Say all the Imperium unified on a single front and every tomb world was fully awake and unified.

Who's got the advantage?

Do you guys have any sources?

Based on the fall of orpheus, considering what 1 dynasty could do to a prime, well-defended imperial sector, I have to say crushing victory for the necrons. First recorded destruction of a Tomb Ship and it took a battle barge kamikaze to do it. I am led to believe the imperium is greatly outmatched as far as naval warfare goes. On the ground, things might be a little more even but the Necrons still have the edge with their crazy technology.

The necrons should get bludgeoned horribly.

I'd say the Necrons. Their codex says they have many millions of Tomb Worlds, so that's the Imperium's million outnumbered handily. Then there's the ease of sabotage, misdirection and intelligence gathering that they can do with mind shackles. The codex also says that if the Tomb Worlds are unified then "the great powers of the galaxy will surely fall, and the Necrons shall reign supreme for eternity."

I thought I heard someone say the Necrons were rotting though and have lost a lot of technology too.

I'm no 'Cron and haven't read the Codex, nor am I too steeped in their lore, but perhaps someone could shed some more light on that possible plot hook?

And for the record, pretty much anyone except Eldar and DEldar are going to be the Imperium now. They're on their way out the door, same as has happened to the Eldar. Next "power" to "conquer" the "galaxy" (while the Chaos Gods laugh and wring their hands together menacingly)? Tau. +__+

Has no one noticed this trend yet? What is the only constant in the WH40K universe? What has ALWAYS been there, no matter shape or form?

It's Chaos. Chaos truly rules both the Warp and the Material, however demi-powers like the Necrons and Tyranids threaten that hold on reality, something Chaos is more than happy to do since they're playing the long game none others, not even the 'Crons, can match. +__+

This is the Truth. This is why I have my Red Wing Armada. I know it's a little off topic, but I felt it relevant since the question of the Imperium's superiority has come up once again. They're not that great. Hell, their leader is a Cannibal Corpse, which had ok music but was not to govern the universe. lol

If humanity could focus on only the necrons and destroy tombs worlds before they awoke then maybe, but that is a huge maybe. So my money is on necrons wining.
Also I doubt that the tau could rule the galaxy to much going against them and they are only still around because of plot armor. I like the tau they are fun army to play, but they have three really big problems that they just can't beat in the long run.

I don't see how the Imperium could win. The Necron navy is vastly superior and you can't win without naval superiority. Also, Necron tech is highly more advanced. In one of the Sisters or Battle noveles, Hammer and Anvil I think, a tech priest connects to Necron tech and is utterly shocked by how far more advanced the Crons are compared to them.

All warfare comes down to logistics and the Crons don't need the supplies that humans do and they can get their "three B's" Beans Bullets and Blankets where they need to be when they need to be there much easier than the Imp.

Um, Necrons, easily.

Their technology, combined with the greatest generals in the galaxy, combined with the cunning of chronomancers, the genius of crypteks and the infinite power of the celestial orrery, there's no way the Imperium could win.

Crypteks are think-tanks. Even the dumbest Cryptek could program viruses for Imperial networks or defense protocols for planets that would keep the best of the AdMech busy for years trying to figure out what's going on. Chronomancers can travel back in time and alter it to influence victories, the celestial orrery could be used to devastating ends, wiping out armadas before they even mobilize in the direction of the Necrons. I don't even need to touch on the power of their navy or transportation capabilities, others here already have.

Ultimately, in the fluff, the endgame scenario would be Necrons vs. Tyranids. Who would win that conflict is really subject to major theorycrafting, since they both have powerful trump cards in their arsenal. The Necrons and their staggering technology/orrery, the Tyranids have a potentially shocking number still out in the galactic void that perhaps even the Necrons won't be able to handle. We will never know. :(

"When the end comes it will not be at the hand of any mortal being of this or any other realm: death will come at the hands of the ancients, those who determined our fate aeons before we stood erect upon the holy ground of Terra and gazed up into the starry night."
--Inquisitor Hoth

Well, as soon as the Void Dragon got his say in..

Necrons.
Don't forget that a mere handful of Necron stealth ships were able to penetrate the Sol system's defenses, and even managed to LAND on Mars itself before being destroyed.

Necrons, easily, because as written they so out-class the Imperium it isn't even funny. In fact, I think it a flaw in GW and FW writing as the Necrons are portrayed as being so essentially invincible it is a wonder they haven't destroyed the Imperium already.

By evidence I give FW's TheFall of Orpeus:

In the Fall of Orpheus FW book, the reinforced Imperial sector fleet was shown to comprise 7 battleships (including 1 Retribution and 1 Apocalypse class), "more than 60" cruisers and capital ships, "several hundred" escort class vessels, 4 Space Marine battle barges, and 8 Space Marine strike cruisers.

Facing them, the Necrons are described as fielding less than a quarter of the Imperial ship numbers. The breakdown was 2 Tombships, 20 harvest ships, and the rest escort class vessels, with some later confirmed to be Dirge class raiders.

Though the breakdown of Imperial losses was never completely given, the narrative showed that Imperial losses as at least 2 battleships, 1 battlecruiser, 1 heavy cruiser, 2 battle barges, 3 strike cruisers. In the end, less than 10% of the Imperial fleet was still fit for combat. Little detail was shown of Necron losses with the only definite details being 1 destroyed harvest ship and damage to 1 Tombship. The other Tombship was shown to remain fully operational at the end.

In terms of size, FW has definitely taken to upping everything to ever higher limits. The BFG supplement Warp Storm gives the Battle of Callavell in the Age of Apostacy as one of the largest "set-piece" battles in Imperial history, In that, the Imperial force fielded 8 battleships, 5 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 5 heavy cruisers, 9 cruisers, and 6 light cruisers for a total of 37 capital ships. The renegade forces in that battle fielded 6 battleships, 4 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 9 heavy cruisers, 11 cruisers, and 8 light cruisers for a total of 46 capital ships.

So in other words, a single Necron dynasty awakened and within 1 year met and virtually wiped out one of the largest Imperial fleets in the history of the Imperium with modest almost minimal losses. This single dynasty goes on to take out 60 worlds in 100 days, essentially gutting the sector, and it fights off the Imperial counterattack sufficiently that 7 years later after the initial Necron attack, the Imperium dissolves the Orpheus sector.

IG. That much plot armor combined would be far too much even for necrons.

The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

Fully awakened Crons without having to worry about waking up Tomb Worlds, Dynasty rivalries or anything?

Well there goes the neighborhood. The 'Crons have access to the super ships like the Cairn-Class that would be absurdly hard for them to destroy, along with their super weapons like the Celestial Orrerry. IIRC, aren't there also more world-engines and the Necrons have access to time travel?

Then there's also the C'tan shards, and is there any information on what the Dragon is- C'tan Shard or full C'tan?

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

 StarTrotter wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

This is a versus fight. Petty things like plotshields are waved away and actual advantages are discussed. The Necrons hold nearly all possible advantages and have the high ground.

The Necrons outnumber the Imperium several times over. Their troops are pound for pound far superior to the Imperium's. Their fleet to an even greater extent. Their technology is the most advanced in the galaxy. They have some of the most capable generals in the galaxy, in the case of Imotekh, possibly the greatest.

The Necrons win.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

This is a versus fight. Petty things like plotshields are waved away and actual advantages are discussed. The Necrons hold nearly all possible advantages and have the high ground.

To be blunt I'm jesting because well.... it's not a fair match. Necrons are simply so preposterously mighty. Greater numbers, greater tech, well greater everything really. Both are decaying but the necrons will take longer to decay. It's kinda like asking imperium vs orks if all the orks unite.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

This is a versus fight. Petty things like plotshields are waved away and actual advantages are discussed. The Necrons hold nearly all possible advantages and have the high ground.

To be blunt I'm jesting because well.... it's not a fair match. Necrons are simply so preposterously mighty. Greater numbers, greater tech, well greater everything really. Both are decaying but the necrons will take longer to decay. It's kinda like asking imperium vs orks if all the orks unite.

Necrons are only decaying thanks to them being poorly organized and still waking up.

This wouldn't even be a problem if they were all awoken and fully organized and thus able to restart their civilization and fully reform it. Once the IOM's been wiped out, they could focus on mopping everyone else up and return to fleshy bodies to fully reclaim their old civilization while remaining top dog.

The numbers of Necrons catching the Flayer Virus is rapidly increasing so I'd hardly call them an endgame race.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The numbers of Necrons catching the Flayer Virus is rapidly increasing so I'd hardly call them an endgame race.

This! This is the "grim dark" I thought was imposed on the Necrons after all! That there was some other thing that was pressing their potential End Game "Immortality" for time. This makes sense to me now, and why they are even in the running right now as opposed to just straight dominating.

And Necrons should totally roll with this! This is giving your army some good depth. I hate writers who want their army to be the ultimate best of all time. Screw that! Give me a hero with a major malfunction any day of the week! I know that guy can win and will win. Captain Perfect is a douche. Excuse my francais.

Yet the leader of the "Flayed Ones" was the guy who slaughtered all those planets in 100 days, plus gave the Minotaurs a butt kicking.

Hrm.

By asking this question you are taking away the imperiums main advantage - that they are already 'united' (in a sense). The orks aren't, chaos isn't, and the necrons aren't either. The only reason the imperium still stands is the fact that ot is united whilst its many enemies are not. It is their main strength. To make it a fair comparison you would have to give the imperium another advantage (since you are giving the necrons an advantage by waking them all up and uniting them whilst the imperium gains nothing as they already are united). Who would win: the imperium if they recovered ALL their tech from the dark age of technology or the necrons if united? Id still say 'crons.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The numbers of Necrons catching the Flayer Virus is rapidly increasing so I'd hardly call them an endgame race.

This really depends on the Dynasty. Some Dynastys are affected very little by the Flayer Virus, while others like the Maynarkh, are heavily affected. So this is more an issue dynasty to Dynasty, than every single of them falling to he Flayer Virus.

This! This is the "grim dark" I thought was imposed on the Necrons after all! That there was some other thing that was pressing their potential End Game "Immortality" for time. This makes sense to me now, and why they are even in the running right now as opposed to just straight dominating.

And Necrons should totally roll with this! This is giving your army some good depth. I hate writers who want their army to be the ultimate best of all time. Screw that! Give me a hero with a major malfunction any day of the week! I know that guy can win and will win. Captain Perfect is a douche. Excuse my francais.

The Main reason the Necrons are nt dominating right now, has nothing to do with the Flayer virus. We saw how effective the Maynarkh Dynasty was, and it is by far the most heavily infected Dynasty at the moment. The Reason the Necrons aren't totally dominating right now, is simply the fact that I'd say less than a 1% have actually woken up. There are Millions of Tombworlds, and only a handful have woken up. We've seen how effective they are when they actually muster their forces.

1. How it should be: Necrons undoubtly crush all Imperium forces and drive humanity to extinction.

2. What will actually happen: Plot armor kicks in and Humanity somehow beats a race that has:

-Technology that puts Eldar to shame
-Numbers greater than Humanity
-Galaxies most brilliant strategists capable of calculating nearly every possible outcome of a battle

Broly wrote:

1. How it should be: Necrons undoubtly crush all Imperium forces and drive humanity to extinction.

2. What will actually happen: Plot armor kicks in and Humanity somehow beats a race that has:

-Technology that puts Eldar to shame
-Numbers greater than Humanity
-Galaxies most brilliant strategists capable of calculating nearly every possible outcome of a battle

Their technology does not put the Eldar to shame. That's just wishlisting. The warp weapons of the Eldar were primarily generated to deal with the Necrons. I'd say they are on equal footing technology-wise. The problem arises from the Eldar not being able to sustain themselves as a growing race.

Their numbers are unmatched, completely agree.

Their strategists can see almost all possiblities, but they cannot predict which one would come true based on a series of events that can be influenced at the lowest possible level of effort required...enter...Eldar Farseers.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Broly wrote:

1. How it should be: Necrons undoubtly crush all Imperium forces and drive humanity to extinction.

2. What will actually happen: Plot armor kicks in and Humanity somehow beats a race that has:

-Technology that puts Eldar to shame
-Numbers greater than Humanity
-Galaxies most brilliant strategists capable of calculating nearly every possible outcome of a battle

Their technology does not put the Eldar to shame. That's just wishlisting. The warp weapons of the Eldar were primarily generated to deal with the Necrons. I'd say they are on equal footing technology-wise. The problem arises from the Eldar not being able to sustain themselves as a growing race.

Their numbers are unmatched, completely agree.

Their strategists can see almost all possiblities, but they cannot predict which one would come true based on a series of events that can be influenced at the lowest possible level of effort required...enter...Eldar Farseers.

Ok, Eldar technology is not equal with Necrons. This isn't really even up for debate, it's just a fact.

Eldar Farseers have been shown to be fooled and outwitted by their counterparts, using Astromancy.

 Sasori wrote:

Eldar Farseers have been shown to be fooled and outwitted by their counterparts, using Astromancy.

Though I believe it's implied that Farseers are usually better than seeing the future (one of the stories in the Necron Codex were Starbane goes into battle with Necrons and Orikan can only tangle the threads of fate or something). That said, I think Astromancy is the single worst piece of background out of that Codex. The only thing that makes literally no sense whatsoever to me.

As for numbers, while the Necrons have a greater number of Tomb Worlds they don't necessarily have greater numbers of ground troops (or fleet for that matter). Don't Guardsmen often out number them even if they're sorely outmatched? I still suspect they'd win though.

I think you're confusing "invented death" (which is false; they did not "invent" death) with "invented the fear of death" (which is true).

But they weren't able to effect Orks with the latter.

Poly Ranger wrote:
By asking this question you are taking away the imperiums main advantage - that they are already 'united' (in a sense). The orks aren't, chaos isn't, and the necrons aren't either. The only reason the imperium still stands is the fact that ot is united whilst its many enemies are not. It is their main strength. To make it a fair comparison you would have to give the imperium another advantage (since you are giving the necrons an advantage by waking them all up and uniting them whilst the imperium gains nothing as they already are united). Who would win: the imperium if they recovered ALL their tech from the dark age of technology or the necrons if united? Id still say 'crons.

I agree with this, you're giving the necrons an advantage they do NOT have in the 40k universe, and putting them against the imperium based on what they do have. It is like saying who would win if the emperor of mankind made a rapid recovery, and invented some new tech that tracked necron tomb worlds, then blew them all up?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The Necrons invented death. They killed the creators of this galaxy. If it wasn't for the Necrons, fear wouldn't exist. But it does.

Hands down the Necrons. Plot armor can only last so long.

I don't think you have read enough SM books

This is a versus fight. Petty things like plotshields are waved away and actual advantages are discussed. The Necrons hold nearly all possible advantages and have the high ground.

To be blunt I'm jesting because well.... it's not a fair match. Necrons are simply so preposterously mighty. Greater numbers, greater tech, well greater everything really. Both are decaying but the necrons will take longer to decay. It's kinda like asking imperium vs orks if all the orks unite.

Necrons are only decaying thanks to them being poorly organized and still waking up.

This wouldn't even be a problem if they were all awoken and fully organized and thus able to restart their civilization and fully reform it. Once the IOM's been wiped out, they could focus on mopping everyone else up and return to fleshy bodies to fully reclaim their old civilization while remaining top dog.

Spoiler:

That is actually something the Necrons will never be able to do. All of the people that are necessary for a "civilization", that is, artists, merchants, philosophers, teachers, etc. have all been turned into mindless Warriors. That is, perhaps, the greatest tragedy of their war with the Old Ones. They sacrificed *everything* they were in order to win, only to get the most Pyrrhic of victories. Necrontyr society is as dead as the Old Ones, and all of their experiments on returning to flesh bodies are for naught. They don't have the *minds* left to create a society. All they have are politicians.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I'd say they are on equal footing technology-wise.

Pleeeeease, have you even read any Necron fluff? *rolls eyes*

The most common weapon available to a Necron Warrior can blow a Land Raider up in about three turns of shooting.

Anything necron should just boil down to celestial orrery auto win gg. its quite boring.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Imperium fan... but the Necrons have this by a landslide, even without bringing the Celestial Orrery or other dooms-day tech into play.

Their armies are immortal. Their weapons, at every level, are superior. Their best tacticians are superior. Their scientists are superior. Their technology is millennia ahead of where the Imperium can hope to be... even DAoT Tech does not hold a candle to what the Necrons have.

And even the Necrons admit that their stuff is starting to fall apart, and it's still better than anyone else in the galaxy!

The Necrons have guys who travel through time to affect the outcome of battles. They have gods in pokeballs. They can infiltrate a starship through their Dolmen Gates.

A fully-awakened, unified Necron race is the death of life in 40K.

Fine, make it interesting at least, the necrons fully awake 1000 years after the emperor who rallies all his remaining primarchs and brings mankind all of its technological marvels from 30k

 Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
Based on the fall of orpheus, considering what 1 dynasty could do to a prime, well-defended imperial sector, I have to say crushing victory for the necrons. First recorded destruction of a Tomb Ship and it took a battle barge kamikaze to do it. I am led to believe the imperium is greatly outmatched as far as naval warfare goes. On the ground, things might be a little more even but the Necrons still have the edge with their crazy technology.

If only takes the destruction of a battle barg to take out a tombship then the necrons better run scared and leave the galaxy now.

As noted, making the Necrons fully awake and united tilts the balance. Now to tilt it back a bit you'd have to have the Imperium using and mass replicating DAOT tech and eldar/dark eldar tech (the latter is possible) heaviliy using warp based weaponry and advanced ships. Mayhaps the pressure of a united front cracks the imperium allowing human planets in the imperium to overthrow the adeptus tech superstitution and actually start moving forward.

After all the Old Ones were defeating the Necrons, so it is possible.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
Based on the fall of orpheus, considering what 1 dynasty could do to a prime, well-defended imperial sector, I have to say crushing victory for the necrons. First recorded destruction of a Tomb Ship and it took a battle barge kamikaze to do it. I am led to believe the imperium is greatly outmatched as far as naval warfare goes. On the ground, things might be a little more even but the Necrons still have the edge with their crazy technology.

If only takes the destruction of a battle barg to take out a tombship then the necrons better run scared and leave the galaxy now.

As noted, making the Necrons fully awake and united tilts the balance. Now to tilt it back a bit you'd have to have the Imperium using and mass replicating DAOT tech and eldar/dark eldar tech (the latter is possible) heaviliy using warp based weaponry and advanced ships. Mayhaps the pressure of a united front cracks the imperium allowing human planets in the imperium to overthrow the adeptus tech superstitution and actually start moving forward.

After all the Old Ones were defeating the Necrons, so it is possible.

You should perhaps reread the Fluff, it took a lot more than the destruction of battleship to damage a Tomb Ship, not destroy it.

The old ones were beating the Necrontyr, Not the Necrons. There is a pretty huge difference.

Niexist wrote:
Fine, make it interesting at least, the necrons fully awake 1000 years after the emperor who rallies all his remaining primarchs and brings mankind all of its technological marvels from 30k

The Emperor has supreme mastery over the Warp and Psyker powers. Even if all of humanity underwent the theorised evolution into Psykers, that's exactly what the Necrontyr spent millions of years fighting against. With Transcendent C'tan, World Engines, Time Travel, use of the Webway to out-maneuver the Imperium (Exactly how the Old Ones were defeating the Necrontyr in the War in Heaven), so what if the Primarchs are back with their Dad? The Primarchs were good warriors with fantastic leadership skills and genius minds for battle. A Necron Nemesor is that, except they're immortal and they have software to command their warriors instinctively. Even with the DAoT stuff being used, it doesn't hope to come close to Necron technology. Let's not even start on the Necron's naval superiority, I haven't read anything that suggests that Imperial ships were any better in 30K as they are now, and, well, just look at Orpheus.

If all of humanity centralised into one unbelievably massive fleet designed as a last stand for all of mankind, forgetting the impact on orbits etc wherever they were doing it, they'd have a huge amount of firepower. In one location. That would be surrounded on all sides. Throne, Orikan might as well jump back a few millenia to scatter the Primarchs so they can't be uni-... Never mind that. But he could certainly make trouble. Maybe even ensure there's a Tomb World in the Solar System.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Niexist wrote:
Fine, make it interesting at least, the necrons fully awake 1000 years after the emperor who rallies all his remaining primarchs and brings mankind all of its technological marvels from 30k

The Emperor has supreme mastery over the Warp and Psyker powers. Even if all of humanity underwent the theorised evolution into Psykers, that's exactly what the Necrontyr spent millions of years fighting against. With Transcendent C'tan, World Engines, Time Travel, use of the Webway to out-maneuver the Imperium (Exactly how the Old Ones were defeating the Necrontyr in the War in Heaven), so what if the Primarchs are back with their Dad? The Primarchs were good warriors with fantastic leadership skills and genius minds for battle. A Necron Nemesor is that, except they're immortal and they have software to command their warriors instinctively. Even with the DAoT stuff being used, it doesn't hope to come close to Necron technology. Let's not even start on the Necron's naval superiority, I haven't read anything that suggests that Imperial ships were any better in 30K as they are now, and, well, just look at Orpheus.

If all of humanity centralised into one unbelievably massive fleet designed as a last stand for all of mankind, forgetting the impact on orbits etc wherever they were doing it, they'd have a huge amount of firepower. In one location. That would be surrounded on all sides. Throne, Orikan might as well jump back a few millenia to scatter the Primarchs so they can't be uni-... Never mind that. But he could certainly make trouble. Maybe even ensure there's a Tomb World in the Solar System.

I think Nemesor's are the equivalent of a chapter master, not a primarch. Remember, we're giving the emperor 1000 years to fix things, and get the imperium back on track. In that amount of time he'd probably pump up the space marine production to ridiculous amounts, probably every chapter would be made to go to legion strength, so you'd be looking at close to 100 million space marines, not to mention the emperor has the knowledge of so much lost tech, and his own genius level intellect at work for 1000 years. I don't think Necron's have anything on the battlefield to deal with the emperor, or a primarch.

The Necrons still win. The Emperor wakes up... and Sol explodes. Game over.

It's called the Celestial Orrery.

Or, hey, Tesseract Labyrinths!

Cryptek: "That a Primarch?"
Trazyn the Infinite: *tosses Pokeball*
Cryptek #2: "Gotta catch 'em all!"
Trazyn the Infinite: "This will go great in my collection!"

Yeah, despite the flaw of being "mortal" or at least killable by mortal blow (it is safer to say the marines are timeless), they possess abilities which can fracture the real and unreal simultaneously, at a fundamental level. When the Emperor locks with Horus and he delivers a killing blow, he blows Horus's soul out of the warp, crushes his mind and breaks his body. That's a power the "immortal" Necrons would fear, even if they were familiar with it.

On top of that, there is another angle not being seen. If the Emperor is able to command that much strength, then he would be able to command the Warp itself, and thus the Warp Gods which would also drastically change. This is the other massive presence the Necrons would really rather not deal with. And imagine if the "Ruinous Powers" were no longer "Ruinous" but "Noble?" The 4 Noble Powers? :O

That would be weird, but that's what would happen to the Warp and why the Chaos Gods feared him. He could have purified the Warp and in turn, his people who were reflected there.

Niexist wrote:
I think Nemesor's are the equivalent of a chapter master, not a primarch. Remember, we're giving the emperor 1000 years to fix things, and get the imperium back on track. In that amount of time he'd probably pump up the space marine production to ridiculous amounts, probably every chapter would be made to go to legion strength, so you'd be looking at close to 100 million space marines, not to mention the emperor has the knowledge of so much lost tech, and his own genius level intellect at work for 1000 years. I don't think Necron's have anything on the battlefield to deal with the emperor, or a primarch.

Technically, it depends on the Nemesor in question, as it's not a place in the hierarchy, it's just a situational title, like Grand Admiral. Nemesor Zahndrekh was a Phaeron, now he's an Overlord, but he's a Nemesor in battle. As others have said, Tesseract Labyrinths are pretty much a go-to solution, and remember that in almost one instant, the Necrons used the universe to destroy the C'tan. What if they woke up that stuff? Illuminor Szeras designed the process to rip the consciousness out of sentient beings and then put it in a body of metal that is alive and is almost impossible to actually kill, I think he might have a few tricks up his sleeve, especially since he spends his time vivisecting sentient species to return to living form, and so discovers their strengths, weaknesses etc. The emperor might be a genius, he might have lived for 40,000 years, he might be able to remember every single piece of technology designed by humankind since they crawled onto dry land. But the Necrons are at least 600 million years old, probably more like a few billion years old. They have technology that can remotely make a star go supernova. The Imperium have cannons. The Necrons can make a planet into a spaceship. The Imperium have Battle Barges. The Necrons united would have access to all that technology, and anything new they can come up with. Then travel back and deploy it before humanity went into space, First Contact style.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Yeah, despite the flaw of being "mortal" or at least killable by mortal blow (it is safer to say the marines are timeless), they possess abilities which can fracture the real and unreal simultaneously, at a fundamental level. When the Emperor locks with Horus and he delivers a killing blow, he blows Horus's soul out of the warp, crushes his mind and breaks his body. That's a power the "immortal" Necrons would fear, even if they were familiar with it.

On top of that, there is another angle not being seen. If the Emperor is able to command that much strength, then he would be able to command the Warp itself, and thus the Warp Gods which would also drastically change. This is the other massive presence the Necrons would really rather not deal with. And imagine if the "Ruinous Powers" were no longer "Ruinous" but "Noble?" The 4 Noble Powers? :O

That would be weird, but that's what would happen to the Warp and why the Chaos Gods feared him. He could have purified the Warp and in turn, his people who were reflected there.

Supposition not supported by evidence in the setting so far. He "could" have purified the Warp... maybe. He certainly wasn't anywhere near doing it then, and ten thousand years later, the Warp is no cleaner a place. And the Ruinous Powers will never be Noble powers. Violence is Violence, Khorne is Khorne. Ambition, dreams, hopes, plots and puzzles are Tzeentch. Things still rot and decay, so Nurgle's not going anywhere.

The Emperor certainly didn't affect much change of the Warp Gods during the Heresy, what makes you think he's going to be able to do so now? Yeah, he's a powerful psyker, I get that... but this era is beyond his ability to precog. As we've been shown, lacking his precognition, he's kind of indecisive and muddled. Rather a lot, really. It's a crutch that he relied on for far too long.

What happens when he gets off the Throne and the Imperial Palace is suddenly packed wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling with the greatest predators the Warp can produce, because the Web-Way gate that's been under his butt for 10,000 years has a fething huge hole in it, and most of his time is spent holding it shut?

Also....

Necrons don't have souls. They have personality engrams. It's just software. Blow it out of reality? It respawns. Sometimes immediately. Unlike every other species in the setting, the Necrons are the ones who are truly immortal.

 Psienesis wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Yeah, despite the flaw of being "mortal" or at least killable by mortal blow (it is safer to say the marines are timeless), they possess abilities which can fracture the real and unreal simultaneously, at a fundamental level. When the Emperor locks with Horus and he delivers a killing blow, he blows Horus's soul out of the warp, crushes his mind and breaks his body. That's a power the "immortal" Necrons would fear, even if they were familiar with it.

On top of that, there is another angle not being seen. If the Emperor is able to command that much strength, then he would be able to command the Warp itself, and thus the Warp Gods which would also drastically change. This is the other massive presence the Necrons would really rather not deal with. And imagine if the "Ruinous Powers" were no longer "Ruinous" but "Noble?" The 4 Noble Powers? :O

That would be weird, but that's what would happen to the Warp and why the Chaos Gods feared him. He could have purified the Warp and in turn, his people who were reflected there.

Supposition not supported by evidence in the setting so far. He "could" have purified the Warp... maybe. He certainly wasn't anywhere near doing it then, and ten thousand years later, the Warp is no cleaner a place. And the Ruinous Powers will never be Noble powers. Violence is Violence, Khorne is Khorne. Ambition, dreams, hopes, plots and puzzles are Tzeentch. Things still rot and decay, so Nurgle's not going anywhere.

The Emperor certainly didn't affect much change of the Warp Gods during the Heresy, what makes you think he's going to be able to do so now? Yeah, he's a powerful psyker, I get that... but this era is beyond his ability to precog. As we've been shown, lacking his precognition, he's kind of indecisive and muddled. Rather a lot, really. It's a crutch that he relied on for far too long.

What happens when he gets off the Throne and the Imperial Palace is suddenly packed wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling with the greatest predators the Warp can produce, because the Web-Way gate that's been under his butt for 10,000 years has a fething huge hole in it, and most of his time is spent holding it shut?

Also....

Necrons don't have souls. They have personality engrams. It's just software. Blow it out of reality? It respawns. Sometimes immediately. Unlike every other species in the setting, the Necrons are the ones who are truly immortal.

We're usually on the same side of these things, so I'm sure this post won't be wasted on you. lol

Firstly, you should know that I think the Emperor is as much a fool to the Chaos Gods as any other mortal in the Imperium of Man, Chaos Space Marines, Daemon Primarchs/Primarchs, Inquisition, Psykers, Lords of Terra, the whole bunch of them. They've been using the power of the Chaos Gods without their consent (more or less) and so Chaos has played a master-stroke chess game with the entire universe that has been in the works for over 10,000+ years. I think the Emperor was basically duped into ascending to the Golden Throne and now suffers to the whims of the Choas Gods thuroughly now. I go back to a previous post somewhere where I describe a scene of Abbadon cracking open the Golden Throne in front of all the Loyalists, and then the Emperors emaciated body falling out, screaming obscenities and madness that literally shakes the Imperium of Man and Terra down to its soul, before Abbadon crushes the wretches head underneath his boot.

That said, that's where the above comes from: If the Emperor is theoretically on scale with the Chaos Gods (completely affecting of the Warp, same as them) then he could have possibly seen before and after the Siege of Terra, but not during. Fateweaver has a similar complex, so it's not so far fetched. That said, his duel with Horus was a gamble (although I stick to the idea that both Horus and the Emperor were meant to kill each other, per the planning of Chaos) and one he thought he had planned accordingly.

Ugh... lost my train of thought watching the Thing. If I can come back to this point at some time, I will. It's been a hell of a week for me. XD

The whole "Like a Chaos God But Not" is something of a fan theory, because there's nothing in the setting that really tells us what the God-Emperor *is* now. We're given a few apocryphal tales of the Emperor communicating directly with certain individuals, but most of these stories are many, many years old now, and possibly no longer valid...

.... or were never true in the first place and just grew out of tales told across the stars in an inter-stellar game of Telephone.

He may really just be a corpse on a chair, and died ten thousand years ago.

The powers of the psyker are not the powers of the Chaos Gods. Chaos... specifically, the Warp... exists outside of the Chaos Gods. It's simply a parallel dimension made of an energy that can be shaped and muted into absolutely anything by those with the ability to wield it. So psykers, and by extension the Emperor, are not really stealing anything from the Chaos Gods.

It's also implied, incidentally, that Chaos, as we know it in the 40K setting, is restricted to the Milky Way. There may, or may not be, Warps in other galaxies.

I thought the god-awful third edition retcrons were bad, but this new stuff seems just as mary sue overpowered. I'm always annoyed by the 'but my dad can beat up your dad!' posturing by these no-weakness, completely invulnerable so why don't you just pack up and go home factions. Why were they even written into the background if there is no way for them to be beaten? It's dull.

Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and comunications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstopable.

 Stonerhino wrote:
Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and communications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstoppable.

What limit on travel? I know they use Dolmen gates for long distance travel, but their ships are still the fastest in the galaxy at close range, and they can teleport from one planet to another as a reflex. As for communications, I'd like to know what can stop Necron communication signals.

Yeah, the Necrons aren't limited to Torchships and Dolmen Gates. They've regained the inertialess drive and can achieve FTL speeds now. Their communications seem to use some sort of hyperdimensional transmission matrix.... but if Faith & Fire is any indication, it is not galaxy-spanning, as the various relays that this require have, in the last 60 million years, fallen into disrepair or been lost or something. Or, at least, their comm-net is not quite as good and not perfectly reliable anymore. This could also be because the various Dynasties had no reason to speak to one another.

Though, I agree that, as written (as Newcron or Oldcron) they've always been Mary Sue villains. Whether it's the reality-shaping C'Tan that are sending their legions of robot death-machines out to harvest populations so the star vampires can feed on their souls or the machinations of the conquering Dynasties, doesn't really matter.

It should be understood that every race has an endgame for the Universe, and the Necrons just have one of the more terrifying and realistic ones. Mostly because they have already taken over the universe once before and then took a nap. So now they're waking up all over the place and taking things back again.

That said, the Necrons end-game is no worse than say, the Chaos endgame, which is to turn all of Real Space into a giant living Chaos body/daemon engine/organ.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and communications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstoppable.

What limit on travel? I know they use Dolmen gates for long distance travel, but their ships are still the fastest in the galaxy at close range, and they can teleport from one planet to another as a reflex. As for communications, I'd like to know what can stop Necron communication signals.

The 5th ed rule book tells us that the Necron's galaxy spaning communication network is not working. Also with the Necrons still having LFT travel outside the Dolman gates. That means that at this time their fleet is either to small (not enough operational yet) or not efficient enough to be their primary form of travel.

The difference between the Necron endgame and all the other's is that it was only a matter of time and trumps every other endgame except the Tyranids (maybe).

 Stonerhino wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and communications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstoppable.

What limit on travel? I know they use Dolmen gates for long distance travel, but their ships are still the fastest in the galaxy at close range, and they can teleport from one planet to another as a reflex. As for communications, I'd like to know what can stop Necron communication signals.

The 5th ed rule book tells us that the Necron's galaxy spaning communication network is not working. Also with the Necrons still having LFT travel outside the Dolman gates. That means that at this time their fleet is either to small (not enough operational yet) or not efficient enough to be their primary form of travel.

The difference between the Necron endgame and all the other's is that it was only a matter of time and trumps every other endgame except the Tyranids (maybe).

Except so is Chaos. They've been playing a longer game than anyone, Necrons included. The Necrons went to sleep, forgot to set the alarm and are lucky to be waking up at all. They should've all slept and died and never been a problem in the first place, but some curious monkey came along with a wrench and screwed that plan up for everyone. It only took a few million years, but still not bad. Chaos on the other hand? Actively and passively bringing about the End of Terra and afterwards, the universe.

The Eldar want everything to be pretty for when they finally can reproduce enough to colonize things, otherwise they've resigned themselves to the slow death.

The Imperium would take over everything and eventually march on like Tyranids actually, which takes care of two birds with one stone, except unlike Tyranids, the Imperium has to deal with rebellion, which feeds Choas, so they're destined to die actually, same with Tyranids after overconsumption.

DEldar? No future.

Tau have a future if they can stay alive long enough. Much like the Imperium actually.

Orkz are Eternal.

Did I miss anyone?

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and communications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstoppable.

What limit on travel? I know they use Dolmen gates for long distance travel, but their ships are still the fastest in the galaxy at close range, and they can teleport from one planet to another as a reflex. As for communications, I'd like to know what can stop Necron communication signals.

The 5th ed rule book tells us that the Necron's galaxy spaning communication network is not working. Also with the Necrons still having LFT travel outside the Dolman gates. That means that at this time their fleet is either to small (not enough operational yet) or not efficient enough to be their primary form of travel.

The difference between the Necron endgame and all the other's is that it was only a matter of time and trumps every other endgame except the Tyranids (maybe).

Except so is Chaos. They've been playing a longer game than anyone, Necrons included. The Necrons went to sleep, forgot to set the alarm and are lucky to be waking up at all. They should've all slept and died and never been a problem in the first place, but some curious monkey came along with a wrench and screwed that plan up for everyone. It only took a few million years, but still not bad. Chaos on the other hand? Actively and passively bringing about the End of Terra and afterwards, the universe.

The Eldar want everything to be pretty for when they finally can reproduce enough to colonize things, otherwise they've resigned themselves to the slow death.

The Imperium would take over everything and eventually march on like Tyranids actually, which takes care of two birds with one stone, except unlike Tyranids, the Imperium has to deal with rebellion, which feeds Choas, so they're destined to die actually, same with Tyranids after overconsumption.

DEldar? No future.

Tau have a future if they can stay alive long enough. Much like the Imperium actually.

Orkz are Eternal.

Did I miss anyone?

How is Chaos "playing a longer game"? The Necrons were around before the warp got all kinds of crazy. In fact they are one of the few races to at one time have controlled most of the galaxy, Chaos has never had a total victory like that even for a small amount of time. Also them waking up wasn't a mistake, the Silent King started that process up (for the most part).

 asimo77 wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and communications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstoppable.

What limit on travel? I know they use Dolmen gates for long distance travel, but their ships are still the fastest in the galaxy at close range, and they can teleport from one planet to another as a reflex. As for communications, I'd like to know what can stop Necron communication signals.

The 5th ed rule book tells us that the Necron's galaxy spaning communication network is not working. Also with the Necrons still having LFT travel outside the Dolman gates. That means that at this time their fleet is either to small (not enough operational yet) or not efficient enough to be their primary form of travel.

The difference between the Necron endgame and all the other's is that it was only a matter of time and trumps every other endgame except the Tyranids (maybe).

Except so is Chaos. They've been playing a longer game than anyone, Necrons included. The Necrons went to sleep, forgot to set the alarm and are lucky to be waking up at all. They should've all slept and died and never been a problem in the first place, but some curious monkey came along with a wrench and screwed that plan up for everyone. It only took a few million years, but still not bad. Chaos on the other hand? Actively and passively bringing about the End of Terra and afterwards, the universe.

The Eldar want everything to be pretty for when they finally can reproduce enough to colonize things, otherwise they've resigned themselves to the slow death.

The Imperium would take over everything and eventually march on like Tyranids actually, which takes care of two birds with one stone, except unlike Tyranids, the Imperium has to deal with rebellion, which feeds Choas, so they're destined to die actually, same with Tyranids after overconsumption.

DEldar? No future.

Tau have a future if they can stay alive long enough. Much like the Imperium actually.

Orkz are Eternal.

Did I miss anyone?

How is Chaos "playing a longer game"? The Necrons were around before the warp got all kinds of crazy. In fact they are one of the few races to at one time have controlled most of the galaxy, Chaos has never had a total victory like that even for a small amount of time. Also them waking up wasn't a mistake, the Silent King started that process up (for the most part).

Chaos isn't subject to causality. It's both never existed and always existed. Slaanesh is described as having a set birth date, yet always was in Chaos as a full-fledged god. Simply because it has a set date of creation in the materium doesn't mean it hasn't eternally existed in the immaterium, because the warp is weird.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 asimo77 wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and communications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstoppable.

What limit on travel? I know they use Dolmen gates for long distance travel, but their ships are still the fastest in the galaxy at close range, and they can teleport from one planet to another as a reflex. As for communications, I'd like to know what can stop Necron communication signals.

The 5th ed rule book tells us that the Necron's galaxy spaning communication network is not working. Also with the Necrons still having LFT travel outside the Dolman gates. That means that at this time their fleet is either to small (not enough operational yet) or not efficient enough to be their primary form of travel.

The difference between the Necron endgame and all the other's is that it was only a matter of time and trumps every other endgame except the Tyranids (maybe).

Except so is Chaos. They've been playing a longer game than anyone, Necrons included. The Necrons went to sleep, forgot to set the alarm and are lucky to be waking up at all. They should've all slept and died and never been a problem in the first place, but some curious monkey came along with a wrench and screwed that plan up for everyone. It only took a few million years, but still not bad. Chaos on the other hand? Actively and passively bringing about the End of Terra and afterwards, the universe.

The Eldar want everything to be pretty for when they finally can reproduce enough to colonize things, otherwise they've resigned themselves to the slow death.

The Imperium would take over everything and eventually march on like Tyranids actually, which takes care of two birds with one stone, except unlike Tyranids, the Imperium has to deal with rebellion, which feeds Choas, so they're destined to die actually, same with Tyranids after overconsumption.

DEldar? No future.

Tau have a future if they can stay alive long enough. Much like the Imperium actually.

Orkz are Eternal.

Did I miss anyone?

How is Chaos "playing a longer game"? The Necrons were around before the warp got all kinds of crazy. In fact they are one of the few races to at one time have controlled most of the galaxy, Chaos has never had a total victory like that even for a small amount of time. Also them waking up wasn't a mistake, the Silent King started that process up (for the most part).

Chaos isn't subject to causality. It's both never existed and always existed. Slaanesh is described as having a set birth date, yet always was in Chaos as a full-fledged god. Simply because it has a set date of creation in the materium doesn't mean it hasn't eternally existed in the immaterium, because the warp is weird.

Necrons deside to complete their "Great Work". There by closing off the warp. What does Chaos do??? Brood in the warp unable to do anything at all. The Necron then wipe out every living thing that does not further their goals.

No warp based FTL travel and the Necrons win hands down. The one exception is the Tyranids and they are just the exception that proves the rule.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 asimo77 wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Breaking down the Necrons into smaller faction leaves the possibility of in fighting (has already happened). Which combined with their new limits on both travel and communications. Prevents them from being the "Only a matter of time winner of 40k".

It is only when you view them as a whole do they seem so unstoppable.

What limit on travel? I know they use Dolmen gates for long distance travel, but their ships are still the fastest in the galaxy at close range, and they can teleport from one planet to another as a reflex. As for communications, I'd like to know what can stop Necron communication signals.

The 5th ed rule book tells us that the Necron's galaxy spaning communication network is not working. Also with the Necrons still having LFT travel outside the Dolman gates. That means that at this time their fleet is either to small (not enough operational yet) or not efficient enough to be their primary form of travel.

The difference between the Necron endgame and all the other's is that it was only a matter of time and trumps every other endgame except the Tyranids (maybe).

Except so is Chaos. They've been playing a longer game than anyone, Necrons included. The Necrons went to sleep, forgot to set the alarm and are lucky to be waking up at all. They should've all slept and died and never been a problem in the first place, but some curious monkey came along with a wrench and screwed that plan up for everyone. It only took a few million years, but still not bad. Chaos on the other hand? Actively and passively bringing about the End of Terra and afterwards, the universe.

The Eldar want everything to be pretty for when they finally can reproduce enough to colonize things, otherwise they've resigned themselves to the slow death.

The Imperium would take over everything and eventually march on like Tyranids actually, which takes care of two birds with one stone, except unlike Tyranids, the Imperium has to deal with rebellion, which feeds Choas, so they're destined to die actually, same with Tyranids after overconsumption.

DEldar? No future.

Tau have a future if they can stay alive long enough. Much like the Imperium actually.

Orkz are Eternal.

Did I miss anyone?

How is Chaos "playing a longer game"? The Necrons were around before the warp got all kinds of crazy. In fact they are one of the few races to at one time have controlled most of the galaxy, Chaos has never had a total victory like that even for a small amount of time. Also them waking up wasn't a mistake, the Silent King started that process up (for the most part).

Chaos isn't subject to causality. It's both never existed and always existed. Slaanesh is described as having a set birth date, yet always was in Chaos as a full-fledged god. Simply because it has a set date of creation in the materium doesn't mean it hasn't eternally existed in the immaterium, because the warp is weird.

Necrons deside to complete their "Great Work". There by closing off the warp. What does Chaos do??? Brood in the warp unable to do anything at all. The Necron then wipe out every living thing that does not further their goals.

No warp based FTL travel and the Necrons win hands down. The one exception is the Tyranids and they are just the exception that proves the rule.

Obviously. But the ability to destroy Chaos is confusing and likely impossible given some of the fluff GW made that's a bit oxymoronic.

You don't have to destroy Chaos if you can render all of their power meaningless. At that point they are just spectators anyways.

 Stonerhino wrote:
You don't have to destroy Chaos if you can render all of their power meaningless. At that point they are just spectators anyways.

Best to still keep the guns pointed on potential rips. It's better to be safe than sorry with Chaos.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
You don't have to destroy Chaos if you can render all of their power meaningless. At that point they are just spectators anyways.

Best to still keep the guns pointed on potential rips. It's better to be safe than sorry with Chaos.

Chaos has always been a spectator! That's what Chaos does. It lurks, and lies in wait until there is a choice opportunity (everywhere in the galaxy, as it turns out) and then it springs to attack but only enough to keep itself fed, like a slavering hound dying of hunger but unable to sate its desire. And what is Chaos' chief instrument of warfare when it comes to laying its claim to the universe? The usurpation of other races. especially ones like the Tyranids.

You can minimalize Chaos all day long and rationalize it with what can be done, but that's the problem. Chaos will ensure no one ever sees their plans met, most especially their own because if any of the ruinous powers were to truly win their Great Game, they would die. And I think a lot of Chaos players can understand this after reading both of the Codex's. This doesn't mean their End Game can never be met, it just means that the weirdness of the Warp is of such unfathomable scope that anyone who isn't already insane is going to have trouble understanding it.

Is this a perpetual gamble? What isn't in Chaos? Hell, our armies are largely based around whether or not the dice gods hate us at any given time. @.@ Deep Striking, Psyker Abilities, Warpflame/Soul Blaze, Chaos Boon Table, Chaos Storm Table, it's all a craps game with us, but one that ensures everyone always wins and everyone always loses. It's just a matter of how you are looking at it at that time, fluff included.

You are missing the point. The Necrons literally have technology that shuts the warp down and are completely uncurruptable by Chaos.

The "Dice Gods" are pointless if the Necrons can figuratively prevent Chaos fom rolling any dice.

@Wyzilla: You are correct. But that is why the Necrons build the pillars (like on Cadia). They contain and eleminate warp breachs. And as seen in The Serpent Beneath, can cause warp storms. That both prevent travel and communication via astropath.

The Necron endgame trumps any race that depends on the warp. Especially Chaos because they literally have no answer for them.

= Tome of Fate page 107: The Necrons are anathema to the forces of Chaos, but especially to the servents of Tzeentch. They have no souls to corrupt, their every action is orders and logical to the point of impossibility, and their living metal bodies are entirely resistant to the mutating effects of the warp.

 Stonerhino wrote:
You are missing the point. The Necrons literally have technology that shuts the warp down and are completely uncurruptable by Chaos.

The "Dice Gods" are pointless if the Necrons can figuratively prevent Chaos fom rolling any dice.

@Wyzilla: You are correct. But that is why the Necrons build the pillars (like on Cadia). They contain and eleminate warp breachs. And as seen in The Serpent Beneath, can cause warp storms. That both prevent travel and communication via astropath.

The Necron endgame trumps any race that depends on the warp. Especially Chaos because they literally have no answer for them.

= Tome of Fate page 107: The Necrons are anathema to the forces of Chaos, but especially to the servents of Tzeentch. They have no souls to corrupt, their every action is orders and logical to the point of impossibility, and their living metal bodies are entirely resistant to the mutating effects of the warp.

No, I got the point. You are missing the point when I say that a) The Warp will reach into another race to destroy that tech, as it has done in the past, 2) The Necrons are still sleepy and need to wake up first and III) Other Necron players have alluded to the fact that they may have tech that nullifies warp fields, but the Necrons themselves are still subject to taint, albiet highly resistant, and on top of that, they are succumbing to their own diseases and trauma's (like the Flayer Syndrome or w/e). If were more up and up about the Necrons, I could be more specific, but those are points that aren't just being carried by me. Other Necron fans are suggesting this as well.

End Game means "You beat everyone else, congrats." So yeah, the Necron End Game is imposing if they wake up fast enough. If they don't, see another races End Game (like Chaos).

And look, this isn't all based on conjecture, fandom and plot armor. If the Necrons have been devoured by Tyranids, and Chaos can push the Tyranids around with Warp Storms and Chaos Space Marines, then they could drive them towards Tomb Worlds and let the Tyranids run amok. Probably even help them by destroying some of that pesky tech in the process.

I've already given an example "Coreworld of Colchis" where the Necrons have been trumped by Chaos, and not even Chaos Marines but Chaos Daemons. So the Necrons are not immortal. Not anymore anyways. If they were, this wouldn't be Warhammer anymore. It would be Necron-hammer. Where Necron Dynasties are fighting each other and nothing else exists. Of course we can have Chaos-hammer too if their End Game pans out.

Also, the Dice Gods don't really exist in the WH40K universe. That is tabletop talk.

Whatever you said to Wyzilla doesn't make sense. They build pylons to prevent warp breaches....but they can cause warp storms.....and this prevents travel and communications which is relative to the non-warp using 'Crons? And as I put above, Chaos has an answer. It's called "Conspire to make others deal with your problems." That's how Chaos actually deals with most of their problems since the Ruinous Powers themselves are rooted to the Warp and unable to breach Real Space (yet).

Edit: Missed the quote the first time, but I'm wondering how many times a subject like that has been supposedly answered and changed. For example, the Chaos Gods have always existed...but they have Birthdays....or they did. We're not so sure now. ;>>

The Necron endgame also includes cutting the warp off from the material universe. Whichs means no warp travel, no psykers, no warp storms and no way for Chaos to currupt another race. It would be the same as trying to play a game of 40k when one side gets to roll no dice.

It is not a matter of can Chaos defeat the Necrons in a battle. It is the fact that if that Tomb World had an active null field matrix then those deamons would not have even been there in the first place. Every world that has the matrix is effectively impossible for for Chaos to attack. Unless they use another race. Even then the attack is no different then if that race attacked on its own. Now if the Necrons construct pylons and use them to cause warp storms. Then no warp travel based race can get to them. Repeat this attack, install a null field then build pylons and there is nothing Chaos can do to stop it.

 Stonerhino wrote:
The Necron endgame also includes cutting the warp off from the material universe. Whichs means no warp travel, no psykers, no warp storms and no way for Chaos to currupt another race. It would be the same as trying to play a game of 40k when one side gets to roll no dice.

It is not a matter of can Chaos defeat the Necrons in a battle. It is the fact that if that Tomb World had an active null field matrix then those deamons would not have even been there in the first place. Every world that has the matrix is effectively impossible for for Chaos to attack. Unless they use another race. Even then the attack is no different then if that race attacked on its own. Now if the Necrons construct pylons and use them to cause warp storms. Then no warp travel based race can get to them. Repeat this attack, install a null field then build pylons and there is nothing Chaos can do to stop it.

-sigh- I'm not arguing with you about what the Necron End Game can do because it's the Necron End Game. I can say that in the Chaos End Game, they effectively destroy all the tomb worlds (using their own force or others enslaved), then enslave the Necrons outright with their null fields down and blah-blah-blah. That can happen because it's an End Game! But right now, the Necrons are not that race. They're sleepy, in some disrepair, maybe a little groggy and they're waking up with other races walking all over their caskets, some of them outright reliving that scene in Pandorum where the guy wakes up and is immediately eaten alive by the other mutants on the ship.

"Unless they use another race..." Absolutely right! They will use another race because that is how Chaos deals with problems like the Necrons, as opposed to just rolling over, dying and saying "Oh for f@#<s sakes!"

And it is considerably different when a force is being herded by Chaos as opposed to them just attacking on their own. First and foremost, Chaos is going to drive them towards Chaos' objective, and once that objective is down, get ready for the s#!7 to hit the fan because it will. Tyranids may not focus on a null field generator unless they had the idea planted in their heads somehow. Same with Orks. Actually MORE with Orks because they're not very resistant to the Warp in the first place, and they don't really care either.

Now what is this crap about "Pylons can make Warpstorms that the Warp-born are affected by?" This is funny to me. This is like saying the pylons can create daemons to fight off the daemons long enough for a null field to be put up? Or is this why Chaos can't use other races, because the storm will block them off? Because this is fool, once again, since a large determining factor of getting through the warp in the first place is with the Chaos God's blessings themselves. On top of that, you're still assuming that these pylons get up faster than either Chaos or any other force can get their to stop them, which Chaos would absolutely never let happen considering they are relatively omnipotent and will bond together if the strength of one is not enough to get a job done that threatens the Warp. They've done it before. They'll do it again.

Look... it is the height of arrogance to say "No matter what you do, we'll win" because the creative mind (and trust me, the Warp is the most creative mind in the entire universe, hands down) will always find a way around such claims. This is like Dorn saying "My fortresses are indestructible!" Sorry boss. You're wrong. There are Iron Warriors with the exact opposite claim.

So, in the Necron End Game, do the Necrons win? Sure. No argument there.
Just like in the Chaos End Game, Chaos wins.

They've got to get there first and the Necrons are not invulnerable, as I have proven over and again. And that really should be the end of the discussion since I'm giving you what you are saying with the addendum of "if they get there in the first place." Which they likely won't.

Logistically, it's impossible when you consider the threats their little niche is under.

>

In my honest opinion, none of the factions can actually beat Necrons. They simply cannot lose in a total war vs. present races because the galaxy is their b**ch.

If they ever get overwhelmed, they can just force a stalemate by blowing up the galaxy with the Celestial Orrery. Hell, they don't need to blow up the whole galaxy. They can pick strategicaly important stars that will cause minimal hurt to them and stop the invading force from advancing.

They won't use the Orrery so light-handedly because it will disrupt the balance of the celestial bodies, but if they ever get cornered... Well, the balance of the universe is not the priority.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I thought the god-awful third edition retcrons were bad, but this new stuff seems just as mary sue overpowered. I'm always annoyed by the 'but my dad can beat up your dad!' posturing by these no-weakness, completely invulnerable so why don't you just pack up and go home factions. Why were they even written into the background if there is no way for them to be beaten? It's dull.

They can be beaten, by savagery they don't understand. This is where Humans would end up beating the necrons, in Guerilla warfare.
They were defeated en masse by what was essentially mindless mongols on horses using pretty primitive technology. They deal in logistics, but there is no logistics in madness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Broly wrote:
In my honest opinion, none of the factions can actually beat Necrons. They simply cannot lose in a total war vs. present races because the galaxy is their b**ch.

If they ever get overwhelmed, they can just force a stalemate by blowing up the galaxy with the Celestial Orrery. Hell, they don't need to blow up the whole galaxy. They can pick strategicaly important stars that will cause minimal hurt to them and stop the invading force from advancing.

They won't use the Orrery so light-handedly because it will disrupt the balance of the celestial bodies, but if they ever get cornered... Well, the balance of the universe is not the priority.

The faction in charge of the Orray would never let that happen, and would actually probably team up with the Imperium to defend it from other Necrons. They see themselves as guardians of the galaxy and keeping it stable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Broly wrote:
In my honest opinion, none of the factions can actually beat Necrons. They simply cannot lose in a total war vs. present races because the galaxy is their b**ch.

If they ever get overwhelmed, they can just force a stalemate by blowing up the galaxy with the Celestial Orrery. Hell, they don't need to blow up the whole galaxy. They can pick strategicaly important stars that will cause minimal hurt to them and stop the invading force from advancing.

They won't use the Orrery so light-handedly because it will disrupt the balance of the celestial bodies, but if they ever get cornered... Well, the balance of the universe is not the priority.

If all the Orks united under a Waaaagh they'd smash anything in the Imperium. Necrons counter military tactics, they struggle to deal with absolute chaotic madness, which the Orks would bring in plenty.

If all the Orks united under a Waaaagh they'd smash anything in the Imperium. Necrons counter military tactics, they struggle to deal with absolute chaotic madness, which the Orks would bring in plenty.

This isn't actually true. Imotekh struggles with Orks, because of the lack of Logic. Other Nemesors and Phaerons have no such compunction, as demonstrated by Zahndrekh for instance.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
The Necron endgame also includes cutting the warp off from the material universe. Whichs means no warp travel, no psykers, no warp storms and no way for Chaos to currupt another race. It would be the same as trying to play a game of 40k when one side gets to roll no dice.

It is not a matter of can Chaos defeat the Necrons in a battle. It is the fact that if that Tomb World had an active null field matrix then those deamons would not have even been there in the first place. Every world that has the matrix is effectively impossible for for Chaos to attack. Unless they use another race. Even then the attack is no different then if that race attacked on its own. Now if the Necrons construct pylons and use them to cause warp storms. Then no warp travel based race can get to them. Repeat this attack, install a null field then build pylons and there is nothing Chaos can do to stop it.

-sigh- I'm not arguing with you about what the Necron End Game can do because it's the Necron End Game. I can say that in the Chaos End Game, they effectively destroy all the tomb worlds (using their own force or others enslaved), then enslave the Necrons outright with their null fields down and blah-blah-blah. That can happen because it's an End Game! But right now, the Necrons are not that race. They're sleepy, in some disrepair, maybe a little groggy and they're waking up with other races walking all over their caskets, some of them outright reliving that scene in Pandorum where the guy wakes up and is immediately eaten alive by the other mutants on the ship.

"Unless they use another race..." Absolutely right! They will use another race because that is how Chaos deals with problems like the Necrons, as opposed to just rolling over, dying and saying "Oh for f@#<s sakes!"

And it is considerably different when a force is being herded by Chaos as opposed to them just attacking on their own. First and foremost, Chaos is going to drive them towards Chaos' objective, and once that objective is down, get ready for the s#!7 to hit the fan because it will. Tyranids may not focus on a null field generator unless they had the idea planted in their heads somehow. Same with Orks. Actually MORE with Orks because they're not very resistant to the Warp in the first place, and they don't really care either.

Now what is this crap about "Pylons can make Warpstorms that the Warp-born are affected by?" This is funny to me. This is like saying the pylons can create daemons to fight off the daemons long enough for a null field to be put up? Or is this why Chaos can't use other races, because the storm will block them off? Because this is fool, once again, since a large determining factor of getting through the warp in the first place is with the Chaos God's blessings themselves. On top of that, you're still assuming that these pylons get up faster than either Chaos or any other force can get their to stop them, which Chaos would absolutely never let happen considering they are relatively omnipotent and will bond together if the strength of one is not enough to get a job done that threatens the Warp. They've done it before. They'll do it again.

Look... it is the height of arrogance to say "No matter what you do, we'll win" because the creative mind (and trust me, the Warp is the most creative mind in the entire universe, hands down) will always find a way around such claims. This is like Dorn saying "My fortresses are indestructible!" Sorry boss. You're wrong. There are Iron Warriors with the exact opposite claim.

So, in the Necron End Game, do the Necrons win? Sure. No argument there.
Just like in the Chaos End Game, Chaos wins.

They've got to get there first and the Necrons are not invulnerable, as I have proven over and again. And that really should be the end of the discussion since I'm giving you what you are saying with the addendum of "if they get there in the first place." Which they likely won't.

Logistically, it's impossible when you consider the threats their little niche is under.

>

Please explain how you can believe that another race can reach the Necrons when they can create warp storms to isolate anywhere they build the pylons. Actually they don't even need to build them. The Serpent Beneath shows us they only need one. Which they can transport there with them. And as shown in IA 12 the Necrons are more then capable of tearing apart large chunks of space when they want to.

We also have active Tomb Worlds that exist in Warp storms who suffer no ill effect. Who run around attacking the Chaos controlled worlds whenever they want.

Chaos vs Necrons. Necrons win hands down.

Chaos + other races vs Necrons only have a chance if the Necrons never unit under a single banner.

The whole premise of Chaos not only beating the Necrons to the punch but winning a war of attrition against them is flawed. Because any race they use will need to be able to defeat the Necrons while cut off from Chaos/the warp. Failing that they can never truely win against the Necrons. Isolated exceptions will exist but never mistake them for a rule.

He is also forgetting, that this is a situation where the Necrons are all fully awake and functioning, with all their tech.

Chaos doesn't have a snowflakes chance in hell.

Oh, and during the time of the Necrons, the warp was calm and the gods weren't around yet. The warp only really became the warp we know after the old ones propagated the mortal, psyker able races. So no, chaos did not have a long game planned.

I don't think that the Necrons have an auto win in this at all, particularly because of the Warp. I know it has been said that they have ways of shutting the Warp down but that would take time and a lot of effort. The Necrons may have a superior Navy but it takes them centuries, possibly even longer, to get anywhere while the Imperium could just run circles around them by using Warp travel to do in days what it would take the Necrons centuries to do. During the war with the Eldar, once the Eldar started to use the warp, the Necrons lost. It's the reason they went to sleep in the first place so unless the Necrons could shut down the Warp from almost day 1 or a very short time, I don't think they would win that easily even with psychic blanks. One touch with the warp and the Necrons cease to exist. I think people are severely underestimating the power of the Warp. It would take a massive undertaking galaxy wide to shut it down and that is without disruptions. The mobility of the Imperium gives them a serious edge even if technology is on their side.

That being said, I have always admired the Necrons because they are the one army that could defeat Chaos once and for all because they are the antithesis to the warp and every other race besides them is dependent on the warp to live even the Imperium. You shut off the warp like the Necrons want to do and you have won against all other races. But the warp isn't that easily defeated which is why the Necrons haven't steam rolled everyone. For me that is what is comes down to, for who would win this fight, whether or not the and for how long the warp exists. It isn't as cut and dry as some people think.

I believe the new codex says there are more Necron worlds than Imperial ones. Somehow there are several million Necron planets so ya, they would win.

. The Necrons may have a superior Navy but it takes them centuries, possibly even longer, to get anywhere while the Imperium could just run circles around them by using Warp travel to do in days what it would take the Necrons centuries to do

Ah... no. The Necron navy is now one of the fastest in the galaxy. Their Dolmen Gates and Inertialess drive are far faster, safer and more reliable than the Warp.

During the war with the Eldar, once the Eldar started to use the warp, the Necrons lost.

Um, no? The Necrons killed the things that created the Eldar and the Orks, and then turned around and killed their own gods. The Eldar did not "start to use the Warp", they had been using it since the very beginning,and had gotten pretty much wtfpwned until the Necrons turned their attention to the C'Tan. It was the losses suffered during that war that caused the Silent King to command his people to basically hibernate to bide their time.

It's the reason they went to sleep in the first place so unless the Necrons could shut down the Warp from almost day 1 or a very short time, I don't think they would win that easily even with psychic blanks. One touch with the warp and the Necrons cease to exist.

Ah, no, actually... it was the transference into Necrodermis that allowed the Necrons to enter the Warp directly (via Warp gates, Web-Way gates and the like) and kill the Old Ones. The C'Tan could not enter the Warp at all.

I think people are severely underestimating the power of the Warp. It would take a massive undertaking galaxy wide to shut it down and that is without disruptions. The mobility of the Imperium gives them a serious edge even if technology is on their side.

I don't think you're very familiar with the Necron history or the War in Heaven, nor are you aware that the technological edge sits with the Necrons, always. That is their bag, technology... and it is through their technology that they get all the other tricks they get (like immortality, time-travel, respawn, better true FTL than anyone, etc.).

 Psienesis wrote:

. The Necrons may have a superior Navy but it takes them centuries, possibly even longer, to get anywhere while the Imperium could just run circles around them by using Warp travel to do in days what it would take the Necrons centuries to do

Ah... no. The Necron navy is now one of the fastest in the galaxy. Their Dolmen Gates and Inertialess drive are far faster, safer and more reliable than the Warp.

During the war with the Eldar, once the Eldar started to use the warp, the Necrons lost.

Um, no? The Necrons killed the things that created the Eldar and the Orks, and then turned around and killed their own gods. The Eldar did not "start to use the Warp", they had been using it since the very beginning,and had gotten pretty much wtfpwned until the Necrons turned their attention to the C'Tan. It was the losses suffered during that war that caused the Silent King to command his people to basically hibernate to bide their time.

It's the reason they went to sleep in the first place so unless the Necrons could shut down the Warp from almost day 1 or a very short time, I don't think they would win that easily even with psychic blanks. One touch with the warp and the Necrons cease to exist.

Ah, no, actually... it was the transference into Necrodermis that allowed the Necrons to enter the Warp directly (via Warp gates, Web-Way gates and the like) and kill the Old Ones. The C'Tan could not enter the Warp at all.

I think people are severely underestimating the power of the Warp. It would take a massive undertaking galaxy wide to shut it down and that is without disruptions. The mobility of the Imperium gives them a serious edge even if technology is on their side.

I don't think you're very familiar with the Necron history or the War in Heaven, nor are you aware that the technological edge sits with the Necrons, always. That is their bag, technology... and it is through their technology that they get all the other tricks they get (like immortality, time-travel, respawn, better true FTL than anyone, etc.).

It specifically states that even with their technology, that they have to enter a stasis crypts as they move between star systems and never could move like the Old Ones who could move around the galaxy in mere seconds. It was one of the things that the Necrontyr were so jealous of the Old Ones for in the first place. No matter how far advanced their technology got, they could never match the Old Ones. It was the reason they had to turn to the C'Tan because the Old Ones and the Eldar outmaneuvered them using the warp and the webway passages which caused the Necrontyr to ally with the C'Tan in the first place. So with the help of the C'Tan, they created the Dolmen Gates as a means of entering the Web-way without the need of having psykers which led to the destruction of the Old Ones. The problem? In the 60 million years that the Necrons have been asleep, the Eldar have gone around and destroyed most of them. There are a few which have made Necron expansion a problem in some systems but it certainly is not galaxy wide. Also, with the birth of Slaanesh and the fall of the Eldar, the Webway has collapsed and become twisted so one wrong turn and that Necron ship is lost for good as well as the Eldar having technology now that detects the interruptions in the Webway that the Dolmen Gates create and provides a way for the Eldar to quickly shut it so there is also that problem facing the Necron. The edge that the Necrons had to defeat the Old Ones is gone and it isn't coming back since they had a war with C'Tan as well.

The Necron technology is far superior, there is no arguing that but the problem here is logistics and with the Necrons having to rely on their old technology to get around, it will be a harder fight then they used to have even with their vast amounts of technology. And the Necrodermis does not allow them to enter the warp, only the Dolmen Gates allowed them to enter the Webway tunnels. If a Necron comes into contact with the Immatrium, they cease to exist. Opening a warp rift big enough, could tear a Necron force asunder so it depends if the Imperium would get that desperate to do that but I could see that they could especially in the face of that large of Necrons, I could see the Imperium doing it. It's not like they are wanting for psykers, got plenty of them to gather and tear a hole in reality.

All I was arguing is that I don't think it is as cut and dry as people think. The warp is a significant force for the Necrons to face and they don't have the bag of tricks that they had back when they fought the Old Ones, the Eldar made sure of that when they went to sleep. I am not saying that the Imperium would win hands down either. It would be an interesting fight with a whole lot more factors in it than who has the better technology.

Necrontyr=/=Necrons.

Man you are confusing the Hell out of the lore. They could only move using stasis crypts when they were the necrontyr.

Did you also forget that necrons have null field technology? They dont even NEED to enter the warp, they just ignore it.

The Eldar have also NOT killed most of them. There are millions of tomb worlds to have yet been awakened, and this is a situation where ALL OF THEM are fully awake and functioning with all their technology at their disposal.

Please know what you are talking about before you begin talking.

IA 12 show the Necrons traveling beyond light speed. Don't get caught up on the hyperbole of them being isolated without the Dolman gates. Its only relative to the speed of the webway.

It was only the Old Ones that out maneuvered the Necrontyr. Who are already stated to be more technologically advanced then the Old Ones. The Eldar were a rush job post "Necron" because the Old Ones were getting their behinds handed to them.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Necrontyr=/=Necrons.

This. Pretty much everything on pages 6 and 7 of the Necron codex can be ignored for the purposes of their current technology, IA12 is the best indication. FTL drives, throwing fragments of dead stars (mini-black holes?) at people, an incredibly agile and maneuverable fleet, coupled with the Dolmen Gates.

 Envihon wrote:
Also, with the birth of Slaanesh and the fall of the Eldar, the Webway has collapsed and become twisted so one wrong turn and that Necron ship is lost for good as well as the Eldar having technology now that detects the interruptions in the Webway that the Dolmen Gates create and provides a way for the Eldar to quickly shut it so there is also that problem facing the Necron.

Necrons are the masters of technology, calculations, logical conclusions, and seeing possible futures (Granted Eldar seers can see the future more clearly, but Necrons see many thousands of possible futures and extrapolate the most likely course of events using prior knowledge and logic). The chances of them making a "wrong turn", therefore, are laughably small. Also, the Eldar have no such technology to shut the Webway down - the Webway itself does that. Sounds like the same problem, but if the Eldar were doing it then it'd be a lot harder to get through, but the Webway can be fooled, and indeed that's exactly how the Necrons use it.

The codex says that the Necrons would be forced to use their slow going stasis ships if they lost their Dolmen Gates. Not the Necrontyr, the Necrons.
The possibility of FTL has never really been removed, even if you could travel ten times the speed light, it would take you thousands of years to cross the galaxy, so isolation is still very possible.
Also unless I missed something IA12 doesn't show any FTL capabilities, the Necron fleet show up and disappear quickly to be sure, but the codex notes that they can hide in out-of-phase reality.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Necrontyr=/=Necrons.

This. Pretty much everything on pages 6 and 7 of the Necron codex can be ignored for the purposes of their current technology, IA12 is the best indication. FTL drives, throwing fragments of dead stars (mini-black holes?) at people, an incredibly agile and maneuverable fleet, coupled with the Dolmen Gates.

 Envihon wrote:
Also, with the birth of Slaanesh and the fall of the Eldar, the Webway has collapsed and become twisted so one wrong turn and that Necron ship is lost for good as well as the Eldar having technology now that detects the interruptions in the Webway that the Dolmen Gates create and provides a way for the Eldar to quickly shut it so there is also that problem facing the Necron.

Necrons are the masters of technology, calculations, logical conclusions, and seeing possible futures (Granted Eldar seers can see the future more clearly, but Necrons see many thousands of possible futures and extrapolate the most likely course of events using prior knowledge and logic). The chances of them making a "wrong turn", therefore, are laughably small. Also, the Eldar have no such technology to shut the Webway down - the Webway itself does that. Sounds like the same problem, but if the Eldar were doing it then it'd be a lot harder to get through, but the Webway can be fooled, and indeed that's exactly how the Necrons use it.

It's hilarious to me that you'd compare basically an insurance statistician/actuary (necron), to precognition (eldar). The two are so different that for you to lump a computer doing statistical analysis with what the Eldar do just has me sitting here SMDH.

Niexist wrote:
It's hilarious to me that you'd compare basically an insurance statistician/actuary (necron), to precognition (eldar). The two are so different that for you to lump a computer doing statistical analysis with what the Eldar do just has me sitting here SMDH.

"Orikan is a consummate astromancer, able to calculate the events of the future from the patterns of the stars. Thus did he know of the Fall of the Eldar, the Rise of Man, the Horus Heresy and the coming of the Tyranids many thousands of years before they came to pass. Through careful study and scrutiny, Orikan can divine lesser occurrences: the movement of fleets, the destinies of indiciduals, even the strategies undertaken by campaigning armies..."

There is another, more specific quote that states pretty much exactly what I said about the Eldar being more focused, but for the life of me I can't find it, I'm still looking though.

Scarey Nerd wrote:
There is another, more specific quote that states pretty much exactly what I said about the Eldar being more focused, but for the life of me I can't find it, I'm still looking though.

Under the Carnac Campaign in the time line section, page 27.
"Though Orikan's divinations are by no means as focused as those of Starbane, they are sufficient to tangle the skeins of fate and leave many details beyond the Farseer's reach."

Animus wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:
There is another, more specific quote that states pretty much exactly what I said about the Eldar being more focused, but for the life of me I can't find it, I'm still looking though.

Under the Carnac Campaign in the time line section, page 27.
"Though Orikan's divinations are by no means as focused as those of Starbane, they are sufficient to tangle the skeins of fate and leave many details beyond the Farseer's reach."

Thank you, that must be the one I was thinking of, I must have mixed it up thinking it spoke of all astromancers; though it does add a new ability to the Necrons: The ability to foil warp-based precognition.

I have to say, even though I do dearly like my crons, their fluff is just terrible in some cases.

It's like that one friend that always chose the most OP character in a fighting game, or played crossiantwing in early 6th. Necrons are meant to be the polar opposite of Orks (at least, that's how I read it) yet they do seem to be fairly sue ish, and their flaws as a race aren't expanded on (such as Orks' animosity, IoM's uselessness, or Chaos' reliance on Warp based shenanigans. Makes me sad, is all.

but yeah, Necrons win, gg wp no re IoM.

The Necrons basically have magic now. They just call it super-duper-science.

Scarey Nerd wrote:


"Orikan is a consummate astromancer, able to calculate the events of the future from the patterns of the stars. Thus did he know of the Fall of the Eldar, the Rise of Man, the Horus Heresy and the coming of the Tyranids many thousands of years before they came to pass. Through careful study and scrutiny, Orikan can divine lesser occurrences: the movement of fleets, the destinies of indiciduals, even the strategies undertaken by campaigning armies..."

There is another, more specific quote that states pretty much exactly what I said about the Eldar being more focused, but for the life of me I can't find it, I'm still looking though.

This is just garbage mary sue fluff in my opinion, and really makes me want to write Necrons completely out of my head-cannon like I have with ultramarines.

Niexist wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:


"Orikan is a consummate astromancer, able to calculate the events of the future from the patterns of the stars. Thus did he know of the Fall of the Eldar, the Rise of Man, the Horus Heresy and the coming of the Tyranids many thousands of years before they came to pass. Through careful study and scrutiny, Orikan can divine lesser occurrences: the movement of fleets, the destinies of indiciduals, even the strategies undertaken by campaigning armies..."

There is another, more specific quote that states pretty much exactly what I said about the Eldar being more focused, but for the life of me I can't find it, I'm still looking though.

This is just garbage mary sue fluff in my opinion, and really makes me want to write Necrons completely out of my head-cannon like I have with ultramarines.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't, and I use this word in the loosest possible way for obvious reasons, true.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Niexist wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:


"Orikan is a consummate astromancer, able to calculate the events of the future from the patterns of the stars. Thus did he know of the Fall of the Eldar, the Rise of Man, the Horus Heresy and the coming of the Tyranids many thousands of years before they came to pass. Through careful study and scrutiny, Orikan can divine lesser occurrences: the movement of fleets, the destinies of indiciduals, even the strategies undertaken by campaigning armies..."

There is another, more specific quote that states pretty much exactly what I said about the Eldar being more focused, but for the life of me I can't find it, I'm still looking though.

This is just garbage mary sue fluff in my opinion, and really makes me want to write Necrons completely out of my head-cannon like I have with ultramarines.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't, and I use this word in the loosest possible way for obvious reasons, true.

Sure it does, that's the great thing about head cannon with fiction. If I don't like it, I can just ignore it, because in my opinion it does absolutely nothing to add to the setting and is the biproduct of terrible writing.
In my head cannon ultramarines aren't the epitomy of space marines that everyones aspires to be like whose geneseed makes up 60% of all chapters because it doesn't add anything to the setting and is just a biproduct of one writers Mary Sue-ism. Same thing with future-telling space robots, it makes no sense and adds absolutely NOTHING to the setting whatsoever. Just like ultramarines who everyone wants to be like it discounts an entire faction(the eldar) and I don't like when writers decide to take a dump on other factions the way Ward did to all other space marines with Ultramarines, and the way whoever wrote about the future-telling ability of the Necrons did to the eldar.

Have a nice day.

Except your idea of the canon means nothing, to be blunt

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Except your idea of the canon means nothing, to be blunt

Had to wait for the maintenance to be over, got beaten to it Yeah, as much as I appreciate head-canon (I'd love to retcon the entirety of the Grey Knights out of the game), it has no bearing on a discussion like this.

Surely everyone that says Necrons is not taking the size of the Imperium properly into account.

Isn't the Imperial Navy supposed to comprise of like, a billion ships?

How could any race stand against that?

All this talk of Orks has me wondering how they would fare in an endgame scenario. Naturally, we're assuming they all unite under one banner the same as the Necrons. They have the numbers by a clear margin, I'm pretty sure I remember reading that most of the worlds in the galaxy are infested with Orks, that has to be billions at the very least. You might want to say Orks have a massive disadvantage in terms of technology, but I'm not so sure the gap is that wide. Orks are the undisputed master of certain technologies, most notably tractor beams, which they make use of far more than anybody else. We've been shown many times that while a lot of Orks Meks aren't anything special, there are plenty of individual figures who have an instinctive grasp of technology great than almost anyone else. The Necrons may have mastered many things, but they have done so through millennia of hard thinking and development. An Ork Mek is born knowing at the very least basic technology, in some cases reality manipulation, force fields, whatever powers tractor beams, warp travel. These are things that other races worked towards as a group, but Meks have figured out pretty much on their own. With every Ork united, this is intesified greatly for two main reasons. Firstly, there must by dozens of Orkish geniuses that never got off the ground because they were on feral worlds, or didn't have the space hulk(s) required for a Waaagh, or simply never got the chance to show off their inventions for ny number of reasons. In this scenario, all of these Meks would have a chance to contribute. There might be one who mastered black hole generation or large-scale gravity manipulation. Secondly, the Meks will be working together. Combine tractor beam technology with warp manipulation and you could force Necron vessels or vehicles into warp breaches. There's almost no end to what could be achieved with every Ork Mek in the galaxy could achieve together - they don't have to play by the rules because the orkish psyche enables them to volate the laws of physics on a whim.

Speaking of the Orkish psyche, it's another large advantage. The more Orks you have in one place, the more powerful there technology becomes, empowered by their belief. With every Ork in the galaxy united in a single horde, there's no such thing as impossible. The Necrons can destroy stars, but the Orks might fling them into Necron fleets or use them to roast tomb worlds to vapour. Additionally, the Necrons want to restore their empire. They still fear the end of their civilisation. Orks have no such worry. The greatest war in the history of conflict is only going to make them all the more eager to throw themselves into battle. Then there's the Orkish gods. We already have examples of them stepping briefly into the material realm at the site of large battles to give the Orks a helping hand. With every Ork united, they could permanently inhabit a battlefield - and they're described as so strong the other gods are merely inconsequential to them. They would be an enormous advantage for the Orkish side in any ground conflict. In space, it would depend upon what the Orkish Meks could cook up. Orks would have the numbers advantage, so they wouldn't actually need to be quite equal to what the Necrons can do, but they would need to be close.

As far as strategy goes, the Orkish way of war is highly illogical, which is as mentioned something the Necrons find difficult to deal with. Additionally, although Orks are generally not strategists, through sheer numbers and those one-in-a-million geniuses working together, they could concievably come up with strategies to confoud their opponents without great difficulty - although of course the same is true in reverse. Strategy is definitely the weakest point of the Orks, but with so many working together - how much strategy do you really need with a trillion troops and uncountable war machines to throw at the opponent?

 mattyrm wrote:
Surely everyone that says Necrons is not taking the size of the Imperium properly into account.

Isn't the Imperial Navy supposed to comprise of like, a billion ships?

How could any race stand against that?

By having more and/or better stuff. The Imperium is usually said to be about a million worlds, while the Necrons are said to possess many millions.

Only Imotehk is the one completely befuddled by orks, other Nemesors are quite adept at fighting them.

 mattyrm wrote:
Surely everyone that says Necrons is not taking the size of the Imperium properly into account.

Isn't the Imperial Navy supposed to comprise of like, a billion ships?

How could any race stand against that?

From the BFG rulebook, the Imperial fleet per sector is about 50 to 75 ships of all sizes (capital ship down to escort). The Gothic system had 71 systems of note listed in the BFG rulebook. At 1 million systems in the Imperium, that is about 14,085 sectors (rounded up). That gives a maximum upper limit of about 1,056,735 total ships in the Imperial Navy. This is probably an overestimate because the example of the Calixis Sector shows there are numerous more minor inhabited systems in a sector, so the number of sectors in the Imperium is probably less than 14,085.

In the Fall of Orpheus FW book, the reinforced Imperial sector fleet was shown to comprise 7 battleships (including 1 Retribution and 1 Apocalypse class), "more than 60" cruisers and capital ships, "several hundred" escort class vessels, 4 Space Marine battle barges, and 8 Space Marine strike cruisers.

Facing them, the Necrons are described as fielding less than a quarter of the Imperial ship numbers. The breakdown was 2 Tombships, 20 harvest ships, and the rest escort class vessels, with some later confirmed to be Dirge class raiders.

Though the breakdown of Imperial losses was never completely given, the narrative showed that Imperial losses as at least 2 battleships, 1 battlecruiser, 1 heavy cruiser, 2 battle barges, 3 strike cruisers. In the end, less than 10% of the Imperial fleet was still fit for combat. Little detail was shown of Necron losses with the only definite details being 1 destroyed harvest ship and damage to 1 Tombship. The other Tombship was shown to remain fully operational at the end.

In terms of size, FW has definitely taken to upping everything to ever higher limits. The BFG supplement Warp Storm gives the Battle of Callavell in the Age of Apostacy as one of the largest "set-piece" battles in Imperial history, In that, the Imperial force fielded 8 battleships, 5 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 5 heavy cruisers, 9 cruisers, and 6 light cruisers for a total of 37 capital ships. The renegade forces in that battle fielded 6 battleships, 4 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 9 heavy cruisers, 11 cruisers, and 8 light cruisers for a total of 46 capital ships.

So in other words, a single Necron dynasty awakened and within 1 year met and virtually wiped out one of the largest Imperial fleets in the history of the Imperium with modest almost minimal losses. This single dynasty goes on to take out 60 worlds in 100 days, essentially gutting the sector, and it fights off the Imperial counterattack sufficiently that 7 years later after the initial Necron attack, the Imperium dissolves the Orpheus sector.

The events in the FW book are also given a nod and canonized with the reference to the destruction of the Angels Revenant chapter (the SM chapter in the Orpheus sector) in the SM Codex, which was what occurred in the FW book.

Do I like the Necrons being set up as a Mary Sue faction? No, but canonically as written, they have engaged the Imperium in one of the largest fleet battles in the entire history of the Imperium at worse than 1:4 numerical odds and come out with minor losses and damage, while 90% of the Imperial fleet was destroyed or rendered unfit for further combat. The problem with this is that then writers end up having to pull plot armor and deus ex machina solutions or make the Necrons idiots in any story for the human protagonists to prevail.