I know i will take some flak for this but chaos space marines are not always that evil. For example, the alpha legion started out with admirable intentions, but were branded as pure evil so they became evil. Another example is the iron warriors; the main reason for their rebellion was the way the emperor used them as absolute fodder, decimating their legion. Also, some chaos marines are born into being chaos, such as the marines created by daemonoccuba. Can you really say that all of them are any more evil than the imperium?

As I've said before (and will probably say again):

But what is evil anyway?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
Without evil there can be no good,
so it must be good to be evil sometimes.

 Happyjew wrote:
As I've said before (and will probably say again):

But what is evil anyway?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
Without evil there can be no good,
so it must be good to be evil sometimes.

Relax, guuuuuuuuy.

Btw I know that 99.99999% of chaos marines are hitler In space

For me personally, Chaos represents the best aspects of humanity, taken too far - just as the Imperium represents ordered society, taken too far and ending in stagnation, The 4 Gods represent good qualities, taken to unhealthy extremes.

For example, Tzeencth is the will to change ourselves and society for the better, warped into change for change's own sake, while we all know that Nurgle loves and cherishes his children.

As far as CSM are concerned, I like the Emperor's children as an example. They start out as striving to be the best they can be, and with a sense of the aesthetics of near-perfection - the bad side of Chaos happens when you go too far, it's a lack of moderation that leads to their "evil-ness"

It's no bad thing to try and better yourself, or to fear death, or enjoy life - with moderation.

Personally, I think Chaos is only as evil as "Order" is - the trick would be to find the balance between the two.

It may be widely considered "Evil," but I would hesitate to call it bad. Say what you want about Khorne or Slaanesh, they give their devout followers what they want, and appreciate all of them. Nurgle loves his followers to undeath(almost sounds like a funny joke), but it's a love forced on them in the form of festering pustules of malignant ooze. Tzeentch just tricks people into following him with promises of power that have strings attached. You would never see Khorne doing that. What a piece of gak.

I think dark apostle said it best hence in 40k no one is a good guy. Its a battle of extremes going on.

To quote the Culexus assassin Syncella in 'Seventh Retribution' (stellar book by the by):
"But you and I, Lysander, know the war we fight is not a matter of right or wrong. It is a clash between two different flavors of amorality..."

In the 41st millennium, no one is really good, and so no one is really evil. Clearly there are exceptions (Honsou virus bombed a planet out of sheer spite, so I think he counts as evil), but given the immoral and amoral methods and actions of any given faction we can see why 40k is referred to as Grimdark.

It's far more evil than I thought it was at first.

These are the same people who say "Let no good deed go unpunished. Let no evil deed go unrewarded.", and they say it perfectly seriously with no irony. They also say "Destroy, for the sake of Destruction. Kill, for the sake of Killing.", again perfectly seriously and with no irony.

Chaos encourages its adherents to kill and destroy for the sake of doing so, to be evil for the sake of being evil, and they reward them for doing so. There's nothing redeemable about Chaos. The Imperium might not be "good", but Chaos is most certainly "bad", and they love every second of it.

To paint all of Chaos with a single brush, is fool: Chaos is not Bad no more than the Imperium is good. Chaos is simply that; Chaos. And in a lot of ways, you have to start making distinctions between the Forces of Chaos (Daemons) and those who are enslaved to Chaos (the Chaos Space Marines, Legion of the Damned, etc).

I'll agree with most of the above (especially the quote to Lysander): This isn't a fight between good and evil. It's a fight between polar amoral opposites. Chaos and Order, both of which, when taken to the extreme generate equally large losses of life.

But let me spin this a little further.

Firstly: The Champions of Chaos do not Do for the sake of Doing. The Do for the sake of Power and ultimately, Immortality (in the case of CSM). Pleasing the Dark Gods just happens to be the best way of achieving said immortality.

Secondly; We all know that there are Sorcerers and such who perform sacrifice and such, and all the daemon-ry and blah-blah. Ever read Ahriman:Exile? That book alone paints a very different picture of the CSM, particularly one like Ahriman. Instead of being Hitler...actually, that is a very good analogy if we're talking about the actual history of Hitler and not what has been prescribed to us by an Imperial system at large.

Here is what I mean (and yeah, he still did bad things) - Hitler, like all politicians in this world, do not rise to power of their own talent and accord. They are financed by an individual that has recognized a "winning trait" in that politician. Something that resonated with enough people to catch the billionaires eye, to make him want to finance his campaign. And it all comes with an understood promise/deal: I'll back you if you do what I say. This is why the Koch Brothers in America have their hands in dominant shares of both the Republican and Democratic parties come election time. So getting off of that soap box, lets take it to the CSM.

You find out that each and every one of them was arrogant enough to believe a deal could be struck with the Ruinous Power that would benefit them, and each was in turn enslaved to those powers. The best expression of this I can give is when Horus looks at the newly-Daemon Primarch Fulgrim and his reaction to seeing his brothers soul tormented and chained within his own body. Horus was especially naive and arrogant, and hence easy to manipulate by Chaos, for believing himself "Chosen." Sure, he was Chosen, just like people were Chosen to be stoned to death in the old Lottery. XD

You read enough of these stories and you start to feel bad for these guys. For me, it is currently Magnus the Red. Here is a Primarch who knew with better clarity than any other Primarch, and possibly the Emperor himself, what lay within the Warp and what it's plans were for his brothers and father, and he risked it all to save Horus and the Imperium. And he failed because the odds were simply too great. And his punishment for failure? Porcupine quillees, an orb of light with a thousand eyes, yet he is blind and a red monster. And he is all but separate from the Warp now, almost entirely unreachable yet still seeming to work at some impossibly higher level.

And there is Ahriman himself! This sorcerer tries to save his Legions soul from Change and he blasts them to dust, and afterwards he faces hell and high water trying to figure out how to put them back together, or at least undo the spell.

In a thread I posted in earlier, I described in detail how the Chaos Gods and Daemons played into this, per their Codex. Simply put, they have less respect for the Space Marines and even less respect for the Primarchs themselves, than they do for Humanity and the rest of the universe. Both the Primarchs and the CSM are but tools of acquisition now, and what are they acquiring? The untold billions of mortal souls left that makes up the main course. THAT my friends is worth something. And we couldn't have done it without little ol Perty and Maggy and...

Yeah. Surely, the gods have a grim sense of humor indeed.

So, all these examples, evil?

Good/Evil are perspective/morality. I always tend to think that it's likely that any other race/civilization may not even have the concepts. Also in GW terms, Chaos is essentially psychic races emotional debris. Which you can run with all day long.

Moral Relativism has no place in the 41st millennium. It is the mark of the heretic, the traitor and the pawn of the Ruinous Powers. Neutrality is a sign of moral weakness. Mercy the sin of the foolish.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
To quote the Culexus assassin Syncella in 'Seventh Retribution' (stellar book by the by):
"But you and I, Lysander, know the war we fight is not a matter of right or wrong. It is a clash between two different flavors of amorality..."

Added to my to-read list. This quote is sweet.

Thank you.

On topic: Chaos is not Evil. Chaos is Chaos. Order/Law can be Evil too, and Chaos can be Good. In the last editions the Imperium and the Space Marines have been gradually pushed towards "good", and thus Chaos turned into "evil". But it is a gross simplification that I think deteriorates the setting.

With the exception of the necrons, the factions typically associated with order (Tau, Imperium, Elder to a lesser extent) are usually at least TRYING to be "good" in the vast majority of portrayals we've seen of them (IE, there are individuals within the factions working towards the benefit of others as opposed to just selfish benefit. Even the leadership are at least possibly working towards the benefits of others as opposed to just selfish benefit). Chaos... really isn't, in most cases (same with the more chaotic factions. The Dark Eldar codex outright says they're the most evil beings in its intro). Well, except Nurgle, for his own given definition of "good". And the chaos gods have consistently been stated always to do things only for their own benefit (even Nurgle doesn't seem exempt from that statement if he's presumably included in the term "Chaos gods" whenever it comes up. Given that he'll only save your ass from his diseases if you give your soul to him, this is likely the case)

Note that I said "most cases", not all.

The vibe I get from the Word Bearers is that their assaults on Imperial Planets are in an effort to bring humanity into a united state under the symbol of Chaos Undivided rather then The God Emperor. Yes they throw hundreds of thousands of cultists to their deaths as so much cannon fodder... but so does the Imperial Guard.
Yes, they will initiate world-killing weapons of mass destruction simply to spite their opposition... but so does the Inquisition.
Certainly they call upon the powers of the Warp to achieve many of their goals... but so do the Grey Knights (as all psychic energy is gleaned from the Warp).
I maintain that Chaos is no more evil then the IoM, and frankly they're just more upfront about being massive 's.

Khorne was more interesting when there was more emphasis on the Martial honour and pride aspect. Now it seems Khorne is way to blood and guts above all else.

Lord of Lustria wrote:
Btw I know that 99.99999% of chaos marines are hitler In space

This

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
snip

Funny enough Redwing playing dawn of war 2 retribution upon getting heretics eliphas says something to the effect he does not understand why the chaos gods like mortals so much.

Well Melissia the main drawn point for chaos is powering oneself and living freely if you are strong enough and there are many humans in fluff becoming daemons,champions and heralds. I mean reading the word bearers novels the common man are forced to work in salt fields that make them slowly go blind and deteriorates the body while the nobles sit in their high towers growing fat by their expense. You try and protest? voice a concern? guess what you get *Blam* rest of you get back to work! Guess what they became cultists and no they were not enslaved there are various points of the word bearers complementing their skills. Its a battle of extremes chaos and order.

If the IOM was so great as well you would not also have humans rather staying with the Tau.

I first read the IOM fluff when I first started 40k the supposed "good" faction after doing so I simply said to the manager they are evil and he said "Yup" and he loves them to bits Hence the only group I like in the IOM side is the salamanders but majority of the time its other factions taking the piss out of them being humanitarian.

Then moving onto other factions and reading their fluff I realized NO one is "good", no one is "evil" its just extreme ideologies clashing moderation does not exist in 40k. As a chaos fan I don't really believe chaos is good in 40k by any stretch of the margin normally with chaos it starts moderate or on the lesser evil scale but it gets extreme pretty quickly. Its as the word bearers said chaos is simply a horrible truth.

Hence this if my favorite quote "There is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods." The chaos gods don't really have to do anything since almost everything and everyone in 40k in fueling them.

The Word Bearers are actually some of the nicer Chaos worshippers, probably due to their selflessness (they honestly do believe in the Chaos Gods as the truth and serve them for the sake of serving them, unlike the VAST majority of other followers).

That said, they still do a ton of evil things (including human sacrifices, etc) and sometimes revel in it.

However, that's really just the Word Bearers. The vast majority of other Chaos followers serve Chaos for their own selfish ends and are extremely evil to the core. A few of them also believe in Chaos as the truth and as the uniter of humanity but are still selfish anyways.

It should be noted that the vast majority of times (all of them to my knowledge, really) the concept of human sacrifice turns up in Imperial fluff, inquisitors call Heresy on it. Although one major exception is ironically the Emperor himself eating psykers, although at least we haven't seen any fluff where anyone ENJOYS sacrificing those psykers to him (in fact, the only Black Library fluff we have on the matter is that he really wanted it to just be a temporary thing until a better solution could be found).

I suppose in the end it can be summed up that most of the evil things the Imperium does are usually out of nescescity and many Imperials actually don't enjoy it (but some do), whereas Chaos will usually do evil things just for the hell of it and find it fun (and you'll almost never find a Chaos worshipper feeling guilty about it).

TiamatRoar wrote:
It should be noted that the vast majority of times (all of them to my knowledge, really) the concept of human sacrifice turns up in Imperial fluff, inquisitors call Heresy on it. Although one major exception is ironically the Emperor himself eating psykers, although at least we haven't seen any fluff where anyone ENJOYS sacrificing those psykers to him (in fact, the only Black Library fluff we have on the matter is that he really wanted it to just be a temporary thing until a better solution could be found).

There is a short story by the title of 'Sacrifice' by Ben Counter goes over in great detail how a Grey Knight is armed. Each and EVERY bolt round for their storm bolters is bathed in the blood of a "good man", whose throat is slit by priests of the Ecclesiarchy. The blood is collected in a silver bowl to cleanse and bless the bolt shell.

The wards of the Grey Knights armor is empowered by the death of hundreds upon hundreds of psykers. They are thrown bodily into a massive furnace, their flesh and bones rendered to ash, while their souls are used to fuel the armors hexagramatic wards.

In the Black Library book "Faith and Fire", an annual celebration led by the Ecclesiarchy, has a "mock" battle between the Eldar and the Sisters of Battle. It is mock in the sense that the contestants aren't really Adepta Sororitas or Eldar, and their armor isn't real... but the guns most assuredly are.

Maybe no other Chaos faction is as "nice" as the Word Bearers, but I doubt they're any worse than the IoM.

 Melissia wrote:
It's far more evil than I thought it was at first.

These are the same people who say "Let no good deed go unpunished. Let no evil deed go unrewarded.", and they say it perfectly seriously with no irony. They also say "Destroy, for the sake of Destruction. Kill, for the sake of Killing.", again perfectly seriously and with no irony.

Chaos encourages its adherents to kill and destroy for the sake of doing so, to be evil for the sake of being evil, and they reward them for doing so. There's nothing redeemable about Chaos. The Imperium might not be "good", but Chaos is most certainly "bad", and they love every second of it.

This is certainly quite true. It makes me think of people who like to see Dr. Doom or Magneto as not really evil. Self serving meglomania is evil, of which Chaos is a poster boy. The Imperium is evil as well, but it is at least for humanity.

The reason I enjoy the HH-era more than the later period is that it is more nuanced. It's not straight good v evil, with the route to damnation paved with good intentions. For example, Lorgar arguably worships Chaos because he believes that ascension is the only way for mankind to survive.

I'm suspect Chaos doesn't view itself as evil, and sees warp storms and tentacles as a sign of love.

Imperial Citizen Timothy might view the matter somewhat differently though, if his Dad came home from work with horns and murdered the rest of the family while yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

It's all relative. Personally though? Chaos is evil, and that's why we like it so much.

shinros wrote:
the main drawn point for chaos is powering oneself and living freely if you are strong enough and there are many humans in fluff becoming daemons,champions and heralds.

But are you free, though? Being a follower of Chaos basically entails being the plaything of an uncaring god, mind body and soul. Like your arm? Chaos might whimsically decide to replace it with a tentacle, and you have no say in the matter. Were you a clam, reasonable individual? Khorne will twist your mind until you are a frothing madman. Sure the Imperium are very oppressive, but they don't violate your body and soul quite so much as Chaos.

As for becoming a Daemon, then you pretty much exist as an extension of that god. If you act in a way which that god disapproves of, it's very easy to be punished. Still not really freedom.

 Zed wrote:
I'm suspect Chaos doesn't view itself as evil

Except it explicitly does.

 Melissia wrote:

 Zed wrote:
I'm suspect Chaos doesn't view itself as evil

Except it explicitly does.

Ditto. They aren't known as the Ruinous Powers, the Great Enemy, or any of a dozen other terms labeling them as evil for nothing. Chaos is the Snidely Whiplash of 40k and they're perfectly happy in that role.

Chaos enslaves the body and soul to be used and abused as the 'gods' see fit. Even a demon prince is still a pawn and subject to the whims of his/her patron 'deity'.

It doesn't mean the Imperium isn't also evil to class Chaos as evil.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:

There is a short story by the title of 'Sacrifice' by Ben Counter goes over in great detail how a Grey Knight is armed. Each and EVERY bolt round for their storm bolters is bathed in the blood of a "good man", whose throat is slit by priests of the Ecclesiarchy. The blood is collected in a silver bowl to cleanse and bless the bolt shell.

Hmm, I didn't know that about the Grey Knights. Well, that's certainly rather vile morality, although assuming the "blood of a good man" is proven to work against demons (which it probably is. The Ordos Malleus generally doesn't pull things out of its ass randomly when figuring out how to deal with demons), it technically does fall under the "they are doing it out of necessity and aren't enjoying it" thing. The festival, on the other hand.... although that's really no more evil than Rome's gladiator coliseums, which is still of morally heinous quality but relatively speaking isn't necessarily as bad as what other factions get down to. Again, it's not that the Imperium is good so much as they aren't AS evil as the other factions overall. And it varies from place to place. In one area you might find Space Marines who care about civilians while in another you won't, but when it comes to CHAOS, you'll almost (almost) never get that former one (the marines caring about the civilians) in the first place.

Basically the Imperium has good parts and evil parts to varying degrees, as do most of the "orderly" factions, but when it comes to the more chaotic factions, the evil starts outweighing the good quite a bit more than it does for the order-ish ones. Chaos on its best moral day/area might be better than the Imperium on its worse moral day/area, but you'll be hard pressed to argue that Chaos on its best moral day/area is better than the Imperium at its best moral day/area (or at least have as much quantity of it).

The fact that the blood of a GOOD man works against Chaos kinda proves the point that Chaos is inherently evil, though. Otherwise either any blood or evil blood would work just as well or "good" blood would not work. One or the other.

Hmm, actually, the title of this thread is "Chaos not as evil as you thought?
So this is all subjective. I personally hold that Chaos is just about as evil as any other faction under the right circumstances, more evil in others, and less in others still. Every book, every after action report; they're all snippits of the whole picture.
So yeah, the Chaos Gods and their followers are evil, but less evil than I had initially thought. You also have to recall that most of the books are written from an Imperial perspective, which will skew things in their favor.

 Troike wrote:

shinros wrote:
the main drawn point for chaos is powering oneself and living freely if you are strong enough and there are many humans in fluff becoming daemons,champions and heralds.

But are you free, though? Being a follower of Chaos basically entails being the plaything of an uncaring god, mind body and soul. Like your arm? Chaos might whimsically decide to replace it with a tentacle, and you have no say in the matter. Were you a clam, reasonable individual? Khorne will twist your mind until you are a frothing madman. Sure the Imperium are very oppressive, but they don't violate your body and soul quite so much as Chaos.

As for becoming a Daemon, then you pretty much exist as an extension of that god. If you act in a way which that god disapproves of, it's very easy to be punished. Still not really freedom.

0

To them they are more free than they were with than with the IOM and they are fine serving them most chaos servants who have a tentacle seem rather cool with having one.

It comes to another question how much are you willing to lose? For the sake of freedom? Same question to the IOM how much are you willing to lose for complete order?

Then it comes to the debate are they slaves or servants? I view them as servants but everyone has a different opinion.

I mean look at the soul hunter series septimus hated being a slave(I don't really consider him a slave anymore after reading the series) but he somewhat enjoyed it as well since his old daily life was boring and he described his previous life as simply being a cog in a broken machine. Now he fixes space marine armor and gets the to drive a thunderhawk where normally a human driving one would be punishable by death.

Funny enough

I just read a book called pawns of chaos where people on a medieval level planet(Now the planet was not HAHAHAH evil plans mwahaha throwing psychic bolts) was being invaded by the IOM. They worshiped tzeentch now this planet has a lot of psykers and a daemon a lord of change was bound to someone through a sacrifice. Since they were looking for a way to save the planet. This daemon touched two people the main character dathan and the girl he secretly likes. Now since they were bound to the daemon, the daemon wanted to envelope the reinforcement ships that were coming in order to sacrifice them. The girl followed the daemons plan to the letter and just about when the ships were about to be enveloped by the warp storm.

Dathan stopped it constantly throughout the book he keeps asking questions why do we do this? Well this daemon help us? and is everything predetermined? stuff like that he was also bound to the daemon but unlike the girl he kept asking questions why is this happening? Are we simple play things/slaves or servants/ourselves? He kept saying he is a man not a slave etc. The chosen summoned the lord of change said he is right to think these things(He is following the daemon plan). He also said Dathan would of been an amazing sorcerer better than he was if he had the talent. He even said the IOM view themselves as heroes and even if they kill and do things in the name of their "god" they are still doing the work of the gods they hate so much.

Dathan then said what does that make us? He said in his opinion something to the effect that we are simple servants to these powers. I can't put the whole conversation since its too long and I missed some details since I am typing this from my head but its really interesting.

So he went against the plan and pretty much backstabbed the girl he liked and the daemon and only 3 ships got away out of the 12. Literally the girl died but tzeentch began talking through the girl and said "You should betray me more often. Tzeentch was pretty much ecstatic with dathan screwing him over.

He said he is a simple man and not a slave and tzeentch totally liked that and simply said well I could use a man like you when you feel like joining me just ask got a open spot for you.

The book is really interesting it takes a more philosophical look at chaos and the imperium. To me I think the book is trying to show that the gods would rather have people/servants than complete slaves/pawns to their whims and their plans. I think the reason is the people who keep their head in the game are more interesting to them than the frothing madman who are consumed with the gods will and ideas.

Storm of iron kreogar was turning into a frothing madman and of khorne guess what? Khorne/daemon got pissed off with him and went to the human instead and told her to off him and be his herald.

In another book slaves to darkness(fantasy) the character was talking with the chaos gods trying to become a daemon prince and the chaos gods called him a slave and went NO I am not a slave I serve you I am still ME.(This answer impressed them) He became a daemon prince and when fighting the "good" faction the empire the sigmar champion his old love she called him a slave to darkness.

The daemon laughed and said that no I am a willing servant of darkness and its you who is the slave. Now as he was being banished he said to her "It was you that impressed the gods the most." course the warriors of chaos pillage the south but she the holy warrior of sigmar was burning, killing woman, children and everything else in the north. Some of the people in the north are simple tribes people but NOOO in her mind they are servants of chaos who want to ruin the empire they MUST BURN AND DIE FOR THEIR HERESIES! She was doing the dark gods work even if she was denying it hence the daemon(one of the main characters) calling her a slave.

The slave to darkness book series was showing that no side is better than each other.

Looking at books and the people who gained power it seems that the gods don't like people who lose themselves and their purpose hence the 4 of them getting on abbadons grill about being their champion.

Just want to chime in here off topic but directed at the four or five posts that mention "doing anything for the sake of others"

THIS. DOES. NOT. MAKE. YOU. GOOD.

If you sacrifice yourself for the sake of others does not make you inherently perfect. That is an extremely well cemented judeo-Christian ideology built into us at a young age by brainwashing. Just because there are stories of Jesus doing it does not mean that you doing it makes you Jesus. Just as being selfish and wanting to better yourself does not make you Lucifer. You can do either or both or neither and still be a good or bad or inbetween person. The only thing that really makes a difference is what you see in your own head. If you feel evil after crushing an insect, then by all means, go work a couple hours for Goodwill or revel in the evilness. If you donate money to cancer research and that makes you feel good, by all means, tease people on the Internet or revel in the righteousness. The only morality exists in our own heads. Everything else is merely a balancing act of chaos and order

After reading gaunts gohsts i would call the chaos very very bad. At least in the imperium there are good and bad, just like in real life. To me the Chaos CAN SOMETIMES be rewarding to their own followers but to anyone else they are pure evil. They also seem to try gain everything they can for themselves and are in it for their own benifit.

From the second i started this hobby i have always despised chaos as they are (you can argue all you want) evil. At least being in the imperium there are millions of factors that determine how good/bad your life will be but in the chaos factions its almost all bad with a tiny glimer of hope that something good will happen to you.

That glimer of hope chaos have is for the weak who dont see how being part of the imperium is like fighting and dying for the survival of humanity as a group. As with any large group of people you have personalities and cultures that differ but at least all of the imperial will combine to protect each other regardless of race etc.

With the Chaos all i see is selfish endevours and the drive to do any evil to gain the benifits chaos may or may not offer. I think all the chaos fans out there just like to defend their armies etc haha which is all well and good but they are evil because they choose to be and they are evil for selfish reasons and for that reason they cannot be argued as "not evil".

Im not saying the imperium is good but at least the imperium is a mostly united and working towards the defence of the human race (and abhumans too i guess).

So as a result i always enjoy crushing chaos players on the battle feild as they rightfully deserve it

Quote me if im wrong but if someone in their right normal minds can justify how the chaos are "not very evil" or "excusably evil" or anything less than pure evil i will be happy to hear it but right now i just dont see chaos as anything close to good in any fashion.

Well in pawns of chaos the soldier got a kid and broke his neck on a tree. Since it was deemed that since they are worshiping chaos the kids are tainted too.

Oh and if your planet does not want to join the imperium good luck to you and if you say to a sister that you don't want to worship their god or join their IOM you are going to be smoke and cinders. Oh and you know all those humans who joined the tau? They are heretics too and need to be purged hell even their sanction psykers and abhumans are treated like gak.

Both factions are evil and good and as you said factors. Hell even in the same book pawns of chaos pretty much they said that both factions are both evil and good.

shinros wrote:

Oh and if your planet does not want to join the imperium good luck to you and if you say to a sister that you don't want to worship their god or join their IOM you are going to be smoke and cinders.

Because Chaos Warbands/Demons will TOTALLY be cool with you refusing to join them.

Yes but what is good about the chaos sorry? easy to point out the bad in the imperium but no good was mentioned in the chaos... and as i said thats the individual in the imperium. i dont see good individuals in the chaos forces just evil. however in contrast i see both good and evil in the imperium.

I definitely fell this way now after reading betrayer. There are so many things I just didn't understand...now...I feel so bad =[

 curran12 wrote:

shinros wrote:

Oh and if your planet does not want to join the imperium good luck to you and if you say to a sister that you don't want to worship their god or join their IOM you are going to be smoke and cinders.

Because Chaos Warbands/Demons will TOTALLY be cool with you refusing to join them.

Yup they would be pissed too since I have been saying in this whole topic that they are no better than each other.

Oh and swastaka the people in the pawn of chaos novels were not evil and the reason why Dathan stopped all 12 ships from being consumed? Because he realised that both sides are both good and evil doing what they deem is necessary he forced them away with only 3 ships remaining and saved his planet via tzeentch power.

His choice impressed tzeentch and he spoke to him directly approving of the choice.

I havent read the book as i only find joy mostly in non fiction books oddly enough. So i dont know what you are reffering too really but was this dathan guy a chaos follower?

I am not yet convinced chaos is capable of good in any way. I wouldnt call this dathan guy a chaos follower more of an inbetweener. Undecided on which path to follow if any path.

To me i see no evidence of good from chaos there.

No he is a follower of chaos all of his planet is. Its the simple fact that he chose a different route and the planet is protected by a warp storm he controls so the IOM won't be coming back.

There is a reason why the chaos symbol is a 8 pointed star representing multiple choices and paths.

Simply multiple choices of evil realy. Well there is a single example of one good action taken by chaos. Name some more?

Actually one of the arrows represents the IOM if I recall correctly. So what does that mean for the IOM if you consider it multiple choices of evil?

One more on the last page I said that the common man on the planet was being forced to work on salt fields that slowly makes them go blind and deteriorates the body while the nobles etc grow fat by their expense the IOM does not care about them and if they try anything or voice protest they are killed. They joined the word bearers. Now do these people view the IOM as good or evil? Would they view the word bearers who helped them as good or evil?

The people being killed by those who joined the word bearers do they view them as good or evil?

I can think of other examples but no matter what I say you will never agree.

I just think they are both bad and good as each other. 40K is grimdark for a reason.

No i think the imperium is good with some bad whilst chaos is just bad with some (very few) examples of good. I have read that chaos followers can start with good inentions but they over time grow corrupt and their intentions are lost and twisted to do the will of their gods etc. I didnt know one of those arrows where the imperium (im not a fluff nut really especially with chaos) so i guess one of those choices is not evil i guess.

Generally chaos, corruption and all the other words tend to lean towards evil...

They are both bad. Both as bad as each other? Maybe not but you are still choosing a lesser of two evils. Even the supposed good race Tau is still an expanding empire of join us or die.

very true but the point i am trying to make rather than arguing where the imperium stands is simply chaos is pretty much only bad. No comparrisons or anything just looking at chaos it is evil. Its not even hidden nor is it for a good reason really its just corruption and evil for the sake of it.

I think the tau and the imperium still have their bad points but i wouldnt class them as evil. More of a balance that chaos lacks.

TiamatRoar wrote:

The fact that the blood of a GOOD man works against Chaos kinda proves the point that Chaos is inherently evil, though. Otherwise either any blood or evil blood would work just as well or "good" blood would not work. One or the other.

The IOM is supremely superstitious they are the kind of people who would kill a good man on the off chance is blood worked even if they had little hard data. Do it for long enough it becomes tradition.

Well its simply agree to disagree then.

yes but in a world where the forces of chaos are reality taking chances is something that is hard to chew. too many what ifs. Its not just superstition. Imagine being in a world where a bunch of mad demonised soldiers could try invade your planet (not country but planet) and rape and pillage your land, enslave and torture you in brutal occupation etc. Its easy to sit back and criticise the imperium but you cant blame them for not taking chances.

But when you are surrounded by evil chances are something you will take less of. Better be safe then sorry especially when the lives of untold amounts of innocence is at stake.

But the point still stands that chaos as a whole is evil. Not all perhaps but even the best intentions get twisted in time due to the influence of chaos so id argue even if they are good eventually they will become evil.

 Swastakowey wrote:
After reading gaunts gohsts i would call the chaos very very bad.

Then look at the enemy the ghosts are fighting in the Sabbat Worlds: the Imperium is at war with a full civilization that worships Khorne. And they have been doing that since forever. They are humans who worship the god of war (and not the "dumb god of always angry"), and they prosper. They have children and take care of them, they have schools, they have honor, they have medics. They have engineers who build stuff, and heroes, and... everything. It is a civilization that has lasted thousand of years.

They cannot be the "evil people" the Imperium says. Apply this to all chaos worshippers out there. In real history, many civilizations have worshipped gods and they have been branded "evil" because of that.

Also you limit yourself to Imperial propaganda. No surprise you think the enemy is "evil". Most books are from the Imperial point of view. Read Daemonworld to see another point of view.

Edit: also Pawns of Chaos. Chaos is evil as long as you limit yourself to imperial propaganda.

A question. you as an ordinary citizen with your friends and family are woken up by the noise of warfare. after some time you hear reports of the imperial guard coming to defend the town, you then hear from people that chaos forces are on their way to the town. Which way would you go? towards the imperium soldiers or towards the chaos soldiers?

Personally id take my chances heading towards the imperial men and women coming this way and in my opinion most people would. Screw getting tortured in untold missery by a bunch of psychos doing a ritual of sorts. A lot less bad things will happen going towards the imperium.

Eh there are barely any decent chaos books I just recently read daemonworld. Did not really like it.

After reading pawns of chaos and lord of the night I finished both yesterday. All the others seem kinda meeeeh. The only two recent good chaos books I have read is angel exterminatus( I feel bad for perturabo) and betrayer. Angron got screwed over.

Most chaos books are just loads of explosions and crumping the enemy most don't look into why they fight or why they do what they do. After reading some of the old chaos novels like slaves to darkness trilogy(fantasy), Pawns of chaos and Lord of the night they do the opposite.

They look at both factions and look at why they fight and make good reasons for both.

 Swastakowey wrote:
A question. you as an ordinary citizen with your friends and family are woken up by the noise of warfare. after some time you hear reports of the imperial guard coming to defend the town, you then hear from people that chaos forces are on their way to the town. Which way would you go? towards the imperium soldiers or towards the chaos soldiers?

Personally id take my chances heading towards the imperial men and women coming this way and in my opinion most people would. Screw getting tortured in untold missery by a bunch of psychos doing a ritual of sorts. A lot less bad things will happen going towards the imperium.

If you are from one of the countless planets that do not belong to the Imperium, the answer is easy: you follow your priests, your leaders, your teachers... chaos. Your family worship chaos too, you have to think about them. The imperial guard will kill or enslave them without a second thought.

If you are from an Imperial world and you are a mutant, or one of the wretched things that barely survive in a hive, the answer depends on your bravery: if you are a coward, stay with your imperial enslavers; if you want to be free, join chaos. You will at last have a chance, if you are strong enough. Imperials do not accept refugees. Chaos do, and the strongest will become the next generation of Champions.


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shinros wrote:
Eh there are barely any decent chaos books I just recently read daemonworld. Did not really like it.

However, the book is about a full world of chaos worshippers. There are full civilizations there. Merchants, priests, warriors... They are not lunatics yelling "kill maim burn". They have children, get in love, build cities.

Yeah that was interesting I just got peeved considering slaanesh is my favourite god is simply her/his forces getting owned. So that peeved me a little I guess. Plus I think the leader of the slaanesh group was an idiot that did not help much.

But I did learn being a slaanesh dreadnought is not all that bad if slaanesh likes you enough you gain normal sense through your dreadnought body. Thats the reason why chaos marines don't like becoming a dreadnought unless you are an iron warrior.

I still have to say pawns of chaos blew my mind I thought at first it was a standard book of war on a underdeveloped planet but it went all philosophical on me which surprised me and was interesting to read.

 da001 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
A question. you as an ordinary citizen with your friends and family are woken up by the noise of warfare. after some time you hear reports of the imperial guard coming to defend the town, you then hear from people that chaos forces are on their way to the town. Which way would you go? towards the imperium soldiers or towards the chaos soldiers?

Personally id take my chances heading towards the imperial men and women coming this way and in my opinion most people would. Screw getting tortured in untold missery by a bunch of psychos doing a ritual of sorts. A lot less bad things will happen going towards the imperium.

If you are from one of the countless planets that do not belong to the Imperium, the answer is easy: you follow your priests, your leaders, your teachers... chaos. Your family worship chaos too, you have to think about them. The imperial guard will kill or enslave them without a second thought.

If you are from an Imperial world and you are a mutant, or one of the wretched things that barely survive in a hive, the answer depends on your bravery: if you are a coward, stay with your imperial enslavers; if you want to be free, join chaos. You will at last have a chance, if you are strong enough. Imperials do not accept refugees. Chaos do, and the strongest will become the next generation of Champions.

I will disagree. The imperium may kill, may torture, may loot, may take you in, may let you go past etc. its up to the person in charge or the soldiers that find you. much like today and in the past. with the Chaos you can pretty much bet they will kill you.

And i have read no where that suggests the imperium does not accept refugess. its entirely up to the person in charge etc.

but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Erm most cases with chaos if you want to join them they let you. If earth was an imperial planet I would try everything in my power to pack up and join the tau.

"There are full civilizations there. Merchants, priests, warriors... They are not lunatics yelling "kill maim burn". They have children, get in love, build cities."

I in no way wanted to go there nor am i trying to be offensive but so did almost all the most horrid reigemes on earth (hitler cough, stalin cough, ganghis kan cough and the list goes on)

Er do you know how brutal a regime the IOM is if you read the fluff? There is a reason why chaos cultists is a huge issue and people rather staying with the Tau than the IOM.

 Swastakowey wrote:


but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Ok.
If I were a loyal imperial citizen, healthy, with a family to protect, I will go to the imperial side. If I were a mutant, hive scum or a homeless, my answer would be different.

Now your turn.
You have been born on a planet that has been twelve thousand years worshipping the god of Change. You are a medic with three hands and have two children with two heads each. Your tribe has been in peace for two hundred years. Then the Imperium comes, and you magically know how they treat people. Where will you go? To the fortress of your respected leader, who has sworn to protect you, or to the Imperial Guard?


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 Swastakowey wrote:
"There are full civilizations there. Merchants, priests, warriors... They are not lunatics yelling "kill maim burn". They have children, get in love, build cities."

I in no way wanted to go there nor am i trying to be offensive but so did almost all the most horrid reigemes on earth (hitler cough, stalin cough, ganghis kan cough and the list goes on)

And so did almost all the most nice regimes on earth (all of them cough). Nobody is 100% innocent, nobody is 100% guilty. Saying "my enemy is EVIL!!" means "I believe what my government says".

 da001 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Ok.
If I were a loyal imperial citizen, healthy, with a family to protect, I will go to the imperial side. If I were a mutant, hive scum or a homeless, my answer would be different.

Now your turn.
You have been born on a planet that has been twelve thousand years worshipping the god of Change. You are a medic with three hands and have two children with two heads each. Your tribe has been in peace for two hundred years. Then the Imperium comes, and you magically know how they treat people. Where will you go? To the fortress of your respected leader, who has sworn to protect you, or to the Imperial Guard?

I would go to where i know best obviously, the chaos, but given i am already corrupt, been infested with chaos, have children i need to protect, i would go to chaos. BUT, whos to say i wont get selected to be sacrificed to gain a favour from the gods for our guys to win. Also how much do i know about when chaos came to have control of the planet? But being infested already limits my choice down to one. Unlike my example which meant you still have a chance on both sides being "pure".

shinros wrote:
Er do you know how brutal a regime the IOM is if you read the fluff? There is a reason why chaos cultists is a huge issue and people rather staying with the Tau than the IOM.

Right on the spot.

There is a reason why the Inquisition kills anyone that goes near not-imperials, and specifically Chaos. If the average Joe of the Imperium knew what Chaos has to offer, he would instantly turn. This has been a constant in the setting. The Imperium is "the bloodiest regime imaginable".

I in no way wanted to go there nor am i trying to be offensive but so did almost all the most horrid reigemes on earth (hitler cough, stalin cough, ganghis kan cough and the list goes on)

And so did almost all the most nice regimes on earth (all of them cough). Nobody is 100% innocent, nobody is 100% guilty. Saying "my enemy is EVIL!!" means "I believe what my government says".

 Swastakowey wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Ok.
If I were a loyal imperial citizen, healthy, with a family to protect, I will go to the imperial side. If I were a mutant, hive scum or a homeless, my answer would be different.

Now your turn.
You have been born on a planet that has been twelve thousand years worshipping the god of Change. You are a medic with three hands and have two children with two heads each. Your tribe has been in peace for two hundred years. Then the Imperium comes, and you magically know how they treat people. Where will you go? To the fortress of your respected leader, who has sworn to protect you, or to the Imperial Guard?

I would go to where i know best obviously, the chaos, but given i am already corrupt, been infested with chaos, have children i need to protect, i would go to chaos. BUT, whos to say i wont get selected to be sacrificed to gain a favour from the gods for our guys to win. Also how much do i know about when chaos came to have control of the planet? But being infested already limits my choice down to one. Unlike my example which meant you still have a chance on both sides being "pure".

Why "infested"? Because you are a mutant?

You are not "infested". You have born in another place. Another culture. Perhaps with a mutation you are not guilty of.

Also, the Eccleesiarchy does human sacrifices. As long as you worship the Emperor, they do not care how you do it. And the Emperor itself eats countless humans on a daily basis. And the blood of the innocents is used to create the Aegis that protects the Grey Knights. The Imperium is the most brutal regime imaginable. It is defined just like that in the background.

One more thing: why "pure"? Pure according to who? The Emperor? Malcador, the Grey Knights, the Librarians, the astropaths, the navigators... all of them are mutants. Yet the Imperium uses them.

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 Swastakowey wrote:

Yes but chaos isnt exactly uniting. im fairly sure if there was no imperium there would not be many humans left. Dont chaos fight each other frequently? And frankly i know how bad the imperium can be but i would still stay with them as i see it as far far less evil than chaos.

Why so? There were lots of human worlds before the Imperium launched his Crusade, and they were faring well enough. Many Horus Heresy books talk about characters questioning themselves about the massacre they are doing. Countless civilizations reduced to ashes.

One thing is true though: the Imperium offers unity. That´s its greatest strength. Chaos believes in worlds that are strong by themselves, while the Imperium worlds help each other (technically). What will happen when the Light of the Astronomicon is no longer there? The Imperium unity is its greatest weakness too. It has one head. The fall of Terra is the fall of the Imperium. The fall of any Chaos world means nothing.

true but i ignore grey knights as i think they are rediculious but thats me. but i conceede that the imperium isnt clean nor perfect but in my opinion better than the alternative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to clarify i dont see mutants as evil or bad or anything, as long as they are natural or abhuman its fine. but chaos induced mutations are something i wouldnt tollerate.

Er they view all mutations as chaos even the natural ones. All mutants are to be killed/abhorred by the IOM.

Plus they still consider Abhumans mutants and treats them like crap they only keep them around because they are useful. In lord of the night a psyker had to flash her inqusition authority just to get the ogryn medical treatment from the hospital.

Then his throat was slit by the other retinue members because they did not give a crap about him because he was a mutant after this event guess where the psyker went? After talking with the night lord mind to mind. Right into the arms of the night lord she is traveling around with him now and if you know the fluff he was telling the truth.

Even then she was treated like crap and preacher tellings the crowd to hate and burn witches and lots of other things and her opinion counted for nothing why? Cause she is a mutant a psyker. All sanctioned pyskers are considered mutants Oh and they a murdering almost everyone in the under hive to find the night lord.

I know but I stated my view on the matter of mutation which differs from that of some of the imperium.

The imperium does not like differing opinions people with differing opinions are normally killed.

 carlos13th wrote:
They are both bad. Both as bad as each other? Maybe not but you are still choosing a lesser of two evils. Even the supposed good race Tau is still an expanding empire of join us or die.

Is join us or die necessarily evil though? Just to play a little 'devil's advocate', but in a universe in which species based genocide is viewed as a moral duty by most of the major star faring races, if you aren't for us you are quite literally against us.

Now there are some exceptions to this, but even those exceptions will still take their race over another when push comes to shove (the Eldar could be said to be one race that isn't 'join or die/just die because you aren't us', but they gladly bypass that to save a single Eldar).

Not saying I agree with that, but in kill or be killed environments....

From that view, the Tau are the most 'good' race in the game, probably followed by Eldar. Which, being we're essentially playing a riff on Tolkein in Space, is somewhat true. Elves are arrogant jerks, but they still 'fight the good fight' against evil for the most part.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I know but I stated my view on the matter of mutation which differs from that of some of the imperium.

Then you are lucky you are not in the Imperium. They will turn you into a lobotomized servitor for having "a view on the matter of mutation" that differs from imperial dogma. Your children will become cherubims. Unless you are in a forgeworld, of course. Then you would be tortured, killed and turn into food for your fellow enslaves.

Life is hell in the Imperium for most of the citizens. Even if you are "pure".

Tau is the closest thing to a "good faction" in the setting. Chaos and Imperium are really close in an evil-good scale.

shinros wrote:
To them they are more free than they were with than with the IOM

To them, maybe, but they're hardly unbiased. As I said, overall, Chaos violates a person more than the IOM. The IOM just brainwashes you and doesn't really care about your life. Chaos, meanwhile, does both of those things and also goes about corrupting your soul and body at its leisure. Did you not want horns all over your face? Too bad, you're getting them. Did you not want to be a forthing madman who slowly comes to live only for bloodshed? Too bad, you don't get a say in the matter. Life in a Chaos warband is also far less safe than a life in the IOM. Your leader and Daemon allies will have just as little regard for your life, and could well kill or maim you on a whim.

shinros wrote:
Then it comes to the debate are they slaves or servants? I view them as servants but everyone has a different opinion.

I'd say they're definetely more slaves than servants. As i've said, a Chaos worshiper is the plaything of their god, mind body and soul. The worshiper gets no say in the matter, they're not consulted about that tentacle that's appeared out of their torso.

shinros wrote:
He said he is a simple man and not a slave and tzeentch totally liked that and simply said well I could use a man like you when you feel like joining me just ask got a open spot for you.

I'm not sure that Chaos is actually so friendly and considerate, likely, it was just this author's spin on them. To Tzeentch especially, everybody is an expendable pawn for his convoluted schemes.

shinros wrote:
To me I think the book is trying to show that the gods would rather have people/servants than complete slaves/pawns to their whims and their plans.

Well, I'd say that the book is incorrect. The very thing with Chaos is that it corrupts people, twists them into what it wants them to be. This is the complete opposite of valuing individuality.

Also, I'll go ahead a point out that BL often do deviate a bit from what we see in the codexes and such. They are freelance writers, after all, with an artistic license to put their own spin on the setting.

Champions of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines and the like are toys for the gods. But this does not apply to the average person living there. The gods do not care at all about them. And someone needs to keep civilization going. Worlds where people actively worship the gods have been around since forever.

Live there can be hard, but it is not harder that living in a hive or in a forgeworld... as long as you are "pure", as long as you are not a mutant, as long as you do not express your opinion.

Edit: also, Tzeentch is always friendly and considerate. It is the way he is described. And Nurgle loves everything. The only chaos god that seems evil is Slaanesh (and Khorne in the last editions).

The difference between the two is that imperium, for all it's faults, still tries to do what it believes is the right thing to do, that is protect mankind in the long run.

Chaos just wants people to serve them in order to make themselves more powerful, to help them triumph in "the great game". They REALLY don't care whatsoever for their followers. At least the imperium cares, if not for individuals, for humanity as a whole. That said, the imperium is still pretty far from being a morally good place.

Heh, if we consider what the IoM considers good, then actually Chaos worshipers are quite good.
Can they kill Xenos? Heck yeah! Smaller Craftworlds and Exodite worlds come under assault from Slaaneshi forces all the time, kill a ton of them too. Orks get the boot, Tau get no mercy ect.ect.
Can they protect humanity? When the chips are down, yeah. 'Pawn of Chaos' shows this, and there are scenes in the Bastion Wars boots by Henry Zou where the Blood Gorgons defend the worlds they recruit from.
Can they fight against Chaos? Oh, absolutely. Emperor's Children and the World Eaters looove to shred each other into itty bitty bits.
Minister to the faithful? If you need a blessing, holla atcha Word Bearers.
Build cities, fortresses, and mechanical wonders? Dang skippy they do! Iron Warriors and Hereteks, all day and all night.
Execute masterful plans of such grace and subtly that Lord Inquisitors and Creed himself beg to be taught? Too true. Any Tzeentchian greater daemon or the Alpha Legion make mockeries of other factions planning. The Alpha Legion has managed to pull apart two separate SM chapters to bolster their own ranks, taking both established battle brothers and geneseed stocks.
Worship the God Emperor? No, though neither do most loyalist SM chapters. But yeah, they do tend to hate the Big E...

So yeah, it's ideological.

This is also what chaos followers believe. That is what the Book of Lorgar says. Only with the help of Chaos may humanity prosper.

It is true, however, that the gods of chaos do not care much for humanity. They only care about their Game.

Also I am not sure the Imperium cares about humanity. They massacre anyone with a different opinion. They are described as the most brutal, bloodthirsty regime ever.

"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement.

Now demons of chaos are nothing more than mindless servants for their gods, they seek to bring glory and power to their respective god. When a demonhost invades a human planet there have been tales of nurgle demons experimenting (with plague) on human captives, khorne demons hunting terrified humans through the shells of ruined cities, slannesh demons torturing captives just cause and tzeentch demons often doing a combination of what was already mentioned. All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror.

These are not the actions of good beings, these are the actions of monsters"

A friend of mine who collects chaos as an army has the opinion above. He shall be reffered to as Runicmadhamster.

He is talking about daemons.

Daemons are Chaos unleashed. Unrestrained, pure, undiluted. They are brutal and extremely hostile to any form of life.

But... evil? Daemons do not have free will. They do what they must. They are a natural force.

Edit: That is what Lorgar and the Word Bearers, and Magnus and the Thousand Sons, try to do: harness the power of Chaos. To help mankind. Because they believe that this is the right thing to do.

"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement. "

So this isnt considered evil to you? the people who willingly worship someone or something who kills for fun is not evil?

"All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror. "

Rewarding those who kill for fun and personal gain is not to you considered evil?

And anything joining chaos with good intentions is deluded and chances are those intentions will become twisted and changed into something sinister.

Lord of Lustria wrote:
I know i will take some flak for this but chaos space marines are not always that evil. For example, the alpha legion started out with admirable intentions, but were branded as pure evil so they became evil. Another example is the iron warriors; the main reason for their rebellion was the way the emperor used them as absolute fodder, decimating their legion. Also, some chaos marines are born into being chaos, such as the marines created by daemonoccuba. Can you really say that all of them are any more evil than the imperium?

You wait for the End Times. The Alpha Warriors play a long con, and the next to the Emperor they will have played the longest, most committed con by deliberately committing to chaos. When the End Time comes, they will turn on the other chaos legions. The Imperium will not accept them of course and will purge them, but it won't matter to the Alpha Legion. They will have pulled off the greatest deception in history and by one of the lynch pins do the Grim Dark becoming a little less grim.

So after reading the thread here are my thoughts on nature of the chaos gods.

The chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement.

Now demons of chaos are nothing more than mindless servants for their gods, they seek to bring glory and power to their respective god. When a demonhost invades a human planet there have been tales of nurgle demons experimenting (with plague) on human captives, khorne demons hunting terrified humans through the shells of ruined cities, slannesh demons torturing captives just cause and tzeentch demons often doing a combination of what was already mentioned. All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror.

And as for the imperium, well i called it backward, xenophobic and technophobic. Its a sham, a mockery of humanity. Its populations enslaved and stupefied

To me, Chaos seems to feed ambition endlessly and without consequence. It's the power that totally corrupts. It's not evil in itself but quickly leads to evil in the hands of humans. The chaos gods themselves are embodiments of a different morality. Slannesh doesn't seem evil other than satisfying endless excess, which isn't healthy. Many humans are tempted by chaos in the belief they can do good, not evil, but it's a shortcut to power that corrupts absolutely.

The imperium is probably seen as evil by chaos, as it's opposed to chaos in many ways. The imperium is a stagnant monotheistic entity in which most people live ordered lives of no opportunity or attainment. Chaos at least offers freedom of worship to one or more gods and presumably rewards those with the greatest ambition.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
To me, Chaos seems to feed ambition endlessly and without consequence. It's the power that totally corrupts. It's not evil in itself but quickly leads to evil in the hands of humans. The chaos gods themselves are embodiments of a different morality. Slannesh doesn't seem evil other than satisfying endless excess, which isn't healthy. Many humans are tempted by chaos in the belief they can do good, not evil, but it's a shortcut to power that corrupts absolutely.

The imperium is probably seen as evil by chaos, as it's opposed to chaos in many ways. The imperium is a stagnant monotheistic entity in which most people live ordered lives of no opportunity or attainment. Chaos at least offers freedom of worship to one or more gods and presumably rewards those with the greatest ambition.

So what are demons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to your point about slannesh......

Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Dark God dedicated to the pursuit of earthly gratification and the overthrow of all decent behaviour, as well as hedonism and pleasure for its own sake. He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. Wherever mortals are ruled by their own unquenchable desires, the Dark Prince of Chaos is there in the shadows, whispering, tempting, and feasting on a banquet of souls. But this is true in all things, not just carnal pleasures. Those who desire to indulge in the finest culinary delights, the most beautiful artworks, even the most sensual clothing, could all be amongst Slaanesh’s disciples. Just as importantly, Slaanesh is also the god of perfection. The singer striving for the most beautiful song or the warrior who seeks the perfect fighting techniques, both could be devotees of Slaanesh.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh

Yeah slannesh is evil, all the chaos gods are

Indeed runic chaos and IOM are just extremes of the chaos and order spectrum yes there is some capacity to do some good but also a lot of evil.

As we all know extremes are never good and moderation does not exist in 40k

Nearly every race is opposed and disgusted by Chaos.

I say that is a sign Chaos is not a good thing.


Not to mention that followers of Chaos are in endless suffering, especially when they die. (Although, I read that some of the Nurgle worshippers are immune to pain, or something like that.)

shinros wrote:
Indeed runic chaos and IOM are just extremes of the chaos and order spectrum yes there is some capacity to do some good but also a lot of evil.

As well all know extremes are never good and moderation does not exist in 40k

Yeah thats true. Although the Imperiums version of order is bloodstained, brutal and cruel.

Warning: wall of text.

 Swastakowey wrote:
"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement. "

So this isnt considered evil to you? the people who willingly worship someone or something who kills for fun is not evil?

I don´t see how a god can be evil. Do you think the gods kill "for the fun"? Everything dies, no matter the religion. Blaming the gods does not work, because they do not have free will. The god of violence (call it Morrigan, Ares, Khorne, whatever) can not stop being violent. Chaos gods are raw emotions. It is like calling an earthquake "evil". Same goes for daemons.

And your friend is wrong: Nurgle loves his followers whatever they do, and the rest of the gods ignore most of their followers. They have near zero interest in what humans do. They only care (a little) about their Champions.

"All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror. "

Rewarding those who kill for fun and personal gain is not to you considered evil?

This is a simplification, and imperial propaganda.

First things first: I don´t see the Emperor condemning the countless atrocities made in his name (as a "good god" would).

1: Tzeentch will (perhaps) reward you if you kill for personal gain, because it favors ambition. But ambition in itself is not evil. And hope is part of its work too.
2: Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.
3: Nurgle loves everything. Killing something (anything) unless it is strictly necessary is bad in its eyes.
4: Slaanesh will encourage you to kill for fun. Then again, Slaanesh is a jerk. It will probably not reward you because of that, though.
5: The countless minor chaos gods will reward you if they want to. Each case would be different.

And anything joining chaos with good intentions is deluded and chances are those intentions will become twisted and changed into something sinister.

There are civilizations out there that worship the gods and have lasted for thousand of years. They (as a whole) are not "something sinister". Or not more sinister that the Imperium, the "most brutal" regime ever to exist.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

shinros wrote:
Indeed runic chaos and IOM are just extremes of the chaos and order spectrum yes there is some capacity to do some good but also a lot of evil.

As well all know extremes are never good and moderation does not exist in 40k

Yeah thats true. Although the Imperiums version of order is bloodstained, brutal and cruel.

Exactly. This is another iteration of Chaos versus Order. There was a fantasy author called Michael Moorcock that wrote about Chaos and Order. GW took many of his ideas (including the eight-pointed star for Chaos).

At the current moment in the setting, both Chaos and Order have gone extreme, and thus they are highly dangerous to life. They are at open war with each other. But this doesn't mean that Chaos (or Order) are evil in themselves.

Broly wrote:
Nearly every race is opposed and disgusted by Chaos.

I say that is a sign Chaos is not a good thing.


Not to mention that followers of Chaos are in endless suffering, especially when they die. (Although, I read that some of the Nurgle worshippers are immune to pain, or something like that.)

In this setting, nearly every faction is opposed and disgusted by most other factions.

And everyone (human) end in endless suffering after death in this setting. The warp is full (made?) of souls in eternal agony. Nurgle followers are the exception. They welcome pain and learn to love it, or are completely immune to it, depending on the writer.

Lord of Lustria wrote:
Btw I know that 99.99999% of chaos marines are hitler In space

Chaos Marines make the Nazis look like Boy Scouts with anger management issues.

 carlos13th wrote:
Khorne was more interesting when there was more emphasis on the Martial honour and pride aspect. Now it seems Khorne is way to blood and guts above all else.

No, I like Khorne more when the thing he likes the most is when lots of people die at one time and one place. It makes Exterminatus seem even more of a pyrrhic victory than it already is. You kill a billion souls in one blast? Khorne wins.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:


Also to your point about slannesh......

Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Dark God dedicated to the pursuit of earthly gratification and the overthrow of all decent behaviour, as well as hedonism and pleasure for its own sake. He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. Wherever mortals are ruled by their own unquenchable desires, the Dark Prince of Chaos is there in the shadows, whispering, tempting, and feasting on a banquet of souls. But this is true in all things, not just carnal pleasures. Those who desire to indulge in the finest culinary delights, the most beautiful artworks, even the most sensual clothing, could all be amongst Slaanesh’s disciples. Just as importantly, Slaanesh is also the god of perfection. The singer striving for the most beautiful song or the warrior who seeks the perfect fighting techniques, both could be devotees of Slaanesh.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh

Yeah slannesh is evil, all the chaos gods are

What in that description makes them evil? Slannesh is a god of excess and pleasure. As I said, chaos feeds unlimited ambition, and Slaanesh specialises in selfishness for self satisfaction. But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin. Slaanesh strives for perfection and beauty. I think it's better to think of the chaos gods as forces of nature rather than monsters that are easily characterised as being obviously evil. There's no reason for example a Slaanesh worshiper need be evil. It's easy to see how they could go down that path but even in your quoted passage it describes how their devotion can manifest itself in different complex ways, it's not all about tits, sexual gratification = evil.

 da001 wrote:
Warning: wall of text.

 Swastakowey wrote:
"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement. "

So this isnt considered evil to you? the people who willingly worship someone or something who kills for fun is not evil?

I don´t see how a god can be evil. Do you think the gods kill "for the fun"? Everything dies, no matter the religion. Blaming the gods does not work, because they do not have free will. The god of violence (call it Morrigan, Ares, Khorne, whatever) can not stop being violent. Chaos gods are raw emotions. It is like calling an earthquake "evil". Same goes for daemons.

And your friend is wrong: Nurgle loves his followers whatever they do, and the rest of the gods ignore most of their followers. They have near zero interest in what humans do. They only care (a little) about their Champions.

He was quoting me. And i was referring to demonic followers not human followers. And why cant a god be evil? Was it somehow not nurgles fault that he created deadly and toxic plauges that have wiped out billions? These plagues were not naturally occurring nurgle made them. You may say " Nurgle cant stop making plagues, its in his nature", well that doesn't make him any less evil.

"All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror. "

Rewarding those who kill for fun and personal gain is not to you considered evil?

This is a simplification, and imperial propaganda.

First things first: I don´t see the Emperor condemning the countless atrocities made in his name (as a "good god" would).

1: Tzeentch will (perhaps) reward you if you kill for personal gain, because it favors ambition. But ambition in itself is not evil. And hope is part of its work too.
2: Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.
3: Nurgle loves everything. Killing something (anything) unless it is strictly necessary is bad in its eyes.
4: Slaanesh will encourage you to kill for fun. Then again, Slaanesh is a jerk. It will probably not reward you because of that, though.
5: The countless minor chaos gods will reward you if they want to. Each case would be different.

Well he was quoting me and i hate the imperium so its probably not imperial propaganda. I wasn't trying to make the emperor out to be "good god", i think happen to think he is useless nearly dead guy who people get sacrificed too. And your point about nurgle loving everything thing is wrong, he makes plagues that wipe out billions og lives, he can he reconcile his work killing untold billions with his love for everything? And hope is part of Tzeentch's work? I would like to see some evidence of that.

In the chaos space marine codex there is a tale of a space marine chapter that was driven to insanity by Tzeenetch when he gave them the ability to hear every lie ever spoken at once. Let me ask you is this the action of a good entity?

First things first: I don´t see the Emperor condemning the countless atrocities made in his name (as a "good god" would).

Because there is no proof to suggest that the Emperor is even aware of what's going on in the real world. He may, truly, just be a corpse on a chair. He is not, definitively, doing *anything* in the setting of 40K. Lots of people (both fans and people in-universe) like to *believe* that he is, but there is no proof to that, just lots of coincidences.

Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.

"Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows."

Nurgle loves his followers whatever they do, and the rest of the gods ignore most of their followers. They have near zero interest in what humans do. They only care (a little) about their Champions.

So long as "whatever they do" is spread plagues and pestilence, yes. If not? It is very possible to earn Nurgle's disfavor, and maybe he turns your blood into an assload of flies or makes you grotesquely fat or gives you a flaming skull head while you're at work at mid-Hive 338B-12. Kind of hard to explain that to your friends.

carlos13th wrote:
Khorne was more interesting when there was more emphasis on the Martial honour and pride aspect. Now it seems Khorne is way to blood and guts above all else.

When was this? Khorne has always been the "bloody-handed god of carnage and slaughter" (Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness).

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:


Also to your point about slannesh......

Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Dark God dedicated to the pursuit of earthly gratification and the overthrow of all decent behaviour, as well as hedonism and pleasure for its own sake. He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. Wherever mortals are ruled by their own unquenchable desires, the Dark Prince of Chaos is there in the shadows, whispering, tempting, and feasting on a banquet of souls. But this is true in all things, not just carnal pleasures. Those who desire to indulge in the finest culinary delights, the most beautiful artworks, even the most sensual clothing, could all be amongst Slaanesh’s disciples. Just as importantly, Slaanesh is also the god of perfection. The singer striving for the most beautiful song or the warrior who seeks the perfect fighting techniques, both could be devotees of Slaanesh.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh

Yeah slannesh is evil, all the chaos gods are

What in that description makes them evil? Slannesh is a god of excess and pleasure. As I said, chaos feeds unlimited ambition, and Slaanesh specialises in selfishness for self satisfaction. But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin. Slaanesh strives for perfection and beauty. I think it's better to think of the chaos gods as forces of nature rather than monsters that are easily characterised as being obviously evil. There's no reason for example a Slaanesh worshiper need be evil. It's easy to see how they could go down that path but even in your quoted passage it describes how their devotion can manifest itself in different complex ways, it's not all about tits, sexual gratification = evil.

He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. So right there you can already see a bad trend beginning, being the master of excess in all things isnt good and Obsession usually doesn't end well. And i dont view Slannesh as evil because of christian morality/sin, thats irrelevant in my view, its the fact that slanneshi followers will torture in the name of their god and instead of intervening and stopping it (like a normal moral person would) slannesh encourages his followers on. Thats not a good act, its a evil one.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin.

Implying that Christian morality/sin isn't valid in an argument about something being evil is pretty silly, don't you think? There's no point in arguing whether or not something is "good" or "evil" if you don't have a standard of exactly WHAT good and evil are in the first place. If you wish to argue that morality, Christian or otherwise, has no meaning, then the title of the thread should be changed from "Chaos not as evil as you thought?" to "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil." One cannot logically argue "not as evil as you thought?" if there's no such thing as "evil" in the first place.

As an aside, "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil" is one of the primary religious tenants of most Chaos cults. But again, that's irrelevant to the thread with its current title.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin.

Implying that Christian morality/sin isn't valid in an argument about something being evil is pretty silly, don't you think? There's no point in arguing whether or not something is "good" or "evil" if you don't have a standard of exactly WHAT good and evil are in the first place. If you wish to argue that morality, Christian or otherwise, has no meaning, then the title of the thread should be changed from "Chaos not as evil as you thought?" to "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil." One cannot logically argue "not as evil as you thought?" if there's no such thing as "evil" in the first place.

As an aside, "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil" is one of the primary religious tenants of most Chaos cults. But again, that's irrelevant to the thread with its current title.

That would tie back in to my original comment about moral relativism having no part in the setting of 40K, especially not in the Imperium.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

He was quoting me. And i was referring to demonic followers not human followers. And why cant a god be evil? Was it somehow not nurgles fault that he created deadly and toxic plauges that have wiped out billions? These plagues were not naturally occurring nurgle made them. You may say " Nurgle cant stop making plagues, its in his nature", well that doesn't make him any less evil.

Then a sickness is evil? An earthquake? Nurgle is made of emotions. He has no free will.

The word "evil" implies that there is a choice. You can do "good things" and "evil things", and you freely choose to do evil. Nurgle is the plague god. It has no choice.

And what about Khorne? He is the personification of violence. Is violence evil?

Well he was quoting me and i hate the imperium so its probably not imperial propaganda. I wasn't trying to make the emperor out to be "good god", i think happen to think he is useless nearly dead guy who people get sacrificed too. And your point about nurgle loving everything thing is wrong, he makes plagues that wipe out billions og lives, he can he reconcile his work killing untold billions with his love for everything? And hope is part of Tzeentch's work? I would like to see some evidence of that.

It is imperial propaganda. You think Chaos are "the bad guys" and are quoting the imperial version of the story to prove it. Playing Chaos does not change the fact.

Tzeentch is change, hope, ambition, the possibility of success. And Nurgle loves everything. It is the god of life. Get a copy of the Codex: Chaos Daemons or, even better, a copy of Realm of Chaos. He lives in a garden where everything lives and prosper forever. It only gets angry whem someone hurts its followers or its creations.

In the chaos space marine codex there is a tale of a space marine chapter that was driven to insanity by Tzeenetch when he gave them the ability to hear every lie ever spoken at once. Let me ask you is this the action of a good entity?

They were its enemies. Attacking your enemies is the action of an evil entity then?
That makes everyone evil.

 Psienesis wrote:

First things first: I don´t see the Emperor condemning the countless atrocities made in his name (as a "good god" would).

Because there is no proof to suggest that the Emperor is even aware of what's going on in the real world. He may, truly, just be a corpse on a chair. He is not, definitively, doing *anything* in the setting of 40K. Lots of people (both fans and people in-universe) like to *believe* that he is, but there is no proof to that, just lots of coincidences.

I was answering to this: the Chaos gods are evil because they do not condemn what their followers do, as a good god would.
Also, this is off-topic, and clearly deserves another thread. I do believe the Emperor does a lot of things in the setting: the Acts of Faith or the living saints, to begin with. And he has a presence in the warp: the Light of the Astronomicon. He is also considered a god, or at least an extremely powerful entity by the Chaos Daemons.

Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.

"Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows."

This sentence is overused. There are many sources depicting Khorne with a sense of martial honor, even in 6th edition. See Chaos Daemons, the feud between Slaanesh and Khorne or the Skulltaker entry. Khorne cares a lot for who was the owner of the skull given to it.

Nurgle loves his followers whatever they do, and the rest of the gods ignore most of their followers. They have near zero interest in what humans do. They only care (a little) about their Champions.

So long as "whatever they do" is spread plagues and pestilence, yes. If not? It is very possible to earn Nurgle's disfavor, and maybe he turns your blood into an assload of flies or makes you grotesquely fat or gives you a flaming skull head while you're at work at mid-Hive 338B-12. Kind of hard to explain that to your friends.

From the perspective of Nurgle, it is an act of love. Evil is when you do bad things to others on purpose. Not when you try to help someone and this person does not appreciate your efforts. Nurgle believes he is doing good, and this, by itself, makes it a "good" entity... if good and evil can be applied to creatures like it, something I do not believe. Nurgle is the concept of pestilence, decay and rebirth. It has no free will.

carlos13th wrote:
Khorne was more interesting when there was more emphasis on the Martial honour and pride aspect. Now it seems Khorne is way to blood and guts above all else.

When was this? Khorne has always been the "bloody-handed god of carnage and slaughter" (Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness).

What?
I cannot do it now, but give me time and I will give you some quotes. Some of them from Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:


He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. So right there you can already see a bad trend beginning, being the master of excess in all things isnt good and Obsession usually doesn't end well. And i dont view Slannesh as evil because of christian morality/sin, thats irrelevant in my view, its the fact that slanneshi followers will torture in the name of their god and instead of intervening and stopping it (like a normal moral person would) slannesh encourages his followers on. Thats not a good act, its a evil one.

Slaanesh is the concept of excess. You keep comparing it to a "normal moral person". It is not a person. Morality does not apply.

Think of the Christian God. His followers do terrible things every single day. Does He intervene and stops them? I don´t know your religion, but this applies to any god ever. Do a god intervene and stop their followers?

Also, Slaanesh includes the concept of lust. Do you think lust is evil? The emotion? Slaanesh is made of emotions.

A naturally occurring sickness isn't evil, just like naturally occurring earthquake isn't. But a sickness/earthquake made by a entity that kills billions, and was done with the intention to kill billions, is evil. And just stating the Tzeentch is hope is not evidence.

And while violence isnt evil Khorne is, the guy is a butcher, a god who values life as little is Khorne as does is a repugnant tyrant. And its not imperial propaganda just because this also happens to be the imperial line. I came to these conclusions myself after examining the facts and evidence at hand.

Each of the chaos gods is responsible for the deaths of untold billions and encourages their followers (demonic, human ot other) to kill and main in their names and reward them or it. Tyrants do that sort of thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slaanesh is the concept of excess. You keep comparing it to a "normal moral person". It is not a person. Morality does not apply.

Think of the Christian God. His followers do terrible things every single day. Does He intervene and stops them? I don´t know your religion, but this applies to any god ever. Do a god intervene and stop their followers?

Also, Slaanesh includes the concept of lust. Do you think lust is evil? The emotion? Slaanesh is made of emotions.

I am a atheist i dont have a religion, so lets not derail this thread with what i think about the Christian God.

And no i dont think lust is evil, but i think too much lust can lead to evil and thats what Slannesh promotes, too much of everything. And the reason i keep coming back to a normal moral perosn is because thats the only baseline of morality i have to compare these actions to.

@Howard A Treesong
Just a little thing here that I need to say: in my humble opinion, Jack Vance is the best writer ever.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
A naturally occurring sickness isn't evil, just like naturally occurring earthquake isn't. But a sickness/earthquake made by a entity that kills billions, and was done with the intention to kill billions, is evil. And just stating the Tzeentch is hope is not evidence.

And while violence isnt evil Khorne is, the guy is a butcher, a god who values life as little is Khorne as does is a repugnant tyrant. And its not imperial propaganda just because this also happens to be the imperial line. I came to these conclusions myself after examining the facts and evidence at hand.

Each of the chaos gods is responsible for the deaths of untold billions and encourages their followers (demonic, human ot other) to kill and main in their names and reward them or it. Tyrants do that sort of thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slaanesh is the concept of excess. You keep comparing it to a "normal moral person". It is not a person. Morality does not apply.

Think of the Christian God. His followers do terrible things every single day. Does He intervene and stops them? I don´t know your religion, but this applies to any god ever. Do a god intervene and stop their followers?

Also, Slaanesh includes the concept of lust. Do you think lust is evil? The emotion? Slaanesh is made of emotions.

I am a atheist i dont have a religion, so lets not derail this thread with what i think about the Christian God.

And no i dont think lust is evil, but i think too much lust can lead to evil and thats what Slannesh promotes, too much of everything. And the reason i keep coming back to a normal moral perosn is because thats the only baseline of morality i have to compare these actions to.

But chaos gods are made of emotions. Khorne is the personification of violence. Slaanesh includes lust and gluttony, and excess in at its forms.

You talk about the gods as if they were humans or some kind of xeno breed. They are emotions, concepts, ideas, metaphors, dreams, legends... they do not have a body, they do not exist in the real world. Morality does not apply.

And you have another baseline of morality to compare actions to: the lack of morality. Warp entities are many times described as predators: is an eagle evil? A wolf? A chicken eating a worm? A virus? You know lots of things that lack a sense of morality: they are what they are. Something cannot be evil if it has no choice. Khorne cannot stop being violent because violence defines it because He is Violence incarnate, the raw emotion. Saying "Khorne is evil" means "violence is evil".

I was answering to this: the Chaos gods are evil because they do not condemn what their followers do, as a good god would.
Also, this is off-topic, and clearly deserves another thread. I do believe the Emperor does a lot of things in the setting: the Acts of Faith or the living saints, to begin with. And he has a presence in the warp: the Light of the Astronomicon. He is also considered a god, or at least an extremely powerful entity by the Chaos Daemons.

The Astronomican predates his internment into the Golden Throne. It is not a sign that he is a god.

Acts of Faith, Saints, etc. are all coincidences. None of them are proof that the Emperor is a god. Acts of Faith, specifically, "appear miraculous to the untrained". This is not proof of a true miracle, simply a suggestion that people are prone to believe.

Daemons lie, often seemingly in contradiction to themselves, to mislead and beguile the unwary.

This sentence is overused. There are many sources depicting Khorne with a sense of martial honor, even in 6th edition. See Chaos Daemons, the feud between Slaanesh and Khorne or the Skulltaker entry. Khorne cares a lot for who was the owner of the skull given to it.

Not at all overused, just useful in indicating that Khorne is not solely a god of soldiers, but also of wanton butchers, murderers and others who shed blood. While he is more-favorable to those who take the lives of other killers, he is as likely to award the patient hunter of men (or other sentients) or the blood-soaked butcher who slaughters entire populations. The World Eaters would be a great example... do you think they differentiated between civilian and military populations?

Khorne has the "martial pride" thing as one of his aspects, but this is a reference to the way in which some groups worship him, not an exclusive part of his portfolio, and not one which is exemplified to the exclusion of him being the Blood God. He is the patron of many warrior-cults on a broad variety of worlds, but is, in the overarching sense, the god of warfare, carnage, bloodshed and slaughter. He is a god of war in all of its forms.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin.

Implying that Christian morality/sin isn't valid in an argument about something being evil is pretty silly, don't you think? There's no point in arguing whether or not something is "good" or "evil" if you don't have a standard of exactly WHAT good and evil are in the first place. If you wish to argue that morality, Christian or otherwise, has no meaning, then the title of the thread should be changed from "Chaos not as evil as you thought?" to "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil." One cannot logically argue "not as evil as you thought?" if there's no such thing as "evil" in the first place.

As an aside, "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil" is one of the primary religious tenants of most Chaos cults. But again, that's irrelevant to the thread with its current title.

Biblical morality tends to frown upon lust, sex, things that involve self gratification. But these aren't actually 'evil' things in themselves IMO. Promiscuity is wrong according to the bible, but in a more rational light it's not 'wrong' or 'evil'. How you approach such behaviour is dependent on the individual.

I just don't think that chaos=evil unless you have a rather puritanical view of certain motives. Slaanesh is about pleasure, beauty and experience. They can drive people to carry out evil acts but they aren't immoral in themselves. Chaos gods themselves are probably amoral, because they value certain things like pleasure to the expense of all else. It doesn't make them evil, it means their followers can commit evil acts and they don't care, but that's not quite the same thing.

 Psienesis wrote:

I was answering to this: the Chaos gods are evil because they do not condemn what their followers do, as a good god would.
Also, this is off-topic, and clearly deserves another thread. I do believe the Emperor does a lot of things in the setting: the Acts of Faith or the living saints, to begin with. And he has a presence in the warp: the Light of the Astronomicon. He is also considered a god, or at least an extremely powerful entity by the Chaos Daemons.

The Astronomican predates his internment into the Golden Throne. It is not a sign that he is a god.

Acts of Faith, Saints, etc. are all coincidences. None of them are proof that the Emperor is a god. Acts of Faith, specifically, "appear miraculous to the untrained". This is not proof of a true miracle, simply a suggestion that people are prone to believe.

Daemons lie, often seemingly in contradiction to themselves, to mislead and beguile the unwary.

That´s a really interesting topic that deserves its own thread. It will derail this one.

This sentence is overused. There are many sources depicting Khorne with a sense of martial honor, even in 6th edition. See Chaos Daemons, the feud between Slaanesh and Khorne or the Skulltaker entry. Khorne cares a lot for who was the owner of the skull given to it.

Not at all overused, just useful in indicating that Khorne is not solely a god of soldiers, but also of wanton butchers, murderers and others who shed blood. While he is more-favorable to those who take the lives of other killers, he is as likely to award the patient hunter of men (or other sentients) or the blood-soaked butcher who slaughters entire populations. The World Eaters would be a great example... do you think they differentiated between civilian and military populations?

Khorne has the "martial pride" thing as one of his aspects, but this is a reference to the way in which some groups worship him, not an exclusive part of his portfolio, and not one which is exemplified to the exclusion of him being the Blood God. He is the patron of many warrior-cults on a broad variety of worlds, but is, in the overarching sense, the god of warfare, carnage, bloodshed and slaughter. He is a god of war in all of its forms.

But that´s the problem: people see Khorne as the god of carnage and miss the martial/soldier/honour part. This is the reason I am giving emphasis to the "honourable side". I am yet to find someone who sees Khorne as "solely a god of soldiers".

I have not access to the Realm of Chaos books right now, but this is from Rogue Trader: Ork Freebooters. Pag 14, Khorne Stormboyz: "Worship of the Chaos Powers is not tolerated amongst sane and sensible Orks, but the Cult is rampant amongst Freebooter Stormboyz. The Blood God epitomizes the martial virtues which they hold dear, including a harsh disciplinary code, binding rules governing their conduct as honourable warriors and, of course, a life of almost continous blood-letting".

I am pretty sure there is something similar in the old Realm of Chaos. And in the previous codex we had a quote (Harkan Ironfist) in the Berserker entry about Khorne and honour.

Also from Liber Chaotica (Warriors of Khorne entry): “he is the God of war and blood and violence, and all that fight in some way subscribes to his religion”;
[About all Champions of Chaos] “It is a common belief among them that they must first gain glory and honour for their gods”;
“Others, especially the Blood God´s chosen (…) intentionally seek out the hardest modes of life and the most fearsome opponents to do battle with”

 da001 wrote:

Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.

"Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows."

This sentence is overused. There are many sources depicting Khorne with a sense of martial honor, even in 6th edition. See Chaos Daemons, the feud between Slaanesh and Khorne or the Skulltaker entry. Khorne cares a lot for who was the owner of the skull given to it.

You mean like how if the being Skulltaker wants to challenge doesn't want to fight, he'll cut them down?

I have not access to the Realm of Chaos books right now, but this is from Rogue Trader: Ork Freebooters. Pag 14, Khorne Stormboyz: "Worship of the Chaos Powers is not tolerated amongst sane and sensible Orks, but the Cult is rampant amongst Freebooter Stormboyz. The Blood God epitomizes the martial virtues which they hold dear, including a harsh disciplinary code, binding rules governing their conduct as honourable warriors and, of course, a life of almost continous blood-letting".

I am pretty sure there is something similar in the old Realm of Chaos. And in the previous codex we had a quote (Harkan Ironfist) in the Berserker entry about Khorne and honour.

Also from Liber Chaotica (Warriors of Khorne entry): “he is the God of war and blood and violence, and all that fight in some way subscribes to his religion”;
[About all Champions of Chaos] “It is a common belief among them that they must first gain glory and honour for their gods”;
“Others, especially the Blood God´s chosen (…) intentionally seek out the hardest modes of life and the most fearsome opponents to do battle with”

What this is doing, though, as I tried to point out, is taking one form in which Khorne is worshiped and trying to make it a universal constant, cutting out all the other ways in which the veneration of the Blood God is expressed, in order to make Khorne less evil. It's a selective reading of the fluff of the god in order to force Chaos to fit into a constraint that is not supported by the fluff or themes of 40K. While 40K doesn't really have any "good guys", there are certainly those that are a whole lot less-evil than others. Moorcock did this much better, of course, in presenting the duality of Chaos, but that is not really present in 40K.

So, while a specific Kult of Orks might worship Khorne in that way, not all who worship Khorne do so. There are tribes of feral barbarians on lost worlds, Chaos-held worlds, Feral Worlds, whatever, that venerate Khorne through wanton slaughter and carnage, living out the Conan axiom to its fullest.

The Warp and The Imperium will always be a two edged sword in the decision of who is the "evil" one because both are as bad as each other, but both have their intentions.

The Imperium's intentions are to preserve humanity and to keep the human race from going to extinction, However the method makes them seem very much oppressive and Xenophobic as well as having the odd fanatic in power, add in some witch hunters with weapon's beyond the scale of current nuclear weapons and give the whole race a devotion to a rotting carcass with added blasphemy of AI, and you have one really messed up society.

On the other side of the Argument we have the Chaos Gods, and the what the gods represent can actually be perceived as something quite light:
Khorne: The god of martial honour and order
Tzeench: God of change and change can be quite good
Nurgle: God of life
Slannesh: God of pleasure and happiness

What makes them seem so bad is that their method of going about things with makes them seem barbaric and so dehumanised that its practically alien to us, as whilst Khorne Is the god of martial honour, his method is usually to cleave skulls and throw blood everywhere, Tzeench uses Change for scheming against his brothers... and everyone else for the matter.. Nurgle is god of life, however he must destroy and decay other life to create his own and Slannesh, whilst god of pleasure is one of perverse pleasure and... well... everyone gets Slannesh's mojo by now...

The point is both are as good as each other but by the method they go about it, they are both barbaric and totally alien to us. The reason why a lot of people see Chaos being so the "evil" one is because a lot of we read is being perceived through the eyes of the Imperium, we only have a few novels through the eyes of Chaos compared to the amount of novels with the Imperium in them imo.

Also this piece by ADB is a great read about the misconceptions of Chaos: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271640-misconceptions-about-csm/page-4#entry3316051

Hope this helps

ADB's post there doesn't make it sound like Chaos is any less-evil than is otherwise presented. In fact, it makes it seem like it's the infighting and politicking of the Imperium turned up way past 11, because at least in the Imperium, there is always the Inquisition to step in if things seem to be getting out of hand between the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum or the Space Marines and the Munitorum or the Ecclesiarchy and the Arbites and so forth and so on.

Chaos, as presented there, is (of course) a selfish and self-centered society where the weak suffer and the strong rule. It's a dog-eat-dog, kill-or-be-killed (at best) lifestyle where you can, ultimately, trust no one, not even yourself, as the Ruinous Powers themselves, and the proto-sentience of the Warp in general, can cause even your own body and mind to rebel against you.

 Psienesis wrote:
ADB's post there doesn't make it sound like Chaos is any less-evil than is otherwise presented. In fact, it makes it seem like it's the infighting and politicking of the Imperium turned up way past 11, because at least in the Imperium, there is always the Inquisition to step in if things seem to be getting out of hand between the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum or the Space Marines and the Munitorum or the Ecclesiarchy and the Arbites and so forth and so on.

Chaos, as presented there, is (of course) a selfish and self-centered society where the weak suffer and the strong rule. It's a dog-eat-dog, kill-or-be-killed (at best) lifestyle where you can, ultimately, trust no one, not even yourself, as the Ruinous Powers themselves, and the proto-sentience of the Warp in general, can cause even your own body and mind to rebel against you.

Sound's like high school
It also sounds like they're all Inquisitors. No one to answer to but your allies, no need to explain to your underlings. You can say with a straight face "My god said so" and have that be perfect justification. You can raze worlds, steal from other factions, even have dissidents publicly shot for any (or no) reason at all.

Heh, "Radical Inquisitors: A CSM codex supplement"

 Wilytank wrote:

 da001 wrote:

"Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows."

This sentence is overused. There are many sources depicting Khorne with a sense of martial honor, even in 6th edition. See Chaos Daemons, the feud between Slaanesh and Khorne or the Skulltaker entry. Khorne cares a lot for who was the owner of the skull given to it.

You mean like how if the being Skulltaker wants to challenge doesn't want to fight, he'll cut them down?

Because their skulls are no longer worthy, of course.
However, I was referring to Codex Chaos Daemons, page 34.The Skulltaker searches the most powerful warriors, and ignore anyone else. And of those collected, Khorne takes only a handful, the worthy. Khorne cares a lot about who was the owner of the skull, just as I said.

 Psienesis wrote:

What this is doing, though, as I tried to point out, is taking one form in which Khorne is worshiped and trying to make it a universal constant, cutting out all the other ways in which the veneration of the Blood God is expressed, in order to make Khorne less evil. It's a selective reading of the fluff of the god in order to force Chaos to fit into a constraint that is not supported by the fluff or themes of 40K. While 40K doesn't really have any "good guys", there are certainly those that are a whole lot less-evil than others. Moorcock did this much better, of course, in presenting the duality of Chaos, but that is not really present in 40K.

So, while a specific Kult of Orks might worship Khorne in that way, not all who worship Khorne do so. There are tribes of feral barbarians on lost worlds, Chaos-held worlds, Feral Worlds, whatever, that venerate Khorne through wanton slaughter and carnage, living out the Conan axiom to its fullest.

But isn´t it the other way around? People tend to say that Khorne is just about violence. My point was that it is quite a complex entity.

Moorcock did it better, but w40k fits well enough. The Great Crusade was a Force of Order trying to unbalance the fight. As a result, the Forces of Chaos reacted violently. They are in a fierce struggle right now, so both sides have gone brutal. But in the year 30k (before the crusade) both the Emperor and the worshippers of the gods were far less violent.

However, the question stands: it is Chaos evil? This setting is a copy-paste of Moorcock´s multiverse in some regards. So the answer is no. To quote the Culexus assassin Syncella in 'Seventh Retribution' (a book from 2013):
"But you and I, Lysander, know the war we fight is not a matter of right or wrong. It is a clash between two different flavors of amorality..."
This sounds 100% Moorcock to me. Both sides (Chaos and Order) are amoral. Words like "good" or "evil" only make sense applied to humans or sentient xenos.

Indeed. Which makes Chaos Evil, because it is utterly anathema to humanity. It is, as was the case with Moorcock and continues to be the case in 40K, utterly and completely corrupting of anything we could consider human, physically, mentally and spiritually.

Its most-telling symptom of this corruption is the increasingly-inhumane things one must do to gain recognition in the eyes of one's patron power.

Moral Relativism has absolutely no place in the setting of 40K. All of the factions are some brand of evil, because the setting is a Nietzschian axiom gone well past the edge and very far out into the darkness. All factions of the setting have, for so very long, battled monsters that they have become monsters themselves. While the Imperium is definitely not "good" by any stretch of the imagination, there is definitely nothing "good" about Chaos. Those, in-universe and out, claiming such things are closing their eyes to some very real horrors that Chaos is responsible for.

 Psienesis wrote:
ADB's post there doesn't make it sound like Chaos is any less-evil than is otherwise presented. In fact, it makes it seem like it's the infighting and politicking of the Imperium turned up way past 11, because at least in the Imperium, there is always the Inquisition to step in if things seem to be getting out of hand between the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum or the Space Marines and the Munitorum or the Ecclesiarchy and the Arbites and so forth and so on.

Chaos, as presented there, is (of course) a selfish and self-centered society where the weak suffer and the strong rule. It's a dog-eat-dog, kill-or-be-killed (at best) lifestyle where you can, ultimately, trust no one, not even yourself, as the Ruinous Powers themselves, and the proto-sentience of the Warp in general, can cause even your own body and mind to rebel against you.

Yes... but keep in mind that he is talking about Chaos Space Marines. Killing machines. And Marines are exceedingly rare: we are told that most people do not see a single one in their life.

It doesn´t apply to chaos civilizations as a whole, and we have some examples in the background of chaos civilizations that lasted thousands of years: the enemies of the Imperium in the Sabbat Worlds, the main characters of Pawn of Chaos, the people from Daemonworld. So they have children, and love each other, and they have teachers, and education, and someone who plants potatoes and sells them in the city, and everything a society needs to keep going. Is it harsh? Probably. Worse than the Imperium? I doubt it.

What if you have been born with a mutation? Would you prefer to be "gifted by the gods" or "an abomination and an insult to the pure human form"?

 Psienesis wrote:
Indeed. Which makes Chaos Evil, because it is utterly anathema to humanity. It is, as was the case with Moorcock and continues to be the case in 40K, utterly and completely corrupting of anything we could consider human, physically, mentally and spiritually.

Its most-telling symptom of this corruption is the increasingly-inhumane things one must do to gain recognition in the eyes of one's patron power.

Moral Relativism has absolutely no place in the setting of 40K. All of the factions are some brand of evil, because the setting is a Nietzschian axiom gone well past the edge and very far out into the darkness. All factions of the setting have, for so very long, battled monsters that they have become monsters themselves. While the Imperium is definitely not "good" by any stretch of the imagination, there is definitely nothing "good" about Chaos. Those, in-universe and out, claiming such things are closing their eyes to some very real horrors that Chaos is responsible for.

If we are talking about Chaos itself, then being utterly anathema to humanity is not being evil. Order in its purest form, or Tyranids, are also extremely hostile to humanity. Actually, the Tyranids are the closest thing to Chaos predators: they feed on humanity, souls instead of flesh. Are Tyranids evil?

By the way, I found my Realms of Chaos: Slaves of Darkness copy. You were right, Khorne is described as a "bloody-handed god of carnage and slaughter" in that book. Nothing about being honourable that I can find. My mistake, I was mixing sources. There is a line in Codex: CSM that goes "Khorne's followers may feel they can justify their life of slaughter in any number of ways through honour, bravery or martial pride", but then says that this is wrong, and Khorne cares nothing about this.

 da001 wrote:
Champions of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines and the like are toys for the gods. But this does not apply to the average person living there.

Right. THEY are just toys of the champions.

To the servants of Chaos, the common person is little more than a victim waiting to happen, regardless of if they're faithful or not. The common person is a torture toy waiting to happen. A lamb waiting to be sacrificed. Worthless trash.


Even the Imperium has a higher opinion of the common citizen than Chaos does.

 da001 wrote:

I have not access to the Realm of Chaos books right now, but this is from Rogue Trader: Ork Freebooters. Pag 14, Khorne Stormboyz: "Worship of the Chaos Powers is not tolerated amongst sane and sensible Orks, but the Cult is rampant amongst Freebooter Stormboyz. The Blood God epitomizes the martial virtues which they hold dear, including a harsh disciplinary code, binding rules governing their conduct as honourable warriors and, of course, a life of almost continous blood-letting".

Sane and sensible orks??? Rogue Trader was weird.


On topic, I don't believe that the Chaos Gods are the daemons can be evil, because they are just emotions given a physical form. The Chaos Space Marines and other Chaos worshipers can be all over the place, from insane and therefore not really responsible for their actions (The Cleaved), to having a good cause, to being completely evil. With everything in between.

OK for clarification purposes i am going to say it clearly: I dont care about the IOM, i think they are the most useless sci fi human empire ever invented and i will often join in condemning them for their many failings.

Now onto the important part, there was a segment of fluff in the old WH40k demon book the described what happened to a planet invaded by demons of chaos. In short the nurgle demons tried out new plagues on captured humans, the slannesh demons tortured them and the khorne demons hunted them (cant remember what the Tzeencth demons did). Now these demons were acting on behalf of their gods, who encouraged their demonic followers to further such acts. The things i listed are evil acts, no sentient being who claims to be good or neutral would do these things, only evil beings would do these acts and only vile evil monsters would do these acts whit such a degree of excitement described in the book.

As for the chaos gods themselves i dont buy the "they are emotions" argument. The chaos gods have exhibited a degree of free will before and they clearly like spreading death and ruin to the other races of the galaxy, which in my mind puts them down as evil. These things aren't forces of nature like a earthquake they are sentient beings who willing order the deaths of billions on a daily basis. They are monsters and tyrants.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

Now onto the important part, there was a segment of fluff in the old WH40k demon book the described what happened to a planet invaded by demons of chaos. In short the nurgle demons tried out new plagues on captured humans, the slannesh demons tortured them and the khorne demons hunted them (cant remember what the Tzeencth demons did). Now these demons were acting on behalf of their gods, who encouraged their demonic followers to further such acts. The things i listed are evil acts, no sentient being who claims to be good or neutral would do these things, only evil beings would do these acts and only vile evil monsters would do these acts whit such a degree of excitement described in the book.

As for the chaos gods themselves i dont buy the "they are emotions" argument. The chaos gods have exhibited a degree of free will before and they clearly like spreading death and ruin to the other races of the galaxy, which in my mind puts them down as evil. These things aren't forces of nature like a earthquake they are sentient beings who willing order the deaths of billions on a daily basis. They are monsters and tyrants.

This is the core of our disagreement. You see chaos gods as monsters, physical creatures. But the warp is made of raw emotion, we are told so. It is described as a spiritual dimension. Which means that the Chaos gods are forces of nature of the spiritual kind. A tyrant is someone who can be good, neutral or evil. An entity made out of anger and violence cannot be good or evil. It is by definition neutral.

About their free will: we are told about the chaos gods through stories and legends. In this regard, they are like pagan gods. It is actually quite easy to draw a parallel between Ares, Mars, Morrigan and countless others Gods of War and Khorne. This is a dark setting and Khorne is actively fighting the people writing the stories, but it is the same. This is the reason the Chaos gods "make decisions" in the setting. But tell me, do you really think Khorne had the option of not being violent in any of the stories involving it?

"Only evil beings would do these acts" -> tyranids, a virus, any sort of predator to their preys, a robot programmed to do so... And any true neutral entity who feed on humans one way or another.

 Melissia wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Champions of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines and the like are toys for the gods. But this does not apply to the average person living there.

Right. THEY are just toys of the champions.

To the servants of Chaos, the common person is little more than a victim waiting to happen, regardless of if they're faithful or not. The common person is a torture toy waiting to happen. A lamb waiting to be sacrificed. Worthless trash.


Even the Imperium has a higher opinion of the common citizen than Chaos does.

This is imperial propaganda.

There are few references to chaos civilizations, but there are some. The books Pawns of Chaos, Blood Gorgons and Daemonblood depict civilizations that have been worshipping the gods for thousand of years. The civilization the Imperium is fighting in the Sabbat Worlds actively worship Chaos and has been doing so since before the Heresy. They have kids and raise them, they have engineers to build tanks, they cannot be worthless trash. These civilizations are described in a way quite similar to the way the romans described the barbarians. It is a tough society, but... worse that living in a hive or in a Forgeworld? Don´t think so.

The Imperium has a higher opinion of the common citizen? They are but numbers, if they are pure, if they never deviate from the Imperial doctrine. Independent thought will see you burned or turned into a lobotomized servitor, or food for someone else if you live in a Forgeworld. Also, what if you were born a mutant? Mutation is ripe amongst humanity. What about them?

VensersRevenge wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I have not access to the Realm of Chaos books right now, but this is from Rogue Trader: Ork Freebooters. Pag 14, Khorne Stormboyz: "Worship of the Chaos Powers is not tolerated amongst sane and sensible Orks, but the Cult is rampant amongst Freebooter Stormboyz. The Blood God epitomizes the martial virtues which they hold dear, including a harsh disciplinary code, binding rules governing their conduct as honourable warriors and, of course, a life of almost continous blood-letting".

Sane and sensible orks??? Rogue Trader was weird.


On topic, I don't believe that the Chaos Gods are the daemons can be evil, because they are just emotions given a physical form. The Chaos Space Marines and other Chaos worshipers can be all over the place, from insane and therefore not really responsible for their actions (The Cleaved), to having a good cause, to being completely evil. With everything in between.

^This. Nice to see someone else with the same opinion.

And about the sane and sensible orks.... it made me laugh again. Orks have been in charge of the "comical relief" section since the beginning.

 da001 wrote:
This is imperial propaganda.

No. This is GW canon.

"Let no good deed go unpunished; Let no evil deed go unrewarded." is the ethos of Chaos.

At its very core, Chaos revels in harming others and forcing others to submit to their will. Some misguided people of Chaos think that this means freedom, but what it really means is just tyranny of the strong.

At its very core, the Imperium wishes that humans are safe and happy, populous and productive. It goes to extremes to try to achieve this... and oftentimes fails. But it tries, and that is an important distinction.

Chaos doesn't try. It doesn't care. It sees a mother protecting her child and thinks "she should be raping the child instead", or "she should be feeding the child feces so that it becomes a nest for disease", or "she should be sacrificing that child and piling its skull with the others", and so on and so forth. It does not care what the mother desires. It doesn't care what the child needs.

The Imperium, for all its flaws... does care for both. It wants the mother to live a productive life. It wants the child to grow up healthy and strong, so that they can live a productive life. And this is why, in spite of the flaws of the Imperium, it can be "the good guys" where Chaos cannot. The average person can empathize with a flawed antihero, or even an antivillain. They find it much harder to empathize with a sociopath who cares for no one but himself.

A canon that is made of lies, legends and propaganda.

The Imperium is described as the most brutal and bloodthirsty regime ever to exist. A specific individual may care, but as a whole the Imperium regularly brutalizes its citizens. This is a key concept in the setting: the Imperium is brutal and uncaring to the extreme.

And this is if you are pure and do not express any word of dissent. If you are a mutant, you are doomed since birth.

Now on Chaos:
1: the gods. The warp is made of raw emotion. Khorne is nothing but a spiritual being made of violence and anger. It is Violence. It is highly hostile to everything but it is not "evil" in itself. Claiming that Khorne is evil is like claiming that Violence, in all its forms, is evil. The Sisters of Battle uses violence, and thus feed Khorne. It is a force of nature, it has no true free will. It cannot stop being violent, and thus it is not evil. You need to be able to do choices to be evil. Same go for daemons.
2: Chaos Champions and CSM: it depends. They are the closest Chaos get to being evil, that´s true.
3: chaos worshippers. It is rare to get information from their point of view, but I mentioned you some. For instance: "The civilization the Imperium is fighting in the Sabbat Worlds actively worship Chaos and has been doing so since before the Heresy. They have kids and raise them, they have engineers to build tanks, they cannot be worthless trash. These civilizations are described in a way quite similar to the way the romans described the barbarians. It is a tough society, but... worse that living in a hive or in a Forgeworld? "

For me, asking if Chaos is evil is asking if human emotions are evil.

 Melissia wrote:

Chaos doesn't try. It doesn't care. It sees a mother protecting her child and thinks "she should be raping the child instead", or "she should be feeding the child feces so that it becomes a nest for disease", or "she should be sacrificing that child and piling its skull with the others", and so on and so forth. It does not care what the mother desires. It doesn't care what the child needs.

How can such a civilization last for thousands of years without destroying itself? Doesn´t make sense. A chaos worshipper sees a mother protecting her child and she may be his wife. And he was a child once, who was protected by his kin.

It is just propaganda: the enemy is branded evil to avoid people changing sides.

Moral Relativism, again, has no place. Good and Evil are not nebulous concepts in 40K, not matters of perspective. When one does something, something in the Warp may react to that thing, whether it's an action or a thought, and that thing is usually evil. The Gods of Chaos are evil because the emotions and actions that created them were evil.

How can such a civilization last for thousands of years without destroying itself? Doesn´t make sense. A chaos worshipper sees a mother protecting her child and she may be his wife. And he was a child once, who was protected by his kin.

Forced slave-breeding. Just ask the people of Gereon. Or they live on worlds that are held by a faction of the Word Bearers or another faction of Chaos Undivided. So these people go about their lives venerating the Dark Gods... and only some of them are taken to be sacrificed on bloodstained altars, to be tortured to render their pain down into a drug for Slaaneshi priests, to be infected with virulent plagues and used as living bombs, to be shaped and reshaped into new and pleasing forms to the Architect of Fate, to be turned into slave-warriors for Khornate warbands. This is not so different from the Imperium.... excepting that the Imperium doesn't practice human sacrifice to the God-Emperor.

Saying that the chaos gods are exempt from judgement because they are just raw emotions does not take into account what sentience IS, and Chaos IS sentient. In multiple times in the fluff, the chaos gods have clearly shown they ARE capable of restraining their natures or making CHOICES as needed in order to fulfill their needs. Granted, they are still very chaotic and fickle personalities prone to mood swings, but on way more than enough occassions they've shown they can THINK and make decisions as needed, be it their various pacts and alliances with each other, their plans and betrayals of each other, and their granting of visions to their followers. Furthermore, daemon fluff has always depicted them as quite more than abstract concepts, describing things like Nurgle laying back in his rocking chair at the end of a long work day so he can have one of his greatest joys of tallying up his diseases (this is from the actual website so it's studio fluff) or the Changeling cutting Slaanesh's hair or giving Khorne a nurgling whoopee cushion leading to war. Or Slaanesh getting pissed off at the Masque's dance thinking it was mocking him (raw emotion would not have the judgement capability to determine if it was being mocked or not by a dance that was in fact 100% SINCERE).

Despite this sentience, they CHOOSE to do all those evil things and ENJOY it anyways. Therefore they are evil.

There's even a short story of an Iron Warrior forced by an oath he made long ago to keep on hunting down the descendants of an Imperial Fist over and over again. All four gods together gave him immortality just so they could LAUGH at how he's constantly forced to do that over and over and it's making him miserable (he actually had a vision of the gods laughing at him if I recall correctly).

Raw forces of nature DO NOT DO THAT. Chaos is sentient, thus it IS allowed to be judged by moral standards if you have them, and pretty much every moral standard in existence besides Chaos' own moral standards (and mostly because their moral standard is often "There is no such thing as a moral standard") would judge them to be evil.

(although as an aside, even a non-sentient thing can be evil. For example, a being made out of evil would be evil regardless of whether it had a choice in the matter by definition. Perhaps even more so since a sentient being made out of evil but choosing not to do evil somehow could be considered not evil. It's arguable that the Chaos gods are made out of evil as their daemons are vulnerable to the blood of GOOD men and the warp is so hellish because of evil emotions overcoming the positive ones, but they have free will too and choose to do evil of their own free will because they find it entertaining so they get the best of both evil worlds)

 da001 wrote:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

Now onto the important part, there was a segment of fluff in the old WH40k demon book the described what happened to a planet invaded by demons of chaos. In short the nurgle demons tried out new plagues on captured humans, the slannesh demons tortured them and the khorne demons hunted them (cant remember what the Tzeencth demons did). Now these demons were acting on behalf of their gods, who encouraged their demonic followers to further such acts. The things i listed are evil acts, no sentient being who claims to be good or neutral would do these things, only evil beings would do these acts and only vile evil monsters would do these acts whit such a degree of excitement described in the book.

As for the chaos gods themselves i dont buy the "they are emotions" argument. The chaos gods have exhibited a degree of free will before and they clearly like spreading death and ruin to the other races of the galaxy, which in my mind puts them down as evil. These things aren't forces of nature like a earthquake they are sentient beings who willing order the deaths of billions on a daily basis. They are monsters and tyrants.

This is the core of our disagreement. You see chaos gods as monsters, physical creatures. But the warp is made of raw emotion, we are told so. It is described as a spiritual dimension. Which means that the Chaos gods are forces of nature of the spiritual kind. A tyrant is someone who can be good, neutral or evil. An entity made out of anger and violence cannot be good or evil. It is by definition neutral.

I am sorry but that is such a cop out, the chaos gods are raw emotions therefore they are a force of nature and cannot be neither good nor evil? Thats false middle ground, and also speculation as we (as humans) have never encountered such beings and so cannot make any strong assertive or certain statements on what such beings would be like or capable of. Also anger and violence doesn't often lead to hunting down captured civilians in the ruins of a city. These things do acts of unspeakable evil every day, how can beings that do such acts ever hope to be able to be called neutral.

About their free will: we are told about the chaos gods through stories and legends. In this regard, they are like pagan gods. It is actually quite easy to draw a parallel between Ares, Mars, Morrigan and countless others Gods of War and Khorne. This is a dark setting and Khorne is actively fighting the people writing the stories, but it is the same. This is the reason the Chaos gods "make decisions" in the setting. But tell me, do you really think Khorne had the option of not being violent in any of the stories involving it?

"Only evil beings would do these acts" -> tyranids, a virus, any sort of predator to their preys, a robot programmed to do so... And any true neutral entity who feed on humans one way or another.

LIke i said, limited free will. Khorne cannot choose to not be violent but he can clearly choose when, where and who to be violent too. This is clearly demonstrated in the WH40k demon codex fluff section that has Khorne making choices/ SO while the chaos goods dont have human levels of free will they arent at the tyranids/virus level of lacking free will either. The chaos gods have limited free will, this is what the fluff in the WH40k demon codex is making out is the case.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Gods of Chaos are evil because the emotions and actions that created them were evil.

Emotions are not evil. How can fear, anger, love or lust be evil?

Forced slave-breeding. Just ask the people of Gereon. Or they live on worlds that are held by a faction of the Word Bearers or another faction of Chaos Undivided. So these people go about their lives venerating the Dark Gods... and only some of them are taken to be sacrificed on bloodstained altars, to be tortured to render their pain down into a drug for Slaaneshi priests, to be infected with virulent plagues and used as living bombs, to be shaped and reshaped into new and pleasing forms to the Architect of Fate, to be turned into slave-warriors for Khornate warbands. This is not so different from the Imperium.... excepting that the Imperium doesn't practice human sacrifice to the God-Emperor.

Multiple issues here:
1) Some planets under control of Chaos Space Marines are hellholes (like some imperial worlds) but others are not. The tribes in the Blood Gorgons novel, the people from Pawns of Chaos or Daemonworld, or the chaos followers in the Warhammer Fantasy to say some. Gereon is not the average chaos planet just like Krieg (another hellhole) is not your average imperial planet. There is no such thing as an average planet in the setting.
2) I am struggling to remember but... was not Gereon a planet recently conquered by Chaos and in open rebellion?
3) The Imperium does practice human sacrifice to the God-Emperor, or at least some planets do. The Ecclesiarchy is fine with anything as long as the Emperor is acknowledged as a god. Actually, countless thousands of persons die daily because the Emperor eats people. Oh, and the blood of the innocents is used as a weapon against Chaos. The Aegis is (at least in part) made of human blood.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Saying that the chaos gods are exempt from judgement because they are just raw emotions does not take into account what sentience IS, and Chaos IS sentient. In multiple times in the fluff, the chaos gods have clearly shown they ARE capable of restraining their natures or making CHOICES as needed in order to fulfill their needs. Granted, they are still very chaotic and fickle personalities prone to mood swings, but on way more than enough occassions they've shown they can THINK and make decisions as needed, be it their various pacts and alliances with each other, their plans and betrayals of each other, and their granting of visions to their followers. Furthermore, daemon fluff has always depicted them as quite more than abstract concepts, describing things like Nurgle laying back in his rocking chair at the end of a long work day so he can have one of his greatest joys of tallying up his diseases (this is from the actual website so it's studio fluff) or the Changeling cutting Slaanesh's hair or giving Khorne a nurgling whoopee cushion leading to war. Or Slaanesh getting pissed off at the Masque's dance thinking it was mocking him (raw emotion would not have the judgement capability to determine if it was being mocked or not by a dance that was in fact 100% SINCERE).

This is exactly the way the pagan gods are described: tales, legends, allegories. Metaphors.

The studio fluff also states that the warp is made of raw emotion. This completely contradicts what you are saying (which is also studio fluff). I think this is intentional, allowing the player to make his own mind. I do believe that the lake of blood of Khorne, the rocking chair of Nurgle and that cushion are allegories, tales, legends... I find the other option (taking these stories literally) preposterous.

A matter of opinion, no doubt. I wonder how many people think that the throne of skulls is a physical thing, and can be destroyed with a bomb or something.

(although as an aside, even a non-sentient thing can be evil. For example, a being made out of evil would be evil regardless of whether it had a choice in the matter by definition. Perhaps even more so since a sentient being made out of evil but choosing not to do evil somehow could be considered not evil. It's arguable that the Chaos gods are made out of evil as their daemons are vulnerable to the blood of GOOD men and the warp is so hellish because of evil emotions overcoming the positive ones, but they have free will too and choose to do evil of their own free will because they find it entertaining so they get the best of both evil worlds)

Imagine a non-sentient thing made of evil. Would it be evil? Wow, this is getting weird. My answer is still NO. If it has no free will, it cannot be evil. To do evil you have to voluntarily do it. An act (any act) does not make you evil if you are forced to do it, tricked to do it, or created to do it.

Now about the "the blood of "good men" is a weapon against the daemons" . Which are these "good men"?. As long as I know there are two types of persons that are murdered this way:
1) Sisters of Battle. One single case that I know of. Are they innocents? Are they good women?
2) Psykers that still have hope. In this case they are specifically branded as "innocents".

At least in the second the suffering and the sense of betrayal is key to the effectiveness of the sacrifice. But this sounds quite similar to Chaos sacrifices: the suffering is important, because it generates emotion, which is what the gods feed upon.

You just mentioned another thing that draws a parallel between the Emperor and a Chaos god.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

I am sorry but that is such a cop out, the chaos gods are raw emotions therefore they are a force of nature and cannot be neither good nor evil? Thats false middle ground, and also speculation as we (as humans) have never encountered such beings and so cannot make any strong assertive or certain statements on what such beings would be like or capable of.

Quite the contrary, we have encountered such beings since the beginning. Every single human society has developed a sense of spiritualism, and has reached the conclusion that something must be out there. The God of War, the Plague God, and the God of Excess have walked at the side of mankind since we got a soul and started dreaming. They just keep changing their names.

Thousands of books have been written on the issue. Is Ares evil? Is violence in itself a bad thing?

Also anger and violence doesn't often lead to hunting down captured civilians in the ruins of a city. These things do acts of unspeakable evil every day, how can beings that do such acts ever hope to be able to be called neutral.

The chaos gods cannot enter a physical world. Anger and Violence (aka Khorne) is unable to do that.
The gods send daemons to feed on human emotions. These daemons are predators, like tyranids if you want.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
The chaos gods have limited free will, this is what the fluff in the WH40k demon codex is making out is the case.

Good. Does this mean that they have "limited evilness"? Then we have an agreement. To answer the OP: "Chaos is not as evil as you thought?" If Chaos is the Chaos gods, no. They are not 100% evil because they have limited free will. Even if they can make choices, they cannot make the kind of choices that would turn them into "good" entities.

Sounds fine to me.

Or, to translate:

"It's okay when Chaos does horrible things because they're Chaos. But how dare the Imperium do them, no matter what the reason!"

Im seeing a lot of Imperial Propaganda here...

The Imperium is just as "Evil" as Chaos, you have corruption within the power which is just as bad as the barbarism that Chaos has, for example how is declaring Exterminatus on a whole planet full of innocent people because a very small group know about the existence of daemons or a little bit more of information about Chaos that that they may have stumbled among? how is that "worse" than a bloodtide of Khorne things coming from the Warp? to me they seem both as bad as eachother just one looks cleaner than the other.

Similarly whilst Chaos may not care about their citizens, so does the Imperium, that Inquisitor may just have that mother burned alive with its baby just because her hair looks heretical and the baby must be warp spawn?

Both are as bad as eachother just in their own way

Imperium: Corruption within power
Chaos: Barbaric

And to be honest that's one of the reasons why I like 40k because No one is the bad guy because they are all evil and as bad as eachother.. just in their own way

 Melissia wrote:
Or, to translate:

"It's okay when Chaos does horrible things because they're Chaos. But how dare the Imperium do them, no matter what the reason!"

Exactly what im thinking haha, it seems most of his points drift away from chaos and go more into the imperium. The topic is chaos evil. Its a simple yes or no question. The intentions, needs, actions and wants of chaos (even when the defence describes them) are evil. All that da001 is trying to do is excuse that evil based on weird trains of thought. Emotions in themselves are not evil but how we act on them can be and those evil actions based on those emotions is what chaos is (if that makes any sense). You can be evil or do an act of evil without choosing to be or do it. Its still evil at the end of the day. There is a reason people who are forced to commit acts of evil feel strong remorse and guilt, its because they have commited an act of evil.

It doesnt matter what reason, what their nature is and what they are made of evil is evil. What they do and how they do it goes against our basic morals of good and evil and trying to justify it really shows a lot about your character. If you dont beleive chaos is evil.... then what else to you isnt evil that blatantly should be evil...

In short chaos is evil even if it cant choose not to be. Because what it is doing is still evil.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evil
Sound like chaos to you...

A matter of opinion, no doubt. I wonder how many people think that the throne of skulls is a physical thing, and can be destroyed with a bomb or something.

It is not a physical thing, because it exists in the Warp, but it is a literal thing. Meaning, if you had the capability to, you could enter the Warp, travel to Khorne's Realm, and find the Blood God sitting on his Brass Throne atop a mountainous pile of blood-spattered skulls. This is a thing that you can do, as Skulltaker is described as entering this chamber to deposit the skulls he has taken at Khorne's feet.

Blow it up with a bomb? No. Not permanently, anyway. Khorne's power is not diminished. If you had a super-massive bomb, you might destroy it for a few minutes, maybe even a few days (but what is a minute, a day, a million years in a dimension where time does not exist?) but you have not actually done anything to Khorne.

This is why Draigo's fluff about him tearing down the Garden of Nurgle is meant to be a tragic tale. Nothing Draigo is doing in the Warp is having any effect, any effect at all, on Chaos. He is a Sisyphusian character, and his one-man crusade in the Warp is him rolling that boulder up a hill, only to have it roll back down by morning.

3) The Imperium does practice human sacrifice to the God-Emperor, or at least some planets do. The Ecclesiarchy is fine with anything as long as the Emperor is acknowledged as a god. Actually, countless thousands of persons die daily because the Emperor eats people. Oh, and the blood of the innocents is used as a weapon against Chaos. The Aegis is (at least in part) made of human blood.

While the Ecclesiarchy is fairly open in what "local customs" it will adopt, the Space-Catholicism vibe that is presented in studio material doesn't seem to support direct human sacrifice. It's possible, sure... but, on the other hand, I'm not making the argument that the Imperium is "good" in the way you seem to be trying to say that I am. I'm only saying that the Imperium is "less-evil" than Chaos.

And for the thousand souls a day fed to the Emperor? They were weak. They could never serve the God-Emperor in life, let them do so in their deaths. Men must die so that Man can endure.

The chaos gods cannot enter a physical world. Anger and Violence (aka Khorne) is unable to do that.
The gods send daemons to feed on human emotions. These daemons are predators, like tyranids if you want.

This is what the Emperor is believed to be preventing. A total Chaos victory would sunder the veil between the Warp and Reality, allowing the Chaos Gods to enter real-space at will, in effect turning Reality into The Warp.

Is violence in itself a bad thing?

Yes.

1) Sisters of Battle. One single case that I know of. Are they innocents? Are they good women?

Yes.

Imagine a non-sentient thing made of evil. Would it be evil? Wow, this is getting weird. My answer is still NO. If it has no free will, it cannot be evil. To do evil you have to voluntarily do it. An act (any act) does not make you evil if you are forced to do it, tricked to do it, or created to do it.

Is it the act that makes it evil, or the intent behind the act?

 happygolucky wrote:
Im seeing a lot of Imperial Propaganda here...

The Imperium is just as "Evil" as Chaos, you have corruption within the power which is just as bad as the barbarism that Chaos has, for example how is declaring Exterminatus on a whole planet full of innocent people because a very small group know about the existence of daemons or a little bit more of information about Chaos that that they may have stumbled among? how is that "worse" than a bloodtide of Khorne things coming from the Warp? to me they seem both as bad as eachother just one looks cleaner than the other.

The difference is that for the Imperium, some people actually felt BAD about that whole Exterminatus on Armegeddon thing, and one faction of the Imperium actively opposed it while others (if Black Library is taken in your canon) were plotting to stop it.

Chaos meanwhile never feels guilty about anything.

Also, ironically for someone who says it's propaganda, your twisting the context a bit. They aren't exterminating the innocent people JUST because they know about the existence of daemons. They're exterminating them because that knowledge as well as any possible taint could cause a further avalanche into corruption and descent. This was a factor that even some people (Grey Knights) who saw the point of view that exterminating innocents were bad also felt was valid. It's one thing to exterminate innocents just because they know too much. However, when you're exterminating them because their knowledge might cause a TRUCKTON OF OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE TO DIE in the future, that's another thing entirely.

Chaos, meanwhile, would never even BEGIN to consider such a thing. Chaos doesn't ever bother to consider the morality in the first place (again, a core tenet of most Chaos religions is there is no such thing as morality). The Imperium will at least ask "Is it worth it to save other people later?" before doing things (Exterminatus, for example, if done without a valid cause is actually heresy and reason to be excommunicated, as shown by Kryptman and the protagonist of the Inquisition novel series. The former is studio fluff and led to much debate about the thing in-universe because he DID have a reason. Just a questionable one). Chaos meanwhile would just say "lol death murder bwahaha DIE DIE DIE".

Really, we've had enough fluff and narrative from a Chaos protagonist perspective and an Imperial protagonist perspective to make it pretty obvious which faction has the majority of individuals that at least have some semblance of a conscience, even if one that's still far removed from real life morality. Narratives that are actually done in first person perspective sometime and show the train of thought of the individuals involved, again for both Chaos and Imperial individuals.

Hell, I don't even deny that the Imperium is evil.

It is. The Imperium is evil.

But it's a sympathetic evil. An evil driven by necessity. They are paranoid not for the sake of it, but because they HAVE to be. Chaos really does want to tear the Imperium down and bathe its worlds in blood, murdering everyone. The Imperium, for all of its evil, is not exaggerating at all when it describes the evils of Chaos.

Hell, even in regards to religious freedom... the Imperium is STILL better than Chaos. The Imperial Faith is a HUGELY diverse organization, having anywhere from animism to ancestor worship to monotheism to even polytheism within its boundry. All of them are accepted within the Imperium, with only minor alterations to ensure that they pay homage to the Emperor (oftentimes, they do this simply by planting the image of the Emperor in the place of the highest god in their pantheon-- the more subtle the change, the more likely the Imperium will be accepted, after all), and don't worship Chaos.

Chaos? They'll kill you if you worship the wrong god. Or if their god is feeling fickle. Or if the day is wednesday and you're wearing a blue coat.

 Swastakowey wrote:
it seems most of his points drift away from chaos and go more into the imperium. The topic is chaos evil. Its a simple yes or no question.

Good and evil are defined by opposites. My point is that both Chaos and the Imperium mirror each other, like the Forces of Chaos and the Forces of Order in classic fantasy. To quote again the Culexus assassin from 'Seventh Retribution': "But you and I, Lysander, know the war we fight is not a matter of right or wrong. It is a clash between two different flavors of amorality..."

The intentions, needs, actions and wants of chaos (even when the defence describes them) are evil. All that da001 is trying to do is excuse that evil based on weird trains of thought.

My train of thought is simple. Psienesis just summarized it here:

 Psienesis wrote:

Is it the act that makes it evil, or the intent behind the act?

For me, it is the intent.

 Swastakowey wrote:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evil
Sound like chaos to you...

True. By most of these definitions Chaos is evil. Quote: "the evil effects of a poor diet". Indeed.

 Melissia wrote:
Or, to translate:

"It's okay when Chaos does horrible things because they're Chaos. But how dare the Imperium do them, no matter what the reason!"

Yep. That´s what happen when you use Google Translator.

 Psienesis wrote:

Blow it up with a bomb? No. Not permanently, anyway. Khorne's power is not diminished. If you had a super-massive bomb, you might destroy it for a few minutes, maybe even a few days (but what is a minute, a day, a million years in a dimension where time does not exist?).

I am unable to visualize this. It is like that episode in South Park when terrorists invaded Imaginationland.

And for the thousand souls a day fed to the Emperor? They were weak. They could never serve the God-Emperor in life, let them do so in their deaths. Men must die so that Man can endure.

Isn´t this a Chaos thing too? "The weak die for the rest to prosper". These are psykers, at least in theory far more powerful than the average human.

Is violence in itself a bad thing?

Yes.

Even if it is used against evil? Even if it is used when no other solution can be found?

Imagine a non-sentient thing made of evil. Would it be evil? Wow, this is getting weird. My answer is still NO. If it has no free will, it cannot be evil. To do evil you have to voluntarily do it. An act (any act) does not make you evil if you are forced to do it, tricked to do it, or created to do it.

Is it the act that makes it evil, or the intent behind the act?

I think people should also make a distinction between being evil and being blameworthy. Perhaps you could be willing to concede that Chaos entities have no choice in the matter when it comes to committing evil deeds and so they couldn't be blamed for their actions, they however are certainly evil.

Also it's quite explicit that the Ruinous Powers are sentient beings, specifically coalesced emotions that grew so large they attained sentience. Of course you could still be sentient and forced to act in certain ways but that does not really matter in this case.

Lastly from a narrative or literary perspective, I think it's clear that Chaos is supposed to be evil. I don't think 40k gets particularly nuanced in this area and so it's not hard to guess the intent of the creators here. In so many stories, characterizations, and descriptions of Chaos it's described evil to the extreme. Just look at things like "Kill! Maim! Burn!" or as mentioned "Let no good deed go unpunished; Let no evil deed go unrewarded." I don't think its a stretch to say the intent is to flavour chaos as evil.

 Melissia wrote:

The Imperium is evil.

But it's a sympathetic evil. An evil driven by necessity. They are paranoid not for the sake of it, but because they HAVE to be. Chaos really does want to tear the Imperium down and bathe its worlds in blood, murdering everyone. The Imperium, for all of its evil, is not exaggerating at all when it describes the evils of Chaos.

Chaos? They'll kill you if you worship the wrong god. Or if their god is feeling fickle. Or if the day is wednesday and you're wearing a blue coat

"To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable".
You are imagining incredibly cruel worlds under the rule of Chaos. According to the background, the Imperium is worse.

And I don´t think the Imperium is evil. I think both the Imperium and Chaos are at the same level. They have reasons to do what they do. All factions in the setting have their reasons.

Also, Chaos does not want to go to war with the Imperium. The Horus Heresy or the 13th crusade are exceptions. And the first one was a counter-strike. The Chaos gods do not care about the Imperium. They are quite busy fighting each other.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Really, we've had enough fluff and narrative from a Chaos protagonist perspective and an Imperial protagonist perspective to make it pretty obvious which faction has the majority of individuals that at least have some semblance of a conscience, even if one that's still far removed from real life morality. Narratives that are actually done in first person perspective sometime and show the train of thought of the individuals involved, again for both Chaos and Imperial individuals.

No, we haven´t. Unless you are counting the Chaos Space Marines, we have very little "first person perspective" from chaos followers. And in these rare cases they are depicted as humans. They build cities, they create civilizations that last thousand of years. They are not "lol death murder bwahaha DIE DIE DIE" unless they are at war. Perhaps you are talking about CSM or Champions of Chaos.

 asimo77 wrote:
I think people should also make a distinction between being evil and being blameworthy. Perhaps you could be willing to concede that Chaos entities have no choice in the matter when it comes to committing evil deeds and so they couldn't be blamed for their actions, they however are certainly evil.

Also it's quite explicit that the Ruinous Powers are sentient beings, specifically coalesced emotions that grew so large they attained sentience. Of course you could still be sentient and forced to act in certain ways but that does not really matter in this case.

Lastly from a narrative or literary perspective, I think it's clear that Chaos is supposed to be evil. I don't think 40k gets particularly nuanced in this area and so it's not hard to guess the intent of the creators here. In so many stories, characterizations, and descriptions of Chaos it's described evil to the extreme. Just look at things like "Kill! Maim! Burn!" or as mentioned "Let no good deed go unpunished; Let no evil deed go unrewarded." I don't think its a stretch to say the intent is to flavour chaos as evil.

Not sure. I don´t think there is such thing as an "evil act", if it is lacking intent. If a person tries to help someone and ends hurting him, he is not evil. If he gets possesed and is forced to do something, he is not evil. The blame is on the one possessing him. And why it doesn´t matter to be forced to act in a certain way in this case?

From a literary perspective, you are absolutely right. Chaos is presented as evil. But then again, we see the story from the point of view of the Imperium. Imagine you are a mutant living in a planet that is in the path of a Black Templar crusade. I think we have enough information to say that this is not a "good vs evil" (or an "evil" vs "more evil") setting.

Intent only changes the outcome of the act. Not the act itself. the act itself is still negative despite the intention. BUT the intention will determine the consiquence.

Accidentally killing someone is still an evil act but can be more easily forgiven, however will hurt the person who did the act moreso. So although they have done an act which has the same result as someone intentionally killing someone they will suffer lighter consequences and remorse and guilt will settle in on the wrongdoer.

Intentionally killing someone leaves no room for forgiveness (as a gerneral rule depending on the situation of course) and results in harsh punishment.

In short intention doesnt effect the act but effects the consiquences of the act. So what Chaos does is still evil and there would be room for forgiveness BUT...

Failing to learn from the consequences of acts, and continually repeating them on massed scale leaves little or no room for forgiveness. I cant keep accidentally nuking cities and expect to be forgiven or excused each time. Same goes for Chaos. Intentions fail to matter eventually.

Chaos, by the standards of most normal people in this world today, when described in depth, would be considered evil as their practices are not only extreme, but excessive and repeated.

The intent. Without intent there is no evil.

My *intent* is to create a land that is safe for my family, my friends, my children, and my children's children. To keep them safe from those who would cause them harm, physically, emotionally, financially or morally.

I just had to gas 13 million people to death to do it.

If that mindset is not "evil", then the Imperium, likewise, cannot be held as "evil" by any stretch, because it is the *intent* of the Imperium to build a brighter, safer future for humanity.

However, there are many part of humanity that do not, or can not, share in that dream. These elements must, for the good of humanity, be purged.

You are imagining incredibly cruel worlds under the rule of Chaos.

You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

 Swastakowey wrote:
Intent only changes the outcome of the act. Not the act itself. the act itself is still negative despite the intention.

I completely respect your opinion, but we are moving in circles. I don´t think an act made by a non-sentient being, an enslaved creature or a thing lacking free will can be considered evil. If Khorne is Violence, I don´t think it is evil in itself.
Let´s agree that we have a disagreement.

 Psienesis wrote:

The intent. Without intent there is no evil.

My *intent* is to create a land that is safe for my family, my friends, my children, and my children's children. To keep them safe from those who would cause them harm, physically, emotionally, financially or morally.

I just had to gas 13 million people to death to do it.

If that mindset is not "evil", then the Imperium, likewise, cannot be held as "evil" by any stretch, because it is the *intent* of the Imperium to build a brighter, safer future for humanity.

However, there are many part of humanity that do not, or can not, share in that dream. These elements must, for the good of humanity, be purged.

Godwin´s Law.

I don´t feel like I won though. Your reasoning is good. What I am saying about Chaos applies to the Imperium too. Both sides mirror each other. My point is: both sides are equally good/evil. However, we usually see Chaos as evil and the Imperium as good, thus my answer to the OP´s question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

You are imagining incredibly cruel worlds under the rule of Chaos.

You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

I must admit I don´t know what to do with some of your one-line posts. I feel like an imperial guardsman fighting an Eldar.

This is my first answer:
Alternative answer:
Additional alternative answer:

(No offense intended)

I could have said "50 million" and made it a Stalin reference, but those are less well-known.

However, we are talking about a fictional society that can draw parallels, in some areas, to the Reich and other totalitarian states, so I don't think Godwin's Law really applies. True, this is not a discussion of WW2, but it involves elements of comparison to it.

A truly Chaotic society, though, is not... truly Chaotic. It's a society that is, again, a totalitarian state being ruled (probably) by mutant horrors or ten thousand year-old super-soldiers, sorcerer-kings or daemon princes or something along those lines, and might be into some really weird things (let's not forget that Elric, follower of the Chaos God Arioch, was banging his cousin). For a society to embrace Chaos Undivided, it would have to descend into unrestricted anarchy. Though, of course, mortals are not daemons, so they often fail to really grasp what the concepts of Chaos worship really entail.

If intent is an issue here then I think we should all agree Chaos is evil. They quite explicitly intend to do harm and cause suffering. Sure some people fall into Chaos with good intentions, but those embedded in it don't "accidentally" commit atrocities.

Also I think we can safely classify agents, acts, and maybe even events as evil if we so wished.

The Gods: Not sentient, not evil.

The Daemons: Cut off from the gods, can learn and have free will, almost always evil.

The Cultists: Usually evil.

That was easy.

The gods are sentient though, but more importantly I'm not sure you even have to have sentience necessarily to be evil. Also I would characterize and judge daemons in much the same way as the gods.

The gods themselves don't even have free will. They are evil though, that's entirely what created and drives them.

There aren't many good guys in 40k, but there are bad guys. Chaos are the bad guys.

 asimo77 wrote:
The gods are sentient though, but more importantly I'm not sure you even have to have sentience necessarily to be evil. Also I would characterize and judge daemons in much the same way as the gods.

Of course you need sentience to be evil.

Or do you think hurricanes are evil?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They are evil though, that's entirely what created and drives them.

That is not true.

The chaos gods are tyrants, this is clearly demonstrated by their actions. There is a segment in the new codex that goes like this

IN a single generation the heretically progressive world of Thruscas Sine eradicates all natural illness from its populace. Nurgle is offended and infests the world from pole to pole; Nurgleings, Plaguebearers, Rot Files and finally jovial Great Unclean Ones materialise

This is the action of a tyrant, to condemn a whole word to death for nothing more the curing all natural illness from its populace. Nowhere does it state that its “In Nurgle’s nature” to act this way, this was a choice that Nurgle chose, he decided to act this way and horribly murder a entire planet. This is the action of a tyrant.

The chaos gods are also undeniable cruel and enjoy tormenting mortal races, once again there is a passage in the new codex that reads.

During a incursion on the hiveworld of Paraghast the power of chaos transforms the principle city of Patrihive into a nightmare. It becomes a twisted prison to billions of souls trapped within a sentient hive thing, whose roots burrow into the surrounding ash wastes for a hundred miles in every direction……

Also you said that gods were raw emotion, and that Khorne was violence and anger, well this indicated otherwise

The thousand year war of Midian finally ends with Pax Veritas. That night every celebrating solder is suddenly decapitated by an invisible blade

Firstly violence and anger doesn’t lead to that. Secondly what an evil vile act, these solders have spent their lives fighting, finally know peace and get killed by a jealous, childish, petulant tyrant. This is a condemning, disgusting act of evil.

The Chaos gods are evil, those quotes aren't imperial propaganda, they come straight out of the demon codex. GW clearly wants chaos to be evil and portrays it as such in the fluff, saying differently is trying to tell GW that you somehow know the stuff they wrote better than they do.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

I am sorry but that is such a cop out, the chaos gods are raw emotions therefore they are a force of nature and cannot be neither good nor evil? Thats false middle ground, and also speculation as we (as humans) have never encountered such beings and so cannot make any strong assertive or certain statements on what such beings would be like or capable of.

Quite the contrary, we have encountered such beings since the beginning. Every single human society has developed a sense of spiritualism, and has reached the conclusion that something must be out there. The God of War, the Plague God, and the God of Excess have walked at the side of mankind since we got a soul and started dreaming. They just keep changing their names.

Thousands of books have been written on the issue. Is Ares evil? Is violence in itself a bad thing?

We have not encountered beings of raw emotion, cite me one source, one good source that has people interacting with beings of raw emotion.

The chaos gods cannot enter a physical world. Anger and Violence (aka Khorne) is unable to do that.
The gods send daemons to feed on human emotions. These daemons are predators, like tyranids if you want.

They send demons out in the real space to commit acts or brutality and evil. Demons are nothing like nids.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
The chaos gods have limited free will, this is what the fluff in the WH40k demon codex is making out is the case.

Good. Does this mean that they have "limited evilness"? Then we have an agreement. To answer the OP: "Chaos is not as evil as you thought?" If Chaos is the Chaos gods, no. They are not 100% evil because they have limited free will. Even if they can make choices, they cannot make the kind of choices that would turn them into "good" entities.

Sounds fine to me.

No they use what free will they have to commit acts of evil, they had a choice to do good or do evil and they picked evil, GW has made this very clear

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 asimo77 wrote:
The gods are sentient though, but more importantly I'm not sure you even have to have sentience necessarily to be evil. Also I would characterize and judge daemons in much the same way as the gods.

Of course you need sentience to be evil.

Or do you think hurricanes are evil?


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Honestly I don't think that's such a big bullet to bite so to speak. If this is the kind of thing I would have to allow for, I don't see it as much of an issue, I'd accept it even if just for the sake of consistency.

 Psienesis wrote:

A truly Chaotic society, though, is not... truly Chaotic. It's a society that is, again, a totalitarian state being ruled (probably) by mutant horrors or ten thousand year-old super-soldiers, sorcerer-kings or daemon princes or something along those lines, and might be into some really weird things (let's not forget that Elric, follower of the Chaos God Arioch, was banging his cousin). For a society to embrace Chaos Undivided, it would have to descend into unrestricted anarchy. Though, of course, mortals are not daemons, so they often fail to really grasp what the concepts of Chaos worship really entail.

Fair enough. Moorcock is always my reference.
The world of Elric is a good example of what I think is a Chaos world. Lots of people there. Civilizations. A cruel and harsh world. But it is not as "evil" as most players think. It is a better place to live than the average hive world, which are described as living under "the cruelest regime".

However, the closer you get to Chaos in this world, the worse things go. "Good" is located in a middle point between the Imperium and Chaos.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

We have not encountered beings of raw emotion, cite me one source, one good source that has people interacting with beings of raw emotion.

Only one? OK. I already talked about Ares, so I am picking The Judgement of Paris.

Written about 3200 years ago, it narrates the origin of the fight between the Greeks and the city of Troy. It was so successful a sequel was made, the Iliad. There is a spin-off called “The Odyssey”.

It goes like this: Strife, an entity made of raw emotion, who is the twin sister of Ares (Anger, the Blood God), is upset because she is the only being made of raw emotion not invited to a wedding. Being the ultimate troll, Strife arrives at the celebration with an apple with the inscription “for the fairest one”. Soon, an argument starts about which goddess deserves it the most: Hera (Marriage and Birth), Athena (Wisdom and Courage) or Aphrodite (Love and Pleasure, the whimsical goddess of sexuality). To make it short, they ask a human cultist named Paris, a Champion of the Gods who was the prince of Troy. He was famous because he had defeated a bull-shaped daemon of Khorne (thus gaining his respect, at least according to the local sorcerers). Slaanesh talks to him before the Judgement and promises him lots of sex with whoever he wishes, she wins the contest and the other two goddesses get mad.

And thus the war started. The goddesses got their cultists ready and we see lots of human cultist fighting. That´s the Iliad. As you can imagine, the Iliad is centered in the Champions of the Gods, and can be described as bolter porn without bolters, with any champion being unstoppable until meeting another Champion. There is also some god vs god action.

 asimo77 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Of course you need sentience to be evil.

Or do you think hurricanes are evil?
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Honestly I don't think that's such a big bullet to bite so to speak. If this is the kind of thing I would have to allow for, I don't see it as much of an issue, I'd accept it even if just for the sake of consistency.

I don´t think Void__Dragon wants you to bite that bullet. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think he is saying that hurricanes are NOT evil. He is comparing Chaos to a force of nature, a reasoning that has already been used in this thread.

Hurricanes are not evil because they lack sentience (or free will). The same reasoning applies to the Chaos gods. Violence (Khorne) cannot be evil in itself, because it cannot help doing violence.

The thing is, the chaos gods CAN help doing what they do. On more than one fluff occasion it's been mentioned that the chaos gods held back or whatever else for their own reasons. They're more than capable of making alliances, agreements, acting unpredictably, talking, negotiating, etc etc. The fluff has made it clear that despite their natures, they have free will just like every sentient being.

They're just huge donkey-caves about it.

 da001 wrote:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

We have not encountered beings of raw emotion, cite me one source, one good source that has people interacting with beings of raw emotion.

Only one? OK. I already talked about Ares, so I am picking The Judgement of Paris.

Written about 3200 years ago, it narrates the origin of the fight between the Greeks and the city of Troy. It was so successful a sequel was made, the Iliad. There is a spin-off called “The Odyssey”.

It goes like this: Strife, an entity made of raw emotion, who is the twin sister of Ares (Anger, the Blood God), is upset because she is the only being made of raw emotion not invited to a wedding. Being the ultimate troll, Strife arrives at the celebration with an apple with the inscription “for the fairest one”. Soon, an argument starts about which goddess deserves it the most: Hera (Marriage and Birth), Athena (Wisdom and Courage) or Aphrodite (Love and Pleasure, the whimsical goddess of sexuality). To make it short, they ask a human cultist named Paris, a Champion of the Gods who was the prince of Troy. He was famous because he had defeated a bull-shaped daemon of Khorne (thus gaining his respect, at least according to the local sorcerers). Slaanesh talks to him before the Judgement and promises him lots of sex with whoever he wishes, she wins the contest and the other two goddesses get mad.

And thus the war started. The goddesses got their cultists ready and we see lots of human cultist fighting. That´s the Iliad. As you can imagine, the Iliad is centered in the Champions of the Gods, and can be described as bolter porn without bolters, with any champion being unstoppable until meeting another Champion. There is also some god vs god action.

You do know i dont think gods exist right? You just cited me a legend, something that didn't happen in order to support your case. Yes it make a nice story but as factual evidence is falls short because 1) We have no way of verifying what was reported in it and 2) It is widely acknowledged that the story of troy is a myth/ legend. Yes there was a city called troy and it was invaded and destroyed but it had nothing to do with a non existent pantheon of greek gods. Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Khorne, unlike the hurricane, does not lack sentience. He/It is, in fact, extremely sentient, present (in some small way) at every act of warfare, violence, carnage and slaughter in the galaxy, when and where ever it happens.

He feeds from this as he drives mortal beings to do these things, even as he feeds these actions and is created by these actions. While a Chaos God can be said to have a moment of creation, a moment when it gained sentience, once that moment comes, it is as if that Chaos God has *always* existed. Even though Slaanesh did not exist until M30, Slaanesh is the source of all vice and perversion in the galaxy throughout history. Always has been, always will be. Time does not abide in the Warp, and is turned onto itself. Past, present and future are meaningless concepts in the Warp, it is all the "now".

What lies between the Imperium and Chaos, between Order and Chaos, is not "good". It's not "evil" either, because Order and Chaos do not have anything to do with what is good or what is evil, they can be one, the other or both, all at the same time.

However, in 40K, the Imperium is *definitely* the choice of the lesser of two evils. Chaos is Extremely Evil. The Imperium is just Really Evil.

The other factions fall somewhere along the Order/Disorder axis, but none of them really touch on the Good/Evil axis, as this is 40K and that doesn't exist on a factional scale. All of the factions of 40K are Evil to some degree. The Tau might be argued to be good, and some Tau are, but their background strongly implies something dark going on behind the scenes.

 Psienesis wrote:

The other factions fall somewhere along the Order/Disorder axis, but none of them really touch on the Good/Evil axis, as this is 40K and that doesn't exist on a factional scale. All of the factions of 40K are Evil to some degree. The Tau might be argued to be good, and some Tau are, but their background strongly implies something dark going on behind the scenes.

Games Workshop Digital Editions facebook page referred to them as "the less belligerent alien races" when previewing who you could ally your Inquisitors with.

I like the "politically correct" sound of "less-belligerent aliens".

Chaos is sufficiently evil, just too stupid to successfully leverage that evil into results.


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 Runicmadhamster wrote:
Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Women on their periods?

/ducks

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

You do know i dont think gods exist right? You just cited me a legend, something that didn't happen in order to support your case. Yes it make a nice story but as factual evidence is falls short because 1) We have no way of verifying what was reported in it and 2) It is widely acknowledged that the story of troy is a myth/ legend. Yes there was a city called troy and it was invaded and destroyed but it had nothing to do with a non existent pantheon of greek gods. Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Perhaps. Or has it? Countless tales and legends, religions that founded and destroyed civilizations... Are you sure we haven´t met the gods?

However, you do not need to believe in the gods. Neither do I, actually. But humanity as a whole has been obsessed with them since the beginning. Also think about what the gods are: Strife, Violence, Lust... The source of our disagreement is that you see the gods of chaos as monsters, tyrants, physical beings... They are gods.

And in the w40k setting, the gods are real. A man (is/was he a man?) launched a crusade to destroy them, through the use of reason, and he hurt them. And they reacted and fought together against this threat. Aphrodite, Ares, Apollo, Hermes and the rest.... they were really pissed off. Also, keep in mind that what we know of the setting is a mix of lies, propaganda and legends. Of course there are gods. All legends have gods.

Now imagine a being like Strife actually exists. Is she evil? She does all sorts of evil things. Some people would say that she is evil. Other people would say that, well, she is Strife. Of course she does these things. It is a creature made of discord, she cannot help trolling everyone.

 Psienesis wrote:

However, in 40K, the Imperium is *definitely* the choice of the lesser of two evils. Chaos is Extremely Evil. The Imperium is just Really Evil.

What about the line "To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable"?

For me, Chaos and the Imperium are exactly at the same level. After all, they are the Chaos/Law Moorcock-equivalent. And I see both of them as neutral forces, engaged in an endless war where humans are pawns.

 Omegus wrote:
Chaos is sufficiently evil, just too stupid to successfully leverage that evil into results.

Whoaaaa nelly. Yeah, Chaos is evil, but stupid is not one I'd cop to. I also hold Chaos as being less evil then it's painted as (though that's not really hard).
I can imagine where the idea comes from though. I mean, Abaddon is on his 13th Black Crusade, sounds like a losing streak and must mean he's dumb right?
Answer: Ehhhh.

See, Abaddon is a driving force to unite the various factions of Chaos into an army. But given that many of his Marines (and all of the Daemons) at his disposal have a patron God who in turn has 3 rivals in the same army... It's not a question of competence, it's a question of "Which sub-faction is going to slip the leash first, disobey a direct order because they got a better offer from their deity or just felt the Warp overtaking them and decided it was a good pain?" If each of Creed's generals had sworn an entirely separate alliance with a god level power that could instantly reward them for ditching Cadia and going to the nearest paradise planet for cocktails, Cadia would have fallen within a week.

Each Chaos god is also precariously balanced, a marked loss of power could bring their whole "house of cards" crashing down. Even though Slaanesh is the weakest, he's still a major powerhouse in the Warp, and could destroy any of the other Big 3 given a sufficient opening. Heck, when they withdrew their support from Horus, if it wasn't simultaneous it might as well have been.

Chaos isn't stupid. it's just fractured, borderline juvenile, and CHAOTIC. They make new daemon engines on a regular basis, fresh new virus bombs like they're elves in Santa's workshop the day before Christmas, and strip whole worlds or even SM chapters of useful gear. The Alpha Legion has been declared eliminated THREE times by the High Lords of Terra, only for a sealed scroll case to be handed to the Lords, containing a picture of an Alpha Legionnaire flipping them the bird, captioned "Better luck next time" and date stamped earlier that afternoon.

Here is one very important thing to consider about the Chaos Gods that I feel is being overlooked, which I think will shed a lot of light on this sentient v. semi-sentient what-not.

Nurgle is not just the fat-body sitting on a rotting throne after a hard days work at the Manse. Nurgle is also the Manse, the Garden and all of his daemons. Same with all the others.

So if we consider these aspects of the Chaos gods as well, then the evil argument is even harder to ascertain. Can landscapes be "evil?"

The Garden, the Manse, all of that, is simply Warp-stuff shaped into a form pleasing to Nurgle, the same as any Plague Bearer, Nurgling or Great Unclean One. All of these things are sentient so, yes, very capable of evil... and Nurgle just wants to turn the galaxy into a pit of foulness and corruption.

Nurgle says a human's life is worth less than a bacterium's. He would gladly kill all of humanity if it meant that their bodies would spawn more bacteria-- if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

Khorne says a human life is worthless unless it is shedding blood. He would gladly watch all humans bleed to death and have his servants pile their skulls up upon his throne, if only he was able to accomplish this. He's certainly trying.

Slaanesh says a human life is worthless unless it is used in excess. S/he would gladly torture all humans until they die horrible, suffering, screaming, hideously painful deaths, if only s/he was capable of it. S/he's certainly trying.

Tzeentch says a human life is worthless unless it is plotting and scheming. He would gladly set humanity against itself, to turn betrayal in to the most common virtue until humanity was wiped out, if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Here is one very important thing to consider about the Chaos Gods that I feel is being overlooked, which I think will shed a lot of light on this sentient v. semi-sentient what-not.

Nurgle is not just the fat-body sitting on a rotting throne after a hard days work at the Manse. Nurgle is also the Manse, the Garden and all of his daemons. Same with all the others.

So if we consider these aspects of the Chaos gods as well, then the evil argument is even harder to ascertain. Can landscapes be "evil?"

Landscapes can be evil if they're sentient. Which the Garden of Nurgle arguably is. That thing DEVOURS anyone who enters unless Nurgle wills them to go through.

As an aside, at least according to the wiki (though I could have sworn I saw it myself in an official source. I just can't remember which one), Nurgle's capable of making his garden NOT infect visitors with diseases if they're invited or welcome, despite how giving diseases is "his nature". So again, another example of how the Chaos gods are sentient and DO have free will, even in regards to their landscapes. In this case, Nurgle is in fact fully capable of ordering his garden to NOT infect you with a disease regardless of what he is. Hell, the fact that he does it for visitors who are welcome or invited shows that he also knows that infecting people with diseases can be bad. Yet he does so anyways to most people.

 da001 wrote:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

You do know i dont think gods exist right? You just cited me a legend, something that didn't happen in order to support your case. Yes it make a nice story but as factual evidence is falls short because 1) We have no way of verifying what was reported in it and 2) It is widely acknowledged that the story of troy is a myth/ legend. Yes there was a city called troy and it was invaded and destroyed but it had nothing to do with a non existent pantheon of greek gods. Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Perhaps. Or has it? Countless tales and legends, religions that founded and destroyed civilizations... Are you sure we haven´t met the gods?

However, you do not need to believe in the gods. Neither do I, actually. But humanity as a whole has been obsessed with them since the beginning. Also think about what the gods are: Strife, Violence, Lust... The source of our disagreement is that you see the gods of chaos as monsters, tyrants, physical beings... They are gods.

And in the w40k setting, the gods are real. A man (is/was he a man?) launched a crusade to destroy them, through the use of reason, and he hurt them. And they reacted and fought together against this threat. Aphrodite, Ares, Apollo, Hermes and the rest.... they were really pissed off. Also, keep in mind that what we know of the setting is a mix of lies, propaganda and legends. Of course there are gods. All legends have gods.

Now imagine a being like Strife actually exists. Is she evil? She does all sorts of evil things. Some people would say that she is evil. Other people would say that, well, she is Strife. Of course she does these things. It is a creature made of discord, she cannot help trolling everyone.

What i am saying is that as we have never met any being like this all we can do is speculate and make assumptions. So saying that say Khorne CANT do this or COULDN'T do that is making a strong assertive statement where you have no grounds to make such a statement. Trust me i spent a year on a US politics and current events debate forum i now well were you can and cannot make strong assertive statements

OK I got a Codex: Chaos Daemons in English and some spare time, so... it is Quote Time!!.

On the nature of the Chaos Gods. Page 6. "The Nature of the Beast" entry.
Quote 1.1: Chaos is made of emotions, dreams and nightmares

Quote 1.2: Chaos is described through metaphors. It cannot be seen, smelled or heard.

Quote 1.3: The formation of the Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods made out of emotions, fantasies, dreams...


On the Realm of Chaos. Page 6 again.
Quote 2.1: No intelligent purpose, no consistence.

Quote 2.2: Warp space and Chaos are exactly the same thing.


Quote 2.3: Chaos Gods are... landscapes. They ARE the Realm of Chaos, or locations inside it.

Quote 2.4: Chaos Gods made of emotions part II.


On “What does the Chaos Gods do?”. From “The Great Game” entry, page 8.
Quote 3.1: What does they do. Goal of the Gods. The paradox: if they ever achieve a total victory, they will die. (That´s what happens when you are able to fight yet lack intelligence).

Quote 3.2: About the Chaos Gods interest on humanity (or lack of).


One by one.
On Khorne. Page 10. "The Blood God" entry.
Quote 4.1:
On Tzeentch. Page 12. The Changer of Ways entry.
Quote 4.2:
On Nurgle. Page 14. Father of Plagues entry.
Quote 4.3:
On Slaanesh. Page 16. The Dark Prince entry.
Quote 4.4:

Ok, enough for now. These would come handy.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
What i am saying is that as we have never met any being like this all we can do is speculate and make assumptions. So saying that say Khorne CANT do this or COULDN'T do that is making a strong assertive statement where you have no grounds to make such a statement. Trust me i spent a year on a US politics and current events debate forum i now well were you can and cannot make strong assertive statements

My grounds are the background GW has published through the years.
Quotes 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.4, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4.
TL,DR:
1) The Chaos Gods are entities made of emotions. And they are landscapes. No intelligence. Rudimentary and unfocused consciousness.
2) All descriptions are metaphors. Dreams, fantasies.... nothing else.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Landscapes can be evil if they're sentient. Which the Garden of Nurgle arguably is. That thing DEVOURS anyone who enters unless Nurgle wills them to go

Wrong. It is a metaphor. The warp cannot be seen, smelt or heard (quote 1.2). An emotion cannot physically devour you. It is a physical act and physics do not apply in the Warp (quote 2.1).

 Melissia wrote:
Nurgle says a human's life is worth less than a bacterium's. He would gladly kill all of humanity if it meant that their bodies would spawn more bacteria-- if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

Khorne says a human life is worthless unless it is shedding blood. He would gladly watch all humans bleed to death and have his servants pile their skulls up upon his throne, if only he was able to accomplish this. He's certainly trying.

Slaanesh says a human life is worthless unless it is used in excess. S/he would gladly torture all humans until they die horrible, suffering, screaming, hideously painful deaths, if only s/he was capable of it. S/he's certainly trying.

Tzeentch says a human life is worthless unless it is plotting and scheming. He would gladly set humanity against itself, to turn betrayal in to the most common virtue until humanity was wiped out, if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

No. They do not care about mortals (see quote 3.2). They will starve if they kill humans. Also, that would not explain why the people on daemonwordls are still alive (and many times in better condition that imperials). The Chaos Gods are emotional parasites. They need humanity (or sentient beings)

Also, Nurgle is a god of life and laughter, he is not trying to kill anyone. Quite the contrary. See Quote 4.3.

(One little thing here: in mythology and anthropology the bringer of change is usually Death. Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other. They are Life and Death (or Pestilence and Death, if you want to go that way). No quote here, this is just an opinion.)

 Melissia wrote:
You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

I doubt you have ever read a single page of the background of a Chaos Codex. The first page is number six and it addresses most of your reasonings. You keep posting Imperial propaganda. Get a Codex of a different faction and you will get a different perspective from a different point of view. That´s what makes this setting so interesting. For me, at least.






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For instance, I have a copy of most GW has published about the Sisters of Battle. The Liber Sororitas (white dwarf 293), the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force from the Citadel Journal 49, the Codex: Witch Hunters...

It gives me a completely different perspective and I enjoy it a lot.

Edit: here is another quote, about the differences between Chaos Daemons and Chaos Gods:
Codex: Chaos Daemons. Page 7, Chaos Daemons entry:


So the differences are:
1) Daemons have senses (Chaos Gods do not, page 6).
2) Daemons have thoughts and purposes (Chaos Gods lack the first, page 6; they have a single purpose: domination).
3) Daemons have personality (I think page 6 implies Chaos Gods do not, though it is arguable).
4) Daemons have consciousness (Chaos Gods have a rudimentary consciousness, page 6).
5) Daemons can move within the Warp (Chaos Gods are trapped in certain locations or, to put it better, they ARE the positions themselves, page 6).
6) Daemons are not so closely bound to the Warp (Chaos Gods cannot scape the Warp, they ARE the Warp, page 6).

da001; you are my hero, and your well written and sourced arguments should be an inspiration to all 40k background threads everywhere.

But this is starting to look like a game of Ork "Rokk Paper Scissors", where everyone just picks Rokk and then socks the other ork in the head to win. (In plain language, flipping unproductive)

 da001 wrote:

It is always nice to see a poster who isn't too lazy to check their codices for the information to prove their case (Like me, for example).

Exalted.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
da001; you are my hero, and your well written and sourced arguments should be an inspiration to all 40k background threads everywhere.

But this is starting to look like a game of Ork "Rokk Paper Scissors", where everyone just picks Rokk and then socks the other ork in the head to win. (In plain language, flipping unproductive)

Agreed his post was impressive gave him a +1 too.

A rudimentary intelligence is enough to be evil. It shows that they CAN think, even if basically.

Hurricanes, floods, fires, normal non-warp-related landscapes, etc, do NOT have a rudimentary intelligence. Therefore you've basically proven that yes, they ARE evil. Whether they are warp hurricanes, warp landscapes, or warp mansons, they still have a rudimentary intelligence and thus choose to do the things they do. Hence they are evil. Stupidity is not an excuse.

Here are some quotes from a forum about another character in response to arguing that a character isn't evil just because he isn't very intelligent.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188653

I'm following the discussion on Enor next forum over, and many people find him "sweet" and "heartwarming". I haven't seen anything to support that; I just see him as having a low int score.

Thinking about it, the same thing is true of Thog -- he was homicidal. To the best of my knowledge he never questioned the murders Nale made him participate in, never expressed remorse for any evil act, and to the best of my knowledge never performed a good one.

Thog was chaotic evil and Enor *may* be evil. We haven't seen him long enough to know whether he's evil or neutral.

And yet, people find him cute and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt -- and I am, as well, to some extent -- because they're doing what they're told. Ganjii is doing the thinking for Enor. Nale did the thinking for Thog.

And yet.

And yet it occurs to me that evil doesn't have to be smart to be evil. One of the classic villain templates is the thug -- the not-too-smart musclebound oaf who kills people for fun. The classic henchman.

So my question is, from the D&D perspective, when does the stupid henchman of an evil villain himself become evil? At what point does "just following orders" or "too dumb to know better" stop you from alignment-shifting, if you start off as neutral?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

"We were just following orders" is not a claim to innocence. It is an admittence of guilt. It explains why they did the action in question, but the action was still performed by them and for that, they can be held accountable.

Enor and Thog, though they may not have the highest INT or WIS stats, can still say no to Ganji or Nale.

obeying any and all orders with out question is lawful neutral.

choosing not to follow an evil order is a good act. Thog probably is evil because he enjoys killing

What makes Elan good-aligned is that he genuinely cares about other people, to the point that he sees his own life and safety as pretty close to inconsequential. Thog, on the other hand, sees other people as toys to play with and little else. If Thog wants a puppy, Thog will turn a random unsuspecting blacksmith into a puppy, and who cares if the blacksmith considers it to be torture? Thog has a puppy; therefore Thog is happy.

It's not the level of intelligence you have; it's how you use what you've got. Elan uses his limited resources to pick good, trustworthy people to do the thinking for him. Thog picks people who will let him have the ice-cream, sprinkles, and random slaughter he thinks are fun.

Pretty much applies to the chaos gods completely. It's in Thog's nature to see things as cute puppies and enjoy killing for the hell of it. He's too stupid to think otherwise. He's still evil. Just like the chaos gods, who's nature is to kill everyone, are still evil for following it (though the Chaos gods have shown in the fluff that they're smarter than Thog. That just makes it worse).

It's Actions, not "IQ level" that determines whether someone is Good, Neutral or Evil. Think Monty Python here for a moment: Sure that rabbit is cute, fluffy, if a simple creature... but if it turns out to be a "vorpal rabbit" with a taste for human flesh... Forget how innocent looking it may look or stupid it maybe! Bring out the Holy Hand Grenades!

In practice probably not as continuing to show a willingness to obey evil orders will make you Lawful Evil, not Lawful Neutral. You are still responsible for your own actions. And no, refusing to do Evil doesn't make you Good as Good under D&D definition is not an absence of Evil.

(in this case, the chaos gods aren't showing a willingness to obey evil orders but instead are showing a willingness to continue perpetuating evil acts in their nature, even though they've shown in the fluff that they are capable of holding back or stopping if they choose. Or at least not being jerks for the sake of being jerks, which they usually end up doing anyways, but not always, again showing their free will)

From another thread on the same subject:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64901

Thog will whistle and think about puppies while he puts an axe through an innocent person. That's evil. End of story. Think about it, someone who will murder and can't sleep that night has a shred of good in them. Someone who will murder and sleep well that night and go for ice cream is totally evil.

Applies to the chaos gods too. They murder and sleep well at night (IE, don't feel guilty about what they do) and laugh about it afterwards (Warhammer 40k's tagling describes them as laughing, for crying out loud). That's evil.

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

40k is a universe without good or evil, any attempt to moralize or demonize will fail because of this.

Only Chaos argues that there's no good or evil. Both the Tau and the Imperium do claim it does, and sometimes even try to follow what they sincerely believe is good. Regardless of whether or not they succeed at that (IE, whether or not they're evil too), by their own definitions (which honestly aren't really portrayed THAT differently from most peoples' definitions of good and evil besides the fantastic racism and some things that don't apply to the real world such as doing what you need to survive in a galaxy where daemonic corruption is real) and the majority of moral standards today, Chaos is definitely evil.

Arguing whether there's such a thing as good or evil in the first place is moving the goal posts anyways. The topic title is "Chaos, not as evil as you thought". Therefore for this topic to exist, good and evil for the sake of discussion exist, and arguing otherwise is off-topic or a tangent at best, and belongs in a different thread.

@LoyalistAlphaLegion: thanks! Yes I noticed what you said. Doesn´t matter, I enjoy searching stuff in the background.
@Void__Dragon: thanks!
@shinros: thanks!

TiamatRoar wrote:

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

A bee has rudimentary intelligence.
A bacteria has rudimentary intelligence.

An even better example: a wolf that is starving has rudimentary intelligence. If it meets a baby it will kill and feed on it. According to your reasoning that would be evil, but it is not.

It is in its nature. Wolves need to feed and humans are not their kin. The Chaos Gods are not humans, they feed on humans, they need to do that things you call evil or they will die of starvation. Why should they care about humans? Do you care about your food? Will you starve yourself to death for the sake of your food?

They are barely conscious beings with a rudimentary intelligence that are forced to do what they do because they are made of raw emotions and do not have any reason to be nice to a human even if they were not forever starving. How can they be “evil”?

Which brings another question: are you evil if you eat a fried chicken? Chickens are living things. They suffer. For me, the answer is no. I am not a chicken, I feed on chickens. That´s in my nature. But this is just an opinion. Lots of people would say that the Chaos Gods are evil because they feed on human´s emotions, just like humans who eat chickens are evil. They are called “vegetarians”.

And lots of people would brand entities like Violence, Strife or Death evil, because they consider that there are feelings or things that can be evil even if they lack intelligence or consciousness. In the dictionary you can find examples like: “the evil effects of a bad diet”. Some people in this thread see the problem this way. And if this is their definition of evil, I guess the Chaos Gods are evil for them.

Also, it is funny that you used a D&D example, because D&D copy-pasted the Chaos/Law scale of Moorcock, just like GW. Alignment in D&D is a categorization of the ethical (Law/Chaos axis) and moral (Good/Evil axis) perspective. It is perfectly possible to be Law + Evil or Chaos + Good. I don´t know who is this Thog, but, for your description, he is Lawful Evil: "I followed orders". Which is not the case of a starving wolf, a Chaos God, a bee, an earthquake, me eating a fried chicken or a virus. In D&D, Chaos (and Law) is out of the scale, and thus truly neutral. Which is the point I am trying to make.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Just like the chaos gods, who's nature is to kill everyone, are still evil for following it

Wrong. Many people keep repeating it as a mantra, but it is wrong. Killing everyone will kill them of starvation, and they do not care about humans. See quotes 3.1 and 3.2 of my previous post. And Nurgle is a god of life and laughter, it loves everything. See quote 4.3. The nature of Nurgle is love and life forever for everyone. Death is change, and Nurgle hates change.

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil

On the contrary, Chaos believes there is good and evil.

And they believe themselves firmly on the side of evil, as well.

TiamatRoar wrote:

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

A bee has rudimentary intelligence.
A bacteria has rudimentary intelligence.

An even better example: a wolf that is starving has rudimentary intelligence. If it meets a baby it will kill and feed on it. According to your reasoning that would be evil, but it is not.

 Melissia wrote:

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil

On the contrary, Chaos believes there is good and evil.

And they believe themselves firmly on the side of evil, as well.

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

TiamatRoar wrote:
A rudimentary intelligence is enough to be evil. It shows that they CAN think, even if basically.
...
Applies to the chaos gods too. They murder and sleep well at night (IE, don't feel guilty about what they do) and laugh about it afterwards (Warhammer 40k's tagling describes them as laughing, for crying out loud). That's evil.

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

I'm gonna hijack a quote from da001, which he got from the Chaos codex:
“Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure. This realm is composed of love and hate, fear and hope, ambition and despair, and yet is an uncaring, emotionless void.”

I don't think we're even fit to pass judgement on the state of Chaos and its/their morality. We can damn them as evil, but we don't know why or how. What we know as rules and law mean nothing to them, and vise versa. We can't begin to even fathom how they think; what flickers of action we deem intelligent may just be our perception of it.
From my (albeit limited) understanding, rudimentary intelligence does not make an entity sentient or sapient. Animals (particularly dogs, dolphins, apes and the like) all have degrees of intelligence, but are not sapient. A dog cannot be evil, but can feel emotion and be excited. Apes and monkeys laugh but also fall below the curve of sapience and so also get a pass from being ear-marked evil.

(So as to not spark a flame war I'll be broad in the following assertion, but please understand the following lump of argument is not made for the sake of offense or intended to be seen as rude or "trolly".)
The old theist cop-out argument for why there is suffering in the world but supposedly also a benevolent, omnipotent god is "God moves in mysterious ways". Putting aside that can of necron scarabs, let's take note of the cop-out itself. That is a bonafide acknowledgement that we have NOOO idea why some things happen, and ascribe it to the will of God (or gods, dealer's choice) anyway. We don't know how gods work, we don't know what they feel or how they think because they are so far beyond our ability to imagine. How could we declare them evil when their actions may mean entirely different things, or that the result wasn't what they intended. If Slaanesh has a hiccup and two whole solar systems suddenly have an orgy/rebellion, how is that evil? A man lights a cigarette and half the sidewalk turns into crack-cocaine. Everyone says it's his fault, but it wasn't intended and he had no control over the result, can't be evil right? A flying monkey (with rudimentary intelligence) flaps its wings, two hurricanes, a typhoon, and a new Bustin Jeaver concert spring into existence. Evil? Nay.

Lastly (until I feel the burning urge to post more wasted words ), I don't know if the Chaos Gods have any emotions of their own. Yes, Khorne is known for his bloodlust, Slaanesh his desires, Nurgle his mirth, and Tzeentch his naked ambition... but that's how we interpret them. Radical thought here, what if the Warp spawned powerhouses are effectively mindless? I think that they are just massive puppets, caricatures of a small set of emotions or thoughts. They are just fonts of power cloaked in a single set of emotions/desires, and their every move in the Great Game is dictated by that burning need. The Daemons of Tzeentch are famous for crowing that "Fate is predetermined" or "There is no escaping destiny!". As they are but slivers of Tzeentch's own power, what if their mockery of mortals is in fact a bitter attempt to drag them DOWN to Tzeentch's level? He has no choice, no free-will, he must scheme and horde power because that's what his programming (for lack of a better term) allows him. Khorne can't agree to duels to first blood only, the bloodlust and wrath of trillions upon trillions of living things force him into that state. Ditto Nurgle and Slaanesh (but in their own ways).

Short and Sweet version:
1) Chaos is Gods, we can't possibly know why they do things or compare them to our own level of morals accurately
2) Rudimentary intelligence doesn't make them aware enough to be capable of evil (babies laugh all the time, but I'm pretty sure they're not much beyond 'rudimentary' in intelligence)
3) The Chaos Gods may have no control over their own actions; just powerful beyond the scope of mortal understanding and slaved to a single punch card of wants and needs.

TiamatRoar wrote:
However, the Chaos gods do a LOT of their acts for entertainment or for "glory" (GLORY TO CHAOS! and all that), which is something a wolf eating a baby because it's starving does NOT do.

The Chaos Gods care nothing for glory. You are talking about humans serving Chaos as its champions. I quoted you the motivations of the Chaos Gods. They are made of emotions, they are barely conscious, how could they do things for glory?

Keep in mind that the Codex itself describes the Chaos Gods as tales, legends and metaphors... that´s the way humanity tries to grasp what the gods are. Before GW, the ancient Greek (and every single human society) did the same.

They're not forced to do what they do. Fluff has several cases where they've shown they can hold back or plan around things as needed.

A metaphor, a tale. I already quoted you the lines.

"Violence, strife, and death" don't have a rudimentary intelligence.

In the setting, they do. Violence is called "Khorne". “He is wrath incarnate, the embodiment of a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy.” Khorne is an emotion. Is not a physical being like you and me.

Chaos isn't chaotic neutral. Chaotic neutral in D&D generally is nearly completely random. Chaos in WH40k however consistently perpetuates evil acts. That's chaotic evil, not chaotic neutral and definately not chaotic good.

My point was: both D&D and GW took this from the same source. The Codex: Chaos Daemons go to great lengths to explain that Chaos is neutral: almost lacking intelligence, will starve if stopped, lacking consciousness...

Except Nurgle doesn't love everything. As stated in the daemon codex (so it's not Imperial propaganda), even "Nurgle's generosity has limits" when he denied those Eldar the cure to his disease. Again, HIS GENEROSITY HAS LIMITS WHEN HE DENIED THE CURE, showing he KNEW they wanted it but denied it because his generosity had limits. It's not "He was generous to them by letting them have his disease without the cure!" It was "He was NOT generous to them because he refused to let them have the cure."

So it did an evil thing. He was trying to be good but "his generosity has limits". Did you just say that Nurgle is a good guy (generous) but not infinitely good so "his generosity has limits"? This is quite far from the "his nature is to kill" you posted before.

No wait. This is just a metaphor. It is not a good, generous entity. It has no generosity.

The chaos gods' (Nurgle in this case) "rudimentary" intelligence FAR exceeds a wolf or a bee. If you told them they were only as intelligent as a wolf or bee, they'd probably transform you into a chaos spawn or find some other way to kill you horrifically if they got the chance.

Why? Do you think they care about what a human? See quote 3.2. The Chaos Gods do not listen.

Slaanesh feeling that the masque was insulting his pride and flying into a rage is FAR beyond what a wolf or bee can do.

And Eris (Strife) throwing that apple and thus starting the war of Troy just for fun proves that the gods the ancient Greek worshipped are Evil.
No.

 da001 wrote:

The Chaos Gods care nothing for glory. You are talking about humans serving Chaos as its champions. I quoted you the motivations of the Chaos Gods. They are made of emotions, they are barely conscious, how could they do things for glory?

Keep in mind that the Codex itself describes the Chaos Gods as tales, legends and metaphors... that´s the way humanity tries to grasp what the gods are. Before GW, the ancient Greek (and every single human society) did the same.

They're not forced to do what they do. Fluff has several cases where they've shown they can hold back or plan around things as needed.

A metaphor, a tale. I already quoted you the lines.

"Violence, strife, and death" don't have a rudimentary intelligence.

In the setting, they do. Violence is called "Khorne". “He is wrath incarnate, the embodiment of a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy.” Khorne is an emotion. Is not a physical being like you and me.

 da001 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil

On the contrary, Chaos believes there is good and evil.

And they believe themselves firmly on the side of evil, as well.

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

She is referring to their mortal servants, who are usually quite evil.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
"God moves in mysterious ways".

A concept that also appears in the Chaos religion. Did you fight well? Ok that generates a lot of emotion, lots of warp power to you. Oh look you are now a spawn.

The Chaos Gods do not really care. Their "mysterious ways" and "whims" are random acts of a moronic, yet powerful, cosmic entity.

Radical thought here, what if the Warp spawned powerhouses are effectively mindless? I think that they are just massive puppets, caricatures of a small set of emotions or thoughts. They are just fonts of power cloaked in a single set of emotions/desires, and their every move in the Great Game is dictated by that burning need.

I think this is exactly what the background says... or hints, given that after saying that it starts saying things depicting the gods as human-like entities. The word here is "anthropomorphism". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

That´s what these tales are, an attempt to grasp what Chaos is by mere mortals.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

She is referring to their mortal servants, who are usually quite evil.

Which is a completely different point.

I think the average citizen of a Chaos world is OK. Most Chaos Space Marines (not all of them) and all Champions of Chaos dedicate their lives to feed humans to the gods in order to gain personal benefits. That´s evil.

 da001 wrote:

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

"Chaos Itself" is defined by the gods. But yes, the gods themselves embrace evil and care about little else. The most devoted worshipers of Chaos reflect the god they follow.

Perhaps you can argue that the Chaos Gods have little more than the mindsets of bickering children who cannot understand tha other peoples' desires matter (which says nothing good about them, so you would be denigrating them in trying to defend them). I don't buy that argument, however; and in adults, we call that lack of caring for other peoples' desires and needs... sociopathy.

TiamatRoar wrote:
By your own twisted definition,

It is not "my" twisted definition. You do not see bees, cancer, the angel of Death or earthquakes being legally prosecuted, not frequently at least. And if you take cocaine through an airport and you can prove you didn´t know it was there and it is not yours, you are not punished. The intention is needed for something to be evil for a lot of people. It is not only me.

And that's why Khorne is evil while in the real world, Violence, Strife, and Death (the concepts) are not. Because Khorne has rudimentary intelligence.(...)

In the Greek mythology, Violence and Death have intelligence. And in every single culture ever to exist. War and Death, the riders of the Apocalypse, have intelligence, and they are pretty clearly a copy-paste of ancient gods. You can believe or not believe in them in the real life, but in 40k they are real.

The greek gods were evil as hell. Although not as evil as the Chaos gods.

Also, starting a war just for fun IS evil and DOES prove that Eris is evil. In this case, "God of Strife" may as well be called "God of evil" too because both are the same thing (causing pain and suffering because it's fun).

By your own twisted definition, the chaos gods could be gods of evil (which is what they basically are, given the acts they perpetuate and endorse) and still not be evil just because being evil is their nature. Except by definition, something who's nature is to do evil (which is the acts the chaos gods do and relish in) is evil, because that's what evil IS.

That´s an opinion many people have. Your reasoning is not flawed, and I cannot debate it. You say Strife is evil because she does "evil" things, even if she is an emotion and thus absolutely unable to do any other thing, even if she is a concept, and the story a tale, a legend, a metaphor. I do not share your opinion, because my definition of "evil" is different. But I can understand it and it fix the background. You think a thing (an emotion, a concept) can be evil in itself. Fine.

I don´t think the Chaos Gods are better or worse than any other gods ever... because they are one and the same. In the Crusade, they found countless religions with countless names. Khorne or Ares, who cares? It is still Anger.

None of your quotes every showed that and the codex doesn't do that. Chaos is intelligent as hell, or else it wouldn't have pulled off even 5% of the things it does in this setting, such as outwit the Emperor and cause the Heresy. To imply that Chaos is unintelligent would imply that it's completely random. It CLEARLY has its goals and it CLEARLY knows how to PLAN for them and work to achieve them. I don't think there's a single fluff piece anywhere that states that Chaos is unintelligent ("rudimentary" intelligence is a HUGE difference from unintelligent, and GW's definition of "rudimentary" intelligence is clearly far beyond simple animal intelligence).

No.
Sorry, I already quoted you the lines including expressions such "undirected by intelligent purpose" and "unfocused consciousness". Yet you insist that Chaos is "intelligent as hell". You are in denial here.

OK, I'm curious now. This is for both sides of the argument.

How do you define evil?

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, I'm curious now. This is for both sides of the argument.

How do you define evil?

Taking pleasure or delight in the pain and suffering of others. Killing, maiming, burning etc or any of the sort for personal endevours or personal gain such as money or power.

Indiscriminate violence or sinister actions (which involve any of the previously mentioned acts) including psycological and physical harm being used against a target group of living things and or indiscriminately carries out in an inhumane way for fun, pleasure, violence, satisfaction or personal gain.

In the case of animals it would be killing without purpose, in higher quantities than needed, with the intent of eradication (without good reason) and doing so in an inhumane manner.

Evil encompasses much more and im sure others can help fill it in. But generally along the lines of the above.

 Melissia wrote:
But yes, the gods themselves embrace evil and care about little else.

Can you prove this statement?

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, I'm curious now. This is for both sides of the argument.

How do you define evil?

Personally? I define evil the same way Justice Potter Stewart defines pornography; "I'll know it when I see it".

On a more useful level... actually that's about as useful as I can give. Prepare for story/example time kiddies.

1) A man steals several thousand dollars. Stealing is wrong, and with no indicator that the man was remorseful or even acknowledged his wrong doing, he is labeled evil.

2) An impoverished man steals several thousand dollars to feed and cloth himself in the face of the coming winter. Stealing is wrong, and though there are mitigating factors, he remains defiant, so he is labeled evil.

3) An impoverished and malnourished man steals several thousand dollars to feed and cloth himself in the face of the coming winter. Stealing is wrong, but there are mitigating factors, and the man is sorry that he had to go to such extreme lengths but he did not want to die in the frozen slush of some gutter. He is still punished because stealing is wrong, but he is not labeled evil.

What I'm getting at is that the circumstances and intent have a bearing on what I acknowledge as evil. Some things have no (to my knowledge) excuses, but most actions can be justified in the right light/terms. Made perfect and not wrong, rarely. Made understandable and not evil, frequently.

What about the line "To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable"

What about it?

That's only evil from my point of view as a citizen of a liberal, Western democracy.

The misanthrope tells me that it is necessary. It tells me that even that isn't enough. Also, that they probably deserve it. For in the Imperium "It is better that a thousand innocents die than one guilty walk free". The reality of M40 has driven them to this state.

Is it "evil"? Not really, no, or it falls under the heading of "necessary evil".

But, again, you seem to be trying to state that I'm saying that the Imperium is somehow a good guy. They aren't, simply less-evil than Chaos... who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

"An even better example: a wolf that is starving has rudimentary intelligence. If it meets a baby it will kill and feed on it. According to your reasoning that would be evil, but it is not."

To be honest if we were to classify something like this as indeed an evil act (but perhaps indicate the wolf is not blameworthy) I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Also one problem with the line of argumentation that "the gods are beyond mortal understanding" is they really aren't. It's very easy for authors to simply say "this is incomprehensible" but nothing in the canon really supports that. Very little about the gods are that hard to understand, for example: Khorne perpetuates violence.

"No. Sorry, I already quoted you the lines including expressions such "undirected by intelligent purpose" and "unfocused consciousness". Yet you insist that Chaos is "intelligent as hell". You are in denial here."

It seems more likely that the writers can't make up their mind.

 da001 wrote:
OK I got a Codex: Chaos Daemons in English and some spare time, so... it is Quote Time!!.

On the nature of the Chaos Gods. Page 6. "The Nature of the Beast" entry.
Quote 1.1: Chaos is made of emotions, dreams and nightmares

Spoiler:

“Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure. This realm is composed of love and hate, fear and hope, ambition and despair, and yet is an uncaring, emotionless void.”

Quote 1.2: Chaos is described through metaphors. It cannot be seen, smelled or heard.

Spoiler:

“The Realm of Chaos exists far outside imagination; an impossible abstraction made real only by metaphor and the roiling emotions of mortal mind. (…) No mundane sense can see, smell or hear it”

Quote 1.3: The formation of the Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods made out of emotions, fantasies, dreams...

Spoiler:

“In the Warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water (…). They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. (…) these tides and waves have flowed unceasingly (…) and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the very stuff of unreality. Eventually, these instinctual, formless beings gained a rudimentary consciousness. The Chaos Gods were born, vast psychic presences made of the fantasies and horrors of mortals.”

On the Realm of Chaos. Page 6 again.
Quote 2.1: No intelligent purpose, no consistence.

Spoiler:

“It is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of consistence (…), a random, unstructured panorama of pure energy and unfocused consciousness (…) unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose.”

Quote 2.2: Warp space and Chaos are exactly the same thing.

Spoiler:

“Warp space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible.”

Quote 2.3: Chaos Gods are... landscapes. They ARE the Realm of Chaos, or locations inside it.

Spoiler:

“The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one, for both are formed of the same Warp energy".

Quote 2.4: Chaos Gods made of emotions part II.

Spoiler:

"Khorne´s realm is founded on anger and bloodletting; Tzeentch´s lands are scintillating constructs of pure magic; Nurgle´s territory is a haven of death and regeneration, and Slaanesh´s dominion is a paradise of damning temptations.”

On “What does the Chaos Gods do?”. From “The Great Game” entry, page 8.
Quote 3.1: What does they do. Goal of the Gods. The paradox: if they ever achieve a total victory, they will die. (That´s what happens when you are able to fight yet lack intelligence).

Spoiler:

“The Chaos Gods are constantly at war with one another” “the great Gods of Chaos have the same goal: total domination of the universe.” “No Chaos God can ever truly be victorius, for without the Great Game, the Warp would become a still, unmoving emptiness”.

Quote 3.2: About the Chaos Gods interest on humanity (or lack of).

Spoiler:

“From time to time arises a being, place or event in the material universe that attracts the attention of all the Gods of Chaos. (…) For Mankind, the most significant occasion of this type was the rise of the Emperor.” “Such interest in mortal affairs is fleeting”

One by one.
On Khorne. Page 10. "The Blood God" entry.
Quote 4.1:

Spoiler:

“He is wrath incarnate, the embodiment of a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy.” “Every single life taken in anger increases the Blood God´s power.”

On Tzeentch. Page 12. The Changer of Ways entry.
Quote 4.2:

Spoiler:

“Tzeentch feeds upon the need and desire for change that is an essential part of all living things” “He listens to the hopes of every sentient being”
“… and the ambitions of nations create a force that can change history. Tzeentch is the embodiment of that force.”

On Nurgle. Page 14. Father of Plagues entry.
Quote 4.3:

Spoiler:

“Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter. In death, there is life.” “The greatest inspiration comes in the darkest moments” “He is the hidden fear of disease and decay, the gnawing truth of mortality and the power of defiance it generates”.

On Slaanesh. Page 16. The Dark Prince entry.
Quote 4.4:

Spoiler:

“He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in all things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania.” “… wherever the lust for power and temporal gain exists, the talons of Slaanesh dig deep.”

Ok, enough for now. These would come handy.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
What i am saying is that as we have never met any being like this all we can do is speculate and make assumptions. So saying that say Khorne CANT do this or COULDN'T do that is making a strong assertive statement where you have no grounds to make such a statement. Trust me i spent a year on a US politics and current events debate forum i now well were you can and cannot make strong assertive statements

My grounds are the background GW has published through the years.
Quotes 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.4, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4.
TL,DR:
1) The Chaos Gods are entities made of emotions. And they are landscapes. No intelligence. Rudimentary and unfocused consciousness.
2) All descriptions are metaphors. Dreams, fantasies.... nothing else.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Landscapes can be evil if they're sentient. Which the Garden of Nurgle arguably is. That thing DEVOURS anyone who enters unless Nurgle wills them to go

Wrong. It is a metaphor. The warp cannot be seen, smelt or heard (quote 1.2). An emotion cannot physically devour you. It is a physical act and physics do not apply in the Warp (quote 2.1).

 Melissia wrote:
Nurgle says a human's life is worth less than a bacterium's. He would gladly kill all of humanity if it meant that their bodies would spawn more bacteria-- if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

Khorne says a human life is worthless unless it is shedding blood. He would gladly watch all humans bleed to death and have his servants pile their skulls up upon his throne, if only he was able to accomplish this. He's certainly trying.

Slaanesh says a human life is worthless unless it is used in excess. S/he would gladly torture all humans until they die horrible, suffering, screaming, hideously painful deaths, if only s/he was capable of it. S/he's certainly trying.

Tzeentch says a human life is worthless unless it is plotting and scheming. He would gladly set humanity against itself, to turn betrayal in to the most common virtue until humanity was wiped out, if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

No. They do not care about mortals (see quote 3.2). They will starve if they kill humans. Also, that would not explain why the people on daemonwordls are still alive (and many times in better condition that imperials). The Chaos Gods are emotional parasites. They need humanity (or sentient beings)

Also, Nurgle is a god of life and laughter, he is not trying to kill anyone. Quite the contrary. See Quote 4.3.

(One little thing here: in mythology and anthropology the bringer of change is usually Death. Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other. They are Life and Death (or Pestilence and Death, if you want to go that way). No quote here, this is just an opinion.)

 Melissia wrote:
You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

I doubt you have ever read a single page of the background of a Chaos Codex. The first page is number six and it addresses most of your reasonings. You keep posting Imperial propaganda. Get a Codex of a different faction and you will get a different perspective from a different point of view. That´s what makes this setting so interesting. For me, at least.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
For instance, I have a copy of most GW has published about the Sisters of Battle. The Liber Sororitas (white dwarf 293), the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force from the Citadel Journal 49, the Codex: Witch Hunters...

It gives me a completely different perspective and I enjoy it a lot.

^^^OH ALL OF THIS! SO MUCH WINNING IS UP THERE!! ^^^

My Chaos Brethren here just did exactly what I was about to have to do (and this should be on page 1 about Chaos). All of this information is cited in the Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines Codex quiet thoroughly.

Please. Take my Exalt as well, for you sir have done the Legions Infernal proud. +__+

who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

It would probably be pretty gakky for the first couple of centuries but afterwards not that bad. Life for the blood pact can't be that bad considering how they fight against the imperials. The problem with the Imperium is that its founded on ignorance, wether ignorant science pre heresy or ignorant religion later on. With Chaos its like why wear on unbrella when your already wet. Once everyone had accepted the new order their would be no going back, no heresies, probably some wars between the gods and definitily against aliens but I can't imagine that they'd actually have MORE WARS. A Chaos ruled Imperium might actually usher in the unity the Emperor wanted. Who knows, maybe the Emperor wonders if Horus would have done a better job than him and he should have just let him win.

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil, any attempt to moralize or demonize will fail because of this.

This is my opinion on the subject too reading the background of the factions. There are many aspects which are good and bad for all the factions. I still keep the stance that extremes of chaos and order are bad imo. (Which chaos and IOM are and some of the other factions)

Yes there are factors for some good but more evil can be produced from extremes.

 Melissia wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

"Chaos Itself" is defined by the gods. But yes, the gods themselves embrace evil and care about little else. The most devoted worshipers of Chaos reflect the god they follow.

I don´t see how the gods embrace evil.

Perhaps you can argue that the Chaos Gods have little more than the mindsets of bickering children who cannot understand tha other peoples' desires matter

Chaos worshippers are humans, and they can make a choice between evil and good. Thus they can be evil. You keep drawing a comparison between humans and the Chaos Gods. First it was their followers, now their children. It makes no sense. They are not humans in any possible sense. Try to compare them to bees or a virus.

I still think a starving wolf near a human baby is the best example of a Chaos God – human relation. There are lots of points in common:
1) Both the Chaos Gods and the wolf are starving
2) Both need to feed on the human or die. Both would feed without regret.
3) Both are barely intelligent creatures.
4) Both have rudimentary consciousness.
5) Both lack a soul and are unable to make a choice between right and wrong.
6) The wolf is utterly incomprehensible to the baby, the wolf cares nothing for the baby. The same relation applies if you had a Chaos God.
7) Both are beings feeding on another. The wolf and the Chaos God need to eat to remain alive. Why should they starve to benefit the human?

Differences:
1) The wolf is affected by causality. Time applies to it, with words like “present”, “past” or “future” being applicable. Good luck trying to imagine an example including that.
2) The wolf would kill the baby. Chaos Gods are parasites that feed on human emotions. Khorne would try to instill anger in the baby and fail, and Slaanesh and Tzeentch would fail too. Nurgle would instill in the baby a sense of mortality and the human soul would burn with defiance, feeding Nurgle. Nurgle would embrace the baby and try to make it live the longer the better, not because it is a good guy, but because it has no reason to kill his source of energy.

(which says nothing good about them, so you would be denigrating them in trying to defend them).

I am definitely not defending them. Where did you get that from?

The obvious conclusion of the quotes I posted is that most Chaos worshippers are deluded fools who think the Chaos Gods care about them. But they do not. The whims of the gods that make a Champion into spawns are actually the random acts of barely sentient, moronic entities unable to understand what is going on. I am saying they are (spiritual) forces of nature that care nothing. The Chaos religion is a bunch of lies (and so is the Imperial religion).

I don't buy that argument, however; and in adults, we call that lack of caring for other peoples' desires and needs... sociopathy.

I doubt it. They are not humans and words like "sociopath" are mostly used for human beings. Few people would consider a bee, a virus, a thing made of raw emotion or a hurricane "sociopath".

A question for you: you claim Chaos Gods are evil because they feed on humans. Are you evil if you eat a chicken? Why should you care for your food?

 Happyjew wrote:

How do you define evil?

This is a really difficult question and I am not sure I am good enough in your language to properly answer it. I am copy-pasting from the Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil
"Evil is typically associated with conscious and deliberate wrongdoing, discrimination designed to harm others, humiliation of people designed to diminish their psychological needs and dignity, destructiveness, and acts of unnecessary and/or indiscriminate violence." Add the "Theories of moral goodness" below. Important: I don´t think this applies to a not-human being though.

In the case of the Chaos Gods, I think it doesn´t apply, for two reasons:
1) It is necessary (the Chaos Gods will starve if they stop), and it cannot be associated with consciousness or intelligence.
2) Chaos Gods are not humans.

On a personal note, I think GW (and D&D) copy-pasted the Chaos/Law from Michael Moorcock. I think Chaos and Law (Imperium) are supposed to mirror of each other, and highly harmful to humans. And "pure chaos" or "pure law" are, by definition, true neutral.

 Psienesis wrote:

But, again, you seem to be trying to state that I'm saying that the Imperium is somehow a good guy. They aren't, simply less-evil than Chaos... who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

Not exactly a good guy, just a mirror of Chaos. Neutral. By saying that the Imperium is less evil, you are, say, "unbalancing the balance".

My point with the sentence is that the Imperium regime is described as the worst ever. We have some examples of chaos civilizations (the people the Imperium is fighting in the Sabbat Worlds, the characters from Pawns of Chaos or Daemonworld) and they are not in "a bloody and cruel regime that surpasses all human comprehension" at all. They are described as a Roman would describe a barbarian.

 asimo77 wrote:
Also one problem with the line of argumentation that "the gods are beyond mortal understanding" is they really aren't. It's very easy for authors to simply say "this is incomprehensible" but nothing in the canon really supports that. Very little about the gods are that hard to understand, for example: Khorne perpetuates violence.

"No. Sorry, I already quoted you the lines including expressions such "undirected by intelligent purpose" and "unfocused consciousness". Yet you insist that Chaos is "intelligent as hell". You are in denial here."

It seems more likely that the writers can't make up their mind.

I must disagree with that. GW took this stuff from Moorcock and many other sources, which in turn took it all from mythology, anthropology and what not. It is not that the writers can´t make up their mind. They are describing the gods as they have been described since forever. The authors keep saying that the gods are incomprehensible because they are incomprehensible. Countless humans have debated for countless years about what a god is.

In the last editions, the background has been "simplified", which causes a clear lack of coherence. Chaos Undivided is missing for the first time in 6th edition, which deteriorates the setting and causes contradictions. But the stuff they just copy-pasted from previous editions is really interesting, complex and deep.

Your definition of evil is the reason of our disagreement. The starving wolf (or the hurricane we talked about before) is an example of something that cannot be evil in any sense to me. I think a being need to be able to choose between right and wrong (aka "have a soul") to be evil. Having an intelligence or a consciousness also helps. By your definition, the Chaos Gods are evil. No discussion here.

Good point by Happyjew: we do not agree on what "evil" means.

@TheRedWingArmada: thanks!

Well you could argue inanimate objects and things as it were can know "stuff". Does an automatic door know when to open? Does it choose to open? It senses movement in front of it and responds in kind. perhaps in a sense it's a token of a virtuous epistemic agent. Does the Chinese Room know Chinese? Is it conscious? More importantly does it need to be? I'm of the opinion that consciousness is the least important part of existence when it comes to these sorts of questions. Every being could act exactly as it does with or without consciousness and there wouldn't be any discernible difference. Furthermore perhaps it's epistemic chauvinism for us to say certain things can or cannot know, or do or do not have consciousness.

I'd liken the Chaos Gods to computer programs.

They respond to certain events and work within their designed parameters (The emotions creating them) and of course working to survive. The views and lives of beings as infinitely small as humans would mean nothing to them, much like a paramecium doesn't mean gak to us.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'd liken the Chaos Gods to computer programs.

They respond to certain events and work within their designed parameters (The emotions creating them) and of course working to survive. The views and lives of beings as infinitely small as humans would mean nothing to them, much like a paramecium doesn't mean gak to us.

This is pretty accurate, more for illustrating the point I was trying to make earlier about Nurgle being both the Fat-Body and the Manse and all of his minions simultaneously.

Yes, they are extremely powerful, but this is all relative. Same with their intelligence, their pre-set goals and the fragments of emotion that make up the Ruinous Powers mass. I would liken them JUST like a computer program. They are all independently performing according to their parameters, but ultimately they are doing with the computer itself is telling them to do, which is far greater, more powerful and far more mysterious in purpose and grand design than the Big 4 themselves; the computer being the Warp as a whole.

Ultimately, there is nothing that says Nurgle has to exist, because despite being one of the Ruinous 4 he is simply the coalescence of Warp powers called "Nurgle" or "Plague Father," whatever misnomer you choose to give these metaphors given life.

I like the comparison to a computer too.

A good question would be: is there a "programmer"? An entity who is Chaos itself, with the Chaos Gods being facets of aspects of it. This would be the "Primordial Annihilator" the Cabal speaks of in the Horus Heresy novels.

 asimo77 wrote:
Well you could argue inanimate objects and things as it were can know "stuff". Does an automatic door know when to open? Does it choose to open? It senses movement in front of it and responds in kind. perhaps in a sense it's a token of a virtuous epistemic agent. Does the Chinese Room know Chinese? Is it conscious? More importantly does it need to be?

No, it has no intelligence. No, it has no free will. No, since it gives its answers without knowing what does the answers mean (debatable). No. Important for what? Just my opinion, of course.

"Could a Chinese Room be evil?" sounds really strange. Imagine someone believes that what the Room says is a good advice, follows it and dies horribly. Would the Room be evil? Not at all. For me at least is obviously out of the good/evil scale.

I'm of the opinion that consciousness is the least important part of existence when it comes to these sorts of questions. Every being could act exactly as it does with or without consciousness and there wouldn't be any discernible difference. Furthermore perhaps it's epistemic chauvinism for us to say certain things can or cannot know, or do or do not have consciousness.

Perhaps, but it would be even worse to project our concept of good/evil to something that is not human. In the setting, judging the Eldar, the Tyranid or the Orks from a human perspective would be unfair. Chaos Gods are even more alien.

What do you think about Necrons? Are they evil?

 da001 wrote:
I like the comparison to a computer too. A good question would be: is there a "programmer"? An entity who is Chaos itself, with the Chaos Gods being facets of aspects of it. This would be the "Primordial Annihilator" the Cabal speaks of in the Horus Heresy novels.

I believe the true force behind Chaos is the Human race itself. In the end, the Chaos Gods are our creations. Deep inside every human there's the primal need to tear down the shackles of law, civilization and culture and return to a state of animalistic atavism, the Ruinous Powers being at the same time cause and consequence of this.

What about Nicassars, Orks, Eldar, Saruthi and the rest? Many races have a presence in the warp.

Which brings more questions: are the gods the same for all races? We know that is not the case: Mork and Gork are the most obvious example. Is the Warp a different "place" then for every race?

If the gods were really THAT unintelligent, you wouldn't have things like Tzeentch throwing a hissy fit demanding to know how a little girl managed to get past his impossible maze. Again, you wouldn't have Slaanesh getting angry at the Masque when the Masque was trying to cheer her up. In addition to this, you wouldn't be able to have conversations with demons in general, when in fact they actually display a scary degree of intelligence if you can manage to get one to talk to you (which IS possible to do, even with Khorne demons, albeit quite difficult)

People actually DISCUSS things with daemons on rare occassions. That's not something an unintelligent nonsentient being with no free will can do.

The thing is those entities could have no sentience, intelligence, free will, etc. and act the same way without anyone being able to tell the difference. That's why I don't think any of those things should be a prerequisite for good or evil.

@ da001 I didn't mean to ask could the Chinese Room be evil but was using it to get across the point that identifying what are thinking, knowing, conscious things is no easy task. More importantly despite those properties things with those properties can produce the same consequence as things without them, I think we should look to consequence to help judge what is right and wrong.

As for projecting our sense of good and evil, I think it's just as selfish to keep those concepts just to humans, or more accurately persons. Also if you define good and evil as irreducible properties I don't think there should be any trouble applying them to other species, then we have a universal definition for them.

Finally as a die hard Necron fanboy I of course think they are always in the right , though more seriously yes I think they are evil, like pretty much everyone else in the setting.

TiamatRoar wrote:
If the gods were really THAT unintelligent, you wouldn't have things like Tzeentch throwing a hissy fit demanding to know how a little girl managed to get past his impossible maze. Again, you wouldn't have Slaanesh getting angry at the Masque when the Masque was trying to cheer her up. In addition to this, you wouldn't be able to have conversations with demons in general, when in fact they actually display a scary degree of intelligence if you can manage to get one to talk to you (which IS possible to do, even with Khorne demons, albeit quite difficult)

People actually DISCUSS things with daemons on rare occassions. That's not something an unintelligent nonsentient being with no free will can do.

Tzeentch throwing a hissy fit translates as such to humans, sure, but that is merely as I said, a translation.

As for Daemons, Daemons are not the Gods. Daemons are self-contained pockets of stability within the Realms of Chaos. They can change and think independently of their patron god or of the emotions of the galaxy itself. They have a preordained nature that's basis is in the emotions their god used to create them, but they can change, and think.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
If the gods were really THAT unintelligent, you wouldn't have things like Tzeentch throwing a hissy fit demanding to know how a little girl managed to get past his impossible maze. Again, you wouldn't have Slaanesh getting angry at the Masque when the Masque was trying to cheer her up. In addition to this, you wouldn't be able to have conversations with demons in general, when in fact they actually display a scary degree of intelligence if you can manage to get one to talk to you (which IS possible to do, even with Khorne demons, albeit quite difficult)

People actually DISCUSS things with daemons on rare occassions. That's not something an unintelligent nonsentient being with no free will can do.

Tzeentch throwing a hissy fit translates as such to humans, sure, but that is merely as I said, a translation.

As for Daemons, Daemons are not the Gods. Daemons are self-contained pockets of stability within the Realms of Chaos. They can change and think independently of their patron god or of the emotions of the galaxy itself. They have a preordained nature that's basis is in the emotions their god used to create them, but they can change, and think.

Here is something else I'd like the Imperium to consider before passing judgment on the Daemons of Chaos. Look at the Daemons Codex itself and compare it to the Chaos Space Marines codex. The first thing that probably goes unnoticed should be the artistry used on the Daemons codex. In the CSM codex, the pictures are painted as if they were drawn straight from the battlefield. I'd gather that the Space Marines codex follows this same line. That's because those are depictions of things that have been seen and recorded outright. There is documentation, veterans, survivors, shipwrights, etc. that exist which can attest to these events as they are portrayed. The pictures look real.

In the Chaos Daemons codex, this is not the case except with a few of the earlier murals. The pictures in the Legions Infernal look more like cartoons scribbled by mad men during happy time at the Inquisitorial Asylums. This is because the Warp can only be expressed in abstractions, metaphors and the like. There are no official records past the Ordo Maleus that are available to the average IoM citizenry. Where-as, while the CSM's are a well kept secret, they're not as well kept as the existence of the Daemons themselves. This is because much of the Imperium would turn to Chaos if they knew the truth that the Chaos Gods had it well within their power to bestow power beyond mortal imagination. This is why so many citizens turn to Chaos in the first place, let alone Space Marine Chapters, and this is with Chaos being a well-guarded secret and all that jazz. A secret within a riddle, wrapped up in a lie, tied together with a legend and sprinkled with a touch of fear and heresy to ensure more people stay away from the package itself.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

As for Daemons, Daemons are not the Gods. Daemons are self-contained pockets of stability within the Realms of Chaos. They can change and think independently of their patron god or of the emotions of the galaxy itself. They have a preordained nature that's basis is in the emotions their god used to create them, but they can change, and think.

Do you think Daemons are more sentient and free-willed than the gods that created them or something? I find it hard to believe there's such a difference between the two, considering that a god becomes a daemon if it loses too much power (basically showing that the only real difference between a chaos god and a chaos daemon is just a matter of scale)

(as an aside, in case anyone still doesn't believe daemons are free-willed or at least initially free-willed, Tzeentch's oldest lord of change Auros Ras Kais however-you-spell-his-name is explicitly stated that he had to have his free will bound up by Tzeentch. And Skarbrand had his "sentience" (the word used, assuming my memory isn't off) throttled out of him by Khorne)

If Daemons are free-willed, then logic would be that gods are free-willed too, considering that the gods become daemons if they lose too much power in the first place.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Do you think Daemons are more sentient and free-willed than the gods that created them or something? I find it hard to believe there's such a difference between the two, considering that a god becomes a daemon if it loses too much power (basically showing that the only real difference between a chaos god and a chaos daemon is just a matter of scale)

(as an aside, in case anyone still doesn't believe daemons are free-willed or at least initially free-willed, Tzeentch's oldest lord of change Auros Ras Kais however-you-spell-his-name is explicitly stated that he had to have his free will bound up by Tzeentch. And Skarbrand had his "sentience" (the word used, assuming my memory isn't off) throttled out of him by Khorne)

If Daemons are free-willed, then logic would be that gods are free-willed too, considering that the gods become daemons if they lose too much power in the first place.

To be honest I have no idea what you are talking about, concerning the gods becoming Daemons if they lose enough power.

I do know that a Daemon is explicitly cut off from the emotions that power and dictate the nature of the god they serve.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

Do you think Daemons are more sentient and free-willed than the gods that created them or something? I find it hard to believe there's such a difference between the two, considering that a god becomes a daemon if it loses too much power (basically showing that the only real difference between a chaos god and a chaos daemon is just a matter of scale)

(as an aside, in case anyone still doesn't believe daemons are free-willed or at least initially free-willed, Tzeentch's oldest lord of change Auros Ras Kais however-you-spell-his-name is explicitly stated that he had to have his free will bound up by Tzeentch. And Skarbrand had his "sentience" (the word used, assuming my memory isn't off) throttled out of him by Khorne)

If Daemons are free-willed, then logic would be that gods are free-willed too, considering that the gods become daemons if they lose too much power in the first place.

To be honest I have no idea what you are talking about, concerning the gods becoming Daemons if they lose enough power.

I do know that a Daemon is explicitly cut off from the emotions that power and dictate the nature of the god they serve.

I'm only kind of following this line of thought as well. I think what isn't being understood is the difference between the Chaos Gods and the Daemons they Spawn. A Daemon is created when a Chaos God expends a measure of his power to, for lack of a better word, enchant or bless a spirit (or thought-form/w.e) with it's energy. This is why mortals are so important and so much fun to corrupt, because they make great Daemons and Daemons are important to the Gods for this reason specifically; because the Chaos Gods are tied directly to the Warp, they cannot breach real space as their Daemon Minions can. However, their Daemon Minions can affect real space enough, to render it unto Warp Space and thus bring the Chaos Gods "into existence" at that place in time.

Talking about the Chaos Gods themselves losing power and "becoming Daemons," they don't become Daemons; they become consumed by greater Warp Gods that lurk. Even now there are still even greater presences in the Warp than that of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh (respectively and combined), but lack a "sentience" enough to organize as the Big 4 do, which give them a considerable advantage. At any time they could be replaced, but the nature of their being will never change, nor does the nature of the greater gods that could consume them change either. This is the Paradox of the Warp. The Chaos Gods are enslaved to the Warp, and so they go about enslaving mortals to themselves. This is why mortals have the advantage of being "better than/stronger than" daemons. Choice is the ultimate weapon against them, something that they themselves crave and steal, but never have. The reason why Chaos will conqueror the universe without any of the Gods themselves achieving their ultimate objective.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Do you think Daemons are more sentient and free-willed than the gods that created them or something? I find it hard to believe there's such a difference between the two, considering that a god becomes a daemon if it loses too much power (basically showing that the only real difference between a chaos god and a chaos daemon is just a matter of scale) (...)
If Daemons are free-willed, then logic would be that gods are free-willed too, considering that the gods become daemons if they lose too much power in the first place.

Never heard of that. Daemons and Chaos Gods are quite different beings as far as I know. Time for a new quote:

Codex: Chaos Daemons. Page 7, Chaos Daemons entry:
"Daemons are beings of a somewhat different nature to their masters (...). A Daemon is "born" when a Chaos God expends a portion of its power to create a separate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, creating a personality and a consciousness that can move within the Warp" "(Daemons) are not so closely bound to the Warp."

So the differences are:
1) Daemons have senses (Chaos Gods do not, page 6).
2) Daemons have thoughts and purposes (Chaos Gods lack the first, page 6; they have a single purpose: domination).
3) Daemons have personality (I think page 6 implies Chaos Gods do not, though it is arguable).
4) Daemons have consciousness (Chaos Gods have a rudimentary consciousness, page 6).
5) Daemons can move within the Warp (Chaos Gods are trapped in certain locations or, to put it better, they ARE the positions themselves, page 6).
6) Daemons are not so closely bound to the Warp (Chaos Gods cannot scape the Warp, they ARE the Warp, page 6).

TiamatRoar wrote:
If the gods were really THAT unintelligent, you wouldn't have things like Tzeentch throwing a hissy fit demanding to know how a little girl managed to get past his impossible maze. Again, you wouldn't have Slaanesh getting angry at the Masque when the Masque was trying to cheer her up. In addition to this, you wouldn't be able to have conversations with demons in general, when in fact they actually display a scary degree of intelligence if you can manage to get one to talk to you (which IS possible to do, even with Khorne demons, albeit quite difficult)

“The Realm of Chaos exists far outside imagination; an impossible abstraction made real only by metaphor and the roiling emotions of mortal mind. (…) No mundane sense can see, smell or hear it”

They are supposed to be tales, allegories, metaphors. Just like the tales about the Greek gods or, well, the tales about any gods humans have worshipped.

 asimo77 wrote:
The thing is those entities could have no sentience, intelligence, free will, etc. and act the same way without anyone being able to tell the difference. That's why I don't think any of those things should be a prerequisite for good or evil.

Which turns us back to the "definition of evil" problem I am unable to understand how words like "good" or "evil" can be applied to something so alien we don´t even know how to properly describe it. And I don´t think the word evil should be applied to a wolf feeding on a human or a cow feeding on grass.

Also, what about you while eating a chicken? You are feeding on something like a Chaos God feeds on humans.

As for projecting our sense of good and evil, I think it's just as selfish to keep those concepts just to humans, or more accurately persons. Also if you define good and evil as irreducible properties I don't think there should be any trouble applying them to other species, then we have a universal definition for them.

It is still a prejudice, a derogatory, pejorative term applied to something that is not human and, actually, feed on humans. I don´t think is selfish to keep the word to humans. It is a human concept. The Ork concept of good or evil would probably be different.

Finally as a die hard Necron fanboy I of course think they are always in the right , though more seriously yes I think they are evil, like pretty much everyone else in the setting.

Which I find senseless. They have no soul. How they could be evil?
Yet it still depends, of course, of your definition of "soul".

It's on both Lexicanum and the wiki. though neither says where it comes from so I guess it could be wrong. If someone knows where it comes from, I'd be much obliged if you could point it out.

The least of the minor gods may be so limited in their power that expending their power to create a daemon means their entire power is expended; in effect, the god becomes a daemon.

As daemons have explicitly been stated to have sentience and free will on several occasions (Skarbrand and ARK, before Khorne throttled it out of him and Tzeentch placed bindings on him, at least), if this aspect of gods to daemons is true, then gods having free will is unarguable.

TiamatRoar wrote:
As daemons have explicitly been stated to have sentience and free will on several occasions (Skarbrand and ARK, before Khorne throttled it out of him and Tzeentch placed bindings on him, at least), if this aspect of gods to daemons is true, then gods having free will is unarguable.

Daemons enter real-space, and that is where they are (by and large) encountered. This may sound off, but what if real-space infects the daemon?

You know how mold can grow on cheese (or bread, meat, w/e) when left alone in the dark with a touch of moisture? Kay, think of a Bloodletter as the meat, The Warp is the fridge, and real-space (the materium) is that dank little corner under the fridge. Rather then taking a couple of days, it takes mere seconds for the Bloodletter to be altered by real-space. He is not surrounded by the Warp; cut off from all but the barest sliver of Khorne's power. His form stagnates, hell, he has a form at all! Clearly reality has a drastic effect on daemons, what if free-will / thought was one of them?
The daemons who are affected by the Gods in the warp just suffer the effects of the Gods attention. Skarbrand lost some of his power (Khorne stripped him of it). ARK was altered by Tzeentch in some fashion (added more power, removed some brick-a-brack) ect. ect. What we (humans) see as a loss of some ability or gains in other powers aren't the result of the deities careful considerations, it's just the end result of a power flux.

Gotta say I like how this is going though... We've moved past arguing if Chaos is evil and onto the level of thought and free-will it possesses

The emperor eats 10,000 people a day, that's pretty evil in my opinion.

Lord of Lustria wrote:. Can you really say that all of them are any more evil than the imperium?

Yes.

One thing is always true in 40K. The Imperium is bad, but Chaos is always worse.

TiamatRoar wrote:

As daemons have explicitly been stated to have sentience and free will on several occasions (Skarbrand and ARK, before Khorne throttled it out of him and Tzeentch placed bindings on him, at least), if this aspect of gods to daemons is true, then gods having free will is unarguable.

Yet I have quoted you over and over and over again the places where it clearly states that they lack such a thing...

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's on both Lexicanum and the wiki. though neither says where it comes from so I guess it could be wrong. If someone knows where it comes from, I'd be much obliged if you could point it out.

The least of the minor gods may be so limited in their power that expending their power to create a daemon means their entire power is expended; in effect, the god becomes a daemon.

The bit about the Chaos Gods turning Chaos Daemons is coming from 1st edition, Rogue Trader, the Realm of Chaos books. We are moving 25 years back in time to 1988. A lot of things have changed in the setting… however, I like old fluff.

In the first volume, Slave of Darkness (1988) the Chaos Gods are described (page 212) as "mindless and unthinking", yet with a crude consciousness, "aware only in the crudest of ways". No surprises here. They are made of raw emotion, and so on. They are compared to storms, and I think it is implied that Warpstorms can be part of a God (a mouth I guess, nice concept). The clearest difference from 6th edition fluff is the existence of Minor Powers of Chaos. They "coalesce from the Warp for a brief time", and while they hold together they "achieve intelligence, personality and purpose". "They waste their substance upon the Warp, and dissolve once more into formless Chaos".

Not a word about becoming a Daemon yet. But we see a big difference between the big ones and the little ones: intelligence, personality and purpose, all three things usually asociated with Daemons, yet not Chaos Gods.

The section about Chaos Daemons (213) describes them as "beings of a completely different order to their masters". Again, the Daemons have personality and consciousness, and are able to move within the warp.

However, page 213 also says this: "The lesser Chaos Powers can also give birth to a Daemon. The ripples of warpspace create short lived and very minor Powers, some of whom invest all their energy in a single Daemon. They ‘become’ the Daemon, and gain independence from the Warp´s ceaseless currents (…) Such Daemons are crude, insensate beings and even by the measures of Chaos, they are fickle. Only the weakest Powers choose such an existence". Notice that the Daemon dies while doing this, which is the reason why ‘becoming’ is between ‘’. Then there is a section about other beings such as Enslavers and Astral Hounds.

The second volume, The Lost and the Damned (1990) dedicates 18 pages to the Lesser Chaos Daemons, saying that they are “in the process of creation” or “ancient Powers whose potency has waned”. No references to Chaos Gods becoming Daemons, but there are powerful independent Daemons (some of them quite cool) with no explanation about how they were created. I am assuming they are the Chaos Gods that created a Daemon and died, thus creating an independent Daemon and, somehow, ‘becoming’ it.

I don´t know if this helped you or not, but it was quite a time since I read that and I am enjoying it.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:

Gotta say I like how this is going though... We've moved past arguing if Chaos is evil and onto the level of thought and free-will it possesses

Yeah I noticed that too.

We have given so many reasonings for Chaos not being evil that the topic has moved to cherry-picking sentences to discuss one of the conditions needed for the Chaos Gods to be evil. Except for those who just entered the thread...

 da001 wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

As daemons have explicitly been stated to have sentience and free will on several occasions (Skarbrand and ARK, before Khorne throttled it out of him and Tzeentch placed bindings on him, at least), if this aspect of gods to daemons is true, then gods having free will is unarguable.

Yet I have quoted you over and over and over again the places where it clearly states that they lack such a thing...

TiamatRoar wrote:
It's on both Lexicanum and the wiki. though neither says where it comes from so I guess it could be wrong. If someone knows where it comes from, I'd be much obliged if you could point it out.

The least of the minor gods may be so limited in their power that expending their power to create a daemon means their entire power is expended; in effect, the god becomes a daemon.

The bit about the Chaos Gods turning Chaos Daemons is coming from 1st edition, Rogue Trader, the Realm of Chaos books. We are moving 25 years back in time to 1988. A lot of things have changed in the setting… however, I like old fluff.

In the first volume, Slave of Darkness (1988) the Chaos Gods are described (page 212) as "mindless and unthinking", yet with a crude consciousness, "aware only in the crudest of ways". No surprises here. They are made of raw emotion, and so on. They are compared to storms, and I think it is implied that Warpstorms can be part of a God (a mouth I guess, nice concept). The clearest difference from 6th edition fluff is the existence of Minor Powers of Chaos. They "coalesce from the Warp for a brief time", and while they hold together they "achieve intelligence, personality and purpose". "They waste their substance upon the Warp, and dissolve once more into formless Chaos".

Not a word about becoming a Daemon yet. But we see a big difference between the big ones and the little ones: intelligence, personality and purpose, all three things usually asociated with Daemons, yet not Chaos Gods.

The section about Chaos Daemons (213) describes them as "beings of a completely different order to their masters". Again, the Daemons have personality and consciousness, and are able to move within the warp.

However, page 213 also says this: "The lesser Chaos Powers can also give birth to a Daemon. The ripples of warpspace create short lived and very minor Powers, some of whom invest all their energy in a single Daemon. They ‘become’ the Daemon, and gain independence from the Warp´s ceaseless currents (…) Such Daemons are crude, insensate beings and even by the measures of Chaos, they are fickle. Only the weakest Powers choose such an existence". Notice that the Daemon dies while doing this, which is the reason why ‘becoming’ is between ‘’. Then there is a section about other beings such as Enslavers and Astral Hounds.

The second volume, The Lost and the Damned (1990) dedicates 18 pages to the Lesser Chaos Daemons, saying that they are “in the process of creation” or “ancient Powers whose potency has waned”. No references to Chaos Gods becoming Daemons, but there are powerful independent Daemons (some of them quite cool) with no explanation about how they were created. I am assuming they are the Chaos Gods that created a Daemon and died, thus creating an independent Daemon and, somehow, ‘becoming’ it.

I don´t know if this helped you or not, but it was quite a time since I read that and I am enjoying it.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:

Gotta say I like how this is going though... We've moved past arguing if Chaos is evil and onto the level of thought and free-will it possesses

Yeah I noticed that too.

We have given so many reasonings for Chaos not being evil that the topic has moved to cherry-picking sentences to discuss one of the conditions needed for the Chaos Gods to be evil. Except for those who just entered the thread...

Or maybe one side has given up trying to convince the other :p

Quiet simply, we have a fundamental difference of structure going on here. On the one hand, you have us Oracles of Chaos letting everyone know how it works and on the other we have Imperial Propaganda that is too afraid of it's own shadow...which is what Chaos apparently is. lol

I find that dichotomy far more amusing than Good v. Evil - Blah v. Blah.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Quiet simply, we have a fundamental difference of structure going on here. On the one hand, you have us Oracles of Chaos letting everyone know how it works and on the other we have Imperial Propaganda that is too afraid of it's own shadow...which is what Chaos apparently is. lol

I find that dichotomy far more amusing than Good v. Evil - Blah v. Blah.

Heh, I really like this post since it is somewhat true, I have been keeping an eye on this topic since its really interesting to read people's posts on chaos.

Kaesoron wrote:

who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

It would probably be pretty gakky for the first couple of centuries but afterwards not that bad. Life for the blood pact can't be that bad considering how they fight against the imperials. The problem with the Imperium is that its founded on ignorance, wether ignorant science pre heresy or ignorant religion later on. With Chaos its like why wear on unbrella when your already wet. Once everyone had accepted the new order their would be no going back, no heresies, probably some wars between the gods and definitily against aliens but I can't imagine that they'd actually have MORE WARS. A Chaos ruled Imperium might actually usher in the unity the Emperor wanted. Who knows, maybe the Emperor wonders if Horus would have done a better job than him and he should have just let him win.

The Blood Pact, being a creation of Dan Abnett, seems absolutely predicated on cruelty. Do you remember the descriptions of the Blood Pact soldiers? How horrifically scarred they were from their pain-rites, the mind-destroying chemicals they were pumped full of before every battle? Why? To what end?

The glory of Chaos. They are *pawns*, to be used now in the service of their masters and cast aside when they are no longer useful.

There is no unity in Chaos. The Ruinous Powers fight constantly between one another. Hell, Tzeentch fights with *himself* all the time. A planet ruled by Khorne will wage eternal, unceasin war against a planet ruled by Slaanesh. A Tzeentchian planet will undergo a radical, bloody revolution every time Tzeentch gets bored, because that is how the Changer of the Ways rolls.

I don´t see how the gods embrace evil.

Slaanesh feeds on depravity and perversion. S/he will direct hir servants to perform the most perverse, debased actions in order to fuel Hir powers.

 da001 wrote:
What about Nicassars, Orks, Eldar, Saruthi and the rest? Many races have a presence in the warp.

Which brings more questions: are the gods the same for all races? We know that is not the case: Mork and Gork are the most obvious example. Is the Warp a different "place" then for every race?

Good questions.

Orks strike me as much more alien that they seem at first glance. That may be the reason why they have managed to stay apart, to create their own bubble within the warp. The mindset of an ork is probably impregnable to other races, that's why I'm led to believe Gork and Mork don't pay attention nor receive sustenance from any other races.

As for "shared" gods, only the Chaos Gods seem to appeal to a variety of races. I think society and culture play an important part in the process of spawning gods in the warp.

Take the Eldar. Vaul, Isha, Asuryan, Khaine... were created at a time when Eldar culture and society kept their lower instincts in check, the Eldar pantheon being an ideallized mirror image of their own feelings, aspirations and societal values. But at some point, Eldar society collapsed. The rules that bound generations came apart, and the true primal side of the Eldar surfaced - creative, hedonistic, capricious beings that won't stop short of killing to get their fix of earthly pleasures. And so, Slaanesh came into being. Their earlier pantheon was exclusive to the Eldar culture. Slaanesh, created by raw emotion, in absence of reason, law and cultural constraints, is universal (or, at least, shared by races which can feel the same emotions that spawned it).

 Psienesis wrote:

Kaesoron wrote:

who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

It would probably be pretty gakky for the first couple of centuries but afterwards not that bad. Life for the blood pact can't be that bad considering how they fight against the imperials. The problem with the Imperium is that its founded on ignorance, wether ignorant science pre heresy or ignorant religion later on. With Chaos its like why wear on unbrella when your already wet. Once everyone had accepted the new order their would be no going back, no heresies, probably some wars between the gods and definitily against aliens but I can't imagine that they'd actually have MORE WARS. A Chaos ruled Imperium might actually usher in the unity the Emperor wanted. Who knows, maybe the Emperor wonders if Horus would have done a better job than him and he should have just let him win.

The Blood Pact, being a creation of Dan Abnett, seems absolutely predicated on cruelty. Do you remember the descriptions of the Blood Pact soldiers? How horrifically scarred they were from their pain-rites, the mind-destroying chemicals they were pumped full of before every battle? Why? To what end?

The glory of Chaos. They are *pawns*, to be used now in the service of their masters and cast aside when they are no longer useful.

There is no unity in Chaos. The Ruinous Powers fight constantly between one another. Hell, Tzeentch fights with *himself* all the time. A planet ruled by Khorne will wage eternal, unceasin war against a planet ruled by Slaanesh. A Tzeentchian planet will undergo a radical, bloody revolution every time Tzeentch gets bored, because that is how the Changer of the Ways rolls.

I don´t see how the gods embrace evil.

Slaanesh feeds on depravity and perversion. S/he will direct hir servants to perform the most perverse, debased actions in order to fuel Hir powers.

So.... The Blood Pact are (primarily) written about from the perspective of Gaunt's Ghosts, who are, ya know, Imperial. Additionally, at the time of the writings, the Sabbat worlds are at war. Nothing in the 40k universe looks its best in the midst of a segmentum wide brawl. Hive cities go into lock down, production has to be sped up to the point of mangling their own workers, and summary executions become the proverbial 'rooster crow' of each morning. And that would be the IMPERIAL worlds. Additionally, most of the Chaos worlds explored are losing ground, and so have to force even more hellish conditions onto their troops and subjugated peoples to hold onto their territory. And when I mean subjugated people, I mean civilian populations that haven't fully given over to worship of Chaos, an occupied populace. While native Chaos worshipers might not fare much better, we have to remember that what we are most often showed is the few flagging loyalists being whipped, beaten, and executed. We're supposed to think of it as 'terrible' and 'evil', that's the goal, to make us sympathize more with the Ghosts and the Imperium as a whole.
The last reason we might see such barbarity is spite, a sort of 'scorched earth' policy to deny the IoM any real benefit from their wins. No surviving populace, industry smashed to all hell, land mines sowed across the everywhere. And before you (or others) try and condemn such practices, I'd like to point out 'Kryptman's Cordon'. When Hive Fleet Leviathan began tearing apart the IoM, Lord Inquisitor Kryptman ordered a succession of worlds subjected to Exterminatus just after the Tyranids had captured them. Imperial citizens were still on the planets; and they were sacrificed by the billions in 'the single largest act of genocide upon the IoM since the HH' (Tyranid Codex, 4th ed). When confronted by the Tau, Ultramarine Captain "The Codex does not support this action!" Uriel Ventris promised to Exterminatus Pavonis rather then let the Tau claim it (Courage and Honor).

So, back to square ? Yeah, back to square ...

@Agent_Tremolo: interesting thoughts.

IF the Warp is different for every sentient being, then space-travel is different too. That means that the routes in the Warp humanity follows are completely different from those of, say, the Fra´al or the Rak´Gol. The human Empire is scattered through the stars with big chunks of "unexplored territory" in the middle. Following this reasoning, this "unexplored galactic territory" would be associated to an "unexplored emotional territory", an emotion or set of emotions humans are not capable of.

I will do a proper research about the matter as soon as Real Life allows me so.

 Psienesis wrote:

The Blood Pact, being a creation of Dan Abnett, seems absolutely predicated on cruelty. Do you remember the descriptions of the Blood Pact soldiers? How horrifically scarred they were from their pain-rites, the mind-destroying chemicals they were pumped full of before every battle? Why? To what end?

The glory of Chaos. They are *pawns*, to be used now in the service of their masters and cast aside when they are no longer useful.

My answer would be a copy-paste of what LoyalistAlphaLegion just said. However, I would like to point out a couple of things.

First point: The Blood Pact is in itself a good example of a cult that is part of a stable civilization. The political entity fighting the Imperium on the Sabbat Worlds (called "Sanguinary Worlds" by imperial propaganda) has been there since before the Heresy. If they were mindless butchers, they would have been unable to do so. You need engineers to build a space fleet, you need teachers and schools to get engineers, you need a lot of things not possible in a Khorne-worshipping society as the Imperium depicts it. Conclusion: it is a lie. Propaganda.

Second point: In "The Eye of Terror", two Daemons (a Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change) have a petty dispute. To resolve it, they create a bridge between two worlds full of humans (their followers), and an apocalyptic war ensues. A victor is proclaimed with both sides reduced to an age of stone. Then, the Daemons accord to build an army. They merge the two worlds in one and survivals of both sides are told to cooperate and prepare for war. The Daemons leave, let a brief instant for them to pass, and when they are back (in a split second) two thousand years have passed. The survivals had developed a powerful space fleet, bigger and more powerful than the Imperial Warfleet Obscurus, the one guarding the Eye of Terror. They are commanded to attack, but the materials they used to build the fleet are not... "stable" out of the Eye of Terror, and the army is completely destroyed. Everyone dies, and the Daemons attention focused on something else.

Cruel? Yes. Playthings of the Daemons? Yes. Two thousand years of peace and development? Yes. What happen to the world after that? Life goes on. It is a Daemonworld like many more.

I don´t see how the gods embrace evil.

Slaanesh feeds on depravity and perversion. S/he will direct hir servants to perform the most perverse, debased actions in order to fuel Hir powers.

1) Slaanesh does not direct its followers. That would cause it to waste its power. Slaanesh exists as the possibility for any entity with free will to perform an act of depravity... among many other things. “He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in all things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania.” “… wherever the lust for power and temporal gain exists, the talons of Slaanesh dig deep.” The Chaos Gods get more powerful when someone willingly uses them, and get weaker when they need to force their extremely crude will on others.

2) Nurgle loves everything, that´s what the background says. Let it sink in: Nurgle.Loves.Everything

So.... The Blood Pact are (primarily) written about from the perspective of Gaunt's Ghosts, who are, ya know, Imperial. Additionally, at the time of the writings, the Sabbat worlds are at war. Nothing in the 40k universe looks its best in the midst of a segmentum wide brawl. Hive cities go into lock down, production has to be sped up to the point of mangling their own workers, and summary executions become the proverbial 'rooster crow' of each morning. And that would be the IMPERIAL worlds. Additionally, most of the Chaos worlds explored are losing ground, and so have to force even more hellish conditions onto their troops and subjugated peoples to hold onto their territory. And when I mean subjugated people, I mean civilian populations that haven't fully given over to worship of Chaos, an occupied populace. While native Chaos worshipers might not fare much better, we have to remember that what we are most often showed is the few flagging loyalists being whipped, beaten, and executed. We're supposed to think of it as 'terrible' and 'evil', that's the goal, to make us sympathize more with the Ghosts and the Imperium as a whole.
The last reason we might see such barbarity is spite, a sort of 'scorched earth' policy to deny the IoM any real benefit from their wins. No surviving populace, industry smashed to all hell, land mines sowed across the everywhere. And before you (or others) try and condemn such practices, I'd like to point out 'Kryptman's Cordon'. When Hive Fleet Leviathan began tearing apart the IoM, Lord Inquisitor Kryptman ordered a succession of worlds subjected to Exterminatus just after the Tyranids had captured them. Imperial citizens were still on the planets; and they were sacrificed by the billions in 'the single largest act of genocide upon the IoM since the HH' (Tyranid Codex, 4th ed). When confronted by the Tau, Ultramarine Captain "The Codex does not support this action!" Uriel Ventris promised to Exterminatus Pavonis rather then let the Tau claim it (Courage and Honor).

You are making the same mistake that others have been making this entire thread.

THE IMPERIUM IS NOT "GOOD". THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS IN 40K.

I say again:

THE IMPERIUM IS NOT GOOD. IT IS EVIL. IT IS JUST LESS-EVIL THAN CHAOS.

How many fething times must this be repeated?

I think many people assume that Good - Evil is not an absolute, it is a balance. Like heat - cold.

By saying "the Imperium is less evil than Chaos" you are (for me) somehow implying that you believe there is a "relative" good: Imperium, and a "relative" evil, Chaos. So you are defending a "good Vs evil" (or a "less evil Vs less good") simple setting. I cannot agree with that, so I try to convince you that "Chaos is not that evil"... or that the "Imperium is not that good". For me, both sentences are more or less the same.

I get your point, however. You see Chaos and Imperium as different entities, and one of them is evil and the other is evil too, but less. I see Chaos and Imperium being the two plates of a Balance. The balance is Good. Unbalance is Evil, no matter the side. The plates are plates, uncaring and unintelligent, they cannot be evil or good.

Coming to think of it, you could always ignore the "Imperium part" of this kind of reasonings. In the post written by LoyalistAlphaLegion he actually addresses your point about the Blood Pact.

The Imperium *is* a relative good. It is less-evil than Chaos. A Chaotic society might be all fine and dandy... until some visiting member of the World Eater Legion decides to cut your head off because he was bored. Or because a member of the Emperor's Children thought you, your wife, your children, your family pet and four random inanimate objects were giving him "the lusty eye" and so he decided to have his tentacle-limbed way with you.

The Blood Pact is, with the information presented to us, evil as feth. They burn, pillage, destroy, rape, murder... and this is not even started on what they do to Imperial planets they land on. They are a nasty, nasty bunch of work for professional soldiers... and few, if any, of them are Traitor Guard. The Blood Pact are born and raised on Chaos-held worlds, rather than being Imperial Guardsmen who then turn to Chaos. They are some mean motherfethers.

If you're coming into this, asking the question as to whether or not Chaos is not as evil as we expected, then the resounding answer is no, it was exactly as evil as I expected, perhaps more so. This added-on parameter of the argument of whether or not Chaos and the Imperium exist as some sort of "balance" to one another is not present in the original question and is, frankly, irrelevant. Balance does not exist inherently to one or the other of these, for both are evil, but one is Chaos and the other is Order, Balance is found in the conflicts between the two... and that is the point that Moorcock was making.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Imperium *is* a relative good. It is less-evil than Chaos.

Wrong

A Chaotic society might be all fine and dandy... until some visiting member of the World Eater Legion decides to cut your head off because he was bored. Or because a member of the Emperor's Children thought you, your wife, your children, your family pet and four random inanimate objects were giving him "the lusty eye" and so he decided to have his tentacle-limbed way with you

Or not. You could stay two thousand years living far better than in the average planet.

And something quite similar can happen to you in the Imperium. Note than I am focusing in the "less-evil than Chaos" point.

This added-on parameter of the argument of whether or not Chaos and the Imperium exist as some sort of "balance" to one another is not present in the original question and is, frankly, irrelevant. Balance does not exist inherently to one or the other of these, for both are evil, but one is Chaos and the other is Order, Balance is found in the conflicts between the two... and that is the point that Moorcock was making.

And the point I am making too. Claiming that one of the plates of the Balance is less-evil than the other invalidates the Chaos/Order equilibrium.

At this point, however, I think we have exhausted the topic. To begin with, we are no longer talking about Chaos (the barely sentient beings made of raw emotion) but about their human followers. And humans are capable of both good and evil. I think I have provided enough quotes to prove at least one thing: the Chaos Gods do not care about mortals. All those worlds are ruled by humans. By using their free will, those humans may become good or evil. It is their choice.

And the point I am making too. Claiming that one of the plates of the Balance is less-evil than the other invalidates the Chaos/Order equilibrium.

But that wasn't your question. Your question boils down to "Is Chaos evil?" and the answer is "Yes. Yes, it is."

the Chaos Gods do not care about mortals

You're right, they don't, which is why they are free to use and abuse them as much as is their wont, to bring to the galaxy an eternity of carnage and slaughter to the mocking laughter of thirsting gods. Which makes them evil.