Via BoLS:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36951-Finecast-is-Dead

Latest reports coming in from multiple sources:

Lots going on behind the scenes at GW - Look for a public announcement in Q2 of 2014 regarding Finecast:

-GW Proper gets out of Finecast entirely.
-Forgeworld will take control of all remaining Finecast character models.
-These character models will be the only non-plastics in GW's line until they are replaced.
-These character models will be moved over to plastic (and GW control) in time with plastic clampack resculpts.
-There are internal tests taking place to cast some existing Forgeworld resin kits in a new plastic material.

It looks like the resin material is on its way out, and GW is sprinting as fast as it can to replace any Finecast non character kits from their entire range - leaving them as a 100% plastic manufacturer.

If you look at the past few releases, you can see the pattern.

My next question is WHY?

Maybe Forgeworld are looking at PVC?

A GW's manager explain me that The plastic model are more detailed than finecast /resin model, so they 've in mind to replace it.

One of the few things GW has gotten right the last few years finally.

Finecast was a shambles. A terrible medium with worse QA.

I assume if Forgeworld is taking them over that they will be in proper Polyurethane resin like the rest of FW's products?

Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Just as I said on here back in August... Now wait for all the rumours to start again about GW making themselves more appealing to certain big toy companies (no dangerous metal minis and soon to be no resin, just good old kiddy safe plastic...)

Oh, and do people really think they're doing it because they listened to they're customers?!?

Good.

Maybe the new 'plastic' is the stuff they use for some of the kits, like the Wall of Martyrs which seemed a bit less sharp/soft?

Dwarfus wrote:
A GW's manager explain me that The plastic model are more detailed than finecast /resin model, so they 've in mind to replace it.

You know what this means? Price hike!

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe Forgeworld are looking at PVC?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 AlexHolker wrote:

Dwarfus wrote:
A GW's manager explain me that The plastic model are more detailed than finecast /resin model, so they 've in mind to replace it.

You know what this means? Price hike!

My thoughts exactly..

You know what? I am yet to buy a fine cast model. I need an Emporers champion model though, so I'll have to enter that territory soon.

I'll gladly pay more to get rid of finecast and fw resin for a higher quality plastic kit. It;s about time they got away from these silly materials.

I think that The plastic model are Best for detail

 silent25 wrote:
-There are internal tests taking place to cast some existing Forgeworld resin kits in a new plastic material.

This is kind of worrying. You can't do the same level of detail in plastic that you can do with resin, and I'd hate to see the awesome FW models replaced by plastic kits with the same rules but none of the fine detail that makes FW kits appealing.

Great news if it's true, and kudos to GW for admitting their error and rectifying it (if only tacitly).

I haven't had to buy a Finecast kit yet, so I'd be thrilled to escape the Finecast era unscathed.

Dwarfus wrote:
I think that The plastic model are Best for detail

Not even close. Plastic suffers from technical problems (no undercuts, etc) that limit the level of detail you can get. A well-done resin model (IOW, not finecast) is capable of having much more detail than plastic.

 Peregrine wrote:


This is kind of worrying. You can't do the same level of detail in plastic that you can do with resin, and I'd hate to see the awesome FW models replaced by plastic kits with the same rules but none of the fine detail that makes FW kits appealing.

And no doubt sold at the same, or higher, price.

 Peregrine wrote:

Dwarfus wrote:
I think that The plastic model are Best for detail

Not even close. Plastic suffers from technical problems (no undercuts, etc) that limit the level of detail you can get. A well-done resin model (IOW, not finecast) is capable of having much more detail than plastic.

Dwarfus - plastic has improved vastly over the past decade, and GW's is some of the best. But, it still can't come close to some resin/metal miniatures in terms of detail.

GW dropping FC, while good for the fans who have bemoaned the step-down in production values that have come since its introduction, is another step back from the top in terms of miniature craft.

And.. TBH I don't think a lot of GW/FWs current character line would be possible in plastic, so they will most likely be an approximation. Will be interesting to see how it turns out in any case.

Dwarfus wrote:
I think that The plastic model are Best for detail

No, plastic has technical issues due to the casting method that prevent it from ever reaching the quality of detail that proper resin (not Failcrap), has.

And:

There are internal tests taking place to cast some existing Forgeworld resin kits in a new plastic material.

Who wants to take a bet that GW has "discovered" PVC?

Plastic can't match metal/resin in terms of "detail per cubic inch" but that's not the only expression of detail.

For example, metal versions of the Coven Throne (with it's "outflung" dynamism) or something like a Doomwheel or Drop Pod (with their "hollow" 3D details) would have never been possible in metal.

Then again, I admit that's a bit of a strawman argument, since we're pretty much talking character models in this thread, and I think almost anybody would admit plastic is superior for larger kits.

Altruizine wrote:
Plastic can't match metal/resin in terms of "detail per cubic inch" but that's not the only expression of detail.

It's not about quantity of detail it's about type of detail. For example, the DKoK infantry gas mask hoses: once you clean up the flash there's a visible gap between the hose and the body. But that isn't possible in plastic, you'd have to model the hose as a raised bump on the body with no gap and that isn't going to look as good. Or compare the exhaust bits on the back of a FW LRBT to the plastic LRBT: on the FW kit the round holes are all perfect circles, on the plastic kit only some of them are circles and the rest are ovals because you can't have overhangs in a plastic kit. These small details might not matter to the people who just want to get a decent model on the table as cheaply as possible, but the difference does exist.

Well here is my take one it:

Yes, resin, finecast, metal are all extremely detailed, maybe even more so than plastic.

However think of apple's latest iPhone. It has this new processor that is 3x as fast as the previous iPhone. Now that's all well and good...but was the previous iPhone really all that slow anyway?? Not really.

So same goes for plastic and resin. Yes resin/metal is highly detailed and provides modelling tricks that plastic can't accomplish AS WELL AS resin, however it is still very detailed in it's own right, and it doesn't suffer from as many defects as resin does.

I have bought the odd finecast model, and yes they are superbly detailed and look good once completed, but they require so much work to put together, and dare you break off a sword or even a finger (did this once on a cryptek), it is the single biggest pain in the bum to get back on. Although if you do this with plastic the thing may not snap off but will be eternally screwed, it has a much lesser chance of breaking in the first place, and is way more durable.

Also I am not modelling expert, but to do with the gaps between hoses and capes, etc, couldn't you just mold the head and hose or cape separately to the body so that you can achieve that visible gap? From my modelling experience I think they are more inclined to do this with 40k miniatures rather than fantasy, however the Dark Eldar Archon model has a cape without a gap between the legs.

So in my humble opinion, plastic is the way to go.

My next question is WHY?

Because it's a terrible product introduced as a cheaper alternative to metal while they prepared to go full plastic. Finecast has always had rumours that it was a temporary measure. It's a substandard product at premium rates.

 DrSchwartz wrote:
So same goes for plastic and resin. Yes resin/metal is highly detailed and provides modelling tricks that plastic can't accomplish AS WELL AS resin, however it is still very detailed in it's own right, and it doesn't suffer from as many defects as resin does.

You have a right to have low standards. Some of us, however, don't share them.

I have bought the odd finecast model, and yes they are superbly detailed and look good once completed, they require to much work to put together, and dare you break off a sword or even a finger (did this once on a cryptek), it is the single biggest pain in the bum to get back on. Although if you do this with plastic the thing may not snap off but will be eternally screwed, it has a much lesser chance of snapping and is way more durable.

That's because you're talking about finecast, not resin. Finecast is garbage, it's a terrible material cast by incompetent people and sold with nonexistent quality control. Real resin kits do not have those problems.

As I understand it, from what I was told by "people who know what they're talking about", Finecast was always meant to be a temporary measure anyway.

So will Eldar now be squatted?
Will all new Codices and armybooks only have 2-3 characters as low run models are not supported anymore?

 Kroothawk wrote:
So will Eldar now be squatted?

As long as it brings the Squats back I'm fully behind that

I'm cautiously optimistic about this... if every single finecast model is replaced by a £18 plastic miniature, i shall be petitioning for the return of finecast. But if the cost stays down, I'll be happy.

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Fast?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Fast?

Compared to the time we've been waiting for plastic Sisters, it's fast!
Or to the return of Squats!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Fast?

I dunno, 3 years* is probably fast in GW land.






*Finecrap debuted in 2011 didn't it?

Dwarfus wrote:
A GW's manager explain me that The plastic model are more detailed than finecast /resin model, so they 've in mind to replace it.

You realize the manager was lying to you right? Metal and finecast(when it worked) always had more detail then plastic did. Plastic gave you more options, the others gave you better detail.

I'd hazard it cost them more money in replacements with the finecast rollout. They seemed to change their replacement policy- including asking customers to return model and asking them to fix it first, under finecast. All those models and shipping costs add up over time.

So, someone help me wrap me head around this. If a plastic Space Marine clampack character is now priced at US$30, what would a plastic character in a less popular range cost? Plastics have a more expensive production cost, so they need to sell more/have a longer production run to recoup the investment.

Does this mean we'll see things like plastic Dark Eldar Archon sculpts in production for 20 years or will their characters cost US$50? Or does the current US$30 pricepoint take this sales volume of less popular lines into account, making SM players carry the burden for a larger line of plastic characters?

Lots of implications. But, no worries coz MOAR PLASTICS!!!!!!!1!!!!one!! amirite?

I dunno. Plastic is all good & well for most infantry, support units etc. but when talking about characters - who have to stand out sculptwise - the fact is that most of the plastic character sculpts are huge meh compared to their metal/Finecast predecessors. Well, if they continue to be available from Forgeworld, then it's okay I guess.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

My next question is WHY?

Because it's a terrible product introduced as a cheaper alternative to metal while they prepared to go full plastic. Finecast has always had rumours that it was a temporary measure. It's a substandard product at premium rates.

Absolutely true. Fc was a stopgap that let them use resin in existing molds. If it had worked well, it might have gone on longer. GW wants to use plastic because they make the most money on plastic.

Well, being the rebellious sort, I actually really like finecast. I didn't mind the cost of the "fragility" of it, it was a darn sit easier to use and glue together than metal. At least in finecast you can glue models like sanginor, or Asteroth with any much problems, and certainly the old vanguard vets were easier to build in finecast. But those are only my views from what I have done and used for them. Also, you can add plastic to resin with more ease than plastic to metal.

Well, i am not impressed with the current plastic space marine character releases, i hope they will improve

Well, ding dong and all of that.

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Agreed, but they're likely just responding to their bottom line. There's no way finecast models have sold as well as they expected, with all the quality issues, bad press, and resulting unpopularity with gamers.

I just bought my first Finecast blister last month in I don't know how long... after not buying any since just after it's release! If even a small fraction of gamers behaved similarly "voting with their wallets", then GW's hand was forced simply from a profitability perspective.

I love how people are attributing this move to GW trying to please the customer base. I guess you all missed the rumors when Finecadt came out about it only being a stop-gap measure.

 Mick A wrote:
Just as I said on here back in August... Now wait for all the rumours to start again about GW making themselves more appealing to certain big toy companies (no dangerous metal minis and soon to be no resin, just good old kiddy safe plastic...)

Oh, and do people really think they're doing it because they listened to they're customers?!?

Bingo! GW is getting a boob job and a facelift so Hasbro will it. My money is that GW's recent behavior over the past year has been motivated by buyout negotiations. GW is pushing out all of the backlog of extant stock it can and throwing around video game licenses to keep its revenue looking okay, and has been implementing lots of a-typical changes that could very well be smoothing over dealbreakers or be indicative of changes being actively implemented by the buyer in anticipation of a completed deal.

In this context Gill Stevenson leaving could certainly have been motivated by an effort to appease concerns about the Chapterhouse litigation, which I don't think would scare off a buyer, but a big corporate buyer would absolutely demand indemnification and reduce the price by the amount of potential exposure, which is in the 7 figures, so not a small amount.

We'll have to wait and see, but I think the 8-ball is definitely showing "signs point to yes."

I'm still of the mind that the claims of GW trying to get a buyout are still too far out there. Much less a British company selling themselves to an American toy company.

I'm chalking that up to wishful thinking of a higher degree than that of a plastic Thunderhawk.

Interesting.

This goes in line with a lot of what Ive been hearing.

GW is relaunching its new website in 2014 and all GW stores will have access to forgeworld at their GW stores, and be apart of the GW website.

FW is changing all its resin to something cheaper (unknown if finecast)

If this is true that means you either are going to pay through the teeth for shipping or you are forced to go to a GW store. Regardless gak is gonna get expensive.

So if they are pulling finecast, what is going to happen to fairly recent releases like commander farsight - I can't really picture him in plastic.

I like finecast so I'll be a bit sad to see it phased out. It has been incredibly easy to work with.

From my local GW store, the manager said you'll be able o get the FW stuff, but they will still be charging shipping. He wasn't too pleased about it as well .

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm still of the mind that the claims of GW trying to get a buyout are still too far out there. Much less a British company selling themselves to an American toy company.

I'm chalking that up to wishful thinking of a higher degree than that of a plastic Thunderhawk.

I don't think many would call it "wishful thinking." I suspect that folks who actually like Games Workshop do not want to see it bought out by a big corporation, and the folks who don't like GW could give a crap who owned the company's assets.

You can't measure much in terms of actual behavior against the release of a plastic Thunderhawk, though there is some evidence in the release of big, splashy kits and whatnot. When it comes to rumors of a buyout there's plenty of evidence out there that lends credence to rumors. It is not simply a matter of rumors, though there are plenty of those and from decent sources regarding a buyout.

It is fair to say that at this point a buyout is still very speculative, but I think it is naive to call it "wishful thinking." Evidence that would support such an inference is out there and there is a lot of it. Such evidence however points to several different just as likely conclusions, in my opinion, making it speculative. It would be "wishful thinking" if there was no evidence to support the inference and/or lots of evidence that directly contradicts it, of which I have seen none.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

My next question is WHY?

Because it's a terrible product introduced as a cheaper alternative to metal while they prepared to go full plastic. Finecast has always had rumours that it was a temporary measure. It's a substandard product at premium rates.

This sums up finecast:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm still of the mind that the claims of GW trying to get a buyout are still too far out there. Much less a British company selling themselves to an American toy company.

I'm chalking that up to wishful thinking of a higher degree than that of a plastic Thunderhawk.

You realise there are a lot of british companies, including toy companies, that are owned by us based companies (amid others) right?

FC needs to go. I just got some FC incubi from a guy the other day. I didn't like the paintjob so I set about some research in stripping the models. Most people said Bluewolf cleaner or Brake Fluid worked good. The bluewolf barely took any paint off. The brake fluid took all the paint off by warped and made the models brittle. For reasons like this FC models have hardly any resell value and I have no intentions of getting anymore.

weeble1000 wrote:
I don't think many would call it "wishful thinking." I suspect that folks who actually like Games Workshop do not want to see it bought out by a big corporation, and the folks who don't like GW could give a crap who owned the company's assets.

Oh, it is wishful thinking. GW's biggest problems are caused by their incompetent management and lazy unprofessional game designers. Selling the IP to WOTC (or someone similar) and purging the entire management and game design staff would improve the games significantly in the long run. It's just unfortunate that GW seems to be able to keep their profits up for a while longer and any hypothetical sale won't come until after GW has done even more damage to their games.

All finecast going to forgeworld?Looks at hobbit charactersEAR TOLKIEN NO,I CANT PAY THOSE BISTERDS PRICES AND HOW WILL THIS GAME GET SALES/NEW PLAYERS WHEN HALF THE STUFF ISNT EVEN INSTORES!(Begins LOTR sbg rebellion.)Also:Won't this Hasbro theaory DESTROY the few LOTR sales since EVERY single non movie warrior box is metal/Failcast and has NO chance of being profitable enough to justify plastic.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

My next question is WHY?

Because it's a terrible product introduced as a cheaper alternative to metal while they prepared to go full plastic. Finecast has always had rumours that it was a temporary measure. It's a substandard product at premium rates.

Absolutely true. Fc was a stopgap that let them use resin in existing molds. If it had worked well, it might have gone on longer. GW wants to use plastic because they make the most money on plastic.

Mostly because plastic pellets cost a couple cents by the pound.

GWs biggest mistake was mentioning that finecast resin was 1/10th the cost of pewter back when they switched, then mentioned plastic is much cheaper then that. So plastic kits going at pewter costs is gouging in its purest form.

weeble1000 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm still of the mind that the claims of GW trying to get a buyout are still too far out there. Much less a British company selling themselves to an American toy company.

I'm chalking that up to wishful thinking of a higher degree than that of a plastic Thunderhawk.

I don't think many would call it "wishful thinking." I suspect that folks who actually like Games Workshop do not want to see it bought out by a big corporation, and the folks who don't like GW could give a crap who owned the company's assets.

You can't measure much in terms of actual behavior against the release of a plastic Thunderhawk, though there is some evidence in the release of big, splashy kits and whatnot. When it comes to rumors of a buyout there's plenty of evidence out there that lends credence to rumors. It is not simply a matter of rumors, though there are plenty of those and from decent sources regarding a buyout.

It is fair to say that at this point a buyout is still very speculative, but I think it is naive to call it "wishful thinking." Evidence that would support such an inference is out there and there is a lot of it. Such evidence however points to several different just as likely conclusions, in my opinion, making it speculative. It would be "wishful thinking" if there was no evidence to support the inference and/or lots of evidence that directly contradicts it, of which I have seen none.

You haven't seen the threads I have which contain posts like "I hope GW gets bought out by Hasbro/Lego/WotC/ect". It's wishful thinking by a number of people that's bleeding over to everyone else.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DrSchwartz wrote:
So same goes for plastic and resin. Yes resin/metal is highly detailed and provides modelling tricks that plastic can't accomplish AS WELL AS resin, however it is still very detailed in it's own right, and it doesn't suffer from as many defects as resin does.

You have a right to have low standards. Some of us, however, don't share them.

I have bought the odd finecast model, and yes they are superbly detailed and look good once completed, they require to much work to put together, and dare you break off a sword or even a finger (did this once on a cryptek), it is the single biggest pain in the bum to get back on. Although if you do this with plastic the thing may not snap off but will be eternally screwed, it has a much lesser chance of snapping and is way more durable.

That's because you're talking about finecast, not resin. Finecast is garbage, it's a terrible material cast by incompetent people and sold with nonexistent quality control. Real resin kits do not have those problems.

1) Plastic is not low standards. Yes it's detail is inferior to some other compounds however it is still very detailed, and I am not trying to press my opinions on anyone.

2) Well yes of course I am talking about finecast here, as this is the matter of the topic.

 DrSchwartz wrote:
1) Plastic is not low standards. Yes it's detail is inferior to some other compounds however it is still very detailed, and I am not trying to press my opinions on anyone.

Like I said, low standards. Plastic may be adequate for basic troops or if you don't care too much about painting, but resin indisputably allows a better and more detailed model. If GW moves everything to plastic there will be sacrifices in quality. And the fact that you're content with the "adequate" plastic kits says way more about your standards than about the quality of the models.

2) Well yes of course I am talking about finecast here, as this is the matter of the topic.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that plastic is the answer. Finecast is garbage, but the solution is proper resin casting, not moving all those models over to plastic and throwing away quality.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm still of the mind that the claims of GW trying to get a buyout are still too far out there. Much less a British company selling themselves to an American toy company.

I'm chalking that up to wishful thinking of a higher degree than that of a plastic Thunderhawk.

I don't think many would call it "wishful thinking." I suspect that folks who actually like Games Workshop do not want to see it bought out by a big corporation, and the folks who don't like GW could give a crap who owned the company's assets.

You can't measure much in terms of actual behavior against the release of a plastic Thunderhawk, though there is some evidence in the release of big, splashy kits and whatnot. When it comes to rumors of a buyout there's plenty of evidence out there that lends credence to rumors. It is not simply a matter of rumors, though there are plenty of those and from decent sources regarding a buyout.

It is fair to say that at this point a buyout is still very speculative, but I think it is naive to call it "wishful thinking." Evidence that would support such an inference is out there and there is a lot of it. Such evidence however points to several different just as likely conclusions, in my opinion, making it speculative. It would be "wishful thinking" if there was no evidence to support the inference and/or lots of evidence that directly contradicts it, of which I have seen none.

You haven't seen the threads I have which contain posts like "I hope GW gets bought out by Hasbro/Lego/WotC/ect". It's wishful thinking by a number of people that's bleeding over to everyone else.

Wanting something to happen does not mean that predicting it is wishful thinking. I wish I had a billion dollars. I do not expect a billion dollars to materialize in my lap, and if it did, I like to think that I would be incredibly skeptical about it and assume that I might be suffering from sort of adult onset schizophrenia. I wish I did not feel hungry. I predict that as I am now eating lunch I will not feel hungry in half an hour. I wish that I get a good bonus this year. I predict that I will get a good bonus because I have worked hard this year, met goals, billed more hours over last year, and have received compliments from my employer. Wanting something to happen might bias one towards thinking it will happen, but that does not make deductive reasoning impossible.

For example, I think GW is getting bought out. If GW is getting bought out, I think it would probably be Hasbro. This does not mean I cannot say that such thinking is speculative. It is. But it is not wishful in the sense that a buyout is one possible scenario that seems to fit with the available data. I have not seen any evidence that suggests a buyout is an unreasonable inference to make. The fact that some folks wish a buyout was in the works is not evidence that contradicts the existence of a buyout.

Do you know something that makes inferring the existence of a buyout unreasonable? If you do I'd love to know. Until I see some I will continue to think that amongst the possible scenarios that fit available information, a buyout is the most likely. This particular opinion, that a buyout is the most likely scenario, is certainly the product of personal bias. I'd like to see a buyout happen, but that does not prevent me from A) recognizing that bias and B) thinking critically.

 the_Armyman wrote:
So, someone help me wrap me head around this. If a plastic Space Marine clampack character is now priced at US$30, what would a plastic character in a less popular range cost?

$20, going by the plastic Shadowblade and Fleet Admiral for Dark Elves.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
So will Eldar now be squatted?

As long as it brings the Squats back I'm fully behind that

LMAO!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dang it! I was about to chance it and buy the tech-marine with the Thunderfire Cannon... Guess I'll wait for a plastic kit... what, maybe 10 years?

 gossipmeng wrote:
So if they are pulling finecast, what is going to happen to fairly recent releases like commander farsight - I can't really picture him in plastic.

I like finecast so I'll be a bit sad to see it phased out. It has been incredibly easy to work with.

There were rumours of a new XV8 sprue that would have included Farsight/Generic Commander parts in the box.

I really hope that this means that we get more HQ 'multibuild packs' in plastic.
Like the SM commander, Empire Wizards, High Elf Lord, Orc Warboss/banner, CSM termie Lord etc.
I'd be happy to spend £30-£50 on a set that included 3 to 5 Captain, Wizard, Hero, Pysker multibuild models for the same army.

Being able to buy all of the HQ options for an army, 'in a handy in-store box', is a very GW kind of thing to do.
A cheeky add on to the 'Well what you need is core box/rules, battleforce, paints aaaaaand this cool extra £40 box gives you all the leaders with the cool rules for your army'.

Hopefuly there would be loads of great bits in the box and if I needed to buy a second box then the spares would go on ebay or be made into a Vet squad/sergeants/captains etc.
I dunno, just a thought but I think that it's possibly a viable way to do all HQs in plastic with re-cuts for existing armies and minimal new sprues?

Edited to insert GW bash:
Chances are that they'll just release more clamshells with awful weapon loadouts and no weapon options.
These great new kits are in very 'dynamic' (hard to disguise the sillouette with conversions)poses.
That's more like it!

You stlill end up paing premium price for an average product.

Well there you have it folks, if fw dies go plastic you'll get your plastic TH. It'll just have less detail and probably cost even more.

I think it signifies that GW in the main really are a toy company now and not making the world's finest miniatures, at least on general sale. Plastic is good, but resin and metal produces higher quality for character figures. If you think plastic has greater potential for high quality detail you are wrong, also plastic still has limitations such as the undercut on pieces afforded by the mould design. Plastic is great for rank and file troops, but not so much for characters who serve as centrepieces for the army and tend to be valued by painters and collectors for their superior casting.

GW are pushing all their product that specifically requires adult skill, all their non-plastic, towards Forgeworld, who only cater for serious modellers not kids. GW stores will be fully plastic, meaning they can sell everything regardless of age or ability. It makes them more accessible to newcomers and the inexperienced, their target market with GW stores. They are a high turnover toy shop, not the worlds finest miniatures manufacturer.

It won't improve prices. Plastic moulds aren't cheap and character figures won't sell in huge volume. Also there's little incentive for GW to reduce prices because they only expect most customers to last a year or so. Also they said long ago that customers are now prepared to pay metal prices for plastic figures which is why they have taken to reducing figures in a box and increasing their price.

I'm not 100% sure that I agree with all of that statement Howard.
Some of the plastic kits are so fiddly and complicated with so many options compared to the older metal/finecast versions.
Those were far more simple and user friendly.
Every time I open one of their new kit i'm boggled for about 1/2 an hour by the sprue layout and multitude of bits but maybe that's just because I care about doing a decent job?

Think this bit is 100% correct though!

I think it signifies that GW in the main really are a toy company now and not making the world's finest miniatures, at least on general sale. Plastic is good, but resin and metal produces higher quality for character figures. If you think plastic has greater potential for high quality detail you are wrong, also plastic still has limitations such as the undercut on pieces afforded by the mould design. Plastic is great for rank and file troops, but not so much for characters who serve as centrepieces for the army and tend to be valued by painters and collectors for their superior casting.

Agreed.
Although there was always something a bit off about including a beautifuly detailed FW, AOW or even GW figure in a unit of very bland rank and file troops.
The additional level of detail really accentuates how plain the other models are.
Now that GW's plastics are generally up to scratch a drop in character model quality could make armies hang better and look more cohesive.

I only bring this up as GW are really in the business of selling armies rather than single miniatures these days.

I think it is easy to see why they are going this route for three reasons:

1.) Reason to have gamers replace 'older' finecast or metal models with plastic kits. Think about all the Eldar Aspect Warriors as an example.

2.) Very low cost of production versus price.

3.) Ability to raise price. Look at plastic SM Librarian at $30 US versus FC one at $16.00. Plastic costs about a third of what resin costs yet sells for almost twice what the plastic one does.

As for the steel mold investment, this is basically null now with the volume GW does in 40k in general. This move is plain and simple about increasing sales (by selling new versions of existing models) and improving profits.

Also, just a correction, GW did not saying they are going ALL plastics. They said they are doing it for "non-character" models. Generic characters (ala SM Commander, Captain and Librarian) will be plastic but it appears Special Characters will be Finecast (or maybe move to ForgeWorld).

It will be interesting to see how the Eldar fare. Most of their entire infantry size models are Finecast. Wave Serpents are not readily available and nearly every HQ choice are also Finecast.

And as the final light of the last Spirit Stone dimmed for eternity the Eldar were no more.

Fixed.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I really hope that this means that we get more HQ 'multibuild packs' in plastic.
Like the SM commander, Empire Wizards, High Elf Lord, Orc Warboss/banner, CSM termie Lord etc.
I'd be happy to spend £30-£50 on a set that included 3 to 5 Captain, Wizard, Hero, Pysker multibuild models for the same army.

Being able to buy all of the HQ options for an army, 'in a handy in-store box', is a very GW kind of thing to do.

Definitely sounds like a possible GW thing - justifying a high price by adding alternative bits. Dunno which would be faster for GW's production, though - multiple single-pose models or multi-part kits. Or maybe they are producing single-pose models first, then when the hype dies they start churning out 'new and improved' multipart kits. They have a funny way of making business decisions, so it's kinda hard to predict

 gorgon wrote:
Well, ding dong and all of that.

Spoiler:

There goes my coffee.

Can't say I didn't see any of this coming.

How long until there will be "snap-fit" GW kits so you don't need glue and coloured plastic GW kits so no more paint? ... Then it's not so far until they are pose-able with things that shoot out from springs and the like.

As for people saying that GW should cast with resin properly, well it's not like they really listen to their customers? All they have seen is a drop in profits from it, so rather than fix the problem and learn, they ditch the whole thing. Just another example of the childish, short minded "Now!" culture that rules business and increasingly politics these days.

^ Prepaints from GW would be an excellent idea.

No need to paint the figures means that you can comfortably buy more figures, the amount you can buy is not longer limited by the amount of time you have to paint them.

No idea why they haven't done it already as an alternative or supplement to their existing range. Just a few basic troop choices, maybe a small starter set (game-ready hq and 2 troops) in prepaint format could go a long way.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I'm not 100% sure that I agree with all of that statement Howard.
Some of the plastic kits are so fiddly and complicated with so many options compared to the older metal/finecast versions.
Those were far more simple and user friendly.
Every time I open one of their new kit i'm boggled for about 1/2 an hour by the sprue layout and multitude of bits but maybe that's just because I care about doing a decent job?

Something very interesting to note as well is that they are starting to design(and price) kits with things like magnetizing in mind. The new Dark Rider/Doomfire Warlock kit is a great example of this.

For those who have not gotten to see the kit in person, I'll explain and use this image to help:

The horses have the legs of the riders attached, along with the lower torso of the rider. Do you see the metallic kind of 'corset'? That is the terminus for what is the horses have attached.
The Dark Riders and Warlocks both have the upper torsos attaching to that point and the inside of their torso is actually a hollow space perfectly sized for a magnet or pin of some kind. The arms of the riders as well do not ever actually need to be hard attached to the reins, as the reins are attached to the horse barring the bit that the one arm is actually holding.

If I were someone who actually wanted to field Doomfire Warlocks instead of Dark Riders, I would just need a few well placed magnets and I would be set.

I think it signifies that GW in the main really are a toy company now and not making the world's finest miniatures, at least on general sale. Plastic is good, but resin and metal produces higher quality for character figures. If you think plastic has greater potential for high quality detail you are wrong, also plastic still has limitations such as the undercut on pieces afforded by the mould design. Plastic is great for rank and file troops, but not so much for characters who serve as centrepieces for the army and tend to be valued by painters and collectors for their superior casting.

I disagree; whilst the actual sculpts of some of the recent plastic miniatures may be a bit goofy looking, all of them are technically superb, becoming more and more detailed in each release. The Chaos Space Marines in DV do not look like toys.

No-one complained about the crappy low detail models in Space Hulk 3rd Ed.

Someone should really tell Adam Poots about how terrible the quality of plastic is before be moves forward with Kingdom Death in hard plastic.

I think almost all of these threads are laughable, it's as though moaning is the pastime of choice

I prefer finecast to metal, I also remember the very first Citadel plastic figure (three orks in a blister, I made one with four arms after seeing an example in White Dwarf) and the new plastics are really good quality. The figures are pricey but I earn enough so don't really care...I think I may have to stop reading Dakka though and just look at the pictures from now on, every thread is either moaning or a flamewar

The new plastic kits, such as the Sternguard, etc. look fantastic. No issues with quality detail there, IMO. I have forge world resin and mostly plastic converted characters sitting right next to each other, and the plastic ones certainly do not look like toys next to the resin figures. Some look a lot better. This thread is hilarious.

If GW uses this opportunity to actually drop their prices, I'll eat my laptop.

 cincydooley wrote:
Someone should really tell Adam Poots about how terrible the quality of plastic is before be moves forward with Kingdom Death in hard plastic.

I don't think anyone is saying plastic is 'terrible' Cincydooley, just that at the high end of detail/intricacy, it still falls short of what is obtainable through resin/metal.

If GW uses this opportunity to actually drop their prices, I'll eat my laptop.

I think it's a safe assumption to make that your laptop will remain un-eaten.

 MetalOxide wrote:

I disagree; whilst the actual sculpts of some of the recent plastic miniatures may be a bit goofy looking, all of them are technically superb, becoming more and more detailed in each release. The Chaos Space Marines in DV do not look like toys.

They have a lot of detail, but not all of it is good detail. And DV Space Marine characters (Company Master, Libby and Seraphicus) sure don't look special compared to equivalent metal/FC characters. Ditto for new plastic Space marine characters.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
No-one complained about the crappy low detail models in Space Hulk 3rd Ed.

Allow me; There is detail missing from nearly every terminator on the sprue. There are fine details that are 'muddy' or non existent on each model. Especially noticeable on the crux terminatus on the shoulder pads. While these are, IMO, the best looking terminators released to date, I feel that they would be much better cast in Metal or Forgeworld resin.

Games Workshop has a recent history of turning their backs on their loyal fan base to cater to fly by night interest in the hobby. It sickens me that so many people praise finecast as a decent alternative to metal or forgeworld resin. Finecast models just feel like a cheap imitation. It seems like chinese bootleg material. Not something that people of the Legendary Island Nation should be proud of producing.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
No-one complained about the crappy low detail models in Space Hulk 3rd Ed.

Allow me; There is detail missing from nearly every terminator on the sprue. There are fine details that are 'muddy' or non existent on each model. Especially noticeable on the crux terminatus on the shoulder pads. While these are, IMO, the best looking terminators released to date, I feel that they would be much better cast in Metal or Forgeworld resin.

Agreed. I really liked the Space Hulk terminators so much so that my deathwing army is almost entirely made up of them.



They're excellent PLASTIC kits... but they could have been more detailed on a per model basis if they had been multipart metal or resin. Despite them having some excellent detail on the parts you commonly see, they also have bland blobby undercuts on parts you don't often look at (like leg calves) which would never be there if they had been sculpted and produced in another medium. The space hulk terminators are excellently designed single posed plastic sprues that avoid most of the problems associated with plastics and hides fairly well the remaining unavoidable ones. Despite that praise, they still would have looked better sculpted in metal using traditional molds but they also never would have sold the set for $100.

Glad to see Finecast out the door.

Plastic is fine for most things.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Finecast models just feel like a cheap imitation. It seems like chinese bootleg material. Not something that people of the Legendary Island Nation should be proud of producing.

Especially when the Chinese bootleg kits are cast better than the GW Finecast and Forge World kits...

GW producing kits in resin (rather than metal) opened the floodgates for Chinese recasters.

T

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If GW uses this opportunity to actually drop their prices, I'll eat my laptop.

pretty sure that when those demon releases last year went from finecast to plastic, they went down in price. But then those new space marine plastic charecters went up in price. So it's anyone's guess.

weeble1000 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm still of the mind that the claims of GW trying to get a buyout are still too far out there. Much less a British company selling themselves to an American toy company.

I'm chalking that up to wishful thinking of a higher degree than that of a plastic Thunderhawk.

I don't think many would call it "wishful thinking." I suspect that folks who actually like Games Workshop do not want to see it bought out by a big corporation, and the folks who don't like GW could give a crap who owned the company's assets.

You can't measure much in terms of actual behavior against the release of a plastic Thunderhawk, though there is some evidence in the release of big, splashy kits and whatnot. When it comes to rumors of a buyout there's plenty of evidence out there that lends credence to rumors. It is not simply a matter of rumors, though there are plenty of those and from decent sources regarding a buyout.

It is fair to say that at this point a buyout is still very speculative, but I think it is naive to call it "wishful thinking." Evidence that would support such an inference is out there and there is a lot of it. Such evidence however points to several different just as likely conclusions, in my opinion, making it speculative. It would be "wishful thinking" if there was no evidence to support the inference and/or lots of evidence that directly contradicts it, of which I have seen none.

You haven't seen the threads I have which contain posts like "I hope GW gets bought out by Hasbro/Lego/WotC/ect". It's wishful thinking by a number of people that's bleeding over to everyone else.

Wanting something to happen does not mean that predicting it is wishful thinking. I wish I had a billion dollars. I do not expect a billion dollars to materialize in my lap, and if it did, I like to think that I would be incredibly skeptical about it and assume that I might be suffering from sort of adult onset schizophrenia. I wish I did not feel hungry. I predict that as I am now eating lunch I will not feel hungry in half an hour. I wish that I get a good bonus this year. I predict that I will get a good bonus because I have worked hard this year, met goals, billed more hours over last year, and have received compliments from my employer. Wanting something to happen might bias one towards thinking it will happen, but that does not make deductive reasoning impossible.

For example, I think GW is getting bought out. If GW is getting bought out, I think it would probably be Hasbro. This does not mean I cannot say that such thinking is speculative. It is. But it is not wishful in the sense that a buyout is one possible scenario that seems to fit with the available data. I have not seen any evidence that suggests a buyout is an unreasonable inference to make. The fact that some folks wish a buyout was in the works is not evidence that contradicts the existence of a buyout.

Do you know something that makes inferring the existence of a buyout unreasonable? If you do I'd love to know. Until I see some I will continue to think that amongst the possible scenarios that fit available information, a buyout is the most likely. This particular opinion, that a buyout is the most likely scenario, is certainly the product of personal bias. I'd like to see a buyout happen, but that does not prevent me from A) recognizing that bias and B) thinking critically.

However if the picture is all doom and gloom why would Hasbro buy it out? Also I notice its primarily the american members of Dakka who are always saying buyouts are happening.

GW is a UK PLC company and as such there are differing rules that apply. Also as its a PLC it wouldnt be Gw's decision but the shareholders.

I think if it ever did happen we would see the demise of GW as we know it regardless of the company. I wouldn't be surprised is the assests were liquidised for cash and then use the background to licence out for more small cost quick profit ventures.

You have to ask yourself, why would Hasbro want to by GW, what would it gain, and would GW be the same? would they invest the money into the company?

I have to dissagree with no undercuts in plastic - though your no longer using 2 part molds anymore if you want that option - there are plenty of great examples in military model kits of complex upper and lower tank hulls in 1 piece - This of couse comes at a cost - and I for one am not sure I want to see the additional cost of that on already overprised (IMHO) GW kits

anyway, specialy for fantasy and it's horde units you will hardly notice all those superfine details. They only stand out on small units and heroes / characters - and even then only up close

Then again, give it an other couple of years and everyone will probably be printing their units and GW will sell you the files in the applestore that allow you to print X models with X gear for 5 times wat they charge now for injected plastic

I think most of you are missing the point. It is not whether you like or dislike Finecast and/or metal.

If GW really discontinues Finecast and metal, look at this page to see what happens:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440271a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
Currently 41 different products, 4 of them plastic. Do you really think that GW will release 37 SM plastic kits to compensate the loss of Finecast and metal miniatures? Now have a look at Adepta Sororitas ...

GW plans the mother of all power-shrinking, reducing the product range by 50-70% with just 2-3 HQ choices per army left, almost none of them characters. Only chance that new plastic HQs will sell in enough numbers to make it economic.

A dream for bean counters, a nightmare for us. Enjoy the grim future of our hhhobby.

Anyway, here some quotes from faeit212:

Tim over at Faeit 212 wrote:GW plans his free capacities (through the end of Metal and Finecast) fill with the production of FW-Models.
At the moment FW do not plans with Plastic.

Anonymous source over at Faeit 212 wrote:To cut to the point the finecast changes that so many discusses and brings questions if the displeasure amongst some is the reason. It was just a middle ground for plans for indeed the prices in metal have gone up. some might not see it when comparing companies but the production amount GW have is enormous.

The changes however was well planned but... the mixture to make the material and the production didn't go in their favor. The molding process wasn't perfect, it worked, but not perfect.Tests was made all the time even if people don't believe it.

I hope it sheds some light into the discussion. That it wasn't a complete solution but the stepping stone.

Oh, and Space Hulk miniatures have a lot of nasty undercuts, esp. the genestealers. One is even missing an arm to fit into the mould.

Daston wrote:
Well there you have it folks, if fw dies go plastic you'll get your plastic TH. It'll just have less detail and probably cost even more.

Oh no, my rivets!

Seriounly, most of the "detail" on the kit is rivets and panellines.mguessnwhst plastic kits handle just fine.

@ kroothawk

They have done some fair plastic multipart heroes in plastic before

though i only ever used the fantasy orc heroe and empire mages

If GW realy wants to they can make 1-2 multipart heroe / character kits per army where you can mix and match the parts between them to allow you to make just about every option and or character equipment wise in most armybooks /codex

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If GW uses this opportunity to actually drop their prices, I'll eat my laptop.

Honestly, if I was on the GW board, I'd request a slight price drop just to watch somebody eat a laptop!

I like resin figures. To bad gw couldn't sort finecast out. More detailed resins should of been a step foreword. Not back like we saw in finecast. Also it saddens me so many people have became even more turned off from resin due to the finecast blunders.

The biggest problem with finecast for me is the material itself. It's way too soft. QA issues can be sorted out over time, and they did get better with that the last year.

The resin itself bends to easily, when corrected with heat it still warps from other sources of heat(like the sun), and thin details couldn't hold up their own weight or would break easily.

If the same models were done with proper resin, they'd be fine overall.

China is somehow able to crank out perfect casts of finecast models in regular resin at lower prices than GW by 67%. So even if you wanted to take into account not paying your employees $.09 per hour, their methods would at least be viable for continuing the line.

At any rate, good riddance to the fiasco that finecast has been.

So how are supposed to get a thunder fire cannon now?

 wowsmash wrote:
So how are supposed to get a thunder fire cannon now?

Ebay my friend, Ebay.

So does anyone know when I'll be able to buy a Farsight model in an acceptable material then? Hopefully by then they knock his price down another $10 while they're at it but I know what won't happen...

 Peregrine wrote:

 silent25 wrote:
-There are internal tests taking place to cast some existing Forgeworld resin kits in a new plastic material.

This is kind of worrying. You can't do the same level of detail in plastic that you can do with resin,

I don't know, the plastic models in Island of Blood were good enough, and while the Urien Rakarth figure I uhave is excellent, the parts are super brittle and thin. I do, however, agree that the complaints about air bubbles and such were blown out of proportion, but there were an issue for many.

I think GW figured the amount of complaints and returns wasn't worth the extra detail.

 Peregrine wrote:
Plastic suffers from technical problems (no undercuts, etc) that limit the level of detail you can get.

So just add multiple pieces. Look at the detail on the Island of Blood Elf Wizard.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Fast?

Hey, we put up with the paint pots for how long?

 RiTides wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Agreed, but they're likely just responding to their bottom line. There's no way finecast models have sold as well as they expected, with all the quality issues, bad press, and resulting unpopularity with gamers.

I just bought my first Finecast blister last month in I don't know how long... after not buying any since just after it's release! If even a small fraction of gamers behaved similarly "voting with their wallets", then GW's hand was forced simply from a profitability perspective.

I agree. I've bought maybe four Finecast characters, when I'd buy many times that many in plastic. Of course, most of my stuff comes off ebay, but whatever.

Daston wrote:
Well there you have it folks, if fw dies go plastic you'll get your plastic TH. It'll just have less detail and probably cost even more.

Nobody in their right mind would pay FW prices for a resin Thunderhawk. It's plastic or nothing, for me. And if you want more detail, make more sprues and more pieces. The stuff you get with Tamiya and Dragon kits is amazing. I can't imagine they sell too many Mantas.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I don't like failcast so in one way I'm glad too see it go. But I'm a LOTR player so im pretty worried about what's going to happen to the failcast models, surely Games workshop won't re-model them into plastic as it wouldnt be prophetable. So what happens here? They have the licence to 2017.

 chris_valera wrote:
So just add multiple pieces. Look at the detail on the Island of Blood Elf Wizard.

That just isn't possible. Let's look at a simple DKoK grenadier model, since I've got one sitting on my desk:



See that cylinder on the back, at the end of the gas mask hose? There are seven tiny fins on there, and all of them have to be a separate piece. So that's at least eight tiny plastic pieces, many of them less than 1mm thick (IOW, impossible to clip off a sprue without breaking them), just to make one detail element. And that hose? Curved in too many dimensions, so that's several more pieces that will have to be glued in perfect alignment. Now look at the front. See how the helmet has those recesses to either side of the face (where the collar sticks up)? More pieces. And of course all of the rivets on the helmet will have to be separate pieces. And that's just the easy stuff. See how thin the coat is around the legs? Well, you can't do that in one piece with injection molding (compare to similar plastic models where the legs and coat are a solid block of plastic), so have fun gluing several thin sheets together to make that coat.

In short, that simple infantry model, one of 5-10 in a squad, would probably require hundreds of pieces, many of them far too small to work with for 99.9999% of GW's customers. IOW, if GW made that DKoK grenadier in plastic it would lose most/all of the fine detail that makes it worth owning.

you can make that model with 95-99% of the detail it has now as a 10 part plastic (your average plastic IG, tau, orc, or spacemarine already has 5+ parts) - not that many more then a lot of GW plastics already are - again, look at the quality of military plastic figures from companies like dragon and trumpeter.

Also, as i stated before, up close you will see those details or the lack of them... but how often (not counting painting competitions do you actually see that model at double the real size.... look at a 28 mm model from a few feet away and you don't even notice most of those same details

orc master wrote:
Also, as i stated before, up close you will see those details or the lack of them... but how often (not counting painting competitions do you actually see that model at double the real size.... look at a 28 mm model from a few feet away and you don't even notice most of those same details

It's still a loss of detail. Going plastic-only is a concession by GW that making "good enough" models is the extent of their ambition.

Yes, but those will be the best good enough models in the world! Great news!

I'll freely admit that I have become pretty jaded when it comes to GW, but it still hurts to have to watch the deconstruction of the Citadel brand. The relatively few sculpts they made for Finecast were technically great, and their plastic characters, while great for what they are, simply are not on the same level as their metal and Finecast sculpts.

For most players, this will probably not make much of a difference, but for collectors, this is a blow.

This is further exacerbated by the current trend of mostly putting out dual kits that compromise the looks of both units they offer, which makes me less than hopeful that the plastic replacements for all the Finecast UNITS will at least look decent on their own.

 Peregrine wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:
So just add multiple pieces. Look at the detail on the Island of Blood Elf Wizard.

That just isn't possible. Let's look at a simple DKoK grenadier model, since I've got one sitting on my desk:



See that cylinder on the back, at the end of the gas mask hose? There are seven tiny fins on there, and all of them have to be a separate piece. So that's at least eight tiny plastic pieces, many of them less than 1mm thick (IOW, impossible to clip off a sprue without breaking them), just to make one detail element. And that hose? Curved in too many dimensions, so that's several more pieces that will have to be glued in perfect alignment. Now look at the front. See how the helmet has those recesses to either side of the face (where the collar sticks up)? More pieces. And of course all of the rivets on the helmet will have to be separate pieces. And that's just the easy stuff. See how thin the coat is around the legs? Well, you can't do that in one piece with injection molding (compare to similar plastic models where the legs and coat are a solid block of plastic), so have fun gluing several thin sheets together to make that coat.

In short, that simple infantry model, one of 5-10 in a squad, would probably require hundreds of pieces, many of them far too small to work with for 99.9999% of GW's customers. IOW, if GW made that DKoK grenadier in plastic it would lose most/all of the fine detail that makes it worth owning.

I agree.

Here's a prediction; after around three years of moaning about Finecast, the same people will be slagging off GW for discontinuing it.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Here's a prediction; after around three years of moaning about Finecast, the same people will be slagging off GW for discontinuing it.

You say that as if it was contradictory, which it is not.

People had issues with Finecast because it was a sub-par material. Discontinuing it instead of fixing its issues or switching to proper resin (or even metal) is going from the second worst solution to the worst one. I'd say that's a valid reason to complain.

Absolutely Allod.

It wasn't the 'vision' of Finecast that was the issue. GW did (and I would argue, still do) need a method of bringing out the high-detail, complex sculpts that are only possible in either resin or metal.

It was the quality control aspects of FC that people had the issue with; that GW had used the cheaper casting process, a lower grade resin, and with casts that weren't initially designed for resin. This was why, rather than being near the top of resin miniature quality, it was somewhere near the bottom.

But it's sad now that people are saying 'good riddance'. There was nothing wrong whatsoever with the idea of Finecast, just the way it was implemented. Not it seems that, even with those concessions to cost mentioned above, the profit margins weren't enough, and rather than looking at ways of improving the resin miniatures (which don't forget still make up a good chunk of certain areas of the catalogue) it's being done away with all together.

On top of this, I'm guessing if I was one of the production workers and casters in Lenton right now I would start getting my C.V. together...

You know the proverb - the road to hell is paved with good intentions? I couldn't care less what Finecast had the potential to be; what was and still is being sold is below any acceptable standards. And I very much doubt that all the issues with FC took the powers that be by surprise; they had years to experiment with the stuff and yet deemed it good enough to be released onto the world in the state that has effectively become the most loathed material in the history of wargaming. This, I remind you, by the company that insists it's the leading edge in the business.

Once again a perfectly good product brought down by cutting corners. Sadly, it's come to be quite a norm in wargaming as of late (cf. Mantic Games), to the dismay of miniature collectors everywhere.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Fast?

You read correctly!

 ph34r wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Thumbs up to them for ditching it fast. GW has responded to the people.

Fast?

You read correctly!

Considering that when Finecast came out, people were claiming GW had already been working on it for a couple years, moving to a different method likely would take the same amount of time. If this rumor is true, GW management decided to begin looking into another method after the first year. So yea, ph34r is right, it is fairly fast.

They are completely redoing a major part of their product line, again. Wouldn't surprise me if they are already producing the new casts already for distribution and warehouse storage.

I'm glad to see it go, it didn't happen fast enough.

Aside from the company continually trying to polish a turd, the medium was subpar, the implimentation was laughable, and the plastics as of now are 110% better then what was put out even alongside the finegrab that it was a smack in the face to players.

P{eople looking at this stuff with rose colored glasses on are fooling themselves. "Finecast" was supposed to be the highest quality material for the best figures, at a cheaper price. Not only was it gak, they rose the prices along with the propaganda machine.

Honestly saw someone go through 4 boxes to get a unit. HOW was that supposed to be groundbreaking?

Then we won't even get into the QAQC, which was nonexistant.

The move to complete plastic streamlines the company for the eventual sale to whatever buys it out and rips it up.


Resin is the way to continue if they want to keep consistant standards up. Aside from the move from metal, it is the plastics that will keep selling and keep food on the table for them, but Resin is the way to go if they want to get cute again.

Aside from sending specialized figures to FW, for the love, they need to just stick to mass practice Micky D's style cranking out of the plastics, so they can try to quickly try to gain thier market back that they abdicated for the quick profit.

 silent25 wrote:
They are completely redoing a major part of their product line, again.

If they drop 37 products from Space Marine HQs alone and maybe, just maybe, release 1-2 new plastic boosters, it's not called "redoing a major part of their product line", but "dropping a major part of their production line".

Whatever you think of metal and finecast, the product diversity will be reduced by more than 50%, burying the following armies:
Eldar, Adepta Sororitas, Inquisition (AS and =I=, we hardly knew you). Plus burying most HQs in any Codex and armybook.

As I said, GW is power shrinking.

Well, I'm ordering my Thunderfire cannon before it's gone forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This way I'll own a piece of history...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordered!!

Do they still claim to make the best miniatures in the world? The Emperor has no clothes.

Well, I hope people liked Finecast prices, because there's no way a replacement material will get away without a price hike.

I anticipate Restic but at Finecast (or higher) prices. Or plastic models like the $30 Space marine HQ pack.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Well, I hope people liked Finecast prices, because there's no way a replacement material will get away without a price hike.

Finecast Librarian £9.50, Plastic Librarian £18.00.
Finecast Space Marine Captain £11.00, Plastic Space Marine Captain £18.00
Metal Chaplain £8.20, Finecast Chaplain £9.50, Plastic Chaplain only available in £55.00 box.
You are right: No way will a switch to plastic happen without a 50-100% price hike
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440271a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

I will be the first to own up to it if I am proven wrong, though. And be happy to do so.

 Kelly502 wrote:
Well, I'm ordering my Thunderfire cannon before it's gone forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This way I'll own a piece of history...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordered!!

Good call!
When they go back to metal you will need a drill press to build it!

Yeah, you would never need special tools to build a resin model. *cough*

Be glad all you needed was a pin vise.

If they drop Finecrap items too fast, i'll bet other suppliers wouldn't mind to fill the void, and it will cause an increase of FW sales.

One thing I always find odd in these threads is, what appears, to be a lack of understanding in the rest of the plastic model market.

I have seen some amazing molded detail from manufacturers like dragon and tamiya. 1/48 scale soldiers (about a head taller than a marine) with very detailed overcoats. Granted, a single soldier will be around 10 parts, and there will be seam lines that can't be hidden, but it is very possible.

In the above mentioned gas mask canister, it could easily be reproduced in plastic. The canister would be in 2 parts, one part would be the left side and all the fins, the other be the right cap. The left side would be oriented facing up, so that the mold could easily get the shape of the fins. The same way hollow barrels are formed for military kits.

Undercuts are also possible with the use of slide molds, although they are pricy so only a large kit or a general kit (marine commander) would benefit from them.

Resin is still the king of small details (look up any five star story garage kit) but plastic has come a long way.

I imagine one of the reasons why GW keeps things fairly simple is because their target demographic (or what they think their target demographic is) are 12-year-old boys, who might be put off if the models came in too many parts and were more difficult to assemble than they currently are. Usually those kits you mention have lots of parts, I've even seen some for example that have upwards of 600-700, and sometimes those parts can be pretty small and delicate. GW also seems keen nowadays to advertise how quick and easy to assemble their kits are, like the new Dark Elves for example. Last month they said this about the warriors on release weekend: "It's also worth mentioning that each model comes in just four components, making them wonderfully easy to assemble so that you can get straight in to painting them for your collection." More parts means more complicated kits, more complicated kits means more time spent assembling them, and more time spent assembling them means more time for little kiddies to lose interest and go back to video games.

It makes for some pretty bland-looking armies though, in my opinion. I'm sure I'm not the only one who looks at all the new Dark Elves and thinks every army is going to look exactly the same, and thinks it's just sad how damn near every individual model is in the exact same pose with the only differences being a leader without a helmet or a guy banging a drum/carrying a banner. I mean I expect the armies in WHF to be a little more uniform or regimented, but to the point where every model is in the exact same pose holding their spear the exact same way?

Oh I certainly agree that those kits I mentioned are time consuming. I only mentioned them to illustrate the point that plastic can do a lot, especially compared to gw's current offerings.

After building a Real Grade zeta gundam (1/144, about the size of a dreadknight) and seeing the entire internal frame made from different plastics (they molded the frame, then did a second mold that added articulation to the frame) and be completely pose able blew me away. There is nothing stopping gw from doing this with kits like the riptide or tau suits.

Granted, they are all about speed of building. Bandai even made full color kits, with more than 1 color on certain parts, in the 80's.

Imagine having pre colored tau suits. Just clip and go. Same with just about any army. Pre colored ultramarines?

 Sidstyler wrote:

It makes for some pretty bland-looking armies though, in my opinion. I'm sure I'm not the only one who looks at all the new Dark Elves and thinks every army is going to look exactly the same, and thinks it's just sad how damn near every individual model is in the exact same pose with the only differences being a leader without a helmet or a guy banging a drum/carrying a banner. I mean I expect the armies in WHF to be a little more uniform or regimented, but to the point where every model is in the exact same pose holding their spear the exact same way?

Honestly I'm okay with that.
Have you tried to rank up Corsairs?

I do want to add though: If you look at the parts breakdown, the Warrior box does include parts so that you can build all the Warriors as whatever build you're wanting. The Dark Rider kit has done that as well with enough spears and enough "generic helmeted" heads to ensure that you can build the whole box as rank and file models without command options if you're wanting to field units of 10 rather than 5.

The one disappointing thing I will say is that the Warrior box has all of the heads attached to the bodies. They look like the current Island of Blood Lothern Sea Guard just without the shields molded on. It kinda ruins a conversion idea I had for some Shades using the spare heads from my Dark Riders.

 Sidstyler wrote:

It makes for some pretty bland-looking armies though, in my opinion. I'm sure I'm not the only one who looks at all the new Dark Elves and thinks every army is going to look exactly the same, and thinks it's just sad how damn near every individual model is in the exact same pose with the only differences being a leader without a helmet or a guy banging a drum/carrying a banner. I mean I expect the armies in WHF to be a little more uniform or regimented, but to the point where every model is in the exact same pose holding their spear the exact same way?

It depends on the army and troop type. For trained, regimented troops like Dark/High Elf spearmen, I think that's pretty reasonable. Chaos Marauders and Savage Orc Boyz? Not so much...

You guys confuse the heck out of me with your Q1-Q4 timelines. Are we talking calendar or fiscal year? The difference being GWs fiscal 2014 Q2 is the end of this month and calendar is next year in June/July timeline.

Also with announcements like this, when it comes to a rumor that would affect the bottom line of the company (discontinuing operations, etc.) - your source should be aware of insider trading laws as this is something that could potentially get you fired and sent to jail. If you had a professional license you could also get it yanked. If it's a rumor that turns out to be true and you invested or pulled your money out to avoid it you can get some harsh penalties and the website could get in trouble for posting it. Just my two cents from a risk management perspective. It's not likely but could be a possibility.

wreeper007 wrote:
Oh I certainly agree that those kits I mentioned are time consuming. I only mentioned them to illustrate the point that plastic can do a lot, especially compared to gw's current offerings.

After building a Real Grade zeta gundam (1/144, about the size of a dreadknight) and seeing the entire internal frame made from different plastics (they molded the frame, then did a second mold that added articulation to the frame) and be completely pose able blew me away. There is nothing stopping gw from doing this with kits like the riptide or tau suits.

Granted, they are all about speed of building. Bandai even made full color kits, with more than 1 color on certain parts, in the 80's.

Imagine having pre colored tau suits. Just clip and go. Same with just about any army. Pre colored ultramarines?

You should see the resin B-Club puts out. Puts forgeworld and failcost to shame. As does pretty much every model firm compared to GW.

The owner of my FLGS told me today that he will not be able to order any Finecast kits beginning in January. GW's new trade item list (valid from January 1st) has accordingly shrunk from 30 to 18 pages. He doesn't know whether Forgeworld will take over producing any kits, but that doesn't matter a lot to him, because he can not order from Forgeworld anyway.

I don't know whether this a fluke because Vienna also has a very large GW store or worldwide policy, but I thought it's a noteworthy little update to the OP.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 Kelly502 wrote:
Well, I'm ordering my Thunderfire cannon before it's gone forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This way I'll own a piece of history...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordered!!

Good call!
When they go back to metal you will need a drill press to build it!

I second buying the TFC in Finecast as a good idea. No matter how bad the Finecast version is, it would have to be a significant improvement over the metal one. I had to spend hours on mine with a dremel tool.

 Allod wrote:
The owner of my FLGS told me today that he will not be able to order any Finecast kits beginning in January. GW's new trade item list (valid from January 1st) has accordingly shrunk from 30 to 18 pages. He doesn't know whether Forgeworld will take over producing any kits, but that doesn't matter a lot to him, because he can not order from Forgeworld anyway.

I don't know whether this a fluke because Vienna also has a very large GW store or worldwide policy, but I thought it's a noteworthy little update to the OP.

Of course, as Forgeworld don't sell wholesale once/if Finecast moves to them all third party retailers will be cut off. Interesting.

 Allod wrote:
The owner of my FLGS told me today that he will not be able to order any Finecast kits beginning in January. GW's new trade item list (valid from January 1st) has accordingly shrunk from 30 to 18 pages.

More indication of GW's power shrinking. GW seems to have an ambitious business plan to half the sales within 5 years.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Allod wrote:
The owner of my FLGS told me today that he will not be able to order any Finecast kits beginning in January. GW's new trade item list (valid from January 1st) has accordingly shrunk from 30 to 18 pages. He doesn't know whether Forgeworld will take over producing any kits, but that doesn't matter a lot to him, because he can not order from Forgeworld anyway.

I don't know whether this a fluke because Vienna also has a very large GW store or worldwide policy, but I thought it's a noteworthy little update to the OP.

Of course, as Forgeworld don't sell wholesale once/if Finecast moves to them all third party retailers will be cut off. Interesting.

Wow, interesting is right. And crazy . Wonder what mikhaila thinks of all this- even LESS product that he's allowed to try to sell for GW!

Saw this coming.

Their service department was getting right bummed about the various errors in casts.

I think somebody looked at the numbers along with sales returns and did the math.

An injection molded plastic model is a bit more repeatable than the finecast method (refurbishing the old spincast molds).

Makes sense to hand over the rest to Forge World: they are setup for the dealing with resin true high detail models. I suspect they would touch up the molds a bit so I only expect them getting better under their care.

Good decision on GW's part, I almost have some hope for them...

But..I can't pay forgeworld prices.
Step one of screw lotr/hobbit=4 elites for 20 euro in failcast.
Step 2=half infantry box model count.
3:Up hobbit box prices by a Tenner
4:don't do ANYTHING to compensate for being ten euros more expensive then a box of boyz.Whats that?We get twelve models?You get 190 components in one infantry kit.More bitz then 10 boxes of LOTR stuff.
5:make all heroes and elites unavalible though retail
6:???
7:No profit.

Regarding your last "no profit" line, Da krimson. I know that was a bit of a joke, but I have to say: GW will likely continue to make excellent profits on this, which is basically a very large cost cutting move if they move Finecast over to direct only / FW.

But what they are giving up is market share. All those kits not being sold in stores, by independents, etc.

This seems to be a bit of GW's strategy the last several years- aggressively cut back services and costs, to increase profits. But what you lose, is market share, making room for other companies on game store shelves, at events, etc.

In the end this is really good for diversity in wargaming, but a really poor decision for GW regarding their long-term hold on the market, imo. It will look great for the cost savings, though, and thus really attractive in the short term.

This is assuming kits that are Finecast go to "direct only", of course, as was rumored above.

Presumably people will also have to factor in Forgeworld's stupid shipping and handling fees too. Sucks for the people that just need a character model or two unless they happen to need £200 of extra stuff or whatever the free S&H threshold is.

I think I am in the minority lol, I prefer Fincast to Plastic when it comes to painting up the models. You do not even need to basecoat it, you can just paint straight onto it...

 RiTides wrote:
Regarding your last "no profit" line, Da krimson. I know that was a bit of a joke, but I have to say: GW will likely continue to make excellent profits on this, which is basically a very large cost cutting move if they move Finecast over to direct only / FW.

But what they are giving up is market share. All those kits not being sold in stores, by independents, etc.

This seems to be a bit of GW's strategy the last several years- aggressively cut back services and costs, to increase profits. But what you lose, is market share, making room for other companies on game store shelves, at events, etc.

In the end this is really good for diversity in wargaming, but a really poor decision for GW regarding their long-term hold on the market, imo. It will look great for the cost savings, though, and thus really attractive in the short term.

This is assuming kits that are Finecast go to "direct only", of course, as was rumored above.

One of the reasons there are 20 million different kinds of Coke is to dominate the shelf space.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Allod wrote:
The owner of my FLGS told me today that he will not be able to order any Finecast kits beginning in January. GW's new trade item list (valid from January 1st) has accordingly shrunk from 30 to 18 pages.

More indication of GW's power shrinking. GW seems to have an ambitious business plan to half the sales within 5 years.

OR it lines up with a major shift to plastic and they want to reduce the number of Finecast kits to 0 as fast as possible and don't want to do a "buy back" like they did with metal models when Finecast came out.

But I suppose we can just assume Kroot has some kind of inside track on this that we don't know about and he's divining the future for us on this.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

OR it lines up with a major shift to plastic and they want to reduce the number of Finecast kits to 0 as fast as possible and don't want to do a "buy back" like they did with metal models when Finecast came out.

And they will replace twelve pages' worth of Finecast and metal items with plastic in what timeframe?

I do not know whether this is an actual international policy or just the continuation of GW's little vendetta against my FLGS, but IF it is the former, it's basically a full retreat from the independent retail market, as these simply can not sell you a legal army anymore, with the exception of Empire, Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, if memory serves.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Allod wrote:
The owner of my FLGS told me today that he will not be able to order any Finecast kits beginning in January. GW's new trade item list (valid from January 1st) has accordingly shrunk from 30 to 18 pages.

More indication of GW's power shrinking. GW seems to have an ambitious business plan to half the sales within 5 years.

OR it lines up with a major shift to plastic and they want to reduce the number of Finecast kits to 0 as fast as possible and don't want to do a "buy back" like they did with metal models when Finecast came out.

But I suppose we can just assume Kroot has some kind of inside track on this that we don't know about and he's divining the future for us on this.

That would only make sense if GW weren't pulling well selling plastic kits and making them direct only.

They do? Which ones are those?

 Allod wrote:
They do? Which ones are those?

So far the only one I've heard of was the Wave Serpent which sold out so far they ran out of boxes for it and had to do extra runs on it to catch up.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
OR it lines up with a major shift to plastic and they want to reduce the number of Finecast kits to 0 as fast as possible and don't want to do a "buy back" like they did with metal models when Finecast came out.

We all know what you are trying to imply, and no, they don't plan on doing them anytime soon .

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Allod wrote:
They do? Which ones are those?

So far the only one I've heard of was the Wave Serpent which sold out so far they ran out of boxes for it and had to do extra runs on it to catch up.

Kroot Carnivores purportedly are going Direct Only.

Altruizine wrote:
Plastic can't match metal/resin in terms of "detail per cubic inch" but that's not the only expression of detail.

For example, metal versions of the Coven Throne (with it's "outflung" dynamism) or something like a Doomwheel or Drop Pod (with their "hollow" 3D details) would have never been possible in metal.

Then again, I admit that's a bit of a strawman argument, since we're pretty much talking character models in this thread, and I think almost anybody would admit plastic is superior for larger kits.

Dude, you're doing it wrong! Never admit to a strawman argument, at least until the witch sets him on fire!

I pretty much agree, but I will add a rider that for kits with a lot of variants plastic also works well - I loved the old Empire halberdier/swordsmen models, with the choice of legs, torsos, heads, and arms.

Somehow... the recent plastics have not lived up to that potential, being mostly of a monoposal (<== Look! A new word!) nature.

And the single pose results in more crappy looking undercuts.

As for GW, Hasbro, and buyouts... I think that GW wants to be bought out, but I don't think that it will happen. That the things that they are doing that they hope make them more attractive to acquisition instead are working like a leper's bell.

The Auld Grump

Off topic:

boyd wrote:
Also with announcements like this, when it comes to a rumor that would affect the bottom line of the company (discontinuing operations, etc.) - your source should be aware of insider trading laws as this is something that could potentially get you fired and sent to jail. If you had a professional license you could also get it yanked. If it's a rumor that turns out to be true and you invested or pulled your money out to avoid it you can get some harsh penalties and the website could get in trouble for posting it. Just my two cents from a risk management perspective. It's not likely but could be a possibility.

This is the exact opposite of the truth. DakkaDakka literally cannot be guilty of insider trading because anything posted here is not insider knowledge - it is knowledge that any halfwit with an internet connection can learn. If anything, it would immunise insider traders against prosecution, because the knowledge is now publicly available.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
OR it lines up with a major shift to plastic and they want to reduce the number of Finecast kits to 0 as fast as possible and don't want to do a "buy back" like they did with metal models when Finecast came out.

We all know what you are trying to imply, and no, they don't plan on doing them anytime soon .

Actually I wasn't thinking about Sisters but stuff like Stormtroopers and Techmarines/Servitors.

If the "FW takes over casting duties" thing holds true we may see Resin Sisters in the next year or so though. I'd be play wit that as long as they came in squads at a decent price.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
OR it lines up with a major shift to plastic and they want to reduce the number of Finecast kits to 0 as fast as possible and don't want to do a "buy back" like they did with metal models when Finecast came out.

We all know what you are trying to imply, and no, they don't plan on doing them anytime soon .

Actually I wasn't thinking about Sisters but stuff like Stormtroopers and Techmarines/Servitors.

If the "FW takes over casting duties" thing holds true we may see Resin Sisters in the next year or so though. I'd be play wit that as long as they came in squads at a decent price.

Well IG are £38 for 10, and SM are £34/£32 for 5.

As a Canadian that is sadly not to unreasonable compared to the current sister's prices.

good news ! to bad i just bought 3 models for my demon army that are finecast Guess i have no choice now.

I guess this why one of the Vindicare sculpts and the tau ethereal with two hand weapons have both disappeared from the website...

Now I'm in a quandary; do I panic buy the sculpts I've always liked, but never got around to and have to deal with a whole lot of trouble with fine cast, or do I put blind faith in GW to re release them in proper resin?!

I'd wait. The single-frame plastic minis have been pretty amazing so far, so I'd wager the new sculpts will look pretty cool.

 RiTides wrote:
This is assuming kits that are Finecast go to "direct only", of course, as was rumored above.

If Finecast production is indeed stopped, can they sell Finecast models forever on mail order?
My speculation is that the change of the GW webstore in April will get rid of all metal and finecast models, making it impossible for almost all armies to buy legal compositions, while some armies may disappear competely (Sororitas, Inquisition) or almost (Eldar). Almost all HQ sections in all Codices and armybooks are invalidated, as almost all characters are gone.

Concerning plastic kits: Serpent is back in retail, but many others went to mail order only, like Basilisk, Catachans, Kroot.

I wouldn't paint the scenario as dark as Kroot is here as the rumor has FW picking up on the stuff that isn't transfered over. And unless we're getting a surprise release of Sisters next year, they aren't on the rumor schedule at the moment and GW is loath to remove full armies (and don't start about Black Templars, you still have a legal army you just have to play them under C:SM like you did in 3rd) so I see it as a possibility that they may go resin if this rumor holds true.

I'm not terribly excited about the switch to full plastic, but I agree that it was definitely in the pipeline when Finecast was released.

Sadly, I'd have to agree that GW's long term goal is to cater towards the younger gamers, Howard's spot on with the notion that plastic is the easiest material for children to work on, and they have most certainly made the moves towards toy company.

However, I will say that with all these things aside, I'll wait before I pass judgement. If it pushes sales (especially in the younger groups) and generates profit I'm game, Forgeworld and other 3rd party miniature groups still make great miniatures, and can make for great alternatives. While they are certainly neglecting the older crowd, if this ends up working for them in the long run then I'm all for it.

I'm happy to kiss large finecast kits goodbye.

I'm curious as to why commander farsight and the enforcer commander were released in finecase. These are recent models with original sculpts.

I'm just wondering if I should order a bunch now or wait until forgeworld takes over.

I would expect a PVC type casting to be launched very soon. Some photos are doing the rounds of an IG sergeant with power fist. Looks very much like the same sort of stuff the sedition wars minis are made of.
I actually had my money sitting on GW trying to emulate the Bones type material.

If GW move to a soft plastic like Bones, I'll stop buying from them. The stuff is too soft for thin items like weapons, and doesn't hold anywhere near the detail of HIPS, resin, or metal.

The only reason Bones models are worth a damn is the price. And we all know GW wouldn't ever sell things that cheap.

 Aerethan wrote:
If GW move to a soft plastic like Bones, I'll stop buying from them. The stuff is too soft for thin items like weapons, and doesn't hold anywhere near the detail of HIPS, resin, or metal.

The only reason Bones models are worth a damn is the price. And we all know GW wouldn't ever sell things that cheap.

And that pretty much says it all....

T

For the record though, Finecast is too soft for weapons and thin details as well. It just holds detail better than Bones.

Resin has a place. I would love it if all large kits became plastic. I'd buy three plastic Thunderfire Cannon tomorrow.

But single character models are still superior in resin. Paying £18 for a plastic character model with all the limitations of plastic is just ridiculous to me. Sure, that librarian was nice, but for the same price I can pick up a forgeworld model that makes it look like some sculpted the plastic one with their toes.

Bones has a definite place in the market, and not one that GW ever wants to fill, because it would have to be a company like Reaper. Bones is perfect for models that you have rather narrow uses for; too narrow to justify a hefty price tag.

Next dungeon crawl encounter calls for gnolls? Buy 10 gnolls at $4/model...$40 for a few encounters... Buy 10 gnolls at $20, $15? For a lot of people, that decision is easy to make.

Need a stone golem? Need a dracolich? Need a frost giant? At metal miniature prices you might just decide that your ettin model will work as a frost giant, or that your red dragon can stand in as a dracolich. At Bones prices those sorts of once off or occasional use purchases are far more attractive. The price point pushes much more of Reaper's range into impulse buy, checkout lane territory.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd wait. The single-frame plastic minis have been pretty amazing so far, so I'd wager the new sculpts will look pretty cool.

I doubt they'll release new plastic kits until the army they belong to gets redone. If you bought something released in the last year or two, it could be a very long wait even with the accelerated schedule.

I actually quite like the bones material. Extremely resilient. Factoring in the price it's even better, but gw will absolutely not reduce price. If (as I suspect) they put out a PVC plastic type material (just like mantic etc) it'll be at the same or higher price point as finecast is now.

And it'll be Great News!

By the way, WGF releases single model sprues in HIPS for 12$ a pop (thinking of WWX here), with the same limitations as GW's. A few more bits? Sure. 18$ worth of bits, not likely, though.

Finecrap...errr....Failcast, I mean FINECAST was heralded as the second coming to miniature production since, well, miniatures were invented. They ignored us (players, stores) when we complained about quality issues, and instead released liquid greenstuff. When the complaints could no longer be ignored, GW admitted that with every new manufacturing process, there is a "break in" period as they learn how to work with this fantastic, new medium. The quality seemed to actually get worse as time wore on, and we suddenly got the "Citadel Clean Up Kit" to help fix all those nasty little issues with your Failcast...errr....Finecrap, I mean FINECAST. Obviously, in my un-expert opinion, the medium became untenable for GW to continue to use. Makes me wonder how many castings ended up on the floor instead of into production. Unlike metal, you can't just throw a bad Finecast model back into the pot. Finecast has actually two primary ingredients that are mixed together under temperature and pressure, and once set, that's it. Considering how cheap the base material is, it must have been a lot.

So now GW switches back to plastic. How much you want to bet it'll still be the exact same model/molds, and prices will go up again? The only reason I can see why they just didn't go all plastic in the first place was profit margin. Finecast was probably pushed to them as requiring no resculpts or changes to the master molds, just some retooling of the machines, incredibly cheap raw materials, and reduced shipping costs (weighs less then metal, eh?).

Am I being too harsh here? Heck yeah! GW used the exact same models and just converted them to this crappy medium and raised prices, while the cost of materials and labor went down. Good bye and good riddance to Fincrap...errrr...Failcast, I mean FINECAST!

 Tamwulf wrote:
So now GW switches back to plastic.

As already said, they don't switch back to plastic (switching back would be metal anyway), but discontinue heroes, characters and any low run models with only a very few exceptions that make it into plastic.

My prediction is they will continue a trend that has been coming up in fantasy: put the character in question into a unit box set. Karl Franz on Griffon? He's in the elector count on griffon box. Can make that WE hag queen in the cauldron box. How hard would it be to include plastic bitz to create a special character. We already have Titus bits in the SG/VV new boxes too. Is that the future?

Doesn't make since though. Much of the models in the HQ and heavy slots are or were finecast. Forge world isn't easy for everyone to get. So unless. They plan on carrying forge world in store's its almost impossible to complete some armies.

 wowsmash wrote:
Doesn't make since though. Much of the models in the HQ and heavy slots are or were finecast. Forge world isn't easy for everyone to get. So unless. They plan on carrying forge world in store's its almost impossible to complete some armies.

However, there was also a rumor floating around that sometime next year, Forgeworld's website will be rolled into the main GW website. That would coincide neatly with FW taking over making the special characters.

So after reading all 6 pages of this thread, all I can gather is that I need to buy one of each of every single characters models cause they're all being scrapped or shifted to Forgeworld (well the unpopular ones anyway) and we're going back to metal. Is this correct?

If the rumours are true

1) all finecast will be dropped by GW

2) all the current finecast models will be moved over to forgeworld where they may continue to be made (though whether in metal or forgeworld resin who knows)

the is probably also means that the rules for anything that foregeworld choose not to re-make will dissapear from future codex/supplements

(as happened with the Adapta Sororitas codex where at least one character was dropped right at the last minute where the model became unavailable)

so there's probably not much point in picking up the finecast (unless you really like the model) as the rules will either disappear or you'll shortly be able to get the mini in a better material

Plastic clam resculpts?

Not sure why they would need to be re-sculpted. Didn't Wyrd pioneer the way to use the same pewter/resin moulds for making high quality plastic minis?

I for one am looking forward to this as my 60+ hour painted to display level Belial's sword shriveled and then broke off last night -WTH!

GW, give us plastic characters (that don't cost more than finecrap) ASAP!

Not sure how I feel about this
I think we all agree that overall finecast was a mess. The quality was just not up to scratch and when im paying such a premium for miniatures from GW I expect the best. On the other hand some of the new plastic clam packs are mega expensive... 18 quid for a librarian is a little over the top and im not sure that is a good thing for the hobby.
But the good folks at GW arent idiots and if/when a complete switch to plastics happens I expect it will be done properly. Fin cast will have been a learning experience for them and with hindsight it was a super ambitious move, producing high quality plastics is something they are very good at and they will only get better.
Bring on the resculpts!

 455_PWR wrote:
Plastic clam resculpts?

Not sure why they would need to be re-sculpted. Didn't Wyrd pioneer the way to use the same pewter/resin moulds for making high quality plastic minis?

No Wyrd is resculpting everything digitally for the new plastics made for them by WGF

(you can in theory laser scan physical minis but you then need to do a whole lot of reworking to make them work for plastic by removing undercuts etc)

Hooray for $30 clam pack characters!

 SickSix wrote:
Hooray for $30 clam pack characters!

I don't know about this. If you look at the two Dark Elf clam pack characters(one of whom is actually a named character!), they're both $20.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Hooray for $30 clam pack characters!

I don't know about this. If you look at the two Dark Elf clam pack characters(one of whom is actually a named character!), they're both $20.

Well I play Space Marines. Both the toilet papered chaplain and the knock-off sicarius are $30. I imagine the new version of the Termi chaplain will be $50.

 SickSix wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Hooray for $30 clam pack characters!

I don't know about this. If you look at the two Dark Elf clam pack characters(one of whom is actually a named character!), they're both $20.

Well I play Space Marines. Both the toilet papered chaplain and the knock-off sicarius are $30. I imagine the new version of the Termi chaplain will be $50.

Yeah and that's puzzling when you consider that the Fireblade and Farseer both were $20 as well. I think the $30 for the Marine stuff was a testing mark and it definitely failed.

How do we know it failed?

Personally, I hated the stuff and welcome its demise.

So my eldar army could get scrapped in the near future because they are going to all plastic?

that kinda sucks for the time I've put into it, I don't like finecast but I also don't want to lose my aspect warriors, and if eldar go whats the point in 40k then, you have 8 human/space marine (im including the inquisition) based armies and 8 (7-6 depending on what we lose) of renegade-ish based armies with tau working with the imperium and chaos space marines just a sharper pointer space marine, it doesn't leave much options.
But if forgeworld takes over the slack and gives up resin it would be more expensive to take? I fear for the future of the hobby and if ill even be in it at all.

 wowsmash wrote:
How do we know it failed?

I'm assuming you're referring to the four plastic Space Marine Captains released a couple months ago?

Out of the 15 or so Space Marine players (including myself) in my area, I've never seen one on the table. The FLGS has sold one off the rack. I bet if you look around a bit, you'll see the same.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
How do we know it failed?

I'm assuming you're referring to the four plastic Space Marine Captains released a couple months ago?

Out of the 15 or so Space Marine players (including myself) in my area, I've never seen one on the table. The FLGS has sold one off the rack. I bet if you look around a bit, you'll see the same.

So I'm the only guy who bought the assault captain and the dev captain? Nobody else bought them?

After seeing how brittle my Finecast Necron models were, I will happily buy plastic replacements and keep the finecasts away from play tables where the staff or a limb is likely to snap off due to the brittle nature of the pale finecast material.

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
So my eldar army could get scrapped in the near future because they are going to all plastic?

They won't be scrapping Eldar. Eventually all the stuff that's metal/finecast will be re-released in plastic. In some form.

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
So my eldar army could get scrapped in the near future because they are going to all plastic?

that kinda sucks for the time I've put into it, I don't like finecast but I also don't want to lose my aspect warriors, and if eldar go whats the point in 40k then

Why would you assume they're just going to write Eldar out of the game entirely because of this? An army that got an update just mere months ago, no less.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
So my eldar army could get scrapped in the near future because they are going to all plastic?

that kinda sucks for the time I've put into it, I don't like finecast but I also don't want to lose my aspect warriors, and if eldar go whats the point in 40k then

Why would you assume they're just going to write Eldar out of the game entirely because of this? An army that got an update just mere months ago, no less.

Was just going off of what kroot said somewhere that eldar could be just scrapped away, it was like 4 in the morning. :p

Yeah, just wait 4 years or so and you might get some of your units and HQs back

GW... Buy or sell?

Sell. The only thing GW has is the considerable IP and fanatical cult following (guilty). They've seen the writing on the wall w/Chapter and 3D printing. They want to start franchises outside of us relatively few folks. Video games, MMO, Movies, fluff, digital downloads of codices fluff and eventually miniatures.

Of course I think Kennedywas assassinated by ancient aliens too. So what do I know...

 Azazelx wrote:

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
So my eldar army could get scrapped in the near future because they are going to all plastic?

They won't be scrapping Eldar. Eventually all the stuff that's metal/finecast will be re-released in plastic. In some form.

Yeah.In 3-5 years!

 Kroothawk wrote:
Yeah, just wait 4 years or so and you might get some of your units and HQs back

don't tell me this haha

 ChaosxVoid wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Yeah, just wait 4 years or so and you might get some of your units and HQs back

don't tell me this haha

Don't pay attention to Kroot. He's probably the bitterest person on these boards.

 -Loki- wrote:

 ChaosxVoid wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Yeah, just wait 4 years or so and you might get some of your units and HQs back

don't tell me this haha

Don't pay attention to Kroot. He's probably the bitterest person on these boards.

Negative, that honor belongs to HBMC

 -Loki- wrote:

 ChaosxVoid wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Yeah, just wait 4 years or so and you might get some of your units and HQs back

don't tell me this haha

Don't pay attention to Kroot. He's probably the bitterest person on these boards.

Eldar just got a Codex release. When do you think, the next Eldar Codex will come?
We are talking about a release replacing Fire Dragons, Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Reapers, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Harlequins, Shining Spears, Avatar, Autarch and Farseer Council, not to speak of Yriel, Eldrad, Illic, Shadowseer and the Phoenix Kings.

So if this rumour is true then the Dark Eldar would have no HQ options available to buy...

..unless we get a wave of replacement plastics in the next six months.

Nice idea but forgive me if I just re-adjust my hat of cynicism and take a fresh grip on the staff of "oh really?"

As long as they only stop Finecast production, AS will be okay. We're only loosing DCA and Crusader, with billions of way to count as.

Nice work GW.
hopefully this new material measures up with FINE cast.

 Aerethan wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Don't pay attention to Kroot. He's probably the bitterest person on these boards.

Negative, that honor belongs to HBMC

You must not have been paying attention recently. Even H.B.M.C. has been calling Kroot out for excessive negativity.

I can see it now. They could easily plug the needs in the Eldar codex lineup by a single box set, 5 multipose miniatures, but only enough bits for one of each aspect.

Instant profits!

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I can see it now. They could easily plug the needs in the Eldar codex lineup by a single box set, 5 multipose miniatures, but only enough bits for one of each aspect.

Instant profits!

YES!And we DOUBLE the price.Welcome to the GW directors board.I seem to see a lack of diversity in our product line.So why don't we make....Space marine,space marine,space marines?

My big question: if this is true, why release so many hobbit clam packs in finecast? 60% of the December hobbit releases are finecast. That would imply that they will be transferring those models to forgeworld, and I'm not sure how NLC would like having its biggest license transferred to a niche manufacturer with absolutely zero store presence.

godswildcard wrote:
My big question: if this is true, why release so many hobbit clam packs in finecast? 60% of the December hobbit releases are finecast. That would imply that they will be transferring those models to forgeworld, and I'm not sure how NLC would like having its biggest license transferred to a niche manufacturer with absolutely zero store presence.

Not to be rude, but while you are correct with so many Hobbit clam packs in Finecast...December is also marking the first time(as far as I am aware) that we're seeing plastic character clam packs in the form of Legolas Greenleaf and Tauriel being released.

I mean I can see why people would expect the changeovers to be happening right now, but if this rumor is true then it is not happening until the timeframe of April to June of 2014.
Personally? I do find this rumor hard to accept as feasible but I can see some credence for GW wanting to get more plastic characters out there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

godswildcard wrote:
My big question: if this is true, why release so many hobbit clam packs in finecast? 60% of the December hobbit releases are finecast. That would imply that they will be transferring those models to forgeworld, and I'm not sure how NLC would like having its biggest license transferred to a niche manufacturer with absolutely zero store presence.

Not to be rude, but while you are correct with so many Hobbit clam packs in Finecast...December is also marking the first time(as far as I am aware) that we're seeing plastic character clam packs in the form of Legolas Greenleaf and Tauriel being released.

I mean I can see why people would expect the changeovers to be happening right now, but if this rumor is true then it is not happening until the timeframe of April to June of 2014.
Personally? I do find this rumor hard to accept as feasible but I can see some credence for GW wanting to get more plastic characters out there.

New characters yes, but I'm skeptical about replacing existing figures with plastic versions, just too damn many of them and frankly not enough profit in it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not to be rude, but while you are correct with so many Hobbit clam packs in Finecast...December is also marking the first time(as far as I am aware) that we're seeing plastic character clam packs in the form of Legolas Greenleaf and Tauriel being released.

I think, it is also the first time that we see the release of "while supply lasts" plastic blisters and boxes. Sounds very desillusioned.

Captain Blood wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

New characters yes, but I'm skeptical about replacing existing figures with plastic versions, just too damn many of them and frankly not enough profit in it.

I'm absolutely 100% off the cuff speculating here, but I think if we were to see the end of Finecast production in the April to June timeframe, we would start seeing a rollout of new plastic versions of older characters at that same timeframe. I do not think it would be something that would be done overnight but rather gradually.

All I do know though is that I would be absolutely ecstatic to get a plastic Vlad von Carstein who is actually the towering man he is described as to go alongside the gorgeous Isabella von Carstein sculpt.

Kroothawk wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not to be rude, but while you are correct with so many Hobbit clam packs in Finecast...December is also marking the first time(as far as I am aware) that we're seeing plastic character clam packs in the form of Legolas Greenleaf and Tauriel being released.

I think, it is also the first time that we see the release of "while supply lasts" plastic blisters and boxes. Sounds very disillusioned.

"Splash/Allocated" does not necessarily mean "While supply lasts", from my understanding.

Plus it's not just the plastic blisters and boxes that were labeled as that. It was all of the Desolation of Smaug releases.