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Just to make sure; you have seen the FAQ for the PFG right? It has to be outside the vehicle to effect the vehicle or any units nearby.

The real problem is that DA landraider build is a nich build that falls apart the second your opponent happens to bring a stormraven, long strike, or necron gauss. There is also the problem that an opponent playing seprent spam or nightscythe spam doesn't have anything to fear from you. May the emperor help you if the opponent plays wraithguard in serpent spam or brought 2 fire dragons in serpents.

Tau should also have not trouble handling this as 2 riptides can just walk up and punch them to death with little to no fear of being seriously hurt.

Daemons can also dismantle him but they need to bring stuff which has become less popular in the internet lists or any MC that can survive massed bolter fire...like a GUO.

I have no interest in fighting in behalf of FW. It can stay banned as far as I'm concerned.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.

C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.

Pretty much this. C:SM tacticals are in fact pretty crappy, even with Chapter Tactics. It's just that point for point, CSM are slightly worse (though with some potential advantages, too).

As for DA AA that seems to be a semi-hot side-topic? They still have flak missiles. The DA fliers aren't that great at AA, so yeah, C:SM has the advantage there, but it's not like DA can't get AA. Try the Sisters out if you want actual lack of AA (And yes, SW don't have any either, but SoB already got their update, SW haven't).

Martel732 wrote:
I have no interest in fighting in behalf of FW. It can stay banned as far as I'm concerned.

Then don't complain you don't have access to their toys.

Either way, it's unreasonable to expect GW to create duplicate rules just to fit in what little field of view your blinkers allow you to retain..

I'm not complaining, so much as pointing out that GW should put in viable solutions for all lists in the base books. Many tournaments and play environments are FW free. That means advice revolving around FW is not universally useful.

Meh, the DA had the first Chapter Tactic. Their's isn't much worse than the Iron Hands one. A lot more situational. (Definitely not as powerful as the Salamanders or White Scars one.)

Stubborn + Characters and DW have Fearless and PE (CSM). Their Ravenwing have all the buffs of White Scars built in, but cost more (as well as a teleport homer on each bike). They cost more, of course. They also suffer from being a codex that focuses on a single chapter, as only Azrael / Belial / Sammael affect the FOO.

However, without special characters, Dark Angels get access to better wargear options on their termies and Divination. All of their basic troops cost the same as Space Marines (such as their veterans costing the same as Sternguard)

Divination is a non-trivial advantage, for sure.

Okay then... Seems like I didn't overreact after all but that Tactical Space Marines also were kind of over-costed...

I'll take the opportunity to link to another thread which is about letting Chaos Space Marines have Chapter Tactics rules too:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/560697.page#6203158

It's interesting though that you think that also Tactical Space Marines are over-costed, because when compared to for example Troops choices like Dire Avengers and Guardians they don't seem to need a point reduction. I would still argue that at the moment there should be 3 points in difference between a Chaos Space Marine and a Tactical Space Marine, so probably 12 and 15 points for them. If Chaos Space marines got Chapter Tactics rules too then 13 points would seem fine again I think, making And They Shall Know No Fear worth 2 points, which I think is perfect.

Dire Avengers have a lot of advantages Space Marines don't that are useful. Space marines have a lot of advantages that don't mean anything any more. Frag grenades, HTH stats, and ATSKNF. I list ATSKNF because of 6th edition casualty rates. You don't worry about rallying because your're dead.

Martel732 wrote:
Dire Avengers have a lot of advantages Space Marines don't that are useful. Space marines have a lot of advantages that don't mean anything any more. Frag grenades, HTH stats, and ATSKNF. I list ATSKNF because of 6th edition casualty rates. You don't worry about rallying because your're dead.

I know, it's just that +1 Toughness, 1+ Armour Save, Chapter Tactics and excelling in shooting rather than close combat needs even more disadvantages to allow only a single point difference in my opinion.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem isn't that SM has free chapter tactics. The problem is that CSM don't have some equivalent.

C:SM is what a codex SHOULD be like. CSM is just ass.

That´s it.

C:SM is ok. The problem is that C:CSM and C:SoB/AS should be balanced accordingly. In the case of CSM it is a "Codex Creep" problem, albeit a really big one. The SoB situation is darker: the Codex is brand new, yet it lacks lots of things.

One of the biggest problems in this game is the total lack of balance between the factions. It causes frictions among the players and loses to GW when people shelves their armies. And it is clearly intentional. Either we have fanboys writing the Codexes or they are really short-sighted.

Wait, in what world are Tac marines are overcosted?

Ignoring the kick in the ass CSM got being 1pt cheaper than their far superior loyalist brethren lets look at a unit often considered very good in the same price range, the Dire Avenger.

For a single point cheaper than a new age tac marine you get a superior (if shorter ranged) firearm, battle focus, fleet, counter attack and +1 initiative...
And the downside, what does the DA lose out on:
Immunity to sweeping advance and fear, auto regroups, -1 Toughness, -1 Save, -1 Strength, Krak grenades, no access to special/heavy weapons, limited sarg upgrades, no chapter tactics, no deep strike options.

That's a lot to lose for a single point.

There's slightly more of a case to be made for the older marine flavours where they are still paying the old rates for troops (Personally I'd rather see all the weirdo chapters in a single separate book with their own chapter tactics that serves as a C:SM supplement but that's another argument) but the Tac marine is good value for his points in the new codex. People are raving about bikes in the new dex but this is in the environment where so many people are complaining about high strength low AP weapons rendering their saves irrelevant but the answer seems to be to pay more points per model...

T4 3+ ATSKNF is still a solid troop choice.

Tactical marines are overpriced in a world where you can take bike troops or just play Tau/Eldar/Daemons. Comparing overpriced and underperforming units (tactical marines) to even more overpriced units that aren't even fielded (CSM) doesn't really prove anything. I'm sure CSM are a great bargain for their points, just compare them to spending points on Flayed Ones or Mandrakes.

Steel is a great material to make knives out of. A steel knife is trusty and sturdy. But it doesn't help when you bring them to a gun fight. Marines aren't that bad, but people saying "Oh marines are fine" when tournament results clearly point to the contrary, and you will never hear anyone who knows what they're doing say "Yeah, C:SM is like one of the top armies, I should switch to C:SM" is just as bad as marine players who whine about how underpowered they are.

Martel732 wrote:
GW should have put said AA options in the codices, not their overpriced quasi-rules.

dont forget that with your overpriced FW crap you need to buy overpriced FW books too! yay

only a couple hundred$ for some FW AA i guess? loll

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not complaining, so much as pointing out that GW should put in viable solutions for all lists in the base books. Many tournaments and play environments are FW free. That means advice revolving around FW is not universally useful.

You are complaining. You're saying "This stuff isn't in my book, it's in a supplement! That's not fair! I want it in MY book!"

Frankly (and saying this as someone with no disposable income who does just fine playing Sisters of Battle with Forge World using models from a brighter time), if you can't afford forge world, you can't afford 40k. The price difference is completely negligible. You just have to have a little damn patience and spend the time waiting for your next paycheck so you can buy FW instead of centurions (or whatever) painting and assembling the stuff you already own.

Its not that C:SM are overpriced, it's that CSM are overpriced. They should be 12 points per model.

That being said, CSM make decent troops when you make them fearless. One good way to do this is to take fabius bile, stick him in one 20 man blob granting the blob fearless, then use his power to make another blob fearless.

Aside from that, your best best with the CSM codex is to go with cult troops. Even in a world of wave serpents, plague marines still are rock solid.

 ansacs wrote:
Just to make sure; you have seen the FAQ for the PFG right? It has to be outside the vehicle to effect the vehicle or any units nearby.

The real problem is that DA landraider build is a nich build that falls apart the second your opponent happens to bring a stormraven, long strike, or necron gauss. There is also the problem that an opponent playing seprent spam or nightscythe spam doesn't have anything to fear from you. May the emperor help you if the opponent plays wraithguard in serpent spam or brought 2 fire dragons in serpents.

Tau should also have not trouble handling this as 2 riptides can just walk up and punch them to death with little to no fear of being seriously hurt.

Daemons can also dismantle him but they need to bring stuff which has become less popular in the internet lists or any MC that can survive massed bolter fire...like a GUO.

I didn't say that DA crusader build isebetter then every other army and that it wins with no need of luck or skill or ally.

It still does a lot better in tournaments then IG . And I yet have to see a demon player be able to take fateweaver and a Guo in the same list . Maybe if someone played higher then 1999pts.

The price difference is completely negligible.

You know that this ain't true . There is a difference between buying some at GW cost -20% and buying something at FW price +luxury tax+20% price for being not EU , while your in EU for years and the weeks of waiting it take for FW to actualy send their stuff to places like Poland . Sure we could all play cast models from Russia or China , which is cheaper by a lot , but then we wouldn't have a place to play . And all of this happens under a HUGE IF that the store owners will say ok to a product they don't sell themselfs and which draw away money from the sales people would be doing at their shops.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not complaining, so much as pointing out that GW should put in viable solutions for all lists in the base books. Many tournaments and play environments are FW free. That means advice revolving around FW is not universally useful.

You are complaining. You're saying "This stuff isn't in my book, it's in a supplement! That's not fair! I want it in MY book!"

Frankly (and saying this as someone with no disposable income who does just fine playing Sisters of Battle with Forge World using models from a brighter time), if you can't afford forge world, you can't afford 40k. The price difference is completely negligible. You just have to have a little damn patience and spend the time waiting for your next paycheck so you can buy FW instead of centurions (or whatever) painting and assembling the stuff you already own.

100% this^

much as i cant write a list that i like for 30k, i plan on doing a full forgeworld deathguard army... i have both of their HH books, my army currently consists of a master of signals+champion and a squad of 5 deathshrouds. guess what, i work part time on minimum wage!!, it took me the better part of 6 months to save up for those bits alone but as i have loads of GW stuff i've gathered over the years i dont care that my army will take ages to buy.

i wonder at the hatred of cost when this is a hobby, surely if you loved the game and couldn't afford the models you would sculpt your own/use something else/etc..... i value something by how long i expect to be using it for, not the cost i pay for it. in fact, the company i work for keeps toting the motto "value is measured in years, not in pounds" and i quite agree


but to the OP, my tacticals do just fine and i dont think they are over (or under-) costed. there are units that are good at taking them down (i would mention the helldrake but with good spacing i've never lost more than 4/5 marines to that thing, even in tournaments - not that scary for its cost really). i do mostly find myself against grey knights/tyranids/orks/blood angels and tau so perhaps i have a different meta but i would love to see the CSM guys get the same treatment as the 30k marines. Basically a watered down version of the new chapter tactics but i think they are a bit more fluffy.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Wait, in what world are Tac marines are overcosted?

Ignoring the kick in the ass CSM got being 1pt cheaper than their far superior loyalist brethren lets look at a unit often considered very good in the same price range, the Dire Avenger.

For a single point cheaper than a new age tac marine you get a superior (if shorter ranged) firearm, battle focus, fleet, counter attack and +1 initiative...
And the downside, what does the DA lose out on:
Immunity to sweeping advance and fear, auto regroups, -1 Toughness, -1 Save, -1 Strength, Krak grenades, no access to special/heavy weapons, limited sarg upgrades, no chapter tactics, no deep strike options.

That's a lot to lose for a single point.

There's slightly more of a case to be made for the older marine flavours where they are still paying the old rates for troops (Personally I'd rather see all the weirdo chapters in a single separate book with their own chapter tactics that serves as a C:SM supplement but that's another argument) but the Tac marine is good value for his points in the new codex. People are raving about bikes in the new dex but this is in the environment where so many people are complaining about high strength low AP weapons rendering their saves irrelevant but the answer seems to be to pay more points per model...

T4 3+ ATSKNF is still a solid troop choice.

Problem is it's not.

T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.

ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.

+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?

Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?

Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!

Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!

3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.

Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Wait, in what world are Tac marines are overcosted?

Ignoring the kick in the ass CSM got being 1pt cheaper than their far superior loyalist brethren lets look at a unit often considered very good in the same price range, the Dire Avenger.

For a single point cheaper than a new age tac marine you get a superior (if shorter ranged) firearm, battle focus, fleet, counter attack and +1 initiative...
And the downside, what does the DA lose out on:
Immunity to sweeping advance and fear, auto regroups, -1 Toughness, -1 Save, -1 Strength, Krak grenades, no access to special/heavy weapons, limited sarg upgrades, no chapter tactics, no deep strike options.

That's a lot to lose for a single point.

There's slightly more of a case to be made for the older marine flavours where they are still paying the old rates for troops (Personally I'd rather see all the weirdo chapters in a single separate book with their own chapter tactics that serves as a C:SM supplement but that's another argument) but the Tac marine is good value for his points in the new codex. People are raving about bikes in the new dex but this is in the environment where so many people are complaining about high strength low AP weapons rendering their saves irrelevant but the answer seems to be to pay more points per model...

T4 3+ ATSKNF is still a solid troop choice.

Problem is it's not.

T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.

ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.

+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?

Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?

Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!

Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!

3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.

Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.

I got ninjaed.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.

Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.

Well you bring out these arguments, that people don't assault because assaults aren't worth it. Wouldn't that be an argument for that those Dire Avengers and Tactical Space Marines should have a clear point difference as Dire Avengers are a close combat unit and Tactical Space Marines excel at ranged combat, and thus are Dire Avengers having a overall harder time?

Though I do agree that there's a lot of weapons which are making it tough for Toughness 4 models as well then it's still better than Toughness 3. The example about Strength 5 weapons making Toughness 4 kind of redundant doesn't make sense. Arguments like "...there's many Strength 5 weapons out there" don't add much to the discussion.

How much better, though? Certainly not as good as in 3rd or 4th edition.

Martel732 wrote:
How much better, though? Certainly not as good as in 3rd or 4th edition.

For Strength 5 weapons: 20% better, as in 20% less are wounded. Given that they all get Armour Saves Tactical Space Marines are 33% better on top of that.

I'm not able and interested in comparing with earlier editions.

Lets cover these one at a time.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Problem is it's not.

T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.
- Except it still means S5 wounds less often than against T3 and that every non-poison races basic weapon wounds less often so when you say worthless what you mean is 16.6% better against S5 or less weapons which I don't count as worthless.

ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
- Except every time you fail a break test and auto rally and don't have to snap shot, which also happens from psi powers and shooting. That's even assuming the fallacy that assault never happens.

+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?
- Guardians, Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Gaunts just a small selection of units a tac marine is capable of beating in melee a selection of which they'd much rather take WS3, S3 AP- hits from rather than be shot by. If the enemy wins, eh, they can't sweep you, they can make no such claim however...

Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?
- Never been tank shocked off an objective clearly, or pinned in combat by a walker, or attacked by an MC...

Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!
- Who pays powerfist prices, can be sniped and gives up his gun for a sword, reducing the units firepower which I thought was all that mattered?.

Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!
- Because by adding a Serpent doubles the cost of the unit rather than adding a rhino or pod at a fraction of the cost. It also still cannot Deep Strike as good as the Serpent is it lacks versatility and comes at a high cost.

3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.
- Guns have always existed that pierce 3+, this is not new. Any well rounded list should carry 3+ piercing because 50%+ of the armies use it. Those Guardians you are worrying about, the ones boltguns kill on a 3+ who can't fire until they get into double tap/assault range, those Guardians?

Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.
- Eldar have to get close, if they are firing those much vaunted Shuriken weapons they are already in assault range. A marine with a boltgun will always get first shot on any catapult user on foot unless you are playing really badly and can't estimate distance.

Being a Marine does not entitle a model to it's armour save. They already shrug off 66% of basic weapon fire but now there's a race that they have a bad matchup against, deal with it, everyone else does. They cost 1pt more than a model with less range, less toughness, worse save and 1pt more than a CSM they are infinitely preferable to.

GW undercut bikes across the board, their costs dropped across the codex board to take advantage of the fact they are £8 a model.

Tac marines are balanced just fine against their infantry opponents.

Edit: Quote ended early.

I buy my forge world stuff from other places, it is overpriced I agree, so is gw. The books are absolutely not overpriced, I buy historical hard back books of the same size and quality and they can be even more expensive, complain about the book prices all you like, but don't say they are overpriced.

And to the fella that said fw is banned at his local and tourneys, so what, it's not here, I don't see your point?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.

Your not shot constantly by STR 5 and greater. Even the 'power armies' bring a lot of lower strength weapons. What do guardians shoot?
This past August at NOVA I ran across fairly few armies that were spamming high strength shots. They do exist, but they are not every army. A higher toughness does help.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.

Seer councils and screamers assault. In fact most of the daemon codex assaults. I'll take ATSKNF any day.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.

Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?

I don't think it's a question of whether tac marine gear helps. Of course it helps. But does it help as much as they are getting charged for it? At least getting shot to death makes me feel better about not having a CC weapon. I still find Grey Hunters to be a golden standard the tac marines fall far short of.

T4 is worthless when the best armies can spam S5 and higher so easily now. There's a reason people bring mostly cultists or Plague Marines.
- Except it still means S5 wounds less often than against T3 and that every non-poison races basic weapon wounds less often so when you say worthless what you mean is 16.6% better against S5 or less weapons which I don't count as worthless.
--Yes, but at the same time S5 and above has the high rate of fire to deal with your expensive troops, so it doesn't matter when they can put out enough shots to deal with you.

ATSKNF despite being good, doesn't help when you die in droves, and nobody assaults.
- Except every time you fail a break test and auto rally and don't have to snap shot, which also happens from psi powers and shooting. That's even assuming the fallacy that assault never happens.
--I suppose, but at the same time I've seen squads utterly annihilated without even getting the chance to run with Tau and Eldar.

+1 strength doesn't matter if you are horrible in Melee anyways, how often do you take Tac Marines to punch things to death?
- Guardians, Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Gaunts just a small selection of units a tac marine is capable of beating in melee a selection of which they'd much rather take WS3, S3 AP- hits from rather than be shot by. If the enemy wins, eh, they can't sweep you, they can make no such claim however...
--Most which you'll never get into combat with good players, if the guardsmen let you get close it's likely an Azreal blob with power weapons



Most Vehicles you aren't even going to glance to death anymore due to getting close, how often do they bring dreadnoughts for you to charge anyways?
- Never been tank shocked off an objective clearly, or pinned in combat by a walker, or attacked by an MC...
Most walkers aren't taken anymore unless its AV13 like Furiso, MC's are all Shooty or Psykers with Iron arm...

Exarch is still far better then the Sarge due to enhancing the unit with options. 5++ Dire Avengers? Sure!
- Who pays powerfist prices, can be sniped and gives up his gun for a sword, reducing the units firepower which I thought was all that mattered?.
You mentioned he was worse then the Sarge, and he still gets a pistol with rending, but I was just mentioning the ways he actually helps the unit

Deep strike options? Why, when you have the Wave Serpent, same with heavy/special. You have a potential 10+ shot's at S6 all twinlinked, that's better than anything the razorback + a heavy squad could do!
- Because by adding a Serpent doubles the cost of the unit rather than adding a rhino or pod at a fraction of the cost. It also still cannot Deep Strike as good as the Serpent is it lacks versatility and comes at a high cost.
And rhino's are easy first blood, it doesn't need versatility as it can deal with an entire squad.

3+ is so good..Except now everyone has everything they need to deal with them, that expensive point value doesn't help when nearly the entire army of Eldar can break your saves with basic Guardians.
- Guns have always existed that pierce 3+, this is not new. Any well rounded list should carry 3+ piercing because 50%+ of the armies use it. Those Guardians you are worrying about, the ones boltguns kill on a 3+ who can't fire until they get into double tap/assault range, those Guardians?
--Yes, and I was stating that they can break your saves with Guardians.

Battlefocus means you'll never even get close to try and assault, making it even harder to do so in the age of Gimped Assault.
- Eldar have to get close, if they are firing those much vaunted Shuriken weapons they are already in assault range. A marine with a boltgun will always get first shot on any catapult user on foot unless you are playing really badly and can't estimate distance.
--Or WS break your vehicle, then breaks down your troops easier, and then the dire avengers just mop up.

Seer councils and screamers assault. In fact most of the daemon codex assaults. I'll take ATSKNF any day.

Fair enough, I havn't dealt with Seer Council Eldar and not many play CD here, and I haven't really pulled mine out since 5th edition.

Its actually quite easy to charge serpents. In the last game I played, I dropped two sternguard squads down and shot up a wraithknight with the poisoned weapon rounds. He blew the pants off 12 of them, then the other 8 assaulted a serpent killing it. During this time, I was able to move my 30 bikes into position to assault 2 other serpents.

Hmm I suppose if you take a bike list, I play CSM so I am not afforded this luxury.

Your not shot constantly by STR 5 and greater. Even the 'power armies' bring a lot of lower strength weapons. What do guardians shoot?
This past August at NOVA I ran across fairly few armies that were spamming high strength shots. They do exist, but they are not every army. A higher toughness does help.

Ton of Tau and Eldar players here, so I'm pretty used to getting shot down.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hmm I suppose if you take a bike list, I play CSM so I am not afforded this luxury.

Don't CSM get 20 point bikes? 30 of them is pretty cheap point wise (not dollar wise). CSM also don't have drop pods -- which are awesome.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Ton of Tau and Eldar players here, so I'm pretty used to getting shot down.

That's a very valid point. Its very meta-dependent.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hmm I suppose if you take a bike list, I play CSM so I am not afforded this luxury.

Don't CSM get 20 point bikes? 30 of them is pretty cheap point wise (not dollar wise). CSM also don't have drop pods -- which are awesome.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Ton of Tau and Eldar players here, so I'm pretty used to getting shot down.

That's a very valid point. Its very meta-dependent.

I do use bikes, problem is when Misfortune is cast on them (With either Tau or Eldar), they'll either dissipate from Markerlight ignored cover, or just a massive amount of shots from Wave Serpants and the rest of the army.

Most of the Eldar here use Jetbikes with Farseer, Prisms, and Wave Serpants, Tau don't use Riptides (mostly due to the cost, ), but they mostly use armies they would've used from 5th, cheaper crisis suits (with one or two farsight lists), and still pathfinders.

I can actually deal with the Tau lists easier then I can Eldar.