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 Swastakowey wrote:
it seems most of his points drift away from chaos and go more into the imperium. The topic is chaos evil. Its a simple yes or no question.

Good and evil are defined by opposites. My point is that both Chaos and the Imperium mirror each other, like the Forces of Chaos and the Forces of Order in classic fantasy. To quote again the Culexus assassin from 'Seventh Retribution': "But you and I, Lysander, know the war we fight is not a matter of right or wrong. It is a clash between two different flavors of amorality..."

The intentions, needs, actions and wants of chaos (even when the defence describes them) are evil. All that da001 is trying to do is excuse that evil based on weird trains of thought.

My train of thought is simple. Psienesis just summarized it here:

 Psienesis wrote:

Is it the act that makes it evil, or the intent behind the act?

For me, it is the intent.

 Swastakowey wrote:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evil
Sound like chaos to you...

True. By most of these definitions Chaos is evil. Quote: "the evil effects of a poor diet". Indeed.

 Melissia wrote:
Or, to translate:

"It's okay when Chaos does horrible things because they're Chaos. But how dare the Imperium do them, no matter what the reason!"

Yep. That´s what happen when you use Google Translator.

 Psienesis wrote:

Blow it up with a bomb? No. Not permanently, anyway. Khorne's power is not diminished. If you had a super-massive bomb, you might destroy it for a few minutes, maybe even a few days (but what is a minute, a day, a million years in a dimension where time does not exist?).

I am unable to visualize this. It is like that episode in South Park when terrorists invaded Imaginationland.

And for the thousand souls a day fed to the Emperor? They were weak. They could never serve the God-Emperor in life, let them do so in their deaths. Men must die so that Man can endure.

Isn´t this a Chaos thing too? "The weak die for the rest to prosper". These are psykers, at least in theory far more powerful than the average human.

Is violence in itself a bad thing?

Yes.

Even if it is used against evil? Even if it is used when no other solution can be found?

Imagine a non-sentient thing made of evil. Would it be evil? Wow, this is getting weird. My answer is still NO. If it has no free will, it cannot be evil. To do evil you have to voluntarily do it. An act (any act) does not make you evil if you are forced to do it, tricked to do it, or created to do it.

Is it the act that makes it evil, or the intent behind the act?

I think people should also make a distinction between being evil and being blameworthy. Perhaps you could be willing to concede that Chaos entities have no choice in the matter when it comes to committing evil deeds and so they couldn't be blamed for their actions, they however are certainly evil.

Also it's quite explicit that the Ruinous Powers are sentient beings, specifically coalesced emotions that grew so large they attained sentience. Of course you could still be sentient and forced to act in certain ways but that does not really matter in this case.

Lastly from a narrative or literary perspective, I think it's clear that Chaos is supposed to be evil. I don't think 40k gets particularly nuanced in this area and so it's not hard to guess the intent of the creators here. In so many stories, characterizations, and descriptions of Chaos it's described evil to the extreme. Just look at things like "Kill! Maim! Burn!" or as mentioned "Let no good deed go unpunished; Let no evil deed go unrewarded." I don't think its a stretch to say the intent is to flavour chaos as evil.

 Melissia wrote:

The Imperium is evil.

But it's a sympathetic evil. An evil driven by necessity. They are paranoid not for the sake of it, but because they HAVE to be. Chaos really does want to tear the Imperium down and bathe its worlds in blood, murdering everyone. The Imperium, for all of its evil, is not exaggerating at all when it describes the evils of Chaos.

Chaos? They'll kill you if you worship the wrong god. Or if their god is feeling fickle. Or if the day is wednesday and you're wearing a blue coat

"To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable".
You are imagining incredibly cruel worlds under the rule of Chaos. According to the background, the Imperium is worse.

And I don´t think the Imperium is evil. I think both the Imperium and Chaos are at the same level. They have reasons to do what they do. All factions in the setting have their reasons.

Also, Chaos does not want to go to war with the Imperium. The Horus Heresy or the 13th crusade are exceptions. And the first one was a counter-strike. The Chaos gods do not care about the Imperium. They are quite busy fighting each other.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Really, we've had enough fluff and narrative from a Chaos protagonist perspective and an Imperial protagonist perspective to make it pretty obvious which faction has the majority of individuals that at least have some semblance of a conscience, even if one that's still far removed from real life morality. Narratives that are actually done in first person perspective sometime and show the train of thought of the individuals involved, again for both Chaos and Imperial individuals.

No, we haven´t. Unless you are counting the Chaos Space Marines, we have very little "first person perspective" from chaos followers. And in these rare cases they are depicted as humans. They build cities, they create civilizations that last thousand of years. They are not "lol death murder bwahaha DIE DIE DIE" unless they are at war. Perhaps you are talking about CSM or Champions of Chaos.

 asimo77 wrote:
I think people should also make a distinction between being evil and being blameworthy. Perhaps you could be willing to concede that Chaos entities have no choice in the matter when it comes to committing evil deeds and so they couldn't be blamed for their actions, they however are certainly evil.

Also it's quite explicit that the Ruinous Powers are sentient beings, specifically coalesced emotions that grew so large they attained sentience. Of course you could still be sentient and forced to act in certain ways but that does not really matter in this case.

Lastly from a narrative or literary perspective, I think it's clear that Chaos is supposed to be evil. I don't think 40k gets particularly nuanced in this area and so it's not hard to guess the intent of the creators here. In so many stories, characterizations, and descriptions of Chaos it's described evil to the extreme. Just look at things like "Kill! Maim! Burn!" or as mentioned "Let no good deed go unpunished; Let no evil deed go unrewarded." I don't think its a stretch to say the intent is to flavour chaos as evil.

Not sure. I don´t think there is such thing as an "evil act", if it is lacking intent. If a person tries to help someone and ends hurting him, he is not evil. If he gets possesed and is forced to do something, he is not evil. The blame is on the one possessing him. And why it doesn´t matter to be forced to act in a certain way in this case?

From a literary perspective, you are absolutely right. Chaos is presented as evil. But then again, we see the story from the point of view of the Imperium. Imagine you are a mutant living in a planet that is in the path of a Black Templar crusade. I think we have enough information to say that this is not a "good vs evil" (or an "evil" vs "more evil") setting.

Intent only changes the outcome of the act. Not the act itself. the act itself is still negative despite the intention. BUT the intention will determine the consiquence.

Accidentally killing someone is still an evil act but can be more easily forgiven, however will hurt the person who did the act moreso. So although they have done an act which has the same result as someone intentionally killing someone they will suffer lighter consequences and remorse and guilt will settle in on the wrongdoer.

Intentionally killing someone leaves no room for forgiveness (as a gerneral rule depending on the situation of course) and results in harsh punishment.

In short intention doesnt effect the act but effects the consiquences of the act. So what Chaos does is still evil and there would be room for forgiveness BUT...

Failing to learn from the consequences of acts, and continually repeating them on massed scale leaves little or no room for forgiveness. I cant keep accidentally nuking cities and expect to be forgiven or excused each time. Same goes for Chaos. Intentions fail to matter eventually.

Chaos, by the standards of most normal people in this world today, when described in depth, would be considered evil as their practices are not only extreme, but excessive and repeated.

The intent. Without intent there is no evil.

My *intent* is to create a land that is safe for my family, my friends, my children, and my children's children. To keep them safe from those who would cause them harm, physically, emotionally, financially or morally.

I just had to gas 13 million people to death to do it.

If that mindset is not "evil", then the Imperium, likewise, cannot be held as "evil" by any stretch, because it is the *intent* of the Imperium to build a brighter, safer future for humanity.

However, there are many part of humanity that do not, or can not, share in that dream. These elements must, for the good of humanity, be purged.

You are imagining incredibly cruel worlds under the rule of Chaos.

You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

 Swastakowey wrote:
Intent only changes the outcome of the act. Not the act itself. the act itself is still negative despite the intention.

I completely respect your opinion, but we are moving in circles. I don´t think an act made by a non-sentient being, an enslaved creature or a thing lacking free will can be considered evil. If Khorne is Violence, I don´t think it is evil in itself.
Let´s agree that we have a disagreement.

 Psienesis wrote:

The intent. Without intent there is no evil.

My *intent* is to create a land that is safe for my family, my friends, my children, and my children's children. To keep them safe from those who would cause them harm, physically, emotionally, financially or morally.

I just had to gas 13 million people to death to do it.

If that mindset is not "evil", then the Imperium, likewise, cannot be held as "evil" by any stretch, because it is the *intent* of the Imperium to build a brighter, safer future for humanity.

However, there are many part of humanity that do not, or can not, share in that dream. These elements must, for the good of humanity, be purged.

Godwin´s Law.

I don´t feel like I won though. Your reasoning is good. What I am saying about Chaos applies to the Imperium too. Both sides mirror each other. My point is: both sides are equally good/evil. However, we usually see Chaos as evil and the Imperium as good, thus my answer to the OP´s question.


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 Melissia wrote:

You are imagining incredibly cruel worlds under the rule of Chaos.

You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

I must admit I don´t know what to do with some of your one-line posts. I feel like an imperial guardsman fighting an Eldar.

This is my first answer:
Alternative answer:
Additional alternative answer:

(No offense intended)

I could have said "50 million" and made it a Stalin reference, but those are less well-known.

However, we are talking about a fictional society that can draw parallels, in some areas, to the Reich and other totalitarian states, so I don't think Godwin's Law really applies. True, this is not a discussion of WW2, but it involves elements of comparison to it.

A truly Chaotic society, though, is not... truly Chaotic. It's a society that is, again, a totalitarian state being ruled (probably) by mutant horrors or ten thousand year-old super-soldiers, sorcerer-kings or daemon princes or something along those lines, and might be into some really weird things (let's not forget that Elric, follower of the Chaos God Arioch, was banging his cousin). For a society to embrace Chaos Undivided, it would have to descend into unrestricted anarchy. Though, of course, mortals are not daemons, so they often fail to really grasp what the concepts of Chaos worship really entail.

If intent is an issue here then I think we should all agree Chaos is evil. They quite explicitly intend to do harm and cause suffering. Sure some people fall into Chaos with good intentions, but those embedded in it don't "accidentally" commit atrocities.

Also I think we can safely classify agents, acts, and maybe even events as evil if we so wished.

The Gods: Not sentient, not evil.

The Daemons: Cut off from the gods, can learn and have free will, almost always evil.

The Cultists: Usually evil.

That was easy.

The gods are sentient though, but more importantly I'm not sure you even have to have sentience necessarily to be evil. Also I would characterize and judge daemons in much the same way as the gods.

The gods themselves don't even have free will. They are evil though, that's entirely what created and drives them.

There aren't many good guys in 40k, but there are bad guys. Chaos are the bad guys.

 asimo77 wrote:
The gods are sentient though, but more importantly I'm not sure you even have to have sentience necessarily to be evil. Also I would characterize and judge daemons in much the same way as the gods.

Of course you need sentience to be evil.

Or do you think hurricanes are evil?


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 DarknessEternal wrote:
They are evil though, that's entirely what created and drives them.

That is not true.

The chaos gods are tyrants, this is clearly demonstrated by their actions. There is a segment in the new codex that goes like this

IN a single generation the heretically progressive world of Thruscas Sine eradicates all natural illness from its populace. Nurgle is offended and infests the world from pole to pole; Nurgleings, Plaguebearers, Rot Files and finally jovial Great Unclean Ones materialise

This is the action of a tyrant, to condemn a whole word to death for nothing more the curing all natural illness from its populace. Nowhere does it state that its “In Nurgle’s nature” to act this way, this was a choice that Nurgle chose, he decided to act this way and horribly murder a entire planet. This is the action of a tyrant.

The chaos gods are also undeniable cruel and enjoy tormenting mortal races, once again there is a passage in the new codex that reads.

During a incursion on the hiveworld of Paraghast the power of chaos transforms the principle city of Patrihive into a nightmare. It becomes a twisted prison to billions of souls trapped within a sentient hive thing, whose roots burrow into the surrounding ash wastes for a hundred miles in every direction……

Also you said that gods were raw emotion, and that Khorne was violence and anger, well this indicated otherwise

The thousand year war of Midian finally ends with Pax Veritas. That night every celebrating solder is suddenly decapitated by an invisible blade

Firstly violence and anger doesn’t lead to that. Secondly what an evil vile act, these solders have spent their lives fighting, finally know peace and get killed by a jealous, childish, petulant tyrant. This is a condemning, disgusting act of evil.

The Chaos gods are evil, those quotes aren't imperial propaganda, they come straight out of the demon codex. GW clearly wants chaos to be evil and portrays it as such in the fluff, saying differently is trying to tell GW that you somehow know the stuff they wrote better than they do.



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 Runicmadhamster wrote:

I am sorry but that is such a cop out, the chaos gods are raw emotions therefore they are a force of nature and cannot be neither good nor evil? Thats false middle ground, and also speculation as we (as humans) have never encountered such beings and so cannot make any strong assertive or certain statements on what such beings would be like or capable of.

Quite the contrary, we have encountered such beings since the beginning. Every single human society has developed a sense of spiritualism, and has reached the conclusion that something must be out there. The God of War, the Plague God, and the God of Excess have walked at the side of mankind since we got a soul and started dreaming. They just keep changing their names.

Thousands of books have been written on the issue. Is Ares evil? Is violence in itself a bad thing?

We have not encountered beings of raw emotion, cite me one source, one good source that has people interacting with beings of raw emotion.

The chaos gods cannot enter a physical world. Anger and Violence (aka Khorne) is unable to do that.
The gods send daemons to feed on human emotions. These daemons are predators, like tyranids if you want.

They send demons out in the real space to commit acts or brutality and evil. Demons are nothing like nids.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
The chaos gods have limited free will, this is what the fluff in the WH40k demon codex is making out is the case.

Good. Does this mean that they have "limited evilness"? Then we have an agreement. To answer the OP: "Chaos is not as evil as you thought?" If Chaos is the Chaos gods, no. They are not 100% evil because they have limited free will. Even if they can make choices, they cannot make the kind of choices that would turn them into "good" entities.

Sounds fine to me.

No they use what free will they have to commit acts of evil, they had a choice to do good or do evil and they picked evil, GW has made this very clear

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 asimo77 wrote:
The gods are sentient though, but more importantly I'm not sure you even have to have sentience necessarily to be evil. Also I would characterize and judge daemons in much the same way as the gods.

Of course you need sentience to be evil.

Or do you think hurricanes are evil?


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Honestly I don't think that's such a big bullet to bite so to speak. If this is the kind of thing I would have to allow for, I don't see it as much of an issue, I'd accept it even if just for the sake of consistency.

 Psienesis wrote:

A truly Chaotic society, though, is not... truly Chaotic. It's a society that is, again, a totalitarian state being ruled (probably) by mutant horrors or ten thousand year-old super-soldiers, sorcerer-kings or daemon princes or something along those lines, and might be into some really weird things (let's not forget that Elric, follower of the Chaos God Arioch, was banging his cousin). For a society to embrace Chaos Undivided, it would have to descend into unrestricted anarchy. Though, of course, mortals are not daemons, so they often fail to really grasp what the concepts of Chaos worship really entail.

Fair enough. Moorcock is always my reference.
The world of Elric is a good example of what I think is a Chaos world. Lots of people there. Civilizations. A cruel and harsh world. But it is not as "evil" as most players think. It is a better place to live than the average hive world, which are described as living under "the cruelest regime".

However, the closer you get to Chaos in this world, the worse things go. "Good" is located in a middle point between the Imperium and Chaos.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

We have not encountered beings of raw emotion, cite me one source, one good source that has people interacting with beings of raw emotion.

Only one? OK. I already talked about Ares, so I am picking The Judgement of Paris.

Written about 3200 years ago, it narrates the origin of the fight between the Greeks and the city of Troy. It was so successful a sequel was made, the Iliad. There is a spin-off called “The Odyssey”.

It goes like this: Strife, an entity made of raw emotion, who is the twin sister of Ares (Anger, the Blood God), is upset because she is the only being made of raw emotion not invited to a wedding. Being the ultimate troll, Strife arrives at the celebration with an apple with the inscription “for the fairest one”. Soon, an argument starts about which goddess deserves it the most: Hera (Marriage and Birth), Athena (Wisdom and Courage) or Aphrodite (Love and Pleasure, the whimsical goddess of sexuality). To make it short, they ask a human cultist named Paris, a Champion of the Gods who was the prince of Troy. He was famous because he had defeated a bull-shaped daemon of Khorne (thus gaining his respect, at least according to the local sorcerers). Slaanesh talks to him before the Judgement and promises him lots of sex with whoever he wishes, she wins the contest and the other two goddesses get mad.

And thus the war started. The goddesses got their cultists ready and we see lots of human cultist fighting. That´s the Iliad. As you can imagine, the Iliad is centered in the Champions of the Gods, and can be described as bolter porn without bolters, with any champion being unstoppable until meeting another Champion. There is also some god vs god action.

 asimo77 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Of course you need sentience to be evil.

Or do you think hurricanes are evil?
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Honestly I don't think that's such a big bullet to bite so to speak. If this is the kind of thing I would have to allow for, I don't see it as much of an issue, I'd accept it even if just for the sake of consistency.

I don´t think Void__Dragon wants you to bite that bullet. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think he is saying that hurricanes are NOT evil. He is comparing Chaos to a force of nature, a reasoning that has already been used in this thread.

Hurricanes are not evil because they lack sentience (or free will). The same reasoning applies to the Chaos gods. Violence (Khorne) cannot be evil in itself, because it cannot help doing violence.

The thing is, the chaos gods CAN help doing what they do. On more than one fluff occasion it's been mentioned that the chaos gods held back or whatever else for their own reasons. They're more than capable of making alliances, agreements, acting unpredictably, talking, negotiating, etc etc. The fluff has made it clear that despite their natures, they have free will just like every sentient being.

They're just huge donkey-caves about it.

 da001 wrote:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

We have not encountered beings of raw emotion, cite me one source, one good source that has people interacting with beings of raw emotion.

Only one? OK. I already talked about Ares, so I am picking The Judgement of Paris.

Written about 3200 years ago, it narrates the origin of the fight between the Greeks and the city of Troy. It was so successful a sequel was made, the Iliad. There is a spin-off called “The Odyssey”.

It goes like this: Strife, an entity made of raw emotion, who is the twin sister of Ares (Anger, the Blood God), is upset because she is the only being made of raw emotion not invited to a wedding. Being the ultimate troll, Strife arrives at the celebration with an apple with the inscription “for the fairest one”. Soon, an argument starts about which goddess deserves it the most: Hera (Marriage and Birth), Athena (Wisdom and Courage) or Aphrodite (Love and Pleasure, the whimsical goddess of sexuality). To make it short, they ask a human cultist named Paris, a Champion of the Gods who was the prince of Troy. He was famous because he had defeated a bull-shaped daemon of Khorne (thus gaining his respect, at least according to the local sorcerers). Slaanesh talks to him before the Judgement and promises him lots of sex with whoever he wishes, she wins the contest and the other two goddesses get mad.

And thus the war started. The goddesses got their cultists ready and we see lots of human cultist fighting. That´s the Iliad. As you can imagine, the Iliad is centered in the Champions of the Gods, and can be described as bolter porn without bolters, with any champion being unstoppable until meeting another Champion. There is also some god vs god action.

You do know i dont think gods exist right? You just cited me a legend, something that didn't happen in order to support your case. Yes it make a nice story but as factual evidence is falls short because 1) We have no way of verifying what was reported in it and 2) It is widely acknowledged that the story of troy is a myth/ legend. Yes there was a city called troy and it was invaded and destroyed but it had nothing to do with a non existent pantheon of greek gods. Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Khorne, unlike the hurricane, does not lack sentience. He/It is, in fact, extremely sentient, present (in some small way) at every act of warfare, violence, carnage and slaughter in the galaxy, when and where ever it happens.

He feeds from this as he drives mortal beings to do these things, even as he feeds these actions and is created by these actions. While a Chaos God can be said to have a moment of creation, a moment when it gained sentience, once that moment comes, it is as if that Chaos God has *always* existed. Even though Slaanesh did not exist until M30, Slaanesh is the source of all vice and perversion in the galaxy throughout history. Always has been, always will be. Time does not abide in the Warp, and is turned onto itself. Past, present and future are meaningless concepts in the Warp, it is all the "now".

What lies between the Imperium and Chaos, between Order and Chaos, is not "good". It's not "evil" either, because Order and Chaos do not have anything to do with what is good or what is evil, they can be one, the other or both, all at the same time.

However, in 40K, the Imperium is *definitely* the choice of the lesser of two evils. Chaos is Extremely Evil. The Imperium is just Really Evil.

The other factions fall somewhere along the Order/Disorder axis, but none of them really touch on the Good/Evil axis, as this is 40K and that doesn't exist on a factional scale. All of the factions of 40K are Evil to some degree. The Tau might be argued to be good, and some Tau are, but their background strongly implies something dark going on behind the scenes.

 Psienesis wrote:

The other factions fall somewhere along the Order/Disorder axis, but none of them really touch on the Good/Evil axis, as this is 40K and that doesn't exist on a factional scale. All of the factions of 40K are Evil to some degree. The Tau might be argued to be good, and some Tau are, but their background strongly implies something dark going on behind the scenes.

Games Workshop Digital Editions facebook page referred to them as "the less belligerent alien races" when previewing who you could ally your Inquisitors with.

I like the "politically correct" sound of "less-belligerent aliens".

Chaos is sufficiently evil, just too stupid to successfully leverage that evil into results.


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 Runicmadhamster wrote:
Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Women on their periods?

/ducks

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

You do know i dont think gods exist right? You just cited me a legend, something that didn't happen in order to support your case. Yes it make a nice story but as factual evidence is falls short because 1) We have no way of verifying what was reported in it and 2) It is widely acknowledged that the story of troy is a myth/ legend. Yes there was a city called troy and it was invaded and destroyed but it had nothing to do with a non existent pantheon of greek gods. Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Perhaps. Or has it? Countless tales and legends, religions that founded and destroyed civilizations... Are you sure we haven´t met the gods?

However, you do not need to believe in the gods. Neither do I, actually. But humanity as a whole has been obsessed with them since the beginning. Also think about what the gods are: Strife, Violence, Lust... The source of our disagreement is that you see the gods of chaos as monsters, tyrants, physical beings... They are gods.

And in the w40k setting, the gods are real. A man (is/was he a man?) launched a crusade to destroy them, through the use of reason, and he hurt them. And they reacted and fought together against this threat. Aphrodite, Ares, Apollo, Hermes and the rest.... they were really pissed off. Also, keep in mind that what we know of the setting is a mix of lies, propaganda and legends. Of course there are gods. All legends have gods.

Now imagine a being like Strife actually exists. Is she evil? She does all sorts of evil things. Some people would say that she is evil. Other people would say that, well, she is Strife. Of course she does these things. It is a creature made of discord, she cannot help trolling everyone.

 Psienesis wrote:

However, in 40K, the Imperium is *definitely* the choice of the lesser of two evils. Chaos is Extremely Evil. The Imperium is just Really Evil.

What about the line "To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable"?

For me, Chaos and the Imperium are exactly at the same level. After all, they are the Chaos/Law Moorcock-equivalent. And I see both of them as neutral forces, engaged in an endless war where humans are pawns.

 Omegus wrote:
Chaos is sufficiently evil, just too stupid to successfully leverage that evil into results.

Whoaaaa nelly. Yeah, Chaos is evil, but stupid is not one I'd cop to. I also hold Chaos as being less evil then it's painted as (though that's not really hard).
I can imagine where the idea comes from though. I mean, Abaddon is on his 13th Black Crusade, sounds like a losing streak and must mean he's dumb right?
Answer: Ehhhh.

See, Abaddon is a driving force to unite the various factions of Chaos into an army. But given that many of his Marines (and all of the Daemons) at his disposal have a patron God who in turn has 3 rivals in the same army... It's not a question of competence, it's a question of "Which sub-faction is going to slip the leash first, disobey a direct order because they got a better offer from their deity or just felt the Warp overtaking them and decided it was a good pain?" If each of Creed's generals had sworn an entirely separate alliance with a god level power that could instantly reward them for ditching Cadia and going to the nearest paradise planet for cocktails, Cadia would have fallen within a week.

Each Chaos god is also precariously balanced, a marked loss of power could bring their whole "house of cards" crashing down. Even though Slaanesh is the weakest, he's still a major powerhouse in the Warp, and could destroy any of the other Big 3 given a sufficient opening. Heck, when they withdrew their support from Horus, if it wasn't simultaneous it might as well have been.

Chaos isn't stupid. it's just fractured, borderline juvenile, and CHAOTIC. They make new daemon engines on a regular basis, fresh new virus bombs like they're elves in Santa's workshop the day before Christmas, and strip whole worlds or even SM chapters of useful gear. The Alpha Legion has been declared eliminated THREE times by the High Lords of Terra, only for a sealed scroll case to be handed to the Lords, containing a picture of an Alpha Legionnaire flipping them the bird, captioned "Better luck next time" and date stamped earlier that afternoon.

Here is one very important thing to consider about the Chaos Gods that I feel is being overlooked, which I think will shed a lot of light on this sentient v. semi-sentient what-not.

Nurgle is not just the fat-body sitting on a rotting throne after a hard days work at the Manse. Nurgle is also the Manse, the Garden and all of his daemons. Same with all the others.

So if we consider these aspects of the Chaos gods as well, then the evil argument is even harder to ascertain. Can landscapes be "evil?"

The Garden, the Manse, all of that, is simply Warp-stuff shaped into a form pleasing to Nurgle, the same as any Plague Bearer, Nurgling or Great Unclean One. All of these things are sentient so, yes, very capable of evil... and Nurgle just wants to turn the galaxy into a pit of foulness and corruption.

Nurgle says a human's life is worth less than a bacterium's. He would gladly kill all of humanity if it meant that their bodies would spawn more bacteria-- if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

Khorne says a human life is worthless unless it is shedding blood. He would gladly watch all humans bleed to death and have his servants pile their skulls up upon his throne, if only he was able to accomplish this. He's certainly trying.

Slaanesh says a human life is worthless unless it is used in excess. S/he would gladly torture all humans until they die horrible, suffering, screaming, hideously painful deaths, if only s/he was capable of it. S/he's certainly trying.

Tzeentch says a human life is worthless unless it is plotting and scheming. He would gladly set humanity against itself, to turn betrayal in to the most common virtue until humanity was wiped out, if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Here is one very important thing to consider about the Chaos Gods that I feel is being overlooked, which I think will shed a lot of light on this sentient v. semi-sentient what-not.

Nurgle is not just the fat-body sitting on a rotting throne after a hard days work at the Manse. Nurgle is also the Manse, the Garden and all of his daemons. Same with all the others.

So if we consider these aspects of the Chaos gods as well, then the evil argument is even harder to ascertain. Can landscapes be "evil?"

Landscapes can be evil if they're sentient. Which the Garden of Nurgle arguably is. That thing DEVOURS anyone who enters unless Nurgle wills them to go through.

As an aside, at least according to the wiki (though I could have sworn I saw it myself in an official source. I just can't remember which one), Nurgle's capable of making his garden NOT infect visitors with diseases if they're invited or welcome, despite how giving diseases is "his nature". So again, another example of how the Chaos gods are sentient and DO have free will, even in regards to their landscapes. In this case, Nurgle is in fact fully capable of ordering his garden to NOT infect you with a disease regardless of what he is. Hell, the fact that he does it for visitors who are welcome or invited shows that he also knows that infecting people with diseases can be bad. Yet he does so anyways to most people.

 da001 wrote:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

You do know i dont think gods exist right? You just cited me a legend, something that didn't happen in order to support your case. Yes it make a nice story but as factual evidence is falls short because 1) We have no way of verifying what was reported in it and 2) It is widely acknowledged that the story of troy is a myth/ legend. Yes there was a city called troy and it was invaded and destroyed but it had nothing to do with a non existent pantheon of greek gods. Once again humanity has never encountered any beings of raw emotion

Perhaps. Or has it? Countless tales and legends, religions that founded and destroyed civilizations... Are you sure we haven´t met the gods?

However, you do not need to believe in the gods. Neither do I, actually. But humanity as a whole has been obsessed with them since the beginning. Also think about what the gods are: Strife, Violence, Lust... The source of our disagreement is that you see the gods of chaos as monsters, tyrants, physical beings... They are gods.

And in the w40k setting, the gods are real. A man (is/was he a man?) launched a crusade to destroy them, through the use of reason, and he hurt them. And they reacted and fought together against this threat. Aphrodite, Ares, Apollo, Hermes and the rest.... they were really pissed off. Also, keep in mind that what we know of the setting is a mix of lies, propaganda and legends. Of course there are gods. All legends have gods.

Now imagine a being like Strife actually exists. Is she evil? She does all sorts of evil things. Some people would say that she is evil. Other people would say that, well, she is Strife. Of course she does these things. It is a creature made of discord, she cannot help trolling everyone.

What i am saying is that as we have never met any being like this all we can do is speculate and make assumptions. So saying that say Khorne CANT do this or COULDN'T do that is making a strong assertive statement where you have no grounds to make such a statement. Trust me i spent a year on a US politics and current events debate forum i now well were you can and cannot make strong assertive statements

OK I got a Codex: Chaos Daemons in English and some spare time, so... it is Quote Time!!.

On the nature of the Chaos Gods. Page 6. "The Nature of the Beast" entry.
Quote 1.1: Chaos is made of emotions, dreams and nightmares

Quote 1.2: Chaos is described through metaphors. It cannot be seen, smelled or heard.

Quote 1.3: The formation of the Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods made out of emotions, fantasies, dreams...


On the Realm of Chaos. Page 6 again.
Quote 2.1: No intelligent purpose, no consistence.

Quote 2.2: Warp space and Chaos are exactly the same thing.


Quote 2.3: Chaos Gods are... landscapes. They ARE the Realm of Chaos, or locations inside it.

Quote 2.4: Chaos Gods made of emotions part II.


On “What does the Chaos Gods do?”. From “The Great Game” entry, page 8.
Quote 3.1: What does they do. Goal of the Gods. The paradox: if they ever achieve a total victory, they will die. (That´s what happens when you are able to fight yet lack intelligence).

Quote 3.2: About the Chaos Gods interest on humanity (or lack of).


One by one.
On Khorne. Page 10. "The Blood God" entry.
Quote 4.1:
On Tzeentch. Page 12. The Changer of Ways entry.
Quote 4.2:
On Nurgle. Page 14. Father of Plagues entry.
Quote 4.3:
On Slaanesh. Page 16. The Dark Prince entry.
Quote 4.4:

Ok, enough for now. These would come handy.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
What i am saying is that as we have never met any being like this all we can do is speculate and make assumptions. So saying that say Khorne CANT do this or COULDN'T do that is making a strong assertive statement where you have no grounds to make such a statement. Trust me i spent a year on a US politics and current events debate forum i now well were you can and cannot make strong assertive statements

My grounds are the background GW has published through the years.
Quotes 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.4, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4.
TL,DR:
1) The Chaos Gods are entities made of emotions. And they are landscapes. No intelligence. Rudimentary and unfocused consciousness.
2) All descriptions are metaphors. Dreams, fantasies.... nothing else.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Landscapes can be evil if they're sentient. Which the Garden of Nurgle arguably is. That thing DEVOURS anyone who enters unless Nurgle wills them to go

Wrong. It is a metaphor. The warp cannot be seen, smelt or heard (quote 1.2). An emotion cannot physically devour you. It is a physical act and physics do not apply in the Warp (quote 2.1).

 Melissia wrote:
Nurgle says a human's life is worth less than a bacterium's. He would gladly kill all of humanity if it meant that their bodies would spawn more bacteria-- if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

Khorne says a human life is worthless unless it is shedding blood. He would gladly watch all humans bleed to death and have his servants pile their skulls up upon his throne, if only he was able to accomplish this. He's certainly trying.

Slaanesh says a human life is worthless unless it is used in excess. S/he would gladly torture all humans until they die horrible, suffering, screaming, hideously painful deaths, if only s/he was capable of it. S/he's certainly trying.

Tzeentch says a human life is worthless unless it is plotting and scheming. He would gladly set humanity against itself, to turn betrayal in to the most common virtue until humanity was wiped out, if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

No. They do not care about mortals (see quote 3.2). They will starve if they kill humans. Also, that would not explain why the people on daemonwordls are still alive (and many times in better condition that imperials). The Chaos Gods are emotional parasites. They need humanity (or sentient beings)

Also, Nurgle is a god of life and laughter, he is not trying to kill anyone. Quite the contrary. See Quote 4.3.

(One little thing here: in mythology and anthropology the bringer of change is usually Death. Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other. They are Life and Death (or Pestilence and Death, if you want to go that way). No quote here, this is just an opinion.)

 Melissia wrote:
You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

I doubt you have ever read a single page of the background of a Chaos Codex. The first page is number six and it addresses most of your reasonings. You keep posting Imperial propaganda. Get a Codex of a different faction and you will get a different perspective from a different point of view. That´s what makes this setting so interesting. For me, at least.






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For instance, I have a copy of most GW has published about the Sisters of Battle. The Liber Sororitas (white dwarf 293), the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force from the Citadel Journal 49, the Codex: Witch Hunters...

It gives me a completely different perspective and I enjoy it a lot.

Edit: here is another quote, about the differences between Chaos Daemons and Chaos Gods:
Codex: Chaos Daemons. Page 7, Chaos Daemons entry:


So the differences are:
1) Daemons have senses (Chaos Gods do not, page 6).
2) Daemons have thoughts and purposes (Chaos Gods lack the first, page 6; they have a single purpose: domination).
3) Daemons have personality (I think page 6 implies Chaos Gods do not, though it is arguable).
4) Daemons have consciousness (Chaos Gods have a rudimentary consciousness, page 6).
5) Daemons can move within the Warp (Chaos Gods are trapped in certain locations or, to put it better, they ARE the positions themselves, page 6).
6) Daemons are not so closely bound to the Warp (Chaos Gods cannot scape the Warp, they ARE the Warp, page 6).