Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Holy fething gak are you people really saying tactical marines are better than Eldar troops and Rhinos are better than Wave Serpents?

Well, I'm not. I think tactical marines have a dubious load of wargear that they obviously pay for. Combine that with wound spam-o-rama....

But look; we're derailing a bit. All meqs have various issues right now. CSM are the worst off in most ways, but they do have the plague marine, which is still quite difficult to mow down, even for Eldar. The problem being, of course, is that even plague marines can't take five turn of Tau or Eldar wailing on them. I don't know if they factored chapter tactics to the cost of marines. I somehow doubt it. I don't think any of the tactics are really that great except for White Scars. So yeah, we can point to white scars, in the scheme of things, this only makes them better than DA troops and CSM troops. Chapter tactics is not letting marines get over on Tau/Eldar/Daemons.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Holy ******* **** are you people really saying tactical marines are better than Eldar troops and Rhinos are better than Wave Serpents?

No, we're saying that a tac marine is marginally superior to a Dire Avenger that costs one point less and thus a Tac marine is at about the right price point. A rhino that costs 1/4 of the points of a Serpent being better would be rather broken.

I think Chapter tactics were factored in points wise, a Tac marine with his chapter trick drops nicely into the elite infantry price range at a level that is competitive with his peers. The problem lies in how cheap bikers were made and the way Grav guns were made to work (ie far superior on bikes).
I think tac marines were balanced around the first tactic they came up with and then they just hammered out a few special rules and in GW's own classic way forgot how certain rules interact.
The White Scars tactic by itself isn't that impressive, however it's pretty much assumed that the army is lead by Khan so suddenly they have a far more powerful tactic.

The 16pt flavours are struggling, it's a 20-30pt (because they still get stuck with compulsory vet sarges I believe?) premium per squad of 10 but even they have to count themselves lucky compared to the basic CSM for whom Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF combined are considered a one point upgrade.

The 16pt flavours are struggling, it's a 20-30pt (because they still get stuck with compulsory vet sarges I believe?) premium per squad of 10 but even they have to count themselves lucky compared to the basic CSM for whom Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF combined are considered a one point upgrade.

Don't forget the fact that they are forced to take the Aspiring Champion, and all Characters are forced to challenge.

Even the most salty bale flame victims can admit most of CSM is overpriced or needs work. It's not a good litmus to judge the status of C:SM by.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Holy fething gak are you people really saying tactical marines are better than Eldar troops

Yes. Then again, how many eldar players are spamming dire avengers/guardians on foot?
They are spamming wave serpents, and the troops are a tax on the serpents.

Martel732 wrote:
But look; we're derailing a bit. All meqs have various issues right now. CSM are the worst off in most ways, but they do have the plague marine, which is still quite difficult to mow down, even for Eldar. The problem being, of course, is that even plague marines can't take five turn of Tau or Eldar wailing on them. I don't know if they factored chapter tactics to the cost of marines. I somehow doubt it. I don't think any of the tactics are really that great except for White Scars. So yeah, we can point to white scars, in the scheme of things, this only makes them better than DA troops and CSM troops. Chapter tactics is not letting marines get over on Tau/Eldar/Daemons.

Plague marines are still money. With FNP, they are just as durable (point for point) as grey hunters when getting shot by STR 7 serpent shields, and more durable vs scatter lasers. They do need something that can disrupt the serpents. No army can withstand 6 turns of getting shot at by 6+ serpents unmolested. Some damage must be delivered in return, and 24" guns are not the way to do it.

I like a lot of the traits can be useful if you design your army to use them. A squad of IF dev cents in a bastion with tiggy giving them ignore cover is death incarnate to serpent spam. They ignore cover, reroll armor penetration rolls, split fire, reroll to hits and cannot be hurt by scatter lasers or serpent shields. The only thing that can deal with it are wraithknights, and the imperial player still has lots of points to dedicate to them.

I think you can make a brutal infantry spam list with UM if you take Calgar. Calgar means that you must kill every single model. By combat squadding you have 18 different squads, 12 of which are sporting LCs or MLs.

The only CT I find that's pretty much garbage is raven guard. They can't even scout up assault marines. If they could take assault marines as troops it might be worth salvaging, but until then its just complete and utter garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
The problem lies in how cheap bikers were made and the way Grav guns were made to work (ie far superior on bikes).

Bikes have their own issues. They may be T5, but that's been less effective since the GK codex came out and started spamming psycannons. (note, thats when I actually shelved my bike army)

Bikes have gotten cheaper. 16% per model, and you save the 15 point tax to start the squad. (3 bikes were 90 points and 25 each thereafter). However attack bikes increased by 10 points, so if you want to take that attack bike, its not as good of a deal. So if your taking an attack bike and 5 normal bikes your only really saving 10 points on the squad over the previous codex.

What makes the bike squad good IMHO is that they get the white scars tactics and the grav gun on a relenetless platform.

Hmm seems like I'm almost alone in thinking that Tactical Space Marines should cost 1 or 2 points more, and that's okay - my main argument was a bigger point difference were needed between the Chaos Space Marine and a Tactical Space Marine.
But... Am I only discussing this with Space Marine players? Or do some of you, who argues that their point cost is fair or maybe a bit too high, actually don't play Space Marines?

I would also appreciate to hear your thoughts (in the other thread I linked to) about letting Chaos Space Marines use Chapter Tactics as well, though I actually don't like these kind of house rules.

Here's the link again

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/560697.page#6203158

CSM need something, either a drop in points or a buff. This can be done though a suppliment.

I think CSM should get a mark for free.
I know, before you knee jerk and say that's OP, just how more effective would 60 marines +1 toughness be? Would that +1 toughness be worth the following
- +1 jink save
- +1 strength for HoW
- Hit and Run
- Ignore difficult terrain tests
I actually think that a +1 toughness is right in line. I would argue its better than the Khorne or Slaanesh marks.

 labmouse42 wrote:
CSM need something, either a drop in points or a buff. This can be done though a suppliment.

I think CSM should get a mark for free.
I know, before you knee jerk and say that's OP, just how more effective would 60 marines +1 toughness be? Would that +1 toughness be worth the following
- +1 jink save
- +1 strength for HoW
- Hit and Run
- Ignore difficult terrain tests
I actually think that a +1 toughness is right in line. I would argue its better than the Khorne or Slaanesh marks.

Yes because the only real option is Nurgle, we know this, it's why it's Cultists or Plague Marines or Nurgle marked X (Oblits, bikers, take your pick).

Seeing as Khorne mark got unnecessarily nerfed, Slaanesh is okay but for many units it's just not useful at all.

I agree. They tried to correct that discrepancy by making Nurgle the most expensive, but that still fails. Instead they should have boosted the other traits.

Slaanesh : +1 Init, Fearless
Khorne : Rage, +1 attack
Tzeentch : 5+ Invlun (or +1 to existing)

I would rate those as being equal to a +1 toughness, or the miriad of traits the CM codex got.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I agree. They tried to correct that discrepancy by making Nurgle the most expensive, but that still fails. Instead they should have boosted the other traits.

Slaanesh : +1 Init, Fearless
Khorne : Rage, +1 attack
Tzeentch : 5+ Invlun (or +1 to existing)

I would rate those as being equal to a +1 toughness, or the miriad of traits the CM codex got.

I don't think Fearless would work so well on Slaanesh Mark since it'd be worthless on Noise Marines. Instead it could be.

+1I, and unwieldy can swing normally.

Or simply if that's too much: +1I, Hit & Run, which sounds better because it'd mean your Obliterators and Noise Marines can escape to shoot.

It's slowly derailing here and maybe it's because we all almost agree, but can we keep further discussion about rule wishes in the Proposed rules sections, preferably in the thread I posted there? I'll soon be posting a suggestion to alter the Champion of Chaos rule slightly.

Right now it at least doesn't seem that anybody disagrees to Chaos Space Marines being too expensive. If there's a person (preferably a person who works at GW )who sincerely doesn't agree, then it would be great to hear your thoughts.

labmouse42 wrote:Yes. Then again, how many eldar players are spamming dire avengers/guardians on foot?
They are spamming wave serpents, and the troops are a tax on the serpents.

This is so true. Serpents are the reason people spam dire avengers. Not dire avengers. I would say dire avengers are almost perfectly costed. Now the exarch options are just laughably bad in their costing...what makes them think TLing shots on BS5 is worth 10+ pts?

labmouse42 wrote:The only CT I find that's pretty much garbage is raven guard. They can't even scout up assault marines. If they could take assault marines as troops it might be worth salvaging, but until then its just complete and utter garbage.

I would disagree with this. You can make a really cool and pretty brutal forward scouting list by spamming TAC squads in rhinos. Having 60+ PA bodies in your deployment zone first turn is not something most opponent's want to see. It is even entirely fluffy.

You can do that with Khan. No need to bother with Raven Guard.

 ansacs wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Yes. Then again, how many eldar players are spamming dire avengers/guardians on foot?
They are spamming wave serpents, and the troops are a tax on the serpents.

This is so true. Serpents are the reason people spam dire avengers. Not dire avengers. I would say dire avengers are almost perfectly costed. Now the exarch options are just laughably bad in their costing...what makes them think TLing shots on BS5 is worth 10+ pts?

labmouse42 wrote:The only CT I find that's pretty much garbage is raven guard. They can't even scout up assault marines. If they could take assault marines as troops it might be worth salvaging, but until then its just complete and utter garbage.

I would disagree with this. You can make a really cool and pretty brutal forward scouting list by spamming TAC squads in rhinos. Having 60+ PA bodies in your deployment zone first turn is not something most opponent's want to see. It is even entirely fluffy.

For some reason, forward tac squads does not concern me in the least. Maybe because tac squads are very, very meh.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562151.page#6232720
Check out Reeces new list. It is a nice innovation on what I have been wanting to try.

Khan can do something similar but turn 1 stealth, no required special character, and the ability to scout even without a dedicated transport is an advantage. Khan is not really a great HQ choice in and off himself. He is a bargain but I would rather either do something like Reece with jetpacks and Shrike or take a EW 2+/3++ chapter master to bring the pain and tank shots.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Tacticals are way too cheap. So are Chaos Marines though. One point difference for +1 WS, S, T and I? Let alone 2 points for all that, AND ATSKNF...

Tactical Marines are pretty much garbage these days. Too fragile due to the prevalence of AP3 to be useful, and too expensive to be fielded en masse.

Space Marines have been incredibly devalued in the game because they've become the baseline unit against which everything else is measured, whereas earlier games used the Guardsman as the baseline unit/stat line.

Not that there aren't overcosted units in other armies, but the Space Marine Tacticals would be a hindrance to Marine armies if they were any more expensive.

It's not just the problems with 3+ saves. It's the gear I'm sure they are getting charged for that just doesn't matter. Frag grenades? Krak grenades? Bolt pistol? They aren't efficacious enough in HTH for these things to matter. In fact, krak grenades frequently get marines killed by not allowing them to use "Our wepaons are useless". Also, ATSKNF can be a cruel joke when you WANT your troops to die so you can shoot a victorious enemy assault unit, but can't because you troops DIDN'T DIE. Unfortunately, marines still have to worry about lots of other armies getting to assault, because they can't shell it out in the shooting phase like/move like top lists.

I'm really trying hard to find the redeeming qualities here for the tac marines, but I'm not coming up with much.

Martel732 I am sorry but about 75% of your posts make me think of Marvin from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy;



Check out Reece's batrep. Try a game with a similar list. 60+ SM bodies in your deployment zone turn 1 is not meh. If done right there is very little the opponent can do to actually win the game. When combat squaded even just killing that many SM is a challenge.

Actually now that I think of it an IH version of that would be pretty funny. Like playing whack a mole.

Honestly you need to get out of "Nothing will work" and think of the solution not the problem.

I didn't say nothing would work. I just don't think tac marines are scary enough for this particular scheme to be effective. I feel that even BA can wipe up 60 tac marines in 5 turns. Hell, Mephiston could do 3-4 squads himself if he's in the list. And he kinda sucks now, because he's just a bully. But 60 tac marines are asking to be bullied.

Come to think of it, many of my BA lists DREAM of having 60 tac marines within arms reach.

Yes, I just said something good about BA. That's how bad I think the 60 tac scheme is.

Well if you run Meph then that is a hard counter unit. It is like saying waveserpent suck because IF Devs w/ Tiggy can kill one every turn with trivial effort. Or helldrakes suck because stormravens kill them in a single turn of shooting 50% of the time.

Meph was ridiculously good when he ignored armour saves. Meph is awesome at killing TAC marines in CC.

BTW this discussion is ridiculous as the TAC marine player has no reason to rush up to a BA player. They will fight a retreating gunline fight against most BA lists and kill Meph with their 12 melta shots. The strength of TAC squads is that they can out melee the shooty guys and out shoot the melee guys. BA are better at melee than this list but worse at shooting.

I think my BA could take out 60 tacs no matter what they did. They just don't have enough firepower to command respect.

I'm gaming out how to deal with helldrakes, WS, Taudar, etc. 60 tac marines is a coffee break compared to those lists. Tac marines have manageable fire power and crap HTH skills.

Also, don't tac marines lose to guardsmen on a point by point basis in HTH? Or at 14 points do they finally win?

By the time the 150 pts of IG whitle a 140 pts SM unit down to 0 (which they have to thankyou ATSKNF!) the IG unit has a will fail a morale check even on a Ld10 stubborn. It will also take about 4 game turns to resolve that. (aka I would rather charge a IG blobb with a 5 man TAC squad to tie it up than get shot. If it is a 10 man unit then charge with 10-20 TAC marines and kill them)

I'm not sure the marines will win enough rounds of combat to force enough LD saves, but there will definitely be the tarpit factor. The 60 scouting tac marines is obviously a bigger headache for guard, but I just feel that are too many lists that will just lol at it. Tac marines just don't cause enough damage to be scary.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure the marines will win enough rounds of combat to force enough LD saves, but there will definitely be the tarpit factor. The 60 scouting tac marines is obviously a bigger headache for guard, but I just feel that are too many lists that will just lol at it. Tac marines just don't cause enough damage to be scary.

My current CSM list would laugh because that would be the perfect matchup, 2X blastmasters don't care about tac marines, and have fun trying to bolter down FNP models, while at the same time bikes with plasma, while a Chaos Lord armed with a torrent AP3 flamethrower would deal so easily with it..

If I had actual heldrakes, it'd be even easier.

Perhaps there is some confusion as to the fact that each SM squad in such a list can have 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon. 60 SM + 6 rhinos is only 1080 pts. You have plenty of points to add plasma/melta and MM/ML/LC/PC etc. You can also take up to 3 TFC and 3 LotD!

After fighting Eldar and Tau, that amount of firepower doesn't concern me in the least.

Sounds like someone needs to get stomped by Sisters of Battle... maybe then you'll learn to respect massed bolters, Martel.

Miko, the great thing about that is that it is entirely possible now. Supplemental lessons include fear the mace and terror of the melta.

Using Reecius as a defense for C:SM is not something I would do for a couple of reasons:

1. He's a damn good player. He and Tony Kopach are literally the only two players to top 16 major GTs with 5E C:SM in 6th. That says a lot. Maybe you're as good as they are, but I highly doubt it.
2. Reecius almost always allies SW in his successful lists. I'm sure the RPs and GHs help a lot. Kopach relied on scouts and IG allies to win.
3. If marines were really that good (criminally underpriced, as you people are putting it?), everyone would be playing them and winning tournaments. "But everyone does play them!" Yeah, all the little kids and the guys at your local shops. They see less play than the typical top books and get worse results despite being played more than other books. You don't need to argue that Tau or Eldar or Daemons are strong or underpriced. The proof is there. But marines?