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Since the latest Space Marine codex were published I've been very puzzled about the Chapter Tactics rules. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that the rules themselves were introduced as there should be clear differences between Chapters and it's great that also Forgeworld has made rules for their Chapters. I just can't understand why these don't cost any points.

I'm a Chaos Daemon and Chaos Space Marine player, and I've always thought that Tactical Space Marines were more point-effective than Chaos Space Marines, also before their 6th edition codices and now Tactical Space Marines get even more for their points and it's not that players have talked about how point-ineffective Tactical Space Marines have been for ages, so why did they get these rules without getting more expensive?

As you can see I'm leaning towards that Chaos Space Marines are probably priced right compared to all other armies and that's Tactical Space Marines which are too cheap, but it could be that it's Chaos Space Marines which are too expensive.
Chapter Tactics together with a weak and boring Chaos Space Marines codex have made me shelf my Chaos Space Marines armies except the Death Guard but it would be nice to hear constructive arguments either that I'm right in my conclusion or actually even better: if you can persuade me to think that I have overreacted.

My own rough estimates is that Tactical Space Marines should cost 16 points each. My estimate is based on a comparison with Chaos Space Marines:

Chaos Space Marines can have 5-20 models = Tactical Space Marines have the options of Drop Pods and Razorbacks besides the Rhino
Chaos Space Marines can have 2 Special weapons = Tactical Marines have Combat squads

That they're never getting swept in close combat, never completely breaks, are immune to fear, moves 9" after regrouping (they get their complete turn as opposed to all other armies) and have Chapter Tactics is definitely worth more than 1 point in my opinion.

GW's idea of 'balance'.

No other way to explain it, sadly.

Well, either that or a dart board and some tequila...

Because they replaced the old combat tactics rule space marines used to have. It was a standard feature that was worked into the cost of the models before, and now it doesn't exist, as it was replaced by chapter tactics.

Mainly because SM are GW's baby child and main cash cow for 40K so they'll obviously get a one-up on chaos or hell almost any previous marine variant codex before them. They will always get some variation of the "new" thing of the current edition like in 5th ed. with the whole focus on special characters providing the flavour changes in the previous addition via "counts as" as well as the intro to the ubiquitous 3+ invuln. saves in the game with their changes to storm shields and their easily accessible nature in marine armies via terminators or otherwise. This really has only been exacerbated with the addition of the almost auto-take Shield Eternal relic.

It's a pity that CSM had to come out as the first book of the edition as now they miss out on the ship of having legit flavour in representing certain combat styles that could have just as easily been introduced in the CSM codex. Their supplement(s) so far haven't done anything to alleviate this shortfall either.

You are leaning the wrong way. SM are price about right. They are a pretty well written codex with a large number of viable options (ironically if the helldrake didn't exist they would have a lot more options than they do).

The CSM codex is somewhat boring and is very poorly balanced both internally and externally. CSM are overpriced (their icons should have been reduced in price and they really should have been given "chapter tactics"). Honestly though you could always run your CSM using the SM codex as power armour is power armour and most of the units translate just fine. In fact Iron Hands CT would make a pretty great Death Guard army and Imperial Fists would work great for Iron Warriors. Khorne would work well with the Carcharodons rules from Forgeworld. The only negative is the BB allies matrix won't let you take daemons.

Because waging the long war makes you really bad at being clever?

But seriously, GW's pricing methodology seems to take the position that if you have more options, your base price needs to go up to reflect 'flexibility' or something like that. A lot of the really cost-efficient units have relatively limited options compared to the sheer variety of choices available to a Chaos marine. The fact that most of those picks are not worthwhile on the face of the direct upgrade cost doesn't seem pertinent. While there is something to be said for making a unit cost less due to lack of options, the cost for flexibility should be in the option itself, not baked into the baseline price.

 Lord Gatlas wrote:
Because they replaced the old combat tactics rule space marines used to have. It was a standard feature that was worked into the cost of the models before, and now it doesn't exist, as it was replaced by chapter tactics.

Well I don't think that the old Combat Tactics were worth very much, at least not as much as Chapter Tactics, or as much as And They Shall Know No Fear for that matter. It doesn't change my opinion about Tactical Space Marines being too cheap back in 5th edition and also now in 6th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Because waging the long war makes you really bad at being clever?

But seriously, GW's pricing methodology seems to take the position that if you have more options, your base price needs to go up to reflect 'flexibility' or something like that. A lot of the really cost-efficient units have relatively limited options compared to the sheer variety of choices available to a Chaos marine. The fact that most of those picks are not worthwhile on the face of the direct upgrade cost doesn't seem pertinent. While there is something to be said for making a unit cost less due to lack of options, the cost for flexibility should be in the option itself, not baked into the baseline price.

Yes it could very much look like that even though you can only use your flexibility to a certain point. Defilers are probably that expensive because they have a lot of shooting and close combat possibilities. The only problem is that you can't use both if you're in close combat or if you make use of the long range of the Battle Cannon. So maybe internal balance doesn't even cover this area!? What term could be used for a single unit which is not balanced within itself?


And back to the topic. I'm still open for arguments that we're all wrong here!

Tacticals are way too cheap. So are Chaos Marines though. One point difference for +1 WS, S, T and I? Let alone 2 points for all that, AND ATSKNF...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Tacticals are way too cheap. So are Chaos Marines though. One point difference for +1 WS, S, T and I? Let alone 2 points for all that, AND ATSKNF...

Hmmm? Which units are you talking about? Their numbers are identical. It's their rules and options which differ.

Anyone who thinks that Tacticals are too cheap in today's meta probably needs to think about what pseudo-rending Shuriken weapons, Heldrakes, grav-weapons and Riptides do to 3+ armour.

She is talking about SoB (AS now). Which are likely pointed as they are for the access to flamer+HF at 5 model units, the 6++, and the AoF.

Honestly first think about how many SM lists with max TAC squads are winning big at GTs? Now if these were under priced they should be the big go to unit like Grey Hunters, Nightscythe-Warriors, Eldar Jetbikes, or Oblits. If they were OP undercosted they would have a thread per week complaining about them like; Vendetta, Helldrake, Waveserpent, and Riptide. Notice that they are in neither category and so they must be in one of the categories; Just Right, Overpriced, or Garbage. CSM are Overpriced, Rough Riders are Garbage, and SM are somewhere near Just Right.

I am still not convince of where SoB are at. Their access to support elements and special/heavy weapons makes it tough to judge.

CSM are clearly over priced as no one takes them if they can avoid it. They are almost universally replaced with cult troops or cultists.

Why are Heldrakes so cheap?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Why are Heldrakes so cheap?

The original rules before the FAQ was under priced but not ridiculously so. After the FAQ it became truly broken. It went from getting 1 good shooting phases per 2 turns they were on the table to getting a productive shooting phase every single turn. Just like the riptide only becomes broken with the addition of markerlights or a buff commander + IC riptide.

Actually, SM tac marines are still probably overcosted for 6th edition rules. I realize this makes CSM very, very overcosted, but most of the marine pricing from 3rd edition on has been about the 3+ armor. Now that 3+ armor is garbage because of the weight of fire of Xeno lists.

Both CSM and loyalists are really suffering from paying for "flexibility". Too bad the flexibility doesn't do a thing when on the wrong end of a scatter laser. Don't feel too bad CSM, ATSKNF doesn't do a thing when you're dead.

The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.

C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.

I admit that I'd be pissed as hell if I owned CSM. Yeah, the Helldrake is all kinds of broken, but the codex goes downhill quickly from there.

I wouldn't hold up C:SM is some kind of standard, though. C:SM still has crappy internal balance.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.

C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.

C:SM does not have a Heldrake equivalent. Why should every book have equivalents?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.

C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.

Perfect. a sensible argument besides blind marine-hate.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.

C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.

C:SM does not have a Heldrake equivalent. Why should every book have equivalents?

It's not about equivalents. It's about internal balance. CSM should be called Codex: Helldrake.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.

C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.

And C: DA has "stubborn + drawback" , so CSM aren't the only ones head scratching at C:SM's clearly superior army wide (minus vehicles {unless Iron Hands}) special rules.

It's GW's way of admitting they screwed the DA and CSM.

Martel732 wrote:
It's GW's way of admitting they screwed the DA and CSM.

This. I'm tempted to just give BA, DA, and CSM a 10% credit in my local meta on PA troop units.

Martel732 wrote:
It's GW's way of admitting they screwed the DA and CSM.

Actually the only real issue with the DA codex is a complete and utter lack of AA to kill hellturkeys. Why do they not get stormravens again? Honestly bikers in PA are fine if they just had something to kill hellturkeys. Guess that is what allies are for.

CSM really only need price adjustments on their wargear/marks/icons and they would have been okay. The problem with their units is not that you cannot get enough bodies for the points but rather that they have terrible DPP and have morale issues...both which would have been fixed with cheaper wargear/marks/icons.

Ironically the worst offender at making PA models suffer is the helldrake and it single handedly invalidates many builds in it's own codex as CSM lack effective AA much like DA. This is why forgeworld is awesome; they give reliable AA to the armies which lack it. (I am not trying to get into a debate so sorry if I spark one)

GW should have put said AA options in the codices, not their overpriced quasi-rules.

Martel732 wrote:
GW should have put said AA options in the codices, not their overpriced quasi-rules.

Forge world is official, always has been. If you want to discuss that, there's another thread.

FW is also banned at many tournaments, as well as my play group.

alright let's make some comparisons here.

Chaos Space marines. 75 points for a squad of 5 with each marine costing 13 pts a model.

they get a free aspiring champion with 2 attacks and leadership 9.*the HQ also has to accept challanges and can get buffs for winning challanges)

let's compare this to vanilla marines. 70 points for a 5 man squad. their sergent which they get for free is only leadership 8 with 1 attack each marine costs 14 points a model.

the long and hard of it is that vanilla marines are better costed true. but chaos marines are better in a melee scrap (even without spending the 2 points a model for CCWs) and are better lead. yes Marines have ATSKNF, but their leadership is weaker.

generally I think that chaos marines are slightly over pointed vs vanilla, but they're competitive eneugh


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 ansacs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's GW's way of admitting they screwed the DA and CSM.

Actually the only real issue with the DA codex is a complete and utter lack of AA to kill hellturkeys. Why do they not get stormravens again? Honestly bikers in PA are fine if they just had something to kill hellturkeys. Guess that is what allies are for.

they gave you guys a flier.

The problem is that the marine stat line and weapon load outs are very competitive in general, and the CSM have to pay more than vanilla marines. I don't consider ATSKNF to be a huge loss, because I've been having trouble being killed, not running away.

The DA get a watered-down version of a Forge World Sisters flier. :p Hardly on the same level as the Raven or the Drake.

As for Forge World being banned in your area, that's your problem, not GW's, so it's kind of up to you to change peoples minds and fix it.

That kind of won't fly , because there are more people who can't afford the top tier FW stuff , then those that can and because non of the stores here sell FW , the stores who are the main tournament orgs here aren't interested in people buying FW stuff from UK , then normal GW stuff from the stores. Wish there was an option to buy FW stuff at the GW store in Warsaw , but there is no such option . Or rather there is , you can go to the GW with your own credit card and they will help you type the order in . I guess it is an option for those people who have credit cards , but somehow don't have interent access at home or work .


The DA seem to work just fine . We have a player here who runs a triple LR crusader list with dakka banner and power field generator and if the gaming space allows it a landing pad , he throws 100+shots per turn that kill demons and tau. Eldar can kill him , but have to get real close and realy kill 3 LR in a single turn or the stuff that got out is dead as dead can be.