally important as the basic rifleman could very well be critical to a mission be it marking targets for an airstrike with smoke or simply holding a mission critical area . When dealing with larger opponents who would remain unaffected by traditional las-weaponry




Mechanical Reliability -

while not nearly as much so as the humble lasgun however i do believe it deserves a mention as the primary parts that need to be cleaned are the Firing assembly ( firing pen , ejection port , magazine port and feed , charging assembly ect. ) Barrel and Gas assembly would require minimal cleaning depending on the design of the firearm


damage to Target -

While i have already discussed the fact that a standard round upon will more then likely begin to tumble when it hits the target and with expansion from rounds with very rudimentary hollow-point shape ( very easily can be done by hand with a a file or drill bit ) with that expansion comes fragmentation which will cause large amounts of internal damage from a single round , while this may not be nearly enough to stop a large opponent several rounds ( our several hundred if firing en mass like the guard do ) not to mention on targets that are hit will have to survive losing tremendous amounts of blood after several rounds impact the organic tissue , while larger opponents ( such as Ork Nobs and Tyranid Warriors ) would most likely not have an immediate affect due to the physiology of said creatures however lesser ones ( normal Orks and genestealers ) that usually shrug off las-fire would indeed be halted by several rounds piercing their hide/armor which in comparison would certainly increase the amount of Guardsmen surviving encounters with said creatures


Armor Penetration

As this has been covered before i will only go into slight detail - Sum of the point is while las-bolts may be outright ignored by a space marine ( traitor and loyalist ) due to the extremely head absorbent properties of both adamantium and cremite ( they armor re-entry capable vehicles with it for god sake lol ) I however think that in the face of Ballistic projectiles would be much more likely to eventually cause stress fractures in the power armor allowing for further concentrated fire to indeed begin chipping substantial portions away , while i do not believe this alone could sway this to be advantageous to the Autogun i would say this leads to my argument for Ballistic projectiles working better against standard infantry protection . As some enemies do use normal steel plates as armor ( Orks , cultist ect.) and that a 7.62x54 does posses the ability to easily penetrate such protection it would fall mainly down to an orks sheer willpower which in the face of suffering internal bleeding on multiple injurys while they are tough eventually these would catch up and kill the creature .


Cons

Ammunition -- As compared to the lasgun logistics would be an absolute nightmare , supplying millions of tons of Beans, Bullets and band-aids to soldiers on a campaign is a hard task , but on a scale of a galactic conflict , i'd say nearly impossible without more stable travel though the warp . So Unless the guardsmen are fighting on a world that manufactures Bullets instead of Las-batterys 90% of the supplies these guard forces use are going to have to be brought in from Navel vessels , a characteristic relatively unheard of in the guard to my knowledge , this also would mostly invalidate the concept of having multiple ammunition types ( HE , API , AP , HEAP ) as supplying multiple types of ammunition in addition to the tons of munitions already required by the guard is a duanting task , not impossible but extremely dependent on supplys brought with them


Atmospheric conditions -
As is the normal thing with bullets is they don't magically go in a straight line forever , there is an amazing force called gravity which has something amazing called bullet drop , over longer distances the drop increases and the round eventually hits the dirt at some point , Now this is in perfect conditions , Range is only shortned by other conditions such as Wind , Heavy rain temperature ( will explain shortly ) and in some cases depending on other conditions on the planet ( snow storms , corrosive enviroment ect, ) now back to temperature i said i would explain , proportionally higher temperatures will allow a round to travel further and faster as the heat makes combustion of the powder inside a Bullet quicker and more even combustion of the powder ( longest shot in the world was made by two canadian snipers who left their .50 cal ammo in the sun in Afghanstan before firing ) where as a cold environment will actually make the combustion take longer ( not by much ) and the powder will not ignite evenly making range shorter and bullet drop quicker ( to my knowledge i have yet to go to sniper school going in 3 months ) a good example of this is during the winter war in Stalingrad during WW2 Artillery actually had decreased range and somewhat common mis-fires as the powder inside shells would not ignite when the primer was struck
Now im not sure if this is a good example because its very possible that new advances in chemicals for Powder render these problems no longer an issue .



Jamming , Squibs , misfires ect.
- While a las-gun can not physically jam as there is no moving parts ( aside from mag release and trigger to my knowledge) and there is not solid projectile for a squib to take place ( when the round ignites and propels halfway down the barrel and actually turn blocking the barrel , pain in the ass to clear ) a Las-gun has already proven superior in these manners , a Jam is vastly easier to clear is it usually involves simply pulling the charging handle , clearing said obstruction and loading another round into the chamber , this could take seconds which are potentially vital in any combat situation , a Squib on the other-hand can range from rendering the weapon inoperable until it is cleared to actually causing the weapon to explode if more rounds are fired unintentionally ( think firing on burst or automatic ) This is extremely hazardous because you created a small fragmentation weapon in enough to wound and even kill those in close proximity , this is only increased dramatically if you are firing High Explosive or High-Explosive-Armor-Piercing (HEAP) as when the explosive core impacts the round infront of it during a squib it has a good chance of setting off the explosive charge


Recoil -

while this is part of the advantages it is also a disadvantage , in the hands of an untrained operator recoil can be a small inconvinence to outright dangerous to the forces nearby as an untrained trooper unable to contain the recoil could unleash a burst into his own men. While a lasgun has absolutely no to minimal recoil even when firing fully automatic this presents us with the issue of firing a 7.62x54mm cartridge ( approx .308) on fully automatic where as a larger male ( personally im 6'1 and a trained Soldier ) has difficulty firing on automatic with said cartridge and keeping it pointing in a safe direction ( i go by 15 degree arcs from holding the rifle 90 parallel about to your body ) firing with any accuracy on fully automatic is entirely out of the question , unless of course your target is 10 feet tall and standing in Bayonet range and you happen to not be changing magazines -- in terms of managing recoil , semi-automatic and burst fire options are the only two that would be resonable at trying to engage targets at a long distance



Magazine Size -

As GW has stated that the autoguns are indeed " Caseless" ( im not even sure if they know what that means lol ) and that the magazines hold between 35 and 45 rounds depending on magazine type ect, ( Straight , bannana , drum ect. ) this puts them at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to comparing the magazine ,,um battery capacity of a lasgun ( 160 shots in some cases and 45 in others depending on power setting ) this would require a large amount of ammunition to be carried onto the battlefield by each individual trooper for an extended deployment on the battlefield - I.E my grandfather in vietnam had to carry nearly 35 magazines for his M-16 ( which 5.56 is actually a fairly light weight round in comparison ) for a two week patrol action and that wasn't even for prolonged combat as the Guard would more then likely face . This in terms of a Guardsmen would add extreme weight to his combat gear




for those of you who suffered though this wall of text , i Salute you o7 , and please commit below any arguments you may have for either side , please be intelligent in your arguments and be willing to accept when your wrong .


Thanks !












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Anyone at all ?

A typo in your OP-- it's weaponry, not weaponary. It struck me as even more odd, since you spelled it right later on in the post.

Sorry typed that up on my phone , but seriously that's the only reason you commented ? Really dude ?

i feel they both have their merits (which is why vets get shotties free =p). you CAN get lots of nasty stuff fromconventional firearms but the logistics of supplying the grunts detracts from that. so for grunts i would say no but for units like vets who would have spent time in the field learning the strengths and weaknesses of there opponents i could see where ammo variety would play a greater part. But the imperium really doesnt need to supply those troops with them either as they could probably just pick one up of some cultist ( just dont let the chaplain or commisar see, also if it starts talking/bleeding/glowing get rid of it) giving the vet a weapon that he can use and cook up nasty rounds for without detracting from imperial supplies.

I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

Thanks for a very interesting read!

In the 41st millenium the IoM probably values resources like guns and space transports more than human lives which lead to the conclusion that lasguns are superior when viewed from the IoM's point of view since they are easier to opperate and require less logistics whereas the guardsman wuold probably value an autogun more

Just one thing to the penetration/stopping power of the lasgun:
Keep in mind that it is an energy weapon that uses heat to damage its target. Forget the recoil/Newton's law thing, because as an energy weapon the energy transference is not kinetic but heat-based and not a one-off event but a continuous projection.

Also, it must be noted that WH40k scale armour is super-durable. By all accounts the humble IG flak armour should have the protection rating of a HUMVEE armour plate. 33% chance to counter a 15mm machine gun round (Heavy Stubber)? That's awesome! They have the wet-wc paper feel only because the weapons are even more powerful (everyone is running around with an automatic RPG launcher aka boltgun and such).

Also, las weapons don't cauterize the wound. Boiled water can't set stuff on fire y'know .

On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

The tricky thing about such comparisons is that the details depend heavily upon where you look. A lot of authors have their own ideas, and 40k grants considerable artistic license, so essentially you can fluff your las- and autoguns how you want.

I will, however, comment based on GW's original material:

- Ammunition size of an autogun magazine is given as 30 rounds in "Inquisitor"
- Lasguns suffer in accuracy and power over long range due to particles in atmosphere diffusing the beam
- Lasguns actually do have a kinetic impact as the rapid extension of supraheated materials of the impact zone causes a small explosion (perhaps unexpectedly, the science between this actually seems sound)
- In GW's material, automatic fire does not drain the chargepack any faster than if you'd fire the same amount of blasts in single shot. In this, it acts exactly the same as an autogun. However, not all lasguns actually have this functionality; in "Inquisitor", only the Necromunda-pattern is capable of autofire
- Then again, not all autoguns may have automatic fire as well (see modern day assault rifles)
- Simultaneously, the Triplex-pattern (mentioned in both Inquisitor and the 5E Guard Codex) includes a variable charge setting that allows single shots to be increased in power, essentially acting like ad-hoc special ammo, without the need to actually switch magazines (however, the Triplex is said to be "highly sought after" for this feature, so this seems to be a rare trait)
- Standard lasgun blasts have a similar damage profile as standard autogun rounds. In Inquisitor, a single shot has a ~17% chance to punch through Marine-grade power armour and cause an injury to the wearer - this is in line with PA fluff from Codex Angels of Death, which personally I would hold to higher standards than "Hollywood" novels with protagonists and plot armour
- Whilst las hits do cauterise the wound and thus largely prevent blood loss, the 6E rulebook's section on "las wound dressing" in the back mentions that the main cause of death of victims not immediately slain by a hit is rapid swelling around the impact site followed by widespread failures of bodily functions
- Mechanic adaptability is no inherent advantage of autoguns. A folding stock, for example, could technically be a feature of both autoguns as well as lasguns, although existing artworks and miniatures suggest that such traits are not popular in the Imperium of M41, for either weapon
- Autoguns can fire caseless as well as cased rounds depending on model; this portrayal has changed fairly early in the fluff, similar to how bolters fired caseless rounds in 1E but ever since 2E use cased projectiles

Thank you everyone who has responded

- on the topic about recoil I was pretty exhausted last night so that would attribute as to why it doesn't make all that much sense in some areas , but recoil does have an equation to literal stopping power and as the lasgun has no recoil it would also have no stopping power .

As for damage _>>> in every source I've looked into the explosion takes place and the wound almost instantly cauterizes After the flesh is vaporized , so yes the water would instantly boil but with the extreme heat and the fact that it vaporizes flesh it would certainly cause the water to turn to steam - granted this process happens in milli-seconds

Armor - I saw mention about the durability of Flak armor , that is comparing to Modern propellants and rounds , it would be safe to assume that propellant technology would have advanced as well as the material that the physical rounds are made from which could overall have much greater penetration - a real world example of this -
The first rifle to use cartridges and a bolt-action design was built in Prussia in the mid -1800's If I recall correctly , compare a modern round from the exact same caliber and the modern one would have high power due to advances made in only 160 years , now imagine this stretched over thousands --- just some speculation



->>> early it was mentioned that about how las, auto guns are better in different situations so would it be safe to say that the lasgun is a better weapon Strategically and the auto gun is better tactically ?

Based on the contents of the old Guard accessories sprue, folding stock las guns are routinely issued to tank crews, so they can't be that uncommon.

 Flinty wrote:
Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Are you kidding? The H&K G11 is an engineering marvel powered by clockwork and gypsy magic! You can't go further than that gun!

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Are you kidding? The H&K G11 is an engineering marvel powered by clockwork and gypsy magic! You can't go further than that gun!

Watching the 3 shot burst fire is awesome

For more info, and links to video footage:
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23:the-g11-caseless-military-rifle&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5


[edit] - the video links are busted, but its all on youtube

 Lynata wrote:
The tricky thing about such comparisons is that the details depend heavily upon where you look. A lot of authors have their own ideas, and 40k grants considerable artistic license, so essentially you can fluff your las- and autoguns how you want.

I will, however, comment based on GW's original material:

- Ammunition size of an autogun magazine is given as 30 rounds in "Inquisitor"
- Lasguns suffer in accuracy and power over long range due to particles in atmosphere diffusing the beam
- Lasguns actually do have a kinetic impact as the rapid extension of supraheated materials of the impact zone causes a small explosion (perhaps unexpectedly, the science between this actually seems sound)
- In GW's material, automatic fire does not drain the chargepack any faster than if you'd fire the same amount of blasts in single shot. In this, it acts exactly the same as an autogun. However, not all lasguns actually have this functionality; in "Inquisitor", only the Necromunda-pattern is capable of autofire
- Then again, not all autoguns may have automatic fire as well (see modern day assault rifles)
- Simultaneously, the Triplex-pattern (mentioned in both Inquisitor and the 5E Guard Codex) includes a variable charge setting that allows single shots to be increased in power, essentially acting like ad-hoc special ammo, without the need to actually switch magazines (however, the Triplex is said to be "highly sought after" for this feature, so this seems to be a rare trait)
- Standard lasgun blasts have a similar damage profile as standard autogun rounds. In Inquisitor, a single shot has a ~17% chance to punch through Marine-grade power armour and cause an injury to the wearer - this is in line with PA fluff from Codex Angels of Death, which personally I would hold to higher standards than "Hollywood" novels with protagonists and plot armour
- Whilst las hits do cauterise the wound and thus largely prevent blood loss, the 6E rulebook's section on "las wound dressing" in the back mentions that the main cause of death of victims not immediately slain by a hit is rapid swelling around the impact site followed by widespread failures of bodily functions
- Mechanic adaptability is no inherent advantage of autoguns. A folding stock, for example, could technically be a feature of both autoguns as well as lasguns, although existing artworks and miniatures suggest that such traits are not popular in the Imperium of M41, for either weapon
- Autoguns can fire caseless as well as cased rounds depending on model; this portrayal has changed fairly early in the fluff, similar to how bolters fired caseless rounds in 1E but ever since 2E use cased projectiles

Extremely good points , however I would argue that stating that auto guns posses 30 round magazines isn't exactly a good argument as auto guns like lasgun a vary widly between models however you do raise excellant points on the disadvantages of both , for the sake of consistency I am encompassing novels, and the GW works as well as forge world as GW to me st least has proven inconsistent at best when it comes to some areas of fluff -

Kasrkin229 wrote:early it was mentioned that about how las, auto guns are better in different situations so would it be safe to say that the lasgun is a better weapon Strategically and the auto gun is better tactically ?

That sounds like a viable point to make.
Although it would depend on specifics ... for example, I'd regard a Triplex lasgun as flat-out better than an autogun, since you don't need to actually load any "special ammo", you simply flip a switch and suddenly your next shot has more power. Greater shot capacity also means that you'll require fewer reloads in the midst of battle, and the gun is less likely to cease functioning in the worst moment imaginable.

In Inquisitor and Necromunda, the primary reason for why some people love to run around with autoguns was the psychological effect of their rather loud discharge, and the fact that there's no shortage of bullets in the local Hive. It tends to be the ganger's weapon of choice.

Kasrkin229 wrote:however I would argue that stating that auto guns posses 30 round magazines isn't exactly a good argument as auto guns like lasgun a vary widly between models

Indeed, especially as you could also use drum mags etc - it would probably be best to regard those numbers as averages. It still implies that autoguns have a notably smaller magazine though.

Kasrkin229 wrote:for the sake of consistency I am encompassing novels, and the GW works as well as forge world as GW to me st least has proven inconsistent at best when it comes to some areas of fluff

The more sources you adopt into your debate, the less consistency you will have, though. "Many cooks spoil the broth."
I can only caution against such an approach, and recommend deciding on a single origin. Said single origin, however, of course does not have to be GW.

Well I was reading up on the Tripex and as you increase shot power you decrease the amount of shots I'm the battery (naturally ) but can anyone find a reference as to how more powerful the Tripex is compared to other lasguns ?

And looking at The consistency aspect it would seem better to perhaps use forge world and GW ?

When I did my write up on magazine size I did not include the possibility of drum magazines (I did but not largely ) however drum magazines dramatically increase malfunction rate as there is no time for the weapon to cool between magazines ( ie when reloading ) as the drums have a much larger capacity they would overheat faster


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 Flinty wrote:
On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Oh I know what case less is but I doubt the writers at GW do ,

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

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 Flinty wrote:
On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Oh I know what case less is but I doubt the writers at GW do ,

D'oh totally misread your post... apologies, no offence intended!

Haha that's fine , glad your throwing valuable input toward the debate

Kasrkin229 wrote:Well I was reading up on the Tripex and as you increase shot power you decrease the amount of shots I'm the battery (naturally ) but can anyone find a reference as to how more powerful the Tripex is compared to other lasguns ?

I can only offer the stats from GW's Inquisitor game:

For comparison, to injure a Space Marine in that game you'd have to cause more than 10 points of Damage. This seems roughly in line with both the 40k TT rules as well as the C:AoD fluff.
All in all, the weapon profiles seem very circumstancial, each having their niche, which is probably exactly why they were written this way.

Comparing an overcharged Triplex to an autogun with Manstopper rounds, you'd arrive at 2d6+5 versus 3d6+2 Damage, for an average of 12 vs 12.5, with the autogun offering a greater maximum damage but the lasgun a more reliable performance. That being said, the autogun can do burst fire, whereas the Triplex (unlike the Necromunda) cannot.
Maybe there is a lasgun that combines the features of the Triplex and the Necromunda into one, but if there is, it's not listed.

It should be pointed out, however, that these stats too are obviously not a consistent thing, thanks to 40k allowing for a lot of interpretation. For example, in FFG's 40k RPGs, las- and autoguns do feature a similar general damage profile, but - depending on the exact game you play - either feature fewer differences between the patterns, or have every single las weapon (even pistols) have a charge slider (this was not intended at first, but the players were lobbying for this feature on the forums, and the designers ultimately relented), or none at all (because the charge slider first showed up in "Black Crusade", back then mentioned as a tech-heretical modification by cultists, only to become a standard feature for all Imperial troops in "Only War" ... yay consistency!).

Kasrkin229 wrote:And looking at The consistency aspect it would seem better to perhaps use forge world and GW ?

Even then you're bound to run into contradictions, for that's still two different teams of writers.
I could only shake my head when, in the Siege of Vraks books, I had to read about hotshot las rounds ricocheting off Marine power armour. Ricocheting!
Not to mention the twisted treatment of the SoB and neglection of their Codex fluff, but that's for another thread.

Kasrkin229 wrote:When I did my write up on magazine size I did not include the possibility of drum magazines (I did but not largely ) however drum magazines dramatically increase malfunction rate as there is no time for the weapon to cool between magazines ( ie when reloading ) as the drums have a much larger capacity they would overheat faster

Yeah, it's a mixed bag! I remember drum magazines actually increasing jam chances in Inquisitor, too.
Although there it was a feature only used for bolt weapons. I'm just assuming it could be available for autoguns as well.

 Flinty wrote:
On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Very important considering the dust and debris associated with warfare. The air is never clear.

I hadn't actually considered that , almost embarrassing that I forgot , about battlefield debris affecting both weapons platforms , I personally believe the auto gun would perform better in that situation

As for the Tripex vs auto gun part from what you've described it would seem a lasgun and auto gun can inflict similar types of damage of both are using upgrades types of ammunition (man stopper = hydro shock ? )

Kasrkin229 wrote:]I hadn't actually considered that , almost embarrassing that I forgot , about battlefield debris affecting both weapons platforms , I personally believe the auto gun would perform better in that situation

I do, too.
I think I would sum it up as the autogun being more resistant to stress, whereas the lasgun requires less maintenance. An autogun still has a chance to just jam in the midst of battle due to all the moving parts and oil etc.

In short, the lasgun is more reliable until it stops working, whereas with autoguns you may run into complications more often but they are often easier/quicker to fix (such as simply clearing a fouled round from the chamber).

Kasrkin229 wrote:As for the Tripex vs auto gun part from what you've described it would seem a lasgun and auto gun can inflict similar types of damage of both are using upgrades types of ammunition (man stopper = hydro shock ? )

Similar in severity, perhaps? Don't ask me which is easier to treat, though - the lasgun wound fluff in the 6E rulebook sounded suitably dangerous, but I have almost zero medical experience.

I recall we had at least one paramedic on dakka, maybe we'll yet get some professional comments regarding such details!

Well I've been asking some of the medics in my platoon and they all have agreed that cauterized wounds are much easier to treat on the field where as they are more difficult to treat in surgery because the cells have been Burned shut requiring skin grafts and such to help it heal , where as a bullet is more immediately threatening but is much more easy to recover from due to being able to effectively bandage the wound


- I'm no medic but that's a rough summery of what I picked up when they started discussing it so if there are any things not true blame it on me not understanding them lol

Oh, the cauterisation part, sure, but what about the swelling? That's the threatening bit, as supposedly this can lead to the body just "shutting down" ... depending on where you've been hit for how many deciseconds.
Not sure if there is any medical science behind this, but that's what it says in the 6E book, and it sounds somewhat plausible.

Cool that you have such a ready source of information to tap, though!

Lasweapons wouldn't cauterize to begin with. It would cause wounds that violently explode as blood gets superheated. Anything weak enough to merely cauterize isn't likely to kill someone.

I'm just repeating what it says in the book.

It can possibly be argued away by the high temperature not dropping immediately, so the cauterisation effect would occur after the explosive expansion (which is over within the blink of an eye).
No, I have no idea whether that's scientifically or medically plausible, but it sounds good enough in my head to accept it as an excuseexplanation.

Areas away from the actual point of impact may be heated slowly enough that the water doesn't vaporize immediately and you get a scorching of the tissue.

That's certainly possible, I'm really glad that you guys are responding to this , now for sniper rifles what would be the advantages and disadvantages of a long-las to an Average sniper rifle firing slugs

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
That's certainly possible, I'm really glad that you guys are responding to this , now for sniper rifles what would be the advantages and disadvantages of a long-las to an Average sniper rifle firing slugs

Las weapons are proably considerably quieter

I would argue not , as lasguns of any type are always noted to make a distinctive "crack" as the Air ionizes around the bolt , which could be quite loud , a Rifle firing Bullets can use a suppressor which disperses the gas to make the normally explosive sound of the gas exiting the barrel little more then a loud cough as the gas escapes much more slowly . Las weapons in no accounts have I ever heard can be silenced

Snipers don't necessarily need quiet weapons. Marksmen attached to normal infantry formations can hide their fire in the midst of the rest of their comrades and its these guys that likely use long-las type weapons. Main reference would be the Gaunts Ghosts series. Its only infiltratey types that need silence and from the fluff these guys get issued needle sniper rifles instead. The pulsed laser in a needle sniper rifle only needs to make a small hole for the neurotoxin to get through and into the target, so may be quieter than a standard hot-shot long las.

 Hawky wrote:
I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

It probably wouldn't take much more than your average magnet to screw with a lasgun. The only way you'd need a "super-strong electromagnetic field" is if you plan on taking out the entire army and it's mother's worth of equipment. Or SH vehicles...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Lasweapons wouldn't cauterize to begin with. It would cause wounds that violently explode as blood gets superheated. Anything weak enough to merely cauterize isn't likely to kill someone.

Regarding this, in either Helsreach or Rynn's World (I can't remember which), a comissar (IIRC) shoots another man in the face with a laspistol. The wound is described as having burned his face off, and killing him. It is fairly plausible that it causes the flesh to detonate somewhat, before cauterising from the heat, but not before [fatal to human] damage occurs.

Additionally, somewhere in the fluff section of the 6E rulebook it describes the medical procedure for treating a man who has taken a las-shot to the chest. The procedure is to wrap him up in bandages to cover the wound, as organ failure is considered inevitable, and treating it serves only to keep morale up.

Once again going solely by Inquisitor, ballistic sniper rifles have a higher damage profile, whereas las snipers have a greater accuracy.
Sounds okay to me.

Hawky wrote:I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)
Auroguns are most likely immune.

It could also simply be that lasguns are shielded against this sort of interference. It would make sense, precisely because otherwise this would be a major disadvantage locking down entire armies, and it's not too hard to do, given that we're already doing this today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding

[edit] fixed quote name

 Lynata wrote:
Once again going solely by Inquisitor, ballistic sniper rifles have a higher damage profile, whereas las snipers have a greater accuracy.
Sounds okay to me.

Hawky wrote:I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)
Auroguns are most likely immune.

It could also simply be that lasguns are shielded against this sort of interference. It would make sense, precisely because otherwise this would be a major disadvantage locking down entire armies, and it's not too hard to do, given that we're already doing this today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding

Corrected that for ya

Whoops. Sorry for that.

Well I would certainly attribute greater accuracy as it possess's no recoil due to not having a powder ignition .
Where as the situation involving stealth bring needed the argument is between las, Kinetics .
While the neuro-toxin would fall under kinetic lets leave it out of the argument

Actually las weaponry does have recoil.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually las weaponry does have recoil.

However it does not possess Enough to impact accuracy over long distances - at least that's my understanding of it

I'd put Las weaponry ahead as the better weapon.
Logistics wins battles.
Las weapons have a simpler logistics chain and need less resupply.

 marv335 wrote:
I'd put Las weaponry ahead as the better weapon.
Logistics wins battles.
Las weapons have a simpler logistics chain and need less resupply.

I could agree on part of that , however if mass amounts of soldiers are dying because their primary Weapon is ineffective against the enemy you are engaging then your logistics becomes more stressed from having to take many more casualties . Not saying an auto gun is going to instantly make supply chains less strained but it adds a different aspect

Reference to the published stat comparisons, both in terms of the detailed Inquisitor values and the general 40k and Necormunda stats shows that the guns are broadly equivalent in terms of effectiveness. Given that, the Lasgun's better stats on reliability and logistics makes it the obvious choice for general issue. However there are examples in the fluff of regiments being given non-standard weapons for particular purposes. Similarly all Stormtroopers are issued a weapon that is harder and more costly to maintain than standard lasguns, and in times past even squad sergeants gould get bolt pistols which are also noted as being hard and costly to maintain properly, but have particular benefits over las weaponry. So there is scope for autoguns to be used on the front lines by standard Guard regiments, but these examples are the minority because its a pain in the bum to supply them. If tehre is a particular need for the particular benefits of the autogun, they will be deployed, otherwise its a bit of a wash and you may as well take the easier option.

 Melissia wrote:
Lasweapons wouldn't cauterize to begin with. It would cause wounds that violently explode as blood gets superheated. Anything weak enough to merely cauterize isn't likely to kill someone.

they certainly would cauterize.

The at the instant of the hit, the surface of the target would become super heated under the intense energy. It would boil/vaporize/combust leaving behind a cloud of super heated gas. There would be no time for the heat in the target area to transfer to the surrounding tissue. There would be no explosion because the gas is not contained, the outside of the would would always be the most damaged/heated/vaporized while the material inside would recieve less light/energy/heat. This superheated gas would then cauterize the wound.

The superheated gas would also spread out and create a cloud of fog that would prevent you from seeing the target or shooting it with more laser weaponry.

Flinty wrote:So there is scope for autoguns to be used on the front lines by standard Guard regiments, but these examples are the minority because its a pain in the bum to supply them. If tehre is a particular need for the particular benefits of the autogun, they will be deployed, otherwise its a bit of a wash and you may as well take the easier option.

Well, the lasgun is noted for being the ONE standard that the Guard manages to enforce for everyone .. or at least tries to, as there are examples of regiments that had to make do with a smaller number of them, or didn't get any at all due to supply issues (leading to a regiment deploying with spears and bows - yay IG). This, however, would be an accident or mistake, rather than intention.

Perhaps noteworthy would be the use of cheaper heavy weapons in Siege regiments, though:

"Siege regiments are not expected to take part in mobile warfare, and so are not equipped with either transport vehicles, or the sophisticated man-portable heavy weapons used by Infantry and Armoured Fist regiments. Instead, Siege regiment infantry have to make do with crude machine guns that are commonly known as heavy stubbers. These are supplemented by large heavy weapon platforms which, while powerful, are by no means easy to move or deploy quickly. Fortunately ease of movement and deployment are not major concerns for Siege regiments. The most common such weapons used by Siege regiments are Rapier laser-destroyers and Thudd guns, but many other similar weapons are also used on occasion, such as the Tarantula weapon Platform and the Mole mortar."
- http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320009_Swordwind_Part_2_-_Imperial_&_Ork_forces.pdf

"Although at first glance similar to other Imperial Guard squads, the squads of the Siege regiments make extensive use of heavy stubbers. Although not as effective as autocannons or heavy bolters, they are cheap and easy to produce allowing Siege Infantry to be lavishly equipped with them.
- http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1101964&setLocale=en_AU

Exergy wrote:There would be no explosion because the gas is not contained, the outside of the would would always be the most damaged/heated/vaporized while the material inside would recieve less light/energy/heat.

Codex fluff describes both cauterisation as well as an explosion. The "containment" necessary for this effect is probably a result of the blood and flesh being boiled faster than it can vaporise on the localised impact site (the impact wound). Las beams do penetrate and cook the insides of the target, and with the human body being ~90% water ... well. POP!

Sure, it's not the same as being hit by a missile or a grenade with an explosive charge, but an explosion nonetheless.

I also don't think that the resulting mist would create huge smoke clouds. Surely, lasguns don't shear away that much from a body.

Much of this is a matter of interpretation, of course, but I'm fine with the idea of las weapons punching fist-sized holes into people, with the organic tissue being turned into a fine red mist visible for a second or two. At least I think it would look "cool".

 Hawky wrote:
I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

To be fair if we're going for this sort of thing what about boltguns working in space? I suppose they could have an oxygen tank to help fire the boltgun but still it's a little odd considering space marines are SPACE marines.

I have heard of at least one story with imperial guard in one of the black library books and near the end they talk about the orks with a warboss or weirdboy that had the power to shut down all their equipment. I guess it was like an EMP. Basically I heard they got overrun and destroyed. Kinda makes me wanna punch whoever wrote that but it is a little silly.

Also I wouldn't doubt necrons (or at least the previous necrons) or even the tau have some sort of weapon against electronics (emp grenades). Most likely the tau would have it. The old crons would just use the void dragon to screw over machines. Eldar probably would just use some sort of dimensional warp device to stop something like a tank that is probably very impractical but then it is 40k.

 Lynata wrote:

Exergy wrote:There would be no explosion because the gas is not contained, the outside of the would would always be the most damaged/heated/vaporized while the material inside would recieve less light/energy/heat.

Codex fluff describes both cauterisation as well as an explosion. The "containment" necessary for this effect is probably a result of the blood and flesh being boiled faster than it can vaporise on the localised impact site (the impact wound). Las beams do penetrate and cook the insides of the target, and with the human body being ~90% water ... well. POP!

Sure, it's not the same as being hit by a missile or a grenade with an explosive charge, but an explosion nonetheless.

I also don't think that the resulting mist would create huge smoke clouds. Surely, lasguns don't shear away that much from a body.

Much of this is a matter of interpretation, of course, but I'm fine with the idea of las weapons punching fist-sized holes into people, with the organic tissue being turned into a fine red mist visible for a second or two. At least I think it would look "cool".

If that is what the fluff says that is what the fluff says, we just need to ignore physics and move on. Even when flesh is exposed to a pure vaccuum, like in space, the skin can contain the blood from exploding.
Assuming you have such a high powered laser beam to heat the water up above boiling in a split second, it is still not going to cause the flesh to explode. The amount of heat going in is going to raise the non water bits to much higher temperatures, as they have lower specific heats and thus are likely to vaporize as well, not sticking around to contain the steam.

Also it wouldn't be a red cloud that would dissipate in a few seconds, it would be a huge grey cloud that would last several minutes. Converting a cubic ft of flesh, clothing and gear into gas would turn into a huge volume of gas. Assuming standard pressure and only increasing the temperature of water to boiling you are talking about 2000 cubic feet of gas, and that would require constant slow heating. If you wanted to vaporize that much material instantly much of it would have to be at a much higher temperature which would mean much more gas, 20,000 cubic feet easily.

The human body is also only 55-60% water. 90% and we would be puddles.


Heat is a pretty ineffective way to deal damage to a human body and most mechanical systems. It can wreck havoc on electronics though. Playing a game of toy soldiers in space with fantasy magic and monsters around, it is required to ignore physics a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

I have heard of at least one story with imperial guard in one of the black library books and near the end they talk about the orks with a warboss or weirdboy that had the power to shut down all their equipment. I guess it was like an EMP. Basically I heard they got overrun and destroyed. Kinda makes me wanna punch whoever wrote that but it is a little silly.

Also I wouldn't doubt necrons (or at least the previous necrons) or even the tau have some sort of weapon against electronics (emp grenades). Most likely the tau would have it. The old crons would just use the void dragon to screw over machines. Eldar probably would just use some sort of dimensional warp device to stop something like a tank that is probably very impractical but then it is 40k.

EMP is relatively easy to shield against. Installing a Faraday cage around everything isnt super difficult even in the super grimdark future of 40k.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

 marv335 wrote:
I'd put Las weaponry ahead as the better weapon.
Logistics wins battles.
Las weapons have a simpler logistics chain and need less resupply.

I could agree on part of that , however if mass amounts of soldiers are dying because their primary Weapon is ineffective against the enemy you are engaging then your logistics becomes more stressed from having to take many more casualties . Not saying an auto gun is going to instantly make supply chains less strained but it adds a different aspect

If the lasgun isn't killing it, your assault rifle ain't gonna kill it, either. Time to bring in the tanks or the Space Marines.

It wouldn't be to difficult to design a recoilless autogun, the US Military has been doing it since the 1960s.

A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

Well, the fluff of 40K has established that lascells last indefinitely, as long as there is an electrical or thermal source to recharge them (like, say, a local sun). So no "excitable gas" is required for their function. They shoot a condensed beam of light that bears both thermal and kinetic properties.

Any other "real science" concerns are discarded in the face of the data we are provided in the setting, because it is thusly established that the 40K universe does not function in line with our own.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, the fluff of 40K has established that lascells last indefinitely, as long as there is an electrical or thermal source to recharge them (like, say, a local sun). So no "excitable gas" is required for their function. They shoot a condensed beam of light that bears both thermal and kinetic properties.

Any other "real science" concerns are discarded in the face of the data we are provided in the setting, because it is thusly established that the 40K universe does not function in line with our own.

That's fine, meaning they aren't truly lasers per say. It's just easier to call them that as they appear that way to us (because a laser would also be invisible to the eye, unless there is sufficient moisture in the air, and we have loads of examples of them telling us people can see las 'bolts', which is impossible for a laser, which is a contiguous beam, or las beams in the fluff).

And of course the answer to the original question is the magic of radium rifles and their atomic bullets of death from ERB novels. Because that is how radium bullets work

However it is certainly a good topic I believe we can discuss -

But looking into the balances of it -
Is it possible that an auto gun would perform better in a rainforest enviroment as the solid projectile would not be affected by refraction and reflection that a las bolt would suffer . While rust would be a massive problem with both it would affect an auto gun more as the moisture would be enter more areas because of the larger amount of moving parts involved at the time .

So basically, what the IG really need is a waterproofing option...

In most cases, I'd stick with the lasgun. While rainy weather may cause severe range/accuracy difficulties, from the evidence we have, lasguns are an energy based weapon, and as such, they may be able to send a charge through water, and electrocute the target.

I have not much evidence to back this theory up, though.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

Also many of the things which supposedly make lasguns weak-- dust, dirt, rain, mist, etc-- would also make reflective armor weaker to lasguns.

Reflection isn't really a good way to defend against lasguns.

Hmm...

So the real question is, how can we rate the effectiveness of a lasgun in any given situation?

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
However it is certainly a good topic I believe we can discuss -

But looking into the balances of it -
Is it possible that an auto gun would perform better in a rainforest enviroment as the solid projectile would not be affected by refraction and reflection that a las bolt would suffer . While rust would be a massive problem with both it would affect an auto gun more as the moisture would be enter more areas because of the larger amount of moving parts involved at the time .

Most ballistic based guns would probably be made from composites or similar material that wouldn't rust. I would assume the same for lasguns. The concept that lasguns are infinitely more rugged would require some basically indestructible weapons.

http://www.stripes.com/news/after-30-years-the-marines-are-returning-to-the-colt-45-pistol-1.186159?localLinksEnabled=false
http://www.dlsports.com/underwater_handgun_shooting.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj5Kcs4dzro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6i3dtytmBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqL0dtIeTT8
and while not crazy about Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16

The colt .45, glocks, the ak-47, and others are pretty much indestructible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

Space Marines, and pretty much every other power armor in the fluff, is a ceramic composite material. It isn't really 'metal' per say. This is generally because you can make cheaper, more durable composite materials than all metal. Plus, being non ferrous, or at least being a composite/alloy, means you can design it to be immune to many things that would otherwise hurt 'metal' armor.

Also, many armies are particularly noted for a disdain of camo. They view it as beneath them, cowardly, not flamboyant enough, or other. This is so we as painters can use guys in day glow yellow body armor to look cool.

 Melissia wrote:
Also many of the things which supposedly make lasguns weak-- dust, dirt, rain, mist, etc-- would also make reflective armor weaker to lasguns.

Reflection isn't really a good way to defend against lasguns.

No dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in. Worse each hit on something would just create more dust, smoke, and mist. I have worked in the aerospace field and every time directed energy weapons are considered the comically easy ways they can be defeated are brought up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

If you dont want to use a reflective material you can instead go for something that smokes. As the shot comes and starts to vaporize it, it creates a dark, light absorbing smoke that hangs around and obscures the target. The laser cannot penetrate the smoke and instead just harmlessly makes the air hotter rather than heating up the target.

 Exergy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also many of the things which supposedly make lasguns weak-- dust, dirt, rain, mist, etc-- would also make reflective armor weaker to lasguns.

Reflection isn't really a good way to defend against lasguns.

No dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in. Worse each hit on something would just create more dust, smoke, and mist. I have worked in the aerospace field and every time directed energy weapons are considered the comically easy ways they can be defeated are brought up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

If you dont want to use a reflective material you can instead go for something that smokes. As the shot comes and starts to vaporize it, it creates a dark, light absorbing smoke that hangs around and obscures the target. The laser cannot penetrate the smoke and instead just harmlessly makes the air hotter rather than heating up the target.

And this, then, is probably why the only truly effective IG firepower comes from their vehicles/artillery/Orbital Bombardement etc.

It may be fairly safe to say that a seemingly infinitely-ammo'd lasgun is as much for morale purposes as it is for killing things.

Logistics also speaks to production, even though a las-gun would be considered a weapon it is certainly a highly advanced optical technology that would require significant tooling, failures in production would make the weapon useless or ineffective. An AK47 can be hammered out by a villiage blacksmith and used for generations with minimal maintenance. I have seen some old AK 47 in use. Ammo can be produced or reloaded locally. Since a bullet kills just as good as a laser it remains more cost effective.

I also disagree on the training aspect. Unless the lasgun utilizes a solid beam it would require significant training to use well. The "speed of light" and exact accuracy becomes a hinderance to an initiate user that still lacks breath and trigger control. If you don't believe me mount a laser on your favorite assault rifle/carbine and try to hold it steady on your target for several moments. You will note the "dot" moving quite a bit as your body tries to maintain your sight picture.

All this aside, lasers are really badass and awesome for sci-fi armies.

- J

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in.

And any of the above would also reduce the armor's reflectiveness, rendering it less and less effective.

Ablative armor such as flak is far more effective and reliable than reflective armor, with none of reflective armor's drawbacks.

 Melissia wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in.

And any of the above would also reduce the armor's reflectiveness, rendering it less and less effective.

Ablative armor such as flak is far more effective and reliable than reflective armor, with none of reflective armor's drawbacks.

Depends on what kind of "Flak armour" we mean.

Feral worlds versions of it could be just animal hide, the steel legion use metal plating, normal IG look like they use some kind of kevlar, and the DKOK just have dress uniforms and greatcoats.

 Selym wrote:
Depends on what kind of "Flak armour" we mean.

No. Flak Armor is a specific kind of armor that uses layers of ablative and impact absorbent materials.

Armor such as feral worlders' furs and the like aren't properly flak armor. Valhallan greatcoats are, because the coats are made out of the various materials I mentioned earlier. This, and any differences between the protective power of various styles of flak armor, isn't represented in tabletop because it's a d6 system and is incredibly imprecise.

 Selym wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in.

And any of the above would also reduce the armor's reflectiveness, rendering it less and less effective.

Ablative armor such as flak is far more effective and reliable than reflective armor, with none of reflective armor's drawbacks.

Depends on what kind of "Flak armour" we mean.

Feral worlds versions of it could be just animal hide, the steel legion use metal plating, normal IG look like they use some kind of kevlar, and the DKOK just have dress uniforms and greatcoats.

Well, if you believe some on here, IG Flak Armor is completely bullet proof, at least to modern ammo. I doubt a lot of animal hide is resistant to most modern bullets.

Regardless, I don't think lasgun is necessarily 'best', it is perhaps the 'most sci-fi' which is why IG have it (ERB first used 'ray guns' in his John Carter books with radium powered weapons. This spawned other 'ray guns' and this has become almost synonymous with Science Fiction). It's also a bit toned down from an 'atomic death ray gun' that was often prevalent.

I'd say, if you want your IG armed with 'ray guns' arm them with 'ray guns'. If you want futuristic assault rifles, go for futuristic assault rifles.

Actually the general consensus is that it's equivalent or slightly better than modern body armor in raw protection (and far better in terms of protection against energy weapons, because we don't use those in modern combat), but it has the advantage of being several times lighter and cheaper to produce.

I doubt a lot of animal hide is resistant to most modern bullets.

We have not yet traveled to other planets with indigenous life-forms to make that judgement.

 Lynata wrote:

Flinty wrote:So there is scope for autoguns to be used on the front lines by standard Guard regiments, but these examples are the minority because its a pain in the bum to supply them. If tehre is a particular need for the particular benefits of the autogun, they will be deployed, otherwise its a bit of a wash and you may as well take the easier option.

Well, the lasgun is noted for being the ONE standard that the Guard manages to enforce for everyone .. or at least tries to, as there are examples of regiments that had to make do with a smaller number of them, or didn't get any at all due to supply issues (leading to a regiment deploying with spears and bows - yay IG). This, however, would be an accident or mistake, rather than intention.

Several of the Abnett novels have teams of various sizes assigned slug throwers for specific missions. There have been single shot marksman rifles and drum mag equipped autoguns. Also its been stated before that PDF regiments are often deployed with autoguns. Its feasible that they could get elevated into Guard status and the aforesaid poor supply situation means they have to do with their autoguns until they can get the right guns. I'm not saying its common, just that its feasible.


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 flamingkillamajig wrote:

To be fair if we're going for this sort of thing what about boltguns working in space? I suppose they could have an oxygen tank to help fire the boltgun but still it's a little odd considering space marines are SPACE marines.

Modern bullets work in space and underwater. The oxygen required to detonate the propellant is bound chemically into the propellant. Detonation happens too quickly for the oxygen to come from the air anyway. Its just a really bad idea to fire a gun underwater as the resulting pressure wave will liquefy your organs...

Bolt rounds would also work in space as the rocket propellant will also have its own bound oxidiser. More of a problem would be the massive range of temperatures that the weapon would need to withstand between the middle of nowhere or in the shade leading to ambient temperatures of about 0K to being in full sunlight leading to massive heating, not to say the thermal change from when the marine goes from in the shade to direct sunlight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

Solid state lasers exist, and its generally implied this is the kind used in Las weapons.

 Melissia wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in.

And any of the above would also reduce the armor's reflectiveness, rendering it less and less effective.

Ablative armor such as flak is far more effective and reliable than reflective armor, with none of reflective armor's drawbacks.

dust in the air doesnt make a mirror any less reflective. Less light gets to the mirror but what does get there gets bounced back just the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 necrondog99 wrote:
Logistics also speaks to production, even though a las-gun would be considered a weapon it is certainly a highly advanced optical technology that would require significant tooling, failures in production would make the weapon useless or ineffective. An AK47 can be hammered out by a villiage blacksmith and used for generations with minimal maintenance. I have seen some old AK 47 in use. Ammo can be produced or reloaded locally. Since a bullet kills just as good as a laser it remains more cost effective.

Even assuming you could make a power pack that could contain that much energy and recharge itself just by being near heat(with no cold reservoir!) it would be a lot more effective and easier to use magnetic acceleration to push a kinetic projectile rather than convert the power into light and then try and hurt your enemy with heat. Heat is just so ineffective against metal and water, due to the amount required to raise it's tempurature.

Not this discussion again *sigh*
Exergy is pretty much spot on about everything so far. I have handles "real" lasers as well and know my physics.

Real world physics simply cast a very poor verdict on the lasgun so if you are a fan of that then do excuse everything with absurd scifi-fantasy-grimdark-magic.

The only logical answer to why the Imperium uses las weapons in such mass numbers is logistics and apparent ease of production and standarisation, that´s it.
Magical non-real fluff aside, lasers are far easier to protect one self from, do far less damage and are far more environment sensitive then normal kinetic weaponry...but you dont have to drag around heavy ammunition and a logistic train of ammo resupply behind you wherever you go due to the fabulous magical lasgun charge pack that all by itself would be such an incredible scientific achievement that it would rival titans, space ships and anti gravity, lol.

 Pyriel- wrote:
Not this discussion again *sigh*
Exergy is pretty much spot on about everything so far. I have handles "real" lasers as well and know my physics.

Real world physics simply cast a very poor verdict on the lasgun so if you are a fan of that then do excuse everything with absurd scifi-fantasy-grimdark-magic.

The only logical answer to why the Imperium uses las weapons in such mass numbers is logistics and apparent ease of production and standarisation, that´s it.
Magical non-real fluff aside, lasers are far easier to protect one self from, do far less damage and are far more environment sensitive then normal kinetic weaponry...but you dont have to drag around heavy ammunition and a logistic train of ammo resupply behind you wherever you go due to the fabulous magical lasgun charge pack that all by itself would be such an incredible scientific achievement that it would rival titans, space ships and anti gravity, lol.

Thanks.

However bad the real world physics are, I am happy to throw it to the wind in the name of cool. Lasers sound awesome. But having fluff discussions about it are really stretching the limit. It's like comparing psykic powers to projectile weapons. One we know about and can quantify the other is complete suspension of belief.

Yep.
Besides we are forgetting the whole ridicule of visible las "bolts". High energy EM radiation would actually be going far far beyond the UV range and be invisible to us.

Ship artillery in the form of EM pulses would probably be in the x-ray band but I shudder to think of the power sources needed to achieve that
Hell, half the crew would die of from radiation poisoning every time they fired one of unless half the ships mass came from freaking lead and that in itself leads us to another and even bigger technical problem...effective heat dispersion in vacuum. Talk about magical grim dark heat sinks.

Well the ships are many kilometers in length. Plenty of space for even non-magical heat sinks if you give them submarine levels of crampness.

Not to mention superspace technology, better methods of sinking heat.

Really all you need is a way to efficiently transfer the heat into radiative energy which can be dumped into space. Most novels featuring space battles show ships track each other by their heat signature, and they'd definitely have a big one. There could be an as yet unknown element which reacts to temperature by giving off some form of radiant energy. That would be one way of dumping heat.


As for actual power sources, the Imperium does have access to an alternate universe which is nothing but energy, and ships are powered by Warp Reactors. It could be that their ships are partially getting their energy from the Warp itself, with a safe and sanctioned way of course.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the ships are many kilometers in length. Plenty of space for even non-magical heat sinks if you give them submarine levels of crampness.

Not to mention superspace technology, better methods of sinking heat.

Really all you need is a way to efficiently transfer the heat into radiative energy which can be dumped into space. Most novels featuring space battles show ships track each other by their heat signature, and they'd definitely have a big one. There could be an as yet unknown element which reacts to temperature by giving off some form of radiant energy. That would be one way of dumping heat.


As for actual power sources, the Imperium does have access to an alternate universe which is nothing but energy, and ships are powered by Warp Reactors. It could be that their ships are partially getting their energy from the Warp itself, with a safe and sanctioned way of course.

It could also be that lasguns have a small fragment of warp energy, that just needs to be unlocked with a continuous charge from a battery.
If that is the case, this would explain why lasguns are capable of even existing, having visible bolts, and only requiring some sun-charged battery power to run.

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air doesnt make a mirror any less reflective.

Dust on a mirror does make a mirror less reflective.

I even have an exdperiment to prove it to you: take some mud and spread it on your mirror, and tell me if it's still reflecting as well.

Can do the same with dust or mist or any number of things. It's VERY easy to reduce the reflectiveness of a mirror.

Flak armor is way better and more reliable than any sort of reflective armor.

 Melissia wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air doesnt make a mirror any less reflective.

Dust on a mirror does make a mirror less reflective.

I even have an exdperiment to prove it to you: take some mud and spread it on your mirror, and tell me if it's still reflecting as well.

Can do the same with dust or mist or any number of things. It's VERY easy to reduce the reflectiveness of a mirror.

Flak armor is way better and more reliable than any sort of reflective armor.

In the air and on the mirror are completely different things.




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 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the ships are many kilometers in length. Plenty of space for even non-magical heat sinks if you give them submarine levels of crampness.

Not to mention superspace technology, better methods of sinking heat.

Really all you need is a way to efficiently transfer the heat into radiative energy which can be dumped into space. Most novels featuring space battles show ships track each other by their heat signature, and they'd definitely have a big one. There could be an as yet unknown element which reacts to temperature by giving off some form of radiant energy. That would be one way of dumping heat.

In space though, there is no where to dump your heat. Heat only propagates through a medium of matter. In a vaccuum there is not heat transfer. Hot things do radiate energy, they create light. So if you were generating lots of waste heat the only way to get rid of it would be to become a bright light.

 Exergy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air doesnt make a mirror any less reflective.

Dust on a mirror does make a mirror less reflective.

I even have an exdperiment to prove it to you: take some mud and spread it on your mirror, and tell me if it's still reflecting as well.

Can do the same with dust or mist or any number of things. It's VERY easy to reduce the reflectiveness of a mirror.

Flak armor is way better and more reliable than any sort of reflective armor.

In the air and on the mirror are completely different things.

But dust gets on the mirror from being thrown into the air, or by the mirror passing through particles/droplets on the way up or on the way down. Pedantry is all very good, but there are limits

exergy wrote wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the ships are many kilometers in length. Plenty of space for even non-magical heat sinks if you give them submarine levels of crampness.

Not to mention superspace technology, better methods of sinking heat.

Really all you need is a way to efficiently transfer the heat into radiative energy which can be dumped into space. Most novels featuring space battles show ships track each other by their heat signature, and they'd definitely have a big one. There could be an as yet unknown element which reacts to temperature by giving off some form of radiant energy. That would be one way of dumping heat.

In space though, there is no where to dump your heat. Heat only propagates through a medium of matter. In a vaccuum there is not heat transfer. Hot things do radiate energy, they create light. So if you were generating lots of waste heat the only way to get rid of it would be to become a bright light.

 Flinty wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
dust in the air doesnt make a mirror any less reflective.

Dust on a mirror does make a mirror less reflective.

I even have an exdperiment to prove it to you: take some mud and spread it on your mirror, and tell me if it's still reflecting as well.

Can do the same with dust or mist or any number of things. It's VERY easy to reduce the reflectiveness of a mirror.

Flak armor is way better and more reliable than any sort of reflective armor.

In the air and on the mirror are completely different things.

But dust gets on the mirror from being thrown into the air, or by the mirror passing through particles/droplets on the way up or on the way down. Pedantry is all very good, but there are limits

Sure some dust will settle on the surface. But in battlefield range, you are talking about going through 100-300 meters of dust/mist/smoke filled air, reducing the beam strength and then finally getting to the armor. You might lose 30-70% of the strength just going through some haze. A real battlefield full of smoke and kicked up dust and debris might reduce the strength 95% or more.

Dust/condensation on the armor might reduce its reflectiveness from 99% to 95% unless it is truely covered in mud. If it is still shiny in the least it is going to be over 90% reflective.
Are you suggesting the IG must first fire off mud cannons to make sure their lasguns can actually damage the enemy?

Or more likely, from 99% to close to 0%.

Whereas flak armor has no such restriction. It is effective regardless of the conditions on the battlefield.

I'm not arguing for a lasgun's efficacy here, but that reflective armor is not as good as you claim it to be; ablative armor is provably better in all but the most pristine circumstances.

Or to be more blunt, reflective armor is the Dragonskin of armor against directed energy weapons. It's only good in ideal laboratory conditions, not actually on the battlefield.

 Melissia wrote:
Or more likely, from 99% to close to 0%.

Whereas flak armor has no such restriction. It is effective regardless of the conditions on the battlefield.

I'm not arguing for a lasgun's efficacy here, but that reflective armor is not as good as you claim it to be; ablative armor is provably better in all but the most pristine circumstances.

Or to be more blunt, reflective armor is the Dragonskin of armor against directed energy weapons. It's only good in ideal laboratory conditions, not actually on the battlefield.

mylar weighs practically nothing. You could put it on the outside of anything making yourself virtually immune to laser weaponry. You would still have the flak armor, cermite armor or whatever else you normally have behind it. It isnt an either or type of thing.

The trade of is on visibility. obviously putting reflective film over your armor will make it easier to see you than sophisticated camoflague. Look at the armies in 40k, how many of them use camo? Not many.

 Exergy wrote:

Sure some dust will settle on the surface. But in battlefield range, you are talking about going through 100-300 meters of dust/mist/smoke filled air, reducing the beam strength and then finally getting to the armor. You might lose 30-70% of the strength just going through some haze. A real battlefield full of smoke and kicked up dust and debris might reduce the strength 95% or more.

Dust/condensation on the armor might reduce its reflectiveness from 99% to 95% unless it is truely covered in mud. If it is still shiny in the least it is going to be over 90% reflective.
Are you suggesting the IG must first fire off mud cannons to make sure their lasguns can actually damage the enemy?

The following is based on pictures and footage I've seen of real battlefields (ok, maybe except for the lunar bit...). I haven't made a particular study:
- Temperate battlefield - mud is a natural consequence of the kind of large explosions that put particles up in the air and of soldiers taking cover. If you're on rocks rather than earth then you've got the scratching effect of gravel rather than mud, but that would still affect the reflectivity of the surface
- Desert battlefield - sand and dust can become electrically charged and tends to stick to surfaces, replicating the effect of mud on surfaces. Sand will also scratch the surface affecting its reflectivity.
- Ice battlefield. this is probably the worst case for lasers as the stuff that might stick to the surface of the mirrored armour would be ice and snow, although mud and gravel would still be a problem
- Lunar battlefield - Moon dust is known to be a pain in the bum fro sticking to stuff and acting as an abrasive

From what I've seen of soldiers in real battlefield conditions, they get mucky really quickly



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Also unless a surface is 100% reflective then it would still absorb heat from the laser. If you're relying on a thin film of reflective material its still likely to ablate away before the full energy of the laser pulse has dissipated so you would still get energy leaking throguh to the target.

Oh for gawds sake...

The argument so far:

-Lasgun/autoguns technical specifications and related efficiencies

-lasgun = pew pew layzors, therefore it is really ineffective

-lasgun = sci-fi magic, is effective.

-lasgun = heat based damage, sometimes effective

-lasgun = exactly the same as sunlight, reflective armour is lasgun-proof

-dust = lasguns are useless

-dust = reflective armour is useless, lasgun still useful

-dust = both are useless, what was the point?

- [related circular arguments]

-reflective armour is capable of perfectly reflecting 99% of a lasgun's heat damage

-reflective armour is not capable of doing the above.

-this post.

Just so we all know where we are in this... thread.

Yes... but I joined a stupid on line forum so I could discuss stupid stuff on line. Keeps me from boring my wife to death with my BS. Works pretty good too.

/ Las-guns will never work. Look cool in movies tho. By the way the US Army has genuine directed energy weapons. Go "google" the "pain ray." Also check out the airborne defense laser. This stuff just doesn't translate to "man portable." I can actually see a crew served lascannon being useful - lasgun... NAH!

- J

 Pyriel- wrote:
Not this discussion again *sigh*
Exergy is pretty much spot on about everything so far. I have handles "real" lasers as well and know my physics.

Real world physics simply cast a very poor verdict on the lasgun so if you are a fan of that then do excuse everything with absurd scifi-fantasy-grimdark-magic.

The only logical answer to why the Imperium uses las weapons in such mass numbers is logistics and apparent ease of production and standarisation, that´s it.
Magical non-real fluff aside, lasers are far easier to protect one self from, do far less damage and are far more environment sensitive then normal kinetic weaponry...but you dont have to drag around heavy ammunition and a logistic train of ammo resupply behind you wherever you go due to the fabulous magical lasgun charge pack that all by itself would be such an incredible scientific achievement that it would rival titans, space ships and anti gravity, lol.

The Gods of Chaos laugh at your "physics". Laugh at them from their mountains of blood-spattered skulls/naked, sexy body-things/gross, squirmy plaguey things/crystallized dreams and hopes and thoughts.

Especially because we have, fairly recently, created lasers. The setting of 40k has an additional THIRTY-EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS to make them better. Think about that for a moment. Thirty-eight thousand years. That is more than four times the entire length of human civilization from its very beginnings to the modern era. We went from baking mud bricks in the sun and carving cuneiform characters on stone tablets to digital, globe-spanning communications and space exploration in only ten thousand years. Give ourselves four times that span? We're going to have some pretty nifty shiznit.

It's a sci-fi-fantasy game. The minute you try to bring real physics into the discussion is the minute you lose, because you are *required* to suspend your disbelief by the setting. This is not hard sci-fi. The creators are not physicists or engineers or anything of the sort... they are comic book fans, RPG players and fiction authors.

 necrondog99 wrote:
Yes... but I joined a stupid on line forum so I could discuss stupid stuff on line. Keeps me from boring my wife to death with my BS. Works pretty good too.

/ Las-guns will never work. Look cool in movies tho. By the way the US Army has genuine directed energy weapons. Go "google" the "pain ray." Also check out the airborne defense laser. This stuff just doesn't translate to "man portable." I can actually see a crew served lascannon being useful - lasgun... NAH!

Everything miniaturizes but I dont see laser weapons being cheaper or more effective at killing people at close range than kinetic weapons. Their primary advantage is speed to target and ability to track fast moving targets/engage multiple targets quickly. Both of these get much more important over long range, well beyond the range of standard infantry weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting side note:
Assuming all targets have the same reflectivity, around 30%

Water has a specific heat of 4.18J/gK so it takes over 4 Joules to heat 1 gram of water 1 degree K or C
Flesh is only mostly water and has a specific heat of 3.5 J/gk

Assuming bad things happen at boiling, and flesh starts at 30 degrees C, needing to get to 100 to boil it would take 245 Joules to vaporize one gram of flesh.
Steel has a specific heat of .466 so raising its temperature would be easier. You could however need to get it to a higher tempurature to get it to melt. dT= 1350. It requires 629 Joules to melt a gram of Steel.

But we all know steel is heavier than flesh, in fact it is 8 times more dense.

Assuming one of these Lasguns has the punch to put a whole in a man, all the way through the chest, say 20cm then it could also go through 1cm thick steel. 20cm of flesh isnt that much, most hand guns can do that with ease. Few can go through 1cm of steel plate. Another way, it could go through .2cm of steel plate and have virtually the same stopping power+molten steel would probably leak onto the inside of the armor.



Now one can argue you need not vaporize flesh to hurt someone, merely heating their flesh up would probably cause extreme discomfort but that is what the fluff says. The temperature band in which electronics work is very thin, you would not need to penetrate the armor to get to them, merely warming them would render a electrico-mechanical system useless



I am starting to think lasguns should be more like hot shot lasguns. Able to penetrate armor but not being very high strength.

 Exergy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Or more likely, from 99% to close to 0%.

Whereas flak armor has no such restriction. It is effective regardless of the conditions on the battlefield.

I'm not arguing for a lasgun's efficacy here, but that reflective armor is not as good as you claim it to be; ablative armor is provably better in all but the most pristine circumstances.

Or to be more blunt, reflective armor is the Dragonskin of armor against directed energy weapons. It's only good in ideal laboratory conditions, not actually on the battlefield.

mylar weighs practically nothing. You could put it on the outside of anything making yourself virtually immune to laser weaponry. You would still have the flak armor, cermite armor or whatever else you normally have behind it. It isnt an either or type of thing.

The trade of is on visibility. obviously putting reflective film over your armor will make it easier to see you than sophisticated camoflague. Look at the armies in 40k, how many of them use camo? Not many.

Excepting the fact that lasguns in 40K have both a thermal *and* a kinetic force. That mylar covering on your armor doesn't bounce the laser, it just melts as you get whacked with the white-hot baseball bat of force in the chest/shoulder/arm/leg/head/wherever you caught a round. It's not a "beam" of light, more like a bar or a bolt. It's more Star Wars blaster than Star Trek phaser... and does, also, somehow, create recoil, at least according to certain fluff.

 Exergy wrote:
mylar weighs practically nothing.

And it's quite easy to ruin its reflectivity and requires constant work to maintain it, especially in a place like a warzone.

Or to be more blunt, it's not worth it when it provides zero real benefit compared to just having thicker flak armor, which is not only better than reflective armor, it's also good against more than one kind of weapon. Reflective armor is pointless when there are better, cheaper armors out there which have fewer drawbacks.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Or more likely, from 99% to close to 0%.

Whereas flak armor has no such restriction. It is effective regardless of the conditions on the battlefield.

I'm not arguing for a lasgun's efficacy here, but that reflective armor is not as good as you claim it to be; ablative armor is provably better in all but the most pristine circumstances.

Or to be more blunt, reflective armor is the Dragonskin of armor against directed energy weapons. It's only good in ideal laboratory conditions, not actually on the battlefield.

mylar weighs practically nothing. You could put it on the outside of anything making yourself virtually immune to laser weaponry. You would still have the flak armor, cermite armor or whatever else you normally have behind it. It isnt an either or type of thing.

The trade of is on visibility. obviously putting reflective film over your armor will make it easier to see you than sophisticated camoflague. Look at the armies in 40k, how many of them use camo? Not many.

Excepting the fact that lasguns in 40K have both a thermal *and* a kinetic force. That mylar covering on your armor doesn't bounce the laser, it just melts as you get whacked with the white-hot baseball bat of force in the chest/shoulder/arm/leg/head/wherever you caught a round. It's not a "beam" of light, more like a bar or a bolt. It's more Star Wars blaster than Star Trek phaser... and does, also, somehow, create recoil, at least according to certain fluff.

Light conveys momentum. The sun has a solar wind constantly pushing things away from it. There are intersteller designs being thought of that use stationary lasers to push craft up to relativistic speeds.

It doesnt have much momuntum, but in the scale needed to vaporize a significant amount of flesh, it would probably kick a lot.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

Stopping Power
In 40k fluff it is suggested that lasguns have little to no recoil , and as per Newtons law stating that for each reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction , the "beam" from a lasgun is never portrayed as having any sort of stopping power in comparison to solid slug projectiles this could be a critical draw back when fighting enemies that in the face of any kinetic projectile would be stopped or at least slowed would simply shrug off las-fire . This is critical in that the basic trooper would get extra seconds needed (hopefully ) from a weapon that had physical "kick" to it rather then something that was a simply beam of light

That is not what stopping power means. By that logic, a lascannon also has no 'stopping power' due to the projectile (energy emissions) having negligible mass. Stopping power refers to the ability of a weapon to cause an injury that will incapacitate a target. Having a large section of flesh exploded from your body (depending on where you look in canon, this could extend to blowing off unprotected limbs in a single shot) is going to incapacitate anything that a bullet would. Orks would not at all be slowed by the weight of a bullet entering their bodies, unless the bullet was so extremely heavy or traveling so extremely fast (without just completely killing or penetrating the target) that it would provide enough force to physically stop an Ork in his tracks. Anything capable of doing this would not be an infantry weapon, and would be hard-pressed to slow a target without immediately popping them like a meat balloon (not that this is a bad thing). By your definition of 'stopping power', a good punch is more effective than being shot with a light pistol.

Armor Penetration -
ah the Famous downfall of the simply lasgun its lack of ability to pierce any armor , even that piece of leather worn by the creepy Slannash cultist ( joke )
regardless in fluff and in many books ( ill agree isn't exactly a consistant source ) Las-guns to posses the ability to slice though standard imperial Body armor its effect is greatly dimished when anyone decides they want to wear something with even a remote heat-dissipation ability this effect is greatly diminished and even in some cases almost entirely lost ( mainly looking at space marine adamantium and similar materials ) while an Autogun firing simple Steel Jacketed ammunition ( i personally have put a 7.62x54mm steel jacketed round though a 1.5 inch steel plate 9/10 times it penetrated ) would be much more capable of dealing with armor that was ballistically rated armor as well as heat rated armor - Mainly due to that when a ceramic plate ( for current body armor i can only assume that a similar standard would apply with futuristic armor and bullet propelants ) the impact from the round will most likely crack or shatter the plate rendering it ineffective , this is mainly solved by having multiple overlapping plates to disperse energy over a large area so the plates do not become over stressed and crack . Alot of my Argument will fall to the " Its science fiction " or " its 40k no reason here !! " However i can only speculate as to the different advantages and disadvantages at this time --- anyway back on track i do believe that the lasguns lack of ability to defeat very simple heat absorbent armor is its ultimate downfall here

Real-world ammunition is not a basis for comparison. No armour in 40k is 1.5 inch steel plate (something which a lasgun would have absolutely no problem penetrating ). Space Marine ceramite and adamantium would stop a lasgun shot, sure, but it equally nullifies autogun shots. Your argument that '"i personally have put a 7.62x54mm steel jacketed round though a 1.5 inch steel plate 9/10 times it penetrated" + 'lasguns suck against Space Marines' = autoguns are better' is inherently flawed. Space Marine armour is not 1.5 steel plate, nor is even the most lowly armour in the game. Also, the way you word your statements about lasguns speak of obvious bias - "when anyone decides they want to wear something with even a remote heat-dissipation ability this effect is diminished and even in some cases almost entirely lost". This is a weapon that can easily sever limbs. This is like me saying that real-world sniper rifles only work when people forget to wear a hat, just because I dislike them (or alternatively really like hats and wish to promote their ballistic-resistant properties).

Damage to Target ( high speculated ) -- So it is commonly accepted that a las-bolt when it strikes causes a mini-explosion as the liquid in the cells surrounding the impact site instantly boil from the head and explode causing a suprisingly large amount of damage - this would be awesome if the wound didn't mostly cauterize upon impact as well as leaving behind very little pain due to the fact that when the nerves are exposed to flash heat such as that , the die and are sealed before they can transmit any signals of pain to the brain . Further more the cauterizing effect also makes it impossible for the victim to bleed out enough to cause shock , where as the shock that does ensue will most likely be from the mental mindset and seeing the injury ,

That is a woefully inaccurate description of how cauterization, pain, and shock works.

this is all fine and dandy when fighting other humans but when engaging a foe that feels no pain or is on a combat "high " ( Orks ect ) the shock won't set in and lacking of bleeding caused by the wound will make it extremely unlikely to render such an opponent incapacitated by a las-shot . This brings up the point where Slugs from an Autogun would be prefered As when the slug hits , the round entering first would have an immediate entry wound afterward the round would ( usually) begin to tumble after the primary expansion in which case Fragments break off from the round , this causes massive internal hemorrhaging and after several rounds could very well incapacitate a larger opponent though blood loss , as the shot itself may not be felt by the victim they will not be able to ignore the fact that their blood is now pouring onto the ground . granted this process will be very different depending on the Size , strength , and endurance of varying opponents but at least its something compared to our auto-cauterizeing friend

Actually, this is so much not even wrong that I'm just going to leave this thread for my own sanity.

Water has a specific heat of 4.18J/gK so it takes over 4 Joules to heat 1 gram of water 1 degree K or C
Flesh is only mostly water and has a specific heat of 3.5 J/gk

Assuming bad things happen at boiling, and flesh starts at 30 degrees C, needing to get to 100 to boil it would take 245 Joules to vaporize one gram of flesh.
Steel has a specific heat of .466 so raising its temperature would be easier. You could however need to get it to a higher tempurature to get it to melt. dT= 1350. It requires 629 Joules to melt a gram of Steel.

Lasguns are measured in an energy unit referred to as a "megathule" (18 of them, if I remember my Uplifting Primer). What, exactly, a megathule is, though, is not provided. It is commonly believed, in threads like these, to mean a "mega-joule", but there's nothing to support that other than the fact that they sound the same.

 Psienesis wrote:

Water has a specific heat of 4.18J/gK so it takes over 4 Joules to heat 1 gram of water 1 degree K or C
Flesh is only mostly water and has a specific heat of 3.5 J/gk

Assuming bad things happen at boiling, and flesh starts at 30 degrees C, needing to get to 100 to boil it would take 245 Joules to vaporize one gram of flesh.
Steel has a specific heat of .466 so raising its temperature would be easier. You could however need to get it to a higher tempurature to get it to melt. dT= 1350. It requires 629 Joules to melt a gram of Steel.

Lasguns are measured in an energy unit referred to as a "megathule" (18 of them, if I remember my Uplifting Primer). What, exactly, a megathule is, though, is not provided. It is commonly believed, in threads like these, to mean a "mega-joule", but there's nothing to support that other than the fact that they sound the same.

I'm not looking at what a lasgun specifically produced. I was just going into a thought experiment about what a directed energy weapon would need to do to vaporize part of a target and then looking at the same amount of power against a steel plate. I found it interesting so I posted it.

I'm just sharing the information the studio provides to perhaps give you an idea of the technical specifications, with the added bit that there's no real-world translation for the metrics provided. Perhaps one could take average examples of what a lasgun is described as doing, and from that extrapolate how much energy it's putting out and further translate that into a joule rating or whatever.

Whoever that is, though, is going to have to be someone other than me, as I simply have ceased to give a gak.

burning/melting/vaporization as a damage mechanism for lasers is rather inefficient. A series of laser pulses delivered in a very small area (millimeters) and in a fast enough timeframe (micro to nano seconds) will cause small explosions that dig out craters in the material (The exact effect depends on the parameters of the beam and the nature of the material.) Amongst hard scifi circles this has been suggested as a means for a 'realistic' laser weapon, in fact, and it fits with the depiction of lasweapons in many sources (3rd and 6th editions, most notably) and has even been noted as being comparable energy wise to slugthrowers (although the nature of how bullets cause 'wounds' in target make actual comparisons a bit iffy, as many of the more severe damage mechanisms rely on tumbling and/or fragmentation of the bullet as much as projectile mass and velocity.)

I should note this is going to be a not very productive discussion in general unless some sort of commonalities or agreements are hammered out, as we have no real, hard information on how a hypothetical laser weapon would work (or if lasguns actually ARE lasers, which is a whole nother level of argument.) but there is lots of speculation and theory out there (and disagreement/variation on how it is regarded. Big shock amongst sci fi nerds.) So arguing 'what is' true is going to be fruitless unless there is clarification (although that leaves a whole slew of other things that can be argued over, like whether science can be applied to fiction, what sources are and aren't appropriate, divergence in interpretation of text, etc.)

you could use lasers as a heat ray, but due to poor penetration of most wavelenghts as I hear it most people would react in pain and move out of the way before your could heat up and inflict enough thermal damage (unless you use it like some sort of wide-beam laser flamethrower, at least. But most lasweapons tend to be much more localized than this and 'energy flamethrower' is more akin to a melta anyhow.)

Edit: Oh and body armor too. Very complicated as far as protection and resistance ratings and such go (shot placement matters a lot as to success and failure. and even then Manufacturers make explicit mention that no armor can guarantee perfect protection in every circumstance, so it seems very context-dependent.)

In space though, there is no where to dump your heat. Heat only propagates through a medium of matter. In a vaccuum there is not heat transfer. Hot things do radiate energy, they create light. So if you were generating lots of waste heat the only way to get rid of it would be to become a bright light.

Well space do transfer heat but very very slowly and in the form of EM radiation (that in itself might be totally invisible).
So no, people dont instant freeze if exposed to space like we see in movies, actually people or rather parts of them, boil but that is for another discussion..

Especially because we have, fairly recently, created lasers. The setting of 40k has an additional THIRTY-EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS to make them better. Think about that for a moment. Thirty-eight thousand years. That is more than four times the entire length of human civilization from its very beginnings to the modern era. We went from baking mud bricks in the sun and carving cuneiform characters on stone tablets to digital, globe-spanning communications and space exploration in only ten thousand years. Give ourselves four times that span? We're going to have some pretty nifty shiznit.

Sorry to spoil your fun but the laws of physics do not change. A laser is still a laser and will still be crappy in practical battlefield use on infantry level.

As for armour and mud well, it is highly situational. Lets say it starts to pour rain, all of a sudden the advancing infantry are shining and reflective.
Just put a reflective layer on top of your flak armour and you get the best of both worlds for practically no drawback.
If it is not practical then stuff heat absorbing ceramics into the flak and that´ll take care of laser radiation.

Excepting the fact that lasguns in 40K have both a thermal *and* a kinetic force. That mylar covering on your armor doesn't bounce the laser, it just melts as you get whacked with the white-hot baseball bat of force in the chest/shoulder/arm/leg/head/wherever you caught a round. It's not a "beam" of light, more like a bar or a bolt. It's more Star Wars blaster than Star Trek phaser... and does, also, somehow, create recoil, at least according to certain fluff.

Yes yes, twisting the laws of physics to fit your very own view and anything can be made to work.
do explain to us how it is that lasers in that future of yours are actually so slow that they are described as visible las bolts going back and forth like some starwars blaster.
I also love the "somehow" in your theory, guess you´ll use magic to explain that as well.

Lasguns are measured in an energy unit referred to as a "megathule" (18 of them, if I remember my Uplifting Primer). What, exactly, a megathule is, though, is not provided. It is commonly believed, in threads like these, to mean a "mega-joule", but there's nothing to support that other than the fact that they sound the same.

Think it said 17 or something. I also thought about this and if this indeed means mega joule then we have a problem. I would want to be anywhere near a rifle with a power pack containing that much energy, it´ll be like walking around with several bottles of high pressure gasoline strapped to your web on a battle field but I take it future lasgun packs are the absolute epitome of human technology if they can store these kind of energy levels as well as have the means of transferring it extremely fast and still be harmless if destroyed.

It also creates another problem in unreal capacitor technology but I guess they must have solved that one in the future.


I´m just glad that we are not discussing the technology and physics behind melta weapons

Sorry to spoil your fun but the laws of physics do not change. A laser is still a laser and will still be crappy in practical battlefield use on infantry level.

The laws of physics *do* change when the setting is science fiction and not functioning by any "real science" applicable in reality.

As I said previously, the Ruinous Powers say feth your physics, while they invert gravity and turn thoughts into individually sentient, malevolent beings.

Even outside of this, in 38,000 years of development, humanity may develop the metallurgy and power requirements to have a man-portable direct energy weapon that is capable of providing sustained kineto-thermal output that is lethal to a broad variety of humanoid (and otherwise) targets.

It would be the height of ignorant arrogance to pretend we know all there is to know about physics at this point in M3.

Yes yes, twisting the laws of physics to fit your very own view and anything can be made to work.
do explain to us how it is that lasers in that future of yours are actually so slow that they are described as visible las bolts going back and forth like some starwars blaster.
I also love the "somehow" in your theory, guess you´ll use magic to explain that as well.

Because that's how the books describe them as functioning. Don't like it? Take it up with Games Workshop.

I don't need to explain to you how it's done, because it's a standard in the setting that that is the manner in which they work. The "how" behind it is, frankly, irrelevant.

This isn't a discussion of making the Imperial Lasgun work IRL, but an examination of how they work in the setting.

Think it said 17 or something. I also thought about this and if this indeed means mega joule then we have a problem. I would want to be anywhere near a rifle with a power pack containing that much energy, it´ll be like walking around with several bottles of high pressure gasoline strapped to your web on a battle field but I take it future lasgun packs are the absolute epitome of human technology if they can store these kind of energy levels as well as have the means of transferring it extremely fast and still be harmless if destroyed.

The Imperium's science is just that tight.

How they did it, we'll never know. We do see, though, that they managed to do it.

I´m just glad that we are not discussing the technology and physics behind melta weapons

It's described as an energized beam of ionized particles that cause the targets to undergo rapid nuclear fusion.

 Psienesis wrote:

It's described as an energized beam of ionized particles that cause the targets to undergo rapid nuclear fusion.

Oh gak.

For the record, the reason why someone might boil in space is because boiling and freezing points (the temperature at which a material melts/solidifies, or boils/condenses), especially of materials that are liquid in room temperature, are effected by pressure. In space, there is no pressure.

This is why water boils at a lower temperature at the tops of mountains; similarly, this is how pressure cookers work, by letting water reach a higher temperature before boiling through high pressure. And of course, sublimation-- solid to gas-- requires a similar pressure/temperature trick.

Regardless, lasguns and flak armor are amazingly advanced weaponry compared to our timeframe. So meh.

 Pyriel- wrote:

In space though, there is no where to dump your heat. Heat only propagates through a medium of matter. In a vaccuum there is not heat transfer. Hot things do radiate energy, they create light. So if you were generating lots of waste heat the only way to get rid of it would be to become a bright light.

Well space do transfer heat but very very slowly and in the form of EM radiation (that in itself might be totally invisible).
So no, people dont instant freeze if exposed to space like we see in movies, actually people or rather parts of them, boil but that is for another discussion..

For me EM radiation is light, although not all is visible light.

The sun emits massive amounts of heat in the form of EM radiation. This is, obviously, a much more massive amount of radiation than the human body would produce. But it's still an example of heat being given off by an object in space.

Might as well dump this out from the 6th edition rulebook, since it is (to my knowledge) the most detailed depiction of how lasweapons work (moreso than 3rd anyhow) outside of non-GW materials (and I don't want ot bring those in because things will degenerate into arguing over whose sources are better. This discussion doesn't need more complication.

6th ed. rulebook wrote:lasweapons do not fire a projectile or slug, but instead project a brief, high-energy pulse.This beam can range greatly in strength, depending on the size of the las-weapon and the rating of its power source.
...
A las-pulse will shear through flesh producing a cauterised hole surrounded by blister-burns. when first striking flesh, a las-pulse will cause a flash-burn effect upon impact, as the heat of the discharge causes the immediate surface area of the target to be vaporised. This can, to the untrained eye, take on the same wound aspects as those produced by high density explosives, but there are major differences when it cornes to field dressing las-wounds. While the brief exploding flash of initial contact is hlghly visible, it is rarely the major concern of aid givers. It is typically the continuing projection of the las-beam boring into the body that causes the most extensive damage - the beam will puncture through any internal organs and is capable of severing limbs.

And discussion of treatment:

6th edition rulebook wrote:Do not treat until you have ensured the victim is removed from the source. Las-weapons produce a narrow amplified beam of light. Most often this is a short burst, however, should the shaft be ongoing and still present, it is dangerous to approach.
..
Identify the impact site and determine the extent of the flash burn. Lift away any clothing covering the burnt area, without pulling material over the burns. Leave in place any material that has been seared into the burn area. If the victim is wearing arrnour, be aware that some materials absorb heat, leaving the area dangerous to touch. In a hazardous environment (such as chem-zones, radsites, or other such dangerous areas) do not cut away any protective covering - apply the dressing directly over it.
...
Find the penetration level of the beam. Has the beam passed through the victim causing an exit wound? It is best to check as soon as possible. The extreme heat cauterizes the wound, leaving minimum bleeding, however, rapid swelling will begin around the area almost immediately, making later diagnosis more difficult. If the las-wound is only a glancing hit, in a limb, or shows no signs of striking a vital organ, proceed with Field Dressing Type I. If you suspect the las-wound has penetrated a vital organ, go straight to Type II.

This doesn't seem to be describing a continuous (wave) laser (EG heat ray) but more a pulsed laser of vaguely defined parameters (number of pulses, pulse energy, etc.) But there is nothing, to my knowledge, expressly wrong with the description.


This would be the only other obvious 'example' of lasguns in action (at least a quantifiable one that wasn't from novels) which was from the old Rogue Trader Compendium:

As the stones pattered to the ground, a Deathlight flashed the stunted bushes itno flame. Tarok sprang up and fired at the Brannath who had just given away his position. The man fell forward out of the bushes with a fist-wide, smoking hole punched through his body from front to back. Strange, thought Tarok, that there is no blood.

That thought almost cost him his life. He almost failed to notice the shadow sliding over the rocks behind and right of him. The rock glowed and began to melt as he dived away from the beam of the Deathlight. The Brannath was not quick enough with his second shot.

Then, on all sides of him, the air was shot through with the deadly bright rods of soldier-lightning.

...

They were watching through their magic, he knew - the same magic that made the Deathlight spit its soldier-lightning.

Whilst it doesn't explicitly say its a lasgun, I think its safe to say that its in the Imperial Army listing so its probably referring to Imperial Army lasguns. (the old ones without the stocks and with ranges worse than modern ARs by the Rogue Trader explanation provided for the in-game distances.) Do note as well that it did imply lasweapons were thermal weapons (at least enough with sustained fire to melt the rock, although the specifics are unsurprisingly vague.) rather than pulverizing it.

 Psienesis wrote:

Sorry to spoil your fun but the laws of physics do not change. A laser is still a laser and will still be crappy in practical battlefield use on infantry level.

Even outside of this, in 38,000 years of development, humanity may develop the metallurgy and power requirements to have a man-portable direct energy weapon that is capable of providing sustained kineto-thermal output that is lethal to a broad variety of humanoid (and otherwise) targets.

It would be the height of ignorant arrogance to pretend we know all there is to know about physics at this point in M3.

In the 41st millenium there are still men and one would assume that they are still just as vulnerable to projectile weapons as they are now. One would also assume they are still just heat based weapons as they are now.

The amount of energy that seems to be required to vaporize a few kilogram of flesh on a man seems to be 1,000,000 joules. Compare this to the energy in a fairly large rifle at 2,000 joules. Maybe that doesnt seem that large, only a factor of 500 but the energy of a car moving at 60mph is only 500,000 joules, so each lasgun shot is essentially twice as powerful as launching a 1500kg projectile at 60mph at someone. Yet it only vaporizes a small amount of flesh.
It seems to me if technology got better and you could harness and carry that amount of energy, you would still want to use projectiles, really big, really fast projectiles.


Additions to physics are undoubtably going to be made in the next 38,000 years yet they will be additions. It is unlikely you will be able to throw out the first law of thermodynamics. If you could, there wouldnt be much reason to have an empire or to value resources and no one want ever want for material.

Again that assumes your laser weapon is only a CW/heat ray type. Pulsed lasers can and do exist, and it seems to be possible to cause them to generate small explosions and 'drill' the target if you utilise the right parameters. Relying on mechanical damage effects drastically reduces the energy requirements to inflict injury. As I said people have proposed examples of this and posted how it would work. Which is, to my knowledge the closest we get to actual 'research' on laser weapons unless you want ot extrapolate from medical lasers and such (which is sort of relevant but not quite.)

Some sources depict them as CW/heat ray types but others seem to go with a pulsed laser.

Edit: Also I get queasy when people start doing 'comparisons' like to cars and stuff because physical collisons and projectiles are alot more complex than just the energy involved (momentum and all that.) I've had some nightmare discussions where people claim lasguns can penetrate tanks simply because the megawatt/joule lasgun calcs are equated to tank guns. :(

 Melissia wrote:
The sun emits massive amounts of heat in the form of EM radiation. This is, obviously, a much more massive amount of radiation than the human body would produce. But it's still an example of heat being given off by an object in space.

clearly we are all in agreement that energy is being transferred from the sun to earth, and many other places, by EM radiation or light. What is not happening is the matter in the sun, being hot, warming the matter on earth through convection.

The heat from guns, engines, people, most things we think of is transferred to surrounding matter and thus those things are cooled by convection. Hot things on earth do radiate, firing a machine gun for several minutes or running an engine without coolant and the metal will turn bright as it radiates energy, but most of the energy is converted by air/other matter.

A space ship has no matter around it, it is in a vaccuum. The only way it can lose heat is to radiate it away, making cooling more difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Connor MacLeod wrote:


Edit: Also I get queasy when people start doing 'comparisons' like to cars and stuff because physical collisons and projectiles are alot more complex than just the energy involved (momentum and all that.) I've had some nightmare discussions where people claim lasguns can penetrate tanks simply because the megawatt/joule lasgun calcs are equated to tank guns. :(

Sure the type of projectile, mass, and speed all make a big difference. The M1A1 kinetic energy penetrators have a muzzle energy of 20,000,000 joules. It still makes a huge difference whether they are made out of pressed tungsten(ductile) or depleted uranium(brittle)

 Selym wrote:

It could also be that lasguns have a small fragment of warp energy, that just needs to be unlocked with a continuous charge from a battery.
If that is the case, this would explain why lasguns are capable of even existing, having visible bolts, and only requiring some sun-charged battery power to run.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Again that assumes your laser weapon is only a CW/heat ray type. Pulsed lasers can and do exist, and it seems to be possible to cause them to generate small explosions and 'drill' the target if you utilise the right parameters. Relying on mechanical damage effects drastically reduces the energy requirements to inflict injury. As I said people have proposed examples of this and posted how it would work. Which is, to my knowledge the closest we get to actual 'research' on laser weapons unless you want ot extrapolate from medical lasers and such (which is sort of relevant but not quite.)

All that pulsing the laser does is allow you to do the same damage by shooting with a less weaker laser as you could with a stronger laser. Right now getting a laser of sufficient power is extremely difficult. In 38,000 years I imagine that getting one powerful enough wouldnt be an issue. The energy requirement is going to be the same whether you are using 5 smaller pulses or 1 strong blast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Selym wrote:

It could also be that lasguns have a small fragment of warp energy, that just needs to be unlocked with a continuous charge from a battery.
If that is the case, this would explain why lasguns are capable of even existing, having visible bolts, and only requiring some sun-charged battery power to run.

so lasguns are concentrated Chaos gods. I guess we know why the Sisters of Battle don't use them.

 Exergy wrote:

A space ship has no matter around it, it is in a vaccuum. The only way it can lose heat is to radiate it away, making cooling more difficult.

Or by dumping hot material, e.g. sacrificial coolant fluid.

 Exergy wrote:

All that pulsing the laser does is allow you to do the same damage by shooting with a less weaker laser as you could with a stronger laser. Right now getting a laser of sufficient power is extremely difficult. In 38,000 years I imagine that getting one powerful enough wouldnt be an issue. The energy requirement is going to be the same whether you are using 5 smaller pulses or 1 strong blast.

Why do you say that? Timeframe has a huge impact on the effect in the context of what I am talking about because I'm mentioning explosive effects. We're literally talking the difference between TNT and gunpowder here. Deliver enough energy in a small enough volume in a fast enough timeframe, and you can make an explosion that can punch a crater in the target. Repeat it as many times as needed to make the hole you want through the target. This is impossible with current technology AFAIK (and certainly not in a man portable package like the lasgun) but it is not implausible either, because what I described is basically how chemical and nuclear explosions work.

Also: Do not assume this is a 'I'm right you're wrong' type of post. What you said re: lasers that operate mostly or purely by thermal effects is, as far as I know, more or less completely true (the sites I linked to even make similar arguments re: inefficiency of thermal laser vs bullet.) Its just a bit more complicated than 'lasers only burn through target and nothing else.' that's all. Especially since the method described is consistent with the aforementioned descriptions of lasweapons.

my old IG codex says they are armed with lasguns/autoguns.


there fore, both are equal.


in the 40k verse, las has better logistics, kinetic does more damage.
which makes me wonder why I can take auto cannons and heavy bolters in IG squads, but not multi lasers... surely the IG logistics would dictate more multi lasers if it was such an issue?

also, any battery will decrease in charge over time, where as catridages can be stored for 100's of years with little/no degredation.

I could see the focal mirrors and such being more delicate too.


personally i converted lots of my guard to have auto guns as well, mainly cause it looks cooler, and causes them to roll better!

god i wish I could still get the necromunda pattern auto gun on sprues....

 Flinty wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

A space ship has no matter around it, it is in a vaccuum. The only way it can lose heat is to radiate it away, making cooling more difficult.

Or by dumping hot material, e.g. sacrificial coolant fluid.

true!
reject a ton of heat into a reservoir with a refrigeration cycle and then dump the coolant.

Still you would then need to carry around a fair amount of coolant.

 easysauce wrote:

also, any battery will decrease in charge over time, where as catridages can be stored for 100's of years with little/no degredation.

Explosives degrade over time, while lasgun cells could easily be stored discharged and only charged when needed and issued to troops. Given they are supposed to have integrated charging circuits, they will self charge as long as they are being used so any short term storage losses will be topped up automatically.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

All that pulsing the laser does is allow you to do the same damage by shooting with a less weaker laser as you could with a stronger laser. Right now getting a laser of sufficient power is extremely difficult. In 38,000 years I imagine that getting one powerful enough wouldnt be an issue. The energy requirement is going to be the same whether you are using 5 smaller pulses or 1 strong blast.

Why do you say that? Timeframe has a huge impact on the effect in the context of what I am talking about because I'm mentioning explosive effects. We're literally talking the difference between TNT and gunpowder here. Deliver enough energy in a small enough volume in a fast enough timeframe, and you can make an explosion that can punch a crater in the target. Repeat it as many times as needed to make the hole you want through the target. This is impossible with current technology AFAIK (and certainly not in a man portable package like the lasgun) but it is not implausible either, because what I described is basically how chemical and nuclear explosions work.

Also: Do not assume this is a 'I'm right you're wrong' type of post. What you said re: lasers that operate mostly or purely by thermal effects is, as far as I know, more or less completely true (the sites I linked to even make similar arguments re: inefficiency of thermal laser vs bullet.) Its just a bit more complicated than 'lasers only burn through target and nothing else.' that's all. Especially since the method described is consistent with the aforementioned descriptions of lasweapons.

My understanding is you pulse the laser to keep the vaporizing material from getting in the way of the beam.

So if you have a laser of X strength you deliver it in a pulse of Y time that is sufficient to vaporize(explode if you will) a piece of material. You then wait some time between pulses to let the vapor get out of the way and then hit it again with another pulse of X strength over Y time to dig deeper.
Without the pause between the pulses the vaporization from the first pulse disrupts the light from the second pulse. So X strength over 2Y time does not work.

What I am saying is why not use a laser with 2X strength over Y time. Right now getting a laser of higher power is difficult, but one would assume that in 38,000 years they would have figured this out.

The energy required for 2X strength over Y time and X strength over 2Y time is the same.

Nothing about nuclear or chemical explosions involves pulsing. If you want more destruction it is also better to use the higher power setting rather than the lower power setting repeatedly.


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 Flinty wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

also, any battery will decrease in charge over time, where as catridages can be stored for 100's of years with little/no degredation.

Explosives degrade over time, while lasgun cells could easily be stored discharged and only charged when needed and issued to troops. Given they are supposed to have integrated charging circuits, they will self charge as long as they are being used so any short term storage losses will be topped up automatically.

Batteries degrade over time whether charged or uncharged.

I would however not venture to say in 38,000 years which would degrade faster. 40k chemical propellants or 40k chemical batteries. As there are relics in 40k that have been working since ~25k I would venture to say that the longevity of most things has gone way way up.

 Exergy wrote:

My understanding is you pulse the laser to keep the vaporizing material from getting in the way of the beam.

So if you have a laser of X strength you deliver it in a pulse of Y time that is sufficient to vaporize(explode if you will) a piece of material. You then wait some time between pulses to let the vapor get out of the way and then hit it again with another pulse of X strength over Y time to dig deeper.
Without the pause between the pulses the vaporization from the first pulse disrupts the light from the second pulse. So X strength over 2Y time does not work.

What I am saying is why not use a laser with 2X strength over Y time. Right now getting a laser of higher power is difficult, but one would assume that in 38,000 years they would have figured this out.

The energy required for 2X strength over Y time and X strength over 2Y time is the same.

Nothing about nuclear or chemical explosions involves pulsing. If you want more destruction it is also better to use the higher power setting rather than the lower power setting repeatedly.

Yes, you need a delay between pulses to let the vapor/plasma dissipate before the next pulse or it will absorb the energy of the next shot preventing further damage. But its more complicated than that. You have a total number of pulses in a 'shot', and you have a overall timeframe (to deliver all the pulses.) You also have a delay between pulses. Your 'equation' such as it is does not account for that. Moreover I have no clue what sort of assumptions regarding timeframe and how you're defining 'strength' simpyl saying 'energy' doesn't help much because its not addressing the damage mechanism.

In the case of the links I cited, you usually get tens or hundreds of pulses (although aspect ratio seems to dictate that smaller numbers of pulses are more likely to work than large numbers) delivered over a microsecond/nanosecond pulse duration (Depending on source) with something like a 1-10 microsecond delay between pulses (again depending on source). and all the pulses are delivered in a few milliseconds tops. What is described there does not even seem to remotely apply to your 'equation'. If you're assumign these 'pulses' are actually being delivered over multiple seconds... I'm confused why you would think that, since that's not what the sources I linked to even remotely describe. 'pulse' and 'shot' in that context are not even remotely the same thing.

Speaking of starships, I believe it is noted in the "Rocks Cost Money" article that the fuel of the various Imperial vessels is hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) or "dihydride dioxide" or some such spelled-out nomenclature.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

My understanding is you pulse the laser to keep the vaporizing material from getting in the way of the beam.

So if you have a laser of X strength you deliver it in a pulse of Y time that is sufficient to vaporize(explode if you will) a piece of material. You then wait some time between pulses to let the vapor get out of the way and then hit it again with another pulse of X strength over Y time to dig deeper.
Without the pause between the pulses the vaporization from the first pulse disrupts the light from the second pulse. So X strength over 2Y time does not work.

What I am saying is why not use a laser with 2X strength over Y time. Right now getting a laser of higher power is difficult, but one would assume that in 38,000 years they would have figured this out.

The energy required for 2X strength over Y time and X strength over 2Y time is the same.

Nothing about nuclear or chemical explosions involves pulsing. If you want more destruction it is also better to use the higher power setting rather than the lower power setting repeatedly.

Yes, you need a delay between pulses to let the vapor/plasma dissipate before the next pulse or it will absorb the energy of the next shot preventing further damage. But its more complicated than that. You have a total number of pulses in a 'shot', and you have a overall timeframe (to deliver all the pulses.) You also have a delay between pulses. Your 'equation' such as it is does not account for that. Moreover I have no clue what sort of assumptions regarding timeframe and how you're defining 'strength' simpyl saying 'energy' doesn't help much because its not addressing the damage mechanism.

In the case of the links I cited, you usually get tens or hundreds of pulses (although aspect ratio seems to dictate that smaller numbers of pulses are more likely to work than large numbers) delivered over a microsecond/nanosecond pulse duration (Depending on source) with something like a 1-10 microsecond delay between pulses (again depending on source). and all the pulses are delivered in a few milliseconds tops. What is described there does not even seem to remotely apply to your 'equation'. If you're assumign these 'pulses' are actually being delivered over multiple seconds... I'm confused why you would think that, since that's not what the sources I linked to even remotely describe. 'pulse' and 'shot' in that context are not even remotely the same thing.

I'm not thinking seconds, a total shot would need to be at least in miliseconds or things would. A nanosecond is a ludicrously small amount of time at which even light appears slow.

The amount of energy required to vaporize(you say explode) some material is still the same, regardless of what timescale you use.

If you want to boil a liter of water on the stove, it takes some amount of time based on how hot your burner is. If it is really really hot you can boil it all in a micro second. But pulsing the burner on and off is not going to boil the water faster and it certainly will not decrease the total amount of energy to boil the water.

I am will to consider a dirac laser that can switch on instantly, deliver an an immeasurably amount of energy to a target, and then turn off. They don't currently exist but one day they might. Say you have one that is capable of delivering 1,000,000 joules per nanosecond. I dont see how pulsing it into 10 bursts of 100,000 joules or 100 bursts of 10,000 joules with any wait time is going to vaporize any more material. Maybe you could drill deeper, but you still are not going to vaporize any additional material.

 Exergy wrote:

I'm not thinking seconds, a total shot would need to be at least in miliseconds or things would. A nanosecond is a ludicrously small amount of time at which even light appears slow.

So? lasers can operate on femtosecond scales (for medical use), so I don't think operating on nanosecond/microsecond timeframes is problematic. This is simply the duration in which the energy is delivered in order to simulate high explosive effects (again energy vaporizing matter in small area in very small period of time, to simulate explosion.

The amount of energy required to vaporize(you say explode) some material is still the same, regardless of what timescale you use.

Yes. But the difference is relying on other damage mechanisms than simply burning stuff.

If you want to boil a liter of water on the stove, it takes some amount of time based on how hot your burner is. If it is really really hot you can boil it all in a micro second. But pulsing the burner on and off is not going to boil the water faster and it certainly will not decrease the total amount of energy to boil the water.

But the point of the pulsing is not to boil huge quantitites of water in the pot in a short timeframe. Its to vaporize a very small portion of it very rapidly, so that it creates a fast, violent expansion of gases that we call an 'explosion'. A sufficiently violent enough explosion will do plenty of damage without being super-energetic. Again this isn't about primarily thermal damage mechanisms.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

I'm not thinking seconds, a total shot would need to be at least in miliseconds or things would. A nanosecond is a ludicrously small amount of time at which even light appears slow.

So? lasers can operate on femtosecond scales (for medical use), so I don't think operating on nanosecond/microsecond timeframes is problematic. This is simply the duration in which the energy is delivered in order to simulate high explosive effects (again energy vaporizing matter in small area in very small period of time, to simulate explosion.

The amount of energy required to vaporize(you say explode) some material is still the same, regardless of what timescale you use.

Yes. But the difference is relying on other damage mechanisms than simply burning stuff.

If you want to boil a liter of water on the stove, it takes some amount of time based on how hot your burner is. If it is really really hot you can boil it all in a micro second. But pulsing the burner on and off is not going to boil the water faster and it certainly will not decrease the total amount of energy to boil the water.

But the point of the pulsing is not to boil huge quantitites of water in the pot in a short timeframe. Its to vaporize a very small portion of it very rapidly, so that it creates a fast, violent expansion of gases that we call an 'explosion'. A sufficiently violent enough explosion will do plenty of damage without being super-energetic. Again this isn't about primarily thermal damage mechanisms.

I have never been arguing damage mechanism. The fluff says large hole due to vaporization, so I have been going from that.

A weapon that instead of vaporizing a large chunk instead just raises the body tempurature from 37 to 45 would incapacitate and likely kill any human. There have been a few people who have survived body temp above 45, but most die rather quickly.

The laws of physics *do* change when the setting is science fiction and not functioning by any "real science" applicable in reality.

No, then they are not laws of physics but laws of magic that you conveniently can bend and skew in order to fit your viewpoint.

Even outside of this, in 38,000 years of development, humanity may develop the metallurgy and power requirements to have a man-portable direct energy weapon that is capable of providing sustained kineto-thermal output that is lethal to a broad variety of humanoid (and otherwise) targets.

It would be the height of ignorant arrogance to pretend we know all there is to know about physics at this point in M3.

True but they would still have to follow basic laws of nature.
We can invent all we want in metallurgy etc but said inventions will still have to follow things like basic thermodynamics.

The point is either we talk about physics or this entire discussion is null and void since everyone can run of and excuse precisely whatever they want with warp and magic.
By the way, I did not know imperial tech like a lasgun and its power pack used warp sorcery to circumvent basic laws of nature.

Because that's how the books describe them as functioning. Don't like it? Take it up with Games Workshop.

I don't need to explain to you how it's done, because it's a standard in the setting that that is the manner in which they work. The "how" behind it is, frankly, irrelevant.

This isn't a discussion of making the Imperial Lasgun work IRL, but an examination of how they work in the setting.

By your own definition your argument is flawed.
The reason for that is that your so called settings are not singular. One settings lasguns are described as beams, another as visible bolts etc etc. We cant have a discussion based on "pick-your-version-of-the-magic" and thus all that remains is simple, singular laws of physics.

The question remains: Would a laser rifle or a kinetic rifle be better...nowhere does it say pick your setting or bring in warp sorcery.

The Imperium's science is just that tight.

How they did it, we'll never know. We do see, though, that they managed to do it.

lol
You really dont get what 17 megajoule means do you
And you talked about arrogance...

It's described as an energized beam of ionized particles that cause the targets to undergo rapid nuclear fusion.

...in what setting? lol
I guess there is another one where faulty ork "meltas" use ork collective psychic sorcerous thingies in order to make rusty crap work.
lol

For the record, the reason why someone might boil in space is because boiling and freezing points (the temperature at which a material melts/solidifies, or boils/condenses), especially of materials that are liquid in room temperature, are effected by pressure. In space, there is no pressure.

Shhh, dont spoil the fun. I was waiting for psiensis to barge in with some magical setting picked from just the right novel in order to excuse some weird sorcerous super technology abomination

For me EM radiation is light, although not all is visible light.

Ah, well we ought to clarify for future references then as it is an extremely broad spectra beyond "just" visible light.

Might as well dump this out from the 6th edition rulebook, since it is (to my knowledge) the most detailed depiction of how lasweapons work (moreso than 3rd anyhow) outside of non-GW materials (and I don't want ot bring those in because things will degenerate into arguing over whose sources are better. This discussion doesn't need more complication.

6th ed. rulebook wrote:
lasweapons do not fire a projectile or slug, but instead project a brief, high-energy pulse.This beam can range greatly in strength, depending on the size of the las-weapon and the rating of its power source.

lol
And there goes the slow starwars bolt theory
As said, it depends on what fluff you pick from, we have white lasers (eldar) the very same but black lasers (dark eldar) etc etc...

All that pulsing the laser does is allow you to do the same damage by shooting with a less weaker laser as you could with a stronger laser. Right now getting a laser of sufficient power is extremely difficult. In 38,000 years I imagine that getting one powerful enough wouldnt be an issue. The energy requirement is going to be the same whether you are using 5 smaller pulses or 1 strong blast.

The secret would mostly lie in the future capacitors.

in the 40k verse, las has better logistics, kinetic does more damage.
which makes me wonder why I can take auto cannons and heavy bolters in IG squads, but not multi lasers... surely the IG logistics would dictate more multi lasers if it was such an issue?

Simple: Tech degrading. They can make lasguns with ease but not multi lasers. They can make space ships but not antigrav jetbikes, they can make advanced neuro linked power armour and psychic weaponry but not a freaking auto stabilizer allowing a simple WW1 tank to shoot on the move...

It´s all so incredibly ridiculous that it borders on the laughable.

Speaking of starships, I believe it is noted in the "Rocks Cost Money" article that the fuel of the various Imperial vessels is hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) or "dihydride dioxide" or some such spelled-out nomenclature.

Could I use your own argument to disprove you by saying that in one novel they are actually using He3 as fuel?
Or am I not allowed to pick and choose my own settings to bring in magical, warp, tech, sorcery, setting?

The point is either we talk about physics or this entire discussion is null and void since everyone can run of and excuse precisely whatever they want with warp and magic.
By the way, I did not know imperial tech like a lasgun and its power pack used warp sorcery to circumvent basic laws of nature.

Yep.

Apparently it does, because that's how it works in the setting.

So, yes, discussions such as these are, as I mentioned before, possibly ITT or the last time this came up, a matter of choosing what fluff you want to go with. There's no consensus within the published materials. We didn't need you to be a condescending donkey-cave to point that out.

You really dont get what 17 megajoule means do you

It's not provided, in-setting, as a "megajoule". In-setting, we are given "mega-thule". What's a mega-thule? We don't know. It's a fictional unit of measurement.

It *could* be a mega-joule translated into a similar word... but that is not established fact.

For all we know, a thule is five mega-joules, so we have a laspack providing just insane levels of juice. We'll never know until GW explains what a mega-thule is and provides a real-world equivalent.

By your own definition your argument is flawed.
The reason for that is that your so called settings are not singular. One settings lasguns are described as beams, another as visible bolts etc etc. We cant have a discussion based on "pick-your-version-of-the-magic" and thus all that remains is simple, singular laws of physics.

The question remains: Would a laser rifle or a kinetic rifle be better...nowhere does it say pick your setting or bring in warp sorcery.

That's how it works in 40K. None of the products line up perfectly. Products from two different sources (like GW and Black Library) aren't even *intended* to line up. If you're going to try to argue physics in a sci-fantasy setting, you've already lost, because the setting, by its very nature, is neither intended nor designed to depict a scientifically-accurate reality.

So, in Gaunt's Ghosts, for example, we have lasguns that fire short blasts of "energy" that can deflect off solid, non-reflective surfaces (like the dark-brown stone walls of Hinzerhaus), strike with thermal and kinetic force (like the one that cracks Rawne's carapace breastplate and knocks him on his ass), cause recoil in the rifle (like Larkin's hot-shot lasrifle) and otherwise behave like we would expect a solid-projectile weapon to behave... except they're lasguns.

Last but not least, the stats provided in multiple sources, whether that's the BRB, Inquisition, FFG's DH or Black Crusade, etc. provide what are basically identical stats between comparable las weapons and SP weapons. The variances that *do* exist between them are situational, indicating that neither is clearly better than the other.

However, having carried an assault rifle and 1300 rounds of ammunition, if I could reduce the weight and bulk of that ammo by half? Hell, yes, I'd take the lasgun. Especially if it meant I could reload the magazine by putting it in the sun. Makes resupply *much* easier. Even if the lasgun had only half the range of the autogun, I'd still take it.

I guess there is another one where faulty ork "meltas" use ork collective psychic sorcerous thingies in order to make rusty crap work.

If you think that's how Orky Tech works, then... can't help you. That's just idiocy.

Ork Tech works because Ork Meks are competent mechanics. They're designed to be. Have been for 60+ million years. They just don't follow standard human design protocols, which is not surprising, considering that the Ork race is older than Humanity many, many times over.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is extremely humano-centric. It views the past technological developments of Humanity as the greatest things the galaxy has ever seen. Anything that doesn't match their preconceived notions of what is "viable technology" is, by its nature, incapable of functioning, and therefore *must* use Xeno sorcery to function.

It works because the AdMech doesn't understand Orkoid technology, not because the Orks simply believe it to work.

Shhh, dont spoil the fun. I was waiting for psiensis to barge in with some magical setting picked from just the right novel in order to excuse some weird sorcerous super technology abomination

Might want to pull your head out of your fourth point of contact, I wasn't involved in the discussion of what happens in space until we started talking about liquid coolants.

Me wrote:Speaking of starships, I believe it is noted in the "Rocks Cost Money" article that the fuel of the various Imperial vessels is hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) or "dihydride dioxide" or some such spelled-out nomenclature.

Could I use your own argument to disprove you by saying that in one novel they are actually using He3 as fuel?

Or am I not allowed to pick and choose my own settings to bring in magical, warp, tech, sorcery, setting?

Not at all, you're perfectly fine in pointing that out, because that indicates that none of the sources of this information we have available line up.

This is very much a "pick whichever option you like, you can't be wrong" scenario. Which is all I have been saying this entire time. Absolutely nothing in the information provided to us pertaining to the setting of 40K, specifically between las-weapons and SP weapons, indicates that one is clearly better than the other.

The DM goes with lasguns because of logistics. Makes sense from the standpoint of an organization of bean-counters that have to supply trillions of soldiers across the galaxy. The US military works on much the same principle. Effectiveness is balanced against cost and practicality. It is one of the many reasons why we don't plate every HMMWV in ceramic armorplate.

In hall that you guys are comin up with such great response's to this . Generally I think both have their distinctive advantages and disadvantages to each other but I am certainly impressed with all of the points people are bringing forth , and most Importantly thanks for being civil

 Exergy wrote:
I have never been arguing damage mechanism. The fluff says large hole due to vaporization, so I have been going from that.

Okay I think I see what is going on here. Let me quote the two bits *I* remember as to what lasguns do. I already posted 6th, but this is what third edition says and I think thats what you're going off of:

This is what third edition said about lasweapons

Cheap to manufacture and easy to use and maintain las weapons are issued in vast numbers to the Imperial Guard and are readily available on most Imperial worlds. Laser weapons emit a beam of focused light. The short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid temperature change on the target's surface that it vapourises in a small explosion. Lasguns are driven by a fast discharge generator, which comprises most of the lasgun's mechansim and stores energy for each shot.

Note it describes a rapid temperature change, on the surface, that it vapourises in a small explosion. You could describe that as 'vaporising a hole in the target', but you can just as easily say 'its vaporizing the surface to create explosive damage', since its not explicitly saying 'it vaporizes a hole through the target creating an explosion'. Heck it doesn't even specify how big an area is vaporized (which can still justify the type of pulse laser I describe.)

Further context can help, as per 2nd edition Wargear:

The laspistol or laser blaster is a pistol version of the lasgun and enjoys the same reputation for ease of manufacture and convenience of use. It is a standard weapon amongst the Imperial Guard, and one of the most common of all weapons carried by the Adeptus of Earth. It fires distinct bursts of laser energy, or laser shells, which explode when they hit their targets. Because the laser's energy is rapidly dispersed into the atmosphere shots at long range tend to be much less accurate than short range fire.

Laspistols fire energy bursts that explode on impact. We could figure that means explosive shells of course (and they aren't really lasers) or it means something akin to what is described in 2nd edition - it makes the surface vaporize explosively and blasts a crater in the target.


2nd edition Wargear again:

The lasgun or laser gun is the standard weapon of the Imperial Guard and the most popular weapon amongst most human forces. It fires an explosive energy blast with a similar effect to a bullet or small shell.

Again 'explosive' energy blast, and it has an effect akin to a projectile weapon of some kind or another (which suggests again, drilling a hole through the target, and not neccesarily a large one) The pulse lasers I have described can in fact do this, but its very hard to describe a energy weapon that could closely simulate a projectile impact (and vaporizing large portions of the target is probably going to produce something more akin to a grenade unless its over a large volume or a very large fraction of a second and thus would probably do more widespread burning than hole punching.)

Now we could continue arguing over interpretation, but I don't really see any reason to. I've believed that it meant what you do (EG lasweapons must vaporize holes through targets!) but that honestly is not the only inteprretation. I'm not saying you CAN'T interpret it that way, of course, and if you want to believe that's how it works you're free too. I'm just pointing out it does not neccesarily need to work that way and could work just as well or better other ways.

I actually like the 'pulsed lasers' because they have ludicrous penetration (vastly better than modern AP rounds.) When you consider storm bolter rounds have been described as penetrating eight inches of plasteel in Epic, and BattleZone Cityfight describes laspistols punching lasbolts through brick walls to injure targets on the other side.. well.. lasweapons seem pretty damn impressive that way. Although again even with pulsed lasers the performance can be varied depending on what you go for, so it doesn't automatically mean lasguns have awesometastic penetration either

Another advantage is that a pulse laser as the links I mentioned describe is also easier to reconcile with the ability to recharge lasguns by solar power (in presumbably reasonable timeframes), cooling and ineffifiencies (EG not melting the lasgun or its intenral components) and even battery size. Which means that you get less people arguing you're trying to spank out lasweapons (saves you migraines there, in my experience.)

A weapon that instead of vaporizing a large chunk instead just raises the body tempurature from 37 to 45 would incapacitate and likely kill any human. There have been a few people who have survived body temp above 45, but most die rather quickly.

So I have heard, but how quickly does it incapacitate or kill that way? Even if you heat the torso to that it probably is going ot take what, a megajoule? You could probably use severe flash burns (3rd-4th degree, as in nuclear explosions) to be nearly as lethal with far less energy (really severe flash burns will actually cause steam explosions in the tissues, as I recall. I'll have to dig into the Nuclear Weapons FAQ)

But I'm going to note anyhow that a weapon that raises body temp is not a weapon that is punching large, lethal holes through people or blasting off limbs.

Who says las-guns have to fire lasers? All the detailed descriptions of how a las-gun works are from the imperial-guardman's handbook (the little spin off book from the gaunts ghost series). The same book that says (don't have the book to hand so paraphrasing) 'In the event of a hull breach and you are sucked out into space try to swim back in'. Clearly this book lies. So describing las-guns as laser weapons is sensible because the shot fired looks like a laser (also discourages guardsmen fiddling with their guns and learning forbidden knowledge). I like to think of the las-gus very similar to the weapons used in mass effect.I.E using effectively slivers of metal shaved off a metal block and then accelerated through a coil accelerator.

TL;DR: Lasguns are like modern day equivalent of dragon scale body armour. Looks like a laser but it isn't.

That particular book also says that lasguns (it tried to auto-correct to flashgun,. I guess it knows it's a flashlight) will take anything down in one shot, gaurdsman have the strongest Armour in the galaxy, tau are herbivors that are scared by loud noises and can't do science, genestealers being slow, and having blunt claws, shuriken weapons being unable to penetrate flak armor, and orks being small. I would not trust anything it says, although I assume lasguns doe fire laser because:
A. Lasguns,
and
B. Look at the art.

it05y25 wrote:
Lasguns are like modern day equivalent of dragon scale body armour. Looks like a laser but it isn't.

Umm... what?

I'd imagine kinetic weaponry especially facing space marines. During WWI and WWII one tactic when not equipped with anti tank weapons was to hit the tank with heavy machine guns until the crew lost it and bailed out.

THE NOISE! THE DREADFUL NOISE!