Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Snipers don't necessarily need quiet weapons. Marksmen attached to normal infantry formations can hide their fire in the midst of the rest of their comrades and its these guys that likely use long-las type weapons. Main reference would be the Gaunts Ghosts series. Its only infiltratey types that need silence and from the fluff these guys get issued needle sniper rifles instead. The pulsed laser in a needle sniper rifle only needs to make a small hole for the neurotoxin to get through and into the target, so may be quieter than a standard hot-shot long las.

 Hawky wrote:
I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

It probably wouldn't take much more than your average magnet to screw with a lasgun. The only way you'd need a "super-strong electromagnetic field" is if you plan on taking out the entire army and it's mother's worth of equipment. Or SH vehicles...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Lasweapons wouldn't cauterize to begin with. It would cause wounds that violently explode as blood gets superheated. Anything weak enough to merely cauterize isn't likely to kill someone.

Regarding this, in either Helsreach or Rynn's World (I can't remember which), a comissar (IIRC) shoots another man in the face with a laspistol. The wound is described as having burned his face off, and killing him. It is fairly plausible that it causes the flesh to detonate somewhat, before cauterising from the heat, but not before [fatal to human] damage occurs.

Additionally, somewhere in the fluff section of the 6E rulebook it describes the medical procedure for treating a man who has taken a las-shot to the chest. The procedure is to wrap him up in bandages to cover the wound, as organ failure is considered inevitable, and treating it serves only to keep morale up.

Once again going solely by Inquisitor, ballistic sniper rifles have a higher damage profile, whereas las snipers have a greater accuracy.
Sounds okay to me.

Hawky wrote:I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)
Auroguns are most likely immune.

It could also simply be that lasguns are shielded against this sort of interference. It would make sense, precisely because otherwise this would be a major disadvantage locking down entire armies, and it's not too hard to do, given that we're already doing this today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding

[edit] fixed quote name

 Lynata wrote:
Once again going solely by Inquisitor, ballistic sniper rifles have a higher damage profile, whereas las snipers have a greater accuracy.
Sounds okay to me.

Hawky wrote:I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)
Auroguns are most likely immune.

It could also simply be that lasguns are shielded against this sort of interference. It would make sense, precisely because otherwise this would be a major disadvantage locking down entire armies, and it's not too hard to do, given that we're already doing this today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding

Corrected that for ya

Whoops. Sorry for that.

Well I would certainly attribute greater accuracy as it possess's no recoil due to not having a powder ignition .
Where as the situation involving stealth bring needed the argument is between las, Kinetics .
While the neuro-toxin would fall under kinetic lets leave it out of the argument

Actually las weaponry does have recoil.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually las weaponry does have recoil.

However it does not possess Enough to impact accuracy over long distances - at least that's my understanding of it

I'd put Las weaponry ahead as the better weapon.
Logistics wins battles.
Las weapons have a simpler logistics chain and need less resupply.

 marv335 wrote:
I'd put Las weaponry ahead as the better weapon.
Logistics wins battles.
Las weapons have a simpler logistics chain and need less resupply.

I could agree on part of that , however if mass amounts of soldiers are dying because their primary Weapon is ineffective against the enemy you are engaging then your logistics becomes more stressed from having to take many more casualties . Not saying an auto gun is going to instantly make supply chains less strained but it adds a different aspect

Reference to the published stat comparisons, both in terms of the detailed Inquisitor values and the general 40k and Necormunda stats shows that the guns are broadly equivalent in terms of effectiveness. Given that, the Lasgun's better stats on reliability and logistics makes it the obvious choice for general issue. However there are examples in the fluff of regiments being given non-standard weapons for particular purposes. Similarly all Stormtroopers are issued a weapon that is harder and more costly to maintain than standard lasguns, and in times past even squad sergeants gould get bolt pistols which are also noted as being hard and costly to maintain properly, but have particular benefits over las weaponry. So there is scope for autoguns to be used on the front lines by standard Guard regiments, but these examples are the minority because its a pain in the bum to supply them. If tehre is a particular need for the particular benefits of the autogun, they will be deployed, otherwise its a bit of a wash and you may as well take the easier option.

 Melissia wrote:
Lasweapons wouldn't cauterize to begin with. It would cause wounds that violently explode as blood gets superheated. Anything weak enough to merely cauterize isn't likely to kill someone.

they certainly would cauterize.

The at the instant of the hit, the surface of the target would become super heated under the intense energy. It would boil/vaporize/combust leaving behind a cloud of super heated gas. There would be no time for the heat in the target area to transfer to the surrounding tissue. There would be no explosion because the gas is not contained, the outside of the would would always be the most damaged/heated/vaporized while the material inside would recieve less light/energy/heat. This superheated gas would then cauterize the wound.

The superheated gas would also spread out and create a cloud of fog that would prevent you from seeing the target or shooting it with more laser weaponry.

Flinty wrote:So there is scope for autoguns to be used on the front lines by standard Guard regiments, but these examples are the minority because its a pain in the bum to supply them. If tehre is a particular need for the particular benefits of the autogun, they will be deployed, otherwise its a bit of a wash and you may as well take the easier option.

Well, the lasgun is noted for being the ONE standard that the Guard manages to enforce for everyone .. or at least tries to, as there are examples of regiments that had to make do with a smaller number of them, or didn't get any at all due to supply issues (leading to a regiment deploying with spears and bows - yay IG). This, however, would be an accident or mistake, rather than intention.

Perhaps noteworthy would be the use of cheaper heavy weapons in Siege regiments, though:

"Siege regiments are not expected to take part in mobile warfare, and so are not equipped with either transport vehicles, or the sophisticated man-portable heavy weapons used by Infantry and Armoured Fist regiments. Instead, Siege regiment infantry have to make do with crude machine guns that are commonly known as heavy stubbers. These are supplemented by large heavy weapon platforms which, while powerful, are by no means easy to move or deploy quickly. Fortunately ease of movement and deployment are not major concerns for Siege regiments. The most common such weapons used by Siege regiments are Rapier laser-destroyers and Thudd guns, but many other similar weapons are also used on occasion, such as the Tarantula weapon Platform and the Mole mortar."
- http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320009_Swordwind_Part_2_-_Imperial_&_Ork_forces.pdf

"Although at first glance similar to other Imperial Guard squads, the squads of the Siege regiments make extensive use of heavy stubbers. Although not as effective as autocannons or heavy bolters, they are cheap and easy to produce allowing Siege Infantry to be lavishly equipped with them.
- http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1101964&setLocale=en_AU

Exergy wrote:There would be no explosion because the gas is not contained, the outside of the would would always be the most damaged/heated/vaporized while the material inside would recieve less light/energy/heat.

Codex fluff describes both cauterisation as well as an explosion. The "containment" necessary for this effect is probably a result of the blood and flesh being boiled faster than it can vaporise on the localised impact site (the impact wound). Las beams do penetrate and cook the insides of the target, and with the human body being ~90% water ... well. POP!

Sure, it's not the same as being hit by a missile or a grenade with an explosive charge, but an explosion nonetheless.

I also don't think that the resulting mist would create huge smoke clouds. Surely, lasguns don't shear away that much from a body.

Much of this is a matter of interpretation, of course, but I'm fine with the idea of las weapons punching fist-sized holes into people, with the organic tissue being turned into a fine red mist visible for a second or two. At least I think it would look "cool".

 Hawky wrote:
I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

To be fair if we're going for this sort of thing what about boltguns working in space? I suppose they could have an oxygen tank to help fire the boltgun but still it's a little odd considering space marines are SPACE marines.

I have heard of at least one story with imperial guard in one of the black library books and near the end they talk about the orks with a warboss or weirdboy that had the power to shut down all their equipment. I guess it was like an EMP. Basically I heard they got overrun and destroyed. Kinda makes me wanna punch whoever wrote that but it is a little silly.

Also I wouldn't doubt necrons (or at least the previous necrons) or even the tau have some sort of weapon against electronics (emp grenades). Most likely the tau would have it. The old crons would just use the void dragon to screw over machines. Eldar probably would just use some sort of dimensional warp device to stop something like a tank that is probably very impractical but then it is 40k.

 Lynata wrote:

Exergy wrote:There would be no explosion because the gas is not contained, the outside of the would would always be the most damaged/heated/vaporized while the material inside would recieve less light/energy/heat.

Codex fluff describes both cauterisation as well as an explosion. The "containment" necessary for this effect is probably a result of the blood and flesh being boiled faster than it can vaporise on the localised impact site (the impact wound). Las beams do penetrate and cook the insides of the target, and with the human body being ~90% water ... well. POP!

Sure, it's not the same as being hit by a missile or a grenade with an explosive charge, but an explosion nonetheless.

I also don't think that the resulting mist would create huge smoke clouds. Surely, lasguns don't shear away that much from a body.

Much of this is a matter of interpretation, of course, but I'm fine with the idea of las weapons punching fist-sized holes into people, with the organic tissue being turned into a fine red mist visible for a second or two. At least I think it would look "cool".

If that is what the fluff says that is what the fluff says, we just need to ignore physics and move on. Even when flesh is exposed to a pure vaccuum, like in space, the skin can contain the blood from exploding.
Assuming you have such a high powered laser beam to heat the water up above boiling in a split second, it is still not going to cause the flesh to explode. The amount of heat going in is going to raise the non water bits to much higher temperatures, as they have lower specific heats and thus are likely to vaporize as well, not sticking around to contain the steam.

Also it wouldn't be a red cloud that would dissipate in a few seconds, it would be a huge grey cloud that would last several minutes. Converting a cubic ft of flesh, clothing and gear into gas would turn into a huge volume of gas. Assuming standard pressure and only increasing the temperature of water to boiling you are talking about 2000 cubic feet of gas, and that would require constant slow heating. If you wanted to vaporize that much material instantly much of it would have to be at a much higher temperature which would mean much more gas, 20,000 cubic feet easily.

The human body is also only 55-60% water. 90% and we would be puddles.


Heat is a pretty ineffective way to deal damage to a human body and most mechanical systems. It can wreck havoc on electronics though. Playing a game of toy soldiers in space with fantasy magic and monsters around, it is required to ignore physics a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

I have heard of at least one story with imperial guard in one of the black library books and near the end they talk about the orks with a warboss or weirdboy that had the power to shut down all their equipment. I guess it was like an EMP. Basically I heard they got overrun and destroyed. Kinda makes me wanna punch whoever wrote that but it is a little silly.

Also I wouldn't doubt necrons (or at least the previous necrons) or even the tau have some sort of weapon against electronics (emp grenades). Most likely the tau would have it. The old crons would just use the void dragon to screw over machines. Eldar probably would just use some sort of dimensional warp device to stop something like a tank that is probably very impractical but then it is 40k.

EMP is relatively easy to shield against. Installing a Faraday cage around everything isnt super difficult even in the super grimdark future of 40k.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

 marv335 wrote:
I'd put Las weaponry ahead as the better weapon.
Logistics wins battles.
Las weapons have a simpler logistics chain and need less resupply.

I could agree on part of that , however if mass amounts of soldiers are dying because their primary Weapon is ineffective against the enemy you are engaging then your logistics becomes more stressed from having to take many more casualties . Not saying an auto gun is going to instantly make supply chains less strained but it adds a different aspect

If the lasgun isn't killing it, your assault rifle ain't gonna kill it, either. Time to bring in the tanks or the Space Marines.

It wouldn't be to difficult to design a recoilless autogun, the US Military has been doing it since the 1960s.

A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

Well, the fluff of 40K has established that lascells last indefinitely, as long as there is an electrical or thermal source to recharge them (like, say, a local sun). So no "excitable gas" is required for their function. They shoot a condensed beam of light that bears both thermal and kinetic properties.

Any other "real science" concerns are discarded in the face of the data we are provided in the setting, because it is thusly established that the 40K universe does not function in line with our own.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, the fluff of 40K has established that lascells last indefinitely, as long as there is an electrical or thermal source to recharge them (like, say, a local sun). So no "excitable gas" is required for their function. They shoot a condensed beam of light that bears both thermal and kinetic properties.

Any other "real science" concerns are discarded in the face of the data we are provided in the setting, because it is thusly established that the 40K universe does not function in line with our own.

That's fine, meaning they aren't truly lasers per say. It's just easier to call them that as they appear that way to us (because a laser would also be invisible to the eye, unless there is sufficient moisture in the air, and we have loads of examples of them telling us people can see las 'bolts', which is impossible for a laser, which is a contiguous beam, or las beams in the fluff).

And of course the answer to the original question is the magic of radium rifles and their atomic bullets of death from ERB novels. Because that is how radium bullets work

However it is certainly a good topic I believe we can discuss -

But looking into the balances of it -
Is it possible that an auto gun would perform better in a rainforest enviroment as the solid projectile would not be affected by refraction and reflection that a las bolt would suffer . While rust would be a massive problem with both it would affect an auto gun more as the moisture would be enter more areas because of the larger amount of moving parts involved at the time .

So basically, what the IG really need is a waterproofing option...

In most cases, I'd stick with the lasgun. While rainy weather may cause severe range/accuracy difficulties, from the evidence we have, lasguns are an energy based weapon, and as such, they may be able to send a charge through water, and electrocute the target.

I have not much evidence to back this theory up, though.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

Also many of the things which supposedly make lasguns weak-- dust, dirt, rain, mist, etc-- would also make reflective armor weaker to lasguns.

Reflection isn't really a good way to defend against lasguns.

Hmm...

So the real question is, how can we rate the effectiveness of a lasgun in any given situation?

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
However it is certainly a good topic I believe we can discuss -

But looking into the balances of it -
Is it possible that an auto gun would perform better in a rainforest enviroment as the solid projectile would not be affected by refraction and reflection that a las bolt would suffer . While rust would be a massive problem with both it would affect an auto gun more as the moisture would be enter more areas because of the larger amount of moving parts involved at the time .

Most ballistic based guns would probably be made from composites or similar material that wouldn't rust. I would assume the same for lasguns. The concept that lasguns are infinitely more rugged would require some basically indestructible weapons.

http://www.stripes.com/news/after-30-years-the-marines-are-returning-to-the-colt-45-pistol-1.186159?localLinksEnabled=false
http://www.dlsports.com/underwater_handgun_shooting.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj5Kcs4dzro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6i3dtytmBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqL0dtIeTT8
and while not crazy about Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16

The colt .45, glocks, the ak-47, and others are pretty much indestructible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

Space Marines, and pretty much every other power armor in the fluff, is a ceramic composite material. It isn't really 'metal' per say. This is generally because you can make cheaper, more durable composite materials than all metal. Plus, being non ferrous, or at least being a composite/alloy, means you can design it to be immune to many things that would otherwise hurt 'metal' armor.

Also, many armies are particularly noted for a disdain of camo. They view it as beneath them, cowardly, not flamboyant enough, or other. This is so we as painters can use guys in day glow yellow body armor to look cool.

 Melissia wrote:
Also many of the things which supposedly make lasguns weak-- dust, dirt, rain, mist, etc-- would also make reflective armor weaker to lasguns.

Reflection isn't really a good way to defend against lasguns.

No dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in. Worse each hit on something would just create more dust, smoke, and mist. I have worked in the aerospace field and every time directed energy weapons are considered the comically easy ways they can be defeated are brought up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

If you dont want to use a reflective material you can instead go for something that smokes. As the shot comes and starts to vaporize it, it creates a dark, light absorbing smoke that hangs around and obscures the target. The laser cannot penetrate the smoke and instead just harmlessly makes the air hotter rather than heating up the target.

 Exergy wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also many of the things which supposedly make lasguns weak-- dust, dirt, rain, mist, etc-- would also make reflective armor weaker to lasguns.

Reflection isn't really a good way to defend against lasguns.

No dust in the air, rain, mist, fog, and smoke would be very effective at diffusing the laser beams going in. Worse each hit on something would just create more dust, smoke, and mist. I have worked in the aerospace field and every time directed energy weapons are considered the comically easy ways they can be defeated are brought up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


A lasgun would have issues with particularly wet or rainy environments, due to refraction. Also, the power might recharge, but it isn't truly a laser without an excited gas, which would run out. So, if they are actually laser weapons, you'd have two ammo sources, the gas that you excite to fire the laser, and the power cell to do it with.

The real problem would be every army would start running around in reflective material. 99% reflective mylar or aluminium isnt hard to come by. Cover your armor in the stuff and the most of the energy is going to bounce right off. (if the shot's durration is long enough, you could eventually vaporize the mylar with the 1% that gets through and then the rest of the shot goes through)

Well I guess that explains why lasguns almost never do anything in small numbers, despite being able to blast chunks out of the target's flesh...

Armour by race:

Orks - Metal/leather, partially reflective
Space Marines (most kinds of) - Metal(ish), partially reflective
Eldar - 99% bling, probably reflective
IG - Flak armour, not reflective.
Necrons - all metal, won't give a flying rabid monkey's uncle's ass anyway.

EDIT: I feel I must mention that most forces are unlikely to always use reflective materials such as that, as they make the wearer easy to spot, and may not be the most effective way to protect them from the IG artillery.

If you dont want to use a reflective material you can instead go for something that smokes. As the shot comes and starts to vaporize it, it creates a dark, light absorbing smoke that hangs around and obscures the target. The laser cannot penetrate the smoke and instead just harmlessly makes the air hotter rather than heating up the target.

And this, then, is probably why the only truly effective IG firepower comes from their vehicles/artillery/Orbital Bombardement etc.

It may be fairly safe to say that a seemingly infinitely-ammo'd lasgun is as much for morale purposes as it is for killing things.