Since the latest Space Marine codex were published I've been very puzzled about the Chapter Tactics rules. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that the rules themselves were introduced as there should be clear differences between Chapters and it's great that also Forgeworld has made rules for their Chapters. I just can't understand why these don't cost any points.
I'm a Chaos Daemon and Chaos Space Marine player, and I've always thought that Tactical Space Marines were more point-effective than Chaos Space Marines, also before their 6th edition codices and now Tactical Space Marines get even more for their points and it's not that players have talked about how point-ineffective Tactical Space Marines have been for ages, so why did they get these rules without getting more expensive?
As you can see I'm leaning towards that Chaos Space Marines are probably priced right compared to all other armies and that's Tactical Space Marines which are too cheap, but it could be that it's Chaos Space Marines which are too expensive.
Chapter Tactics together with a weak and boring Chaos Space Marines codex have made me shelf my Chaos Space Marines armies except the Death Guard but it would be nice to hear constructive arguments either that I'm right in my conclusion or actually even better: if you can persuade me to think that I have overreacted.
My own rough estimates is that Tactical Space Marines should cost 16 points each. My estimate is based on a comparison with Chaos Space Marines:
Chaos Space Marines can have 5-20 models = Tactical Space Marines have the options of Drop Pods and Razorbacks besides the Rhino
Chaos Space Marines can have 2 Special weapons = Tactical Marines have Combat squads
That they're never getting swept in close combat, never completely breaks, are immune to fear, moves 9" after regrouping (they get their complete turn as opposed to all other armies) and have Chapter Tactics is definitely worth more than 1 point in my opinion.
Because they replaced the old combat tactics rule space marines used to have. It was a standard feature that was worked into the cost of the models before, and now it doesn't exist, as it was replaced by chapter tactics.
Mainly because SM are GW's baby child and main cash cow for 40K so they'll obviously get a one-up on chaos or hell almost any previous marine variant codex before them. They will always get some variation of the "new" thing of the current edition like in 5th ed. with the whole focus on special characters providing the flavour changes in the previous addition via "counts as" as well as the intro to the ubiquitous 3+ invuln. saves in the game with their changes to storm shields and their easily accessible nature in marine armies via terminators or otherwise. This really has only been exacerbated with the addition of the almost auto-take Shield Eternal relic.
It's a pity that CSM had to come out as the first book of the edition as now they miss out on the ship of having legit flavour in representing certain combat styles that could have just as easily been introduced in the CSM codex. Their supplement(s) so far haven't done anything to alleviate this shortfall either.
You are leaning the wrong way. SM are price about right. They are a pretty well written codex with a large number of viable options (ironically if the helldrake didn't exist they would have a lot more options than they do).
The CSM codex is somewhat boring and is very poorly balanced both internally and externally. CSM are overpriced (their icons should have been reduced in price and they really should have been given "chapter tactics"). Honestly though you could always run your CSM using the SM codex as power armour is power armour and most of the units translate just fine. In fact Iron Hands CT would make a pretty great Death Guard army and Imperial Fists would work great for Iron Warriors. Khorne would work well with the Carcharodons rules from Forgeworld. The only negative is the BB allies matrix won't let you take daemons.
Because waging the long war makes you really bad at being clever?
But seriously, GW's pricing methodology seems to take the position that if you have more options, your base price needs to go up to reflect 'flexibility' or something like that. A lot of the really cost-efficient units have relatively limited options compared to the sheer variety of choices available to a Chaos marine. The fact that most of those picks are not worthwhile on the face of the direct upgrade cost doesn't seem pertinent. While there is something to be said for making a unit cost less due to lack of options, the cost for flexibility should be in the option itself, not baked into the baseline price.
Lord Gatlas wrote: Because they replaced the old combat tactics rule space marines used to have. It was a standard feature that was worked into the cost of the models before, and now it doesn't exist, as it was replaced by chapter tactics.
Well I don't think that the old Combat Tactics were worth very much, at least not as much as Chapter Tactics, or as much as And They Shall Know No Fear for that matter. It doesn't change my opinion about Tactical Space Marines being too cheap back in 5th edition and also now in 6th edition.
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GreyHamster wrote: Because waging the long war makes you really bad at being clever?
But seriously, GW's pricing methodology seems to take the position that if you have more options, your base price needs to go up to reflect 'flexibility' or something like that. A lot of the really cost-efficient units have relatively limited options compared to the sheer variety of choices available to a Chaos marine. The fact that most of those picks are not worthwhile on the face of the direct upgrade cost doesn't seem pertinent. While there is something to be said for making a unit cost less due to lack of options, the cost for flexibility should be in the option itself, not baked into the baseline price.
Yes it could very much look like that even though you can only use your flexibility to a certain point. Defilers are probably that expensive because they have a lot of shooting and close combat possibilities. The only problem is that you can't use both if you're in close combat or if you make use of the long range of the Battle Cannon. So maybe internal balance doesn't even cover this area!? What term could be used for a single unit which is not balanced within itself?
And back to the topic. I'm still open for arguments that we're all wrong here!
Furyou Miko wrote: Tacticals are way too cheap. So are Chaos Marines though. One point difference for +1 WS, S, T and I? Let alone 2 points for all that, AND ATSKNF...
Hmmm? Which units are you talking about? Their numbers are identical. It's their rules and options which differ.
Anyone who thinks that Tacticals are too cheap in today's meta probably needs to think about what pseudo-rending Shuriken weapons, Heldrakes, grav-weapons and Riptides do to 3+ armour.
She is talking about SoB (AS now). Which are likely pointed as they are for the access to flamer+HF at 5 model units, the 6++, and the AoF.
Honestly first think about how many SM lists with max TAC squads are winning big at GTs? Now if these were under priced they should be the big go to unit like Grey Hunters, Nightscythe-Warriors, Eldar Jetbikes, or Oblits. If they were OP undercosted they would have a thread per week complaining about them like; Vendetta, Helldrake, Waveserpent, and Riptide. Notice that they are in neither category and so they must be in one of the categories; Just Right, Overpriced, or Garbage. CSM are Overpriced, Rough Riders are Garbage, and SM are somewhere near Just Right.
I am still not convince of where SoB are at. Their access to support elements and special/heavy weapons makes it tough to judge.
CSM are clearly over priced as no one takes them if they can avoid it. They are almost universally replaced with cult troops or cultists.
The original rules before the FAQ was under priced but not ridiculously so. After the FAQ it became truly broken. It went from getting 1 good shooting phases per 2 turns they were on the table to getting a productive shooting phase every single turn. Just like the riptide only becomes broken with the addition of markerlights or a buff commander + IC riptide.
Actually, SMtac marines are still probably overcosted for 6th edition rules. I realize this makes CSM very, very overcosted, but most of the marine pricing from 3rd edition on has been about the 3+ armor. Now that 3+ armor is garbage because of the weight of fire of Xeno lists.
Both CSM and loyalists are really suffering from paying for "flexibility". Too bad the flexibility doesn't do a thing when on the wrong end of a scatter laser. Don't feel too bad CSM, ATSKNF doesn't do a thing when you're dead.
BlaxicanX wrote: The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.
C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.
And C: DA has "stubborn + drawback" , so CSM aren't the only ones head scratching at C:SM's clearly superior army wide (minus vehicles {unless Iron Hands}) special rules.
Martel732 wrote: It's GW's way of admitting they screwed the DA and CSM.
Actually the only real issue with the DA codex is a complete and utter lack of AA to kill hellturkeys. Why do they not get stormravens again? Honestly bikers in PA are fine if they just had something to kill hellturkeys. Guess that is what allies are for.
CSM really only need price adjustments on their wargear/marks/icons and they would have been okay. The problem with their units is not that you cannot get enough bodies for the points but rather that they have terrible DPP and have morale issues...both which would have been fixed with cheaper wargear/marks/icons.
Ironically the worst offender at making PA models suffer is the helldrake and it single handedly invalidates many builds in it's own codex as CSM lack effective AA much like DA. This is why forgeworld is awesome; they give reliable AA to the armies which lack it. (I am not trying to get into a debate so sorry if I spark one)
Chaos Space marines. 75 points for a squad of 5 with each marine costing 13 pts a model.
they get a free aspiring champion with 2 attacks and leadership 9.*the HQ also has to accept challanges and can get buffs for winning challanges)
let's compare this to vanilla marines. 70 points for a 5 man squad. their sergent which they get for free is only leadership 8 with 1 attack each marine costs 14 points a model.
the long and hard of it is that vanilla marines are better costed true. but chaos marines are better in a melee scrap (even without spending the 2 points a model for CCWs) and are better lead. yes Marines have ATSKNF, but their leadership is weaker.
generally I think that chaos marines are slightly over pointed vs vanilla, but they're competitive eneugh
Martel732 wrote: It's GW's way of admitting they screwed the DA and CSM.
Actually the only real issue with the DA codex is a complete and utter lack of AA to kill hellturkeys. Why do they not get stormravens again? Honestly bikers in PA are fine if they just had something to kill hellturkeys. Guess that is what allies are for.
The problem is that the marine stat line and weapon load outs are very competitive in general, and the CSM have to pay more than vanilla marines. I don't consider ATSKNF to be a huge loss, because I've been having trouble being killed, not running away.
That kind of won't fly , because there are more people who can't afford the top tier FW stuff , then those that can and because non of the stores here sell FW , the stores who are the main tournament orgs here aren't interested in people buying FW stuff from UK , then normal GW stuff from the stores. Wish there was an option to buy FW stuff at the GW store in Warsaw , but there is no such option . Or rather there is , you can go to the GW with your own credit card and they will help you type the order in . I guess it is an option for those people who have credit cards , but somehow don't have interent access at home or work .
The DA seem to work just fine . We have a player here who runs a triple LR crusader list with dakka banner and power field generator and if the gaming space allows it a landing pad , he throws 100+shots per turn that kill demons and tau. Eldar can kill him , but have to get real close and realy kill 3 LR in a single turn or the stuff that got out is dead as dead can be.
Just to make sure; you have seen the FAQ for the PFG right? It has to be outside the vehicle to effect the vehicle or any units nearby.
The real problem is that DA landraider build is a nich build that falls apart the second your opponent happens to bring a stormraven, long strike, or necron gauss. There is also the problem that an opponent playing seprent spam or nightscythe spam doesn't have anything to fear from you. May the emperor help you if the opponent plays wraithguard in serpent spam or brought 2 fire dragons in serpents.
Tau should also have not trouble handling this as 2 riptides can just walk up and punch them to death with little to no fear of being seriously hurt.
Daemons can also dismantle him but they need to bring stuff which has become less popular in the internet lists or any MC that can survive massed bolter fire...like a GUO.
BlaxicanX wrote: The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.
C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.
Pretty much this. C:SM tacticals are in fact pretty crappy, even with Chapter Tactics. It's just that point for point, CSM are slightly worse (though with some potential advantages, too).
As for DAAA that seems to be a semi-hot side-topic? They still have flak missiles. The DA fliers aren't that great at AA, so yeah, C:SM has the advantage there, but it's not like DA can't get AA. Try the Sisters out if you want actual lack of AA (And yes, SW don't have any either, but SoB already got their update, SW haven't).
I'm not complaining, so much as pointing out that GW should put in viable solutions for all lists in the base books. Many tournaments and play environments are FW free. That means advice revolving around FW is not universally useful.
Meh, the DA had the first Chapter Tactic. Their's isn't much worse than the Iron Hands one. A lot more situational. (Definitely not as powerful as the Salamanders or White Scars one.)
Stubborn + Characters and DW have Fearless and PE (CSM). Their Ravenwing have all the buffs of White Scars built in, but cost more (as well as a teleport homer on each bike). They cost more, of course. They also suffer from being a codex that focuses on a single chapter, as only Azrael / Belial / Sammael affect the FOO.
However, without special characters, Dark Angels get access to better wargear options on their termies and Divination. All of their basic troops cost the same as Space Marines (such as their veterans costing the same as Sternguard)
It's interesting though that you think that also Tactical Space Marines are over-costed, because when compared to for example Troops choices like Dire Avengers and Guardians they don't seem to need a point reduction. I would still argue that at the moment there should be 3 points in difference between a Chaos Space Marine and a Tactical Space Marine, so probably 12 and 15 points for them. If Chaos Space marines got Chapter Tactics rules too then 13 points would seem fine again I think, making And They Shall Know No Fear worth 2 points, which I think is perfect.
Dire Avengers have a lot of advantages Space Marines don't that are useful. Space marines have a lot of advantages that don't mean anything any more. Frag grenades, HTH stats, and ATSKNF. I list ATSKNF because of 6th edition casualty rates. You don't worry about rallying because your're dead.
Martel732 wrote: Dire Avengers have a lot of advantages Space Marines don't that are useful. Space marines have a lot of advantages that don't mean anything any more. Frag grenades, HTH stats, and ATSKNF. I list ATSKNF because of 6th edition casualty rates. You don't worry about rallying because your're dead.
I know, it's just that +1 Toughness, 1+ Armour Save, Chapter Tactics and excelling in shooting rather than close combat needs even more disadvantages to allow only a single point difference in my opinion.
BlaxicanX wrote: The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.
C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.
That´s it.
C:SM is ok. The problem is that C:CSM and C:SoB/AS should be balanced accordingly. In the case of CSM it is a "Codex Creep" problem, albeit a really big one. The SoB situation is darker: the Codex is brand new, yet it lacks lots of things.
One of the biggest problems in this game is the total lack of balance between the factions. It causes frictions among the players and loses to GW when people shelves their armies. And it is clearly intentional. Either we have fanboys writing the Codexes or they are really short-sighted.
Wait, in what world are Tac marines are overcosted?
Ignoring the kick in the ass CSM got being 1pt cheaper than their far superior loyalist brethren lets look at a unit often considered very good in the same price range, the Dire Avenger.
For a single point cheaper than a new age tac marine you get a superior (if shorter ranged) firearm, battle focus, fleet, counter attack and +1 initiative...
And the downside, what does the DA lose out on:
Immunity to sweeping advance and fear, auto regroups, -1 Toughness, -1 Save, -1 Strength, Krak grenades, no access to special/heavy weapons, limited sarg upgrades, no chapter tactics, no deep strike options.
That's a lot to lose for a single point.
There's slightly more of a case to be made for the older marine flavours where they are still paying the old rates for troops (Personally I'd rather see all the weirdo chapters in a single separate book with their own chapter tactics that serves as a C:SM supplement but that's another argument) but the Tac marine is good value for his points in the new codex. People are raving about bikes in the new dex but this is in the environment where so many people are complaining about high strength low AP weapons rendering their saves irrelevant but the answer seems to be to pay more points per model...
Tactical marines are overpriced in a world where you can take bike troops or just play Tau/Eldar/Daemons. Comparing overpriced and underperforming units (tactical marines) to even more overpriced units that aren't even fielded (CSM) doesn't really prove anything. I'm sure CSM are a great bargain for their points, just compare them to spending points on Flayed Ones or Mandrakes.
Steel is a great material to make knives out of. A steel knife is trusty and sturdy. But it doesn't help when you bring them to a gun fight. Marines aren't that bad, but people saying "Oh marines are fine" when tournament results clearly point to the contrary, and you will never hear anyone who knows what they're doing say "Yeah, C:SM is like one of the top armies, I should switch to C:SM" is just as bad as marine players who whine about how underpowered they are.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not complaining, so much as pointing out that GW should put in viable solutions for all lists in the base books. Many tournaments and play environments are FW free. That means advice revolving around FW is not universally useful.
You are complaining. You're saying "This stuff isn't in my book, it's in a supplement! That's not fair! I want it in MY book!"
Frankly (and saying this as someone with no disposable income who does just fine playing Sisters of Battle with Forge World using models from a brighter time), if you can't afford forge world, you can't afford 40k. The price difference is completely negligible. You just have to have a little damn patience and spend the time waiting for your next paycheck so you can buy FW instead of centurions (or whatever) painting and assembling the stuff you already own.
Its not that C:SM are overpriced, it's that CSM are overpriced. They should be 12 points per model.
That being said, CSM make decent troops when you make them fearless. One good way to do this is to take fabius bile, stick him in one 20 man blob granting the blob fearless, then use his power to make another blob fearless.
Aside from that, your best best with the CSM codex is to go with cult troops. Even in a world of wave serpents, plague marines still are rock solid.
ansacs wrote: Just to make sure; you have seen the FAQ for the PFG right? It has to be outside the vehicle to effect the vehicle or any units nearby.
The real problem is that DA landraider build is a nich build that falls apart the second your opponent happens to bring a stormraven, long strike, or necron gauss. There is also the problem that an opponent playing seprent spam or nightscythe spam doesn't have anything to fear from you. May the emperor help you if the opponent plays wraithguard in serpent spam or brought 2 fire dragons in serpents.
Tau should also have not trouble handling this as 2 riptides can just walk up and punch them to death with little to no fear of being seriously hurt.
Daemons can also dismantle him but they need to bring stuff which has become less popular in the internet lists or any MC that can survive massed bolter fire...like a GUO.
I didn't say that DA crusader build isebetter then every other army and that it wins with no need of luck or skill or ally.
It still does a lot better in tournaments then IG . And I yet have to see a demon player be able to take fateweaver and a Guo in the same list . Maybe if someone played higher then 1999pts.
The price difference is completely negligible.
You know that this ain't true . There is a difference between buying some at GW cost -20% and buying something at FW price +luxury tax+20% price for being not EU , while your in EU for years and the weeks of waiting it take for FW to actualy send their stuff to places like Poland . Sure we could all play cast models from Russia or China , which is cheaper by a lot , but then we wouldn't have a place to play . And all of this happens under a HUGE IF that the store owners will say ok to a product they don't sell themselfs and which draw away money from the sales people would be doing at their shops.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not complaining, so much as pointing out that GW should put in viable solutions for all lists in the base books. Many tournaments and play environments are FW free. That means advice revolving around FW is not universally useful.
You are complaining. You're saying "This stuff isn't in my book, it's in a supplement! That's not fair! I want it in MY book!"
Frankly (and saying this as someone with no disposable income who does just fine playing Sisters of Battle with Forge World using models from a brighter time), if you can't afford forge world, you can't afford 40k. The price difference is completely negligible. You just have to have a little damn patience and spend the time waiting for your next paycheck so you can buy FW instead of centurions (or whatever) painting and assembling the stuff you already own.
100% this^
much as i cant write a list that i like for 30k, i plan on doing a full forgeworld deathguard army... i have both of their HH books, my army currently consists of a master of signals+champion and a squad of 5 deathshrouds. guess what, i work part time on minimum wage!!, it took me the better part of 6 months to save up for those bits alone but as i have loads of GW stuff i've gathered over the years i dont care that my army will take ages to buy.
i wonder at the hatred of cost when this is a hobby, surely if you loved the game and couldn't afford the models you would sculpt your own/use something else/etc..... i value something by how long i expect to be using it for, not the cost i pay for it. in fact, the company i work for keeps toting the motto "value is measured in years, not in pounds" and i quite agree
but to the OP, my tacticals do just fine and i dont think they are over (or under-) costed. there are units that are good at taking them down (i would mention the helldrake but with good spacing i've never lost more than 4/5 marines to that thing, even in tournaments - not that scary for its cost really). i do mostly find myself against grey knights/tyranids/orks/blood angels and tau so perhaps i have a different meta but i would love to see the CSM guys get the same treatment as the 30k marines. Basically a watered down version of the new chapter tactics but i think they are a bit more fluffy.
Dunklezahn wrote: Wait, in what world are Tac marines are overcosted?
Ignoring the kick in the ass CSM got being 1pt cheaper than their far superior loyalist brethren lets look at a unit often considered very good in the same price range, the Dire Avenger.
For a single point cheaper than a new age tac marine you get a superior (if shorter ranged) firearm, battle focus, fleet, counter attack and +1 initiative...
And the downside, what does the DA lose out on:
Immunity to sweeping advance and fear, auto regroups, -1 Toughness, -1 Save, -1 Strength, Krak grenades, no access to special/heavy weapons, limited sarg upgrades, no chapter tactics, no deep strike options.
That's a lot to lose for a single point.
There's slightly more of a case to be made for the older marine flavours where they are still paying the old rates for troops (Personally I'd rather see all the weirdo chapters in a single separate book with their own chapter tactics that serves as a C:SM supplement but that's another argument) but the Tac marine is good value for his points in the new codex. People are raving about bikes in the new dex but this is in the environment where so many people are complaining about high strength low AP weapons rendering their saves irrelevant but the answer seems to be to pay more points per model...
T4 3+ ATSKNF is still a solid troop choice.
Problem is it's not.
T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.
ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?
Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?
Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!
Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!
3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.
Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.
Dunklezahn wrote: Wait, in what world are Tac marines are overcosted?
Ignoring the kick in the ass CSM got being 1pt cheaper than their far superior loyalist brethren lets look at a unit often considered very good in the same price range, the Dire Avenger.
For a single point cheaper than a new age tac marine you get a superior (if shorter ranged) firearm, battle focus, fleet, counter attack and +1 initiative...
And the downside, what does the DA lose out on:
Immunity to sweeping advance and fear, auto regroups, -1 Toughness, -1 Save, -1 Strength, Krak grenades, no access to special/heavy weapons, limited sarg upgrades, no chapter tactics, no deep strike options.
That's a lot to lose for a single point.
There's slightly more of a case to be made for the older marine flavours where they are still paying the old rates for troops (Personally I'd rather see all the weirdo chapters in a single separate book with their own chapter tactics that serves as a C:SM supplement but that's another argument) but the Tac marine is good value for his points in the new codex. People are raving about bikes in the new dex but this is in the environment where so many people are complaining about high strength low AP weapons rendering their saves irrelevant but the answer seems to be to pay more points per model...
T4 3+ ATSKNF is still a solid troop choice.
Problem is it's not.
T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.
ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?
Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?
Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!
Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!
3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.
Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.
ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.
Well you bring out these arguments, that people don't assault because assaults aren't worth it. Wouldn't that be an argument for that those Dire Avengers and Tactical Space Marines should have a clear point difference as Dire Avengers are a close combat unit and Tactical Space Marines excel at ranged combat, and thus are Dire Avengers having a overall harder time?
Though I do agree that there's a lot of weapons which are making it tough for Toughness 4 models as well then it's still better than Toughness 3. The example about Strength 5 weapons making Toughness 4 kind of redundant doesn't make sense. Arguments like "...there's many Strength 5 weapons out there" don't add much to the discussion.
Martel732 wrote: How much better, though? Certainly not as good as in 3rd or 4th edition.
For Strength 5 weapons: 20% better, as in 20% less are wounded. Given that they all get Armour Saves Tactical Space Marines are 33% better on top of that.
I'm not able and interested in comparing with earlier editions.
T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.
- Except it still means S5 wounds less often than against T3 and that every non-poison races basic weapon wounds less often so when you say worthless what you mean is 16.6% better against S5 or less weapons which I don't count as worthless.
ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
- Except every time you fail a break test and auto rally and don't have to snap shot, which also happens from psi powers and shooting. That's even assuming the fallacy that assault never happens.
+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?
- Guardians, Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Gaunts just a small selection of units a tac marine is capable of beating in melee a selection of which they'd much rather take WS3, S3 AP- hits from rather than be shot by. If the enemy wins, eh, they can't sweep you, they can make no such claim however...
Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?
- Never been tank shocked off an objective clearly, or pinned in combat by a walker, or attacked by an MC...
Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!
- Who pays powerfist prices, can be sniped and gives up his gun for a sword, reducing the units firepower which I thought was all that mattered?.
Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!
- Because by adding a Serpent doubles the cost of the unit rather than adding a rhino or pod at a fraction of the cost. It also still cannot Deep Strike as good as the Serpent is it lacks versatility and comes at a high cost.
3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.
- Guns have always existed that pierce 3+, this is not new. Any well rounded list should carry 3+ piercing because 50%+ of the armies use it. Those Guardians you are worrying about, the ones boltguns kill on a 3+ who can't fire until they get into double tap/assault range, those Guardians?
Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.
- Eldar have to get close, if they are firing those much vaunted Shuriken weapons they are already in assault range. A marine with a boltgun will always get first shot on any catapult user on foot unless you are playing really badly and can't estimate distance.
Being a Marine does not entitle a model to it's armour save. They already shrug off 66% of basic weapon fire but now there's a race that they have a bad matchup against, deal with it, everyone else does. They cost 1pt more than a model with less range, less toughness, worse save and 1pt more than a CSM they are infinitely preferable to.
GW undercut bikes across the board, their costs dropped across the codex board to take advantage of the fact they are £8 a model.
Tac marines are balanced just fine against their infantry opponents.
I buy my forge world stuff from other places, it is overpriced I agree, so is gw. The books are absolutely not overpriced, I buy historical hard back books of the same size and quality and they can be even more expensive, complain about the book prices all you like, but don't say they are overpriced.
And to the fella that said fw is banned at his local and tourneys, so what, it's not here, I don't see your point?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.
Your not shot constantly by STR 5 and greater. Even the 'power armies' bring a lot of lower strength weapons. What do guardians shoot?
This past August at NOVA I ran across fairly few armies that were spamming high strength shots. They do exist, but they are not every army. A higher toughness does help.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
Seer councils and screamers assault. In fact most of the daemon codex assaults. I'll take ATSKNF any day.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?
Its actually quite easy to charge serpents. In the last game I played, I dropped two sternguard squads down and shot up a wraithknight with the poisoned weapon rounds. He blew the pants off 12 of them, then the other 8 assaulted a serpent killing it. During this time, I was able to move my 30 bikes into position to assault 2 other serpents.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!
You never want to take the shimmer shield on the dire avengers. It drops their resilience and dakka (on a per point basis) into the ground.
I don't think it's a question of whether tac marine gear helps. Of course it helps. But does it help as much as they are getting charged for it? At least getting shot to death makes me feel better about not having a CC weapon. I still find Grey Hunters to be a golden standard the tac marines fall far short of.
T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.
- Except it still means S5 wounds less often than against T3 and that every non-poison races basic weapon wounds less often so when you say worthless what you mean is 16.6% better against S5 or less weapons which I don't count as worthless.
--Yes, but at the same time S5 and above has the high rate of fire to deal with your expensive troops, so it doesn't matter when they can put out enough shots to deal with you.
ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
- Except every time you fail a break test and auto rally and don't have to snap shot, which also happens from psi powers and shooting. That's even assuming the fallacy that assault never happens.
--I suppose, but at the same time I've seen squads utterly annihilated without even getting the chance to run with Tau and Eldar.
+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?
- Guardians, Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Gaunts just a small selection of units a tac marine is capable of beating in melee a selection of which they'd much rather take WS3, S3 AP- hits from rather than be shot by. If the enemy wins, eh, they can't sweep you, they can make no such claim however...
--Most which you'll never get into combat with good players, if the guardsmen let you get close it's likely an Azreal blob with power weapons
Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?
- Never been tank shocked off an objective clearly, or pinned in combat by a walker, or attacked by an MC...
Most walkers aren't taken anymore unless its AV13 like Furiso, MC's are all Shooty or Psykers with Iron arm...
Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!
- Who pays powerfist prices, can be sniped and gives up his gun for a sword, reducing the units firepower which I thought was all that mattered?.
You mentioned he was worse then the Sarge, and he still gets a pistol with rending, but I was just mentioning the ways he actually helps the unit
Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!
- Because by adding a Serpent doubles the cost of the unit rather than adding a rhino or pod at a fraction of the cost. It also still cannot Deep Strike as good as the Serpent is it lacks versatility and comes at a high cost.
And rhino's are easy first blood, it doesn't need versatility as it can deal with an entire squad.
3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.
- Guns have always existed that pierce 3+, this is not new. Any well rounded list should carry 3+ piercing because 50%+ of the armies use it. Those Guardians you are worrying about, the ones boltguns kill on a 3+ who can't fire until they get into double tap/assault range, those Guardians?
--Yes, and I was stating that they can break your saves with Guardians.
Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.
- Eldar have to get close, if they are firing those much vaunted Shuriken weapons they are already in assault range. A marine with a boltgun will always get first shot on any catapult user on foot unless you are playing really badly and can't estimate distance.
--Or WS break your vehicle, then breaks down your troops easier, and then the dire avengers just mop up.
Seer councils and screamers assault. In fact most of the daemon codex assaults. I'll take ATSKNF any day.
Fair enough, I havn't dealt with Seer Council Eldar and not many play CD here, and I haven't really pulled mine out since 5th edition.
Its actually quite easy to charge serpents. In the last game I played, I dropped two sternguard squads down and shot up a wraithknight with the poisoned weapon rounds. He blew the pants off 12 of them, then the other 8 assaulted a serpent killing it. During this time, I was able to move my 30 bikes into position to assault 2 other serpents.
Hmm I suppose if you take a bike list, I play CSM so I am not afforded this luxury.
Your not shot constantly by STR 5 and greater. Even the 'power armies' bring a lot of lower strength weapons. What do guardians shoot?
This past August at NOVA I ran across fairly few armies that were spamming high strength shots. They do exist, but they are not every army. A higher toughness does help.
Ton of Tau and Eldar players here, so I'm pretty used to getting shot down.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Hmm I suppose if you take a bike list, I play CSM so I am not afforded this luxury.
Don't CSM get 20 point bikes? 30 of them is pretty cheap point wise (not dollar wise). CSM also don't have drop pods -- which are awesome.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Ton of Tau and Eldar players here, so I'm pretty used to getting shot down.
That's a very valid point. Its very meta-dependent.
I do use bikes, problem is when Misfortune is cast on them (With either Tau or Eldar), they'll either dissipate from Markerlight ignored cover, or just a massive amount of shots from Wave Serpants and the rest of the army.
Most of the Eldar here use Jetbikes with Farseer, Prisms, and Wave Serpants, Tau don't use Riptides (mostly due to the cost, ), but they mostly use armies they would've used from 5th, cheaper crisis suits (with one or two farsight lists), and still pathfinders.
I can actually deal with the Tau lists easier then I can Eldar.
Well, I'm not. I think tactical marines have a dubious load of wargear that they obviously pay for. Combine that with wound spam-o-rama....
But look; we're derailing a bit. All meqs have various issues right now. CSM are the worst off in most ways, but they do have the plague marine, which is still quite difficult to mow down, even for Eldar. The problem being, of course, is that even plague marines can't take five turn of Tau or Eldar wailing on them. I don't know if they factored chapter tactics to the cost of marines. I somehow doubt it. I don't think any of the tactics are really that great except for White Scars. So yeah, we can point to white scars, in the scheme of things, this only makes them better than DA troops and CSM troops. Chapter tactics is not letting marines get over on Tau/Eldar/Daemons.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Holy ******* **** are you people really saying tactical marines are better than Eldar troops and Rhinos are better than Wave Serpents?
No, we're saying that a tac marine is marginally superior to a Dire Avenger that costs one point less and thus a Tac marine is at about the right price point. A rhino that costs 1/4 of the points of a Serpent being better would be rather broken.
I think Chapter tactics were factored in points wise, a Tac marine with his chapter trick drops nicely into the elite infantry price range at a level that is competitive with his peers. The problem lies in how cheap bikers were made and the way Grav guns were made to work (ie far superior on bikes).
I think tac marines were balanced around the first tactic they came up with and then they just hammered out a few special rules and in GW's own classic way forgot how certain rules interact.
The White Scars tactic by itself isn't that impressive, however it's pretty much assumed that the army is lead by Khan so suddenly they have a far more powerful tactic.
The 16pt flavours are struggling, it's a 20-30pt (because they still get stuck with compulsory vet sarges I believe?) premium per squad of 10 but even they have to count themselves lucky compared to the basic CSM for whom Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF combined are considered a one point upgrade.
The 16pt flavours are struggling, it's a 20-30pt (because they still get stuck with compulsory vet sarges I believe?) premium per squad of 10 but even they have to count themselves lucky compared to the basic CSM for whom Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF combined are considered a one point upgrade.
Don't forget the fact that they are forced to take the Aspiring Champion, and all Characters are forced to challenge.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Holy fething gak are you people really saying tactical marines are better than Eldar troops
Yes. Then again, how many eldar players are spamming dire avengers/guardians on foot?
They are spamming wave serpents, and the troops are a tax on the serpents.
Martel732 wrote: But look; we're derailing a bit. All meqs have various issues right now. CSM are the worst off in most ways, but they do have the plague marine, which is still quite difficult to mow down, even for Eldar. The problem being, of course, is that even plague marines can't take five turn of Tau or Eldar wailing on them. I don't know if they factored chapter tactics to the cost of marines. I somehow doubt it. I don't think any of the tactics are really that great except for White Scars. So yeah, we can point to white scars, in the scheme of things, this only makes them better than DA troops and CSM troops. Chapter tactics is not letting marines get over on Tau/Eldar/Daemons.
Plague marines are still money. With FNP, they are just as durable (point for point) as grey hunters when getting shot by STR 7 serpent shields, and more durable vs scatter lasers. They do need something that can disrupt the serpents. No army can withstand 6 turns of getting shot at by 6+ serpents unmolested. Some damage must be delivered in return, and 24" guns are not the way to do it.
I like a lot of the traits can be useful if you design your army to use them. A squad of IF dev cents in a bastion with tiggy giving them ignore cover is death incarnate to serpent spam. They ignore cover, reroll armor penetration rolls, split fire, reroll to hits and cannot be hurt by scatter lasers or serpent shields. The only thing that can deal with it are wraithknights, and the imperial player still has lots of points to dedicate to them.
I think you can make a brutal infantry spam list with UM if you take Calgar. Calgar means that you must kill every single model. By combat squadding you have 18 different squads, 12 of which are sporting LCs or MLs.
The only CT I find that's pretty much garbage is raven guard. They can't even scout up assault marines. If they could take assault marines as troops it might be worth salvaging, but until then its just complete and utter garbage.
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Dunklezahn wrote: The problem lies in how cheap bikers were made and the way Grav guns were made to work (ie far superior on bikes).
Bikes have their own issues. They may be T5, but that's been less effective since the GK codex came out and started spamming psycannons. (note, thats when I actually shelved my bike army)
Bikes have gotten cheaper. 16% per model, and you save the 15 point tax to start the squad. (3 bikes were 90 points and 25 each thereafter). However attack bikes increased by 10 points, so if you want to take that attack bike, its not as good of a deal. So if your taking an attack bike and 5 normal bikes your only really saving 10 points on the squad over the previous codex.
What makes the bike squad good IMHO is that they get the white scars tactics and the grav gun on a relenetless platform.
Hmm seems like I'm almost alone in thinking that Tactical Space Marines should cost 1 or 2 points more, and that's okay - my main argument was a bigger point difference were needed between the Chaos Space Marine and a Tactical Space Marine.
But... Am I only discussing this with Space Marine players? Or do some of you, who argues that their point cost is fair or maybe a bit too high, actually don't play Space Marines?
I would also appreciate to hear your thoughts (in the other thread I linked to) about letting Chaos Space Marines use Chapter Tactics as well, though I actually don't like these kind of house rules.
CSM need something, either a drop in points or a buff. This can be done though a suppliment.
I think CSM should get a mark for free.
I know, before you knee jerk and say that's OP, just how more effective would 60 marines +1 toughness be? Would that +1 toughness be worth the following
- +1 jink save
- +1 strength for HoW - Hit and Run
- Ignore difficult terrain tests
I actually think that a +1 toughness is right in line. I would argue its better than the Khorne or Slaanesh marks.
labmouse42 wrote: CSM need something, either a drop in points or a buff. This can be done though a suppliment.
I think CSM should get a mark for free.
I know, before you knee jerk and say that's OP, just how more effective would 60 marines +1 toughness be? Would that +1 toughness be worth the following
- +1 jink save
- +1 strength for HoW - Hit and Run
- Ignore difficult terrain tests
I actually think that a +1 toughness is right in line. I would argue its better than the Khorne or Slaanesh marks.
Yes because the only real option is Nurgle, we know this, it's why it's Cultists or Plague Marines or Nurgle marked X (Oblits, bikers, take your pick).
Seeing as Khorne mark got unnecessarily nerfed, Slaanesh is okay but for many units it's just not useful at all.
I agree. They tried to correct that discrepancy by making Nurgle the most expensive, but that still fails. Instead they should have boosted the other traits.
labmouse42 wrote: I agree. They tried to correct that discrepancy by making Nurgle the most expensive, but that still fails. Instead they should have boosted the other traits.
It's slowly derailing here and maybe it's because we all almost agree, but can we keep further discussion about rule wishes in the Proposed rules sections, preferably in the thread I posted there? I'll soon be posting a suggestion to alter the Champion of Chaos rule slightly.
Right now it at least doesn't seem that anybody disagrees to Chaos Space Marines being too expensive. If there's a person (preferably a person who works at GW )who sincerely doesn't agree, then it would be great to hear your thoughts.
labmouse42 wrote:Yes. Then again, how many eldar players are spamming dire avengers/guardians on foot?
They are spamming wave serpents, and the troops are a tax on the serpents.
This is so true. Serpents are the reason people spam dire avengers. Not dire avengers. I would say dire avengers are almost perfectly costed. Now the exarch options are just laughably bad in their costing...what makes them think TLing shots on BS5 is worth 10+ pts?
labmouse42 wrote:The only CT I find that's pretty much garbage is raven guard. They can't even scout up assault marines. If they could take assault marines as troops it might be worth salvaging, but until then its just complete and utter garbage.
I would disagree with this. You can make a really cool and pretty brutal forward scouting list by spamming TAC squads in rhinos. Having 60+ PA bodies in your deployment zone first turn is not something most opponent's want to see. It is even entirely fluffy.
labmouse42 wrote:Yes. Then again, how many eldar players are spamming dire avengers/guardians on foot?
They are spamming wave serpents, and the troops are a tax on the serpents.
This is so true. Serpents are the reason people spam dire avengers. Not dire avengers. I would say dire avengers are almost perfectly costed. Now the exarch options are just laughably bad in their costing...what makes them think TLing shots on BS5 is worth 10+ pts?
labmouse42 wrote:The only CT I find that's pretty much garbage is raven guard. They can't even scout up assault marines. If they could take assault marines as troops it might be worth salvaging, but until then its just complete and utter garbage.
I would disagree with this. You can make a really cool and pretty brutal forward scouting list by spamming TAC squads in rhinos. Having 60+ PA bodies in your deployment zone first turn is not something most opponent's want to see. It is even entirely fluffy.
For some reason, forward tac squads does not concern me in the least. Maybe because tac squads are very, very meh.
Khan can do something similar but turn 1 stealth, no required special character, and the ability to scout even without a dedicated transport is an advantage. Khan is not really a great HQ choice in and off himself. He is a bargain but I would rather either do something like Reece with jetpacks and Shrike or take a EW 2+/3++ chapter master to bring the pain and tank shots.
Furyou Miko wrote: Tacticals are way too cheap. So are Chaos Marines though. One point difference for +1 WS, S, T and I? Let alone 2 points for all that, AND ATSKNF...
Tactical Marines are pretty much garbage these days. Too fragile due to the prevalence of AP3 to be useful, and too expensive to be fielded en masse.
Space Marines have been incredibly devalued in the game because they've become the baseline unit against which everything else is measured, whereas earlier games used the Guardsman as the baseline unit/stat line.
Not that there aren't overcosted units in other armies, but the Space Marine Tacticals would be a hindrance to Marine armies if they were any more expensive.
It's not just the problems with 3+ saves. It's the gear I'm sure they are getting charged for that just doesn't matter. Frag grenades? Krak grenades? Bolt pistol? They aren't efficacious enough in HTH for these things to matter. In fact, krak grenades frequently get marines killed by not allowing them to use "Our wepaons are useless". Also, ATSKNF can be a cruel joke when you WANT your troops to die so you can shoot a victorious enemy assault unit, but can't because you troops DIDN'T DIE. Unfortunately, marines still have to worry about lots of other armies getting to assault, because they can't shell it out in the shooting phase like/move like top lists.
I'm really trying hard to find the redeeming qualities here for the tac marines, but I'm not coming up with much.
Martel732 I am sorry but about 75% of your posts make me think of Marvin from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy;
Check out Reece's batrep. Try a game with a similar list. 60+ SM bodies in your deployment zone turn 1 is not meh. If done right there is very little the opponent can do to actually win the game. When combat squaded even just killing that many SM is a challenge.
Actually now that I think of it an IH version of that would be pretty funny. Like playing whack a mole.
Honestly you need to get out of "Nothing will work" and think of the solution not the problem.
I didn't say nothing would work. I just don't think tac marines are scary enough for this particular scheme to be effective. I feel that even BA can wipe up 60 tac marines in 5 turns. Hell, Mephiston could do 3-4 squads himself if he's in the list. And he kinda sucks now, because he's just a bully. But 60 tac marines are asking to be bullied.
Come to think of it, many of my BA lists DREAM of having 60 tac marines within arms reach.
Yes, I just said something good about BA. That's how bad I think the 60 tac scheme is.
Well if you run Meph then that is a hard counter unit. It is like saying waveserpent suck because IF Devs w/ Tiggy can kill one every turn with trivial effort. Or helldrakes suck because stormravens kill them in a single turn of shooting 50% of the time.
Meph was ridiculously good when he ignored armour saves. Meph is awesome at killing TAC marines in CC.
BTW this discussion is ridiculous as the TAC marine player has no reason to rush up to a BA player. They will fight a retreating gunline fight against most BA lists and kill Meph with their 12 melta shots. The strength of TAC squads is that they can out melee the shooty guys and out shoot the melee guys. BA are better at melee than this list but worse at shooting.
I think my BA could take out 60 tacs no matter what they did. They just don't have enough firepower to command respect.
I'm gaming out how to deal with helldrakes, WS, Taudar, etc. 60 tac marines is a coffee break compared to those lists. Tac marines have manageable fire power and crap HTH skills.
Also, don't tac marines lose to guardsmen on a point by point basis in HTH? Or at 14 points do they finally win?
By the time the 150 pts of IG whitle a 140 pts SM unit down to 0 (which they have to thankyou ATSKNF!) the IG unit has a will fail a morale check even on a Ld10 stubborn. It will also take about 4 game turns to resolve that. (aka I would rather charge a IG blobb with a 5 man TAC squad to tie it up than get shot. If it is a 10 man unit then charge with 10-20 TAC marines and kill them)
I'm not sure the marines will win enough rounds of combat to force enough LD saves, but there will definitely be the tarpit factor. The 60 scouting tac marines is obviously a bigger headache for guard, but I just feel that are too many lists that will just lol at it. Tac marines just don't cause enough damage to be scary.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not sure the marines will win enough rounds of combat to force enough LD saves, but there will definitely be the tarpit factor. The 60 scouting tac marines is obviously a bigger headache for guard, but I just feel that are too many lists that will just lol at it. Tac marines just don't cause enough damage to be scary.
My current CSM list would laugh because that would be the perfect matchup, 2X blastmasters don't care about tac marines, and have fun trying to bolter down FNP models, while at the same time bikes with plasma, while a Chaos Lord armed with a torrent AP3 flamethrower would deal so easily with it..
Perhaps there is some confusion as to the fact that each SM squad in such a list can have 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon. 60 SM + 6 rhinos is only 1080 pts. You have plenty of points to add plasma/melta and MM/ML/LC/PC etc. You can also take up to 3 TFC and 3 LotD!
Using Reecius as a defense for C:SM is not something I would do for a couple of reasons:
1. He's a damn good player. He and Tony Kopach are literally the only two players to top 16 major GTs with 5E C:SM in 6th. That says a lot. Maybe you're as good as they are, but I highly doubt it.
2. Reecius almost always allies SW in his successful lists. I'm sure the RPs and GHs help a lot. Kopach relied on scouts and IG allies to win.
3. If marines were really that good (criminally underpriced, as you people are putting it?), everyone would be playing them and winning tournaments. "But everyone does play them!" Yeah, all the little kids and the guys at your local shops. They see less play than the typical top books and get worse results despite being played more than other books. You don't need to argue that Tau or Eldar or Daemons are strong or underpriced. The proof is there. But marines?
Furyou Miko wrote: Sounds like someone needs to get stomped by Sisters of Battle... maybe then you'll learn to respect massed bolters, Martel.
What does a sister cost compared to a space marine? They probably aren't paying for HTH capabilites that aren't part of the mass bolter scheme, so they are likely better at it than tac marines.
Also, but by *definition* massed bolters aren't as scary as massed pulse rifles or massed Eldar S6/7 shenanigans. Yeah, I might lose, but I'm a) not going to be intimidated by it and b) will probably cause a lot more damage to 60 tac marines in rhinos than 30 DA in WS.
Furyou Miko wrote: Sounds like someone needs to get stomped by Sisters of Battle... maybe then you'll learn to respect massed bolters, Martel.
What does a sister cost compared to a space marine? They probably aren't paying for HTH capabilites that aren't part of the mass bolter scheme, so they are likely better at it than tac marines.
Also, but by *definition* massed bolters aren't as scary as massed pulse rifles or massed Eldar S6/7 shenanigans. Yeah, I might lose, but I'm a) not going to be intimidated by it and b) will probably cause a lot more damage to 60 tac marines in rhinos than 30 DA in WS.
They are one point cheaper then a CSM marine.
Of course the irony is that they are weaker to massed bolter spam then even Marines of any caliber.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:Using Reecius as a defense for C:SM is not something I would do for a couple of reasons:
1. He's a damn good player. He and Tony Kopach are literally the only two players to top 16 major GTs with 5E C:SM in 6th. That says a lot. Maybe you're as good as they are, but I highly doubt it.
2. Reecius almost always allies SW in his successful lists. I'm sure the RPs and GHs help a lot. Kopach relied on scouts and IG allies to win.
3. If marines were really that good (criminally underpriced, as you people are putting it?), everyone would be playing them and winning tournaments. "But everyone does play them!" Yeah, all the little kids and the guys at your local shops. They see less play than the typical top books and get worse results despite being played more than other books. You don't need to argue that Tau or Eldar or Daemons are strong or underpriced. The proof is there. But marines?
No arguement he is a very good player.
Who said underpriced. They are priced almost perfectly. They are the gold standard of unit pricing in my estimation. Actually the SM bikers are starting to rack up the tourney wins. We will have to wait 2-3 months more before we can see if the player distribution changes as SM is still very recent and people have just barely assembled any new purchases. The only reason eldar were kicking butt out of the gate is that the only viable army for most of 5th and 6th edition under their old codex (serpent spam) became their tournament winner build.
Martel732 wrote:What does a sister cost compared to a space marine? They probably aren't paying for HTH capabilites that aren't part of the mass bolter scheme, so they are likely better at it than tac marines.
Also, but by *definition* massed bolters aren't as scary as massed pulse rifles or massed Eldar S6/7 shenanigans. Yeah, I might lose, but I'm a) not going to be intimidated by it and b) will probably cause a lot more damage to 60 tac marines in rhinos than 30 DA in WS.
I am thinking you need to experience a banner of devastation RW list. That will teach you to respect the bolter.
Honestly the scary thing about TAC squads is not their bolters it is their resiliency combined with the semi respectable damage output of melta/plasma.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:Using Reecius as a defense for C:SM is not something I would do for a couple of reasons:
1. He's a damn good player. He and Tony Kopach are literally the only two players to top 16 major GTs with 5E C:SM in 6th. That says a lot. Maybe you're as good as they are, but I highly doubt it.
2. Reecius almost always allies SW in his successful lists. I'm sure the RPs and GHs help a lot. Kopach relied on scouts and IG allies to win.
3. If marines were really that good (criminally underpriced, as you people are putting it?), everyone would be playing them and winning tournaments. "But everyone does play them!" Yeah, all the little kids and the guys at your local shops. They see less play than the typical top books and get worse results despite being played more than other books. You don't need to argue that Tau or Eldar or Daemons are strong or underpriced. The proof is there. But marines?
No arguement he is a very good player.
Who said underpriced. They are priced almost perfectly. They are the gold standard of unit pricing in my estimation. Actually the SM bikers are starting to rack up the tourney wins. We will have to wait 2-3 months more before we can see if the player distribution changes as SM is still very recent and people have just barely assembled any new purchases. The only reason eldar were kicking butt out of the gate is that the only viable army for most of 5th and 6th edition under their old codex (serpent spam) became their tournament winner build.
Martel732 wrote:What does a sister cost compared to a space marine? They probably aren't paying for HTH capabilites that aren't part of the mass bolter scheme, so they are likely better at it than tac marines.
Also, but by *definition* massed bolters aren't as scary as massed pulse rifles or massed Eldar S6/7 shenanigans. Yeah, I might lose, but I'm a) not going to be intimidated by it and b) will probably cause a lot more damage to 60 tac marines in rhinos than 30 DA in WS.
I am thinking you need to experience a banner of devastation RW list. That will teach you to respect the bolter.
Honestly the scary thing about TAC squads is not their bolters it is their resiliency combined with the semi respectable damage output of melta/plasma.
I've experienced it. It hurt, but I still don't think the bolter is a very impressive weapon at all. Bolters lack the perks of xeno weapons. Without the catapult rule, every shot had to go against 3+/5+ FNPBA ASM. They wound on 4's not 3's or 2's like Xeno weapons.
Besides, it's the banner that's nasty, not the bolter. If the Tau had the banner, it would even better, becaue then it would be boosting pulse rifles. The bottom line is there really isn't anything an meq list can to do to intimidate me in the face of Xeno shooting and Daemon shenanigans. RW bikers are way easier to kill than the screamer star or seer council, so I'm cool with them. I guess White Scars are pretty scary, but the rest are kinda meh.
Fair enough. Though I still think that there are some TAC squad centric builds that will come to fruition. The white scars is just the most obvious power build.
(And yes, 
)who sincerely doesn't agree, then it would be great to hear your thoughts.