for a scenario that will see a sororitas strike force rescuing there sisters from the enemy. im looking for inspiration for special rules and background info,
why would nurgle,khorne,tzeentch,slaanesh capture them and what would they do to them. besides sacrificing them. and what would other races do with battle sister prisoners and what would there tortures and prisons look like for the terrain I mean tzeentch might use a maze to stop them escaping ,nurgle might drop the sisters in quick slime so the more they struggle the more there sucked in ect. how can these effects be shown on a table. use your imagination, thank you.
Rumbleguts wrote: Yeah, why assume they would do something different to a guardsman.
A Sister would likely be seen as a bigger prize by Chaos forces, since they're so devoted to the Emperor, as well as being potent symbols of the Imperial Creed. That could result in different treatment towards them.
Okay so to move away from all the implications of rape and sodomy, etc. . .
Perhaps a scientist is doing trial runs on a new interrogation serum of sorts that has to be tested on the most devoted individuals and he specifically requested Sisters to try and break.
Tzeentch: Turned into a Spawn/Corrupted/Let go/Shot/Mutated
Nurgle: Infected with a disease.
Slaanesh: Turned into some horrible piece of art.
Oh Throne why? Horrible piece of art.... (if anybody ever played the cat lady it's a pretty perfect depiction of one of the possible things slaanesh would do)
I did have an image of the Sisters being paraded around in grotesque bridal outfits as they were originally the Brides of the Emperor. I rather think that at least Slaanesh would find it hilarious to make them his brides instead.
Tzeentch: Turned into a Spawn/Corrupted/Let go/Shot/Mutated
Nurgle: Infected with a disease.
Though a Sister could probably resist those things. Their faith lets them resist warp trickery.
Soon a fate far worse than death at the hands of the plague visited itself upon the unfortunates of Subiaco Diablo. Those who had succumbed to the contagion rose once again, in the form of hideously decayed zombies, their recently dead flesh sloughing from their shuffling forms as they fell upon the survivors.
Throughout the plague, the Sisters of the Ermine Mantle remained unaffected, not one of the Sisters being afflicted by it. None that is, except for Sister Anastasia.
Tau: Either kill or imprison untill they join the Empire
Kroot: Eat
Tyranids: Eat
Necrons: Kill or use as an infiltrator via Mindshackle Scarabs
Eldar: Kill
Dark Eldar: Torture and imprison, while doing unspeakable things to them. I think there used to be some female slave models in the DE range. Maybe they are captured Sisters?
Rumbleguts wrote: Yeah, why assume they would do something different to a guardsman.
Because he wants to write a story with Sisters as the captives. He never suggested something different would happen to Guardsmen. They just wouldn't present in his story.
If you're wondering about the Chaos Gods themselves, I'd recommend picking up the Chaos Codex. It actually paints a picture of the Ruinous Powers strongholds like Tzeentch's Eternal Maze, Khorne's Brass Throne, Nurgle's Manse, and Slaanesh's 8 Circles of Hell, or whatever.
I think it's more accurate to say, what would happen if their servants, the Chaos Space Marines got a hold of some Sisters for a while. How would the scenery look and what are the Cultist Marines likely to do to draw favor.
And that is pretty exotic. There are such practices as tearing the skin from the palms of hands, ripping off peoples faces and nailing them to servitors metal faces, hanging their bodies over hell-fire to be consumed wholly while they are still "alive", etc. etc.
Ahriman puts it best: "As if there were limits to the imagination of atrocity."
Ofc, capturing a Sister alive is not always the best idea.
I recall some half-page story of a little shrine somewhere getting attacked by Dark Eldar raiders entering through a Webway Portal carried by the Archon. A retired Canoness and four Sisters guarded the shrine, not exactly a force to stop a full raid with. One of the Sisters took a holy relic from the vaults, dumped her armor and dressed in light robes so the Dark Eldar would capture her intead of shooting first. She was predictably picked up and also put on the Archon's Raider. After the raiders formed up for a return home she detonated the Vortex grenade, taking out the Archon, the only means to get home and a good chunk of the Dark Eldar force. The rest were hunted down over a period of months after some Space Marines arrived to help.
I'm guessing it rhymes with grape. Lots and lots of grape. At least virtually all US servicewomen who have been captured have been raped. I don't see why it would be that different 41,000 years from now.
Right, well less than 10 women have been captured since WW2...
And the 19000 cases number is complete BS. That was a self reported survey (aka the least statistically accurate) whose paper trail can't actually be documented by the IG, which used the weasel words 'sexual assault' which in DoD parlance includes all cases of sexual harrasment as well. Hell in congress the JCOS couldn't even say if the number was DoD wide, OR the actual uniformed service. That shows how reliable that data is. The entire victimhood campaign with this sexual assault nonsense is clearly transparent... By labeling everything from a creeper hitting on them to violent gangrape under the umbrella term 'sexual assault' AND including all the male victims (who, btw in the real world far outnumber the female victims) in the count they can induce gullible people into believing that their is a higher rate of brutal rape in the military than there is say, inside a supermax prison or the backstreets of Cuidad Juarez. If you had to sit through ONE of those idiotic SAPR classes while the JAG bloviated about sketchy statistical models used to prop up an obvious political move inside the Pentagon you would roll your eyes so hard they would screw right out and roll around on the deck.
I know you aren't in the service, since you actually believe that horse piss.
Silverthorne wrote: Right, well less than 10 women have been captured since WW2...
And the 19000 cases number is complete BS. That was a self reported survey (aka the least statistically accurate) whose paper trail can't actually be documented by the IG, which used the weasel words 'sexual assault' which in DoD parlance includes all cases of sexual harrasment as well. Hell in congress the JCOS couldn't even say if the number was DoD wide, OR the actual uniformed service. That shows how reliable that data is. The entire victimhood campaign with this sexual assault nonsense is clearly transparent... By labeling everything from a creeper hitting on them to violent gangrape under the umbrella term 'sexual assault' AND including all the male victims (who, btw in the real world far outnumber the female victims) in the count they can induce gullible people into believing that their is a higher rate of brutal rape in the military than there is say, inside a supermax prison or the backstreets of Cuidad Juarez. If you had to sit through ONE of those idiotic SAPR classes while the JAG bloviated about sketchy statistical models used to prop up an obvious political move inside the Pentagon you would roll your eyes so hard they would screw right out and roll around on the deck.
I know you aren't in the service, since you actually believe that horse piss.
Doesn't sound right. Don't see SoB surrendering to enemy forces. Bit to fanatical for that happen. Knocked out I can see.
Chaos forces = sacrifice to da Gods
Tau = left alone
Necron = Assimilate....sounds familiar with another race..
Eldar = Blade in the back or front
Dark Eldar = One heck of a show...or something really really evil if worked on by a Hermoucali
Orks = FDA grade A meat
I would imagine the SoB to be the suicide-before-surrender type. I'm more interested on why the strike force sees the captured sisters as worth saving.
Huron Blackheart captured a Cannoness of the Order of the Iron Rose and used her to bait a Sorcerer into enslaving his soul to a bottle that would feed the Hymadrya.
So the Sisters aren't too devout to be sacrificed to the Chaos Gods. In fact, it's suggested that it happens all to frequently actually and that Chaos "has a taste" for the Emperor's Daughters, since they seem to be the most devout of the bunch.
Gerbil13 wrote: for a scenario that will see a sororitas strike force rescuing there sisters from the enemy. im looking for inspiration for special rules and background info,
why would nurgle,khorne,tzeentch,slaanesh capture them and what would they do to them. besides sacrificing them. and what would other races do with battle sister prisoners and what would there tortures and prisons look like for the terrain I mean tzeentch might use a maze to stop them escaping ,nurgle might drop the sisters in quick slime so the more they struggle the more there sucked in ect. how can these effects be shown on a table. use your imagination, thank you.
The real question is what is the goal of Chaos for this mission? What are they after? If you don't have that then why are you jumping ahead to what Chaos would be trying to do to them if you don't have a reason for them to be there?
Honestly corrupting/controlling them/breaking the wills of mortals so they serve Chaos is always an option. Possesion is a common favorite, as is tricking the mortals into harming themselves or others. Be creative and don't get too fixated on any one specific army, ideally you'd honestly want the option to use this with any army vs Chaos and if you do it well then you can.
Wilytank wrote: I would imagine the SoB to be the suicide-before-surrender type. I'm more interested on why the strike force sees the captured sisters as worth saving.
The sisters themselves may not be worth saving. However, any data core or some such thing that might happen to be in their possession at the time of their capture very well could be worth everything to protect/retrieve. In that light, if its Chaos that has done the capturing, whomever is being sent in to do the rescuing/retrieving is probably under order to irradicate any survivors and not even bother with the rescue part. Them being tainted in all. In fact that may be why the sisters are being held hostage in the first place. Some upstart chaos lord got the data, but can't read it, and is now finding all sorts of interesting ways of getting the sisters willing to translate it for him. Dead sisters can't reveal secrets. But turned/tortured sisters just might, and if not, it would be amusing to see them crack in the first place.
Dark Eldar: Torture and imprison, while doing unspeakable things to them. I think there used to be some female slave models in the DE range. Maybe they are captured Sisters?
Actually, there were two female human slavegirl models in the DE range (they were decorations on the DE big-bad SC's vehicle) and one of them actually *was* a Sister of Battle. I own a few, myself for sprinkling onto my Slaanesh Traitor Guard army.
The interesting thing about the model is that she has apparently gotten her hands on a sharp piece of DE armor spike without anyone noticing, and she's holding it like a dagger behind her back. If anything, the model suggests that a Sister who gets captured doesn't take the whole affair lying down.
I would imagine that Tzeentch would be a bit more imaginative in his plans for a force of Sororitas. Maybe hoodwinking them into believing an ally is guilty of heresy or colluding with xenos? And Nurgle worshippers may turn them into a bunch of disease hosts to return home with.
Well I do remember an Incident were an Emperor Children Warband captured a sister. By the end of it she was running the Entire Warband with a bunch of Emperor Children Terminators being her bodyguard. *points to avatar* She was only answerable to a daemon prince.
The previously-mentioned character, Miriael Sabathiel, is a non-studio character from a 40K-themed CCG and a short story.
Per the studio, going back as far as there have been mentions of the Sororitas in their Codices, the Sisters of Battle are utterly incorruptible, both to supernatural and mundane sources. Can't get them to worship Chaos, can't even bribe them.
I hate threads like these. They fill my mind with disturbing images that make me sad and nauseous.
That said, my army's fluff involves a force of Sisters of Battle being sent to capture a psyker on an Imperial planet who's captured some Chaos Space Marines and turned them into his own personal army. They get into a firefight with the psyker and his servants and allies, with the psyker claiming victory. But, this particular psyker doesn't enjoy killing, so he makes use of a particular type of technology he has at his disposal, which heals the Sororitas' wounds and even revives them from death. The technology works its way into the Sisters' brains, and starts to turn their thoughts against them. For some, their training and the power of faith destroys, expels, or disables the tiny machines. Some end up succumbing to their own minds. The ones that resisted played along, and planned some highly successful sabotage efforts, including two of them getting their hands on Vortex grenades and making it their personal mission to kill the psyker at any cost (which it seemed that they had accomplished, until the psyker poofed back into reality months later). Still another threw a fuel-air grenade into the armory as the turned Sisters were arming to deal with the crisis going on. A couple of years after the psyker returned, they launched a highly successful sabotage of the planet's FTL engine, dropping it into a warzone where it somehow survived. Oh yeah, the locals were pissed at the Imperium's usage of their people as fodder, so they built interstellar engines into their planet to escape the Imperium, in a manner inspired by the Eldar Craftworlds.
The Sisters that were turned still had their faith, their religion, they were just convinced that maybe not everything that was different needed killing. The psyker didn't violate them or torture them or anything, he basically just sheltered them and helped guide their journey into a more moral existence than just killing everything that doesn't agree with them.
It's all based on a series of text roleplays I've been doing with my friend over the past several years. We've incorporated stuff from multiple different IPs into our roleplays, primarily including Star Trek and Warcraft (and of course the usual furry stuff). Neither of us particularly enjoys playing evil characters or factions, so we needed to invent our own fiction to enjoy playing Warhammer 40,000.
Well, in the previous edition of the DE codex, the Archon w/ animus vitae was able to take slave and get some benefit from it (additional strength up to S6). Too bad, I never had the opportunity to take Sisters as slaves.
Seconded. And the Sisters may be uncorruptable, but they are capable of being used for Corrupt purposes. I'm sure the Changeling could accomplish that by himself. He pulled it on the Grey Knights after all.
Okay, lots of mental images for sites dedicated to Slaanesh aside, the whole point of the Soros is that they have that incorruptible-never-do-anything-heretical-aura around them. So the really interesting thing would be to force them where they have to decide between two bads, both leading them to some form of heretical act or another.
This is difficult, since just pointing the gun at the next one and saying "do it or i'll shoot-torture-rape-whatever her" wont work, as this would be considered martyrdom and they'd line up for that. So this a tricky one. I'd say, Tzench would come up with something good.
I think there was a space marine chapter in the fluff, that was "gifted" with the ability to hear all lies by their fellow men. The whole chapter turned renegade couple of days after. Maybe something along these lines. Let them learn something really awfull about the eclesiarchy. 's not like they don't have enough skelettons in their space closets.
I think Tzench is the only one to have any intricate form of fun out of this.
Khorne would just get some skulls (surpriiise)
Slaanesh would have a party (surpriiiiiise)
and Graddad Nurgle would probably infect them with some gak or other and drop them on top of a hospitaller medication facility, hospital ship or something in that fashion, destroying a place dedicated to countering desease and spreading the plague all in one go.
Seconded. And the Sisters may be uncorruptable, but they are capable of being used for Corrupt purposes. I'm sure the Changeling could accomplish that by himself. He pulled it on the Grey Knights after all.
The sisters were FOUNDED on being used through trickery. They were unwittingly fighting the Emperor for the insane High Lord Goge Vandire during the Reign of Blood. What would later become the Sisters were largely his full military might, the rest being made up of crazed and unorganised zealots.
Kosake wrote:Okay, lots of mental images for sites dedicated to Slaanesh aside, the whole point of the Soros is that they have that incorruptible-never-do-anything-heretical-aura around them. So the really interesting thing would be to force them where they have to decide between two bads, both leading them to some form of heretical act or another.
This is difficult, since just pointing the gun at the next one and saying "do it or i'll shoot-torture-rape-whatever her" wont work, as this would be considered martyrdom and they'd line up for that. So this a tricky one. I'd say, Tzench would come up with something good.
I think there was a space marine chapter in the fluff, that was "gifted" with the ability to hear all lies by their fellow men. The whole chapter turned renegade couple of days after. Maybe something along these lines. Let them learn something really awfull about the eclesiarchy. 's not like they don't have enough skelettons in their space closets.
The Sisters know all about the Ecclesiarchy's closeted skeletons. Teaching Sisters about the problems within the Ecclesiarchy won't turn them. The average Sister's response to being told "The cardinal's a bad guy!"?
"Oh. Thanks." She then shoots the heretic, and goes to investigate the cardinal... because, you know, that's the Sisterhood's job. What a lot of people forget is that the Adepta Sororitas is what passes for an Internal Affairs department in the 40k universe.
Breaking Sisters is... pretty much impossible, psychologically speaking. Zealotry has this way of glossing over uncomfortable truths and twisting everything else into either supporting its own arguments, or demonising the argument and the argumentor. On top of that, because of the whole martyrdom / self-flagellation culture, it would take an incredibly skilled torturer to keep a Sister alive for long enough to break her spirit. Incredibly skilled. Fabius Bile might be able to do it. Otherwise, you're looking at Sorcery, and a Sisters' faith is usually enough to stop that at the door (as signified in game by their ability to ignore a third of all psychic attacks).
Kosake wrote:Okay, lots of mental images for sites dedicated to Slaanesh aside, the whole point of the Soros is that they have that incorruptible-never-do-anything-heretical-aura around them. So the really interesting thing would be to force them where they have to decide between two bads, both leading them to some form of heretical act or another.
This is difficult, since just pointing the gun at the next one and saying "do it or i'll shoot-torture-rape-whatever her" wont work, as this would be considered martyrdom and they'd line up for that. So this a tricky one. I'd say, Tzench would come up with something good.
I think there was a space marine chapter in the fluff, that was "gifted" with the ability to hear all lies by their fellow men. The whole chapter turned renegade couple of days after. Maybe something along these lines. Let them learn something really awfull about the eclesiarchy. 's not like they don't have enough skelettons in their space closets.
The Sisters know all about the Ecclesiarchy's closeted skeletons. Teaching Sisters about the problems within the Ecclesiarchy won't turn them. The average Sister's response to being told "The cardinal's a bad guy!"?
"Oh. Thanks." She then shoots the heretic, and goes to investigate the cardinal... because, you know, that's the Sisterhood's job. What a lot of people forget is that the Adepta Sororitas is what passes for an Internal Affairs department in the 40k universe.
Breaking Sisters is... pretty much impossible, psychologically speaking. Zealotry has this way of glossing over uncomfortable truths and twisting everything else into either supporting its own arguments, or demonising the argument and the argumentor. On top of that, because of the whole martyrdom / self-flagellation culture, it would take an incredibly skilled torturer to keep a Sister alive for long enough to break her spirit. Incredibly skilled. Fabius Bile might be able to do it. Otherwise, you're looking at Sorcery, and a Sisters' faith is usually enough to stop that at the door (as signified in game by their ability to ignore a third of all psychic attacks).
Ya'll are forgetting, you don't need to break a Sister in order to use her for a Blasphemous Sacrifice. This is what Chaos loves them for. They're such tasty morsels for the Chaos Gods. +__+
Furyou Miko wrote: Otherwise, you're looking at Sorcery, and a Sisters' faith is usually enough to stop that at the door (as signified in game by their ability to ignore a third of all psychic attacks).
Yes, just like if you line up 6 gretchin in front of 6 Shadowswords and then score 6 direct hits with the Volcano Cannon, at least one of the grots is likely going to survive. Game mechanics. They might be resistant to corruption and seduction by chaos, but it would be ludicrous to assume that they would be immune. What do you have that says they are? The codex? ALL codexes paint their respective armies as mighty unstoppable forces. Sure, they are immune, but if so each of my marines have the resilience of a battle tank and can beat a hundred guardsmen alone. Besides, Black Templars and a few other Marine chapters, as well as various others individuals in the Imperium, are just as zealous and have no reason to be, and are not stated as, immune.
The whole 'Sisters can resist anything and do anything because faith herpaderp ;DDDDD' (Not pointing fingers at anyone specific, mind) is getting a bit tedious and is a prime reason for why I have not decided to pick them up myself. An army that is granted Sue-ish powers by mere zeal where others who by logic should too are not, is not interesting IMO.
/rant
Hmmmgh, sorry for that. Just needed to vent some steam. But really, zeal only takes you so far in the madness of the 41st millenium. That goes for everyone.
Actually, since all Strength D weapons are now vortex missiles, if you line six gretchin up in front of six Shadowswords, and score 6 direct hits with the Volcano Cannons... none of the grots will survive, because you don't roll any dice.
Sisters don't fall to chaos, end of story. They may be tricked to act in ways that advance the cause of chaos (whatever that means), they may be temporarily mind controlled (MSS, Puppetmaster, whatever), but they will die before they willingly act on the behalf of the chaos gods (unlike a certain Grey Knight who I could name).
Furyou Miko wrote: Actually, since all Strength D weapons are now vortex missiles, if you line six gretchin up in front of six Shadowswords, and score 6 direct hits with the Volcano Cannons... none of the grots will survive, because you don't roll any dice.
Sisters don't fall to chaos, end of story. They may be tricked to act in ways that advance the cause of chaos (whatever that means), they may be temporarily mind controlled (MSS, Puppetmaster, whatever), but they will die before they willingly act on the behalf of the chaos gods (unlike a certain Grey Knight who I could name).
Nope, read the latest apocalypse book. Against infantry, a roll of a 1 means no damage done. You do indeed roll a dice for D damage.
And your statement lacks backing. I said why it is not entirely legit since the only places where they are said as incorruptible are in the same contexts as other armies are called 'implacable' 'unstoppable' etc. and thus is more likely than not just the usual in-codex bias. That the players -want- it to be that way does not mean that it is. I would buy it if it said 'Sisters of Battle have a special zealous relationship to the power of the Emperor that protects them against corruption above and beyond other similarly faithful organisations in the Imperium' but it doesn't.
Sisters are zealous to the point that they shrug off wounds that would kill them in a FNP-similar way (And IMO a 6+ FNP would make more sense than a 6++ for them gamewise) but they are still but humans. This whole attempting to give them superqualities is, as said, tedious. They are extra well trained, extra well equipped, extra faithful Guardswomen that belong to a different organisation and thus has many differences in behaviour and organisation. They are nothing more and nothing less.
Furyou Miko wrote: Actually, since all Strength D weapons are now vortex missiles, if you line six gretchin up in front of six Shadowswords, and score 6 direct hits with the Volcano Cannons... none of the grots will survive, because you don't roll any dice.
Sisters don't fall to chaos, end of story. They may be tricked to act in ways that advance the cause of chaos (whatever that means), they may be temporarily mind controlled (MSS, Puppetmaster, whatever), but they will die before they willingly act on the behalf of the chaos gods (unlike a certain Grey Knight who I could name).
Nope, read the latest apocalypse book. Against infantry, a roll of a 1 means no damage done. You do indeed roll a dice for D damage.
And your statement lacks backing. I said why it is not entirely legit since the only places where they are said as incorruptible are in the same contexts as other armies are called 'implacable' 'unstoppable' etc. and thus is more likely than not just the usual in-codex bias. That the players -want- it to be that way does not mean that it is. I would buy it if it said 'Sisters of Battle have a special zealous relationship to the power of the Emperor that protects them against corruption above and beyond other similarly faithful organisations in the Imperium' but it doesn't.
I'll get back to you on that one. Normally I'm a wealth of quotes and sitations, but today my mind is blank.
squidhills wrote: Sisters don't fall to Chaos (except in non-studio material, and that was only once).
The only reason to capture one is to torture her for fun, sacrifice her for fun/power, or have her go into the kitchen and make you a sandwich.
...But don't be surprised when she tries to kill you with a broken piece of mayo jar. And the sandwich will be poisoned, too.
That middle sentence is really all that matters. And personally, we don't give a crap (Chaos). We like it when ya'll fight back. Keeps things fun and futile.
Now that said, there will come a time when we finally convert a Battle Sister. It may take many millenia in the warp, but when Slaanesh get's bored with his hand maidens, he's going to come make a trophy out of a Sister. Bet on that. +__+
Wilytank wrote: I would imagine the SoB to be the suicide-before-surrender type.
Capure isn't always a choice. Sisters are still normal humans, and the human body is fairly fragile. Concussion from blasts, blood loss, etc can incapacitate you and make surrender or suicide impossible.
I'm more interested on why the strike force sees the captured sisters as worth saving.
Pride? Esprit de corps? Leave no (wo)man behind kind of thing? I mean, they might not be salvageable, but there's a fair amount of bonding between military members. And being brought back into the Emperor's grace before being put out of their misery could be seen as the right thing to do.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: And your statement lacks backing. I said why it is not entirely legit since the only places where they are said as incorruptible are in the same contexts as other armies are called 'implacable' 'unstoppable' etc. and thus is more likely than not just the usual in-codex bias. That the players -want- it to be that way does not mean that it is. I would buy it if it said 'Sisters of Battle have a special zealous relationship to the power of the Emperor that protects them against corruption above and beyond other similarly faithful organisations in the Imperium' but it doesn't.
Well, just look at how the SoB live.Nobody else is quite so hardcore or single-minded. Here are some quotes:
"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deprivation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement." - Codex Imperialis
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Additionally, when not at war, they don't leave their monasteries, and just pray and train all day. So, in summary, an SoB's life is being orphaned and sent to the Schola, heavily indoctrinated from an early age, then picked out by the Order Famulous and taken to one of their bases for further indoctrination, then picked out by an Order and taken back to that Order's monastery, where they only spend time with lots of other heavily indoctrinated individuals. As you can see, they undergo a LOT of brainwashing, and only ever live their lives in controlled enviroments, so other influences don't really have a chance to make an impression.
If you'd like some more contemporary evidence, just look to the Bloodtide. In short, some Sisters are able to be immune to its influence just on their own, whilst the Grey Knights are described as "needing" to use blood magic to protect against it.; Additionally, some clergymen earlier in this fluff also get affected by the Bloodtide, yet are described something like being "amongst the Emperor's most virtous servants". So, Sisters are able to out-faith both GK and top-tier clergymen. I think that this speaks volumes of the power of their faith, and very much sets them apart from anybody else.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Sisters are zealous to the point that they shrug off wounds that would kill them in a FNP-similar way (And IMO a 6+ FNP would make more sense than a 6++ for them gamewise) but they are still but humans. This whole attempting to give them superqualities is, as said, tedious.
Additionally, such is their faith that all of them can resist the influence of Psykers. Don't see any other Imperial factions doing that as standard, do we (unless the BT do)?
And anyway, why aren't those valid points? Do you see any other Imperial factions having the sheer faith to do things like that? They're not just regular humans, they are humans who have been conditioned and indoctrinated utterly, to the point where all of them exhibit levels of faith that allow them to push their bodies beyond its limits or to fight off Psyker influence. And why is them being "just humans" so often levelled as a criticism, anyway? Species doesn't matter when trying to resist heretical influences, belief does.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: They are extra well trained, extra well equipped, extra faithful Guardswomen that belong to a different organisation and thus has many differences in behaviour and organisation. They are nothing more and nothing less.
Ah, now this is a common misconception that I see, comparing the Sisters to well trained, extra-faithful IG in power armour. But, just read above, about how they live and the power of their faith. They're very different to the IG. And you're underestimating the power they get from being so faithful. Faith is what gives them their edge in the brutal 40K universe, see. They don't have the numbers of the Guard or the enhancements of the Marines, it's their faith that allows them to succeed. It's what makes them special.
I'm more interested on why the strike force sees the captured sisters as worth saving.
Pride? Esprit de corps? Leave no (wo)man behind kind of thing? I mean, they might not be salvageable, but there's a fair amount of bonding between military members. And being brought back into the Emperor's grace before being put out of their misery could be seen as the right thing to do.
I imagine that pride of sorts would be a major factor. Assuming that it's a Choas faction that's done the capturing, that's a big deal for Chaos worshipers, capturing one of the Empror's own holy Sororitas. Sisters probably wouldn't want to let something like that go. I reckon it would be less "we must save our comrade" (though that would definetely still be a factor!) and more "we cannot let this stand".
All that is just mindset. Sisters can inflict as much meaningless pain on themselves as they like, it still only affects their resolve. They might be so fanatical so that they can face down an insanity-inducing Daemon without backing down. They might be so fanatical so they attack said Daemon without pause where a Guardsman would back off in fear, or promptly go insane. But when they get the Daemon's sword rammed in the face, their faith can't do anything. It is only mental, not physical. Faith makes you fear less and doubt less but it does not actually improve their combat ability beyond negating the loss of it they would otherwise suffer by being subject to said fear. It does not matter the slightest whether you are an atheist (Assuming atheistic humans exist in 40k!) or the most faithful Canoness, a sniper bullet to the face/dagger in the back/bolter shell to the... Well, anywhere really, will still kill you.
That is what I am trying to say. The whole thing with them gaining some kind of divine protection (Beyond, perhaps, the psychic resistance that their faith offers)due to having faith is entirely illogical and contradictory. Yes, Black Templars gain Adamantium Will. They do not, however, gain Shield of Faith, despite being arguably at least as fanatical, faithful and determinated as the SoB. One can wonder why...
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Faith makes you fear less and doubt less but it does not actually improve their combat ability
That's exactly what most Acts of Faith do, though. Dominions get to ignore cover, Celestians hit harder and regular Sisters get preferred enemy, and so on.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: It does not matter the slightest whether you are an atheist (Assuming atheistic humans exist in 40k!) or the most faithful Canoness, a sniper bullet to the face/dagger in the back/bolter shell to the... Well, anywhere really, will still kill you.
Nobody's claiming that their faith lets them survive things which should be impossible to do so, such as a bullet to the brain, but their belief does let them push their bodies to extremes, to the point where it's described as appearing miraculous to the unschooled.
On a somewhat related note, I do wonder if an atheist could achieve similar things similar to Act of Faith in 40K. I guess they could believe in a non-relgious cause so hard that they can do it, but then, if you're believing in something that hard, then I imagine that it would have parallels to religion anyway. Regardless, it's an interesting thought.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: That is what I am trying to say. The whole thing with them gaining some kind of divine protection (Beyond, perhaps, the psychic resistance that their faith offers)due to having faith is entirely illogical and contradictory.
Actually, I like to take the view that AoFs are not actually divine in nature, as per codex quotes about them only seeming to be miraculous. What's important is that their minds are so utterly set upon their cause, so other influences are blocked out, and the Sisters can push themselves to extreme feats.
And, you know, Chaos is a thing of the warp, and is therefore psychic in nature. So their Adamantium Will does also represent a resistance to Chaos corruption as well as psychic trickery. As do some of the Sisters in the Bloodtide, who can resist some of the most powerful Chaotic influence around, to the point where even the GK needed to get special protection for it, on top of their own indoctrination and holy wards.
Game mechanics. I can offer you a hundred example of utterly illogical game mechanics. We should not really bring them up in this way when discussing fluff. AoF might just be specialised 'pushes' in tactics that is unique to them. It does seem to intrude a bit on Ork territory to have your meltaguns ignore cover because you have faith in that they will, doesn't it?
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Game mechanics. I can offer you a hundred example of utterly illogical game mechanics. We should not really bring them up in this way when discussing fluff.
Not entirely so, these sorts of things can happen IRL too. To steal from one of Lynata's posts on the subject, there is a case of a young woman lifting a 5600 pound jeep off of her father. Additonally, it's been found that belief can improve performance in sports. Belief alone can improve a person's perfromance, possibly to massive amounts in small bursts when in an extreme situation. It is, perhaps, not so illogical or unbelievable. Remember, belief is the key, and the Sisters are champions at that.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: It does seem to intrude a bit on Ork territory to have your meltaguns ignore cover because you have faith in that they will, doesn't it?
Or it can simply represent improved shooting out of extreme belief temporarily boosting performance. Again, going off of what the studio fluff implies, it seems to be the Sisters themselves rather than a psychic/supernatural force at work.
Psychological influence on one's body has a great deal of impact on one's physical well-being. Many soldiers have continued to carry on with egregious injuries while others have been killed by non life-threatening wounds. Bleeding out or getting any nerve cluster destroyed for example will of course will stop a person regardless of their determination.
However, to say that Sisters will NEVER turn is a bit farfetched. They are still individual humans after all with all those tremendous strengths and hidden weaknesses. Even the best operatives are trained to believe NO ONE is immune to all kinds of coercion, so resistance must be oblique and deceptive.
Why wouldn't her comrades rescue a Sister? As Veteran Sergeant said an esprit de corps within the Sisterhood is one of several reasons, but keep in mind part of their high morale is the fact that they know "nobody gets left behind." Obviously each Sister is very valuable (compared to any guardsman) but symbolically much more important to retrieve, even if she were to be outcast/executed for her failure after the fact. Would space marines leave a dreadnaught behind?
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Still doesn't answer why only Sisters can do it. Why not Word Bearers? Why not Black Templars?
Good question.
In regards to those Astartes especially, I'd say that the Word Bearers are sort of a moot point, since their gods actually do grant them special powers, so they don't really need to harness the power of belief itself. Templars are a bit more tricky. Though they do exhibit something similar with their Emperor's Champion supposedly recieving a vision from the Emperor, and that's belief. But note how Acts of Faith are referred to as appearing miraculous to the "unschooled" in the WH codex. This could imply that Sisters get special training (intentionally or not entirely so) to harness the power of belief. It could be that the Templars don't train the same way as the Sisters, so don't/can't use the same techniques.
It's a combination of zeal and training - a "taxing learning process to clear their minds of all wordly considerations", as Codex fluff puts it. This is why Vandire wanted them in his service. He already had the armies of religiously fanatical Frateris Templar, yet apparently fanatism alone is insufficient, just like training without belief yields a different result. Another important difference might be that Battle Sisters are trained and indoctrinated from infancy, whereas every single Space Marine once had what passed for a normal childhood on their planet, with a (supposedly) loving family and parents as opposed to a class of orphans and the stern Drill-Abbots of the Schola Progenium. The Sororitas literally do not know another life, and are literally a blank slate upon which the Imperial Creed and military training are inscribed.
For the same reason, the Sisters are special amongst (most) other believers of the faith.
Another explanation might also be that whereas faith allows holy warriors like the Sororitas to get the most out of their bodies, the Space Marines are already so juiced up by default that there is less potential to climb even further. The fluff mentions how their bodies require a regular intake of drugs just to keep their metabolism from collapsing, so perhaps what you see is a body running on 110% efficiency all the time, and the difference you could force upon it with belief is considerably smaller than with unenhanced humans who still have reserves to tap.
That being said, in addition to the Emperor's Champion, the Black Templars also get the same +1 bonus to Deny the Witch rolls, do they not? Now you know why.
amanita wrote:However, to say that Sisters will NEVER turn is a bit farfetched. They are still individual humans after all with all those tremendous strengths and hidden weaknesses. Even the best operatives are trained to believe NO ONE is immune to all kinds of coercion, so resistance must be oblique and deceptive.
Personally, I like the fluff surrounding Miriael Sabathiel. By making her the one exception to the rule, the army's general style is preserved, and her character gets to be all the more special for being unique.
To quote from Abnett's short story: "What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion."
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Still doesn't answer why only Sisters can do it. Why not Word Bearers? Why not Black Templars?
Black Templars: because they don´t have a Codex for them. The vow "uphold the honour of the Emperor" was pretty close to what Sisters have.
Word Bearers: because they don´t have a Codex for them. Any acceptable way to field the Word Bearers in the game should include their faith.
Faith is a weapon in this setting. It may be because the gods are somehow real, including the Emperor. Or it may be because "magic" exists and a strong will directed by faith can warp reality.
I find it odd that some players think the Sisters are able to do what they do without a "magical" explanation. They are really close to a Space Marine, both in the game and in the background, yet they are human. And while lots of Marines fall to Chaos, they do not.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Game mechanics. I can offer you a hundred example of utterly illogical game mechanics. We should not really bring them up in this way when discussing fluff. AoF might just be specialised 'pushes' in tactics that is unique to them. It does seem to intrude a bit on Ork territory to have your meltaguns ignore cover because you have faith in that they will, doesn't it?
I never understood that: the game is intended to bring the setting to live. Sure, some novels are totally over the top, but if you discard some noise made of plot armour, the game is somehow accurate. Or, at least, that is my interpretation of the setting.
And yes, the Orks are another example of the "faith" power. Gods, faith, and magic do exist in the setting. And they are powerful for all races able to "suck" power from the Warp.
// On topic again: oh come on, three pages and still no pictures?
Because the Black Templars are all caught up in their Marineness - they can't put their faith 100% in the Emperor because they know they are superhuman fighting machines - their faith is split between their faith in the Emperor and their faith in themselves.
That said, I don't really approve of the 6++ SoF from a fluff point of view (although I value it greatly from a game mechanics angle). It doesn't make sense, simply put, in conjunction with their other Faith powers (adamantine will, the Acts of Faith) which aren't obviously mystical that they have a force field as well. I mean, yes, you could say it's a case of lucky dodging, pausing at just the right moment or whatever, but that would be better represented by giving them all Stealth (6+ cover save in the open, so same basic effect, but fluffier and slightly better in cover at the expense of not benefitting from medium-range night fighting).
Edit: and I just noticed that there's a whole extra page I hadn't read on this thread. Oops? ^^;
The Acts of Faith are all things that other races can do with skill. Rending? Raptor Chapter Tactics. Ignores Cover is slightly harder to justify, but the psi-power that grants it is called "PErfect Timing" - implying that it works by letting them shoot at just the right moment to avoid all the ducking and covering. So again, it's just luckier.
da001 wrote: Black Templars: because they don´t have a Codex for them.
But they did have a codex, and no AoFs.
da001 wrote: Word Bearers: because they don´t have a Codex for them. Any acceptable way to field the Word Bearers in the game should include their faith.
As I said, kinda a moot point, since the Word Bearers are explicitly working for entities that provide boons and powers to their followers. So the Word Bearers would have no need to tap into the power of belief itself, rather their belief would earn them power from the gods they worship.
da001 wrote: Faith is a weapon in this setting. It may be because the gods are somehow real, including the Emperor. Or it may be because "magic" exists and a strong will directed by faith can warp reality.
Magic existing does not mean that all incredible events must be caused by magic.
da001 wrote: I find it odd that some players think the Sisters are able to do what they do without a "magical" explanation.
Then I shall lay it out for you:
Just look to the codex quotes (emphasis mine):
"The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers."
- 6E AS codex
For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled
- 3E WH codex
"The Sisters of Battle can draw upon the wellspring of their faith to guide their actions. Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible."
- 5E WD codex
Notice a theme? Lots of talking about the power of belief, and some quotes about what they do only seeming impossible.
Additionally, we have this from the GW game Inquisitor, for SoB characters:
Acts of Faith are not counted as psychic powers, and so may not be nullified.
So the studio fluff certainly seems to be saying that it's not magical in nature, and is just their belief. And, of course, we have the RL example of a woman supposedly lifting a 5600 pound truck off of her father, so it's not so far-fetched.
da001 wrote: They are really close to a Space Marine, both in the game and in the background, yet they are human. And while lots of Marines fall to Chaos, they do not.
Now, this is something that I don't understand. Why is Marines falling so special? Does just being a Marine make them automatically more resistant to Chaotic corruption? No. An angry marine (not those kind!) will be more easily tempted by Khorne, for example. The Astartes don't get special implants that help them resist Chaos, them being Marines is irrelevant. What matters is mindset and indoctrination, and the Sisters have this nailed down far more consistently and intensely than the Marines.
I'd even argue that being a Marine makes them (on average) more likely to fall - simply because the Chapters are really caught up in their relative independence and pride, because they are convinced they are as awesome as propaganda makes them to be and that this makes them "humans +1". Added to the fact that many Chapters recruit their Neophytes out of societies where "might makes right" is still a fashion ... was this not the same train of thought that led to the Horus Heresy in the first place? "We are better than them. -> We deserve better. -> We deserve to rule."
Case in point, the Marines Malevolent.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to every Chapter, and there are quite a lot of examples for the contrary, but I'm sure it could be said about a lot of them.
When it comes to comparing loyalty between Marines and Sisters, it seems that the Marines are first and foremost loyal to themselves, whereas for the Sisters it'd be unthinkable to put anything above the Emperor, and thus his Imperium. It is a matter of identity, and where the respective army sees itself.
Spoiler:
"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."
-- from: Daemonblood, by Ben Counter
Furyou Miko wrote:That said, I don't really approve of the 6++ SoF from a fluff point of view (although I value it greatly from a game mechanics angle). It doesn't make sense, simply put, in conjunction with their other Faith powers (adamantine will, the Acts of Faith) which aren't obviously mystical that they have a force field as well. I mean, yes, you could say it's a case of lucky dodging, pausing at just the right moment or whatever, but that would be better represented by giving them all Stealth (6+ cover save in the open, so same basic effect, but fluffier and slightly better in cover at the expense of not benefitting from medium-range night fighting).
It's the old Spirit of the Martyr AoF, just weaker and permanent. I've always interpreted it at the Sisters in question still being wounded - their zeal just allows them to keep on their toes until battle's end, ignoring the grievous wound in their flesh as they are so utterly focused in seeing the mission through. We do have real life examples for such things, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogendra_Singh_Yadav
It also helps if you think that the TT is just an abstraction and not every hit must be a headshot. A hit by a krak rocket, for example, must not actually hit the soldier herself, but could detonate nearby in a manner that would still lethally wound her - but there's a 1-in-6 chance she just refuses to lay down and die. Not before the battle is over.
Only when every last heretic is killed will the Sisters allow themselves to relax, and many of them may well allow themselves to die at that very moment, a smile on their face as they expect divine rewards for their faith and martyrdom.
Grimdark.
da001 wrote:I never understood that: the game is intended to bring the setting to live. Sure, some novels are totally over the top, but if you discard some noise made of plot armour, the game is somehow accurate. Or, at least, that is my interpretation of the setting.
This I agree with. The way I see it, the fluff was written around the game, not the other way around. It's not two different worlds. And often enough, this is reflected in GW's writings - such as the protective value of Marine PA in Codex fluff incidentally corresponding to the saves in the TT, and the profile in GW's Inquisitor game.
It's just that not all fluff follows this example, specifically when it comes to certain novels - but this is not the fault of GW, but of whoever wrote the deviant interpretation, if it can be called a fault at all. The setting is intentionally open to such things, and "everything is true". People who voluntarily cherrypick the more awesome interpretation have no right to complain about GW's rules not reflecting them, though, when it is GW that was consistent all the time.
Troike wrote:What matters is mindset and indoctrination, and the Sisters have this nailed down far more consistently and intensely than the Marines.
Disagree. The Space Marine indoctrination process has been consistently described as ridiculously intensive, begins around the same age, and is far more "technological" than the Sisters.
Space Marines falling is a huge deal. Sometimes it seems like it happens fairly often because the fluff focuses on big events, not the hundreds of years of small ones, but renegade and traitor chapters (since the Heresy) have been few and far between (the largest conversion being Chapters foolishly sent into the Eye of Terror, by the Ecclesiarchy, ironically enough). The list of named Traitor warbands is only just over 100, and half of them are splinter groups of the traitor Legions.
So no, the Sisters don't have indoctrination nailed down far more intensely than the Marines. They just condition for different things.
It is, however, correct to say that the Sisters receive a lot more conditioning to be less independent and individualistic. But that's because a Space Marine is expected to be an unequaled tool for war. To be able to adapt and overcome impossible odds and find ways to win and carry on. The same isn't expected of Sisters of Battle. Because of this, the Space Marine does need to know that he's superior, and despite their intense mental and psychological conditioning, it leaves room for that seed.
But it's also fair to point out that Space Marines are also exposed to far higher degrees of risk than Sisters of Battle. It isn't like the Ecclesiarchy would send thirty convents into the Eye of Terror and expect to get any of them back. Despite the fact that it was ridiculous and foolish to expect to get the Space Marines back intact, it would be unthinkable to expect the same of regular human troops, no matter how fanatical. In the end, Sisters are basically just heavily armored Stormtroopers, not Space Marines -1. Which is not a knock on either Sisters or Stormtroopers. It's just the reality of the universe. Space Marines survive incredible wounds, hostile environments, have two hearts, spit acid, eat memories (okay, yeah that's a little silly, but the point is they're more human than human).
Notice a theme? Lots of talking about the power of belief, and some quotes about what they do only seeming impossible.
That's all just bad writing. 40K fluff is rife with it, so it's no surprise.
The powers are "magical", no matter what the codex says, because the Sisters literally achieve impossible results through the power of belief. So their beliefs are having a tangible effect on the universe.
The Acts of Faith are not like the Sacred Rites from 2E. The Sacred Rites were almost all psychological effects. The Sisters were so fanatical they got angry, or fearless, or more disciplined. The Acts of Faith make bullets and weapons do more damage, make the Sisters immune to damage, make them stronger, make them shoot more accurately, etc. That's not belief. That's magic, lol. And you can quote all the lines from the book you want. The lines will still be stupid.
Any way you cut it, the Sisters are magical. What makes them magical is up for debate. I mean, my explanation is the fluff is stupid. You might have a different one. But the fact that they are achieving impossible results with the Acts of Faith is indisputable.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Space Marine indoctrination process has been consistently described as ridiculously intensive, begins around the same age, and is far more "technological" than the Sisters.
And yet, despite the more technological aspect of it, it has been shown to be falliable. Meanwhile, the Sisters have yet to have any of their number fall to Chaos in the studio fluff. As it stands, the Sisters must be doing something better.
I don't know, so many have them have fallen. Half of the original ones, in fact. Then we've got Huron Blackheart and his merry band of Corsiars, and those Eye of Terror Marines you mentioned. And numerous others besides that. I don't think that it is so big a deal when we've got so many traitor Marines running around.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: But that's because a Space Marine is expected to be an unequaled tool for war. To be able to adapt and overcome impossible odds and find ways to win and carry on. The same isn't expected of Sisters of Battle.
Actually, martial prowess and unshakable determination are very much expected of a Sister. No, they're not superhumans, but they're also epxected to be the best soldiers that they can be.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: But it's also fair to point out that Space Marines are also exposed to far higher degrees of risk than Sisters of Battle.
Nah. From the SoB codex, I can show you stories about Sisters raiding a Daemon world, fighting a Daemon Prince and some possessed Chaos Marines, and fighting off a Red Corsairs invasion. The newest codex even says that they have wiped out entire Space Marine Chapters for heresy. So no, they get just as brutal assignments as their Astartes comrades.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: In the end, Sisters are basically just heavily armored Stormtroopers
Not quite, their Acts of Faith put them above Stormtroopers.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: That's all just bad writing. 40K fluff is rife with it, so it's no surprise.
You can't just hand-wave something away because you have a negative opinion of it. Whether you like it or not, this is what the fluff says.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The powers are "magical", no matter what the codex says, because the Sisters literally achieve impossible results through the power of belief.
Earlier posts ITT addressed this.
Furyou Miko wrote: The Acts of Faith are all things that other races can do with skill. Rending? Raptor Chapter Tactics. Ignores Cover is slightly harder to justify, but the psi-power that grants it is called "PErfect Timing" - implying that it works by letting them shoot at just the right moment to avoid all the ducking and covering. So again, it's just luckier.
Lynata wrote: I've always interpreted it at the Sisters in question still being wounded - their zeal just allows them to keep on their toes until battle's end, ignoring the grievous wound in their flesh as they are so utterly focused in seeing the mission through. We do have real life examples for such things, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogendra_Singh_Yadav
It also helps if you think that the TT is just an abstraction and not every hit must be a headshot. A hit by a krak rocket, for example, must not actually hit the soldier herself, but could detonate nearby in a manner that would still lethally wound her - but there's a 1-in-6 chance she just refuses to lay down and die. Not before the battle is over.
So no, they're not necessarily magical at all. And, even though you want to discount it, the studio fluff very much implies the same. In fact, the WD codex specifically refers to them as "seemingly impossible".
There will always be different interpretations, simply because people have different preferences and thus will arrive at conflicting opinions. /shrug
Given how malleable the fluff is, it's not exactly "wrong" to claim that SoB use magic (see the new Dark Heresy books), that Sisters are "just Storm Troopers" (see various Black Library novels), or that a Sister's indoctrination would begin as late as a Marine's (okay, this is a new one). The background is deliberately open to cherrypicking, and in some way we are all doing this somewhere. We have to, given how many contradictions there are between the various books.
So, it all depends on how someone wants to see the Sisters, and some people undoubtedly dislike GW studio sources putting them on the same pedestal as Marines. Or in some cases above, as far as loyalty and dedication to the IoM are concerned. To me, the elite and zealous aspect just makes them a more interesting army, and as much as some SoB fans don't like this comparison, personally I embrace the (oversimplified) notion of them being 40k's "female Space Marines" as put forth by some material making direct comparisons between these forces.
I don't know, so many have them have fallen. Half of the original ones, in fact. Then we've got Huron Blackheart and his merry band of Corsiars, and those Eye of Terror Marines you mentioned. And numerous others besides that. I don't think that it is so big a deal when we've got so many traitor Marines running around.
That they make such a racket is easily explainable by not only the humongous amount of fluff that Astartes in general get but also by the fact that due to their superhumanity and everything, when a group of Astartes turn traitor, they are far less likely to simply be quickly crushed underfoot like many other traitor groups such as Traitor Guard tend to be.
You can throw the same argument for why Astartes get so much credit for defending the Imperium when there is less than one Marine for each world in it, compared to the untold billions of Guardsmen. Simply because
1. They have the power to make a significant impact beyond their numbers. Sisters can do that as well, to a lesser degree, with their miracles and whatnot, but Marines are no doubt better at it (Of course they are, if they had not been, why ever use them in the first place?) which makes them draw a lot of attention from readers/fluffwriters/and so on,
And 2. They get a massive amount of lore, so they are getting a very good representation fluffwise. This again draws attention to them.
I can accept the fluff being malleabe. But at the same time, I'm not so accepting of major deviations from the original material. And the SoB especially can suffer from this at times. For example, I'm unwilling to accept Blood of Asaheim's portrayal of a Canoness losing her faith during the course of doing what she has become a quite adept at (war), only to have it restored by a pagan that Sisters are known to distrust.
Lynata wrote: it's not exactly "wrong" to claim that SoB use magic (see the new Dark Heresy books)
But the codexes, as demonstrated, have been quite consistent about it. It is, at most, ambiguous. Only in third-party works do we see outright and actual magic. Meanwhile, the codexes are consistently implying that it's just the power of belief, with the latest codex pretty much saying it outright.
Lynata wrote: that Sisters are "just Storm Troopers" (see various Black Library novels),
But they are not "just Stormtroopers". Sisters have AoFs, Stormtroopers do not. And, of course, the SoB have better equipment. So portraying them as "just Stormtroopers" is, again, a pretty significant departure from their original depiction in the studio fluff.
I must say, I'm surprised to see you using BL for this. I thought you were generally pretty disapproving of their more deviant portrayals of the Sisters.
Lynata wrote: and as much as some SoB fans don't like this comparison, personally I embrace the (oversimplified) notion of them being 40k's "female Space Marines" as put forth by some material making direct comparisons between these forces.
Personally, I don't mind the comparison. But only when it's made in the loosest sense. They both use a lot of the same or similar equipment, and they're both elite infantry that also serve as potent symbols of the Imperium. Apart from that, they're pretty different.
@BrotherHaraldus True, the Marines do get a lot of focus in the fluff. But the fluff overall has been pretty consistent in what it's been saying. Lots of Marines have fallen, no Sisters have yet been shown to. One could just as easily say that this is an intended portrayal rather than a result of the fluff focusing on Marines so much.
Don't get me wrong, here - I am disapproving of these deviant portrayals you are referring to. But at the same time I guess I have come to realise that we'll just have to accept their existence as a fact, and how they will shape or support other people's perception of the Sisterhood.
I think I'll never cease to express my disappointment when some writer "does it wrong", even though I know that, with the way how 40k fluff works, there is no "wrong" to begin with.
I suppose what I'm actually trying to say is that it's of no use debating this when the one you are talking to already has made up their mind. The most you can achieve is to stress the point that this isn't what the GW core studio has written, and that your interpretation of the Sororitas is just as correct as his.
(and yes, I realise this must sound funny, coming from me - given that usually I am the stubborn one when it comes to these topics ... perhaps it's because this time you've already jumped in to take my place )
da001 wrote: Black Templars: because they don´t have a Codex for them.
But they did have a codex, and no AoFs.
(...)
I was referring to "to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor", a vow that grants you a 6++ inv save. It is described as being caused by their faith in the Emperor, with a similar wording to the Shield of Faith rule.
I must admit I cannot properly defend my interpretation, so I will not even try. I am mostly talking from a "logical" point of view. Chaos corrupts everything.... save the Sisters and the Grey Knights. There must be something special. And the Emperor is a god for them. And faith works fine for many factions. It makes sense.
da001 wrote: They are really close to a Space Marine, both in the game and in the background, yet they are human. And while lots of Marines fall to Chaos, they do not.
Now, this is something that I don't understand. Why is Marines falling so special? Does just being a Marine make them automatically more resistant to Chaotic corruption? No. An angry marine (not those kind!) will be more easily tempted by Khorne, for example. The Astartes don't get special implants that help them resist Chaos, them being Marines is irrelevant. What matters is mindset and indoctrination, and the Sisters have this nailed down far more consistently and intensely than the Marines.
Because while Space Marines sometimes fall to chaos (let´s say half of them) for mere humans there is no hope. It is assumed that if a human sees a Daemon, the best solution is killing him, because he is tainted. About 99% humans can be corrupted, 50% Astartes can be corrupted, and 0% Sisters. I can´t see "indoctrination and mindset" as a proper explanation. Some Imperial Guardsmen are heavily indoctrinated too.
Nothing the Sisters do make sense to me... unless the Emperor protects them . The Emperor is a god. He "owns" the Sisters, they are "marked" by him. Khorne trying to corrupt a Sister is like Khorne trying to corrupt a Noise Marine. The soul is already taken, the mind a fortress built by a similar creature.
Then again, this is just my take on the fluff. The way different authors see the Sisters at least open the possibility of some kind of spiritual power behind them: "nuns with guns" opposed to the Astartes "warrior monks". As you pointed out, some quotes seem to undermine this theory, but still think is correct.
Lynata wrote: I suppose what I'm actually trying to say is that it's of no use debating this when the one you are talking to already has made up their mind. The most you can achieve is to stress the point that this isn't what the GW core studio has written, and that your interpretation of the Sororitas is just as correct as his.
You're probably right, but I think there's some good to be done for championing the codex fluff anyway. You may not convince the person you're arguing with, but others might take your points onboard. Similarly, it helps to make this material known to the fans, which it isn't always. I just tend towards optimism on this sort of thing, you see.
da001 wrote: I was referring to "to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor", a vow that grants you a 6++ inv save. It is described as being caused by their faith in the Emperor, with a similar wording to the Shield of Faith rule.
I suppose that would, indeed, be a case of the Templars also harnessing the power of belief. Perhaps some Astartes can utilise such techniques, but not in the same way as the Sisters?
da001 wrote: Chaos corrupts everything.... save the Sisters and the Grey Knights. There must be something special.
And there is something special! For the Sisters, it's that singular, completely one-dimensional mindset. There is only service to the their God Emperor, this is ingrained into them so hard, that they could not concieve of doing anything else. It's similar to what we see with Adamantium Will, a strong enough willpower, a singular enough commitment to one's ideals can stave off the influence of the warp. The Chaos Gods are a warp influence, so them and their influence can be resisted in this way.
da001 wrote: Because while Space Marines sometimes fall to chaos (let´s say half of them) for mere humans there is no hope. It is assumed that if a human sees a Daemon, the best solution is killing him, because he is tainted.
Interestingly, and I'd quite like to make a thread about this sometime, the Sisters may be an exception to this rule. Firstly, there's a story in the AS codex where the Sisters raid a Daemon world for yet unspoiled relics, and leave just as the GKs arrive to bomb the Daemon world. We don't hear about the Sisters being killed or mind-wiped, the story just ends with the Sisters leaving the planet as the GK arrive. It seems that these Sisters get to leave the encounter alive. Next, the Battle-prayer of the Adepta Sororitas, from the 2E SoB codex, mentions Daemons outright. These two sources aren't exactly solid evidence, but they could imply that the Sisters are allowed to know about Daemons. And if there's one non-faction that could perhaps be allowed to live after seeing a Daemon, it's the SoB, what with their purity and distinct lack of falling to Chaos.
Now, the point I'm making here is that, even though they are indeed humans, they have a resistance to Chaotic influence. This shows that it is not physiology that matters, but mindset. You could have a human and an Astartes who were both utterly bloodthirsty and enjoyed bloodshed, and they'd probably fall to Khorne quite quickly if the right situation arose. However, if you had a human and an Astartes who had absolute belief in what they were doing, and had both been intensey indoctrinated to resist corruption, they would both likely be completely or at least mostly immune to Chaotic influence.
da001 wrote: Some Imperial Guardsmen are heavily indoctrinated too.
Though likely not to the same extent as the Sisters. We don't see any IG using AoFs, to my knowledge.
da001 wrote: Nothing the Sisters do make sense to me... unless the Emperor protects them. The Emperor is a god. He "owns" the Sisters, they are "marked" by him.
This sort of viewpoint is still very much applicable in one piece of SoB fluff. Just look to Celestine. Former SoB, gained magical powers, and now appears in times of need before vanishing again. If you want to view any SoB as being outright connected to Big E, then she's the one.
Of course, she too is open to interpretation, but Big E being involved is a perfectly valid viewpoint too.
If you guys remember a Sister of Battle was actually caught and tortured by dark eldar in Soulstorm (though it's probably not canon) more so than any other and I think let go as sort of an example for all the rest left over. I like to think that people don't consider soulstorm canon for different reasons. 100 Baneblades!!!
Acts of Faith could be described as the unit pushing itself to the limits and beyond for a short while, but they could also be seen as magic.
Like other special rules units might have, for example some IG orders (it's certainly "magic" to make lasguns fire faster, or suddenly make troops shoot better). Ork Waagh could be seen as magic too, and Ghazzy's special Waagh with invulnerable save certainly is. Dark Eldar Power from Pain? Magic. Necron RP? Magic (any advanced enough technology is after all magic to those who don't understand it). BA Sanguinary Priest FNP bubble is surely magic. SM Vanguard Veterans assaulting from Deep Strike - magic. Tyranids are magic from the Hive Mind down.
It mainly all comes down to what do you view as canon. Do you see the codexs as the only canon information or do you think its a mix of books and the codexs? Many of the stories of the army book apart of daemon of chaos(considering the way it is told and the stories within) in my opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt IMO.
I consider codexs like the propaganda of the faction telling you how awesome and invincible the said army is and their history. I view black library novels like the finer details in the propaganda. For example codex grey knights are talking about how incorruptible they are yet when you read their novels they are literally breaking their backs over wondering who is going to be the first to fall since no one has in the grey knights.
Sisters of battle pretty much the same thing you read they are beacons of the emperors light they are pure bla bla bla they don't fall etc. Yet you have Miriael and in the grey knights novel you have the cannoness saying that a sister falling is rare and they don't talk it about it at all. (I consider it like this when I read it that they pretty much kill or keep it on the down low on anyone who knows) I mean in abnett story on Miriael they were freaking out with the governor knowing some of the details.
Another example the chaos codex telling you how awesome and powerful you can be with chaos and all the other stuff you read the novels and you start seeing the issues that the codex don't talk about the gods like to mess with people. If you are not strong good luck to you with chaos and resource issues and all kinds of other stuff.
Everyone has an opinion on what canon is this is what I think on the subject so OP if it makes sense to you in that form then its okay imo.
Is that the same Grey Knights novel that precedes the one where a Grey Knight turns to Khorne, spends months as an Aspiring Champion, and then is welcomed back with open arms?
The same Grey Knights novel that describes a Terminator squad casting Holocaust as if it were a Waagh power?
Chaos Codex has plenty of info about the ones that don't measure up. :p Actually, I don't know if the fluff on Familiars from the 4e codex made into the 6e one or not...
As for Imperial Guard using faith, in several novels, the Tallarns are shown as over-performing due to "fervour" and "belief" on several occasions.
Well in the grey knights novel that was not exactly him his body was hijacked and by the time he fought off the possession the daemon was you know doing khorne things with his body in the mean time. Personally I don't like grey knight fluff and stories in general.
I just read the trilogy since I had nothing else to read during that time. XD
Scarey Nerd wrote: I can't remember the rules on what you can say on here, but... If Slaanesh captured them? Well, have you seen A Serbian Film?
Just when I'd finally forgotten about that film, I'd say they'd be lucky if that's all that happened. Other groups would probably do the usual with them experiments, torture and sacrifice, thought they'd probably consider them as a better sacrifice.
Lynata wrote: Don't get me wrong, here - I am disapproving of these deviant portrayals you are referring to. But at the same time I guess I have come to realise that we'll just have to accept their existence as a fact, and how they will shape or support other people's perception of the Sisterhood.
I think I'll never cease to express my disappointment when some writer "does it wrong", even though I know that, with the way how 40k fluff works, there is no "wrong" to begin with.
I suppose what I'm actually trying to say is that it's of no use debating this when the one you are talking to already has made up their mind. The most you can achieve is to stress the point that this isn't what the GW core studio has written, and that your interpretation of the Sororitas is just as correct as his.
(and yes, I realise this must sound funny, coming from me - given that usually I am the stubborn one when it comes to these topics ... perhaps it's because this time you've already jumped in to take my place )
This sounds right.
The setting is so big that claiming to know "the truth" doesn´t seem correct. I usually go Codex & Background books > Black Library > anything else, but then I think of the Grey Knights Codex or the Necron Codex and, well... I find myself completely ignoring some Codex stuff.......
@Troike ................which is my position in our debate. You are right: according to the Codex, AoF seem caused by a mindset and a hard training, instead of having a supernatural cause. But I am in denial here, because of two reasons:
1) It makes no sense. As Veteran Sergeant said, the fluff is then rather silly. If you throw the biggest bomb you can imagine to a big group of Sisters that are not even wearing their armour, one out of six survive. Reason does not explain that. Magic exists in the setting so there is another explanation available. God protects the nuns, at least in this setting.
2) It would completely dilute the faction for me. Sure, "mindset and hard training". What about Kasrkins? Imperial Stormtroopers? Arbites? What about the soldiers from Krieg? They don´t even have a name. If Chaos is unable to touch the Sisters because their mindset and training, it would be really easy to apply the same training to, say, stormtroopers. Then all Codex: SoB/AA could be reduced to a single line in the stormtroopers entry in the Codex Imperial Guard. It is clearly a feeling shared by many people, including some GW writers, and I think it is the reason (one of them at least) behind the lack of attention given to this faction. But it is not like that! As you said, nobody else have Acts of Faith -> there MUST be something completely different.
In my opinion, there must be something in the ritual that turns Novices into Sisters of Battle. They go to Terra and there is something, perhaps something related with what happened between Alicia Dominica and the Emperor at the end of the Age of Apostasy, that connects them to their god.
Trying to find the name of the ritual I found a post by SisterSydney in this regard:
So the Sisters can get to Ecclesiarch's palace and back. Maybe they do it for purely religious reasons, maybe to do their own, subtler equivalent of Soul Binding -- which raises the intriguing possibility that maybe Novices can't perform Acts of Faith yet.
Yeah that´s my take on it. A Soul Binding equivalent.
1) It makes no sense. As Veteran Sergeant said, the fluff is then rather silly. If you throw the biggest bomb you can imagine to a big group of Sisters that are not even wearing their armour, one out of six survive. Reason does not explain that. Magic exists in the setting so there is another explanation available. God protects the nuns, at least in this setting.
I quoted two good explanations by other posters for AoFs and the Shield of Faith respectively. It's not as unbelievable as you're making out. And again, magic existing does not automatically make it the only explanation for incredible things that happen.
I'd like to draw your attention back the 5E codex's description for AoFs, if I may:
Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible.
The codex agrees with you, in a way! What they do seems impossible, but it's not.
da001 wrote: 2) It would completely dilute the faction for me. Sure, "mindset and hard training".
Well, obviously I disagree. My viewpoiint is that it fits in perfectly with their status as humanity's best soldiers (the Space Marines being counted as post-human for the purposes of that statement). The most intense training, combined with some of the best equipment, with the firmest of beliefs letting mere humans hold their own without magic, superior numbers or physical enhancements, in a universe filled with monsters and sorcery. In regards to magic specifically, I'd say that them not being magical just ups the badassery. It's not some supernatural force making them tough, not something else lifting them up, no, it's them, sheer grit and absolute faith giving them their edge in 40K's brutal warzones.
da001 wrote: What about Kasrkins? Imperial Stormtroopers? Arbites? What about the soldiers from Krieg? They don´t even have a name. If Chaos is unable to touch the Sisters because their mindset and training, it would be really easy to apply the same training to, say, stormtroopers.
I'd say that what sets the Sisters apart is their intense indoctrination and upbrining, as well as their emphasis on religion. Simply put, as well as some of the most hardcore indoctrination around, they, moreso than any others, believe that their god will protect them and grant them the strength to cast down their enemies.
da001 wrote: Then all Codex: SoB/AA could be reduced to a single line in the stormtroopers entry in the Codex Imperial Guard.
By the Emperor, how heretical!
da001 wrote: It is clearly a feeling shared by many people, including some GW writers, and I think it is the reason (one of them at least) behind the lack of attention given to this faction
I'd say the lack of attention is more due to a lack of codex releases, myself. Or just a general lack of enthusiasm for them over Space Marines and IG. Dark Eldar don't get a major amount of coverafge either, from what I've heard.
da001 wrote: They go to Terra and there is something, perhaps something related with what happened between Alicia Dominica and the Emperor at the end of the Age of Apostasy, that connects them to their god.
Doubtful. Dominca got to see the Emperor in the flesh (or what's left of it, anyway). The Novices don't get something quite so major. Besides, we're not even sure what happened when Dominica went in there, it's always been a mystery. Maybe Big E himself told her to go and slap Vandire's gak, maybe she just felt something standing before her god and was at last able to see through Vandire's lies, we don't know.
@Troike: I ran out of arguments some time ago. According to the Codexes, you are right. However, I will still ignore that information, just like I ignore some stuff from other Codexes. I do this when I think that something is missing, and the information as told makes no sense.
I'd say that what sets the Sisters apart is their intense indoctrination and upbrining, as well as their emphasis on religion.
I think there are many worlds in the setting which are able to raise a small force (just some hundreds of thousands) with a training and an emphasis of religion as intense and thorough as anything the Orders can get. And even if the Orders are still better for some reason, the difference in training and religious teaching will not be enough to explain the differences between a Sister of Battle and a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Stormtrooper.
In many ways, I share the faith of the Sisters: I think the Emperor is a god and actively protects them. Or at least that the Sisters´ faith somehow connects them to him. Or that they are soul-bound to him. I don´t know, yet there must be something.
da001 wrote: Then all Codex: SoB/AA could be reduced to a single line in the stormtroopers entry in the Codex Imperial Guard.
By the Emperor, how heretical!
Indeed I am. . I like the Sisters a lot, but my favorite faction is Chaos.
But it is nothing but the truth: if the Sisters are mere humans, and their faith a lie, they will be of no interest to me. Which brings us to the question asked by the OP. "Why would enemy capture sisters of battle and what would they do with them?"
While playing Chaos (Word Bearers), I see the Sisters as a natural enemy, an image in the mirror for those who believe in the Dark Gods. Who other but Lorgar wrote the book that the Sisters hold as the ultimate truth? They are the ones holding a position that was supposed to belong to the Word Bearers. For the sin of believing what the Sisters believe, Lorgar and his sons were severely punished.
A Sister captured alive will be a highly valuable price. And the story of Miriael Sabathiel adds an even more exciting twist: the possibility of showing her the light that hides inside the darkness of Chaos, and get a Champion whose very existence would be a great victory in itself.
What if their faith was false? My Word Bearers will have no interest in them, and neither will I. There are lots of fanatical soldiers in the setting, everywhere.
One last thing: according to that piece of fluff (that appeared in a Codex), the blood of the Sisters provides a protection against Daemons so powerful that the Grey Knights used it when they thought their own protections were not going to be enough. Not my favorite piece of background, but it fits perfectly in my heretical theories.
da001 wrote:If you throw the biggest bomb you can imagine to a big group of Sisters that are not even wearing their armour, one out of six survive. Reason does not explain that.
Sure you can. Maybe the 6th Sister's body was shielded by one or more of the 5 others. Maybe she got knocked down just in time to survive the blast washing over her back (whilst still receiving internal injuries, but not actually dying immediately). Maybe there was a piece of cover not represented on the board. All of this is covered by abstraction - just apply a bit of creativity, think of the many things that can happen on a battlefield, and you're there! Surviving a safe does not mean not being injured at all - just like being "killed" by not doing so must not automatically mean the character is actually dead. There's a lot of wiggle room in-between.
And it's not like a whole lot of armies do not have similar mechanics. In fact, the Blood Angels' Blood Chalice seems to function in much a similar way, with nearby Marines hearing the voice of their Primarch in their heads and being "urged to greater glory" ... so they get Furious Charge and FNP. I'd say this is another example of faith, just that this one doesn't work via religion. Unless, of course, one would interpret the Marine Chapters' rites as a religion of their own, but now we're delving into semantics.
da001 wrote:I think there are many worlds in the setting which are able to raise a small force (just some hundreds of thousands) with a training and an emphasis of religion as intense and thorough as anything the Orders can get.
Possibly. And why not? Even the Daughters of the Emperor started out as nothing but a small cult on some backwater Agriworld.
Whatever else there is simply doesn't have its own codex.
da001 wrote:And even if the Orders are still better for some reason, the difference in training and religious teaching will not be enough to explain the differences between a Sister of Battle and a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Stormtrooper.
This you need to explain.
The lifestyle alone - being surrounded by people who aren't quite as zealous instead of shutting yourself off from the outer world in some isolated convent - is bound to have a major effect on your faith and character.
That's not to say that there may not be some individuals who might stand out from the others and are just as fanatical - but the codices are there to reflect the standards, the average individual of that one organisation. Everything else is special characters.
For example, how would you explain Commissar Yarrick pulling off a Celestine on a roll of 3+ thanks to his "Iron Will" trait?
The "good" thing is that the franchise is intentionally open to deviant interpretations. As much as Troike and myself think that it would devalue the Adepta Sororitas, it's not as if licensed products would not support your preferred interpretation at all. FFG's Blood of Martyrs, for example, has them clearly use divine magic, in quite impressive ways.
It all comes down to personal preferences.
da001 wrote:One last thing: according to that piece of fluff (that appeared in a Codex), the blood of the Sisters provides a protection against Daemons so powerful that the Grey Knights used it when they thought their own protections were not going to be enough. Not my favorite piece of background, but it fits perfectly in my heretical theories.
The original text mentioned that the GKs needed "the blood of innocents" - implying that the Sisters are not the only possible source of it, but simply one option, and one that was at hand at the time. How I am perceiving this event, this "innocence" is referring to their spiritual purity, and since the Sisters were indoctrinated from infancy, a lot of them (perhaps excluding some veterans who have "seen more") are likely to be almost naively infertile when it comes to how bad and twisted life in the Imperium actually is, for the Sisters see only black and white, rather than the many shades of grey that exist.
And if we consider that in this setting, blood seems to resonate with a piece of the soul of its former owner (making it such a potent paraphernalia in Sorcery), and that psychic powers including daemonic rituals utilise the Warp which reacts to souls, I can see how someone could've come up with the idea to use one to block the other.
Or maybe this was just superstition and the GK's would not have actually needed it after all.
Lynata wrote:For example, how would you explain Commissar Yarrick pulling off a Celestine on a roll of 3+ thanks to his "Iron Will" trait?
Easy. Orks. Orks psychic field make whatever a collected group of individuals believe in, fact. Another case of faith=fact if I may say. Loads of Orks believe Yarrick to be "Da Ooman", immortal. Ergo, he is.
The Waaagh-field is a psychic effect and the Orks are telepathically linked by the nature of their genes. Acts of Faith, on the other hand, are strictly non-psychic.
Also, wouldn't this Waaagh-field exist only where there are Orks, too?
Lynata wrote: The Waaagh-field is a psychic effect and the Orks are telepathically linked by the nature of their genes. Acts of Faith, on the other hand, are strictly non-psychic.
Also, wouldn't this Waaagh-field exist only where there are Orks, too?
Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...
Scarey Nerd wrote: I did have an image of the Sisters being paraded around in grotesque bridal outfits as they were originally the Brides of the Emperor. I rather think that at least Slaanesh would find it hilarious to make them his brides instead.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...
If you prefer to regard them this way - your choice.
GW has made it clear in their out-of-universe rules that they are not, though.
Feel free to disregard it, just know that "we" are not making stuff up out of thin air.
da001 wrote: And even if the Orders are still better for some reason, the difference in training and religious teaching will not be enough to explain the differences between a Sister of Battle and a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Stormtrooper.
To expand just a tiny bit on what Lynata said, one of these groups lives in a convent, the other lives in a barracks or a starship.
da001 wrote: Or at least that the Sisters´ faith somehow connects them to him.
Now, this I'm more open to. The incredible faith of the Sisters is probably maiking quite an impression in the warp. Though whether all of that energy is going to Big E, we don't know.
da001 wrote: While playing Chaos (Word Bearers), I see the Sisters as a natural enemy, an image in the mirror for those who believe in the Dark Gods.
I feel the same way! They are, indeed, very natural enemies.
da001 wrote: Who other but Lorgar wrote the book that the Sisters hold as the ultimate truth?
Not necessarily. As I understand, the 2E Sisters codex talks about the Ecclesiarchy arising from a cult called Temple of The Saviour Emperor that managed to grow enough to absorb or destroy most other cults, eventually coalescing into the Ecclesiarchy. So the Ecclesiarchy's dogma isn't necessarily just Lorgar-created.
da001 wrote: What if their faith was false? My Word Bearers will have no interest in them, and neither will I. There are lots of fanatical soldiers in the setting, everywhere.
I don't know. Magical or not, they'd still be very high-status targets. They're insanely devoted to the god that the Word Bearers left, fight for the church that worships him, and have a reputation for actively stamping out heresy. The Sisters are doing plenty to get the attention of the Word Bearers, magical or no.
There's also the question of whether the Word Bearers would even know just how the Sisters do the things that they do. They might just see them as the belief-fuelled feats that they are, assuming they do not view the Emperor as divine. This would actually be quite amusing, in a way, as the Sisters do see it as their God empowering and protecting them.
Lynata wrote: instead of shutting yourself off from the outer world in some isolated convent
You know, I can't help but think of Sisters as a relgious version of "basement-dwellers", sometimes.
The Church of the Saviour Emperor was the belief that spread from the Crusade Fleets, so yeah, it's Lorgar's book they arose from - Pre-heretic Lorgar, I will add.
The other side, the Confederacy of Light, were more spontaneous and originally probably a Tzeentchian cult. They were wiped out though, and the second Confederacy was inspired by Thor pretty much from scratch.
Troike wrote:Not necessarily. As I understand, the 2E Sisters codex talks about the Ecclesiarchy arising from a cult called Temple of The Saviour Emperor that managed to grow enough to absorb or destroy most other cults, eventually coalescing into the Ecclesiarchy. So the Ecclesiarchy's dogma isn't necessarily just Lorgar-created.
Yup. I too am not subscribing to this idea of the Sisters of Battle being subjected to yet another episode of getting d**kslapped by the Marines just because some random Black Library novel author thinks it'd be a cool idea if their faith was started by a Primarch.
Cults worshipping the Emperor as a god sprang up all across the Imperium - without any connection to each other (and thus a certain book that Lorgar supposedly wrote) whatsoever, evidenced by the simple fact that they all followed different religious doctrines and dogma. Hence the holy wars, during which the various movements clashed with one another, either eradicating or absorbing what, in their eyes, was a bunch of heretics. The winner of this was the Temple of The Saviour Emperor, started on Terra by a man named Fatidicus, who was originally an officer of the military serving in the defence of the Imperial Palace. The Temple having the backing of the military as well as being centred on Terra itself was a huge boost to its influence, explaining how it was able to simply overpower rival religious groups.
Perhaps whatever Lorgar founded was amongst those rival groups, though I find it far more likely that these groups were eradicated by the Inquisition simply because that book was written by a traitor. And I highly doubt that Lorgar was so unselfish that he forgot to put his name on the cover - especially considering how his name would have helped spreading it before the Heresy.
Troike wrote:I don't know. Magical or not, they'd still be very high-status targets. They're insanely devoted to the god that the Word Bearers left, fight for the church that worships him, and have a reputation for actively stamping out heresy. The Sisters are doing plenty to get the attention of the Word Bearers, magical or no.
Indeed. What exactly does the background of this faith matter when it'd have zero influence on how these factions perceive each other?
Troike wrote:You know, I can't help but think of Sisters as a relgious version of "basement-dwellers", sometimes.
How do you think the Orders Dialogous operate?
Furyou Miko wrote:The Church of the Saviour Emperor was the belief that spread from the Crusade Fleets, so yeah, it's Lorgar's book they arose from - Pre-heretic Lorgar, I will add.
The Temple of the Saviour Emperor was not founded until after the Horus Heresy, though. Your suggestion would necessitate that Fatidicus willingly adopted the beliefs of a known traitor to the Emperor, at a point in time at which the Emperor was already dead.
Does not compute.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...
If you prefer to regard them this way - your choice.
GW has made it clear in their out-of-universe rules that they are not, though.
Feel free to disregard it, just know that "we" are not making stuff up out of thin air.
No need to go on the offensive. I said 'maybe'. Just speculating.
Ah, just looked at the 6E 'dex's description for Shield of Faith that I posted earlier ITT, and it actually says something very relevant to the debate about SoF:
The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers.
Note how it says that it's just them shrugging off wounds. Not getting blown to bits, or shot in the head, just pushing past a wound.
Please excuse this if it is too much, but don't you think the DE and/or Chaos would be clever enough to basically "farm" torture victims by forcing the first few to breed? Eventually, there could be a hive city-sized POW camp that be replenished by the denizens as their captors continue to reap victims, and occasionally enlist a few extra cultists? Sounds fitting in the 40k environment.
Or are DE/chaos just too whimsical and short-lived in their actions to devise such a plot (perhaps Tzeentch could take up the task)?
Seems like a question for its own thread - but on a hunch I'd say the Dark Eldar are too focused on raiding as a sport. Also, to their wicked idea of fun, torturing "fresh" victims probably feels more fulfilling than toying with someone who is already broken due to growing up in some dark dungeron. This might even affect how long they "last" as a toy, or how much worth they are as a sacrifice to She Who Thirsts.
The forces of Chaos, on the other hand, have their own worlds and warbands with uncounted millions of devoted slaves by default. I'm sure some of them may be descendents of prisoners, but rather purely by accident rather than "breeding". All those cultists are already multiplying on their own, after all. The only exception I could think of would be some Slaaneshi cult who would do this for fun, rather than because they want the children.
I got it!!!! The very torture fit enough to crush even the conditioned mind of a battle sister! Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right
Kosake wrote: Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right
A flamer or heavy flamer makes short work of the print-out. Not to mention the idiot who tried to distract the Sisters from their holy duty. :-)
Kosake wrote: Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right
A flamer or heavy flamer makes short work of the print-out. Not to mention the idiot who tried to distract the Sisters from their holy duty. :-)
It could be a theological dispute and masked as a "find the heretic" question. Only by carefull examination is it possible to find out, who of the disputants a heretic is. But it is all a trap, since ALL of them are heretics and by accepting one or the other as being right, the offending sister will do heresy as well! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
@Troike, @Lynata: first, just a little unrelated thing concerning GKs:
Spoiler:
"The original text mentioned that the GKs needed "the blood of innocents" "
This rings a bell. There is a short story by Ben Counter called "Sacrifice", published at the same time that Codex: GK. It is about how the protections for the GK are made. It involves human sacrifices, and it is needed that they are "innocents". The blood of the innocents is regarded as an effective protection against the Warp. Also, there is a type of magic called "blood magic" that involves the use of blood for making "Sigils", rune-like wards. It is becoming popular thanks to Supernatural, but it is taken from mythology / anthropology. Here is the entry for "sigils" from the Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigil_(magic)
These sigils are the Aegis, or part of it. So the Grey Knights are really dark when you look at them, and Malcador was a sorcerer of the worst kind.
That being said, I am stepping out of this debate. The background clearly hints that I am wrong, and I am not discussing it. Yet I will ignore it, for the reasons given. I hope more stuff is written on the matter by GW... Since then, you won.
da001 wrote:That being said, I am stepping out of this debate. The background clearly hints that I am wrong, and I am not discussing it. Yet I will ignore it, for the reasons given. I hope more stuff is written on the matter by GW... Since then, you won.
You can't be "wrong" as all sources and interpretations are equally valid, and there is quite a lot of licensed material supporting yours as well (Dark Heresy, Dawn of War, ...). For better or worse, that's the way the franchise works. The only thing that might matter at all is that we know where a certain version originates from, as some people subjectively select what idea they subscribe to based on the source.
Also, thank you for this excerpt!
PS: Dammit, everytime I see one of Miko's "avatar posts" I feel the need to exalt it just for the style, but I fear I may have done so too often already...
Don't worry, da001, for every secret the Ordo Chronos reveals, the Ordo Redacto destroys another piece of priceless history (love the fact they have minor ordo fluff in the C:I book).
Don't worry, Linata, every time you get too exalt-happy, just remember I'm more style than substance.
Also, thank you for this excerpt! PS: Dammit, everytime I see one of Miko's "avatar posts" I feel the need to exalt it just for the style, but I fear I may have done so too often already...
Lynata wrote: That's alright, Sister - it happens to the best of us (perhaps some novel authors as well?).
Twenty lashes with the scoriada, ten Ave Dominicas, and no dinner today.
Not helping with my guesses at one of your interests. Let me just put it this way you are german, you like cyberpunk and you said you're giving her lashes. I think you have a leather fetish ;P. I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.
So yeah as I said before the dark eldar tortured sisters horribly in soulstorm and one received a lot more torture to be left as an example for everybody else. Of course this is the game that made sisters have space magic, included 'metal boxes' (to be fair space marine designs aren't often that elegant though human constructs are fairly practical and do the job) and 100 baneblades being lost. I'll never get over the 100 baneblades being lost no matter how much 4chan seems to like soulstorm's IG general and that was one of my favorite factions. In current times to have 3 on the field is a day to behold but even for a forgeworld and an entire star system 100 baneblades being just lost should equal execution for the leadership on the spot if that's even possible to have that many in the first place over such a small area. Sorry for the rant.
I'd imagine this thread's very title opened up a can of worms with just the whole corrupting 'sisters' thing. 'Good' girls turning 'bad' and this isn't even a crappy p*rn made by d-bags. I suppose they could torture them but they basically get tortured by their order a bit I'd imagine.
Perhaps if they captured a sister they could torture her and kill her gruesomely as an example to other sisters before another battle. Although that'd probably just make them fight harder. It might make them more reckless though. I could imagine it'd scare the crap out of some guardsmen to see fellows being horribly mutilated by their enemies before a battle. Perhaps they could kill sisters and put insignias on her or try to possess them with daemons.
What seems likely to me is to keep them for a sacrifice to the chaos gods. Something about killing innocents or good and faithful soldiers of the emperor probably gets the chaos gods excited in their nether regions.
Lynata wrote: The Waaagh-field is a psychic effect and the Orks are telepathically linked by the nature of their genes. Acts of Faith, on the other hand, are strictly non-psychic.
Also, wouldn't this Waaagh-field exist only where there are Orks, too?
Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...
Acts of Faith are defined as being specifically non-psychic in origin.
Not helping with my guesses at one of your interests. Let me just put it this way you are german, you like cyberpunk and you said you're giving her lashes. I think you have a leather fetish ;P. I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.
You... don't understand how old-school Catholic Schools, or the Sisters of Battle, work... do you?
I mean, there's a *reason* that Catholic School imagery resonates so much in the BDSM scene, is because there was a whole lot of corporal mortification going on without there being any of the kinky fun-times angles. The fetish aspects arose out of the reality.
I got it!!!! The very torture fit enough to crush even the conditioned mind of a battle sister! Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right
That's what the Orders Dialoguous are for. They'll have it sorted out "soon".
Not helping with my guesses at one of your interests. Let me just put it this way you are german, you like cyberpunk and you said you're giving her lashes. I think you have a leather fetish ;P. I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.
You... don't understand how old-school Catholic Schools, or the Sisters of Battle, work... do you?
I mean, there's a *reason* that Catholic School imagery resonates so much in the BDSM scene, is because there was a whole lot of corporal mortification going on without there being any of the kinky fun-times angles. The fetish aspects arose out of the reality.
It was kind of a joke actually. I realize it's for punishment but I didn't know the details.
Orks would either make them walk the plank to the pit full of hungry squigs; or make them fight grots in pit fight, probably with bare fists or lousy weapons like sticks and cattle prods (to make the squishy grots&girls last longer).
Tau would lock them in comfortable padded-wall cells/prison blocks and bore them with day after day odf tolerance&communism propoganda.
Necrons... some alien experiments, with dissecting and stuff, reminiscent of alien abductions; or have them locked in stasis as statues to add to more extravagant Phaeron's collections.
Slaanesh dudes would torment/senualy please them trying to break their will and loualty and start liking it (not as hard as you might think, since most sororita orders have habbit of self-flagilation already and are extremely frustrated sexually);
Tzeench dudes would again lock them up and try to mindfuk them with Hannibal-style talks; trying to make them belive that emperor is chaos or other such BS just for lilz.
Khorne dudes would force them to gladiatorial fights or such.
Dark eldars>>slaanesh;
eldars would not bother.
flamingkillamajig wrote:I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.
Phht, please - this is the internet. I fully expect half of dakka to be perverts.
Psienesis wrote:You... don't understand how old-school Catholic Schools, or the Sisters of Battle, work... do you?
I mean, there's a *reason* that Catholic School imagery resonates so much in the BDSM scene, is because there was a whole lot of corporal mortification going on without there being any of the kinky fun-times angles. The fetish aspects arose out of the reality.
And Wh40k seems quite happy to build upon this "nunsploitation" aspect with certain pieces of fluff.
That being said, morally I don't really see how this should be any more wrong than the general glorification of violence and murder that is celebrated by the franchise.
flamingkillamajig wrote:I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.
Phht, please - this is the internet. I fully expect half of dakka to be perverts.
At least we're not 4chan ;P. I think anybody could do better than that though.
I'm a pervert yes but honestly the BDSM stuff is a little much for me. I probably wouldn't give up a chance to 'get it on' if I had to do some of that probably but I think I have some limits. I find it weird I'm considered a perv considering I'm not really into that as compared to some.
This is how I feel when some people talk to me.
"Dude you're a pervert and you have a problem. Excuse me one second." *gets strung up from the ceiling in a leather mask while being whipped*
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Anyway if we're beyond that little topic yeah I think sisters would be used for sacrifices to the dark gods. Something suitably horrific and painful before decorating something heretical. Possibly with some sort of horrible heresy like a halo with the 8 pointed star above their head instead of a halo and possibly something that insults the idea of the golden throne or give them a heretical version of angel's wings. Anyway loads and loads of heresy. That is all!
The things to remember about the BDSM scene are thus;
1) 50 Shades of Grey is a horrible representation and should be burned before it destroys any more potential D/s relationships.
2) There is no such thing as a domme or a sub with no limits.
3) 50 Shades of Grey is a horrible representation that twists a beautiful thing into Twilight-level abusive gak, and should be burned.
4) BDSM is mostly not about sex.
5) 50 Shades of Grey is a horrible book and should be burned just for the writing quality.
6) BDSM has a keyphrase: Safe, Sane and Consensual. If it's not safe, it's not good BDSM. If it's not sane, it's not good BDSM. If it's not Consenual, it's abuse and worse, and should be reported to the police.
I would reiterate that 50 Shades should be burned, but I think I might be belabouring the point.
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Back on topic, yes, sacrifices. Torture, all that nasty stuff that's really nothing like the other thing we're discussing. Shave their heads and brand a Chaos Mark into their scalps, play Rick Astley on a loop, that sort of thing.
Furyou Miko wrote: The things to remember about the BDSM scene are thus;
1) 50 Shades of Grey is a horrible representation and should be burned before it destroys any more potential D/s relationships.
2) There is no such thing as a domme or a sub with no limits.
3) 50 Shades of Grey is a horrible representation that twists a beautiful thing into Twilight-level abusive gak, and should be burned.
4) BDSM is mostly not about sex.
5) 50 Shades of Grey is a horrible book and should be burned just for the writing quality.
6) BDSM has a keyphrase: Safe, Sane and Consensual. If it's not safe, it's not good BDSM. If it's not sane, it's not good BDSM. If it's not Consenual, it's abuse and worse, and should be reported to the police.
I would reiterate that 50 Shades should be burned, but I think I might be belabouring the point.
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Back on topic, yes, sacrifices. Torture, all that nasty stuff that's really nothing like the other thing we're discussing. Shave their heads and brand a Chaos Mark into their scalps, play Rick Astley on a loop, that sort of thing.
Actually I don't have any personal experience with the BDSM thing. I have seen stuff in shows which is probably different from the truth much like pornos and late night comedy shows are fake (I've been to one and notice how for no reason the crowd's laughter comes in with 2 waves like an aftershock to an earthquake. I mean we've all had those moments of laughter....not.).
Anyway as far as BDSM goes the most I've seen actually wasn't from that. I don't know if you're aware of this web comic but have you ever heard of SpoonyOne and seen some of his stuff on 'That Guy with the Glasses'? I knew about him before that time but he did something on phantasmagoria 2 and there was a scene with Curtis being hung from a ceiling with chains. On the topic of SpoonyOne I don't really watch his stuff anymore. He doesn't really do anything anymore last I checked. It's a shame my favorite review he did was of 'The Thing' PC game. I was first aware of Spoony when a friend showed me his review of D&D dragonstrike the first time around before he edited and made it crappier in my opinion. Also everybody was excited about his final fantasy 8 review and fanboys hated him. Not going to ruin it for the most part but 'filthy multi-tasking quistis' is pretty freaking awesome.
Sorry now I'm really going off topic. Anyway torture, mayhem, destruction and puppies. The sisters will get one of these from chaos and it won't be puppies unless they have tentacles or spread STD's through hugs.
Interestingly enough... 50 Shades of Grey began life as a Twilight fan-fic. No kidding. It really did.
And while I'm not saying that the Sisters of Battle are a direct BDSM imagery or element, what I am saying is that a very large number of the various kinds of corporal punishments that show up in "standard" (or, as is often called, "English") BDSM were part and parcel to life in Catholic (and other religious) schools well into the 20th century (iirc, some districts/diocese/whatever did not ban the use of the tawse or the cane until the 1970s and 80s). It is these sorts of things that the GW writers are making allusions to in their writings of the harsh lifestyle of the Sisterhood. It's like a 1950s Scottish Catholic Girls' School... in Space.
would make the event horizon scene look like a picnic 
.